Is it possible to understand God? Assuming that God is omnipotent and omniscient, is it possible to understand Him? Well, a lot of chistians speak as though they know God personally. That sounds a little bit arrogant to me. One must be equally omnipotent and omniscient in order to truly understand God. If you are not one with God, you can't understand Him, can you? Now, we only see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face.... from that scripture I deduct that we don't know God now, but someday we will, and I presume that only in death one can truly be one with God. Therefore, it is only possible to truly understand God when you die.

Here are a few claims that chirstians often make that I question:
1) "Acceptance of Jesus" as a requirement to heaven
Now, the reason why this bugs me is that an all-knowing loving God would have to be quite illogical to send a good person to hell. In fact, an all-powerful loving God should be able to prevent people to go to hell, or at least be able to take them out of there, once they arrive there! Why would He let anyone suffer in hell? Of course, people have choices. But while in life some people may doubt there is a heaven and hell, once in hell, nobody would doubt and I suppose anyone in hell would want to get out of hell. So how on earth would God let good people suffer in hell?

Now, I do understand the logic behind the above premise (that is accepting Jesus). Of course, because nobody is perfect, therefore, one must accept Jesus instead of taking the requirement of being perfect. However, considering the apparent nature of God, the above premise would not be logical. If God is forgiving and all-powerful, why can't He just take people ot of hell. Hell, I would go to hell to rescue people. Why not? It's not like I'm staying there forever, if God is with me. Why not rescue people from hell? I don't understand that. If God is like that I truly don't understand Him. And quite frankly, if He cannot help people in hell, then He is not all-powerful, and I would be a little bit disappointed. But, truly, either God is all-powerful and not loving or He is not all-powerful and loving. Otherwise, He would logically be able to help people, getting them out hell.

Another problem with accepting Jesus is that it is hardly fair to send murderers who accepted Jesus to heaven when good people who have done great charities but never heard of Chirst would be sent to hell. That's not wise, not loving and not all powerful. This isn't logical considering the apparent nature of God.

Another thing that tells me this requirement is not only illogical but wrong is the scriptures that say that many who are assumed to be going to heaven will not end up there and many who are assumed to not go there will be there. That tells me that not everyone knows the real requirements for heaven.

I think that the meaning of "accepting Jesus" is where the problem resides. I will get to that shortly.

2) Babies go to hell?
From the above requirement, one can deduct that babies go to hell. Why? Because no baby is capable of "accepting Jesus" before they die! This is just wrong. For an all-powerful loving God... to send babies to hell... I mean.... that's nonsense.

3) The "Kingdom" of Heaven
A lot of Chistians take that literally and claim that heaven has a castle and palaces and other material "goodies". I honestly don't think that make much sense, and would be quite surprised if that was the case. Also, that is a bit stuck in the past. Why would God get stuck in the past with Kingdoms and so on. I think this is just a metaphor to heaven as ruled by God. I think that chirstians who believe that are often materialistic and enjoy having things (I think it was americans who reinforced that belief). I don't believe God is materialistic in nature. I think God doesn't care about materialism like we do (why would He?). And even if we do and He wants to please us, I don't think that would make a lot of sense either, because materialism often come swith greed, which is a sin. I don't think we would need anything in heaven either, so materialism in heaven is completely not a requirement.

4) The image of God
An old man? Why!? If He is all powerful and He exists forever, He should look young! And that's IF He looks at all like us, because that doesn't make much sense either! If He's everywhere, He shouldn't have a visual image like us.



Now... back to point number 1, I think "accepting Jesus in your heart" would be more like agreeing with his teachings, whether then saying out loud that you accept Jesus. If you accept his teachings, you will try to live by them and you will "carry the cross" with Him (that is, trying to make the world a better place and taking the consequences). Otherwise, one may accept Jesus and then murder someone then go to heave. Where's the logic in that? If you accept his teachings, your heart will be purified and you will be able to go to heaven, even if you are not perfect. It's a commitment to God. Not "I accept Jesus as my Lord and saviour". Imagine that. Jesus seeing a whole bunch of murderers going to heaven just because the said "I accept Jesus". Nonsense. As it is written, many who are thought to go to heaven will not, and many who are not, will be there. Because, logically, anyone who is good in their heart follows God and, therefore, should logically go to heaven.

Anyways... that was long....

As I said, I don't claim to know God. This is just logical reasoning based on what's written in the Bible.

If god is omniscient then he is an immortal puppet who knows what he will do for every second of eternity and can do nothing about it. If he is omnipotent, he can change that but then he is not omniscient as he didn't know he'd do that.

As to the classic image of god, being all powerful he is one of a kind so has no equal, no friends and can love no one. Everyone and everything is as far below him as viruses are below us. He never gets tired so knows no fatigue. He can never be ill, never suffer. What he wants is so he never wants anything. He can never know hate because what he hates cannot survive as can nothing unless he allows it. He can never know want because anything he wants, is!

All conventional matter and energy we know of has very strict limitations so god cannot be made of them. We have more in common with a brick wall than we have with god and he has absolutely nothing in common with us. Anyone who thinks they can share anything with such an impossible being is deluded.

Is it possible to understand God? Assuming that God is omnipotent and omniscient, is it possible to understand Him?

Not totally. But God allows one to understand certain things at certain times. One does not need to totally understand God.



If you are not one with God, you can't understand Him, can you? Now, we only see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face.... from that scripture I deduct that we don't know God now, but someday we will, and I presume that only in death one can truly be one with God. Therefore, it is only possible to truly understand God when you die.

A dim picture can reveal a shape, an outline. But you are right we will not have that clear picture until we die.



Here are a few claims that chirstians often make that I question:
1) "Acceptance of Jesus" as a requirement to heaven
Now, the reason why this bugs me is that an all-knowing loving God would have to be quite illogical to send a good person to hell. In fact, an all-powerful loving God should be able to prevent people to go to hell, or at least be able to take them out of there, once they arrive there! Why would He let anyone suffer in hell? Of course, people have choices. But while in life some people may doubt there is a heaven and hell, once in hell, nobody would doubt and I suppose anyone in hell would want to get out of hell. So how on earth would God let good people suffer in hell?

Now, I do understand the logic behind the above premise (that is accepting Jesus). Of course, because nobody is perfect, therefore, one must accept Jesus instead of taking the requirement of being perfect. However, considering the apparent nature of God, the above premise would not be logical. If God is forgiving and all-powerful, why can't He just take people ot of hell. Hell, I would go to hell to rescue people. Why not? It's not like I'm staying there forever, if God is with me. Why not rescue people from hell? I don't understand that. If God is like that I truly don't understand Him. And quite frankly, if He cannot help people in hell, then He is not all-powerful, and I would be a little bit disappointed. But, truly, either God is all-powerful and not loving or He is not all-powerful and loving. Otherwise, He would logically be able to help people, getting them out hell.



I will answer with an analogy.

A Judge in a human court one day has to sit on a case that involves one of Her daughters. At the end of the trial the jury declares the daughter guilty. Now the Judge must pass a sentence, in this case a mandatory sentence of the death penalty. So the Judge who indeed loves her daughter has to pass a sentence of death upon her daughter because if she does not then she will undermine the system of justice and show herself to be corrupt and nepotistic. So one can indeed love someone and still pass sentence upon them.



Another problem with accepting Jesus is that it is hardly fair to send murderers who accepted Jesus to heaven when good people who have done great charities but never heard of Chirst would be sent to hell. That's not wise, not loving and not all powerful. This isn't logical considering the apparent nature of God.

If one steals a cookie out of their mothers cookie jar than one is guilty of sin and is destined to the lake of fire.

If one builds a home made nuclear device and detonates it and kills hundreds of thousands of people and contaminates million of others condemning them to the rest of their lives of suffering then they have sinned and are destined to the lake of fire.

God is perfect. He will only exist with perfection in eternity. All people are imperfect therefore all mankind fall short of what is required to exist with God in eternity.

Good and Bad to God are absolute terms.

Good and Bad to humans are relative terms.


2) Babies go to hell?
From the above requirement, one can deduct that babies go to hell. Why? Because no baby is capable of "accepting Jesus" before they die! This is just wrong. For an all-powerful loving God... to send babies to hell... I mean.... that's nonsense.

People are going to the Lake of fire because they are not innocent. They have come to the knowledge of Good and evil and use both in their lives. Babies are innocent and have not come to the knowledge of good and evil.

Therefore they Do Not Need a Redeemer.


