http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6252567.stm


US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has warned that the US will take action against countries destabilising Iraq.

Next target: the whitehouse.

What kind of "action"?

She will give them an infraction.

Yeah but the Mods will just reverse it.

Yeah but the Mods will just reverse it.

That's so true.

I wonder what people in the future (if there is any after all the messes created by the Americans) will think of us.

With Islamic militants wanting to terrorize the world back to what it was like when Muhammed was riding around "evangelizing," I'm quite sure those in the future will applaud our efforts to halt that insanity.

I wonder what people in the future (if there is any after all the messes created by the Americans) will think of us.

You honestly think human nature will different enough in the future for them to be shocked?

With Islamic militants wanting to terrorize the world back to what it was like when Muhammed was riding around "evangelizing," I'm quite sure those in the future will applaud our efforts to halt that insanity.

Get a clue you fanatic. The US is pointing a gun towards the heads of Muslim nations, we have blackmail, intimidation, deceit and all the rest of it.

‘Muhammad?’ you had to mention that huh? I've noticed how most Christian fanatics are bitter about what Muhammad achieved, you can see it in their eyes and how they speak, they can never hide that, lol.

One of the greatest threats to the World is America and her Christian fanatics, these selfish bastards would kill millions just to quicken the second coming of Christ, (in Islam there is no concept of trying to quicken about the coming of Jesus Christ) these fanatics don’t have a clue about religion and the World should be worried.

Originally Posted by IceAgeCivilizations
It is not murder to kill those who seek to kill you

God help us all.

The Doomsday Code

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15044.htm

Tony Robinson investigates the people with powerful political friends in the White House, who are trying to bring about the end of the world. Julia Bard reports.

So Ghost, do you deny that Muslim radicals seek to destroy the West, what are they teaching in the madrasas?

So Ghost, do you deny that Muslim radicals seek to destroy the West, what are they teaching in the madrasas?

'Muslim radicals', explain.

Seeking to destroy the West? the resistance in Palestine, Chechnya, Kashmir etc. is defensive, the resistance movements have their backs against the wall, don't forget, they don't even exist (they don't even have a state). Have these resistance movements got plans to conquer the West? I don't think so, even if they did it would mean nothing (they don’t have the means). Resistance movements as well as terrorists are only armed with light arms, now even these movements face opposition from the governments of Muslim nations.

Do any of these Muslim nation plan to destroy the West? Again, its all piss and wind, Muslim countries haven’t won a war against any Western nation in over 200 yrs (I think), its all been one way traffic and the difference between the two is constantly increasing. (The US spends more its military than the rest of the World put together - you know what its like)

I’ve been going to Mosque/Madrassa for what? over 10 years and have never heard any political sermons, no threats, nothing. You’re ignorance is worrying.

God help us.

I see no indication that the God of the Bible and Allah are the same.

Muslims are taught that all the world will submit to Islam, by the sword if necessary, you have to deal with that.

I see no indication that the God of the Bible and Allah are the same.

Muslims are taught that all the world will submit to Islam, by the sword if necessary, you have to deal with that.

Off-topic.

You do know that Arab Christians call God 'Allah'. You do know that I (Muslim) call on 'God' (in English). If you want to put up barriers, so be it, you know nothing about love and religion. Read some Sufi poetry and get a damn clue man, we can call God by whatever name we want, there are no barriers, language, culture etc. is irrelevant, there is one creator, one God for everyone. (you should never force that on anyone and never cut anyone off from that - in other words, don't be a fanatic)

Muslims are taught that all the world will submit to Islam, by the sword if necessary, you have to deal with that.

(Your ignorance is worrying)

so...

Originally Posted by IceAgeCivilizations
It is not murder to kill those who seek to kill you

God help us.

Allah was one of 360 pre-Islamic Arab gods, so he can't be the God of the Bible, for this reason, and many others.

So if someone was creeping up on you, to kill you, you'd just say "hi, have at it?"

Allah was one of 360 pre-Islamic Arab gods, so he can't be the God of the Bible, for this reason, and many others.

