Hello all,

We have recently been trialling a system whereby any user can give Infraction points to other users who behave inappropriately on sciforums, in terms of breaching mutually-agreed standards of conduct.

Currently, certain numbers of points are allocated for certain "offences", including insulting other members, posting advertising spam, using language considered "inappropriate" and so on. Infraction points expire after 10 days. If anybody gets 20 points within a 10 day period, they are automatically suspended from posting for a period of 3 days.

This system has come in for some criticism, both from moderators and other users. We quickly found that moderators had to "reverse" a number of infractions handed out unfairly by other members. The moderators are now keeping an eye on infractions, and action can be taken against members who abuse their power to hand out infractions.

Now that users are reasonably familiar with the system, we would like to put it to a general vote.

If members choose to abolish the infraction system, we will return to the previous system of bans being decided and handed out solely by moderators and admininstrators, with users having no direct input or control.

The poll will remain open for 7 days, and we will abide by the majority vote.

At this stage, we are merely voting on whether to abolish the infraction system completely, or to retain it. If you wish to retain the system but suggest possible changes, please do so. We do not guarantee that any suggested changes will be implemented, however. That will require further discussion if users vote to retain the infraction system.

the mods just reverse the infractions....whenever they please...so its all useless.

I voted to abstain so my biased opinion doesn't affect the numbers.

I would rather only moderators and above have the option.

You are due a vote just like any other forum member. Just because you're a mod doesn't mean you give up your user rights.


As for me.
I vote no.
I have a million and one arguments for voting no and to persuade others to vote no as well, but I doubt that many will vote any other way.
Perhaps I'll come back with an empassioned plea should circumstances require it.

You are due a vote just like any other forum member. Just because you're a mod doesn't mean you give up your user rights.

Well I do think I have the right to vote "no," however this forum isn't as busy as I would like for me to cast my vote. We'll probably get 20 votes or so within these 7 days that the poll is up.. so one vote could mean a lot.

It's just my choice and I am fine with it. I stated that I would like to keep the infraction system and only allow moderators to use it, but I think it's up to the regular members decide our direction.

Retain, but only if users are not allowed to deem that ordinary users infract, only with regard to the moderators, and without the reversals.

As with ordinary democracy, effect the right to vote out of office.

Respect for authority would then have to earned by best example.

but only if users are not allowed to deem that ordinary users infract, only with regard to the moderators, and without the reversals.

What the hell did you say?

Oh.
I get it.
You're saying that infractions are only to be given to the moderators...
That's an incredibly stupid idea.
No surprise it comes from the King of Spite.

As with ordinary democracy, effect the right to vote out of office.

Sauna.
We all know you have this huge chip on your shoulder.
But voting mods out of office is another matter altogether.

If you have any specific complaints about moderation why don't you start a thread? Rather than vague and meaningless innuendos?

Respect for authority would then have to earned by best example.

In that thread, perhaps you could define what you think is the horizon of 'authority'.
I suspect that you feel as Tor does that any time a moderator speaks he is exhibiting authority.

Anyway. That's off-topic for this thread.
Perhaps you care to begin another?

I voted to retain, with possible changes, (details in thread) exactly as the Poll invited.

Authority is of course the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes, the right to control, command, or determine, a power or right delegated or given:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Authority

I voted to retain, with possible changes, (details in thread) exactly as the Poll invited.

Yes.
Quite right on that.
I belatedly realized what your first sentence meant.
So. I do apologize on that.
I edited that part into my post. But didn't delete the rest.

I still maintain that the idea is stupid. But that's another matter altogether.

As to 'authority'.
...
No.
That's another topic and I won't get into it in here.

its not like I want the infraction to go away...but its just the mods keep on reversing infractions I do...which are justified...so its all useless

`
Abolish it and return to moderators deciding bans alone.

The Infraction system is redundant.

There is already a report button by which to bring to the attention of the "authorities" anything which is deemed improper by the membership.

Trouble is that there are no positive sanctions in this system.

the only reason we really need it is to stop spammers, anything else can be reported to the mods and dealt with.

actually, i want to change my vote now.

Keep it but modify the nanny option - "Inappropriate Language" :rolleyes: - so that we can penalise posts that are "Boring, Too Long or Overly Convoluted".

Nah, only kidding. Bin it, it's rubbish.
the only reason we really need it is to stop spammers
Apart from that bit. Can we just keep that bit?

