http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7221639.stm

I absolutely couldn't believe this when I read it.

I mean...wow.

Its perfectly normal behaviour for Muslims. Whats so surprising about it? :rolleyes:

Obviously, anything is permitted to further the goals of this organization.

Its perfectly normal behaviour for Muslims. Whats so surprising about it? :rolleyes:

I can't tell if you're being facetious or not...

Well, they didn't want to be discrimatory. They apparently have an equal opportunity program.

Won't be long now before they start using children as suicide bombers. Really sad.

Trained dogs. I guess they're running out of devout and suicidal Muslims.

I bet they even use openly gay people, which is more than I can say about the American army. :D

This thread makes me think of Baron Max. I am sure he would like a crack at this one. Maybe they figure not much lost, why sacrifice a healthy person.

yeah, he probably thinking 'its about time they pulled their own weight'


But does it surprise anyone that they are using disabled people?

How much convincing would it take? Here is a nice pretty purse with brightly coloured flowers on it. It has special magical powers, keep it close to you......

KABOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMM

This surprises people? We're talking about people who are willing to kill without discretion...

This surprises people? We're talking about people who are willing to kill without discretion...

Well, it surprises me for several reasons.

Aside from the obvious human rights issues, I have always had the impression that suicide bombers are willing participants in the whole affair. This isn't suicide bombing at all---it's something worse.

First they hide behind civilians:

Civilians: There is no such word in the Legal code of Islam (Sharia) and all Moslems are conscripted by Allah. In Lebanon and in the Gaza Strip civilians were used as protective shields. Moslems are the 'Army' of Allah carrying their God-given mission to defeat Satan: all means justifying the end

Yes the Religion of hope and peace, the religion that cares for the poor and disabled,....Yes...Only if you can further the Ummah, and carry a bomb.

Notice that S.A.M. didn't condemn the action....

When Muslims do these sort of things they give the Koran a bad name.
It is disgusting to treat people as disposal units simply because they are handicapped.

I want to and do believe that these are extremist. There are good Muslims too.
The true religion isn't in some book, its in the heart. Humans can manipulate words intellectually to suit their frustrated needs. The books are suppose to be guides for the heart, but too often they are used to sell anger and resentment to the intellect. Too often they are used to mislead people away from the heart...and then this sort of thing happens.

I could read the Koran and gain something from it, because I would use my heart to interpolate its deeper meaning. That goes for any book, not just the 'holy' books. This kind of behavior only occurs when people read and practice their religions from the head...intellectually. They leads themselves into misery.

You have a very western, un-Islamic conception of the Koran.

Aside from the obvious human rights issues, I have always had the impression that suicide bombers are willing participants in the whole affair. This isn't suicide bombing at all---it's something worse.

Sure, it is.

But suicide bombers, while "willing," are often taken advantage of by the terrorists, too. It's not as if there is a rational argument in favor of these sort of suicide attacks. So the "volunteers" for them are being lied to, manipulated and egged on by people with serious psychological problems.

However, to reiterate, the fact the terrorists have chosen to prey on the weakest among us and use them in no way surprises me.

. There are good Muslims too.

Then they need to step up, and make it loud and clear that this isn't to be tolerated.

If you care to notice S.A.M. doesn't, as long as it is done in the name of Allah, the Prophet, and the spread of Islam and the Ummah, its OK with her.

That is the Reformation that the Christians went through, I am a Protestant, we took on the Catholic Church to bring Christianity back to the Word of God, and Jesus Christ, my forefathers paid for their actions with their lives in doing so, they were the targets of the Inquisition, and the Catholic Church with charges of Heresy, and Apostasy, they faced torture and death to bring about the changes in the Church, and break away from the Catholic Hegemony.

Now where is Islam today? Is it even trying to reform? I doubt it as they believe in only one thing the Supremacy of Islam,

Dar'al Islam (or Dar'ul Islam -arab. House of Peace): All countries in the present or in the past to be Islamic controlled. Therefore also Spain, the Balkans and Israel belong to dar-al-Islam. Whenever Moslems talk about Islam as peaceful, they really mean the entire world ruled by Allah, nothing less. Places or lands of infidels aren't so pacified until they are ruled solely by the Sharia.

Islam: Totalitarian ideology propounding Arabic imperialism, based on the alleged teachings of Mohammed, which determines the entire social, political and legal life of the Muslims and the non-Muslims dominated by them. --Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated Abdul Raoulf, case of Abdul Rahman a Christian convert from Islam.

Islamo-fascism: Like Nazism was a National-Socialism, Islam is such a Religious-Socialism since its Khalifat is meant to be imposed worldwide, including its lifestyle, through forced conversion.

Won't be long now before they start using children as suicide bombers. Really sad.

They already have.

http://children.foreignpolicyblogs.com/category/suicide-bombers/

Every time I think these Muslim extremists have reached the limit of human depravity, they manage to push it that much more. To show their utter lack of any concern for innocent human life. It's absolutely disgusting.

Notice that S.A.M. didn't condemn the action....

Yep.

"Then they need to step up, and make it loud and clear that this isn't to be tolerated."

I certainly agree.

"You have a very western, un-Islamic conception of the Koran."

Could you provide an islamic conception? I will listen to your answer with interest if you provide one.

I have met many Muslins who were thoughtful warm-hearted people who were sad that such extreme behaviors have giving their religion a bad reputation amongst those of the West.

Could you provide an islamic conception? I will listen to your answer with interest if you provide one.

I can't see how an atheist (spidergoat) could give you the Islamic conception of the Qur'an.

"Then they need to step up, and make it loud and clear that this isn't to be tolerated."

I certainly agree.

"You have a very western, un-Islamic conception of the Koran."

Could you provide an islamic conception? I will listen to your answer with interest if you provide one.

I have met many Muslins who were thoughtful warm-hearted people who were sad that such extreme behaviors have giving their religion a bad reputation amongst those of the West.
Personal interpretation has no place in Islam. Liberal ideas about using your heart as a guide go against the idea the the Quoran is the unalterable and perfect guide to life as told to Mohammad. Also, the Koran is not the only work considered holy and perfect by Muslims, the Hadiths are as well.

I can't see how an atheist (spidergoat) could give you the Islamic conception of the Qur'an.
I admit my knowledge is incomplete, but from what I know so far, Jozen-Bo's characterization of the Qu'ran resembles Sufi Islam most of all, which most Muslims consider an incorrect innovation.

Islamic tard bombs... nice. It almost has a Monty Python-esque feel to it.

Its perfectly normal behaviour for Muslims. Whats so surprising about it? :rolleyes:

It is surprising to those "outside" the Islamic community for the Islamics to "use" handicapped people or children for those people have no idea what is going to happen to them , or so many people think. But you and I know better than that , don't we. The extremists will use any means and have done so to get their message across to the "enemy' of Islam. Sad but true.

I can't tell if you're being facetious or not...

First, I'm wondering who is Qassam al-Moussawi.

Second, I'm wondering why there are so many different versions of the same story


The BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7221639.stm)reports that the first explosion killed at least 46 and injured another 80, and that the second explosion killed at least 27 and injuring 67. That adds up to at least 73 dead, 147 wounded.

CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/02/01/iraq.main/index.html)reports that the first killed 69 and injured more than 140, and that the second killed 29 and injured 67. The sum is 98 dead, and at least 207 wounded.

Al Jazeera English (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/0D6CDAF7-559B-4851-93BB-8ABB6B351923.htm) reports that the first bomb killed 38 and the second at least 27. They estimate about 149 injured total. That is at least 65 dead, 149 wounded.

The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/02/world/middleeast/02iraq.html?ex=1359608400&en=752b863005b9ed57&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink) gives the same figures as Al Jazeera.

U.S. officials, according to CNN, reported a dramatically lower death toll: 27 dead and 53 wounded.

This is all very interesting, but whatever. The most interesting difference between the reports is that the BBC and CNN stories refer to Qassem Ata al-Moussawi (and any number of alternate spellings), "a spokesman for Baghdad's security plan," (what does that mean, anyway?) stating that the bombers, both women, were likely mentally disabled and the bombs detonated remotely. Both of them incorporated this prominently into their stories and headlines.

However, neither the Al Jazeera story nor the U.S. military make any mentions of the women's mental states. The NY Times article vaguely mentions Iraqi officials' comments about the women potentially being mentally disabled, but essentially disregards it, noting that "...Iraqi officials have made similar claims in the past...."


Link (http://neurogenetic.blogspot.com/2008/02/truth.html)


Every time I think these Muslim extremists have reached the limit of human depravity, they manage to push it that much more. To show their utter lack of any concern for innocent human life. It's absolutely disgusting.

You're kidding, right?

Personal interpretation has no place in Islam. Liberal ideas about using your heart as a guide go against the idea the the Quoran is the unalterable and perfect guide to life as told to Mohammad. Also, the Koran is not the only work considered holy and perfect by Muslims, the Hadiths are as well.

Wrong. Personal interpretation is allowed in Islam. No one is allowed to meddle in the religiouf affairs of another person. Even extremists van say what they want until they actually commit atrocities. The Prophet placed great emphasis on people using their minds, thinking about the message and studying it.

Also, not all Hadith are accepted auotmatically. Hadith which go aainst the Quranic teachings can be dismissed.

And it would have been better if Madanthonywayne would have left out the Muslim part but just called them terrorists

I'm not surprised the demonic muslim terrorists did this. It's not the first time. It probably won't be the last. :mad:

Evil muslim Palestinian terrorists used a mentally retarded boy to be a homicide bomber at an Israeli army checkpoint a few years ago. :mad:

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2008/02/religion_of_men.html

So now they're using tard-bombs to further their cause....