3) The "Kingdom" of Heaven
A lot of Chistians take that literally and claim that heaven has a castle and palaces and other material "goodies". I honestly don't think that make much sense, and would be quite surprised if that was the case. Also, that is a bit stuck in the past. Why would God get stuck in the past with Kingdoms and so on. I think this is just a metaphor to heaven as ruled by God. I think that chirstians who believe that are often materialistic and enjoy having things (I think it was americans who reinforced that belief). I don't believe God is materialistic in nature. I think God doesn't care about materialism like we do (why would He?). And even if we do and He wants to please us, I don't think that would make a lot of sense either, because materialism often come swith greed, which is a sin. I don't think we would need anything in heaven either, so materialism in heaven is completely not a requirement.

Greed will not exist in eternity with God. The scriptures reveal that upon the resurrection those who will be with God for eternity will have their minds changed. We will not suffer anymore from the effects of greed.

The Kingdom of God exists now in the minds of those who have accepted Jesus. But in the future these people will be resurrected into a real Kingdom of God ruled by Jesus.

So the kingdom of God is both a Kingdom of the Mind and in the future a Physical Kingdom on earth.




4) The image of God
An old man? Why!? If He is all powerful and He exists forever, He should look young! And that's IF He looks at all like us, because that doesn't make much sense either! If He's everywhere, He shouldn't have a visual image like us.

LOL Those images are the creation of false religion. many of them are copies of old pagan images of the old greek gods. Same with the images of Jesus you will see. None of them come from true Christians.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Just a brief point for now:


Now, the reason why this bugs me is that an all-knowing loving God would have to be quite illogical to send a good person to hell.

There is, in fact, a Christian scholar named Jack J. Blanco who stirred up his own brethren with a trendy kind of book called a "Bible paraphrase". These are exactly what they sound like. "Once upon a time, God created Heaven and Earth, and then ... and then ... and then ...." The idea, of course, is to make the Bible more appealing, to present it in a vernacular form.

Now, this idea is controversial enough, and only gets around the bit about changing jots and tittles and iotas, or whatever, by being intended as a supplement. In other words, the paraphrases are supposed to tell you what the Bible means.

Thus, some were taken aback by Blanco's The Clear Word paraphrase, when in Genesis 3 (one of my favorite conundra in the Bible), Blanco gave away the point that the whole thing is a racket.

Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" -- therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.

(Genesis 3.22-23, RSV (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=Genesis&chapno=3&startverse=22&endverse=23))

Three of my favorite questions about the Bible are wrapped up in this one little bit.

(1) Who is God talking to?
(2) Who is "us"?
(3) Why is God so worried that man could become like, well, whoever "us" is?

Blanco hands over a strange answer. I'm not sure what he was trying to prove. But God is talking to Jesus. "Us" refers to the aspects of the trinity. Everything is going according to God's plan.

Seriously, sounds like a racket. Where you're tripping up, TS, might be on words like "loving God".

It sounds like a con. No wonder Blanco's fellows murmured to hubbub.

(I no longer have regular access to a copy of that book, so cannot at this time offer the direct transcription of those verses.)

I will answer with an analogy.

A Judge in a human court one day has to sit on a case that involves one of Her daughters. At the end of the trial the jury declares the daughter guilty. Now the Judge must pass a sentence, in this case a mandatory sentence of the death penalty. So the Judge who indeed loves her daughter has to pass a sentence of death upon her daughter because if she does not then she will undermine the system of justice and show herself to be corrupt and nepotistic. So one can indeed love someone and still pass sentence upon them.

This is most likely an invalid analogy. Do you have proof that the law of any country actually allows that (close) relatives are involved in a case like that?
AFAIK, another judge would be assigned to the case.

If one steals a cookie out of their mothers cookie jar than one is guilty of sin and is destined to the lake of fire.

If one builds a home made nuclear device and detonates it and kills hundreds of thousands of people and contaminates million of others condemning them to the rest of their lives of suffering then they have sinned and are destined to the lake of fire.
Good thing I don't like cookies as much as I like building homemade nukes. :rolleyes:

Not totally. But God allows one to understand certain things at certain times. One does not need to totally understand God.
And one does not need to totally understand a computer. But if one little piece is missing from the computer, it might not work at all. Likewise, it is very important to fully know God, otherwise, most of what we know is based on speculations!

I will answer with an analogy.

A Judge in a human court one day has to sit on a case that involves one of Her daughters. At the end of the trial the jury declares the daughter guilty. Now the Judge must pass a sentence, in this case a mandatory sentence of the death penalty. So the Judge who indeed loves her daughter has to pass a sentence of death upon her daughter because if she does not then she will undermine the system of justice and show herself to be corrupt and nepotistic. So one can indeed love someone and still pass sentence upon them.
But the judge is not all powerful, however. Truly, what would take for an atheist to believe in God? How about going to hell then be raised from the dead? Why doesn't God briefly shows hell to unbelievers and then send them to heaven? Don't you think the unbelievers would start believing once they are in hell? If God can send Jesus to hell then bring him back, why can't he do that with unbelievers? Isn't Him all-powerful anyways?

If God is loving AND all-powerful, He must be able to save everyone. It seems you forgot He's all-powerful...

I've prayed this to God before, and I'm telling you... if I end up in heaven and there is even one soul in hell, I will go to hell and rescue that soul.

If one steals a cookie out of their mothers cookie jar than one is guilty of sin and is destined to the lake of fire.

If one builds a home made nuclear device and detonates it and kills hundreds of thousands of people and contaminates million of others condemning them to the rest of their lives of suffering then they have sinned and are destined to the lake of fire.

God is perfect. He will only exist with perfection in eternity. All people are imperfect therefore all mankind fall short of what is required to exist with God in eternity.

Good and Bad to God are absolute terms.

Good and Bad to humans are relative terms.
How can a perfect being create imperfect things? Why would He do that, if He can choose to make them perfect? We must be perfect, even though in OUR terms we are not. We ARE perfect and the whole universe is perfect because God's will is paramount and can never be broken. He must have planned for all this, otherwise He is not omnipotent... unless He has elected not to use His powers...

People are going to the Lake of fire because they are not innocent. They have come to the knowledge of Good and evil and use both in their lives. Babies are innocent and have not come to the knowledge of good and evil.

Therefore they Do Not Need a Redeemer.
Well, that IS a good answer.... but a lot of christians would disagree....

Greed will not exist in eternity with God. The scriptures reveal that upon the resurrection those who will be with God for eternity will have their minds changed. We will not suffer anymore from the effects of greed.

The Kingdom of God exists now in the minds of those who have accepted Jesus. But in the future these people will be resurrected into a real Kingdom of God ruled by Jesus.

So the kingdom of God is both a Kingdom of the Mind and in the future a Physical Kingdom on earth.
I don't think Christians truly live in heaven at the moment, quite frankly....
I know I don't... :shrug:

LOL Those images are the creation of false religion. many of them are copies of old pagan images of the old greek gods. Same with the images of Jesus you will see. None of them come from true Christians.
Sure, but a lot of christians believe in an old God....

Three of my favorite questions about the Bible are wrapped up in this one little bit.

(1) Who is God talking to?
(2) Who is "us"?
(3) Why is God so worried that man could become like, well, whoever "us" is?

Blanco hands over a strange answer. I'm not sure what he was trying to prove. But God is talking to Jesus. "Us" refers to the aspects of the trinity. Everything is going according to God's plan.
Yeah... that bugs me too. I've heard that answer as well... The answer is basically saying "we are a monotheistic religion".

I think the whole genesis is a lot more profound then most people understand. It seems to speak a lot of psychology. The tree of knowledge and the tree of life seem a lot more like symbols then literal trees. To me, I feel as though we have lost our innocence and we now must go on to live and to one day become like God. If you think of human development, the moment that children start losing their "innocence" is when they start speaking. Because once language is used, it seems like they become more aware of the world around them and start understanding the world. The beginning of understanding is the end of innocence. The curious thing is that without laguage we cannot communicate with each other nor truly have the powers that we have. Therefore, in order to become like God, pure and, yet, wise, one must distance themselves from God, go to the "desert" of life and then find Him. And that's a lonely journey for all of us..... We start out pure and unwise, we become impure and unwise, but knowledgeable, and then we find wisdom and become pure again.

One must "eat from the tree of knowledge" before they can "eat from the tree of life" and become One with God.

My son was a little devil on halloween, btw.... LOL!! :D

http://photos-069.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sctm/v156/231/13/509451069/n509451069_653304_5462.jpg

It seems to me that it is good to think of God as my Father. He certainly teaches me a lot. He hopes I love Him but cannot force me to do so. He hopes that I learn enough from him to come to be with him after I die. He, as my father, agonizes when I am hurt. He does not give up on me when I do wrong. And He will forgive me no matter how badly I hurt him. I can turn from him and never love him again. I can make gods out of so many other things and never be able to love Him because I come to love something else more. And that may make him sad for I may never see Him again. But I long as I can forget myself and forgive myself maybe I will see Him again.
Like my father on earth, I could never know all he knew, nor know all that he felt inside him, nor know all about his life. But what I do know is that he loved me and I love him. And being that my Father in heaven loves me as my Father, I love him too.

