The USA government: Was not elected by the majority of its citizens. Ignores the will of its people. Ignores the will of the international community including the UN. Is threatening the use of nuclear weapons, being the only nation ever to nuke civilian cities. It's clearly a "rogue state". How could they not be considered such?
Australia: PM says the will of the people doesnt matter, is agressive, lies to the people, has sent troops to an illegal war
Although I didn't vote for him, Bush still won the electoral vote. But either way, how does that make the US a 'rogue state'? At the moment polls suggest the administration does. The UN <i>is</i> the international community. The UN hasn't ruled out war yet, and at this point the US has restrained itself. You can bring that one up again later if the US does ignore the will of the UN. Used them over a half century ago and has never used them in war since. If it was a 'rogue' state it could have been lobbing them like snowballs through Korea, Vietnam and Desert Storm. Hasn't threatened to use them now; has only refused to rule the use of them out, as is US policy. In Adam's mind this is likely so.
What the hell is a rogue state anyway? The US has done a hell of a lot more good than bad in the world, and I don't really understand where all of this anti-americanism comes from. If anything, Iraq is the rogue state(duh). After all, they used biological weapons, which are prohibited by the UN. We used nuclear weapons in World War II, during a fight for the world. I guess we should've just let Australia take on Japan, eh? Whatever, I'm getting of the subject... but what is the point of all this? Do you really not want us to depose Saddam Hussein? Or not stamp out terrorism? I don't remember Australia losing 3000 people and the World Trade Center to Muslim terrorists.
POOR US that seems to be ur first cry if you cant take the crisium then curl up in a corner HELL our pollys take more than that in EVERY election campain 3000 people died so that gives u a mandate to mess up the world ??? NO, international LAW is there for a reason it aplyes to EVERYONE, not to those OTHERS the ICC was designed as a method of dealing with war crimes so insted of welcoming it to stamp out ALL war crimes you say it should aply to everyone BUT the US you pull out of the anti-bio weapons treaty, the very laws you are now sprouting that iraq breached HOW long ago? same with the balistic missile treaty who has the biggest stock pile of nukes and is saying they are happy to USE them? the poor hard done by US who think they own the world Moderator edit
Rogue States The USA government is always referring to Iraq as a rogue nation. What is a rogue nation? Would anyone care to define it? And please keep in mind that if your criteria for definition also apply to the USA, then you are claiming the USA is also a rogue nation.
appropriate background for the cameras UNITED NATIONS OFFICIALS COVER THE ANTI-WAR TABLEAU 'GUERNICA' SO OFFICIALS CAN SPEAK OF WAR NEW YORK CITY A gift of Nelson Rockefeller's estate, a tapestry of Pablo Picasso's "Guernica" has hung outside the U.N. Security Council since 1985. In recent days, the tapestry has been covered with drapes. The tapestry based upon Picasso's 1937 painting depicts the terrorized and dying civilians at Guernica, a small Basque village in northern Spain that was being used for target practice by the German air force under the authorization of Generalissimo Francisco Franco's facist regime. The drapes were installed in the last week of January and were used to cover the tapestry during the days the Security Council discussed Iraq. The press secretary for the U.N. called the drapes a more "appropriate background for the cameras." (Editor's NotePlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! If the United States bombs Baghdad, many more than the 1,600 civilians killed or wounded in the Basque village will be killed. Baghdad is a city of more than 3 million people. Sources: www.artdaily.com, Feb. 3, 2003; The Washington Times, Feb. 3, 2003 Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Now Balder, I agree with a majority of the things that your saying. Not the above quote though. 500 British people died in that attack. Im sure that a lot of the people in those buildings were not US citizens, after all somebody's gotta be the janitor...
Before I start, could someone define a "rogue state?" The USA government was never designed so that the popular vote would win. Our founding fathers knew that the average citizen isn't educated enough to elect the president by his/herself, so the Electoral College was invented. This isn't the first time it has happened. Abraham Lincoln didn't win the popular vote the first time around. Yeah, you got us there. [QUOTE Ignores the will of the international community including the UN.[/QUOTE] Not to the full extent. We still haven't gone to war with Iraq yet (though many preparations have been made). Or we could've sent our troops in and Japan would've lost at least 1,000,000 people (but thats for a different debate...maybe theres already a thread about it).
you dont understand where all this anti americanism comes from? ummmm.. correction... anti american governmentism is more accurate... Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! if you cant understand that simple concept, just put your finger on a globe with closed eyes and see which country ur finger is resting on.. and go look up US and that country relations.. u'll find out.. its a tiring exercise cuz american crap never ends... another interestin exercise is to go to this website called www.google.com and look up any information you want... it has thousands of websites that will show you all the BAD vs da GOOD the US has done... come back after ur a lil more informed...