How apropos of nothing.

And it would have been better if Madanthonywayne would have left out the Muslim part but just called them terrorists

But who do they call to, when they kill? Allah! Allu Akbar!

Allu Akbar, is the cry, and it isn't from Christians that you hear this, it is a Moslem cry of jubilation, and praise, and it wasn't the Infidels that were on the other end of the switch, it was Moslem Terrorist.

It has been Moslems for decades.

1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.

Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.

1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.

Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.

1985
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.

Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.

1986
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.

1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.

1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.

1995
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.

1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.

1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.

2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.

2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)

2002
June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.

2003
May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.

2004
May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.

June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.

Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.

2005
Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: Suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.

2007

Dec. 11, Algeria: More than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices.


The common thread through all this is Islam, Moslems, Allah! Allu Akbar!

So they are Muslims, even if they are breaking Quranic laws? Just because they say that? But you discredit your point again when you copy and paste that list of terrorist attacks whihc, thankfully, says "terrorists" :)

You're kidding, right?

No S.A.M. I don't think madanthonywayne is kidding, because every time we think we have seen the bottom of the barrel from Moslems, they find a way to sink even lower into depravity, this time by using the most innocent and gullable to kill.

Lol BR still doesnt understand that a terrorist is nothing to do with a religion. Google Christian terrorism or Jewish Terrorism or Atheist or Animal rights and blabla and you will find the same crap BR wants to shove down our throats. Fortunately, there are people on these boards who see that Islam and terrorism are 2 separate entities. Terrorism has many causes, most because of historical and social situations and events.

So they are Muslims, even if they are breaking Quranic laws? Just because they say that? But you discredit your point again when you copy and paste that list of terrorist attacks whihc, thankfully, says "terrorists" :)

Why don't you just say it, you wish to paint me as a Islamophob, but it still is a fact that 9 out of 10 suicide bombings are the actions of Moslems, in the Name of Allah, and the Prophet, for the furtherance of Islam and the Ummah.

Islamophobia: Expression intended to pinpoint that any criticism of Islam comes from a disturbed mind, a deranged person, stupid and cretinous; someone worthy of being treated for mental illness.

The standard tactic of Moslems when faced with the truth.

Why don't you just say it, you wish to paint me as a Islamophob, but it still is a fact that 9 out of 10 suicide bombings are the actions of Moslems, in the Name of Allah, and the Prophet, for the furtherance of Islam and the Ummah.

Are they now? Give me written confessions by suicide bombers that tehy are doing it exactly for those causes ;)


Islamophobia (prejudice against Muslims)
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=islamophobia

They won't admit the truth because then they won't have the stupid people fooled any more. They don't fool us. They never will.:mad:

Sandy, are you by any chance Cassandra from Terdiscussie.nl?

Lol BR still doesnt understand that a terrorist is nothing to do with a religion. Google Christian terrorism or Jewish Terrorism or Atheist or Animal rights and blabla and you will find the same crap BR wants to shove down our throats. Fortunately, there are people on these boards who see that Islam and terrorism are 2 separate entities. Terrorism has many causes, most because of historical and social situations and events.

Yes tell us about all of the suicide Bombing by Christians, Buddhist, Zoroastrians, Jews, Hindus, ....................Every week they are in the news for suicide bombings, Tens, Fifties, Hundreds, killed by suicide bombers, but when you read the story's who are the suicide bombers? they are the people who use the cry....Allu Akbar...God is Great.....Moslems, believers in Islam...........Paradise in a Flash.............Boom!!! innocent die at their hands, and they want to go to Paradise, Islam that is the Theme behind the Suicide Murder, of the innocent, the Mentally Disabled.


Islamic terrorism (also known as Islamist terrorism or Jihadist terrorism) is religious terrorism by those whose motivations and aims have a predominant Islamic character or influence.[1]

Mark Juergensmeyer suggests that religious terrorism consists of acts that terrify, the definition of which is provided by the witnesses - the ones terrified - and not by the party committing the act; accompanied by either a religious motivation, justification, organization, or world view.[2]:4-10 Religion is sometimes used in combination with other factors, and sometimes as the primary motivation. Religious terrorism is intimately connected to current forces of geopolitics.

Hoffman argues that to be considered religious terrorism the perpetrators must use religious scriptures to justify or explain their violent acts or to gain recruits and there must be some sort of clerical figures involved in some leadership roles. [3]

"Although religion is not a single, simple causal factor in terrorist violence, religious elements often feature strongly in the belief systems associated with terrorist violence, and can also feature in other important fostering factors for terrorist violence, such as the use of rhetoric."[4]

All from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism Wpw now thats the be all and end all of all debate :rolleyes:

But no you dont hear about suicide bombings, or bombigs, or attempted bombimgs, or teh burning down of mosuqes, or the massacres of muslims by hindus, or the tortured Muslims, or the... get the picture?

....Every week they are in the news for suicide bombings...they are the people who use the cry....Allu Akbar...God is Great.....Moslems, believers in Islam...........Paradise in a Flash.............Boom!!! innocent die at their hands, and they want to go to Paradise, Islam that is the Theme behind the Suicide Murder, of the innocent, the Mentally Disabled.

Every week? Every DAY evil muslim terrorists kill innocents! :mad: All around the world:

2/1/2008 (Narathiwat, Thailand) - Two elderly men are murdered by Islamic gunmen in separate attacks.
2/1/2008 (Nouakchott, Mauritania) - Bearded Jihadis shout 'Allah Akbar' and open up on the Israeli embassy with automatic weapons, injuring three bystanders.
2/1/2008 (Mir Ali, Pakistan) - A suicidal Sunni rams a police vehicle with an explosives-laden vehicle, killing at least five people. :mad:

Demonic. Ugh...:mad:

You do know thats not a confession right? Its a funny piece from a freedom of iran blog...

And now its gone lol

Sandy, are you by any chance Cassandra from Terdisucssie.nl or not?

"By targeting innocent Iraqis, they show their true demonic character," said Lt. Col. Steve Stover, spokesman for the Multi-National Division-Baghdad. :mad:

"They care nothing for the Iraqi people; they want to subjugate them and forcefully create a greater Islamic sharia state," he said, referring to Islamic law. :mad:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/02/01/iraq.main/index.html

Wow, its like talking to a brick wall...

They are resourceful, I'll give 'em that. They don't have the money to pay private contractors to developed an unmanned suicide bomber.

I'm wondering, are these the extremists getting $300 a month from the US, along with arms?

Possibly.

Personal interpretation has no place in Islam. Liberal ideas about using your heart as a guide go against the idea the the Quoran is the unalterable and perfect guide to life as told to Mohammad.

I agree to a point. I agree that there is only one correct interpretation of the Qur'an; however, that doesn't mean the interpretation we Muslims commonly agree to is the correct one.

Also, the Koran is not the only work considered holy and perfect by Muslims, the Hadiths are as well.

No, the Hadiths are not considered "holy" and "perfect". This is completely untrue. Hadiths should only be used as guidelines, and that's only when they're very well-sourced and reliable. People who have knowledge on the topic realize that the Hadiths contradict the Qur'an at times, clearly showing that they are not in complete harmony with one another.

I admit my knowledge is incomplete, but from what I know so far, Jozen-Bo's characterization of the Qu'ran resembles Sufi Islam most of all, which most Muslims consider an incorrect innovation.

I'd go so far as saying your knowledge on Islam is dismal. Sorry, but I don't feel comfortable in seeking religious information from an atheist.

Are they now? Give me written confessions by suicide bombers that tehy are doing it exactly for those causes ;)



http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=islamophobia

Sorry I can't give you a confession of a Suicide Bomber, as they consider themselves as Martyrs, Shaheed, nothing to confess.

Shaheed is a religious concept,

Shaheed (Arabic: شَهيد ‎ šahīd, plural: شُهَداء šuhadā) is an arabic word literally meaning "witness". It is a religious term in Islam, meaning "witness" and most often martyr. It used as a title for Muslims who have died fulfilling of a religious commandment, or in waging war for Islam.

“ Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord; „
—Qur'an, 2:214

Well, they didn't want to be discrimatory. They apparently have an equal opportunity program.

The thing is, they view it as an honor and a privilege. To some terrorists, letting the disabled or retarded person blow themselves up is being progressive, because the "first choice" would usually be a non-disabled person. When they do it, they feel like they are doing the would-be bomber a favor...after ll they are sending them to heaven and and into the arms of 72 virgins.

Originally Posted by S.A.M.
Its perfectly normal behaviour for Muslims. Whats so surprising about it?

Muslims seem to have lived by terror ever since their religion was founded because that is what they believe the only way to control others. Fear plays an important part in the make up of all Islamic countries for those in power seem to use it without question to subjugate their followers. Anything seen as "outside" their own religions viewpoint is immediately against their religion and undermines their power structure and therefore must be done away with.

Killing those that want to learn about new ideas as well as never teaching their own citizens about the world and others viewpoints only gives those in power a greater control over their peoples. By maintain a fear based control those in power have always kept up the show because once they relent to outsiders their own power base would be undermined.


Arms dealers from all over the world want to only make money and by selling arms and military support to them only helps them keep in control of their citizens and also helps in overthrowing those who oppose their views. The arms dealers make the profits from the blood that the terrorists kill as well as those terrorists that are killed themselves. As the terrorists blood runs through the streets in the Muslim world, the arms dealers send their children to colleges and universities all over the world to teach them how to use others like the terrorists to but more weapons to perpetuate their goals.