This is most likely an invalid analogy. Do you have proof that the law of any country actually allows that (close) relatives are involved in a case like that?
AFAIK, another judge would be assigned to the case.

Ummmm........ It was an analogy......... :bugeye:

Are you seriously trying to undermine my point by saying that because this could not happen in real life then..... :rolleyes: Pleaseeeee

I don't believe it are you for real or what?

[QUOTE=TruthSeeker;1618810]And one does not need to totally understand a computer. But if one little piece is missing from the computer, it might not work at all. Likewise, it is very important to fully know God, otherwise, most of what we know is based on speculations!

Nope.. God is not a computer. :)




But the judge is not all powerful, however. Truly, what would take for an atheist to believe in God? How about going to hell then be raised from the dead? Why doesn't God briefly shows hell to unbelievers and then send them to heaven? Don't you think the unbelievers would start believing once they are in hell? If God can send Jesus to hell then bring him back, why can't he do that with unbelievers? Isn't Him all-powerful anyways?

A person could be shown the lake of fire and they would believe in God and do their best to follow his will. But would they be doing it because they believe God is right or would they be doing it because of fear of the lake of fire?

God does not want to rule by fear and intimidation but by admiration and agreement.




If God is loving AND all-powerful, He must be able to save everyone. It seems you forgot He's all-powerful...

Yes God wants to save all people but it takes two to tango. God offers the gift of salvation and we must be willing to take it.



I've prayed this to God before, and I'm telling you... if I end up in heaven and there is even one soul in hell, I will go to hell and rescue that soul.

No you won't. There is a barrier that no one can cross. And those who are with God in eternity will be with Him and those who are in the lake of fire will remain their for eternity.




How can a perfect being create imperfect things? Why would He do that, if He can choose to make them perfect? We must be perfect, even though in OUR terms we are not. We ARE perfect and the whole universe is perfect because God's will is paramount and can never be broken. He must have planned for all this, otherwise He is not omnipotent... unless He has elected not to use His powers...

God allowed the possibility for imperfection and our ancestors took it when satan offered it. Yes God allowed it and has been longsuffering towards it for the eternal good. This universe and this time of existence is very short compared to eternity. We exist in this state of existence only for a lifetime. and that is nothing compared to eternity. You have an eternal perspective. Of course we as limited human beings find it imposable to have an eternal perspective but we understand the difference between 1 second and a thousand years even when that comparison cannot adequately show the difference between our existence here and eternity.




I don't think Christians truly live in heaven at the moment, quite frankly....
I know I don't... :shrug:

I don't need to know where the dead are at the moment. Some say people are in Heaven and Hell, Some say people are in another place. It is not an important issue.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Ummmm........ It was an analogy......... :bugeye:

Are you seriously trying to undermine my point by saying that because this could not happen in real life then..... :rolleyes: Pleaseeeee

I don't believe it are you for real or what?

It was an INVALID analogy. One can't just compare two situations and draw conclusions based on that.

I'm not trying to undermine your point. I'm saying you need to find an analogy that actually applies.

Good thing I don't like cookies as much as I like building homemade nukes. :rolleyes:

This is your friendly local FBI agency and we've been bugging your phone since this post you made yesterday. I'm just enquiring as we'd like to know who this Madame Fifi is you've been ringing up and what services she offers, purely for research of course.

If you have any spare cookies, could you take them to the guys in the white van across the road? Their relief will be late getting there.

[QUOTE]Nope.. God is not a computer.
Ummmm........ It was an analogy......... :bugeye:

A person could be shown the lake of fire and they would believe in God and do their best to follow his will. But would they be doing it because they believe God is right or would they be doing it because of fear of the lake of fire?

God does not want to rule by fear and intimidation but by admiration and agreement.
Fair enough. Show them heaven, then? Now what is the problem with that?

Yes God wants to save all people but it takes two to tango. God offers the gift of salvation and we must be willing to take it.
You are talking about an all-powerful omniscient being and people who know nearly nothing. It doesn't matter how much will we have, we still have limited knowledge, and that tends to make us make the wrong choice (i.e. "mistake").

No you won't. There is a barrier that no one can cross. And those who are with God in eternity will be with Him and those who are in the lake of fire will remain their for eternity.
Says who?

God allowed the possibility for imperfection and our ancestors took it when satan offered it.
If we "accepted", we were imperfect in the first place.

Yes God allowed it and has been longsuffering towards it for the eternal good. This universe and this time of existence is very short compared to eternity. We exist in this state of existence only for a lifetime. and that is nothing compared to eternity. You have an eternal perspective. Of course we as limited human beings find it imposable to have an eternal perspective but we understand the difference between 1 second and a thousand years even when that comparison cannot adequately show the difference between our existence here and eternity.
How would eternity feel like? I don't think that is even possible for us to experience such thing. Possibly because we are alive...? :shrug:


I don't need to know where the dead are at the moment. Some say people are in Heaven and Hell, Some say people are in another place. It is not an important issue.
No, you were talking about the "heaven in the mind" so I responded "I don't think Christians truly live in heaven at the moment, quite frankly....". I'm talking about the ones that are alive.

Fair enough. Show them heaven, then? Now what is the problem with that?

Then the reason they would be following Him would be for the payment/reward. Such payments are never enough though. Because as we know here on earth people are never satisfied with just riches, people want power.

Once again the right way is to follow God because one knows He is the best One for the position. Not because of Fear or Reward.


You are talking about an all-powerful omniscient being and people who know nearly nothing. It doesn't matter how much will we have, we still have limited knowledge, and that tends to make us make the wrong choice (i.e. "mistake").

"Nearly know nothing" is not the same as knowing nothing, God does not require us to know more than we are capable of knowing. And people chose what they are attracted to. what they think is good. If people are drawn toward evil then their minds and soul are set on evil and they condemn themselves. If one is attracted to Good they will be drawn to what is good.



Adstar:No you won't. There is a barrier that no one can cross. And those who are with God in eternity will be with Him and those who are in the lake of fire will remain their for eternity.
”
TruthSeeker: Says who?

Says the scriptures.



How would eternity feel like? I don't think that is even possible for us to experience such thing. Possibly because we are alive...?


All we can do is understand the concept of a very long time. But you are right we cannot comprehend eternity.


No, you were talking about the "heaven in the mind" so I responded "I don't think Christians truly live in heaven at the moment, quite frankly....". I'm talking about the ones that are alive.

I was talking about the Kingdom of God in the Mind of those indwelled by the Holy Spirit. That is not heaven. Heaven is a place.

So You are right i am not in Heaven at the moment in my mind on earth, But i have the peace of Jesus within me through the Holy Spirit.

I was also talking about the debate within Christianity of what happens to us between our deaths and the resurrection and last judgement.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Then the reason they would be following Him would be for the payment/reward. Such payments are never enough though. Because as we know here on earth people are never satisfied with just riches, people want power.

Once again the right way is to follow God because one knows He is the best One for the position. Not because of Fear or Reward.
How would anyone know to follow God? This is how things work here. People won't do anything unless there is a punishment or a reward. Those are the two things that motivate people. And who cares if they do it for either reason? If God can save people by showing them hell and kindly warning them..... why not!? Besides, that's what a lot of christians do anyways, warning people about hell.... :rolleyes:

"Nearly know nothing" is not the same as knowing nothing, God does not require us to know more than we are capable of knowing.
But we don't know enough to logically make the decision of following God.

And people chose what they are attracted to. what they think is good. If people are drawn toward evil then their minds and soul are set on evil and they condemn themselves. If one is attracted to Good they will be drawn to what is good.
I suppose, then, that God created some people to go to hell?

Says the scriptures.
Show me. Plus, why would God create such restrictions? Plus, I've never seen a scripture about "walls", as you put it...

All we can do is understand the concept of a very long time. But you are right we cannot comprehend eternity.
Can a conscious being experience eternity?

I was talking about the Kingdom of God in the Mind of those indwelled by the Holy Spirit. That is not heaven. Heaven is a place.
Earlier you said "Kingdom of the Mind". Is that not heaven, then?

So You are right i am not in Heaven at the moment in my mind on earth, But i have the peace of Jesus within me through the Holy Spirit.
Are you truly in peace?

I was also talking about the debate within Christianity of what happens to us between our deaths and the resurrection and last judgement.
Yeah, I know about that...

