This is probably going to turn out to be a stupid idea like the comedic umbrella-plane you see among the old timey movie clips showing failed expirimental aircraft.........the question might also have been asked before.....but here goes:

I wonder if it's possible to create a vehicle that can hover in middair by using the right combination of spinning weights/gyroscopes? By the way- I'm not talking about lift created by the manipulation of air, I mean lift created by the manipulation of weight.

Furthermore, I wonder if it's possible to steer or create directional momentum by adjusting the RPM of different weights (adusting the amount of counter balance)?

short answer: no

longer answer: in order to oppose the force of gravity, you would have to create a counter balancing force. a gyro/spinning weights (unless you launched the weights downward) would just jostle you around, but you would be exerting no net force to counter gravity, unless you push some air down with your jostling.

I'm not entirely sure but I think they use a system like that instead of tail rotors on certain helicopters.

you aren't going to get lift out of it though. thats my main point. you can use it to steady something (jostle), but if it has no net force on the air, you are not going anywhere =]

Stryder, you may be thinking of the ducted-fan/Coanda-effect MD-520N NOTAR (http://www.kulikovair.com/Notar.htm).

domesticated om, you may want to revisit the 1st Law of Thermodynamics (http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/thermo1f.html)/ Newton's 1st Law (http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/ConservationofMomentum.html), as cato was inferring. These are part of our basic understanding of our non-chaotic universe.

Flywheels and gyroscopics do provide energy storage (that's how a helicopter can land unpowered) and stability (or precessionary instability) but not directional thrust- That requires reaction upon something other than the vehicle being propelled. This is not to say you're thought-experiment is not worthwhile- It's a great way to learn, and not nearly so ridiculous as the hopping "umbrella-plane", which attempted to aerodynamically exploit the hydrodynamic propulsion mastered by the jellyfish.

iT WAS DISPLAYED in public, on tv, by an old man....

on the floor was some mass of metal in the form of a bar.. with on the end, a form of spinning gyroscope....

two points are important...

1) the man is old.. and weak.. and cannot lift that weight... when its not spinning.
2) on demonstration.. when on and spining, he can grab it and lift it over his head, and then drop it back down again.

somehow, he stated he was not sure. the energy stored in the gyroscope was transferred to the motion which was given to the gyroscope... mystery.

I saw it myself, but unfortuanately i do not remember the source or have any links.

HE WAS DEMONSTRATING IT, since he couldnt figure it out... in hopes of inspiring someone like you to figure it out...

it might allow us to use a giant massive gyroscopeS within the ship.. and use its emergy by simply applying a small tiny rocket to the side we want to repel from.

-MT

-MT

Mosheh, things like that are trivial to do with simple stage magic. Especially with the technology magicians have available today. Just look at the things that professional magicians do in front of live audiences, admitting that it's just a trick and daring us to figure it out. I think one of them made an entire building disappear.

>> in hopes of inspiring someone like you to figure it out.


well as long as y'all say it is impossible.... it will remain that way for you

I know it is possible, and rather simple... insects use the principles all the time

Just think.... Can you swim in space ??????

PS... sorry I will not elaborate any further... except to say
IT IS POSSIBLE.... and it does not defy newton's law

MT,
I believe your thinking of Laithewait (spelling?). He didn't do it on tv though, it was done before some royal academy or other in England in a private lecture, iirc. He is better known for Maglev trains i believe. He had some ideas on gyroscopic propulsion. Most consider his ideas wrong.

"sorry I will not elaborate any further... except to say
IT IS POSSIBLE.... and it does not defy newton's law"

Then you have offered nothing.

well, atleast URI has a good attitude...


i saw it myself.. he was not a magician.. he was an engineer.. who specialized in gyroscopes... and he tried to figure it out.. but failed.. and as a very old man.. he demonstrated it.. it was on some science show...

he wasnt a magician.

it should really be very simple... we have a spinning wheel.

with say masses, along the rim.. spinning fast.

if it were possible to cause the mass to curve inward and move a shorter distance while crossing the bottom side, and allow full outward curving motion when moving over the top of the circle.. then we would literally have an inbalance in the forces occurs at each side of a spinning wheel.
this inbalance resulting in directive motion... thrust.

the problem in doing so, as that any means you use to cause the mass to take that shorter motion along the bottom half of the circle, results in an equal amount of downward pressure added to the bottom side... negating the effect.

so there is the dilema... how to cause the change or inbalance in the force occuring at two halves of a spinning mass, or mass in a body and so, generate thrust.