So if someone was creeping up on you, to kill you, you'd just say "hi, have at it?"

Off-topic again.

Your ignorance and arrogance is worrying. Parroting lines from evangelicals won’t work, its all piss and wind. Lets do this, I believe what I want to believe, let it be, just do one thing for me, read up on religion, you’re missing the essence of religion. True religion isn't about condemning people.

So if someone was creeping up on you, to kill you, you'd just say "hi, have at it?"

Go get a clue. Who is creeping up on you? who wants to kill you? do they have the means to kill you? Piss and wind.

Try to chill out.

So if someone was creeping up on you, to kill you, you'd just say "hi, have at it?"
That's what Jesus did.

True, but He didn't intend that Christians should never defend themselves, the Apostles had swords.

True, but He didn't intend that Christians should never defend themselves, the Apostles had swords.

So you don't believe that as a Christian you should strive to be like your savior?

My assignment is not to die for the sins of the world.

What happened to turn the other cheek? Isn't murder a sin?

Murder is a sin, defending oneself is not murder.

I think it says thou shall not kill. Kill, not murder.

The accurate translation is murder.

Then why does it say kill? Trying to reinterpret the word of God? I thought it was all supposed to be the literal truth.

Do you actually think that God would have a man, with his wife and children with him, just sit there while a stranger hacks them to death?

It's not for me to question the will of God.

Good for you.

Murder is a sin, defending oneself is not murder.

Defending with a preemptive strike?

That is a hard decision, to be made on a case by case basis.

Defending with a preemptive strike?

You post that like you think it should be an automatic 'no'. How can you not see how a preemptive strike could well be a perfect strategy?

Baron Max

You post that like you think it should be an automatic 'no'. How can you not see how a preemptive strike could well be a perfect strategy?

I know it could be the perfect strategy, but I was asking if it was 'the chritian thing to do.'

You post that like you think it should be an automatic 'no'. How can you not see how a preemptive strike could well be a perfect strategy?

Baron Max


I think we should ban Baron Max as a preemptive strike. I'm sure he will cross the line at one point.

One of the greatest threats to the World is America and her Christian fanatics, these selfish bastards would kill millions just to quicken the second coming of Christ, (in Islam there is no concept of trying to quicken about the coming of Jesus Christ) these fanatics don’t have a clue about religion and the World should be worried.

Ghost,
What about the Mahdi? Isn't he an anti-christ like figure who is supposed to impose a one world government based in Iraq following a time of troubles? Isn't there sect in Islam, that includes the president of Iran, that believes in this "last Iman" and wishes to bring about armageddon to hasten his appearance? I've also heard that this view was actually outlawed in Iran at one time as too extreem but now the country is controlled by a member! A member who hopes to soon have the nuclear weapons he needs to bring about armageddon.

Ghost,
What about the Mahdi? Isn't he an anti-christ like figure who is supposed to impose a one world government based in Iraq following a time of troubles? Isn't there sect in Islam, that includes the president of Iran, that believes in this "last Iman" and wishes to bring about armageddon to hasten his appearance? I've also heard that this view was actually outlawed in Iran at one time as too extreem but now the country is controlled by a member! A member who hopes to soon have the nuclear weapons he needs to bring about armageddon.

Ahmedinejad is an engineer, he has to however pacify the clerics, the real power in Iran.

Don't believe everything you hear.

In November, the country was startled by a video showing Mr Ahmadinejad telling a cleric that he had felt the hand of God entrancing world leaders as he delivered a speech to the UN General Assembly last September.

He's a politician above all else, he plays to the gallery.

That's kinda odd. Most of the engineers I know are sensible, sane (if a little socially awkward) ... more than scientists, even...

That's kinda odd. Most of the engineers I know are sensible, sane (if a little socially awkward) ... more than scientists, even...

Ya, and he was top of his class too. He discovered early on in his political career that getting on the religious soapbox would get him the support (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Taghi_Mesbah_Yazdi) of the Shiite clerics. (duh!)
He needs to be replaced for this very reason.

There is just too much hype about the ME and their fundamentalist streaks.