How would anyone know to follow God? This is how things work here. People won't do anything unless there is a punishment or a reward. Those are the two things that motivate people. And who cares if they do it for either reason? If God can save people by showing them hell and kindly warning them..... why not!? Besides, that's what a lot of christians do anyways, warning people about hell.... :rolleyes:

I disagree. there are people who will do things because they think it is right to do them. and there are people who will resist doing things because they think it is wrong. You do not need fear or reward to motivate people who do things because they think it is right.

And yes We warn of Hell and talk of eternity with God, these things can motivate one to seek and give one a sense of how serious the situation is, but it is also my experience that they cannot keep one in the faith. What keeps people in the faith is Love and Admiration of God and what He has done to secure our forgiveness through the Messiah Jesus.


But we don't know enough to logically make the decision of following God.

I believe we do.


I suppose, then, that God created some people to go to hell?

No all men can be convicted of the truth that they are sinners needing salvation. But once a person shouts down their own conscience with their will they Kill that part within them that connects them to God. And nothing one can say to them will move them.


Show me. Plus, why would God create such restrictions? Plus, I've never seen a scripture about "walls", as you put it...

Luke 16
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[d] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’


Can a conscious being experience eternity?

I don't think anyone on earth can experience eternity.


Earlier you said "Kingdom of the Mind". Is that not heaven, then?

No.


Are you truly in peace?

Yes. I am extremely calm. No matter what the situation. I do not fret or worry anymore.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I disagree. there are people who will do things because they think it is right to do them. and there are people who will resist doing things because they think it is wrong. You do not need fear or reward to motivate people who do things because they think it is right.
Yes, I do agree with you, actually. However, that is not how most people work.

I believe we do.
If we did, everyone would, which is not the case.

No all men can be convicted of the truth that they are sinners needing salvation. But once a person shouts down their own conscience with their will they Kill that part within them that connects them to God. And nothing one can say to them will move them.
But if God is omnipotent, wouldn't He be able to stop that?

26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
Oh... alright... but could I fly through that "gulf"? I mean... why not? :D

I don't think anyone on earth can experience eternity.
But can you consciously experience eternity in heaven?

Yes. I am extremely calm. No matter what the situation. I do not fret or worry anymore.
Really? Are you sure your circumstances are not too easy? I mean... you don't live in Africa and you are not starving, right?

If god is omniscient then he is an immortal puppet who knows what he will do for every second of eternity and can do nothing about it.

omniscient : having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

God is omniscient so He's way smarter than you. He KNOWS all things and UNDERSTANDS all things and PERCEIVES all things. Therefore He has a MIND/SPIRIT. You have a spirit too.


If he is omnipotent, he can change that but then he is not omniscient as he didn't know he'd do that.


omnipotent: having very great or unlimited authority or power.

God is omnipotent so He is way more powerful than you. He chooses to do what He wants to do because He has a WILL and so He chose to give you a will too. Therefore God is not an immortal puppet He is independant in Himself.


As to the classic image of god, being all powerful he is one of a kind so has no equal, no friends and can love no one. Everyone and everything is as far below him as viruses are below us. He never gets tired so knows no fatigue. He can never be ill, never suffer. What he wants is so he never wants anything. He can never know hate because what he hates cannot survive as can nothing unless he allows it. He can never know want because anything he wants, is!


God has a SOUL that is basically the seat of emotions and He has given you one too. Since He is omniscient and omnipotent His soul is way larger and way more perfect than yours. He has no equal...yet. His friends are those who love Him and are increasing their souls in His likeness within the restrictions of His covenant and He loved the world so much that He gave His only begotten Son as a way to reconcile (to bring into agreement or harmony; make compatible or consistent) Adam and his seed back to Him.


All conventional matter and energy we know of has very strict limitations so god cannot be made of them.

I agree.


We have more in common with a brick wall than we have with god and he has absolutely nothing in common with us. Anyone who thinks they can share anything with such an impossible being is deluded.


I disagree.

What we have in common with God is a mind(spirit), soul and will. God is omniscient and omnipotent therefore He can initiate a relationship with man through covenant.

You however, are like a brick wall to God: dead. To God, you are the one that's deluded.

Once again the right way is to follow God because one knows He is the best One for the position.

This requires omniscience on the part of the person.

This requires omniscience on the part of the person.

Elaborate...

Once again the right way is to follow God because one knows He is the best One for the position.

This requires omniscience on the part of the person.

Why?

In order to know that God is the best one to follow,

one would need to know all options in this Universe, all the beings and all guidelines.

Without knowing all of them, one cannot know which one is the best one.

This requires omniscience on the part of the person.

Why?

In order to know that God is the best one to follow,

one would need to know all options in this Universe, all the beings and all guidelines.

Without knowing all of them, one cannot know which one is the best one.

OR it requires God to actually reveal Himself to you...

OR it requires God to actually reveal Himself to you...

That doesn't solve anything, though, if a person is supposed to follow God freely.

As long as the stipulation is that the person needs to follow God freely, then God revealing himself to the person doesn't change the fact that in order for the person to know that God is the best option, the person still needs to know all other options.

If a person doesn't know all possible options, they cannot decide which one is the best one of them all.

As long as the stipulation is that the person needs to follow God freely, then God revealing himself to the person doesn't change the fact that in order for the person to know that God is the best option, the person still needs to know all other options.


You can only fall back on logic and reason which I cannot blame you for. But when we bring in the concepts of truth and belief, your logic and reasoning becomes heavily flawed especially when truth is that there is only one God who created everything leaving the person with only one option: to choose or reject God. (edit: i mean two options)

If you believe that there are more than one omniscient and omnipotent beings yet you are not omniscient then when God does reveal Himself to you, you can still choose freely because you can reject Him.

But when we bring in the concepts of truth and belief, your logic and reasoning becomes heavily flawed especially when truth is that there is only one God who created everything

As a non-theist, I do not know this "truth", nor have you theists so far given any workable instruction for how to arrive at this truth.

If anything, it is a "truth" that I would have to accept apriori, blindly.


If you believe that there are more than one omniscient and omnipotent beings

That was never stipulated by me.

You may not have stipulated that there are more than one omniscient and omnipotent beings but that is what you suggested when you mentioned "other options". The best option is obviously to follow an all knowing and all powerful being. Anything less is not exactly the best.

So therefore, the truth can either be that there is only one or that there are more than one. Oh yeah, I'm forgetting your truth that there are none but that point of view does not necessarily fit in with the topic at hand.

Nevertheless, we are faced with three perspectives and only one can be true.

You have to choose a principle to reason with and you have come to this conclusion: "in order for the person to know that God is the best option, the person still needs to know all other options". This suggests a perspective from which there is more than one omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient being does it not? If that's the case then your logic and reason is flawed.

The best option is to follow an all knowing and all powerful ruler. There can only be one for it to be the best. So all other options have thus been eliminated leaving us with God - omniscient and omnipotent thus being the best.

I have chosen to reason from a perspective that there is only one omnipotent and omniscient being. So therefore I have no other options to explore in regards to which God to follow but I have two options in regards to how I'm going to respond to that knowledge. I can either choose to mould with His purpose and plan for my salvation or walk independant of His truth. From my perspective, your logic and reason is thus heavily flawed.

As a npn-theist, I do not know this "truth", nor have you theists so far given any workable instruction for how to arrive at this truth.

www.second8thweek.com
http://www.s8week.com/Clemency
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If anything, it is a "truth" that I would have to accept apriori, blindly.


http://www.s8week.com/Clemency

You may not have stipulated that there are more than one omniscient and omnipotent beings but that is what you suggested when you mentioned "other options".

If you want to explore the set of all possible options, then that is a much bigger set, including things like "not following anyone but oneself", "suspending decision", "worshipping the Flying Spaghetti Monster" etc.


The best option is obviously to follow an all knowing and all powerful being. Anything less is not exactly the best.

Do you know all the options?
Are you omniscient?


Oh yeah, I'm forgetting your truth that there are none but that point of view does not necessarily fit in with the topic at hand.

I never said that there were none.


The best option is to follow an all knowing and all powerful ruler.

How do you know that this is the best option?


I have chosen to reason from a perspective that there is only one omnipotent and omniscient being.

Why have you chosen this?
Have you chosen this already before you started to believe in God?

“ Originally Posted by fruityfigtree
You may not have stipulated that there are more than one omniscient and omnipotent beings but that is what you suggested when you mentioned "other options". ”

If you want to explore the set of all possible options, then that is a much bigger set, including things like "not following anyone but oneself", "suspending decision", "worshipping the Flying Spaghetti Monster" etc.


Are you kidding me? You would describe those as omnipotent and omniscient? I thought God is defined as being omniscient and omnipotent...


“ The best option is obviously to follow an all knowing and all powerful being. Anything less is not exactly the best. ”

Do you know all the options?
Are you omniscient?


