Here is an interesting article by Admiral Thomas Moorer in the Houston Chronicle on the Liberty incident. Makes me wonder why it has taken so long for these types of facts to come to the public.

The sailors of the USS Liberty deserve an honest investigation to bring the truth forward.

From here: http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/editorial/outlook/2345393

Betrayal behind Israeli attack on U.S. ship
By ADM. THOMAS MOORER

After State Department officials and historians assembled in Washington, D.C., last week to discuss the 1967 war in the Middle East, I am compelled to speak out about one of U.S. history's most shocking cover-ups.

On June 8, 1967, Israel attacked our proud naval ship -- the USS Liberty -- killing 34 American servicemen and wounding 172. Those men were then betrayed and left to die by our own government.

U.S. military rescue aircraft were recalled, not once, but twice, through direct intervention by the Johnson administration. Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara's cancellation of the Navy's attempt to rescue the Liberty, which I personally confirmed from the commanders of the aircraft carriers America and Saratoga, was the most disgraceful act I witnessed in my entire military career.

To add insult to injury, Congress, to this day, has failed to hold formal hearings on Israel's attack on this American ship. No official investigation of Israel's attack has ever permitted the testimony of the surviving crew members.

A 1967 investigation by the Navy, upon which all other reports are based, has now been fully discredited as a cover-up by its senior attorney. Capt. Ward Boston, in a sworn affidavit, recently revealed that the court was ordered by the White House to cover up the incident and find that Israel's attack was "a case of mistaken identity."

Some distinguished colleagues and I formed an independent commission to investigate the attack on the USS Liberty. After an exhaustive review of previous reports, naval and other military records, including eyewitness testimony from survivors, we recently presented our findings on Capitol Hill. They include:

· Israeli reconnaissance aircraft closely studied the Liberty during an eight-hour period prior to the attack, one flying within 200 feet of the ship. Weather reports confirm the day was clear with unlimited visibility. The Liberty was a clearly marked American ship in international waters, flying an American flag and carrying large U.S. Navy hull letters and numbers on its bow.

Despite claims by Israeli intelligence that they confused the Liberty with a small Egyptian transport, the Liberty was conspicuously different from any vessel in the Egyptian navy. It was the most sophisticated intelligence ship in the world in 1967. With its massive radio antennae, including a large satellite dish, it looked like a large lobster and was one of the most easily identifiable ships afloat.

· Israel attempted to prevent the Liberty's radio operators from sending a call for help by jamming American emergency radio channels.

· Israeli torpedo boats machine-gunned lifeboats at close range that had been lowered to rescue the most seriously wounded.

As a result, our commission concluded that:

· There is compelling evidence that Israel's attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew.

· In attacking the USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder against U.S. servicemen and an act of war against the United States

· The White House knowingly covered up the facts of this attack from the American people.

· The truth continues to be concealed to the present day in what can only be termed a national disgrace.

What was Israel's motive in launching this attack? Congress must address this question with full cooperation from the National Security Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency and the military intelligence services.

The men of the USS Liberty represented the United States. They were attacked for two hours, causing 70 percent of American casualties, and the eventual loss of our best intelligence ship.

These sailors and Marines were entitled to our best defense. We gave them no defense.

Did our government put Israel's interests ahead of our own? If so, why? Does our government continue to subordinate American interests to Israeli interests? These are important questions that should be investigated by an independent, fully empowered commission of the American government.

The American people deserve to know the truth about this attack. We must finally shed some light on one of the blackest pages in American naval history. It is a duty we owe not only to the brave men of the USS Liberty, but to every man and woman who is asked to wear the uniform of the United States.



Moorer was chairman of the joint chiefs of staff from 1970 to 1974. He is joined in the independent commission of inquiry by Gen. Ray Davis (recently deceased); Rear Adm. Merlin Staring; former Judge Advocate General of the Navy and Ambassador James Akins.

Just a fair warning: Get ready for pothead to throw out all of the nebulous reasons why Israel would never try to cover this up.

An IDF unit was engaged in the process of executing Egyptian prisoners of war when the Liberty unfortunately came into view on the Mediterranean horizon. The USS Liberty was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and American leadership ultimately agreed. Case closed.

Hypewagers
I disagree the case can not be closed until there is an accounting of why the US government prohibited rescue efforts.

Too confusing to the American public, and too embarrassing to Israel.

The American public is wiser tha you think. Israel will survive.

I am not opposed to the survival of Israel. I am opposed to the survival of oppression, disposession, and other ethnic/historic/religiously-justified crime.

I am not opposed to the survival of Israel. I am opposed to the survival of oppression, disposession, and other ethnic/historic/religiously-justified crime.

Inherant contradiction.

Israel is just a name on a map. Inside those lines are people who can live together, without ever undoing the wrongs of the past, but moving forward in repudiation of greater injury and reprisal.

The only way hype at least imho, is a one state solution, seperation has hardly ever worked. Not Israel, and no Palestine. One federation, living in peace, as equals. Otherwise there is no end to this cycle.

I agree .

The only way hype at least imho, is a one state solution, seperation has hardly ever worked. Not Israel, and no Palestine. One federation, living in peace, as equals. Otherwise there is no end to this cycle.

whatever u don't know anything about great Israel. I respect them too much and i think watever they did was right and to all isarelis here, we are with you. whatever you think, israel did the right think.

Interesting...some twenty years ago my brother attended a forum on the USS Liberty in which a survivor was present. This ex-American sailor spoke of floating in the debris of his ship while Israeli jets machine-gunned his shipmates in the water. BTW, my brother had to walk a gauntlet of the JDL screaming, "Lies!" on his way out of that forum.

It's twenty years later and I have no better understanding what really happened to the Liberty.

Michael

An IDF unit was engaged in the process of executing Egyptian prisoners of war when the Liberty unfortunately came into view on the Mediterranean horizon. The USS Liberty was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and American leadership ultimately agreed.

whatever u don't know anything about great Israel.

You mean ertez Israel? Sure I know. More reason to stop the cancer now...

I respect them too much and i think watever they did was right and to all isarelis here, we are with you. whatever you think, israel did the right think.

I always love to see neo-fascism alive and kicking.

That is like saying the people in the twin towers were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

An IDF unit was engaged in the process of executing Egyptian prisoners of war when the Liberty unfortunately came into view on the Mediterranean horizon. The USS Liberty was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and American leadership ultimately agreed. Case closed.
Most accurate and concise summary you'll ever get.

More reason to stop the cancer now...
tsk tsk tsk

An IDF unit was engaged in the process of executing Egyptian prisoners of war when the Liberty unfortunately came into view on the Mediterranean horizon.
no evidence has ever been presented. only accusations.

The USS Liberty was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and American leadership ultimately agreed. Case closed.
that's right. they were in a war zone when they should have been "hundreds of miles away", as a senior US fact-finding official said.
the fact-finding commitee also agreed it was recklessness.
but there have been at least 10 other official investigations of this, both by the israelis and the americans... and it always comes to the same conclusion.

This ex-American sailor spoke of floating in the debris of his ship while Israeli jets machine-gunned his shipmates in the water
that probably happened

my brother had to walk a gauntlet of the JDL screaming, "Lies!" on his way out of that forum
that depends on what else was said
whatever... JDL, they get a bad rap. anyone care to open a thread about them? :D

An IDF unit was engaged in the process of executing Egyptian prisoners of war when the Liberty unfortunately came into view on the Mediterranean horizon. The USS Liberty was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and American leadership ultimately agreed. Case closed.

The case can't be closed that easily. Not that I'm defending Israel, because I think there are a lot of unanswered question still, but it was James Bamford who made the accusation about the IDF executions taking place on the Egyptian prisoners. His account of that incident, as well as other key points in his book, have drawn much skepticism. Much of his research was extremely weak and been seriously challenged. This case is still very much wide open.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/2001/07/071701.html

This case is still very much wide open.
so is the case about existence of aliens, and the man with two penises

so is the case...the man with two penises

Can he use both at the same time?

the case is still under investigation :rolleyes:

So what did happen otheadp?
Are you suggesting the Air Force confused a state of the art USN recon vessel for an old egyptian transport ship? Are the IDF really that poor?
I think I'd have more respect for the Isrealies if they'd done it on purpose!
Executing captured prisoners? Never! If they were I'm sure you'd condemn them for it.
Dee Cee

The conundrum for Israel in this case:

Pretend that you didn't know the difference between an old Egyptian freighter and U.S. Navy communications ship thus admitting the incompetence of not just one, but many IDF airmen and sailors.

Boast that you have the finest fighting forces in the world and that the Liberty got what she deserved.

Either way you lose.

Either way they deserve to lose. They are either too incompetent to be trusted with weapons or they are consciousless and not to be trusted.

I am more concerned that the USA administration was never censured for prohibiting rescue operations. We are discussing the same cast of characters who brought us the Gulf of Tonkien incident.

15ofthe19

thus admitting the incompetence of not just one, but many IDF airmen and sailors.
i don't see how the failure of the few would mean the whole organization is incompetent

Boast that you have the finest fighting forces in the world
1) nobody's perfect
2) at that time, it was better to be safe than sorry...

and that the Liberty got what she deserved.
did you read the interview with one of the pilots?
he was angry wasn't he..

the americans should've notified their allies that they were there.
the fact they didn't notify is incompetence on their part, in itself.

everything else is subjective opinions and theories.