Its easier to imagine Bush as a Crusader.

Yes Sam, but what eventually happens when you ride a Tiger?, Ahmadinejad has chosen to ride the tiger to power, and now he can't get off.

Ahmedinejad is an engineer, he has to however pacify the clerics, the real power in Iran.

Don't believe everything you hear.

He's a politician above all else, he plays to the gallery.
Sure. Just like Hitler didn't really mean what he said in Mein Kaumpf. He was just appealing to anti-Jewish sentiment to get power. Once he had power, he was a great guy, except for trying to kill all the Jews and take over the world.

It's always safe to trust that when dictators vow to wipe nations off the map or pray for armageddon at the UN that they're just joking.

Sure. Just like Hitler didn't really mean what he said in Mein Kaumpf. He was just appealing to anti-Jewish sentiment to get power. Once he had power, he was a great guy, except for trying to kill all the Jews and take over the world.

It's always safe to trust that when dictators vow to wipe nations off the map or pray for armageddon at the UN that they're just joking.

Hell give the GWB admin free rein and they'll do the exact same thing.

Please provide proof of any such statement ever made by the Officials or Government of the United States making such a statement, Sam your such a bigot.

Sam's just chapped at America 'cause a cop didn't let her off a ticket.

Please provide proof of any such statement ever made by the Officials or Government of the United States making such a statement, Sam your such a bigot.

Warrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr on terrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr:D

In ummm Iraq, with ummm Sadman ummm for dubloooemmmmdeeeeeeeeeeeees!!!!!!!!!!:eek: :eek:


http://www.antiwar.com/lobe/?articleid=4513

The speech, which was studded with religious references, was dominated by a sense of certainty and even triumphalism about Washington's special mission to spread "freedom" and "liberty" – words he used more than 40 times in an 1,800-word address – throughout the world.

He even argued the country's very survival depended on exporting freedom abroad.

Bwaaahahahahahahahha

samcdkey, nothing that shows any statement by the President or Government that we wish to wipe out any race, no proof Sam, just bigoted opinion?

No just dead people wherever the US goes to spread democracy!

We went to Indias aid, and no dead people.

No you'd already killed all the Indians in the US!!

We went to Indias aid, and no dead people.

We didn't have to kill off any Indians in India .....they do it themselves at unbelievable rates! Even the Indian police are good at killing their own people, yet Sam convienently fails to see that.

But what can you do ...a person who hates the USA, Sam is a driven woman/man. It's best if you just don't respond to her/his posts ...most of them are just taunts anyway made to piss you off.

Baron Max

You are so blind you can't even see the obvious.

People hate the US for decades of immoral selfish foreign policy causing chaos, death, destruction all over the world on a scale seldom seen before.

And until you can see the truth you will never understand why the US has no friends other than dictatorial regimes anymore.

And she is a Mod? I thought continuous flaming wasn't legal on the thread.

We went to Indias aid.
What in particular are you referring to?

spuriousmonkey, your personnel opinion, provide proof of you theses.

Nickelodeon

Foreign Aid and India:
Financing the Leviathan State
by Shyam J. Kamath

Shyam J. Kamath is an associate professor of economics in the School of Business and Economics, California State University at Hayward.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Executive Summary

With a debate now raging over whether further foreign aid programs financed by U.S. taxpayers are justified in the post-Cold War era, a review of the development experience of the recipient of the largest amount of foreign aid is instructive. India has received more foreign aid than any other developing nation since the end of World War II--estimated at almost $55 billion since the beginning of its First Five-Year Plan in 1951.(1) It has long been an article of faith among development economists and policymakers that foreign aid is a necessary and central component of economic development, yet the record of Indian economic development since 1947 belies that view.