God is omnipotent AND omniscient. I am neither. So my best option is to follow Him.


“ Oh yeah, I'm forgetting your truth that there are none but that point of view does not necessarily fit in with the topic at hand. ”

I never said that there were none.


My bad I thought non-theism meant you don't believe in anything superior than you or is that athiesm? Anyway, that is my ignorance.


“ The best option is to follow an all knowing and all powerful ruler. ”

How do you know that this is the best option?


Would you follow a stupid and weak one? Is that the best option?


“ I have chosen to reason from a perspective that there is only one omnipotent and omniscient being. ”

Why have you chosen this?
Have you chosen this already before you started to believe in God?


Ah, I see now. No, before I believed in God I did not know Him. Then He revealed Himself to me through His Son Jesus Christ and I chose to bow the knee.

fruityfigtree,

You do realize that you are building your statements on the benefit of hindsight?

Someone who does not yet know which option is the best one - well, that someone just does not yet know which option is the best one. That someone can't knowingly pick the best one.

You do realize that you are building your statements on the benefit of hindsight?
I don't think he does realize that....

Someone who does not yet know which option is the best one - well, that someone just does not yet know which option is the best one. That someone can't knowingly pick the best one.
Very true......


The reason why I "accepted" Jesus, was not because the person, nor punishment, nor reward, but because of his teachings. However, I don't agree with everything that is written in the Bible. Some things seem to have been added and modified from the original.... :scratchin:

Regardless, it is illogical to "choose" God because He is omniscient and omnipotent simply because one does not know whether that God exists in the first place. That is the problem that atheists face. They cannot find evidence, therefore they don't believe.

Regardless, it is illogical to "choose" God because He is omniscient and omnipotent simply because one does not know whether that God exists in the first place. That is the problem that atheists face. They cannot find evidence, therefore they don't believe.

To find that evidence would require omniscience.

To find that evidence would require omniscience.
Exactly. That's what I stated earlier. And that's the problem with fruityfigtree's argument. It requires omniscience on the part of atheists.

My argument is conpletely different. As I said, I didn't "accept" Jesus because I believed God is the best option and that He would send me to heaven, I "accepted" Jesus because of his teachings. It's not even a matter of acceptance. His main teachings are perfeclty aligned with my own principles. That's why I consider myself a Christian, a follower of Christ. That's why I can "carry the cross" like he commanded us to do. I do believe in his cause. He was a peace teacher. He wanted world peace, and he wanted us to work towards world peace. That's what truly make someone his disciple. If you read the Bible carefully, he clearly states that some who are believed to go to heaven will not, while someone who are believed not to go will. That's because of the misunderstanding that a murderer can go to heaven simply because he states that he "accept Jesus in his heart". Please, God is not illogical. That's not the point. People are missing the point. The true believers are those who carry the cross with Jesus, those who work towards world peace.

Matthew 5
"8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "

You see... the requirement is the acceptance of Jesus' teachings, NOT just stating out loud "I accept Jesus in my heart". This is my main dispute against what a lot of Christians teaches. If God is omniscient, He MUST be logical. And what a lot of Christians preach is completely illogical.

This requirement is actually awesome because it does not require you to know God. That's just impossible. The requirement is that you are pure of heart, that you are a peacemaker. You have a good heart, you go to heaven. In fact, heaven is already in the "children of God", because as the scriptures read, the kingdom of God is within us.

Luke 17
"20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. "

Please, God is not illogical. That's not the point. People are missing the point. The true believers are those who carry the cross with Jesus, those who work towards world peace.

You see... the requirement is the acceptance of Jesus' teachings, NOT just stating out loud "I accept Jesus in my heart". This is my main dispute against what a lot of Christians teaches. If God is omniscient, He MUST be logical. And what a lot of Christians preach is completely illogical.

. "

Man o man ..I share the same thought.;) I believe this was the original intent before the orthodox elements changed the concept to an idealogy to suit their own selfish purposes.
Just giving verbal assent to Jesus to gain salvation accomplishes nothing..I mean, where is the spiritual advancement/growth in such a concept?

These same teachings were reflected in other spiritual leaders...Krishna, the Goddess Aset ( Isis) ..to achieve ,like Jesus; a oneness with God/the universe while remaining in the duality of the physical universe.

Just giving verbal assent to Jesus to gain salvation accomplishes nothing..I mean, where is the spiritual advancement/growth in such a concept?

I'm sure many theists share the same sentiment.

I see the problem with declaring such assent in the fact that the people who hear it, will likely interpret it their own way - which might be completely different from what you meant. I know for myself that this can lead to a lot of trouble - people either assuming that one is with them, or against them, or crazy. Declare such assent and some people will feel obligated to persecute you, or to consider you one of theirs, and all sorts of things.

No all men can be convicted of the truth that they are sinners needing salvation. But once a person shouts down their own conscience with their will they Kill that part within them that connects them to God. And nothing one can say to them will move them.


But if God is omnipotent, wouldn't He be able to stop that?

Yes but the question is: Does he want to stop someone who loves evil and hates the will of God following their will? Scriptures reveal that those who love unrighteousness are given over to delusions and deceptions.



But can you consciously experience eternity in heaven?

I never have and i doubt anyone alive ever has.



Yes. I am extremely calm. No matter what the situation. I do not fret or worry anymore.

Really? Are you sure your circumstances are not too easy? I mean... you don't live in Africa and you are not starving, right?

Nope. But i expect to be murdered for my beliefs one day and i expect it to be done by beheading. I believe the near future will be the most terrible times on earth since the dawn of man. I can see much starvation happening all over this world not just in Africa. The peace that i know is not reliant on material backing.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Exactly. That's what I stated earlier. And that's the problem with fruityfigtree's argument. It requires omniscience on the part of atheists.

My argument is conpletely different. As I said, I didn't "accept" Jesus because I believed God is the best option and that He would send me to heaven, I "accepted" Jesus because of his teachings. It's not even a matter of acceptance. His main teachings are perfeclty aligned with my own principles. That's why I consider myself a Christian, a follower of Christ. That's why I can "carry the cross" like he commanded us to do. I do believe in his cause. He was a peace teacher. He wanted world peace, and he wanted us to work towards world peace. That's what truly make someone his disciple. If you read the Bible carefully, he clearly states that some who are believed to go to heaven will not, while someone who are believed not to go will. That's because of the misunderstanding that a murderer can go to heaven simply because he states that he "accept Jesus in his heart". Please, God is not illogical. That's not the point. People are missing the point. The true believers are those who carry the cross with Jesus, those who work towards world peace.

Matthew 5
"8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "

You see... the requirement is the acceptance of Jesus' teachings, NOT just stating out loud "I accept Jesus in my heart". This is my main dispute against what a lot of Christians teaches. If God is omniscient, He MUST be logical. And what a lot of Christians preach is completely illogical.

This requirement is actually awesome because it does not require you to know God. That's just impossible. The requirement is that you are pure of heart, that you are a peacemaker. You have a good heart, you go to heaven. In fact, heaven is already in the "children of God", because as the scriptures read, the kingdom of God is within us.

Luke 17
"20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. "

I believe one should believe and accept the Words of Jesus. And a part of that is loving ones enemies and not taking part in war.

But your posts is about one striving for self justification by achieving or working towards world peace. See your falling into the trap that so many fall into of trying to pay for eternity with God.

As prophecy reveals there will be no world peace until after the Messiah Jesus returns and establishes it on earth.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

This requires omniscience on the part of the person.

Why?

In order to know that God is the best one to follow,

one would need to know all options in this Universe, all the beings and all guidelines.

Without knowing all of them, one cannot know which one is the best one.

If there was a higher power than God and that authority desires to be followed then it would make itself known and would put forward it's desires in regard to mankind.

Of course there are competing powers to the will of God and indeed some people look upon satan as being a god, not only a god, but a better god than the God of Abraham.

Irrespective of the competing revelations each person will be attracted to the one that they embrace with their will. So each one will go down the path they deem right. So be it.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Yes but the question is: Does he want to stop someone who loves evil and hates the will of God following their will? Scriptures reveal that those who love unrighteousness are given over to delusions and deceptions.
Tell me of a single person who is born unrighteous and I will agree with you.
Furthermore, there is no "evil" person. Their way may be evil, but they, themselves, are not. There's no such thing as an "evil person".

I never have and i doubt anyone alive ever has.
Ok, but what I'm asking is... is it possible to consicously experience eternity under any circumstance?

Nope. But i expect to be murdered for my beliefs one day and i expect it to be done by beheading. I believe the near future will be the most terrible times on earth since the dawn of man. I can see much starvation happening all over this world not just in Africa. The peace that i know is not reliant on material backing.
I highly doubt anyone on this planet know true peace. And that includes you.

no human can understand god

I believe one should believe and accept the Words of Jesus. And a part of that is loving ones enemies and not taking part in war.
Do you really understand the significance of that scripture? If you love your "enemy", is that really your "enemy" anymore?