Pothead, you obviously don't get me. I'm the biggest ally of Israel you've got on this board, but facts are facts, and Israel farked up on this one.

I don't seek to indict the nation over the failure of a few anymore than I seek to indict the Americans that were involved in the cover up and subsequent spin that followed this tragic event. The simple facts are clear. Israel attacked an American warship in international waters. Israel had many motives for doing so. The U.S. has just as many motives for not making a big issue out of it. Let's agree that both sides were conflicted at the time. I can admit to all of that. Why can't you?

you obviously don't get me. I'm the biggest ally of Israel
i know that already :)

Israel had many motives for doing so
a) questionable motives
b) having motives, even solid ones, do not make you automatically guilty or cross out simple negligence

Israel farked up on this one
who exactly do you think gave the order?
did it come from the chief of the navy?
or from the little dispatcher at the war room?
he must have consulted with someone higher than him up the command chain...
how high did it reach before the decision was made?
or maybe the pilots decided on their own...

i'm just trying to picture this... a bunch of pilots receive an order from the IDF war room "this is a US ship. destroy it" and them actually agreeing with it...
you gotta understand somethign about Israelis - they question orders if they don't make sense... they ask questions. that's the israeli mentality..
it's just beyond my ability to come to terms with the fact that all of these pilots accepted that order, and then on purpose shelled that ship for over an hour..
and then, to top it off, did not finish it off by sinking it... so the survivers could tell the story and create the controversy...
if it was imperative to destroy that ship, it would've been destroyed. don't you agree?

so many things just completely don't make sense to me...

the cover up and subsequent spin
over 10 investigations... some cover up

The U.S. has just as many motives for not making a big issue out of it
if things did happen the way you say they did, then sure, the US would have motives to not make a big issue out of it.

An IDF unit was engaged in the process of executing Egyptian prisoners of war when the Liberty unfortunately came into view on the Mediterranean horizon. The USS Liberty was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and American leadership ultimately agreed. Case closed.Now really, this is just silly.

There aren't any unanswered questions about why the Liberty was attacked. It's all quite well documented. I don't normally post this sort of long history lesson, but it looks like this thread badly needs it. Also I think that the Liberty is important and interesting, so here it goes.

Over the course of the Six Day War of 1967, it became clear that the Israeli military was far superior to the militaries of the Arab nations that had attacked them. Once all the attacking forces had been destroyed, Israel launched a counter-attack against neighboring Arab countries and began taking over as much land as possible. By the 4th day, the UN had imposed a cease-fire that all sides agreed to.

Israel wasn't quite done yet; they still wanted to snatch up the Golan Heights from Syria, despite the cease-fire and the fact that Syria hadn't actually attacked Israel yet during the war. Israel began positing aircraft and ground forces for a push into Syria.

The United States didn't want Israel to attack Syria, for several reasons. President Johnson didn't like the idea of Israel ignoring a cease-fire in order to invade a country that didn't pose much of a threat to it. More importantly, Syria had very close ties to the Soviet Union at the time. The US was worried that if Israel began attacking Syria, the USSR might use it as an excuse to send its own troops to the region in defense of Syria, much in the same way that the US sent troops to Vietnam. This would allow them to establish a major communist presence in the region. Israel knew that it would have a very short window of opportunity to grab Syrian land before international pressure – and perhaps the soviet army- forced them to back down. Israel denied that they had any plans to attack Syria, and claimed that the troops were only being deployed to the Syrian boarder incase the Syrians decided to launch an attack.

Enter the USS Liberty. The Liberty was a signals-intelligence ship. Its mission was to intercept and decode radio transmissions, a task that it was very good at, as the Israelis well knew. The Israelis knew that it would only be a matter of time before the Liberty decoded intercepted communications from their force that was preparing to invade Syria, and that the Liberty would almost certainly pass them back to the US. If that happened, there would be all sorts of things that the US could do to interfere with their plans. The simplest would be to simply announce to the world what Israel was planning, which would probably create enough diplomatic pressure to force Israel to call off the invasion. The US would also be able to pressure Israel from behind the scenes, by threatening to revoke the very lucrative trade deals that they had going. Or they could simply warn the Syrians.

Anyway, the Liberty knew something that the Israelis didn’t want it to know, so they destroyed it. They bombed, strafed, and torpedoed the ship. The first attack was aimed at the Liberty's communications systems, probably in an attempt to prevent them from calling for help. They also jammed US naval frequencies. When the Liberty began lowering lifeboats, Israeli patrol boats moved in and began machine-gunning the lifeboats. It was a clear and deliberate attempt to secretly destroy the ship and kill everyone on board. Unfortunately for the Israelis, the boat stubbornly refused to sink despite repeated torpedo and rocket attacks. When it became clear to the Israelis that the boat wasn't going to sink fast enough for the attack to have been a secret, they decided to call off the attack. As damage control against the political fallout, they claimed that they had thought that the Liberty was an Egyptian troop ship, which was obviously absurd. Nearly everyone on board the Liberty was killed or injured.

The Johnson administration simply brushed the whole incident under the rug, issuing orders that no one in the government could discuss the matter. A CIA report later confirmed that the Israelis had decided to launch the attack on the Liberty in order to keep their invasion of Syria secret. Israel proceeded with their attack on Syria the next day, capturing the Golan Heights. The amount of land controlled by Israel tripled during the war.

If you think it's shocking that the US government would decide to ignore such outrageous actions by Israel, I agree with you.

Nasor,
Thank you. I had not known that Syria was not part of the original attack on Israel. It puts the question of whether Israel has any claim to the Golan Heights in a very different perspective.

and the man with two penises

Naw, that case is closed. I can see both my penises from right here.

Posted by Nasor:
President Johnson didn't like the idea of Israel ignoring a cease-fire in order to invade a country that didn't pose much of a threat to it.

I'd say that's a grossly subjective statement. The military significance of the Golan Heights is obvious. I'm not sure how you could conclude that Syria was not a threat to Israel. Care to elaborate on that theory?

While Syria's possession of a strategic position may give it an advantage that would not justify seizing it if Syria had not participated in the attack on Israel. Israel is not entitled to the land just because Israel wants it. Bad behavior by past generations is no excuse to tolerate injustice in the present.

The Israeli's illegally occupy the Golan Heights, now Israel in 1981 illegally seized that territory and has built settlements, in stark contradiction to the UN demands. Israel has I believe about over 60 broken UN SC resolutions, Iraq had around 12.

I'd say that's a grossly subjective statement. The military significance of the Golan Heights is obvious. I'm not sure how you could conclude that Syria was not a threat to Israel. Care to elaborate on that theory?Syria's entire air force had been virtually destroyed and they had no appreciable ground forces; certainly nothing that would pose a threat to the IDF.

I should have been more clear in my original post. Although Syria didn't try to invade Israel, they did lend military support to Egypt, mainly in the form of air support for the Egyptian army when Israel launched its counter attack against the Egyptians. So while there was no serious threat of Syria invading Israel, Syria hadn't exactly just been watching from the sidelines.

The main reason that the US didn't want Israel invading Syria was fear that the USSR would use it as a pretext to send a lot of troops to Syria and turn it into a Soviet satellite state. Any moral objections that Johnson might have had to the invasion were really secondary considerations.

that's right. they were in a war zone when they should have been "hundreds of miles away", as a senior US fact-finding official said.


They were in international waters.
Even if they weren't, is it still okay to attack the ship of a nation that is supposed to be your "friend"?


the fact-finding commitee also agreed it was recklessness.

Which fact-finding committee?

Being in international waters is reckless?

How far away would a ship have to have been from Israel before it is no longer "reckless"? Would it have been okay for them to sink a yacht off the coast of Monaco if they thought it was an Egyptian freighter?

but there have been at least 10 other official investigations of this, both by the israelis and the americans... and it always comes to the same conclusion.

The "conclusion" that seems to be reached is denying justice to the murdered crewman of the USS Liberty.

An interesting article: Friendless Fire? (http://www.usni.org/proceedings/Articles03/PROwalsh06.htm)

The "conclusion" that seems to be reached is denying justice to the murdered crewman of the USS Liberty.Realistically, what could Johnson have done about it? Is avenging the crew of a destroyer worth handing Syria over to the Soviets?

Realistically, what could Johnson have done about it? Is avenging the crew of a destroyer worth handing Syria over to the Soviets?

Realistically, he could have cut off that large chunk of change the US annually gives Israel in military aid.

Realistically the US should have launched fighter cover to defend Liberty until rescue choppers arrived to evac the wounded. May God have mercy on the souls of those who chose not to defend Liberty.

Realistically the US should have launched fighter cover to defend Liberty until rescue choppers arrived to evac the wounded. May God have mercy on the souls of those who chose not to defend Liberty.The Navy launched planes as soon as they got the Liberty's distress call, but Israel had halted the attack and admitted to being responsible before they arrived. Someone posted a link to a website about the Liberty that gave the impression that Johnson called the planes back while the attack was still going on, basically deciding to stand by while the Liberty was attacked. This is not what happened. The attack was already over by the time the planes were called back. I suppose the planes could have struck Israeli targets in retaliation, but would that have really improved the situation for anyone?


No offense, but a lot of people here seem to be very naive. International politics are about expediency, not morality or quests for 'justice'. The US ignoring the Liberty incident is perhaps the millionth example of this that history has provided.