I believe moderators ought to be victim of user infractions at a lower-level of severity. Otherwise, I am fine with the continuation of user infractions.

Retain it, but change the God-awful icon.

I voted to abolish.

Reason being that each time I see someone with an infraction and it did not really seem fair, I then have to investigate why it was given. To do that, I have to PM the infraction giver and attempt to get a reason as to why the infraction was given. I feel as though I am the parent questioning the child in some instances and I really don't like having to grill fellow forum members about why they felt an infraction was needed and given.

This is especially the case where infractions are given reasons of personal dislike or due to bias against a certain member.

If someone feels something is wrong with a post, click on the report button or PM a moderator with their complaint. If the member feels that a moderator is the problem in the forum that person happens to moderate, then either start up a thread in site feedback or PM another moderator with your concerns or a member of the admin staff. If it is a moderator posting in another forum (aside from the one they are moderating) and they do something wrong, then report them as you would with anyone else. This should occur now anyway, even with the infraction system in place, but some do take advantage of it and go on what appear to be infraction giving sprees and that is not what the system was designed for.

That is my personal opinion on this matter. I am sure there will be many voices in dissent to what I have said, and so be it. But that is how I feel about it.

... then have to investigate why it was given. To do that, I have to PM the infraction giver and attempt to get a reason as to why the infraction was given.

Why not then insist that reasons be written already with infractions declared? With no valid reason annul, end of story, a mere technical triviality..



I feel as though I am the parent questioning the child in some instances and I really don't like having to grill fellow forum members about why they felt an infraction was needed and given.


If not fit to powder the bottoms of babies alive before you were born, quit, because patronisation is in essence what it is. There is no getting way from that, nor be surprised if some wander off, reluctant to stoop so far as to let their bottoms be powdered by some so immature.



This is especially the case where infractions are given reasons of personal dislike or due to bias against a certain member.

Nor the hope to escape from that.

Let he or she blessed with absolute equanimity cast the first stone, and then may we kneel to pray to their glory.


If someone feels something is wrong with a post, click on the report button or PM a moderator with their complaint.

And when a moderator who presumes to lecture us on etiquette fails to respond with as much as a polite PM in return, what then?

That at least is to be said for the empowerment: It amends deliberate ignorance.

Keep it but modify the nanny option - "Inappropriate Language" :rolleyes: - so that we can penalise posts that are "Boring, Too Long or Overly Convoluted".
^ ;)

I think it should be kept - I have found that mods, for whatever reason, do not respond to reports .... thus I have experience of it tightening up the looseness of threads - for instance if someone has a chip on their shoulder tends not to go out for an all out mud slinging match after receiving one or two infractions (and even then, they only score maybe 2-7 infraction points, so its not like they actually get banned) - the result is that they actually work more in line with the format of debate or they just don't bother with the attempt to sabotage one's posts - even the anticipation of receiving an infraction is sufficient to make many an ad hommer exhibit self control

The only problem is that if someone gets an infraction, even a two pointer, they tend to take it as a personal offense, and use the infraction system to get even - I recommend that if a person abuses the infraction system (posts 4 or more infractions that have been reversed within one week) they should score 19 infraction points - hopefully this would lighten the mod's workload a bit

I feel that the difference between having and not having an infraction system is the difference between having and not having an atmosphere civil enough for intelligent discussion (Sciforums - flame grilled discussion???)

I guess it could be changed so that if an infraction is "reversed" the person that gave the infraction thats reversed, gets the points instead. That would certainly deal with those that abuse the system.

As for voting, I'm neither this way or that.

Some people have to be dealt with in a fair way and the problem with having moderators make the decision is they can take alot of flack for the Volunteer effort they do (Which they really do not deserve such flack.)

Having such an infraction system could be seen as a way to lower hostility towards moderators in general, although some people still seem to have the same old biases towards those they deem as unfit to be "Heirarchy". (It's not like you have to call all the moderators "My Lord/Lady", there is only a few of such creed among us.)

Placing the system back into having just JamesR doing the banning I actually felt unfair, not because I wanted to ban but poor James there takes so much flack from people upset at his moderation and then bannings ontop. I'm actually suprised that he's stayed here at sciforums for so long from such pressures, so I tip my hat/Raise a glass.

Roll a spliff, snort a line, have a wank and all to his honour.

I have to PM the infraction giver and attempt to get a reason as to why the infraction was given. I feel as though I am the parent questioning the child in some instances..