Re: Rogue States April 3, 1991 Gulf War ends. U.N. Security Council Resolution 687 specifies the cease-fire conditions. The Resolution mandates that Iraq respect the sovereignty of Kuwait and declare and destroy, remove, or render harmless all ballistic missile systems with a range of more than 150 kilometres. April 6, 1991 Iraq accepts the U.N. resolution and allows weapons monitoring by the U.N.. April 10, 1991 Following an Iraqi army offensive against Kurds in northern Iraq which results in 2 million Kurdish refugees, a U.N. 'safe haven' is established in northern Iraq for their protection. June 23-28, 1991 Iraq violates cease-fire agreements and U.N. Security Council Resolution 687. For the first time, Iraqi troops fire shots to prevent UNSCOM/IAEA inspectors from intercepting Iraqi vehicles carrying nuclear-related equipment. Equipment is later found and destroyed under cease-fire rules. July 18-20, 1991 An Iraqi ballistic missile concealment is revealed. UNSCOM discovers and destroys undeclared decoy missiles and launch support equipment. July 30, 1991 U.N. weapons inspectors report to the United Nation Security Council that Iraq has attempted to conceal aspects of its nuclear weapons program by destroying or burying essential equipment. The inspectors also reported identifying four times as many chemical weapons as Iraq had reported to be in its possession. Aug. 2-8, 1991 UNSCOM uncovers a major Iraqi biological weapons program, including seed stocks of three biological warfare agents and threepotential warfare strains. Sept. 6-13, 1991 Iraq blocks UNSCOM's use of helicopters to conduct inspections. July 5-22, 1992 Iraq refuses to allow a U.N. inspection team to enter a building in Baghdad believed to contain documents related to Iraq's nuclear program. Inspectors withdraw without gaining access. April 6-7, 1995 A seminar of international biological weapons experts convened by UNSCOM concludes that Iraq has an undeclared full-scale biological weapons program. May 1-3, 1995 A seminar of international chemical weapons experts convened by UNSCOM concludes that Iraq has not adequately disclosed its past chemical weapons programs. Aug. 8, 1995 Jordan grants asylum to two sons-in-law of Saddam Hussein - Lt. Gen. Hussein Kamel Hassan al-Majid, who had supervised Iraq's weapons of mass destruction development programs since 1987, and his brother, Lt. Col. Saddam Kamel Hassan al-Majid, who formerly headed the presidential lsecurity forces. The two men were married to the two eldest daughters of Saddam Hussein. November, 1995 Jordan intercepts a large shipment of high-grade missile components headed for Iraq. UNSCOM conducts an investigation which confirms that Iraqi authorities and missile facilities have been involved in the acquisition of sophisticated guidance and control components for proscribed missiles. Feb. 20, 1996 Hussein and Saddam Kamel, Saddam's two sons-in-law who requested asylum in Jordan in August 1995, return to Baghdad after receiving Iraqi government "pardons." Feb. 23, 1996 Hussein and Saddam Kamel are killed in Baghdad, allegedly at the hands of family members. Their bodies are dragged through the streets of Baghdad as a warning to those who would defy Saddam. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Jan 13-22, 1998 Iraq withdraws co-operation with U.N. inspectors, claiming too many members are American and British and denies U.N. inspectors access to presidential sites. Jan 14, 1998 In a show of support for Richard Butler, chairman of the United Nations Special Commission on Iraq, the U.N. Security Council unanimously approves a statement deploring Iraq's recent actions to impede inspections by U.N. weapons monitors. June 24, 1998 UNSCOM's Richard Butler tells Security Council that U.S. Army tests leave "no doubt" that Iraq placed VX nerve gas in missile warheads. Missile material is sent for further tests to France and Switzerland. This is a small snipet of the crap Iraq has been pulling with the UN and it's people. http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/s695351.htm People call Iraq a rogue nation, because of their actions over the last decade.