Realistically, what could Johnson have done about it? Is avenging the crew of a destroyer worth handing Syria over to the Soviets?

Spyke touched on one possible approach - cutting off foreign aid to Israel.

I would also imagine that an unprovoked attack against an American ship in international waters would be considered an act of war...

Here is an interesting article by Admiral Thomas Moorer in the Houston Chronicle on the Liberty incident. Makes me wonder why it has taken so long for these types of facts to come to the public.

The American people deserve to know the truth about this attack. We must finally shed some light on one of the blackest pages in American naval history. It is a duty we owe not only to the brave men of the USS Liberty, but to every man and woman who is asked to wear the uniform of the United States.

check out this old thread, I think we still need the US to do something about this, we shouldn't appease our so-called friends, that kill us without remorse or afterthought

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=8991

Realistically, what could Johnson have done about it? Is avenging the crew of a destroyer worth handing Syria over to the Soviets?

LOL
Well wouldn't that be the end of the world?
BTW I didn't know that the US/Isreal had Syria to 'hand over' in the first place. I would have thought that any decision to 'go Soviet' would have been a Syrian one.

No offense, but a lot of people here seem to be very naive. International politics are about expediency, not morality or quests for 'justice'. The US ignoring the Liberty incident is perhaps the millionth example of this that history has provided.

Err I thought that the nature of unprincipled political expediency was the topic of this thread.
What happens if it ever becomes politically expedient to fuck you over Nasor? Should we support you or just shrug our shoulders and forget you existed?

Expediency sucks.
Principles rule!
Dee Cee

Err I thought that the nature of unprincipled political expediency was the topic of this thread.
What happens if it ever becomes politically expedient to fuck you over Nasor? Should we support you or just shrug our shoulders and forget you existed?My point is that Johnson's actions regarding the Liberty are typical of US foreign policy decisions. If anyone is surprised by this sort of thing, it means they probably haven't spent much time studying international politics. The Liberty incident is really pretty far down on the 'moral outrage' scale compared to many of the other things that governments have done recently in the name of expediency.

I thought I heard that retired Adm. Moorer had recently passed away so the issue of the sinking of Liberty will no longer have his testimony.

I thought I heard that retired Adm. Moorer had recently passed away so the issue of the sinking of Liberty will no longer have his testimony.
Do you mean?
http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listserv.aol.com/msg110421.html

or?
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/pers-us/uspers-m/w-mcgngl.htm

or the commander from the "USS Pueblo", boarded by the N. Koreans?

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/9062/

Thought I heard on Newshour that retired Adm. Thomas Moorer passed away last week. He was in his nineties.

Nasor's longer post was excellent, except that for the IAF to blind American sigint, they would have needed to also attack many other listening posts, even those as far away as Rota and Sinop. Somebody was very concerned about information from a VHF and/or visual source that only Liberty was in position to monitor.

While I am disgusted by what the Israeli's did to this ship and her crew, I am equally disgusted by how little the Six Fleet did to protect this ship. Those Israeli PT boats should have been blown out of the water, and any Israeli aircraft, like the helos, should have been shot down as the Sixth Fleet rescue craft and combat support aircraft converged on the scene of the crime. Unfortunately the U.S. leadership at the time lacked the stones to do the right thing, for fear of upsetting the Ruskies. Syria's fate be damned, we could have defended our own ship, and chose not to. That's the most aggravating part of this whole incident. The poor ship was under attack for almost two hours and no one came to help them.

Very beautiful and touching site about the USS Liberty:

http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/

The Attack by Israel on USS liberty was a terrorist attack that went unpunished, no wonder, it is Israel and the zionists who run America.

''Every time we do something, you [Shimon Peres] tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”

— Ariel Sharon
Israeli Prime Minister, homicidal psychopath
Jewish Mafia member
Knesset, Tel Aviv, October 3, 2001

Very beautiful and touching site about the USS Liberty:

http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/



''Every time we do something, you [Shimon Peres] tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”

— Ariel Sharon
Israeli Prime Minister, homicidal psychopath
Jewish Mafia member
Knesset, Tel Aviv, October 3, 2001

thanks for both quotes, makes you think

Here is something from an old post about the attack on the USS Liberty:

2 hour attack off Egypt's coast, 34 killed, 171 wounded, 821 rocket & machine gun holes, 40 ft hole from a torpedo boat, high performance jets, naplam from slower jets, buzzed by photo-reconaissence planes 13 times.
1) 6-7-67 Israeli troops staged by Lake Tiberias for Syrian assault @ 6-8-67 1130 hrs
2) 6-8-67 0600 hours, 170 milesfrom site, is reconned boxcar
3) 6-8-67 0900 hrs, 160 from site reconned by jet
4) 6-8-67 1000 hrs, reconned by 2 jets, reports American flag
5) 6-8-67 Israel delays Syrian assault 24 hours
6) 6-8-67 1030 hrs, reconned by boxcar
7) 6-8-67 1100 hrs, reconned by boxcar
8) 6-8-67 1130 hrs, reconned by boxcar
9) 6-8-67 1200 hrs, 3 torpedo boads race for the Liberty from Ashdod
10) 6-8-67 1215 hrs, reconned by boxcar
11) 6-8-67 1245, rec by boxcar
12) 6-8-67 1400, attack starts
13) 6-8-67 1409 , USS Saratoga acknolwedges cry for help from attack
14) 6-8-67 1435 torpedo explosion kills 25
15) 6-8-67 torpedo boats circle, shoot at firefighters
16) 6-8-67 1515, torpedo boats fire on life rafts, then leave
17) 6-8-671632 torpedo boats return, offer assistance
18) 6-9-67 1130 hrs, Israel invades Syria

"Assault on the Liberty",
the true story of the Israeli Attack on an American Intelligence Ship'
by James M. Ennes, Jr.
1979 RandomHouse,
NewYork

good info on a boxcar
http://www.bermuda-triangle.org/Investigations/C-119_Flying_Boxcar/c-119_flying_boxcar.html

Spyke touched on one possible approach - cutting off foreign aid to Israel. I would also imagine that an unprovoked attack against an American ship in international waters would be considered an act of war...So you'd have the US cut off one of it's hands because it slapped it's face?

slapslapslapslapslapslapslapslapslap...(sigh)slaps lapslapslapslapslapslap...

You people are making this more complicated than it really is. The fact is that US forein aid to Israel before the six day war was made of very small loans, starting in the late 1950s. None of these loans were military. The huge chunks of cash you refer to did not come untill AFTER the Six Day War, when the aid was kick-started with Operation Nickel Grass - an airlift of fuel and ammunition to Israel on account of the Yom Kippur War, second only to the Berlin airlift in size. Before '67 Israel had bought many American missiles, they BOUGHT them with their own money, they were not given them. Cutting off forein aid at a time when it did not exist is ridiculous. US aid to South Korea is almost twice as much, if not more so than aid to Israel since '73. US aid to Israel, from 1973 to the present, is around $73 to $74 billion.

Eisenhower made a threat to bomb Tel-aviv in 1956 to stop the Sinai Campaign, which was an Israeli effort to stop, or at least hinder border raids from that region, then an all too common occurence. The Liberty was a ship in a war zone because it was within range of radio traffic, it belonged to a nation that Israel did not yet trust, and it was proven to have been spying.

Yes, Israel knew it was American, but being American does not give you a free pass to intrude upon a war zone. 24 hours before the attack Israel told the US to get their ship out of those waters, the US meant to, but a scheduling error doomed Liberty's crew. Saying that Liberty was just looking to see if the Russians were going to enter the war is ridiculous, Mossad had that covered.

Shortly before '67 Israeli intelligence had also captured a MiG-21 from the Iraqi Air Force and given it to the US, so both countries owed eachother, it wasn't a lopsided alliance.

It was better to knock out Syria's military while they could than wait for them to be a serious threat, as Syria had made it clear many times that they very much wished to see Israel destroyed and wished to participate in any action to do so if and when they could. War is not supposed to be a fair fight.

It's a shame the crew of the Liberty is not angry at their own commanders for leaving them there and not notifying them of what the Israelis told them to do. But of course, they chose the world's most popular scapegoat: the JEWS

''Every time we do something, you [Shimon Peres] tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”

— Ariel Sharon

Seems to be an urban legend that exists only on the Internet. No record from any credible media source that that quote was ever made. First appeared in a release by the Islamic Association for Palestine, a pro-Hamas organization, but there is no record of the Israeli news source that the IAP reported it coming from ever releasing such a statement.

Yes, Israel knew it was American, but being American does not give you a free pass to intrude upon a war zone. 24 hours before the attack Israel told the US to get their ship out of those waters,
in International waters? what wardog barbarians


Saying that Liberty was just looking to see if the Russians were going to enter the war is ridiculous, Mossad had that covered.
our right, in international waters


Shortly before '67 Israeli intelligence had also captured a MiG-21 from the Iraqi Air Force and given it to the US, so both countries owed eachother, it wasn't a lopsided alliance.
owe? please, if it wasn't for the US, you'd be awash in the Med, which is why most fanatic muslims hate us, for supporting Israel so blindly


It's a shame the crew of the Liberty is not angry at their own commanders for leaving them there and not notifying them of what the Israelis told them to do.
blaming the victim, are we?


