An interesting link supplied by Jandt: http://www.thememoryhole.org/eagle-stamp.htm

A couple from me:
http://www.electronicorphanage.com/negri/empire.htm
http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/01/14/25486.html

Tell me. Is the USA an empire? Does it control things beyond its own borders? Does it infringe on the sovereign rights and territories or others?

Are there any valid comparisons between the USA today and Rome?

Are there any valid comparisons between the USA and NAZI Germany?

If you wish to draw such comparisons, please provide it in a clear manner, preferably with some form of evidence.

way to go.

Yes America is an empire, and always has been.

One of the best resources on the subject for those just dipping into the subject are Michael Parenti's books. He is an wonderful author and speaker, informative, with a zillion footnotes, and a very non-confrontational style. (something I have yet to learn)


The two that most fit this thread are:
'Against Empire' and 'Blackshirts and Reds', both available from City Lights Books in San Francisco


www.michaelparenti.org


I also read a book once about the comparisons between Rome and America. The way the book was written, one would read about some of the problems caused by empire, focusing on the decay of the inner cities for the cause of expansion abroad, or on the horrors of imperialism. The reader did not know which empire was being discussed until the end of the chapter, Rome or America.
The parallels were incredible and frightening.
I just can't seem to remember the title or author. I think it was called 'endgame' but I am not sure. I will post the title when I come across it.

How many threads does it take you two to say the very same thing?

Let alone to be convincing?

Well, we see Mr G is incapable of useful contribution to one side or another...

What I am after is for people to list here, in this one thread devoted precisely to this topic, some realistic comparisons and rebuttals.

Adam:

Did you actually read that article you linked to in the other thread? If you did, you obviously have a reading comphrension problem because you completely missed its point. You must have missed it because your propagandizing has not changed an iota.

What propaganda? I have asked a question. That is not a declaration. You are imagining things.

Monroe Doctrine

Two words: Hahahahaha, hahahahaha.

Pardon me. You force me to have to change my bullsh*t filter for a clean one.

Telling Europe we've cut the cord is Evil Empire Building?

Get a life.

Well, since nobody has bothered yet, I'll give it a shot...

Government

Rome, NAZI Germany, and the modern USA all possess a body of elected public representatives.

Rome, NAZI Germany, and the modern USA all possess an ultimate head of government, one person, although with different titles in each case.

Symbols

Rome, NAZI Germany, and the modern USA all use/used the famous eagle banner.

Society

Rome, NAZI Germany, and the modern USA all had Citizens and an underclass. In the USA today, we often hear Bush talking of American lives rather than just lives; not wanting to put American lives in danger; or in the case of Kyoto, American jobs. We see from many Americans, such as Brad Rules (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13828), the amazing idea that their nation is the pinnacle of contemporary civilisation, and that any who disagree are simply jealous. (Granted Brad Rules must be one of the worst examples of American culture.)

Foreign Policy

Rome, NAZI Germany, and the modern USA all invaded other nations, installed their soldiers there, and set up puppet governments. All operated from a position of technological and economic advantage.


Well, it's a start. Anyone got anything rational to add?

I'll try not to let emotion get in the way too much.
Originally posted by Adam
Government

Rome, NAZI Germany, and the modern USA all possess a body of elected public representatives.

Rome, NAZI Germany, and the modern USA all possess an ultimate head of government, one person, although with different titles in each case.
The similarities are correct but the goals of each have been different. Nazi government (or should I say Hitler) wanted to control the way its people thought. Roman government wanted to control the world. American government has something called checks and balances that prevents the government (as a whole) from doing such things (I don't think I need to provide a link to the Constitution...and yes, what the Constitution outlines is still being used today). You may believe otherwise, thus the rational part of providing proof.


Symbols

Rome, NAZI Germany, and the modern USA all use/used the famous eagle banner.
Symbols are subjective. They are not proof of "fascism" nor are they relevant. Surely you have had to write papers on what things mean to you. To most people an eagle symbolizes "soaring freely, strong." We did have the turkey as our symbol......

Society

Rome, NAZI Germany, and the modern USA all had Citizens and an underclass. In the USA today, we often hear Bush talking of American lives rather than just lives; not wanting to put American lives in danger; or in the case of Kyoto, American jobs. We see from many Americans, such as Brad Rules (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13828), the amazing idea that their nation is the pinnacle of contemporary civilisation, and that any who disagree are simply jealous. (Granted Brad Rules must be one of the worst examples of American culture.)
I was writing last week about whether or not a society could function properly without classes, if equality was possible without total reform. Having an under-class doesn't show why a country is an empire. In response to what Bush says, what politician doesn't favor the people who he is supposed to serve? And please don't judge an entire society by one person...or even the people who come to post at SciForums, we are only a tiny fraction. You can make generalizations but do not hold them in stone, because what we say doesn't reflect the feeling of the people living in our country.

Foreign Policy

Rome, NAZI Germany, and the modern USA all invaded other nations, installed their soldiers there, and set up puppet governments. All operated from a position of technological and economic advantage.


Well, it's a start. Anyone got anything rational to add?
A prosperous nation is not always a controlling one.

World powers have always demonstrated imperialism or a watered-down version of it. We would not have invaded Afghanistan if there was no reason to. The world has changed and measures to protect a countries people have too....ill get back to this later.


I see that you have thrown out controversial statements to get something going here, hope what I said helps.

Any country we invade we leave willingly in a couple of years. We lose money invading, not gain it.

We just try to get other countries to respect human rights and democratic processes.

Remember, whatever we do is determined by public judgement. Any leader who goes against majority rule is never reelected. Unlike some OTHER countries.

Every nation on the planet is an empire.