Don't feel uneasy, reverse the infraction and give a new one with higher points, you would feel like god.

Its a shame infractions seem to be heading out. I think we need to encourage infractions with annoying pop-ups and loud noises. Just change the icon though.


http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4233/spic12ae.jpg

Its a shame infractions seem to be heading out. I think we need to encourage infractions with annoying pop-ups and loud noises. Just change the icon though.


http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4233/spic12ae.jpg
Hillarious! :D

Well, we could think about it. Baseball bat maybe?

I dont see the point here. If personal insults and inappropriate language are really infractionable, half the members would be instantly vapourized!

If certain words are verboten why not just reprogram the site to automatically delete any new post containing those words. That would put an end to it in a flash.

Its a shame infractions seem to be heading out. I think we need to encourage infractions with annoying pop-ups and loud noises. Just change the icon though.


http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4233/spic12ae.jpg

This made me lawl! :D

The apathy of this forum never ceases to amaze.
Even with something like this, practically nobody has voted.

I've said it before, i'll say it again. Down with infractions...

Now I know it may be a little bit of a gamble to say we wouldn't even have to be here discussing the matter if it worked the way it was supposed to be.

It'd be much more efficient in my eyes just to find a perfect mod too, but that doesn't make it easier to say we don't need some extra level of support in upholding some level of authority here.

Perhaps a brain storm is in order, in regards of finding a better alternative to infractions.

I'd even be happy if you guys just made a group, not like moderators. But people in charge of handing out infractions. Self policing seems a little bit out of date though.....

Just so you know, your "Retain it, but..." vote is a yes vote. Not a no vote.
There are no conditional yes votes as stated in the opening post.

11 to 15 now.

I doubt this'll even reach a quorum of 50. That is, if the quorum rule is still in effect.

I doubt this'll even reach a quorum of 50. That is, if the quorum rule is still in effect.

What happens in the event it doesn't ?

Never even heard of a quorum rule here.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=32273

Those were Porf's rules though. Like I said, don't know if they still hold. I know that some actions were taken by the new admin with far less than 50 votes.

According to the old rules, if no quorum is reached, then the voting is null and void. I'd think that would mean that nothing changes about the infractions. They, by default, stay in effect.

Rather, the decision to keep them would be in the hands of admin alone.

Rather, the decision to keep them would be in the hands of admin alone.

...and God's hands as well.

...and God's hands as well.

In that unlikely circumstance, I put my faith in the God
Ganesh - Remover of Obstacles
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/8938/ganeshsd5.jpg

User infractions are an important part of our society, otherwise how would we punish spammers?

We got a platoon of mods strutting around with socks shoved down their drawers waitin' to do something.

Hit report, and let 'em doodily doodliy do.

2 days left. So far, 11 votes to keep the system in one form or another, 15 to abolish it.

retain it, and give a set of guidelines in every subforum as to their usage in that area.

Oy Vey...

Then if someone violates the guidelines...?

Give 'em an infraction ???
:bugeye:

But wait !

What if giving them an infraction for violating the guidelines violates the guidelines ???!!!


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
:eek:

Hell, let's make it so that the rules and guidelines are posted as the signature to every post in the forum.
That'll larn us.

poll closed.

15 say get rid of it.

14 say keep it.

can i vote twice?

you can have my vote.

A 'STFU' button would be quite good. If somebody is advertising or making a nuisance of themselves in general you'd hit the 'STFU' button.

Depending on the number of 'STFU's received, different punishments would be handed out. An example -

1 'STFU' = After posting you'd have to wait 5 minutes to post again.
2 'STFU' = You'd have to wait 15 minutes, your avatar would change to a dunce hat.
3 'STFU' = 30 minutes, dunce hat avatar and derogatory user title.
4 'STFU' = 24 hour ban and added to a wall of shame.

I like that idea. I like it a lot. Similar progressive humiliation should be used for those who set out to bore us, or who use big words without understanding what they mean (both far greater sins in my eyes than spammed ads or trolling teens).

I like that idea. I like it a lot. Similar progressive humiliation should be used for those who set out to bore us, or who use big words without understanding what they mean (both far greater sins in my eyes than spammed ads or trolling teens).

what about trolling adults, such as myself?

IRRELEVANT! TROLL!

Sorry, I thought I was kul xil for a second there.

IRRELEVANT! TROLL!