Sorry I can't give you a confession of a Suicide Bomber, as they consider themselves as Martyrs, Shaheed, nothing to confess.

Ofcourse you cant. The only thinkg you CAN do is hypothetise, incorrectly, about the reasons for their actions.

Who needs to hypothesize when the Koran clearly tells/demands them to commit violence? :confused: :rolleyes:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

Ofcourse you cant. The only thinkg you CAN do is hypothetise, incorrectly, about the reasons for their actions.


Then why do they, in their Martyr Videos, praise Allah, and talk of Paradise?
Why are they considered Shaheed/Shahid, buy the People who send them?

If they are not Shaheed/Shahid, then you are telling me they have gone to hell, and their soul is lost.

I am not going to sit down and turn a Video into a transcript, but the videos are there, for all to see, and the statement from those who commit suicide are there for all to listen to, and they commit suicide in the name of Allah, and the Prophet, and the People who send them talk of their becoming being Shaheed/Shahid,

Words connected with actions provide definition, and Shaheed/Shahid connected with suicide bombing, and praise by the Moslem community say this is a religious act. The Fact that they are talked about as having gone directly to Paradise makes this a religious act tied with Islam.

Actions connected with Ideas, tied in a Religious Concept, define Suicide Bombing as a distinct act practiced by Moslems.

The word "shahid" nowadays is associated to non-Muslims with attacks performed by Muslim militias and Muslim paramilitary organizations, because people of these organizations use this title after the death of a suicide bomber.

In 20th century the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini of Iran emphasised the importance of martyrdom among Muslims, in the Iranian Revolution he led and later in the Iran-Iraq War Khomeini's Islamic republic fought against its Arab nationalist neighbor Iraq. The sacrifice of lives by large numbers of Iranian youth did not bring victory to Iran,

Then why do they, in their Martyr Videos, praise Allah, and talk of Paradise?
Why are they considered Shaheed/Shahid, buy the People who send them?

If they are not Shaheed/Shahid, then you are telling me they have gone to hell, and their soul is lost.

I am not going to sit down and turn a Video into a transcript, but the videos are there, for all to see, and the statement from those who commit suicide are there for all to listen to, and they commit suicide in the name of Allah, and the Prophet, and the People who send them talk of their becoming being Shaheed/Shahid,

Words connected with actions provide definition, and Shaheed/Shahid connected with suicide bombing, and praise by the Moslem community say this is a religious act. The Fact that they are talked about as having gone directly to Paradise makes this a religious act tied with Islam.

Actions connected with Ideas, tied in a Religious Concept, define Suicide Bombing as a distinct act practiced by Moslems.

The word "shahid" nowadays is associated to non-Muslims with attacks performed by Muslim militias and Muslim paramilitary organizations, because people of these organizations use this title after the death of a suicide bomber.

In 20th century the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini of Iran emphasised the importance of martyrdom among Muslims, in the Iranian Revolution he led and later in the Iran-Iraq War Khomeini's Islamic republic fought against its Arab nationalist neighbor Iraq. The sacrifice of lives by large numbers of Iranian youth did not bring victory to Iran,

Ok then, provide me with videos from all suicide bombers saying they do it for those reasons :rolleyes:

Second, I'm wondering why there are so many different versions of the same story

I don't know about other news agencies, but I typically trust what I read on the BBC (especially when compared against Al Jazeera). Also note that the numbers in the three news reports that you mentioned are not inconsistent with each other. CNN reported ``at least'' 27 dead.

And all of this is derailing the point anyway... If you want to criticize the reporting, you should focus on the issue at hand.

Ok then, provide me with videos from all suicide bombers saying they do it for those reasons :rolleyes:

Look them up yourself, Al Jazeera is a good place to start.

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/a-palestinian-mother-of-a-suicide-terrorist/2357999197

I don't know about other news agencies, but I typically trust what I read on the BBC (especially when compared against Al Jazeera). Also note that the numbers in the three news reports that you mentioned are not inconsistent with each other. CNN reported ``at least'' 27 dead.

And all of this is derailing the point anyway... If you want to criticize the reporting, you should focus on the issue at hand.

I trust the BBC reporting too. What I don't trust are official sources of news in Iraq, namely the US army or their Iraqi puppet regime. Which is what this news story is based on. Who is Qassam al Moussawi? How does he know the bombs were by al-Qaeda?

For example, it is to the advantage of Iraqi troops paid $300 a month by the US and given arms and other training to keep the news of militancy alive. How would they know the women were disabled for instance? From all Iraqi news sources, the population of Baghdad has been displaced. Those who had left and returned when the violence was reduced found their homes and properties either destroyed or taken over.

For the Iraqi troops to be able to identify from the remains of bombs that killed over a hundred people, two bodies as disabled women, would be an incredible feat of investigation. Especially immediately.

The Onion is supposed to be parody.
Clinton Deploys Very Special Forces To Iraq

WASHINGTON, DC—Preparing for another possible showdown with Iraq, President Clinton deployed more than 15,000 very special U.S. forces to the Persian Gulf region Tuesday.

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/5687/onionnews1562gh0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Sgt. Tommy Dolber, who loves baseball and rollerskating, leads a group of very special forces in maneuvers near the Iraq-Kuwait border.

Clinton said the objective of the mission, dubbed Operation Great Job!, is twofold: to keep pressure on Saddam Hussein to permit the return of U.N. weapons inspectors, and to provide America's very special forces with a positive, rewarding, esteem-building experience.

"With Operation Great Job!, we send the message loud and clear to Saddam Hussein that his open defiance of the United Nations and international law will not be tolerated," Clinton said. "We also send the equally important message to our own troops that what's important is not whether you defeat the enemy, but that you try your best and have fun."

Added Clinton: "Hooray, U.S. troops!"

At a Pentagon press conference, Secretary of Defense William Cohen expressed confidence that the mission will be successful. "I have full faith that our troops will do a terrific job in Iraq," Cohen said, "but even if they make a few mistakes, we'll still be very, very proud of them."

Cohen stressed that the safety of America's special forces is of paramount importance. In an effort to reduce the risk of anyone getting hurt, the Defense Secretary has urged all U.S. troops to tie their shoelaces "nice and tight."

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1889/onionnews1569np5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
A C-130 short plane transports a battalion of very special forces to the Gulf.

Morale is said to be high among members of the very special forces, who were flown Monday from Sheppard Air Force Base to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, in a squadron of specially modified C-130 "short planes." Upon arriving, the troops were given a thorough mission debriefing by Gen. James Herzog and a butterscotch-pudding snack cup. Each soldier was then issued an AR-15 rifle, three clips of NATO 7.62 mm rounds, a combat helmet with a velcro safety-strap, and a fanny pack with his name written on it in black magic marker.

"We are going to win the war," said Pvt. Richie Ammaker of Hagerstown, MD, eating his snack cup with a Capri-Sun juice-pak. "I love to clap and sing along to the music!"

"Colonel Gene [Diering] says that if we take out the communications tower in Al Basrah, we can have a pizza party," Pvt. Josh Paretsky of Dallas said. "Pizza party! Pizza party! Pizza party!"

"You're pretty," Paretsky added. "Will you marry me?"

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29257

How would they know the women were disabled for instance?

"Forensic and bomb squad experts as well as the people and traders of al-Shorja area of the carpet market have confirmed that the woman who was blown-up there today was often in the area and was mentally disabled...

Sure, if you don't trust this Iraqi officer, then it's just another suicide bombing where some innocent people died...just another day at the office.

I have to concede that it could be a fabrication to garner some international attention (i.e. propoganda). But I did a google search and found other instances of such attacks

Even the use of the handicapped in suicide bombings is not unprecedented in Iraq. In January 2005, Iraq's interior minister said insurgents used a disabled child in a suicide attack on election day. Police at the scene of the bombing said the child appeared to have Down syndrome.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,327445,00.html

Also, the same story appears on the AP wire (i.e. it seems a lazy reporter just lifted it):
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gkx-3oYeFwuWKCusr2jrojs98w8wD8UI242O0

If you don't trust fox News or the AP, then NPR has an article about similar tactics in Afghanistan:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15276485


An eye-witness, in Washington Post:
Haider Jabar, a 28-year-old government employee who lives near the market and often goes for a stroll among the cages, said the woman used in that attack was a stranger to the locals.

"The woman seemed to be handicapped. It was uncommon to have a woman walking inside New Baghdad bird market, this fact had attracted many teenagers who had gathered around her at the time of the explosion," he said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/02/AR2008020200350_2.html

So it certainly could be propoganda---this cannot be ruled out. The American and European news agencies are both reporting the same thing, which is (admittedly) based on the same report from the same person. The US Army report gives a smaller casualty figure, which certainly makes the Iraqi officer guilty of embellishing.

However, based on the history (AP news rept---it has happened before) and the eyewitness account, I find no reason to disbelieve this news.

Sure, if you don't trust this Iraqi officer, then it's just another suicide bombing where some innocent people died...just another day at the office.

I have to concede that it could be a fabrication to garner some international attention (i.e. propoganda). But I did a google search and found other instances of such attacks



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,327445,00.html

If you don't trust fox News, NPR:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15276485

Also, the same story appears on the AP wire (i.e. it seems a lazy reporter just lifted it):
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gkx-3oYeFwuWKCusr2jrojs98w8wD8UI242O0

An eye-witness, in Washington Post:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/02/AR2008020200350_2.html

So it certainly could be propoganda---this cannot be ruled out. The American and European news agencies are both reporting the same thing, which is (admittedly) based on the same report from the same person. The US Army report gives a smaller casualty figure, which certainly makes the Iraqi officer guilty of embellishing.