Oh yes... ive given this alot of thought.

one tends to begin imagining wheels within wheels... gyros.. within gyros.. timed and balanced so as to achieve this inbalance in some worthwhile manner..
i have some designs in mind, but lack the machine shop or machine skills.

-MT

if it were possible to cause the mass to curve inward and move a shorter distance while crossing the bottom side, and allow full outward curving motion when moving over the top of the circle.. then we would literally have an imbalance in the forces occurs at each side of a spinning wheel.
this imbalance resulting in directive motion... thrust.

the problem in doing so, as that any means you use to cause the mass to take that shorter motion along the bottom half of the circle, results in an equal amount of downward pressure added to the bottom side... negating the effect.
correct.

so there is the dilema... how to cause the change or imbalance in the force occuring at two halves of a spinning mass, or mass in a body and so, generate thrust.
you can't, your previous statement was correct. as long as you retain the mass, the net force will be zero.

Oh yes... ive given this alot of thought.
keep thinkin'

lets say you are out in space, and have a rock tied to the arm of your space suit. you can throw the rock in any direction, and produce a force that will move yourself. however, if you try to reel in the rock, you will end up meeting at the same place you started from. same idea with the gyros. if they don't push any air in any direction, and you retain the weights, there really isn't any way to produce a net force.

we all know this... but still.. the proof of the possibility, is in the fact that the old man... could lift a 100 lbs over his head as easily as i could lift 10 lbs.

and he did so, with the help of a gyroscope...

-MT

you don't really know what weight he lifted. David Copperfield made the statue of liberty disappear, that does not mean we should just assume it was real. if you can prove it worked, then figure out how it worked. there may have been air displaced by the rapidly spinning gyro, it may not have weighed as much as you thought, or maybe the guys was stronger than you/he thought. there is little reason to assume it broke newtons first law.

it didnt break any laws.... he wasnt a showman... he wasnt doing it for gain.

he was an engineer with a puzzle... in a room of engineers..

thats all i know... i wish i could tell you more.

anyway... i got a dremel.. wonder what i could build with that?

-MT

maybe it would jerk itself up and down, he moved/lifted it when it pulled up, and braced it against his body when it pushed down. the bottom line is: it must have exerted a force on its surroundings to be raised against gravity. either on the air or the old man, short of defying newtons first law that is the only way it could be lifted.

Here Goes, There Is No Way You Can Spin Up A Gyroscope To Mak It Lose Weight, Or Take Off, But, Now Wait For It You Can Change It's Inertia, With The Right Combination Of Rotating Mass And Rpms. You Can Lift A Hundred Lbs. Mass With 5lbs. Of Force, Why?? It's Already Moving, And Inertia Is? Thats Right An Object In Motion Tends To Stay In Motion, And On At Rest Blah Blah Blah. Logical? I Thing So, Now Where Are My Cheetos

Here Goes, There Is No Way You Can Spin Up A Gyroscope To Mak It Lose Weight, Or Take Off, But, Now Wait For It You Can Change It's Inertia, With The Right Combination Of Rotating Mass And Rpms. You Can Lift A Hundred Lbs. Mass With 5lbs. Of Force, Why?? It's Already Moving, And Inertia Is? Thats Right An Object In Motion Tends To Stay In Motion, And On At Rest Blah Blah Blah. Logical? I Thing So, Now Where Are My Cheetos

Why Do You Capitalise Everything You Freaking Dweeb?