Sure, "accept" what Jesus teach. I go beyond that, however. It is very welcomed.

But your posts is about one striving for self justification by achieving or working towards world peace. See your falling into the trap that so many fall into of trying to pay for eternity with God.
I'm not trying to "pay my way into heaven". In fact, I'm not concerned with heaven at all. That's not my concern. I work towards peace out of my heart. Besides, it is our duty to carry the cross of Jesus. I carry it, and I do it joyfully. I enjoy it. It's challenging and exciting. I don't do this to go to heaven. To do this to pay for heaven would make me a naive selfish person, which is exactly what I'm not. I give of myself not because someone told me to do it, but because it is part of my own principles and my natural personality.

As prophecy reveals there will be no world peace until after the Messiah Jesus returns and establishes it on earth.
That's exactly what the devil wants you to think. It is all so convinient for you. You have no part to play here, it is so convenient. You see, if all "christians" believe that and don't carry the cross, there is no world peace. But only those who carry the cross are truly his disciples. People like that young girl who died in the beginning of the Iraq war, crushed by a tank while protesting for Peace. I don't care if she said "I accept Jesus in my heart, DUH". I don't care. I know she's in heaven now, and she is one of the few who touched my heart.

True chrsitians are Peacemakers. They don't just sit around on a couch saying "praise the lord" while watching the war on Iraq. No such person will make to heaven.

The kingdom of heaven is within us. God is within us. The second coming is us.

no human can understand god
*************
M*W: "No human can understand god," because there is no such thing as god.

Tell me of a single person who is born unrighteous and I will agree with you.

Well when we are born we are without the knowledge of Good or Evil so no one is born unrighteous. But once someone comes to the understanding of Good and Evil then they use both and therefore become unrighteous.



Furthermore, there is no "evil" person. Their way may be evil, but they, themselves, are not. There's no such thing as an "evil person".

Of course there are evil people who take great delight in inflicting evil upon others. I find it astounding that a person could actually believe the above statement. This is probably the foundation of all your beliefs, That all people are basically good. But if your foundations are faulty whatever you build upon the foundations will not stand up to reality and it will crumble and fall.



Ok, but what I'm asking is... is it possible to consicously experience eternity under any circumstance?

I don't think so. I don't believe our minds are wired with the ability to experience it.




I highly doubt anyone on this planet know true peace. And that includes you.

:) You are free to believe what you will leads you to believe.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Well good and evil don't really exist, in the sense that they're just our subjective perceptions of human behavior.

Let me try to address your questions.

1) Almost all Christian branches will require this. The Scriptures make it quite clear that acceptance of Jesus Christ is a requirement to get into heaven. There are some vague exceptions in Revelation concerning Jews and the nation of Israel, but that is beyond the scope of my reply. There are plenty of apologists for this point, but the entire purpose of Christianity is built around the concept of saving grace from God in the form of Jesus Christ. Without Jesus, Christianity would simply be theism or Judaism. Basically, I can't say much to this other than it's what the Bible teaches, and if we misinterpreted the whole thing, then uh-oh.

2) As Southern Baptist, I believe in a concept called the "age of accountability." It's based on a verse in Deuteronomy that states a person is not divinely responsible for their acts until age 20. In the New Testament, this becomes a mental age. So babies, mentally incapacitated, young children, etc are pardoned and granted immediate entrance into heaven if they die before the age of accountability, which in our doctrine varies with the individual, i.e. when they are mature enough to understand the Scripture and its gravity.

3) This one is interesting. The Bible hints a lot about heaven but doesn't give us a complete picture. Jesus speaks of mansions, and Revelation speaks of a great city. The biggest hint in Revelation is that of a new heaven, new Earth, and new Jerusalem, and there is a passage about the old heaven and earth being passed away and consumed by fire. What this means to me is that the afterlife and the future, new creation after the end of this one is physical in nature, but not physical as we know it. There are hints about our capabilities in the resurrected body of Christ, i.e. we will not be limited by time, space, gravity, disease or age. The future existence is largely described as eternally praising God, but that sounds boring. I imagine there's a lot more to it. It's probably not possible for us to imagine everything that will be going on, but we are God's favored creation, so there's something exciting for us beyond the grave, I would guess. Jesus also mentions our treasures on Earth aren't worth anything once we're dead, so you're right about God being non-materialistic.

4) God is typically described metaphorically in the Bible. He's trying to convey attributes about an infinite spiritual being to finite, physical beings in a limited language and intellect, so it's natural that he would use images familiar to us to describe himself in the Bible. However, it's not limited to human images. God describes himself as a door, a bird, a shepherd, and abstract ideas like love and light. The "old man" image comes from the frescoes by Michelangelo and earlier medieval artists. There is no basis for the old man image in the Bible. It is merely from popular culture.

Understanding God isn't knowing the Bible front-to-back, memorizing facts and figures, or knowing how God makes decisions like a computer program. The reason we can know God personally is because God seeks a personal relationship with all of mankind, like he envisioned it in Eden. We can know God personally through an intimate relationship with him through Jesus Christ. That is the basic message of Christianity: of God's love for his creation and desire to fellowship with him. The God of the Bible is not a deistic God. He is both transcendent (beyond space and time) and with us (within space and time and ourselves).

2) As Southern Baptist, I believe in a concept called the "age of accountability." It's based on a verse in Deuteronomy that states a person is not divinely responsible for their acts until age 20. In the New Testament, this becomes a mental age. So babies, mentally incapacitated, young children, etc are pardoned and granted immediate entrance into heaven if they die before the age of accountability, which in our doctrine varies with the individual, i.e. when they are mature enough to understand the Scripture and its gravity.


Midnight,

I have never seen this stated anywhere in the Bible. Where is this stated in Deuteronomy? Could you please provide me with a quote or verse reference?

Thanks!

Well when we are born we are without the knowledge of Good or Evil so no one is born unrighteous. But once someone comes to the understanding of Good and Evil then they use both and therefore become unrighteous.
People ar enot evil. Some of their actions may be "evil", but they are not intrinsically evil. Their actions change according to their circumstances. People behave "evil" because of the way they are treated, and because of their circumstances. They are not intrinsically evil, in their hearts. Nobody deserves hell.

Of course there are evil people who take great delight in inflicting evil upon others. I find it astounding that a person could actually believe the above statement. This is probably the foundation of all your beliefs, That all people are basically good. But if your foundations are faulty whatever you build upon the foundations will not stand up to reality and it will crumble and fall.
And your foundation states that everyone is intrinsically evil. Which is terrible, and anti-christian. Ever heard "hate the sin, not the sinner"? That's what the "love your enemies" scripture is all about. Your belief that mankind is intrinsically evil exposes an ignorance or at least a lack of understanding of the scriptures.

Nobody is born a serial killer. They become a serial killer through years of systematic abuse inflicted upon them.

I don't think so. I don't believe our minds are wired with the ability to experience it.
So how could you live in heaven for an eternity if your mind can't experience eternity?

Well good and evil don't really exist, in the sense that they're just our subjective perceptions of human behavior.
Yes, they are relative to our subjective perceptions. Good and evil are very unscientific terms. I prefer analysing behaviour in terms of how beneficial it is to the self and to the society as a whole.

Let me try to address your questions.

1) Almost all Christian branches will require this. The Scriptures make it quite clear that acceptance of Jesus Christ is a requirement to get into heaven. There are some vague exceptions in Revelation concerning Jews and the nation of Israel, but that is beyond the scope of my reply. There are plenty of apologists for this point, but the entire purpose of Christianity is built around the concept of saving grace from God in the form of Jesus Christ. Without Jesus, Christianity would simply be theism or Judaism. Basically, I can't say much to this other than it's what the Bible teaches, and if we misinterpreted the whole thing, then uh-oh.
I will assume that you read my whole post.

I don't dispute the acceptance of Jesus. I dispute the meaning of that "acceptance", however. Just a statement that you "accept Jesus as your lord and saviour" or whatever is not logical. Such a requirement is not logical in that sense. However, if you accept Jesus' teachings AND "carry the cross" with him (i.e. live by his teachings, even though you are not perfect), then yes, that makes sense. Sure God has grace. But why would God bring a whole bunch of murderes to heaven? That would make heaven hell! If you are truly purified, "born again", then you must be able to act as though you are born again. If you don't, it is not in your heart and, therefore, it doesn't matter how many times you say you "accept" Jesus, you won't be going to heaven. In order to be born again, you must accept Jesus' teachings, not himself. That's what "born again" actually means. In which case, anyone in the planet who live by Jesus' teachings would go to heaven, even if they never heard of Jesus. That would be a lot more logical in terms of a loving omnipotent God.