But of course, they chose the world's most popular scapegoat: the JEWS

what? the oldest trick in the book, "whoa is me, I'm jewish, nobody loves me". stop crying, if the US was such an ally, why didn't the Israelis trust them? And if the US wasn't such an ally, why didn't they sever all ties & declare Israel an "enemy combatant"?, which I would have, I want an official apology from both the Israelis (for doing it) & the US (for not doing anything about it)

in International waters? what wardog barbarians


Yes, everyone has the God-given right to spy wherever they want, and on whomever they please, but not the international right. Since the first paleolithic societies ran into conflict with eachother, it has been an understanding amongst spies that if a spy is ever caught by another side, enemy, neutral, or even ally, he will most likely be killed.


our right, in international waters


What I said above works with this statement of yours as well.


owe? please, if it wasn't for the US, you'd be awash in the Med, which is why most fanatic muslims hate us, for supporting Israel so blindly


We'd be awash in the Med ey? Prove it.


blaming the victim, are we?


No more than you blame those who survived the holocaust for the creation of a "fascist" state.


what? the oldest trick in the book, "whoa is me, I'm jewish, nobody loves me". stop crying, if the US was such an ally, why didn't the Israelis trust them? And if the US wasn't such an ally, why didn't they sever all ties & declare Israel an "enemy combatant"?, which I would have, I want an official apology from both the Israelis (for doing it) & the US (for not doing anything about it)


Randolfo, so far you have not refuted a single thing i said, if you want to have a reasonable debate here, put some facts on the table instead of spewing raw emotions. And as for Jews "whining", i should say the same about you with the USS liberty.


Now, let me try something new here. Let's say that since the end of WWII Mexico and Canada had longed for the destruction of the US. Let's say the US endured two short, furious wars in this time, the first with both Mexico and Canada, the second only a quick campaign in Northern Mexico to help slow terrorist activities there.

Since before both wars the US had not been in control of territory it claimed as it's own. US farmers to the north had experienced shelling from artillery based in Southern Canada, from one of the areas they claimed as their own. Southerners had also experienced a lot of terrorism stemming from the Mexican border.

So, in 1967 the US took preemptive action and destroyed over 90% of the Mexican Air Force, launching a major war. At the end of this war American forces took control over all territories that they had made claims over in the past, and some more land in addition.

Near the beginning of the war however an Israeli ship, an old rusty German cargo carrier from WWII, converted by Mossad for intelligence duty, laid off the east coast of the US. In international waters. Listening to radio chatter. The US saw the ship and gave Israel 24 hours to withdraw from the warzone, or see their ship destroyed. Through a scheduling error Israel failed to comply, and the attack begun. Fighters machine gunned lifeboats, torpedoe boats came and blew holes in the ship, etc., etc. And from that time to the present, there has been a huge outcry for an investigation, and anger about a coverup.

Now switch it around, and this time, look at a globe, at the East Mediteranean, look at the size of Israel...

Non-combantant ships have the right of free passage in international waters. This has been the recognized standard for hundreds of years in the Western world. Israel had no right to fire on Liberty. It was a war crime. It was a crime against humanity to fire on the lifeboats even if they had been Egyptian.

Candy, I'd like to see some examples of this rule, especially during wartime, about espionage.

Here's some of the applicable law (http://usslibertyinquiry.com/commentary/travesty/evidenceignore4.html), which the Chief Counsel for the Court of Inquiry (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20040217-9999-1n17liberty.html) has now admitted was not applied, because the CoI was ordered by President Johnson and Secretary McNamara to summarily rule the attack an accident.

Yes, everyone has the God-given right to spy wherever they want, and on whomever they please, but not the international right. Since the first paleolithic societies ran into conflict with eachother, it has been an understanding amongst spies that if a spy is ever caught by another side, enemy, neutral, or even ally, he will most likely be killed.
hmm, let's do that to Pollard, some ally we have, that shots at our ships, at lifeboats too? isn't that a war crime?

We'd be awash in the Med ey? Prove it. that's easy to prove, cut all the purse-strings, let Israel make it on its own, make any donation that goes to the State of Israel, taxable if it can not be proven to be for honest charities

Randolfo, so far you have not refuted a single thing i said, if you want to have a reasonable debate here, put some facts on the table instead of spewing raw emotions. And as for Jews "whining", i should say the same about you with the USS liberty.

do a little reading, here's a book:
"Assault on the Liberty",
the true story of the Israeli Attack on an American Intelligence Ship'
by James M. Ennes, Jr.
1979 RandomHouse,
NewYork

Near the beginning of the war however an Israeli ship, an old rusty German cargo carrier from WWII, converted by Mossad for intelligence duty, laid off the east coast of the US. In international waters. Listening to radio chatter. The US saw the ship and gave Israel 24 hours to withdraw from the warzone, or see their ship destroyed. Israel giving the US orders? a so-called ally, threathening its major donor state? I guess thats chutzpah, to the nth degree

Now switch it around, and this time, look at a globe, at the East Mediteranean, look at the size of Israel...
don't try to justify it on size, that country could not exist without the US nipple, feeding it; money, arms, tech, know-how

Flintlock
We are not discussing internal spying; we are discussing a neutral ship in international waters that was attacked including strafing lifeboats.

=Randolfo] hmm, let's do that to Pollard, some ally we have, that shots at our ships, at lifeboats too? isn't that a war crime?

It's an unfortunate incident, but the Israelis had no idea the US was actually going to withdraw the ship, they took the lack of American response as defiance. And as i said earlier, Israel owed the US NOTHING before '67

that's easy to prove, cut all the purse-strings, let Israel make it on its own, make any donation that goes to the State of Israel, taxable if it can not be proven to be for honest charities

You are only repeating what you said earlier, you have yet to prove to me how Israel depends on the US. By the way, this guy would love to hear you talk about cutting the aid: http://www.zionet.co.il/manhigut/en/view_article_manhigut_en.php3?article_id=206

do a little reading, here's a book:
"Assault on the Liberty",
the true story of the Israeli Attack on an American Intelligence Ship'
by James M. Ennes, Jr.
1979 RandomHouse,
NewYork

Heard of it. Very, very whiny.

Israel giving the US orders? a so-called ally, threathening its major donor state? I guess thats chutzpah, to the nth degree

Major donor state? Wrong decade buddy. So, by your jingo-patriotic logic, Israel has no right to have a position on anything or take military action to ensure it's own survival?

don't try to justify it on size, that country could not exist without the US nipple, feeding it; money, arms, tech, know-how

Once again, prove it. And take a look at this site:http://israeli-weapons.com/ Looks to me like it's mutual on the technology factor and just the opposite as far as arms and "know-how" are concerned :cool:

Here's some of the applicable law (http://usslibertyinquiry.com/commentary/travesty/evidenceignore4.html), which the Chief Counsel for the Court of Inquiry (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20040217-9999-1n17liberty.html) has now admitted was not applied, because the CoI was ordered by President Johnson and Secretary McNamara to summarily rule the attack an accident.

So, according to this law of armed conflict, any unnecessarily brutal actions taken in warfare are illegal. As i said, Israel's attack was necessary, and there is always the little fact that Israel never signed anything about this, unless you wish to tell me otherwise.

The second link says that Liberty was in fact an intelligence ship, does it really go beyond that? Do you think Israel won the war in six days because she was incredibly nice and understanding? Liberty was a spy ship, it was warned to get out of the war zone (YES, the warzone, international waters are about 5 miles off the coast, the range of naval rifles is about 10 miles, and the range of radio traffic extends even further) in 24 hours, it did not comply, case closed. Now, time to worry about cancer, blood infections, and the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people who die in armed conflict every year all over the globe. We've been obsessing over less than 200 people for 37 years. Doesn't seem like we have much respect for the dead anymore these days.

"So, according to this law of armed conflict, any unnecessarily brutal actions taken in warfare are illegal"
Not just illegal, such actions on noncombattants, and upon the assets of nuetral countries in international waters have consequences. Such a violation is not dependent in law on the level of brutality, but of course brutality can aggravate the offense. For those who are in awe of the violence and drama of warfare, the idea of peacetime consequences is often scoffed at, but sanctions can have a profound effect on nations. Further, when law is not equally applied, the law is undermined. International law is also important for the security of Israel.

"Liberty was a spy ship, it was warned to get out of the war zone (YES, the warzone, international waters are about 5 miles off the coast..."
USS Liberty remained outside the 12 nm border of international waters, where Israel had no jurisdiction to issue an order to an American vessel, including a surveillance ship.

"it did not comply, case closed. Now, time to worry about..."
Israel did not have authority to order the USS Liberty to depart, neither could Israel attack the USS Liberty without it being considered a deliberate hostile act against the United States. The reason this case is not closed for many Americans is not so much to seek atonement for Israeli aggression.

The reason this case persists is because the US government conspired to deceive the American public regarding the incident, and the US government conspired to allow Israel immunity that the American public would certainly not have tolerated, had the circumstances of the attack been revealed to them. This is an important issue to Americans because such actions are antithetical to democracy.

For those who have issues, for whatever reasons, with other coverups involving Israel, (for example the circumstances and individuals involved in the terrorist bombing of the King David Hotel) the USS Liberty is a case where several corroborated eyewitness accounts exist, and because as we speak, several witnesses are reaching a stage in life when they are willing to speak much more candidly.