However, based on the history (AP news rept---it has happened before) and the eyewitness account, I find no reason to disbelieve this news.

Interesting, in one breath you acknowledge the Iraqi officer was embellishing, in another you believe the story because sick Afghani men are doing it? What the hell does sick Afghani men (who constitute 80% of the bombers) have to do with the statement of an Iraqi officer ?

Especially considering this?



Christine Fair, who co-authored a United Nations report released in September on Afghanistan's suicide attacks, says there are other factors that make it difficult to figure out who the bombers are.

She says Afghan investigations into suicide bombings leave a lot to be desired.

Afghan Gen. Nik Mohammed Nikzad, who heads crime scene investigations here, agrees. He complains that by the time his team is permitted to enter the scene, evidence has often been compromised or removed — sometimes by Western soldiers.

Or this?

"They are probably resentful because in Afghan society they are outcasts," Yadgari says. "They hold a grudge because many of them can't get a job. So, to make money for their families, they agree to become suicide bombers."

And whats WaPo's source?

Also, I'm curious, were the women walking around unveiled? in the market ? In Baghdad? Now?

http://dahrjamailiraq.com/hard_news/archives/iraq/000728.php#more

I just wonder how many people were disabled by the cluster munitions and depleted Uranium rounds that were used in Iraq.

Or in Afghanistan.

Interesting, in one breath you acknowledge the Iraqi officer was embellishing, in another you believe the story because sick Afghani men are doing it? What the hell does sick Afghani men (who constitute 80% of the bombers) have to do with the statement of an Iraqi officer ?

Should I connect the dots for you, or do you like to draw in your own coloring book?

Should I connect the dots for you, or do you like to draw in your own coloring book?

You mean the Pashtuns = the Iraqis?

You obviously know very little about the people of either region. :rolleyes:

You mean the Pashtuns = the Iraqis?

You obviously know very little about the people of either region. :rolleyes:

Obviously there's absolutely no connection between the fact that some insurgents (who have been linked to Al Qaeda) in Afghanistan would use the same tactics as some insurgents (who have been linked to Al Qaeda) in Iraq.

Apologies for my faulty American logic.

Obviously there's absolutely no connection between the fact that some insurgents (who have been linked to Al Qaeda) in Afghanistan would use the same tactics as some insurgents (who have been linked to Al Qaeda) in Iraq.

Apologies for my faulty American logic.

al Qaeda, al Qaeda wherever we go...:rolleyes:

Ooh look, that dead guy is al Qaeda. How the hell do you know?

Afghan men volunteering to make money for family vs two supposedly mentally disabled women roaming around Baghdad with bombs. You see many more of those dots, you should see a doctor.

You are one hell of a last word freak...

I see that this conversation has disintegrated. Thanks :)

If you post an accusation against people occupied illegally by troops from your country, you better be prepared to back it up with facts rather than insinuations that demonise the occupied people. Especially considering the depth and magnitude of the lies used by the government of your country to engage in the invasion and occupation to begin with. You may be prepared to docilely accept any story they see fit to dole out to maintain their militaristic ambitions, but not everyone is as accepting of such nonsense the nth time around.

If you post an accusation against people occupied illegally by troops from your country, you better be prepared to back it up with facts rather than insinuations that demonise the occupied people. Especially considering the depth and magnitude of the lies used by the government of your country to engage in the invasion and occupation to begin with. You may be prepared to docilely accept any story they see fit to dole out to maintain their militaristic ambitions, but not everyone is as accepting of such nonsense the nth time around.

SAM, seriously---I am so glad that you are here to set me straight. I mean, how silly of me to assume that a bunch of insurgents who disvalue human life would be so uncompassionate as to use mentally retarded women as decoys. I absolutely don't know what came over me.

We should all be so fortunate to be able to see through the lies of independant, major news outlets around the world, eyewitnesses who were watching the incident unfold, and well-documented historical precident.

S.A.M your intelligence is a beacon to freadom, and your powers of deduction are unparalleled. Of COURSE the al Qaeda in Afgthanistan are completely unrelated to the al Qaeda in Iraq. How foolish we have been to assume that the all those `al's and `bin's are the same thing. And how foolish are we to think that those grainy video tapes of radical clerics sitting in stone caves, calling for Muslim men to blow themselves up in Iraq were authentic---I mean, the US government probably has legions of brown skinned imposters posing around the world to perpetuate the MYTH that Islamic extremists want to murder anyone who doesn't agree with them.

If only we could all learn to see the world through your eyes, we might someday come to understand that the insurgents in Iraq are only killing innocent Iraqis by mistake, and that the United States is behind all of the ills in this world.

I, for one, have learned MY lesson. I only hope that the other poor souls here on SciForums can see your genius for what it truly is.

SAM, seriously---I am so glad that you are here to set me straight. I mean, how silly of me to assume that a bunch of insurgents who disvalue human life.

Is it fair to talk about the troops occupying a country, based on lies though it is, in that manner? They are your countrymen, after all :yawn:

Stick to physics, Ben.

Stick to physics, Ben.

Ahh sound advice. Typically I try to unless I'm feeling a bit naughty. Then I try to only comment on crimes against humanity.

Look them up yourself, Al Jazeera is a good place to start.

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/a-palestinian-mother-of-a-suicide-terrorist/2357999197

:roflmao:Is that your final answer? So far you have failed to:

*provide me with verses that are supposedly abrogated

*with footnotes so i can verify your sources when you copy and paste

*confessions, written, oral or video, from all suicicde bombers that the reason they are doing it is to help Islam, to further the cause of Islam or the Prophet or all those other insinuations you came up with. Youve only provided me with 1 link to a video, heavily edited, which shows the reason the Palestinians attack Israeli soldiers (to get rid of the occupying forces) thereby discrediting your own point.

But its all good. I didnt expect you to provide any reasonable debate anyway. Your just another great example of what shock treatment can do. Your mind has been cleared of everything pre-9/11 and in that tabula rasa anti-Islamic ideologies have been written. Dont worry, its a normal effect psychiatric patients experience.

Ahh sound advice. Typically I try to unless I'm feeling a bit naughty. Then I try to only comment on crimes against humanity.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=77156

like that limbless little iraqi boy

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=77156

S.A.M.----do you have a source for your baseless accusations against the wrongfully accused Isalmic extremists? Or are you just spouting more of your conservative pro-western crap again?

S.A.M.----do you have a source for your baseless accusations against the wrongfully accused Isalmic extremists? Or are you just spouting more of your conservative pro-western crap again?

It was al Qaeda. The terrorist said so in a seance conducted using the bits and pieces found at the scene. Although some of them were clucks and might indicate contamination with eggshells.:)

However considering they've already gone through kids, petshops and disabled women, fluffy bunnies was a natural progression.:cool:

Let us hope there isn't a a fluffy mentally retarded female baby bunny out there. :bugeye:

However considering they've already gone through kids, petshops and disabled women, fluffy bunnies was a natural progression.

So...are bunnies unclean? I mean, you'd think they'd go with suicide pigs and try to kill several birds with the same stone...you know, ridding the world of pork and Americans all with one go?

Man osama really fell down on that one.

So...are bunnies unclean? I mean, you'd think they'd go with suicide pigs and try to kill several birds with the same stone...you know, ridding the world of pork and Americans all with one go?

Man osama really fell down on that one.

Nah they'd rather the Americans gorge on the pigs and kill themselves.

/oops that was a supersecret plan of al Qaeda spreading obesity in the west. :eek:

was a supersecret plan of al Qaeda spreading obesity in the west. :eek:

أنا آمل هذا مترجمة أعمال

Nah they'd rather the Americans gorge on the pigs and kill themselves.

That doesn't quite have the al Qaeda flair.

أحمق

أنا آمل هذا مترجمة أعمال

Billahi ana asif :bawl:

You know, Sam, I think it is awesome how you shifted a discussion about how innocent people were killed in some market in Iraq to an indictment of Western media. Nice.

Its perfectly normal behaviour for Muslims. Whats so surprising about it? :rolleyes:

I know you are beeing sarcastic .........that´s OK ......


Notice that S.A.M. didn't condemn the action....

S.A.M. has however never approved terrorist actions as far as I know .......


I absolutely couldn't believe this when I read it.

I mean...wow.

I know ... if it is true, then .... I am in lack of words ....... strapping bombs to mentally retarded people , who hasn´t got a clue about what is happening ........
An ABOMINATION .........:mad:

You know, Sam, I think it is awesome how you shifted a discussion about how innocent people were killed in some market in Iraq to an indictment of Western media. Nice.

Yeah it sucks to have to back up your accusations with facts.

I do not think arming and paying extremists makes for honest reports from them. Especially if continued arming and funding depends on such reports.

I could theoretically put a bomb on any Tom Dick and Harry and call him alQaeda, just so I could receive money from those who crap their pants when they hear al Qaeda, so that they continued to give me money to "kill" al Qaeda.

How does anyone know a dead person is al Qaeda? Or a bomb is? How do you tell if the bomb was planted by an Iraqi or an American?

In a country torn between those who want the US out and those who want to line their pockets using $$$ how do you tell which is which?

S.A.M. has however never approved terrorist actions as far as I know .......


But she never condemns the actions, silence is tacit approval.

But she never condemns the actions, silence is tacit approval.

Muslims have condemned them so often that we dont see a point anymore because every single time something like this happens, we get blamed for it, we condemn it and it goes away for a while, then it happens again and everything we said about the previous attack if forgotten like that and we are blamed again. Theres no point in uws condemning it to every single person who wants us to condemn it.