India has had one of the lowest rates of growth of all developing countries and remains one of the poorest countries in the world after almost 45 years of aid-financed, centrally planned development. Foreign aid has directly financed and sustained India's centralized planning and control framework and thereby financed the growth of one of the noncommunist world's largest and most inefficient public sectors. In 1988-89, 101 of the country's 222 largest public-sector companies recorded losses and contributed to a federal deficit five times as large, in relative terms, as the U.S. budget deficit.(2)

Today, after nearly 45 years of planned economic development, India's annual per capita income remains around $300. Almost 40 percent of Indians live below the official poverty line, and the absolute number of Indians in that category increased sharply between the late 1950s and the mid-1980s. In short, India is a paradigmatic case of the failure of government-sponsored aid; it stands as a dramatic testimonial to why such aid should go the way of the socialist development model it has bankrolled for decades.

And she is a Mod? I thought continuous flaming wasn't legal on the thread.

Stop doing it then.

India has received more foreign aid than any other developing nation since the end of World War II--estimated at almost $55 billion since the beginning of its First Five-Year Plan in 1951.
What makes you think this all came from the US?

United States assistance was significant in the late 1950s and 1960s but, because of strained India-United States relations, fell off sharply in the 1970s. The United States accounted for 8.6 percent of all of the aid India received from independence through FY 1988, but for only 0.7 percent in FY 1989 and 0.6 percent in FY 1990. United States aid to India remained relatively insignificant in the early 1990s when it took the form of grants for food aid and consultants

We hear from the expert flamer, if I was only half as good at flaming as you are.

Please provide proof of any such statement ever made by the Officials or Government of the United States making such a statement, Sam your such a bigot.

Well, we did arrest a Muslim lawyer in Oregon for having a part in the Spanish train bombings, who turned out to be innocent. Then there's the Muslims forced off a plane for praying...

Spidergoat what does that have to do with wanting to wipe out a race of people from the face of the earth?

That's how it starts.

Never said it did, was just pointing out that India is recieving aid from the U.S. and it started from the end of WWII and continues to this day, and am now in the process of doing the research to see how much. This is what I have found so far:

http://www.mofa.go.jp/policy/oda/evaluation/2003/india.pdf

Cooperation of other donors
1) The general trend of the major bilateral donors in terms of the total aid amount in the
evaluation period puts Japan in the leading position, followed by the UK and Germany.
In the Year 2000/2001, Japan was at the top with US$ 786.3 million, leaving the UK
(US$ 474.7 million) and Germany (US$ 193.2 million) in second and third place. Among
the leading international aid organizations, the World Bank topped the table with
3
US$ 2,488.3 millions, followed by the ADB with US$ 1,155 million in the same year.

Hell give the GWB admin free rein and they'll do the exact same thing.
Now that's just absurd. Bush isn't even that conservative, let alone a fascist.

Now that's just absurd. Bush isn't even that conservative, let alone a fascist.

Maybe not to you, but you have a biased perspective because you are extreme rightwing American.

To western European standard he does have fascist tendencies (which is not equal to being a fascist). And he certainly is extreme right on the political scale. Even the rightwing parties in Europe are less rightwing than democrats in the US.

And until you finally start realizing that other people do not think the same as americans you will always fuck up as a nation.

Ironically I have absolutely no problem connecting with any people accept americans. Iranians, turks, indians, Germans, Canadians, French, Australians, somalians etc. We can all talk to each other and relate to each other. We are not the same, but we can talk about differences. American culture can truly be the most alien of them all, because many of them simply cannot relate to other people.

And insisting on your 'dominance' or 'bringing freedom' or whatever silly concept your make up in your head just makes things worse. You first have to understand the other person.

It's quite typical that Bush didn't follow up the advice of establishing a diplomatic relationship with Syria and Iran to solve this problem. The arrogance didn't allow for it.

...the advice of establishing a diplomatic relationship with Syria and Iran to solve this problem. ...

When, in all of human history, has diplomacy ever solved any major conflict between nations?

I'm most curious ...especially since practically everyone suggests and advises diplomacy to solve problems, yet there are few, if any, diplomatic solutions that have ever worked. Why do people continue to suggest diplomacy when it has such a meager, or no, track record?

Baron Max

... Why do people continue to suggest diplomacy when it has such a meager, or no, track record? Baron MaxI guess they are looking at the track record achieved by dropping bomb, spraying bullets when you can not even speak the local language, etc. and thought:

"Surely there must be a better way. "Stay this Course" is just making everything much worse."