The recent Findings of the Independent Commission of Inquiry into the Israeli Attack on the USS Liberty (http://www.rescuemideastpolicy.com/Liberty%20Commission%20Findings.htm) are not fanciful thoughts of unqualified conspiracy theorists. Neither are they the product of individuals with vendettae against Israel. The clearly expressed motivation of these American Naval Officers and public servants is to defend the honor of the men who were killed and defamed, for the purpose of concealing a relationship with Israel that in many aspects has extended deeper into Washington than it has been publicly revealed. The problem many Americans have with this has nothing to do with anti-semitism, anti-zionism, religion, or the Levant, and everything to do with the necessary defense of democracy and national honor.

So, according to this law of armed conflict, any unnecessarily brutal actions taken in warfare are illegal. As i said, Israel's attack was necessary, and there is always the little fact that Israel never signed anything about this, unless you wish to tell me otherwise.


From:
http://www.ussliberty.org/supporters.htm
WHO SAYS THE LIBERTY ATTACK WAS DELIBERATE?
The following is a partial list of individuals and groups
that support the position that the attack was deliberate
This is the group that critic Jay Cristol calls "conspiracy theorists"
• Admiral Isaac C. Kidd, President of the Navy Court of Inquiry
• Etc…


From:
http://www.itszone.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?t=2916

washingtonpost.com
The Attack On Liberty
In 1967, Israeli Forces Bombarded a U.S. Intelligence Ship, Killing 34 Americans and Leaving a Legacy of Suspicion

By Ken Ringle
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, February 1, 2003; Page C01


On June 8, 1967, in one of the periodic explosions of violence we've learned to expect in the Middle East, an American intelligence ship named the USS Liberty was attacked with rockets, cannon fire and torpedoes while in international waters off the town of El Arish in the Sinai desert.

Thirty-four Americans were killed and 171 injured in what would remain the largest post-World War II loss of U.S. lives in the Middle East until the bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut in 1983.

But unlike that latter attack, or the 1983 truck bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut or the suicide bombing of the U.S. destroyer Cole in Aden, Yemen, which killed 17 less than three years ago, the attack on the Liberty was not made by terrorist bombs but by the jet fighters and torpedo boats of the nation of Israel.

The attack on the Liberty has never been fully explained. Official reports by both the Israelis and the U.S. Navy declared it accidental

=Randolfo]From:
http://www.ussliberty.org/supporters.htm

I have been to this site many times, it says nothing original, just a string of random quotes that say the obvious. One even confirms that Liberty was a spy ship. Would you want someone spying on the US during wartime?

From:
http://www.itszone.co.uk/zone0/viewtopic.php?t=2916

Brits have always been anti-Israel, ever since the Sinai Campaign of 1956. Recently a British magazine published a political cartoon portraying Sharon eating a Palestinian baby. The link says nothing I haven't heard.

=hypewaders]"So, according to this law of armed conflict, any unnecessarily brutal actions taken in warfare are illegal"
Not just illegal, such actions on noncombattants, and upon the assets of nuetral countries in international waters have consequences. Such a violation is not dependent in law on the level of brutality, but of course brutality can aggravate the offense. For those who are in awe of the violence and drama of warfare, the idea of peacetime consequences is often scoffed at, but sanctions can have a profound effect on nations. Further, when law is not equally applied, the law is undermined. International law is also important for the security of Israel.

Do you really think Israel would have sunk the ship if they had no reason? If it did not help them in any way? And don't give me that Egyptian POW nonsense, I've heard nothing but claims and random quotes about that. After all, what would be in it for them to slaughter prisoners like that? It would only taint their name further and incite greater hatred from other nations.

"Liberty was a spy ship, it was warned to get out of the war zone (YES, the warzone, international waters are about 5 miles off the coast..."
USS Liberty remained outside the 12 nm border of international waters, where Israel had no jurisdiction to issue an order to an American vessel, including a surveillance ship.

12 nautical miles is still within range of missile fire, and very much within range of radio transmissions. I fail to see how this international waters excuse means they were not in a war zone.

"it did not comply, case closed. Now, time to worry about..."
Israel did not have authority to order the USS Liberty to depart, neither could Israel attack the USS Liberty without it being considered a deliberate hostile act against the United States. The reason this case is not closed for many Americans is not so much to seek atonement for Israeli aggression.

I do agree with you as far as being angry over the cover-up. But with all the jingo-patriotism circulating through the US, do you really think Americans would be able to understand the truth had it been openly revealed?

The reason this case persists is because the US government conspired to deceive the American public regarding the incident, and the US government conspired to allow Israel immunity that the American public would certainly not have tolerated, had the circumstances of the attack been revealed to them. This is an important issue to Americans because such actions are antithetical to democracy.

Governments have always lied to the public, and they always will. Let's face it, the GP is incredibly stupid, and easy to spook and panic. I don't like the lies any more than you do, but we would most likely not be alive today without them. Even today, if the US was to go to war with Israel, they would win, but not without ENORMOUS casualties, and a lot of nuclear wasteland covering the country. The results would be bad for both countries.

For those who have issues, for whatever reasons, with other coverups involving Israel, (for example the circumstances and individuals involved in the terrorist bombing of the King David Hotel) the USS Liberty is a case where several corroborated eyewitness accounts exist, and because as we speak, several witnesses are reaching a stage in life when they are willing to speak much more candidly.

Do not bring the Irgun into this, they were a radical faction that was frowned upon and dispisd by other groups like the hagana. The King David Hotel was given a 4 hour warning before the blast to evacuate the building, most residents did not comply. I would like to hear some interviews with the Israeli fighter pilots and the crews of the torpedo ships as well as the Liberty crew.

The recent Findings of the Independent Commission of Inquiry into the Israeli Attack on the USS Liberty (http://www.rescuemideastpolicy.com/Liberty%20Commission%20Findings.htm) are not fanciful thoughts of unqualified conspiracy theorists. Neither are they the product of individuals with vendettae against Israel. The clearly expressed motivation of these American Naval Officers and public servants is to defend the honor of the men who were killed and defamed, for the purpose of concealing a relationship with Israel that in many aspects has extended deeper into Washington than it has been publicly revealed. The problem many Americans have with this has nothing to do with anti-semitism, anti-zionism, religion, or the Levant, and everything to do with the necessary defense of democracy and national honor.

I do not deny that it was a terrible tragedy, but what was Israel supposed to do? Just let it sit there and spy? Not follow through on their warning? Any other thing Israel could have done with the Liberty would have been interprited as a sign of weakness, and Israel cannot afford that.And believe me, if the IAF wanted the whole Liberty crew dead, they would be.

By the way, thank you for not turning your arguements into anti-Israel and anti-Jew/Zionist rantings. There are far to many offensive and racist posts on this thread and I'm happy to see that you can debate this topic fairly and civily without spewing lies and propaganda.

there was no reason to attack the Liberty
if there was one, it'd be swimming with the fishies

it's as simple as that, considering IDF's efficiency during the war

I would like to hear some interviews with the Israeli fighter pilots and the crews of the torpedo ships as well as the Liberty crew
there actually was an interview about 2 months ago in Ha'aretz with one of the pilots
it must be floating around somewhere.
he clearly said that he did not know it was a US ship.

WhatReallyHappened: (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ussliberty.html)
Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

AmericanFreePress (http://www.americanfreepress.net/08_22_01/Heroes_Vindicated_/heroes_vindicated_.html)
Fifteen years after the incident, the senior Israeli lead pilot, named Amon Even-Tov, approached Liberty survivors and former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role in the attack, according to James M. Ennes Jr., author of Assault on the Liberty.

What Israel was supposed to do was to let a neutral ship in International waters alone period; anything else would be an act of war.

What the USA was supposed to do was launch fighters from the nearest aircraftcarrier to provide covering air patrols for the Liberty and for the search and rescue helios that would come to the aid of the stricken ship. This is the response that the American public expects its government to exercise not to play polictical games with the lives of USA service personal.

Candy, don't spam the topic. The last thing I need today is another whiny American jingo. Start adressing some other factors like the fact that Israel did not trust the US, and that they could not afford the media geting into their hair during wartime. American media is second only to British media as far as nosiness is concerned. If you don't start saying something else, you're going on my ignore list.

Flintlock
I am not going to change my standards of right and wrong to accomodate you. Firing on a neutral vessel in international waters is wrong.

If you haven't read The USS Liberty Affair (http://www.ameu.org/page.asp?iid=92&aid=129&pg=1) by James M. Ennes (http://www.wrmea.com/archives/sept03/0309025.html), well, you should.

Good information there. You're right, Israel did want to capture the Golan. However, that doesn't answer why they wanted it. The Golan has Israel's only snow mountain on it, vital for observation, defense, and communication (which is sort of part of observation there). Israel is among the smallest nations on earth (aside from micronations), whereas the Arab countries put together equal about the same mass of land that the Soviet Union had. Israel would be too small and vulnerable to exist for long without the Golan.

Another point they forgot to make is that Israel is a soverein nation, and as such it does not take orders from other nations, including the United States. Israel told the US to get it's ship out of those waters, as that man said. US communications sucked, as he said. The message was not confirmed by washington, and the ship was left to die, as he said. All of these points have been the main part of my arguement, and you have just proven them for me, thank you.

Israel does not have to take orders from other nations but Israel does not have the right to order other nations out of International Waters. That others also have rights is something Israel seems blind to.