Re: Re: Rogue States STATIC76, you better do some homework!! On 1 December 2000, the UN passed six resolutions against the nation of Israel. One of these evil resolutions stated that "Israeli control over Jerusalem is illegal and therefore has no validity" and demanded that Israel withdraw from the Golan Heights. What is even more evil is that 145 nations supported the resolution; only Israel was against it! Even the United States abstained 1955-1992: * Resolution 106: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid". * Resolution 111: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people". * Resolution 127: " . . . 'recommends' Israel suspends it's 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem". * Resolution 162: " . . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions". * Resolution 171: " . . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria". * Resolution 228: " . . . 'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control". * Resolution 237: " . . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees". * Resolution 248: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan". * Resolution 250: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem". * Resolution 251: " . . . 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250". * Resolution 252: " . . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital". * Resolution 256: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation". * Resolution 259: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation". * Resolution 262: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport". * Resolution 265: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan". * Resolution 267: " . . . 'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem". *Resolution 270: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon". * Resolution 271: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem". * Resolution 279: " . . . 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon". * Resolution 280: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon". * Resolution 285: " . . . 'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon". * Resolution 298: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem". * Resolution 313: " . . . 'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon". * Resolution 316: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon". * Resolution 317: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon". * Resolution 332: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon". * Resolution 337: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty". * Resolution 347: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon". * Resolution 425: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon". * Resolution 427: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon. * Resolution 444: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces". * Resolution 446: " . . . 'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention". * Resolution 450: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon". * Resolution 452: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories". * Resolution 465: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program". * Resolution 467: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon". * Resolution 468: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return". * Resolution 469: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians". * Resolution 471: " . . . 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention". * Resolution 476: " . . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'". * Resolution 478: " . . . 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'". * Resolution 484: " . . . 'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors". * Resolution 487: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility". * Resolution 497: " . . . 'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith". * Resolution 498: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon". * Resolution 501: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops". * Resolution 509: " . . . 'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon". * Resolution 515: " . . . 'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in". * Resolution 517: " . . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon". * Resolution 518: " . . . 'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon". * Resolution 520: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut". * Resolution 573: " . . . 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters. * Resolution 587: " . . . 'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw". * Resolution 592: " . . . 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops". * Resolution 605: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians. * Resolution 607: " . . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention. * Resolution 608: " . . . 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians". * Resolution 636: " . . . 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians. * Resolution 641: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians. * Resolution 672: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount. * Resolution 673: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations. * Resolution 681: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians. * Resolution 694: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return. * Resolution 726: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians. * Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for there immediate return. On UN resolutions with great mayority and vetoed by USA Check: http://www.mideastfacts.com/resolutions.html
Good Show, Microzoft! Great return! OK Static- whadaya got now? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! This is becoming a great spectator sport (sorry if the bleachers are a little noisy)
Re: Re: Re: Rogue States There is one major problem with your argument. I'm as NO fan of the Israel government and their tactics. I think Ariel Sharon and Yasar Arafat are both murderers who deserve no respect in the international community. This topic is about whether the USA is a rogue nation, not Israel....Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Also, you didn't respond to the LONG list examples I gave on Iraq.:m:
Static: "This topic is about whether the USA is a rogue nation, not Israel.... (I'll kibbitz some more, as we say in Riyadh) Ok, so you both used lateral examples for comparison. No Points then. I happened to think Microzoft had a great return, but... NET SERVE! SERVICE - MICROZOFT!
Japan was ready to surrender when we dropped the two atomic bombs on it. There would have been no need for invasion regardless. The bombs were dropped to end the war before the Russians could expand further.
Static, you're right. Reading more carefully above, I think we're all acknowledging 3 rogue states among many, and have nothing to argue about. But before we lose all hope (of a vigorous verbal tennis match) who's the biggest rogue of all? And jps: Yes!
Definition of "Rogue State" from the Horse's Mouth This definition of "Rogue State" is from The National Security Strategy of the United States of America, Chapter V: Prevent Our Enemies from Threatening Us, Our Allies, and Our Friends with Weapons of Mass Destruction Personally, I think the current US government administration qualifies under all of the criteria above, including "hate the United States and everything for which it stands" if I consider the purported/stated reasons why people hate the US--that we represent liberty and justice. I believe the American Revolution and the values espoused by the founders of American democracy are hated very much by those in residence at the White House. Here are some other resources, for further perusal of the subject. "Does US Want to be Branded as a Rogue State?" An article using the above criteria to explain, using examples, why the US can be considered a "Rogue State." Interview of Noam Chomsky for Indian media about the nature of the "Rogue State" "Economic Foundations of The 'Rogue State'"
They were NOT going to surrender. Whoa there! May I see the source of that info please? I am as ashamed as anyone that my country is the only one in history to actually deploy nuclear weapons and they dropped them on CIVILIANS. Nonetheless, facts are facts. I have seen no respectable rebuttal of this from any quarter -- U.S. hawks, U.S. doves, Japanese, outsiders -- Japan was absolutely NEVER going to surrender. Sure, they had their realists and some highly revered generals recommended surrender, but it wasn't going to happen. They were going to keep on fighting until it was hand to hand in the streets, antique samurai swords against M-1s. Their women and children would go out in the street and pound the GIs with their fists and be mowed down by machine guns before they would insult their country by surrendering to a race of people that they considered to be irredeemably inferior. There would be no peace treaty. Just a larger version of Iwo Jima with the U.S. flag planted on top of a mountain of fifty million Japanese corpses. A whole lot more American wives would have gotten those sad telegrams. And every last molecule of a country that was old and great would have been utterly destroyed because of the fatal flaw of racism, something we know a lot about ourselves. Maybe somebody smarter could have figured out a better idea, but nobody came forward with one. The only thing our government could figure out to do was to demonstrate to the Japanese that we were even worse than they thought: that we had absolutely not the slightest shred of honor. We would send pilots in at a safe altitude that virtually defied anti-aircraft fire, kill a hundred thousand civilians, go back to the base and watch a movie. THAT is what convinced the emperor that the world had changed into one in which the old codes of military honor no longer applied. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are names that will make every American hang his head in shame until the end of the universe. Right down there in the bottom of our hearts with slavery and the obliteration of Indian culture. But that shame doesn't rewrite history. The Japanese were NOT going to surrender as long as one four-year-old was left alive to carry the flag.