Saves Time, Numb Nuts

I know it is possible, and rather simple... insects use the principles all the time
insects use gyroscopes?:confused:
Just think.... Can you swim in space ??????
uh, no. and neither does anything else.

Saves Time, Numb Nuts

How does incorrectly capitalising the first letter of every word save time? It requires a superfluous key press, which is less efficient, NUMB NUTS!

Is iit that you are a bit dim, and capitalise everything, so you don't have to understand grammar, proper nouns, etc? You seem dim, I'd buy that hypothesis.

BTW---- the name of the umbrella aircraft was called the "Pitts Sky Car"

Is it possible to steer or create directional momentum by adjusting the RPM of different weights (adusting the amount of counter balance)?
The initial directionial trajectory after seperation from the centrifugal orbit cannot be changed but the extent of maintaining that same linear trajectory increases with an increase in momentum and decreases with a decrease in momentum.

Hi new here but like this topic. Might i inject this simple thought.....what about useing the pulling force of the directional side to pull in the opposing force of the shorter side.
This can control everything.You control the thrust power with RPM:D

PS. I have drawings and are currently working on my 4th test model. The uses for this would be worth the struggle. If powered by CF force a craft could travel anywhere. under water, in the air, in outerspace, other planets, other galaxies. This is harnessing a law.... the law of the Univerce!

Wow I guess i need to look at how old the coversation is before i try to jump in. Oh well maybe someone will respond.:(

Hi new here but like this topic. Might i inject this simple thought.....what about useing the pulling force of the directional side to pull in the opposing force of the shorter side.You need a net unidirectional force greater than the force of gravity in order to overwhelm it. That is why the OP was urged to study Newton's Laws. They have not been repealed. A rotating mass cannot generate a net unidirectional force, because it is rotating. Transient forces occur during start-up, but they cancel out rather quickly, before they have a chance to perform any meaningful work.

Remember, we call it centrifugal force, from the Latin words meaning "to flee from the center," because that is the direction in which the force operates: a radial direction. If the rotating mass is unbalanced then at any given moment the centrifugal force will also be unbalanced and pulling more strongly in one radial direction. But as the mass rotates the force rotates with it, so over the course of just one single rotation, the force is balanced in all radial directions, e.g. is zero.

I recommend that you study the concept of angular momentum and moment of inertia. It is not a simple matter to study--freshman physics at a place like Caltech, probably second-year anywhere else--and it will help make the forces at work in a rotating mass more understandable.

consider a arm that slides on a pin. balanced at first but if it slides to one side the force pulls the other side in. Now if guided by a track it could then be brought back in at the half way mark and the other end could now slide out pulling the other side in again. Some force must remain on the longer side. the force pushing on the track is in the same direction as the force that pulls the arm out so they both work together minus the smaller forces of the shorter side. Im building one more huge one to prove it once and for all.

If you recall, the Roswell spacecraft may have used high Tesla magnetic fields as the propulsion. It was obvious from the fact that all the metals the workers had got pulled to the craft and watches stopped working. It is a guess that the craft produced equivalent of more than ten million ampere of current.

kmguru"...the Roswell spacecraft..."

whaaaaa? :bugeye: How could there have been an alien spacecraft examined, without the event being closely followed by the dramatic advent of new technologies? Imagine the implications, had a contemporary state-of-the-art aircraft been presented to the Wright Brothers 100 years ago. What you suggest would certainly bring much more significant and irrepressible technology leaps. Such revolutionary knowledge would cause an unprecedented leap in technologies. For me, this has always been the most compelling evidence against theories of secret alien technologies being kept secret by a government that leaks like a sieve.




Dr Roswell: "consider a arm that slides on a pin."

OK. That's easy to visualize.

"balanced at first but if it slides to one side the force pulls the other side in."

By "the force", I assume you mean gravity, once the arm is unbalanced?

"Now if guided by a track it could then be brought back in at the half way mark and the other end could now slide out pulling the other side in again."

Are you describing a see-saw with a moving fulcrum?