Israel is among the smallest nations on earth (aside from micronations), 2nd time you have said that, that has no baering, in that case Singapore should be the fearest dragon, a Chinese, Malay. Hindu enclave surrounded by Malaysia


whereas the Arab countries put together equal about the same mass of land that the Soviet Union had.
I guess using that reaoning, the US or Canada could lose a bit here & there, I think I want to start a sovereign Mexican homeland in Aztlan, right about where Utah & Colorado meet, do you think I have any rights there?

Israel would be too small and vulnerable to exist for long without the Golan.
that is an unknown

Another point they forgot to make is that Israel is a soverein nation, and as such it does not take orders from other nations, including the United States. I guess since the US is not a sovereign nation, we have no rights, is that right?


Israel told the US to get it's ship out of those waters, as that man said. US communications sucked, as he said. The message was not confirmed by washington, and the ship was left to die, as he said. so Internation Waters isn't International enough?


All of these points have been the main part of my arguement, and you have just proven them for me, thank you.
are you sure?

=Randolfo] 2nd time you have said that, that has no baering, in that case Singapore should be the fearest dragon, a Chinese, Malay. Hindu enclave surrounded by Malaysia

Come back to me on that after you do some research on military defensive strategy.

I guess using that reasoning, the US or Canada could lose a bit here & there, I think I want to start a sovereign Mexican homeland in Aztlan, right about where Utah & Colorado meet, do you think I have any rights there?

Are they at war? Does either country have wishes to drive the other "into the sea"? Is one of the countries as long as the range of artillery guns?

that is an unknown

Oh, that explains this: http://www.isayeret.com/units/land/special/alpine/article.htm

I guess since the US is not a sovereign nation, we have no rights, is that right?

Well, you don't have the right to endanger the existense of other nations, if that's what you mean. I feel your pain.

so Internation Waters isn't International enough?

Where did the Battle of The Atlantic take place? The majority of the Pacific war? Blind Man's Bluff?

are you sure?

What do you mean am I sure? Have you not read the links? Perhaps you should do some research before you comment.

Naval battles do occur in International Waters between combantant nations not against non-combantant ships.

I'm waiting for a reply...

The Israeli's illegally occupy the Golan Heights, now Israel in 1981 illegally seized that territory and has built settlements, in stark contradiction to the UN demands. Israel has I believe about over 60 broken UN SC resolutions, Iraq had around 12.

iraq has broke 17 and Israel over 100. America though has protected Israel from UN action 33 times by means of Vetto. if it wasn't for US Israel wouldn't be here today.

43% of Americans think that Israel is the biggest threat to world peace and in the European Union over 50% accordind to the EU think the same.

It is fairly obvious Israel suspected this ELINT vessel to be passing intel on to the Egyptians at the time of the 67 war . Egypt was vying to be Americas main ally in that region and America was alwauys receptive to Egypt causing mistrust with Israel . Israel is only viable as long as the affluent and influential Israeli lobby has power .

Nasor,
Thank you. I had not known that Syria was not part of the original attack on Israel. It puts the question of whether Israel has any claim to the Golan Heights in a very different perspective.

Actually what Nasor wrote was this:

Israel wasn't quite done yet; they still wanted to snatch up the Golan Heights from Syria, despite the cease-fire and the fact that Syria hadn't actually attacked Israel yet during the war. Israel began positing aircraft and ground forces for a push into Syria.

by Nasor
" the fact that Syria hadn't actually attacked Israel yet during the war. "

This was what I was refering to. How do you find it different or incompatible with my respose? If Syria had not joined in the attack on Israel why was the Golan attacked and occuppied? What may have been being planned about the Golan does not justify the attack on Liberty.
There is no justification for a prolonged attack on a NEUTRAL SHIP IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS.

iraq has broke 17 and Israel over 100. America though has protected Israel from UN action 33 times by means of Vetto. if it wasn't for US Israel wouldn't be here today.

And what could the UN possibly do to Israel? Israel has what? 500,000+ troops? 500,000 of the best fighting infantry the world has ever known, with the best infantry rifles on the market today. Only the US, Russia, or China could possibly take on Israel, and even then they would suffer incredible losses. Someone must prove to me this rumor that US is the only reason Israel exists.

iraq has broke 17 and Israel over 100. America though has protected Israel from UN action 33 times by means of Vetto. if it wasn't for US Israel wouldn't be here today.
YOU'RE RIGHT, NOW WHAT?

43% of Americans think that Israel is the biggest threat to world peace
WHERE DID YOU GET THESE FIGURE? SOUNDS MORE LIKE 43% OF AMERICANS FIND THE US IS A THREAT TO WORLD PEACE


and in the European Union over 50% accordind to the EU think the same.
TRUE, SO? I DON'T THINK THAT WHAT THE EUROPEANS THINK HAS MUCH VALIDITY HERE, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THAT MAKES A DIFF? HMMM?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1086230742987

a new development in the USS Liberty case
a transcript of the radio transmissions of the IAF during the attack and some excerpts from an interview with one of the 4 pilots who was doing the shooting

check it out

people, this is a big development
doesn't anyone have anything to say?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1086230742987
check it out
gotta be a member, let me think, if I want more stuff coming from some biz URL?

"doesn't anyone have anything to say? "
Ok: Kiss my ass, stupid Jew, you shot up my ship and killed my shipmates.

And what could the UN possibly do to Israel? Israel has what? 500,000+ troops? 500,000 of the best fighting infantry the world has ever known, with the best infantry rifles on the market today.
chutzpah, braggart, pride; it will be your downfall

Only the US, Russia, or China could possibly take on Israel, and even then they would suffer incredible losses. Someone must prove to me this rumor that US is the only reason Israel exists.
Israel has a modern AF, Army, but there's only so much cover to hide under (you think you can find jagged valleys, mountain ranges to hide?). you picking a fight?

you're like a dumb little brother, boasting & bragging, but when the big boys take you on, there comes all your older brothers (US money, US arms, US supplies, US intelligence, US ships) to back you up, hide little girl, sissy braggart, stand tall behind your mommy's apronstrings, go ahead & start a fight you're just lucky the US had bigger fish to fry during the 'cold war', or you'd be toast for firing on the Liberty. keep it up, I'll think you are a little touched in the head too

gotta be a member, let me think, if I want more stuff coming from some biz URL?

it's free registration

"doesn't anyone have anything to say? "
Ok: Kiss my ass, stupid Jew, you shot up my ship and killed my shipmates.

didn't it feel good to say "stupid Jew"? just admit it.
by the way, it's ironic what it takes to get some patriotism out of some ppl
and they weren't your shipmates, hype. do not flatter yourself

here are some excerpts from the article

For years their identities were classified. Last October, Brig.-Gen. (ret.) Yiftach Spector agreed to be identified and gave an exclusive interview on the attack to this reporter. Here are some of his comments.

"There was a mistake. Mistakes happen. As far as I know, the mistake was of the USS Liberty being there in the first place," said Spector, who at the time was deputy squadron commander of the 101st and used the code name "Kursa" during the attack.

"I did not fire on the Liberty as a human target. I was sent to attack a sailing vessel. This ship was on an escape route from the El Arish area which at that same moment had heavy smoke rising from it," said Spector.

He had been on an air-to-air mission and was not loaded with bombs.

"I was told on the radio that it was an Egyptian ship off the Gaza coast. Hit it. The luck of the ship was that I was armed only with light ammunition (30mm) against aircraft. If I had had a bomb it would be sitting on the bottom today like the Titanic. I promise you," Spector said.

"Every order is given by commanders and the last one to receive it has to decide whether he will pull the trigger or not. In this instance I was the fighter. I checked what I had to check (i.e. that it was a military ship and not one of ours) and pulled the trigger," Spector said.

"The crew should be thankful for their luck (that I was on an air-to-air mission and did not have any bombs) I'm sorry for poor Capt. (William Loren) McGonagle whose leg was wounded and the other guys who were killed and wounded."

"I'm sorry for the mistake. In war mistakes happen," Spector said. "But it wasn't my mistake."

He added he remained baffled that the conspiracy theories live on that Israel deliberately attacked the US intelligence ship. He suggested it might be due to anti-Semitism, or anti-Israeli sentiments. He has never in the past 37 years ever met with any of the Liberty survivors, but had no qualms about doing so now.

"These people never, ever spoke to me. Perhaps they are anti-Semites? Or these guys feel hurt and are looking for guilty parties, maybe to get compensation, or money? I am not afraid to meet them. Anyone who wants to meet with me is welcome. I don't have any claims against them. I don't want any compensation from them or anything. If they want they can look me up. And they best not deal with lies and deception since it won't help. It's best they tell the truth."

"They must understand that a mistake was made here," Spector said. "The fool is one who wanders about in the dark in dangerous places, so they should not come with any complaints."


i read on some anti-Israel sites that there were a pilot or 2 who flew that mission that came out and "confessed" (none of the sites mentioned any names though for some reason :rolleyes: )

well here you go - straight from the horse's mouth - no body has ever contacted him


At least ten official US and three Israeli investigations concluded it was the result of a tragic mistake made in the heat of battle. But for some in the world it was inconceivable that the Israeli intelligence which orchestrated the enormous victory of the Six Days' War could have made such a gross mistake. There must be another explanation.

yes, there must be! the Jews don't make mistakes...

read the whole article.... i really recommend it

"doesn't anyone have anything to say? "
Ok: Kiss my ass, stupid Jew, you shot up my ship and killed my shipmates.