2) As Southern Baptist, I believe in a concept called the "age of accountability." It's based on a verse in Deuteronomy that states a person is not divinely responsible for their acts until age 20. In the New Testament, this becomes a mental age. So babies, mentally incapacitated, young children, etc are pardoned and granted immediate entrance into heaven if they die before the age of accountability, which in our doctrine varies with the individual, i.e. when they are mature enough to understand the Scripture and its gravity.
Let's see the verse. In context.

3) This one is interesting. The Bible hints a lot about heaven but doesn't give us a complete picture. Jesus speaks of mansions, and Revelation speaks of a great city. The biggest hint in Revelation is that of a new heaven, new Earth, and new Jerusalem, and there is a passage about the old heaven and earth being passed away and consumed by fire. What this means to me is that the afterlife and the future, new creation after the end of this one is physical in nature, but not physical as we know it. There are hints about our capabilities in the resurrected body of Christ, i.e. we will not be limited by time, space, gravity, disease or age. The future existence is largely described as eternally praising God, but that sounds boring. I imagine there's a lot more to it. It's probably not possible for us to imagine everything that will be going on, but we are God's favored creation, so there's something exciting for us beyond the grave, I would guess. Jesus also mentions our treasures on Earth aren't worth anything once we're dead, so you're right about God being non-materialistic.
Yes, I think you are on the right track. I think the "heaven" will be right here. I think the "fire" actually means purification (it's a very common archetype throughout religions). In which case, hell could also mean a place where people are purified. It's likely that a loving omnipotent God won't live people in a place of eternal damnation for the rest of eternity. As for palaces and cities of gold, those could also have a more symbolic meaning.

4) God is typically described metaphorically in the Bible. He's trying to convey attributes about an infinite spiritual being to finite, physical beings in a limited language and intellect, so it's natural that he would use images familiar to us to describe himself in the Bible. However, it's not limited to human images. God describes himself as a door, a bird, a shepherd, and abstract ideas like love and light. The "old man" image comes from the frescoes by Michelangelo and earlier medieval artists. There is no basis for the old man image in the Bible. It is merely from popular culture.
I can see you are quite well informed!!!

Understanding God isn't knowing the Bible front-to-back, memorizing facts and figures, or knowing how God makes decisions like a computer program. The reason we can know God personally is because God seeks a personal relationship with all of mankind, like he envisioned it in Eden. We can know God personally through an intimate relationship with him through Jesus Christ. That is the basic message of Christianity: of God's love for his creation and desire to fellowship with him. The God of the Bible is not a deistic God. He is both transcendent (beyond space and time) and with us (within space and time and ourselves).
Yes. However, contrary to a lot of christians, I believe Jesus' main purpose was that of a teacher, not a saviour. I think salvation has a lot more to do with the way we live our lives then life after death. Salvation is the kingdom of heaven within us. It's peace of mind and spirit.

When God speaks to me I understand Him because He speaks English and I understand English.

and when He speaks to me He comforts me and fills me with hope and love...and that feels nice.
So, there must be a God...because it feels good.

I hope all of your posts are filled with this much insight :rolleyes:

It was Exodus, my bad.

Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.
(Exodus 30:14)

Also, try this link:

http://www.gotquestions.org/age-of-accountability.html

Is it possible to understand God? Assuming that God is omnipotent and omniscient, is it possible to understand Him? Well, a lot of chistians speak as though they know God personally. That sounds a little bit arrogant to me. One must be equally omnipotent and omniscient in order to truly understand God. If you are not one with God, you can't understand Him, can you? Now, we only see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face.... from that scripture I deduct that we don't know God now, but someday we will, and I presume that only in death one can truly be one with God. Therefore, it is only possible to truly understand God when you die.

Here are a few claims that chirstians often make that I question:
1) "Acceptance of Jesus" as a requirement to heaven
Now, the reason why this bugs me is that an all-knowing loving God would have to be quite illogical to send a good person to hell. In fact, an all-powerful loving God should be able to prevent people to go to hell, or at least be able to take them out of there, once they arrive there! Why would He let anyone suffer in hell? Of course, people have choices. But while in life some people may doubt there is a heaven and hell, once in hell, nobody would doubt and I suppose anyone in hell would want to get out of hell. So how on earth would God let good people suffer in hell?

Now, I do understand the logic behind the above premise (that is accepting Jesus). Of course, because nobody is perfect, therefore, one must accept Jesus instead of taking the requirement of being perfect. However, considering the apparent nature of God, the above premise would not be logical. If God is forgiving and all-powerful, why can't He just take people ot of hell. Hell, I would go to hell to rescue people. Why not? It's not like I'm staying there forever, if God is with me. Why not rescue people from hell? I don't understand that. If God is like that I truly don't understand Him. And quite frankly, if He cannot help people in hell, then He is not all-powerful, and I would be a little bit disappointed. But, truly, either God is all-powerful and not loving or He is not all-powerful and loving. Otherwise, He would logically be able to help people, getting them out hell.

Another problem with accepting Jesus is that it is hardly fair to send murderers who accepted Jesus to heaven when good people who have done great charities but never heard of Chirst would be sent to hell. That's not wise, not loving and not all powerful. This isn't logical considering the apparent nature of God.

Another thing that tells me this requirement is not only illogical but wrong is the scriptures that say that many who are assumed to be going to heaven will not end up there and many who are assumed to not go there will be there. That tells me that not everyone knows the real requirements for heaven.

I think that the meaning of "accepting Jesus" is where the problem resides. I will get to that shortly.

2) Babies go to hell?
From the above requirement, one can deduct that babies go to hell. Why? Because no baby is capable of "accepting Jesus" before they die! This is just wrong. For an all-powerful loving God... to send babies to hell... I mean.... that's nonsense.

3) The "Kingdom" of Heaven
A lot of Chistians take that literally and claim that heaven has a castle and palaces and other material "goodies". I honestly don't think that make much sense, and would be quite surprised if that was the case. Also, that is a bit stuck in the past. Why would God get stuck in the past with Kingdoms and so on. I think this is just a metaphor to heaven as ruled by God. I think that chirstians who believe that are often materialistic and enjoy having things (I think it was americans who reinforced that belief). I don't believe God is materialistic in nature. I think God doesn't care about materialism like we do (why would He?). And even if we do and He wants to please us, I don't think that would make a lot of sense either, because materialism often come swith greed, which is a sin. I don't think we would need anything in heaven either, so materialism in heaven is completely not a requirement.

4) The image of God
An old man? Why!? If He is all powerful and He exists forever, He should look young! And that's IF He looks at all like us, because that doesn't make much sense either! If He's everywhere, He shouldn't have a visual image like us.



Now... back to point number 1, I think "accepting Jesus in your heart" would be more like agreeing with his teachings, whether then saying out loud that you accept Jesus. If you accept his teachings, you will try to live by them and you will "carry the cross" with Him (that is, trying to make the world a better place and taking the consequences). Otherwise, one may accept Jesus and then murder someone then go to heave. Where's the logic in that? If you accept his teachings, your heart will be purified and you will be able to go to heaven, even if you are not perfect. It's a commitment to God. Not "I accept Jesus as my Lord and saviour". Imagine that. Jesus seeing a whole bunch of murderers going to heaven just because the said "I accept Jesus". Nonsense. As it is written, many who are thought to go to heaven will not, and many who are not, will be there. Because, logically, anyone who is good in their heart follows God and, therefore, should logically go to heaven.

Anyways... that was long....

As I said, I don't claim to know God. This is just logical reasoning based on what's written in the Bible.


Don't take this as arrogant Truthseeker but I know my Father. I use his name and I do pray for his insight unto my life. It is a personal relationship that I can only describe in experiences to convey my trust in his written word. If it wasn't for the scriptures no one could claim that they know him at all. But we...or should I say I, can only know him as much as child can know there father at such a young age. Some us may perceive him as non caring or non existent like an absent father but we're still only dealing with God on the basis of what we know.

I believe I've spoken to you before but I address the tread as a dispassionate question to answered by who ever is intrested to answer an ideed this this is a subject of looked into quite a bit.

I have a apathy for religion. It's become the teaching of interpretations and preception rather than the litteral understanding and a search for God. Christianity bares some heavy charges as well as the other Abrahamic religions. The list is long and well known as to the attrocities that have been carried out for God. People can claim much. They can assume to vouch for him and murder millions in his name it's a constant contradition.

Heaven and Hell is one of those constant contradictions pedanticly maintain in Religion today so these question and acusation are quite understandable.

Do you really understand the significance of that scripture? If you love your "enemy", is that really your "enemy" anymore?