I absolutely couldn't believe this when I read it.

I mean...wow.I've read some times Vietnamese solders would strap a grenade onto the body of a baby and toss the child at US marines.

People justify doing some sick shit.

I've read some times Vietnamese solders would strap a grenade onto the body of a baby and toss the child at US marines.

People justify doing some sick shit.

Bet you heard that from the same Americans who chopped off the head of a Vietnamese baby to get at the necklace it was wearing. Or cut off ears of the Vietnamese to make ear necklaces.

I'm pretty sure Vietnamese value their children as much as Americans do.

I'm not saying ALL Vietnamese did that. But some people did (accordingly) and that's the point. There are always going to be some people who can justify just about anything. So yeah these women were used by some unscrupulous arseholes.

So yeah these women were used by some unscrupulous arseholes.

How does anyone know these women were mentally disabled? Who were these women? Who identified them? Its all some Al-MeMoMuslim "giving" news to the media and the media lapping it up. If the news report was "US troops tie bombs to disabled women", would you be so quick to accept the report?

Also, do you have a link to the story where Vietnamese tied bombs to their children? I'd be interested to see the source of that story.

How does anyone know these women were mentally disabled? Who were these women? Who identified them? Its all some Al-MeMoMuslim "giving" news to the media and the media lapping it up. If the news report was "US troops tie bombs to disabled women", would you be so quick to accept the report?

Also, do you have a link to the story where Vietnamese tied bombs to their children? I'd be interested to see the source of that story.

Excuses, excuses, excess, it still was two women who were carrying the bombs into the Pet Market, no military value, no Americans present, just innocent Iraqis, the bombs were detonated by remote control.

Now how are the Terrorist going to liberate Iraq by killing Iraqis?

BBC
News

Twin bombs kill scores in Baghdad

More than 70 people have been killed by two bombs in Baghdad, attached to two mentally disabled women and detonated remotely, says a security official.

http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/080201/080201-iraqblast-hmed-2a.h2.jpg

Excuses, excuses, excess, it still was tow women who were carrying the bombs into the Pet Market, no military value, no Americans present, just innocent Iraqis, the bombs were detonated by remote control.

Now how are the Terrorist going to liberate Iraq by killing Iraqis?


More than 70 people have been killed by two bombs in Baghdad, attached to two mentally disabled women and detonated remotely, says a security official.

The economy of memory:

The exhibition at Saigon’s War Remnants Museum begins with a quotation from Former Secretary of State Robert S. McNamara in 1995: “Yet we were wrong, terribly wrong. We owe it to future generations to explain why.” The museum has added a caption: “It was a mistake that has caused severe results for the country and people of Vietnam.”

I gasped when I turned the corner and saw a pair of photos from the war. I was in Saigon just two months after the details of the abuses at Abu Ghraib began surfacing. It was a difficult time to be traveling as an American, to defend my countrymen, when with each new photo we looked more vicious. There, on the wall in Saigon, was a photo of an American infantryman with a Vietnamese captive on a leash. Another photo shows four smiling young American soldiers holding the decapitated heads of two Vietnamese. I had never before seen these photos. The caption under the leash photo read: “The soldiers of the first US Cavalry captured a prisoner. He was dragged to the interrogation Center in a forest where the Division quartered. The prisoner was stripped out and thrown on the ground, then the question was begun: heels of the boots trampled on his head, rifle butts were ready to rain in on him.” The caption is also given in Vietnamese, French, and Chinese.

The museum used to be called the Chinese and American War Crimes Museum, but the government feared they were scaring off some tourists, so they renamed it. One Vietnamese tourism web site says that 6 million people have visited the museum, including over a million foreign tourists. On the day I went, however, nearly every person there was a foreigner. The grounds of the museum complex are filled with American bombs and tanks, but the gripping displays are all indoors: photographs of napalmed children, the massacre at My Lai, an arrested man being dragged to death behind an armored car, and stillborn babies with birth defects inside jars. I fought back tears, and sometimes the urge to throw up.

I tried to reassure myself that it was all propaganda. But the fact that it’s propaganda doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. The photos are real, and all the more jarring because they are so similar to the ones taken at Abu Ghraib.
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0920-02.htm

The utter lack of accountability

The photographs on the walls of the War Museum in central Ho Chi Minh City are proof, if any more were needed, that the torturing of Iraqi prisoners by US soldiers and the wholesale killing of civilians are not “aberrations”. Massive, overwhelming brutality and destruction are standard operating procedures for the US military.

On the walls of the War Museum are countless photographs depicting US war crimes. Many of them were published in major US magazines and newspapers in the 1960s and 1970s. If US citizens were surprised by Abu Ghraib, it is because they have been encouraged to forget what the US government did in Vietnam.

There is a photograph, presumably released by the US Air Force, of a B-52 dropping scores of bombs from tens of thousands of feet above Vietnam — US government officials of the time liked to claim “surgical precision” for their bombing raids. The tonnage of bombs dropped on Vietnam was greater than the total dropped by all combatants in all theatres of World War II.

There is a photograph of bodies lying in the rubble of a Haiphong hospital, destroyed by US bombing in April 1972.

Another shows a squad of four US soldiers posing with their “trophies”—the heads of two decapitated Vietnamese men.

There are pictures of exploding napalm, and the aftermath: charred bodies scarcely recognisable as human. In another photo, US soldiers stand waiting for fire to finish consuming a village before they enter.

Over and over and over: torture and brutality. A US soldier torturing a Vietnamese peasant with a knife. A Vietnamese man tied by his feet and dragged behind an armoured personnel carrier. A Vietnamese who refused to “cooperate” with interrogators being thrown to his death from a US helicopter.

There are the horrific photographs taken by US photographers at Son My (also called My Lai), where US troops slaughtered 504 unarmed civilians, not sparing even small babies. For this crime, only one soldier, Lieutenant William Calley, was convicted. Sentenced in 1971 to life imprisonment, he was paroled in 1974 by President Richard Nixon.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2005/624/34870

The more things change, the more they remain the same.:(

Tiger Force operated out of control in the Vietnamese highlands for seven months in 1967. Moving across the region, the platoon of 45 paratroops slaughtered unarmed farmers and their wives and children. They tortured and mutilated victims. A litany of horror has emerged - a baby decapitated for the necklace he wore, a teenage boy for his tennis shoes. A former Tiger Force sergeant, William Doyle, told reporters of a scalp he took off a young nurse to decorate his rifle. The Blade investigation concluded that hundreds probably died. 'We weren't keeping count,' Ken Kerney, a former soldier who is now a California firefighter, told the paper. 'I knew it was wrong, but it was an acceptable practice.' Another, Rion Causey, then a 19-year-old medic and now a nuclear physicist, talked of how villagers were routinely shot: 'If they ran we shot them, and if they didn't run we shot them anyway.'

The killing spree was either ignored or encouraged by army top brass, but when an inquiry did take place it lasted for four years. No one was charged. Details were not released to the public, and are still classified. Bill Carpenter, a former special infantryman with Tiger Force, believes the self-styled death squad's former commander, Lt James Hawkins, should be held accountable. He 'thoroughly enjoyed killing' and, now retired to Florida, still defiantly defends his platoon's wartime activities. 'I don't regret nothing,' Hawkins has said.

But memories of the blood lust run deep in Vietnam. One farmer, Nguyen Dam, now 66, vividly remembered being attacked. 'Our people didn't deserve to die that way. We were farmers. We were not soldiers. We didn't hurt anyone,' he said.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1071214,00.html

Standard Operating Procedure.

The economy of memory:



The utter lack of accountability



The more things change, the more they remain the same.:(

Excuses, excuses, excess, it still was two women who were carrying the bombs into the Pet Market, no military value, no Americans present, just innocent Iraqis, the bombs were detonated by remote control.

Moslem Terrorist killing innocent Iraqis, using Mentally Disabled, now again justify this, or denounce it, nothing to do with the Americans in this attack, just innocent Iraqis, and innocent mentally disabled women, all Moslems, Murders, and murdered.

How US enemies lose their heads:

Paul Sledzik, an earnest young curator at the National Museum
of Health and Medicine in Washington, D.C., leads me into a large, spotless storage room, unlocks File Cabinet 24, and slides out the top
drawer. There they are: six human skulls. Keepsakes from the war that refuses to go away quietly. A cardboard divider, no different from what's normally used to ship grapefruit, keeps the skulls from banging
together like marbles."

We boiled the flesh off enemy skulls"

"These two are my favorites," Sledzik says. "I kind of go back and forth about which is the most interesting." http://www.slate.com/id/2442/

"Japanese skulls were much-envied trophies among U.S. Marines in the Pacific theater during World War II. The practice of collecting them apparently began after the bloody conflict on Guadalcanal, when the troops set up the skulls as ornaments or totems atop poles as a type of
warning. The Marines boiled the skulls and then used lye to remove any
residual flesh so they would be suitable as souvenirs. U.S. sailors cleaned their trophy skulls by putting them in nets and dragging them behind their vessels. Winfield Townley Scott wrote a wartime poem, 'The
U.S. Sailor with the Japanese Skull" that detailed the entire technique
of preserving the headskull as a souvenir. In 1943 Life magazine published the picture of a U.S. sailor's girlfriend contemplating a Japanese skull sent to her as a gift - with a note written on the top of the skull.