Sorry, I thought I was kul xil for a second there.

wanna fight?!
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/ezine/Pugilism.jpg

http://www.sillyjokes.co.uk/images/wacky/props/feather-duster.jpg
On Guard.

SNORLAX!!!!
http://z.about.com/f/wiki/e/en/0/07/Snorlax.bmp
I CHOOSE YOU!!!!
HEADBUTT ATTACK, NOW!!

It doesn't seem like a clear-cut majority wants to abolish the infraction system. What do we make of this?

The Devil Inside:

Haha. Your Snorlax won't wake up!

It doesn't seem like a clear-cut majority wants to abolish the infraction system. What do we make of this?

dude, 1 vote more is not clear cut.

you admit that the 2000 us presidential elections were clear cut, then?

The Devil Inside:

Haha. Your Snorlax won't wake up!

he is waving!

"It doesn't seem like a clear-cut majority...."

oops.
reading..comprehension......failing....must......d rink.....more....ginseng tea.....
uggggghhhh.....
*falls over*

poll closed.

15 say get rid of it.

14 say keep it.

Well, it doesn't sound to me like a convincing triumph? :rolleyes:

But a triumph nonetheless?

(Just an observation - excruciating indecision caused me not to vote.)

Administrator's Notice:

This was close shave indeed!

15:14 is the final result of this poll.

SF Abolitionists won their opponents SF 'Retain with or without changes' in really tight game.

(Crowd at the stadium sings: Walk on through the wind,
Walk on through the rain,
Tho' your dreams be tossed and blown.
Walk on, walk on with hope in your heart
And you'll never walk alone,
You'll never, ever walk alone...)


I would love that more members were involved in voting.
Anyway, I shall abide the results and abolish the infraction system.

Cheers!

But a triumph nonetheless?

(Just an observation - excruciating indecision caused me not to vote.)

Yep, it's a triumph. Therefore we'll respect the vote of majority and abolish the infractions and return to moderators deciding bans alone.

Anyway, it was worth to try and personally I still believe that infraction system can work!

the infraction system DOES work.
a couple of days ago a spammer registered and started spamming the board.
i reported 2 of the spams while other posters started handing out infractions.
the spammer managed to make 3 spams befor the infractions suspended him.
it was beautiful to watch the regular posters pummel this guy with infractions till he was suspended.

the infraction system will be great for when the mods start thinning out to 1 or 2, but with all the mods it's kind of redundent

so, now that the infraction system has been suspended what will happen to the infractions that are on my profile?
one was given by a sock puppet while the other was given as a joke.

the infraction system DOES work.
a couple of days ago a spammer registered and started spamming the board.
i reported 2 of the spams while other posters started handing out infractions.
the spammer managed to make 3 spams befor the infractions suspended him.
it was beautiful to watch the regular posters pummel this guy with infractions till he was suspended.

Interesting. So is that to say that you believe in "mob rule"? Several regular posters get together to "pummel" another poster? What's to prevent it?

the infraction system DOES work.

No, I think "The infraction system COULD work." Big difference. And I must say that, because humans are involved, it's not likely to work!

Baron Max

so, now that the infraction system has been suspended what will happen to the infractions that are on my profile?
one was given by a sock puppet while the other was given as a joke.
Is it better now?

They both were reversed and they didn't count. But, I removed them, anyway

Interesting. So is that to say that you believe in "mob rule"? Several regular posters get together to "pummel" another poster? What's to prevent it?


that's how the Bolshevik army took over Russia...

[
SF Abolitionists won their opponents SF 'Retain with or without changes' in really tight game.
Nooooooooooooooooooo!

fuck, i only just found this thread, i would have voted to keep it DAMN IT

fuck, i only just found this thread, i would have voted to keep it DAMN IT
Nooooooooooooooooooo!

Why Didnt You Vote!!!

sorry just saw you did, DAMN IT!

Yep, it's a triumph. Therefore we'll respect the vote of majority and abolish the infractions and return to moderators deciding bans alone.

Allāhu Akbar !!!

:cool:

Why Didnt You Vote!!!

I forgot to vote.

But then again, what would I have voted?

probably something stupid.

probably something stupid.

yeah...probably what you voted.

i voted for your mom.
she sexaaaay!

I should give you an infraction for feeling passion pangs for my mother.

I should give you an infraction for feeling passion pangs for my mother.

push that button, tough guy!
*raspberries*

Topic closed. Reason: Multiple off-topic posts! Topic outdated!