The hood has been unvailed, and the little racist head has showed itself at last. Welcome to this forum Hypewader.

He added he remained baffled that the conspiracy theories live on that Israel deliberately attacked the US intelligence ship. He suggested it might be due to anti-Semitism, or anti-Israeli sentiments.

[quote]"These people never, ever spoke to me. Perhaps they are anti-Semites?

Yes, question Israeli actions and it must be anti-Semitism, :rolleyes: or...

Or these guys feel hurt and are looking for guilty parties, maybe to get compensation, or money?

...simply greed. :bugeye: It couldn't possibly be because the crew might honestly feel somebody screwed them.

I don't have any claims against them. I don't want any compensation from them or anything. If they want they can look me up. And they best not deal with lies and deception since it won't help. It's best they tell the truth."

And now he starts threatening the crew? Are you kidding me?

"They must understand that a mistake was made here," Spector said. "The fool is one who wanders about in the dark in dangerous places, so they should not come with any complaints."

Really? What about the 'fool' that 'wanders about' in broad daylight in international waters. I guess you never know what 'friendly' nations might do.

Good article. :bugeye:

The hood has been unvailed, and the little racist head has showed itself at last. Welcome to this forum Hypewader.

the hood has never been there in the first place

Yes, question Israeli actions and it must be anti-Semitism
you're taking his comment out of context stripping it down to a convenient form for you. weak.

It couldn't possibly be because the crew might honestly feel somebody screwed them
it could. their command that sent them wandering in the dark into a dangerous place without notifying the Israeli army. but it's easier to bash Israel, right?

And now he starts threatening the crew? Are you kidding me?
threatening? where'd you get that from? paranoia is a mother-f.

in broad daylight in international waters
more like off the Gaza coast, on an escape route from the El Arish area

"international waters"... lol. you make it sound like they were somewhere far in the Atlantic ocean 500 miles from nowhere

Yes, question Israeli actions and it must be anti-Semitism
you're taking his comment out of context stripping it down to a convenient form for you. weak.

Out of context?

He suggested it might be due to anti-Semitism, or anti-Israeli sentiments.
"Perhaps they are anti-Semites?

How else do you take those comments? All I know is that you can't criticize Israel, no matter at what level, without being labeled an anti-Semite. It's a helluva weapon. Howard Dean during his campaigning makes a statement to the effect of he would like to see a better balance in US relations between Israel and Palestine and there's Joe Lieberman saying how sad it was that Howard had those anti-Semetic feelings. Criticize Israel and run the risk of being labeled anti-Semetic.

It couldn't possibly be because the crew might honestly feel somebody screwed them
it could. their command that sent them wandering in the dark into a dangerous place without notifying the Israeli army. but it's easier to bash Israel, right?

I don't know or care about the Israeli army, since it wasn't army jets and gunboats that shot up the Liberty, but it was broad daylight, and Israel and the US had already been in contact with each other concerning the Liberty, and Israeli planes had already buzzed the Liberty earlier, as described by crew members. Assuming they're not just making up anti-Semetic lies, of course.

And now he starts threatening the crew? Are you kidding me?
threatening? where'd you get that from? paranoia is a mother-f.

"If they want they can look me up. And they best not deal with lies and deception since it won't help. It's best they tell the truth."

That's a threat. I didn't say it was a physical threat, but a subtle threat, nonetheless.

in broad daylight in international waters
more like off the Gaza coast, on an escape route from the El Arish area

"international waters"... lol. you make it sound like they were somewhere far in the Atlantic ocean 500 miles from nowhere

No, I don't make it 'sound' like anything other than what it was. International waters is international waters, whether you're 500 miles out or 12 miles out.

I will not ever believe that Israel would have attacked this ship on purpose if they had known it was a US ship.

Maybe this was what happened: The USSR intelligence somehow tricked Israel into believing that the ship was an Egyptian ship (by breaking Israel morse code or whatever other means) and gave false order to attack. This is only a theory but I think it is more believable than Israel deliberately attacked knowing that it was a US ship.

"the little racist head has showed itself at last"
Sorry. ( I said "Stupid Jew") I'm just a stupid Scot.

Maybe this was what happened: The USSR intelligence somehow tricked Israel into believing that the ship was an Egyptian ship (by breaking Israel morse code or whatever other means) and gave false order to attack. This is only a theory but I think it is more believable than Israel deliberately attacked knowing that it was a US ship.
So after six pages of posts, multiple links to various sources and eyewitness testimony this the very best you can do?

Sheesh your stupid. :rolleyes:
Dee Cee

So after six pages of posts, multiple links to various sources and eyewitness testimony this the very best you can do?

Sheesh your stupid. :rolleyes:
Dee Cee
I just want to throw something out that can still be a possibility. Since you are so smart, use your intelligence and write a book about what exactly happened and tell your readers that what your intelligent mind comes up with is the absolute truth and anyone not believe in you is to be considered like me, stupid. :bugeye:

I just want to throw something out that can still be a possibility.

Ok fine then throw some facts why don't ya! That should fun, stop talking as if your imagination has any relevance.

The facts remain that Israel conducted a sustained attack including strafing lifeboats (a no-no under Geneva Conventions) on the USS LIBERTY a neutral ship in International Waters.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that Sharon was himself almost certainly involved directly in the Liberty incident. If a decision was made by an Israeli commander to attack the USS Liberty, he is the one who would have made it.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that Sharon was himself almost certainly involved directly in the Liberty incident. If a decision was made by an Israeli commander to attack the USS Liberty, he is the one who would have made it.

Why, pray?

Why am I surprised? Well, I thought it was common knowledge, but perhaps it's not.

If I'm not mistaken (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong), Sharon was running the Southern Command at the time. It's an interesting point, given the accusations flying around about this incident, and the fact that he's generally credited with starting the current intefada with that mosque-visiting incident a few years ago. It certainly makes him look hawkish.

Also ironic that he's now in the position of trying to sell peace to his fellow countrymen, and not having a lot of success.

I just want to throw something out that can still be a possibility.

Ok fine then throw some facts why don't ya! That should fun, stop talking as if your imagination has any relevance.
I would not have called it just a theory if there was some facts. I did not even believe that my theory was really what happened but I was only saying that what if this was what happened...?

what if this was what happened...?

What if Jesus had a brain tumor is that why he believed he was God? Stupid theories and a grandiose waste of time, comprende? Let's leave our imaginations at home.

Too late. It is already out and another one about Jesus with a brain tumor just come up. :p

I already won this argument months ago, and I don't care to repeat myself again. Look back and read the thread from start to finish. If you care to debate it then, do so without rehashing old news for the 64th time.

I already won this argument months ago, and I don't care to repeat myself again. Look back and read the thread from start to finish. If you care to debate it then, do so without rehashing old news for the 64th time.
you won nothing, except the "blind nationalist" award, the "super jingoist" metal & the "most hard-head, without a hard-hat" award.
you must be proud!

:D :p ;)

"On June 8, 1967, Israel attacked our proud naval ship -- the USS Liberty -- killing 34 American servicemen and wounding 172. Those men were then betrayed and left to die by our own government."

"Israeli reconnaissance aircraft closely studied the Liberty during an eight-hour period prior to the attack, one flying within 200 feet of the ship. Weather reports confirm the day was clear with unlimited visibility. The Liberty was a clearly marked American ship in international waters, flying an American flag and carrying large U.S. Navy hull letters and numbers on its bow."

I believe the motive was the clear and present danger of our intelligence surveillance disclosing upon what Israel did with those thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of war prisoners, of which the USS LIBERTY either directly or indirectly assisted in the tactical support of gathering them up on behalf of Israel.

The rest is history, or of at least the cloak and dagger lies as pertaining to the history as the "mainstream status quo" intended to skew the truth into the nearest space toilet.

If need be, I'll share a specific page or two that'll focus upon what that sort of fiasco has done to the American way of life, up to and including 9/11, and of what our other cold-war impacts have to offer those of us remaing, that actually isn't much better off than the USS LIBERTY mess.

Remember folks, that this is just another government "know-thy-enemy" operated ruse/sting forum, a virtual dog-wagging cesspool of their borg eliminations, thus they'll always try for that down-home cesspool comfort zone, just like they did for one of my topics that had been catching too much political flack from their king and queen borgs.

This following topic isn't nearly as cloak and dagger worthy as the USS LIBERTY fiasco, though we did try and failed 7 times at taking Cuba.

"Barcardi buys governments, even the American government" http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=38370

Lo and behold, there's lots more (a bit further reaching) to share within my UPDATE page.
Regards, Brad Guth (BBCI h2g2 U206251) http://guthvenus.tripod.com/update-242.htm

you won nothing, except the "blind nationalist" award, the "super jingoist" metal & the "most hard-head, without a hard-hat" award.
you must be proud!

:D :p ;)

Ad hominem yet again, and this time you accuse me of being a JINGO!? My god, has there ever been a better example on this forum of the pot calling the kettle black? I appologize for making the assumption that I won the arguement here, it just occured to me when I was thinking about how you seemed to run out of claims after I refuted the ones you put out. If you have something new to add, please do, otherwise get out.

The American public is wiser tha you think. Israel will survive.

I agree that "Israel will survive" but not that part about the American public being wiser than you think.

The American public is so poorly educated (myself included), and snookered to boot, that they'll not realize what hit them until it's too damn late. For example 9/11, and I'll gladly share a dozen other examples.