Referring to this practice, Edward L. Jones, a U.S. war correspondent in the Pacific wrote in the February 1946 Atlantic Magazine, "We boiled
the flesh off enemy skulls to make table ornaments for sweethearts, or
carved their bones into letter-openers." On occasion, these "Japanese trophy skulls" have confused police when they have turned up during murder investigations. It has been reported that when the remains of Japanese soldiers were repatriated from the Mariana Islands in 1984, sixty percent were missing their skulls."
http://www.slate.com/id/2442/

Lest We Forget:

http://www.radioislam.org/islam/english/toread/japskull.jpg

This "Picture of the Week" shows a beautiful blonde, 20 year old Natalie Nickerson from Phoenix, Arizona. She sits by her desk with pen in hand, dreamingly contemplating the skull of a killed Japanese that was sent to her by her American Navy lieutenant boyfriend.

:(

Source:
Kenneth V. Iserson, M.D., "Death to Dust: What happens to Dead Bodies?", Galen Press, Ltd. Tucson, AZ. 1994. p.382.


From:
"The Wartime Journals of Charles A. Lindbergh" published by Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Inc., New York, 1970


p.997
"A long line of such incidents parades before my mind: the story of our Marines firing on unarmed Japanese survivors who swam ashore on the beach at Midway; the accounts of our machine-gunning prisoners on a Hollandia airstrip; of the Australians pushing captured Japanese soldiers out of the transport planes which were taking them south over the New Guinea mountains ("the Aussies reported them as committing hara-kiri or 'resisting'"); of the shinbones cut, for letter openers and pen trays, from newly killed Japanese bodies on Noemfoor; of the young pilot who was "going to cream that Jap hospital one of these days"; of American soldiers poking through the mouths of Japanese corpses for gold-filled teeth ("the infantry's favorite occupation"); of Jap heads buried in ant-hills "to get them clean for souvenirs"; of bodies bulldozed to the road-side and dumped by the hundreds into shallow, unmarked graves ...to the approval of thousands of Americans who claim to stand for high, civilized ideals."


p.906
"They often bring back the thigh bones from the Japs they kill and make pen holders and paper knives and such things out of them."

p.880
"What is courage for us is fanaticism for him. We hold his examples of atrocity screamingly to the heavens while we cover up our own and condone them as just retribution for his acts.
I stand looking at the patch of scorched jungle, at the dark spots in the cliffs which mark the caves where the Japanese troops have taken cover. In that burned area, hidden under the surface of the ground, is the utmost suffering - hunger, despair, men dead and dying of wounds, carrying on for a country they love and for a cause in which they believe, not daring to surrender even if they wished to, because they know only too well that our soldiers would shoot them on sight even if they came out with their hands above their heads."

p.919
"Before the bodies in the hollow were "bulldozed over," the officer said, a number of our Marines went in among them, searching through their pockets and prodding around in their mouths for gold-filled teeth. Some of the Marines, he said, had a little sack in which they collected teeth with gold fillings. The officer said he had seen a number of Japanese bodies from which an ear or a nose had been cut off."Our boys cut them off to show their friends in fun, or to dry and take back to the States when they go. We found one Marine with a Japanese head. He was trying to get the ants to clean the flesh off the skull, but the odor got so bad we had to take it away from him." It is the same story everywhere I go."


p.996
"It seemed impossible that men - civilized men - could degenerate to such a level. Yet they had. ...it was we, Americans, who had done such things, we who claimed to stand for something different. We, who claimed that the German was defiling humanity in his treatment of the Jew, were doing the same thing in our treatment of the Jap. "They really are lower than beasts. Every one of 'em ought to be exterminated." How many times I heard that statement made by American officers in the Pacific! "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?""


p.881
"One prisoner was taken, according to the first report; but an infantry colonel told me later that no prisoners were taken at all. "Our boys just don't take prisoners.""


p.882
"Some of the bodies had been so badly torn apart that there were only fragments left. And as one of the officers with me said, "I see that the infantry have been up to their favorite occupation",i.e., knocking out all teeth that contain gold fillings for souvenirs."

Echoes of Abu Ghraib. Gawd knows what passes for humanity there.

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Bodies mutilated in Iraq attack
"The people of Falluja hanged some of the bodies on the old bridge like ... US military officials in Iraq say there are now an average of 26 attacks against ...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3585765.stm

Last Updated: Wednesday, 31 March, 2004, 18:23 GMT 19:23 UK

Bodies mutilated in Iraq attack

The bodies were dragged from the car and dismembered
Four contractors working for the US army have been killed and their bodies mutilated in the Iraqi city of Falluja.
The group were shot and burnt in their cars, before a cheering crowd dismembered the corpses and hung two of them from a bridge

The corpses were dragged from the wreckage and television pictures showed one burnt body being kicked and stamped on, while at least two were tied to cars and driven through the city, witnesses said.

Adults and children hacked the bodies to pieces, before lynching two of the charred remains from a bridge spanning the Euphrates River.

The Jawa Report: New Tucker and Menchaca Video: Bodies Desecrated ...
Sep 23, 2006 ... Near the end of the video, the two U.S. soldiers' bodies are burned. ... The terrorists in Iraq celebrate the desecration of the bodies of ...
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/184744.php

September 23, 2006
New Tucker and Menchaca Video: Bodies Desecrated by Terrorists
A new video released by the Mujahidin Shura Council of Iraq shows new footage of the desecration of the bodies of Thomas Tucker and Kristian Menchaca. The Jawa Report has obtained a copy of the video. Graphic Images and link to video below.

Their bodies were later recovered not far from where they had been kidnapped. The US military now says that their corpses were found tied together with a bomb between them. Three roadside bombs were planted around the bodies. The bodies had been decapitated.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/tucker_menchaca_desecrated_bodies1.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/tucker_menchaca_desecrated_bodies2.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/tucker_menchaca_desecrated_bodies4.jpg

Perlmutter - Mujahideen Desecration
"On November 14, 2004, U.S. marines found the body of a Caucasian woman on the street in Fallujah, Iraq. The body had long blonde hair, her legs and arms ...
http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu/ap1202/muja07.htm

Looks like US troops are busy. Guess we have to wait 20 years or so to hear how they did it.

Mutilation is Haram.

IRAQ BOMBINGS: The day of desecration: how bombs tore apart a

Independent, The (London), Mar 3, 2004 by Justin Huggler in Karbala

IT WAS the Shia's September 11: a massacre of men, women and children who tried helplessly to escape as suicide bombs exploded and mortars fell among packed crowds. Survivors scrambled desperately over the severed limbs of the dead that littered the streets.

It came on the holiest day in the Shia calendar, and millions of their fellow believers around the world watched it play out on their television screens. They watched as their holiest shrines were desecrated with the blood of the innocent. They watched as what was supposed to be a day of liberation - the first time for years that the Ashoura ceremony, which was banned by Saddam Hussein, was allowed to take place in Iraq - ended with the streets of Karbala littered with the bodies of women and children. At least 160 people were killed in attacks on Shia in Iraq yesterday, 85 of them in Karbala.

The images are indelible. I was 100m away from the first explosion, but you didn't have to be that close. Millions of Shia saw that first terrifying explosion, which sent a great burst of yellow fire bellying out over the roofs of Karbala; cameras were already filming the ceremonies. You could watch it all on the television news, just like on September 11.

Yes, very busy. Notice how such things NEVER happened in Iraq before US invasion, even though Saddam was such a horrible guy.

Makes you wonder if any of those Iraqi bodies are missing skulls, shinbones or thigh bones.

Looks like US troops are busy. Guess we have to wait 20 years or so to hear how they did it.

Mutilation is Haram.

Yes S.A.M. from the Al Jazera New;

The Jawa Report: Maj Troy Gilbert's Body Desecrated in Video
March 16, 2007. Maj Troy Gilbert's Body Desecrated in Video. Via Centcom:. SOUTHWEST ASIA — Recent news reports ... Iraq Adopts U.S. Immigration Policies ...
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/186965.php


http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/american_soldiers_desecrated.jpg


http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/tucker_menchaca_desecration_video.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/tucker_menchaca_desecrated_behedaed_video.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/tucker_menchaca_beheaded.jpg

This is very interesting indeed.

If I remember correctly SAM, you spent a few pages last year trying to convince me (and maybe youreself) that the Arab Muslims, when they conquered the Persians (or anyone else for that matter) didn't go on any sort of killing, burning, looting, raping, slaughtering, stabbing, stealing, murdering spree.

Why when thems did it they's did it the so nicest way. The purdy Persians just go themselves so lucky thems did.

This is War and these are the bestial bloody actions that war brings out in men.


This is why I am against the Iraq war. Why I say all war of aggression is evil. But, ooo hooo hooo my heads in my arse. I live in dream dream land for making such obvious statements - that is if I remember your assessment correctly.


The American GIs had no right treating Japanese in the way they did. Regardless of how they may have been treated. And the Iraqis had not right strapping bombs onto mentally ill women. And actually, this is not something new. I personally watch an SBS special where the Iraqis were putting a gun into the hands of a completely mentally retarded man and pushing out first to take pop shots at the Americans. This man was so slow he was giggling right along with them. He had no idea what he was doing other than it was making some guys happy for him to do it. He's probably shot dead by now.

War = Sucks
Michael

The link for Vietnamese who strapped bombs to their children?

And the SBS special too, please?

Yes S.A.M. from the Al Jazera New;

The Jawa Report: Maj Troy Gilbert's Body Desecrated in Video
March 16, 2007. Maj Troy Gilbert's Body Desecrated in Video. Via Centcom:. SOUTHWEST ASIA — Recent news reports ... Iraq Adopts U.S. Immigration Policies ...
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/186965.php


http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/american_soldiers_desecrated.jpg


http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/tucker_menchaca_desecration_video.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/tucker_menchaca_desecrated_behedaed_video.jpg

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/tucker_menchaca_beheaded.jpg

Probably wanted to desert, poor chap.