"Some force must remain on the longer side. the force pushing on the track is in the same direction as the force that pulls the arm out so they both work together minus the smaller forces of the shorter side."

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I'm trying, but I don't follow you.

kmguru"...the Roswell spacecraft..."

whaaaaa? :bugeye: How could there have been an alien spacecraft examined, without the event being closely followed by the dramatic advent of new technologies?

Perhaps, the magnetic system is difficult to duplicate? That is not because of lack of trying. The Univeristy of Florida (I think) is doing serious research in high Tesla fields. The problem is that we have not made any alloys that can withstand that high field strength.

New Technologies? Perhaps Fiber optic communication, LCD screens and multilayer chips (yet to be fabricated)....

Not that I want to fan the flames or anything, but if the U.S. had found an Alien spacecraft then wouldn't it fairly likely that they would spend a huge amount of money on developing weapons to counter the technologies found in the craft?

Who says they did not? I have friends who held TSC and higher, and do not want to spill the beans...except that they do say some technologies are out of this world....

I'm willing to concede the possibility of that, however you can't expect people to believe you without any evidence.

I'm not, and in this case the absence of evidence really is evidence of absence. Although I've held TSCs, I never encountered alien technology. Significant advances in technology have always been irrepressible and have always become widely evident.

Unless you are a research scientist working for one of those labs or Lockheed Martin...you may not be exposed to advanced technology. I worked for CSC many years ago, and came across some amazing technology (not alien) that is still not public knowledge. Since I can not divulge that...consider them not to exist....either.

As to Alien technology, I doubt it too, since most technologies are fairly easy to understand. An advanced technology will include nano machines, artificial intelligence, polymers and metals bonded inside out, solid alloys with micromachining inside, unique alloys that defies normal assembly...but then these are dificult to reverse engineer in todays technology and hence you will never see....like that StarTrek transparent Aluminum.....

I am a supporter of the centrifuge force idea to proper the vehicle....however I do not want to claim that it is the centrifugal force that will proper the vehicle, rather when a particular type of matter is being accelerated will create a force similar to antigravity. And that is a claim I am making based on theory of Burkhard Heim, which I fully support.

Dr Roswell: "consider a arm that slides on a pin."

OK. That's easy to visualize.

"balanced at first but if it slides to one side the force pulls the other side in."

By "the force", I assume you mean gravity, once the arm is unbalanced? No CF in the direction it slides.

"Now if guided by a track it could then be brought back in at the half way mark and the other end could now slide out pulling the other side in again."

Are you describing a see-saw with a moving fulcrum? No.. but if the arm is spun from the pin and at the end of the arms are wheels that run on a eliptical path or track.. the arm could then be brought back in to start the process on the next rotation. Like an out of ballance wheel.. always heavier on the same side.

"Some force must remain on the longer side. the force pushing on the track is in the same direction as the force that pulls the arm out so they both work together minus the smaller forces of the shorter side."

A picture is worth so much more:cool:
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Dr Roswell: "consider a arm that slides on a pin."

OK. That's easy to visualize.

"balanced at first but if it slides to one side the force pulls the other side in."

By "the force", I assume you mean gravity, once the arm is unbalanced? No CF in the direction it slides.

"Now if guided by a track it could then be brought back in at the half way mark and the other end could now slide out pulling the other side in again."

Are you describing a see-saw with a moving fulcrum? No.. but if the arm is spun from the pin and at the end of the arms are wheels that run on a eliptical path or track.. the arm could then be brought back in to start the process on the next rotation. Like an out of ballance wheel.. always heavier on the same side.

"Some force must remain on the longer side. the force pushing on the track is in the same direction as the force that pulls the arm out so they both work together minus the smaller forces of the shorter side."

A picture is worth so much more:cool:
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A picture won't get around that inside an enclosed craft, all forces will resolve and cancel each other out. You might get the thing to oscillate, but you won't be able to counter the effects of a force acting in a continuous direction (ie Gravity), nor supply force in a continuous direction to provide an acceleration in free space.

Sorry dude, but you are blowing smoke up your own ass.