Sure, "accept" what Jesus teach. I go beyond that, however. It is very welcomed.


I'm not trying to "pay my way into heaven". In fact, I'm not concerned with heaven at all. That's not my concern. I work towards peace out of my heart. Besides, it is our duty to carry the cross of Jesus. I carry it, and I do it joyfully. I enjoy it. It's challenging and exciting. I don't do this to go to heaven. To do this to pay for heaven would make me a naive selfish person, which is exactly what I'm not. I give of myself not because someone told me to do it, but because it is part of my own principles and my natural personality.

So if you are doing what you only want to do anyway then where is the burden upon you? What cross are you carrying?

It is easy to do the things we want to do anyway there is no burden there. The burden comes from trusting in God and going places we do not want to go and doing things we do not want to do. Then it becomes a burden.

Many embrace the Words of Jesus that they are in agreement with, and those Words are not a burden at all. It's When they face the difficult Words of Jesus , Things that they find hard to agree with or accept, That's When you will find out who is prepared to carry a cross for the Lord and who is unwilling.



If you love your "enemy", is that really your "enemy" anymore?

An enemy is an enemy because of their opposition to you or what you stand for. You do not need to be their enemy for them to be your enemy. A person can be your enemy irrespective of your love, hate or indifference to them.

So yes there are people who are my enemies in this world, I am not an enemy towards them but they hate me because I Love Him, they hate me because I embrace His Word, They are an enemy towards me.



That's exactly what the devil wants you to think. It is all so convinient for you. You have no part to play here, it is so convenient. You see, if all "christians" believe that and don't carry the cross, there is no world peace.

You are calling the Book of Revelation and the books of the OT prophets books of satan. I tell you most clearly. No matter how much you work for world peace, It will never come through the Work of man. This does not mean that being a peacemaker is a waste of time. We can do much to promote peace and bring about reconciliation between peoples through actions of Love. BUT we will never achieve World peace. That will only be achieved when God Changes people at the resurrection.

But only those who carry the cross are truly his disciples. People like that young girl who died in the beginning of the Iraq war, crushed by a tank while protesting for Peace. I don't care if she said "I accept Jesus in my heart, DUH". I don't care. I know she's in heaven now, and she is one of the few who touched my heart.

You do not know where she is. God knows where she is.



The kingdom of heaven is within us. God is within us. The second coming is us.

The Kingdom of Heaven is the Holy Spirit Working within true Christians. The Second coming and the establishment of the Kingdom on earth is not yet achieved. Jesus will do it upon His second coming.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

People ar enot evil. Some of their actions may be "evil", but they are not intrinsically evil. Their actions change according to their circumstances. People behave "evil" because of the way they are treated, and because of their circumstances. They are not intrinsically evil, in their hearts. Nobody deserves hell.


And your foundation states that everyone is intrinsically evil. Which is terrible, and anti-christian. Ever heard "hate the sin, not the sinner"? That's what the "love your enemies" scripture is all about. Your belief that mankind is intrinsically evil exposes an ignorance or at least a lack of understanding of the scriptures.

Nobody is born a serial killer. They become a serial killer through years of systematic abuse inflicted upon them.

The basis of Christianity is the acceptance that all people are sinners and fall short of what is Good (in the eyes of God good.) So you stance is anti-Christian in the extreme. The very foundation of your thought process is faulty.

Also it is not hate to identify sin as wrong or a sinner as falling short of the Good of God. It is Love to warn and reveal to a sinner that they are a sinner needing forgiveness for their sins. Your statement that We do not need Jesus for salvation runs totally opposite to the revealed truth of the Holy Spirit.

Whatever you are, whatever your beliefs, You are not a Christian.


So how could you live in heaven for an eternity if your mind can't experience eternity?

Because as i have stated before so many times, That upon the resurrection God will Change us. We will not be as we are now. We will be part of a New Creation. Therefore we will be equipped to handle the needs of eternity.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

So if you are doing what you only want to do anyway then where is the burden upon you? What cross are you carrying?
Who said I'm doing whatever I want to? That's exactly what YOU say when you state that just saying "I accept Jesus" is enough! What cross are YOU carrying?

It is easy to do the things we want to do anyway there is no burden there. The burden comes from trusting in God and going places we do not want to go and doing things we do not want to do. Then it becomes a burden.
Yeah, well, and that's exactly with murderes turned "chirstians".... :rolleyes:

Many embrace the Words of Jesus that they are in agreement with, and those Words are not a burden at all. It's When they face the difficult Words of Jesus , Things that they find hard to agree with or accept, That's When you will find out who is prepared to carry a cross for the Lord and who is unwilling.
And what are those "difficult words" you have in mind?

An enemy is an enemy because of their opposition to you or what you stand for. You do not need to be their enemy for them to be your enemy. A person can be your enemy irrespective of your love, hate or indifference to them.
So are you saying that you are not in opposition to them or what they stand for?

So yes there are people who are my enemies in this world, I am not an enemy towards them but they hate me because I Love Him, they hate me because I embrace His Word, They are an enemy towards me.
That's not why they hate you. I don't think they give a shit about whether you love God or not.

You are calling the Book of Revelation and the books of the OT prophets books of satan.
Huummm... I wouldn't go that far. I'm sure there is human influence in those books, but they are not completely satan's either, I don't think....

I tell you most clearly. No matter how much you work for world peace, It will never come through the Work of man. This does not mean that being a peacemaker is a waste of time.
Oh REALLY? What does it mean, then?

We can do much to promote peace and bring about reconciliation between peoples through actions of Love. BUT we will never achieve World peace. That will only be achieved when God Changes people at the resurrection.
I don't know. I ain't God so I won't dispute that statement.

You do not know where she is. God knows where she is.
If God is a loving omnipotent, she's in heaven.

The Kingdom of Heaven is the Holy Spirit Working within true Christians. The Second coming and the establishment of the Kingdom on earth is not yet achieved. Jesus will do it upon His second coming.
And what is this "second coming"? Seriously? Are we just going to sit down and wait?

The basis of Christianity is the acceptance that all people are sinners and fall short of what is Good (in the eyes of God good.) So you stance is anti-Christian in the extreme. The very foundation of your thought process is faulty.
Where have I stated that mankind is perfect? Want to call mankind "sinners"? Fine, knock it off. But who said we need to be perfect in order to not be "evil"? This is very black and white thinking. "Oh, I'm not perfect, therefore I must be a demon". Nonsense.

We may not be perfect, but we were still made in His image. Otherwise, we would not be capable of loving.

Also it is not hate to identify sin as wrong or a sinner as falling short of the Good of God.
Where did I say so?

It is Love to warn and reveal to a sinner that they are a sinner needing forgiveness for their sins.
Of course. However, to condemn the sinner for being "evil" does not help one bit.

Your statement that We do not need Jesus for salvation runs totally opposite to the revealed truth of the Holy Spirit.
I don't say we don't need "salvation". Again, what I dispute is the meaning of salvation.

Whatever you are, whatever your beliefs, You are not a Christian.
You are the one who is not a Christian. You are not carrying the cross. It's too much for you, isn't it? No. It's much better to just sit on a couch watching "survivor" and supporting the "war on terror". :rolleyes:

Regardless, you are not carrying the cross. You say you are a christian, you probably go to church every sunday, but that's about all you do. I mean... what's the point? Why would God reward people who are not carrying the cross but who state "I accept Jesus" and throw in eternal damnation people who are truly loving and give their whole heart and their own lives to the betterment of mankind as a whole, but who never heard of Jesus or said "I accept Jesus"? Nonsense. A loving, rational, omnipotent God would never behave in such way.

Because as i have stated before so many times, That upon the resurrection God will Change us. We will not be as we are now. We will be part of a New Creation. Therefore we will be equipped to handle the needs of eternity.
Or possibly, our true original nature will be revealed? :shrug:

I don't say we don't need "salvation". Again, what I dispute is the meaning of salvation.



Salvation?
Following Jesus by example.
Attain that oneness with God that Jesus had.
This I believe is the ultimate goal.

This concept did not sit well with the early orthodox church fathers so therefore it was more to a political advantage and for their own gain to change it to a personality cult religion.
If you don't "bear the cross" ,to me, it seems more like the easy way out..a copout which I don't believe was the original intent.

Salvation?
Following Jesus by example.
Attain that oneness with God that Jesus had.
This I believe is the ultimate goal.

This concept did not sit well with the early orthodox church fathers so therefore it was more to a political advantage and for their own gain to change it to a personality cult religion.
If you don't "bear the cross" ,to me, it seems more like the easy way out..a copout which I don't believe was the original intent.
Jesus was a rebel. Of course he wouldn't want us to just sit down and wait for him to come back.