But suicide bombers, while "willing," are often taken advantage of by the terrorists, too. It's not as if there is a rational argument in favor of these sort of suicide attacks.

Not quite true - it's perfectly rational given what these people believe. They needn't be dullwitted, or naïve, or even being taken advantage of (their handlers may be acting in "good" faith.) Indeed, if that were the case you would expect suicide bombers to be poor, uneducated and with bad social networks (compared to their society at large) and this is simply not the case.

No, they only have to believe some very improbable things about the universe, and more importantly, about the purported afterlife, in order for their behaviour to be completely rational. Faith supplies this, and it is by far the parsimonious explanation for their actions. We (in the west) need to stop digging for "deeper" causes and accept that these people actually believe what they say they believe.

Of course, in this particular instance, the suicide bombers do appear to have been taken advantage of, in an extraordinarily callous and cruel way.

Yeah it sucks to have to back up your accusations with facts.

You seem to be implying that the bombing didn't happen, or that if it did, it wasn't Al Qaeda, or at least that they weren't mentally handicapped. Right? Assuming (without prejudice) that you haven't been driven completely insane by that intellectual virus called faith, I can only conclude that you suggest one of the latter possibilities.

Now, who the fuck cares if the story has some elements that BenTheMan isn't able to personally back up with facts? Are you so completely devoid of empathy that the only thing you can draw from the event is an opportunity to score an utterly unimportant rhetorical point?

alQueda has sunk to a new low. Who thought that was even possible? :(

You seem to be implying that the bombing didn't happen, or that if it did, it wasn't Al Qaeda, or at least that they weren't mentally handicapped. Right? Assuming (without prejudice) that you haven't been driven completely insane by that intellectual virus called faith, I can only conclude that you suggest one of the latter possibilities.

Now, who the fuck cares if the story has some elements that BenTheMan isn't able to personally back up with facts? Are you so completely devoid of empathy that the only thing you can draw from the event is an opportunity to score an utterly unimportant rhetorical point?

If only all of us could have the empathy to be occupiers and demonisers all at once.

Kids, handicapped women, fluffy bunnies, what could they possibly do next? :rolleyes:

alQueda has sunk to a new low. Who thought that was even possible? :(

Dunno, but if you pay an extremist $10 a day to find out, he'll find something never fear. :)

Not quite true - it's perfectly rational given what these people believe. They needn't be dullwitted, or naïve, or even being taken advantage of (their handlers may be acting in "good" faith.) Indeed, if that were the case you would expect suicide bombers to be poor, uneducated and with bad social networks (compared to their society at large) and this is simply not the case.

No, they only have to believe some very improbable things about the universe, and more importantly, about the purported afterlife, in order for their behaviour to be completely rational. Faith supplies this, and it is by far the parsimonious explanation for their actions. We (in the west) need to stop digging for "deeper" causes and accept that these people actually believe what they say they believe.

Of course, in this particular instance, the suicide bombers do appear to have been taken advantage of, in an extraordinarily callous and cruel way.

Strange then that the FACTS, those pesky things, show suicide bombers are more likely to be educated rational and secular. Duh!:rolleyes:

http://usinfo.state.gov/journals/itps/0806/ijpe/sageman.htm

Like the marxist LTTE of Sri Lanka, you know, the guys that have been doing it since the 70s.

We don't pay evil muslim terrorists squat. They get their desire for death/destruction/violence from their Koran.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

Strange then that the FACTS, those pesky things, show suicide bombers are more likely to be educated rational and secular. Duh!

Suicide bombers are rational? WTF? :eek:

We don't pay evil muslim terrorists squat. They get their desire for death/destruction/violence from their Koran.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

The US pays Sunni extremists in Iraq $10 a day, not only that, they also provide them with arms. This is strange because many of these extremists like those of the Anbar province were sympathetic to Saddam while being against both the current government as well the US forces. After receiving the monies, these groups have committed genocide on Shia villages. The US knows this, since Americans camp out in Shia houses emptied by the Sunni extremists.

Suicide bombers are rational? WTF? :eek:

Yes. They have to be, you would not give a mad man a job that requires attention, commitment and the ability to carry it through. The rationale behind suicide bombing is very simple. It is the only way small disaffected groups can fight a powerful enemy. With no army, no funds or very little access to arms, a suicide bomber is the ultimate killing machine. Cheap. easy to make and causing maximum impact and damage (witness 9/11, all it required was 15 men). The LTTE has a cadre of 400 young men and women, some of them barely teens, available at any time to carry out suicide bombing activities.


To think they are simple irrational men and women is to underestimate them and to ignore evidence that will allow people to overcome them. Although in 30 years, Sri Lanka has yet to find a foolproof way.

Strange then that the FACTS, those pesky things, show suicide bombers are more likely to be educated rational and secular. Duh!:rolleyes:

Dear S.A.M.,

Here's an anecdote I heard the other day: A group of high school students were in a gallery, admiring a dramatic portrait. When one of them asked who the picture portrayed, another ventured that it looked like Napoleon. A third student, who had managed a peak at the title, then confidently opined: "No, it isn't - it's Bonaparte!" And there was much amusement.

You might wonder what relevance this has, so I'll say it again: "They needn't be dullwitted, or naïve, or even being taken advantage of (their handlers may be acting in "good" faith.) Indeed, if that were the case you would expect suicide bombers to be poor, uneducated and with bad social networks (compared to their society at large) and this is simply not the case."

To wit: most suicide bombers are not poor, uneducated or have no social network. Have a :rolleyes: to celebrate repeating my point and for embarrassing yourself by disparaging it.

(Except for that "secular" part. That's, of course, wrong, as most suicide bombers these days are decidedly non-secular. Yes, that's what the "FACTS", in capital letters, with dramatic music, and spoken with a booming voice, suggest.)

So, there.

Love,
funkstar

P.S. Isn't scoring a rhetorical point just important? One could almost forget, in the gleeful fun, that this thread is actually about the horrible mutilation and death of tens of innocent iraqis in a particularly nasty suicide bombing. If only one could callously brush aside such barbary with a sarcastic remark, writing it off as a response to our own (well, the wests, anyway) evil.

Oh, wait. You just did.

Again facts do not bear you out. Your opinion does not constitute FACTS, I'm afraid.

Apart from the well known work by Marc Sageman and Robert Pape, and the BBC documentary that explores the psychology of the London suicide bombers, let me introduce you to research conducted by an ex-CIA agent.

Baer maintains that suicide bombing was marketed by the Iranians to the Lebanese in the 1980s. Despite the tendency to explain this tactic as a function of Shi’ite fanaticism, Baer makes clear that it was used across the board by the Lebanese resistance, including the secular Syrian National Socialist Party. When Baer asks its leader if his members expected to gain entry into Paradise after blowing themselves up, he shrugs his shoulders and says that their Paradise would be on Earth, a liberated Lebanon.

The role of secular activists in the Lebanese resistance is confirmed by suicide bombing expert Robert Pape in an op-ed article that appears in the August 3, 2006 NY Times:

“In writing my book on suicide attackers, I had researchers scour Lebanese sources to collect martyr videos, pictures and testimonials and the biographies of the Hezbollah bombers. Of the 41, we identified the names, birth places and other personal data for 38. Shockingly, only eight were Islamic fundamentalists. Twenty-seven were from leftist political groups like the Lebanese Communist Party and the Arab Socialist Union. Three were Christians, including a female high-school teacher with a college degree. All were born in Lebanon.

“What these suicide attackers — and their heirs today — shared was not a religious or political ideology but simply a commitment to resisting a foreign occupation. Nearly two decades of Israeli military presence did not root out Hezbollah. The only thing that has proven to end suicide attacks, in Lebanon and elsewhere, is withdrawal by the occupying force.”

After leaving Lebanon, Baer travels to Gaza and the West Bank where he interviews Hamas activists who differ significantly from their counterparts in Iran and Lebanon, where the suicide bomber functioned more or less as a Kamikazi fighter in combat situations involving unequal forces. Hamas operated less against the Israeli army than it did against Israeli citizens in a kind of vendetta.

To Baer’s credit, he makes clear that the Hamas campaign was inspired by the February 1994 attack of Zionist fanatic Baruch Goldstein on unarmed worshippers in a Hebron mosque. Forty were shot to death by Goldstein, a transplanted Brooklynite and follower of Jewish fascist Meir Kahane. In the ensuing riots by Palestinians, another 53 were killed by Israelis and hundreds wounded.

In an effort to break the cycle of suicide bombing, Israel has been constructing a massive fence to pen in Palestinians. Baer concludes the film with the mordant observation that as long as there is despair and inequality, there will be suicide bombers.

http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2006/08/03/cult-of-the-suicide-bomber/

Reminds me of the would-be 15 year old suicide bomber in Palestine. Here are some excerpts of an interview with him:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3899015.stm

JR: Were you scared of dying?

Hussam: No. I'm not afraid of death.

JR: Why not?

Hussam: Nobody is going to live forever. We're all going to die.

JR: But you were only 15 years old at the time.

Hussam: I wanted to be relieved of school.

JR: What was the main reason for you deciding to become a suicide bomber? The one reason in particular.

Hussam: The reason was because my friend was killed.

The second reason I did it is because I didn't want to go to school.

My parents forced me to go to school and I didn't feel like going.

JR: Are you saying that one of the reasons you wanted to become a suicide bomber was because you didn't like your teacher?

Hussam: That and because of my friend Sabih, who was killed.

JR: It seems extreme that if you don't like your teacher it could partially propel you towards murder and suicide.