Every nation tries to control someone else, every nation has foreign influence over one another... Every nation does it! Its just that america happens to be the most powerful one.

-CounslerCoffee

Every male wants to be an Alpha, but in any group there can be only one.

Globalization sucks because the wannabes know that "one" really means just "One", and they're not it.

All you Alpha-can't-be, cry-babies out there--I hear your mommie calling you....

Adam? jandt?

"Is the USA an empire? Does it control things beyond its own borders? Does it infringe on the sovereign rights and territories or others?"

It is an empire of modern terms. That is, it controls through economic measures. If you expect, however, that at any point in time there were no 'empires' when it was possible for their to be an empire then you're wrong on all accounts. Empires exist. If the Yanks weren't biggies, you'd have someone else to spend your time complaining about.


"Are there any valid comparisons between the USA today and Rome?"

Not really.


"Are there any valid comparisons between the USA and NAZI Germany?"

In fear of making myself sound like an old Jewish woman - this is remarkably disrespectful to everyone (not just Jews) who died under Nazi Germany. The U.S. has put Nazis in power, but not for quite some time.

Originally posted by Mr. G
Every male wants to be an Alpha, but in any group there can be only one.
Globalization sucks because the wannabes know that "one" really means just "One", and they're not it.
All you Alpha-can't-be, cry-babies out there--I hear your mommie calling you....
Adam? jandt?
As I have come to expect, an entirely useless post. Thanks.

If you expect, however, that at any point in time there were no 'empires' when it was possible for their to be an empire then you're wrong on all accounts.

The first known empire was the Akkadian. They possessed no revolutionary technology or methods above what they and their neighbours had possessed for centuries. They were simply the first known group to want to do it.


"Are there any valid comparisons between the USA today and Rome?"

Not really.

Well, thanks for all the effort there...


"Are there any valid comparisons between the USA and NAZI Germany?"

In fear of making myself sound like an old Jewish woman - this is remarkably disrespectful to everyone (not just Jews) who died under Nazi Germany. The U.S. has put Nazis in power, but not for quite some time.

How is it disrepectful? I don't see it at all. Germany killed people in WW2. The USA killed people in WW2. Hell, the USA killed something like eight million natives in its early years. Again, how is it disrespectful?


Can anyone post a more thoughtful comparison of the three, or else a more thoughtful work on how they do not compare?

Originally posted by Clockwood
Any country we invade we leave willingly in a couple of years. We lose money invading, not gain it.

We just try to get other countries to respect human rights and democratic processes.

Remember, whatever we do is determined by public judgement. Any leader who goes against majority rule is never reelected. Unlike some OTHER countries.

Hmm, yes, just like with The Kingdom of Hawai'i, the Cherokee nation, Diné Bikeyah, and plenty of other places, while although allowed to have autonomous rule over certain areas have not been granted independence since their absorption into the Empire.

Also, there are places that were annexed from other empires-- New Mexico Territory (today Arizona and New Mexico, including the large chunk of land that was once and still is Diné Bikeyah, plus many other nations that should be independant)

~~~~~

Now, about rulers-- I like rulers that have metric and american measurements, that way I can easily write down a measurement either way, and quite accurately too.

No, seriously, what's up with the president? WTF do we need a president?

President, Emperor, King, whatever, all they mean is supreme leader of the State and that is not right.

In many nations, the gov't is made up of different ministries, and there are ministers as heads of each ministry, and there are associate ministers and various other helpers for each minister.

The ministers combine to form a parliament sort of thing, and there is one minister called the "prime minister", the minister of the ministries.

Yet he is just there to oversee them, not to be the supreme leader. He cannot make important decisions by himself.

Originally posted by Adam
The first known empire was the Akkadian. They possessed no revolutionary technology or methods above what they and their neighbours had possessed for centuries. They were simply the first known group to want to do it.


Well, thanks for all the effort there...


How is it disrepectful? I don't see it at all. Germany killed people in WW2. The USA killed people in WW2. Hell, the USA killed something like eight million natives in its early years. Again, how is it disrespectful?


Can anyone post a more thoughtful comparison of the three, or else a more thoughtful work on how they do not compare?

While the modern countries of North America have been disrespectufl and murdered more than their fair share of natives, 3 of the main colonizing countries (Portugal, Spain, and Great Britain) took out the vast majority of them. Russia and France actually decided to make use of the natives.

Not saying what the USA and Canada did was right, but the Europeans started and did much more damage than the USA did in terms of casualties.

Adam, comparisons between US and Nazi Germany?

Are you channeling FoxMulder?

Any country we invade we leave willingly in a couple of years. We lose money invading, not gain it.

Ahh, the cost of war. The recent events that you have this "comparison" riding on are not like the World Wars. The whole country is not making an effort towards to war, a great number of the population is against the efforts or just doesn't care...with the greater military budget other "more important" areas get less money (no tax raises, they are trying to reduce taxes in fact). In the long run, we will probably lose any economic foot-hold we have..........even if oil prices suddenly get cheaper with the "acquisition" of Iraq, it won't make a dent in what money they've spent. And don't think that some country (if not the UN) won't demand a real government in Iraq and not a "puppet" one as you suspect, other places in the world need oil/fuel too.

Can anyone post a more thoughtful comparison of the three, or else a more thoughtful work on how they do not compare?
Yea I did a few miles back....check your rear-view mirror. You might have missed it while changing into 6th gear going 200mph (or something like 330kph).

Whether or not the United States is an empire depends on how you define the word.
The United States, although it does have territories outside of the mainland does not have enough to be called an empire.
However the United States is an empire in the sense that it controls much of the world economically.
The fact is, occupying countries and installing a US ruler is much more costly than economic globalization and has much the same end result.