Notice how the 9/11 commission offered not one paragraph, not even a phrase nor a word as to our provoking the living hell out of others unable to play our perpetrated cold-war games with sufficient gusto.

World energy domination is a nasty business, getting nastier by the day, and all we do is blame others and circumvent the truth and nothing but the truth, regardless of the consequences and without remorse.

Take notice how Osama bin Laden wasn't attacking some other country, just America and of American interest. And why is that?

I will not ever believe that Israel would have attacked this ship on purpose if they had known it was a US ship.

Maybe this was what happened: The USSR intelligence somehow tricked Israel into believing that the ship was an Egyptian ship (by breaking Israel morse code or whatever other means) and gave false order to attack. This is only a theory but I think it is more believable than Israel deliberately attacked knowing that it was a US ship.

You're way underestimating those nice Israeli folks, and of the cloak and dagger aspects being orchestrated between the US and Israel on behalf of winning their war, whereas only Israel had the motive, the means, as well as the opportunity to cut down the USS LIBERTY.

Keeping in mind that, in war there are NO rules, except for the ultimate one about your NOT getting caught, and thus-far the Israeli side of this equation hasn't been caught.

Perhaps we should ask Dr. Death (Henry Kissinger) as to his side of this story.

Here's another no-no tpoic that's being bashed to death, instead of being honestly reviewed. This following topic isn't nearly as cloak and dagger worthy as the USS LIBERTY fiasco, though it seems we did try and failed 7 times at taking Cuba.

"Barcardi buys governments, even the American government" http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=38370

It just goes to show, that nothing is too unimportant to skew into the nearest space toilet.

Lo and behold, there's lots more (a bit further reaching) to share within my UPDATE page.
Regards, Brad Guth (BBCI h2g2 U206251) http://guthvenus.tripod.com/update-242.htm

So the U.S. military was callous with the lives of the men who serve in it?

So Israel fucked with the only reason it still exists?

Yeah, and Clinton's a fiend for pussy, Dubya's a fiend for Jesus, and Cheney looks like the Big Lebowski.

It's not that complicated.

They screwed up a little by exterminating their prisoners, obviously we were too damn close for comfort, and as for recording those Jewish errors in judgment. Then everything went seriously to hell in that hand-basket.

From that point on, it was simply lie your butt off or else.

It was not absolutely clear who would win the 1967 war and what the Russians would do for their allies that were being attacked. During the nevada nuclear tests we used our soldiers as guinea pigs. The Gulf of Tonkin resolution was based on a fraud. Bush lied about WMD. Lying to the American people and sacrificing the lives of soldiers have always been normal behavior for the people who advise our presidents.

There is no way that Israel would have deliberately attacked an American ship without permission. There is no way that Israel's behavior was a case of mistaking the Liberty for the Egyptian ship they claimed to have believed it was.

The only explanation that makes any sense is that Egypt would be blamed for the sinking of the Liberty if the war did not go well for Israel. The sinking of the Liberty would give America justification for entering the war against Egypt. The use of this justification was not necessary because the war went well for Israel. Israel and America prearranged the attack on the Liberty. Tough luck for the navy personnel who were sacrificed for the national interest.

Please forgive me if it sounds like I'm directly speaking to someone on the topic, I copied this off a site, where I posted all this. I think the name is "yak" or someome... so... don't heed that.
The US personel actually said the Israelis knew it was a US ship, the Israeli's that turned back and did not attack the ship were arrested, even if it was a mistake, afterwards they knew it was American. Shouldn't they have been released?. Israel and America actually tried to hide the truth.

The USS Liberty, with 294 men aboard, arrived near the Gaza Strip in the Eastern Mediterranean at 9:00 on the morning of June 8, 1967. This was the fourth day of the Arab-Israeli war.

“ If we had any fears for our safety, however, these quickly vanished. Much of this coast area had been captured by Israel only hours before our arrival. Israel was our friend. Israeli aircraft had circled us throughout the night, and now, with daylight, they came closer and we could see the Star of David markings. Often they came so close that we could see the pilots in their cockpits and exchanged friendly waves.

Yet, taking no chances, I ordered the quartermaster to haul up a new flag, with bright and clear colors, and instructed signalmen and lookouts to assure that the flag never wrapped around the lines or mast making it difficult to see even for a few seconds.

Just before 2:00, radar operators on the ship's bridge detected more approaching high speed aircraft, flying low, coming from the direction of Tel Aviv. These were more of the same aircraft that had been visiting us all day. At the same time our men detected three small surface craft, later determined to be Israeli torpedo boats, just as they came across the visible horizon 16 miles away. ”

Suddenly at 1400hrs, waves of low-flying Israeli Mystere and Mirage-III fighter-bombers repeatedly attacked the American vessel with rockets, napalm, and cannon. The air attacks lasted 20 minutes, concentrating on the ship's electronic antennas and dishes.

At 1424hrs, three Israeli torpedo boats attacked, raking the burning Liberty with 20mm and 40mm shells. At 1431hrs an Israeli torpedo hit the Liberty mid-ship, precisely where the signals intelligence systems were located.

The torpedo boats came within 50feet of the ship, couldn't see the American flag on the mast, couldn't see the words "USS LIBERTY" on the stern, couldn't see "GTR-5" in 6 1/2 foot letters on the bow. The boats shot at American sailors on the deck of the Liberty as the sailors tried to help one another. At 1515, the crew were ordered to abandon ship. The Israeli warships closed and poured machine gun fire into the crowded life rafts, sinking two.

The Israeli attack was broken off almost immediately when they got word that the USS Saratoga had launched
aircraft to come to the aid of Liberty. The aircraft were mysteriously called-off on orders from the White House.

The Israeli aircraft, which should have been looking for a ship with large offensive armaments with sufficient range to bombard the shore 15miles away and traveling at high speed, instead found a converted cargo ship, with no offensive armament, and moving at approximately five knots in international waters.

However the Israelis claim that they wrongly identified the USS Liberty as the Egyptian vessel "El Quseir," which is a horse carrier one-fourth the size of the Liberty with an entirely different appearance.

All crew members and many Western observers allege that the attack was made deliberately, and reject all these Israeli reports as incomplete.

Various theories are presented at times as to why they claim that Israel carried out this action; one theory was that Israel was trying to get the U.S. involved in the conflict on Israel's side, by convincing the U.S. that Egypt was the aggressor.

Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.

First Hand account from one of the survivors

"Often they came so close that we could see the pilots in their cockpits and exchanged friendly waves.

Yet, taking no chances, I ordered the quartermaster to haul up a new flag, with bright and clear colors, and instructed signalmen and lookouts to assure that the flag never wrapped around the lines or mast making it difficult to see even for a few seconds."

So they could see the American flag perfectly, the pilots even knew that it was American, plus it was in international waters.

All crew members and many Western observers allege that the attack was made deliberately, and reject all these Israeli reports as incomplete.

You're saying that you trust the Israeli governments story over what YOUR OWN American sailors say?

Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.

Even their own pilots claim that it was deliberate.

http://www.desert-voice.net/israeli_attrocities.htm
Is just a small account at that site. With some other stuff.
Even after they attack one of YOUR ships and deny it, you still love them, and are 100% for their evil acts against the Palestinians?. What are you?, because a person like that, can not be human.

And here is some more I just found.
The Israeli jets had been circling the ship repeatedly for a long time. I think they would have realised it was American, after all, it was clearly marked...

"Often they came so close that we could see the pilots in their cockpits and exchanged friendly waves.

Yet, taking no chances, I ordered the quartermaster to haul up a new flag, with bright and clear colors, and instructed signalmen and lookouts to assure that the flag never wrapped around the lines or mast making it difficult to see even for a few seconds."

So they could see the American flag perfectly, the pilots even knew that it was American, plus it was in international waters.

All crew members and many Western observers allege that the attack was made deliberately, and reject all these Israeli reports as incomplete.

You're saying that you trust the Israeli governments story over what YOUR OWN American sailors say?

Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.

Even their own pilots claim that it was deliberate.

However the Israelis claim that they wrongly identified the USS Liberty as the Egyptian vessel "El Quseir," which is a horse carrier one-fourth the size of the Liberty with an entirely different appearance.



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And you still didn't told me what was military interest to attack a friendly ship?
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Ignoring the incredibly bad childlike grammar...Various theories are presented at times as to why they claim that Israel carried out this action; one theory was that Israel was trying to get the U.S. involved in the conflict on Israel's side, by convincing the U.S. that Egypt was the aggressor.

Thats one theory, you can probably find many more on the net, read up on it and try looking at the story from a perspective other than the obviously biased Israeli version.


"Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighbouring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left."
-- Joseph Weitz, the head of the Zionist Agencys Colonization Department

"I don't mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. What you don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it."
-- Ariel Sharon, speaking to Amos Oz, Dec. 17, 1982


http://www.ussliberty.org/g/lg/lg0076.jpg
http://www.ussliberty.org/g/lg/lg0031.jpg





http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html
http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/

It does not matter what the nationality of the ship was; the strafing of lifeboats is unforgivable.

It does not matter what the nationality of the ship was; the strafing of lifeboats is unforgivable.


Exactly, even if it was their enemy, it was... as you said, unforgivable.

well some egyptian historians claim that the uss liberty had photographed the isralies red handed egyptian POWs
and other violations of geneava code
but i have nothing that can be called sustantial proof