Hussam: The thing is my parents forced me to go to school and I didn't want to go.

So I used to go there and run away. Then I had problems with the teachers. The principal took me to the police because I got into a fight with the teachers.


It’s really sad to see simple, innocent people who cannot even think straight being manipulated into committing such attacks.

Back to the Baghdad market bombings – I really can't understand this attack. Was it targeting Shias? Sunnis? The authorities are quick to blame Al-Qaeda but what are they basing it on? I don't think Al-Qaeda have even claimed responsibility, something they usually do.

The link for Vietnamese who strapped bombs to their children?

And the SBS special too, please?There is no way I have the time to look up those references.

I'd rather retract the statement.

(how does one even think of looking up a particular scene on a News doco on SBS?!?!?)

But not the statement reflecting on the interesting fact that you understand how Americans can act like animals yet seem blind to the fact that so did Muslims when they conquered the Persians, Byzantine, North Africans, Egyptians, Syrians, etc.. . The biggest trick war criminals invented was the act of romanticizing war. Americans defended America and freed Japanese. Arabs defended some dirt in the middle of nowhere and freed the oppressed Persian peasantry.... :puke:

There is no way I have the time to look up those references.

I'd rather retract the statement.

(how does one even think of looking up a particular scene on a News doco on SBS?!?!?)

But not the statement reflecting on the interesting fact that you understand how Americans can act like animals yet seem blind to the fact that so did Muslims when they conquered the Persians, Byzantine, North Africans, Egyptians, Syrians, etc.. . The biggest trick war criminals invented was the act of romanticizing war. Americans defended America and freed Japanese. Arabs defended some dirt in the middle of nowhere and freed the oppressed Persian peasantry.... :puke:

Lets just say that there are no native Persian reservations in Iran.

Do remember to let me know if you ever find a reference for Vietnamese tying bombs to their children, since you used it with a lot of certainty.

Lets just say that there are no native Persian reservations in Iran.Ltes just say their native language and religion is gone.

Ltes just say their native language and religion is gone.

Lets just say so has yours and mine, but we're not the same as an aboriginal or a native American. And neither are the Iranians. :)

Do remember to let me know if you ever find a reference for Vietnamese tying bombs to their children, since you used it with a lot of certainty.Firstly I'd like to note that Americans did just as bad and just as much. American people are no different from any other people. In war men act like animals.

This is a comment from a vet. Is it true? I don't know but it is just as I heard so maybe - maybe not.


..the enemy [Vietnamese] would booby trap little children sometimes by rigging up grenades under the childs arms once the child puts his/her arms up to a american soldier the pins would be pulled ,killing the soldier...


Royal Australian Regiment - Service in Vietnam (http://www.ausvets.powerup.com.au/rarviet.htm)

We lived like this because we were up against a tough, resourceful, tenacious and brave enemy we called "Charlie." Whether he was the local village Viet Cong (VC) we called "Victor Charles" or the main force North Vietnamese Army (NVA), we fought them both, and he was good. He stood about five feet six inches tall and weighed about eight stone wringing wet, but in my opinion he was one of the best guerilla fighters in the world.

He was a master of camouflage, concealment and surprise. He dug into holes, faded into the jungle, or submerged for hours in a rice paddy breathing through a bamboo tube. He moved a lot at night and was always agonisingly hard to find.

He was also deadly and treacherous. He would bury village people alive when they refused to help them or to pay rice taxes. He would employ assassination and torture whenever it served him. And he would kill his own wounded to keep them silent.

We could never relax because he was everywhere. He was sometimes farmer, or civilian or woman or child, and he had many, many tricks: Bombs hidden on a womans or baby's body, fruit injected with snake venom, ice for drinks filled with slivers of glass, acid in Coca-Cola.

And they were not afraid to die.



Anyway, you get the drift.




It must be odd for you? OR perhaps terribly romantic? The valour of those courageous Arab Muslims as they conquered... freed the entire populations of the Persians and Byzantine empires. Bringing them peace and the message of hope, of God, of the Last Prophet and the miracle called the Qur'an.


Keep telling yourself that SAM, in the real world women were cruelly raped, men murdered and grandmothers hacked to peaces.


Michael

Ah so it was the vets who said that. I don't suppose there was any independent confirmation?

Did these guys also tell about what they did to the Vietnamese?

Let's be clear. I agree that Americans committed war crimes. They were cruel, they raped, they plundered and they murdered. How about the Muslim Arabs that attacked the Persians? Where they cruel SAM? Did they rape women SAM? Did they plunder the hard work of the Persians? Well?

You'll notice the Vet speaks of the Vietnamese as this:
tough, resourceful, tenacious and brave enemy
He was a master of camouflage, concealment and surprise
in my opinion he was one of the best guerilla fighters in the world.

Sounds to me like someone telling the truth AND perhaps if I wanted to do a thesis on the subject I could find many more citations from both Vietnamese and Vets.

That really wasn't my point. My point is how I find the whole BULL SHIT notion that War is somehow a peaceful process where the good guys where white hats and the bad guys where black - SICK. It's part of the reason we are in a war right now. People like to romanticize war and make up fairy tales about how the good guys saved the day. They didn't. Whether you believe it or not, Muslims murdered, pillaged and raped their way across the lands of their neighbors.

Maybe you should think about Mongolian history in the ME and then once you get it firmly in your head replace Mongolians with Alexander or Julius or Arab Muslims - because THAT is what it takes to win all that territory.

grab head and pull REAL hard.

Michael

Iranians still rule Iran. They want to be Muslims. Why is that so hard for you to see?

Where are the Mongols?

Michael, you have seemingly little to no knowledge about the fall of the Sassanid Empire. The Arabs didn't plunder and loot their Kingdom, or rape their women. In fact, lots of people cooperated with the invasion, because their Empire was crumbling, and was at a point of bankruptcy. The Persian Empire was dissolving into small feudal kingdoms, mostly because they were tired of constant wars with the Byzantines.

In any event, I can't see how you could compare the Arab-Sassanid war to the Vietnam war. Sure, they're both "wars", but the similarities end there.

Oh please - PLEASE!!!

Just try to think about this:
The Mongolians liberated the Chinese - Lucky them! Anyone can see - the Chinese Golden age followed soon after. Lots of people probably cooperated with the invasion! For, you see, the millennial old Chinese Empire was crumbling sooooo it only made sense to hand it over to an occupying force of nomads! Hey the Chinese were at a point of bankruptcy so giving it over to horse herdsmen was the obvious logical thing to do!!!:bugeye:

Please tell me you are not so stupid.

Then why make the SAME stupid argument about Persians and Byzantine. It's asinine.

Wanna buy a bridge? It is in NEW York and I can get it to ya real real cheap.



Anyway, I personally find romanticizing war an insult to the people who were raped, plundered and murdered. They would too.

We'll leave it at that,
Michael


PS SAM nice to see you still pushing the white man's burden. Good move that one.

The Mongol invasions of Northern China were completely different. These invasions were simply using the population as pincushions (seriously), stealing all things of material value, and burning down what they no longer had use for.

Completely different. Anyway, this is the World Events section, so I feel a little uneasy going into detail about history.

who gave us plastic surgery? Was it the Persians or the Indians?

Indians, of course, but it probably came to Europe through the Persians.

The knowledge of rhinoplasty spread from India to Arabia and Persia and from there to Egypt and Italy in the 15th century. The first translation of Sushruta Samhita was in Latin by Hessler in 1844 and in Arabic by Ibn Abi Usaybia (1203-1269 AD) and later into German by Vellurs. Bhishagratna translated it in English in 1907

http://www.jpgmonline.com/article.asp?issn=0022-3859;year=2002;volume=48;issue=1;spage=76;epage=8; aulast=Rana

No wonder Indians invented plastic surgery. :D

The Mongol invasions of Northern China were completely different. yes I see completely different. Yup :bugeye: now about that bridge in NY

No wonder Indians invented plastic surgery. :D

Here is an interesting story:

Although Britishers lived in India for a long time, they were not aware of Indian Rhinoplasty till 1793. Mr. James Findlay and Mr. Thomas Crusoe who were surgeons at the British Residency in Poona in 1793 witnessed the operation on “Cowasjee” and reported the details of the operation in the Madras Gazette. The same operation on Cowasjee was later published in Gentleman’s magazine, London, Oct. 1794 by a letter from Mr. Lucas[2] as follows: “Cowasjee, a Mahratta of the caste of the husbandmen, he was a bullock driver with the English Army in the war of 1792, and was made prisoner by Tipu Sultan, who cut off his nose and one of his hands. He joined the Bombay Army near Seringapatam. For about 1 year he remained without a nose, when he had a new one put on by a man of the Brickmaker (potter’s) caste near Poona”.

Well Michael the Arabs liberated the Byzantine and Persians and Egyptians and Spanish! Anyone can see - the "Islamic" Golden age followed soon after. Lots of people cooperated with the invasion! For, you see, the millennial old Empires were crumbling sooooo it only made sense to hand it over to an occupying force of nomads! Hey the people were at a point of bankruptcy so giving everything that had over to horse herdsmen who couldn't read nor write was the obvious logical thing to do!!!

pfff just stupid....

Sorta like the American economy based on the Arab petrodollar.

Here is an interesting story:

Cool story. My comment was only a joke, so take no offense! :p

Well Michael the Arabs liberated the Byzantine and Persians and Egyptians and Spanish! Anyone can see - the "Islamic" Golden age followed soon after. Lots of people cooperated with the invasion! For, you see, the millennial old Empires were crumbling sooooo it only made sense to hand it over to an occupyin