This should remove any remaining doubt about the puppet status of the government US set up in Iraq:

"WASHINGTON, Jan. 12 — A recent series of American raids against Iranians in Iraq was authorized under an order that President Bush decided to issue several months ago to undertake a broad military offensive against Iranian operatives in the country, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Friday. ..." - NYTimes (and to many others also covering her news conference)

I hope Bush at least told the local "government" - they should have as a reward for the recent "Iraqi" rubber stamp authorization given to WESTERN oil companies (read that as US as France, Germany, etc are still not allowed operate or even subcontract.) to "explore at will."

Read full article at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/13/world/middleeast/13strategy.html?ex=1326344400&en=a4ed95ed865674c5&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss
and learn Bush made the "authorization" last fall but did not tell anyone outside of the administration.

I guess they are looking at the track record achieved by dropping bomb, spraying bullets ....

Which has worked well throughout human history. And, in fact, it's just such bombs and bullets that's gotten us this far in human accomplishments.

Baron Max

When, in all of human history, has diplomacy ever solved any major conflict between nations?

France-Germany

France considered Germany still its enemy after WW2. But after humiliations by the US it started reconsidering its policy. Germany grasped that chance. Together with diplomacy they made a policy for the future where they would dictate the way Europe would develop leading to their dominance of the EU.

Actually the success of diplomacy is mostly invisible because it avoids conflict.

Not a very difficult concept I would say.

{bombs & bullets} worked well throughout human history. And, in fact, it's just such bombs and bullets that's gotten us this far in human accomplishments. Baron MaxI think education (especially when all have access to it) has done much more. Especially teaching the masses to read & write has had far more beneficial effect on "human accomplishments."

However, I agree, bombs and bullets have their place and can be very useful. I spent a few years using my education to make the HARM missile better (It takes out ground radars when launched from many miles away by approaching fighter etc. Especially high on the target priority list are the fire control radars than might otherwise take out the US fighters etc.) There were many ways to make it miss - for example have two ground radars with same frequency but physically apart so initial versions would hit the dirt between them (called the “centroiding problem”) - which was solved well before I began to work on some more sophisticated problems - one of which maker thought was also solved, until I showed that the solution would often fail. etc.

I.e. education is even good for making better bombs and bullets.

Despite my generally thinking war is usually a very bad solution, sometimes it will happen and sometimes it is the only solution. Thus, I felt good (especially since I always had "college deferments" and never wore a uniform) and like to think that one or two US Navy pilots may have been able to drop their bomb load AND return to the carrier because of me. There is even a benefit to the people being bombed in that when the pilot is less concerned about the ground radar controlled anti-aircraft missiles, he can get in closer and put the bombs "on target," for example, a bridge, instead of on the near by village, with greater probability.

I also did a little work to help keep Polaris sub safe. - I never liked land based* ICBMs, especially after they were “MIRVed” but if “MAD” was necessary or unavoidable, I was glad to do what I could (not much) to keep those subs so secure that they need not launch even in the same day they thought the US was under atomic attack. (The land based ICBMs had less than 15 minutes before launch was “now or never.”)

What you fail to understand is that bombs and spraying bullets at people whose language you do not understand (as in Iraq) is very rarely the best solution**. Even well educated people , like Dr. Connie Rice, get so wrapped up in events that they can not understand this.

For example, she is now in the Middle East telling governments the US considers to be at least neutral that Iraq is "in their neighborhood" and thus "their problem" - that they must "support the government of Iraq" etc. She fails to notice that the government of Iraq is dominantly Shiite and is already being strongly supported by one Mid East government. - I.e. Iran is helping arm the Shiite death squads, which sometime, especially during daylight hours, are called Iraqi Police.

Effectively, she is calling on neighboring Sunni governments to enter the civil war so the whole Mid East can go up in smoke (and the world into depression as oil flow is decreased and prices rise).

The irony of her current "peace mission" would have me laughing, if I were not crying.
---------------------------------------------
*Land based ICBMs were stupid and very destablizing after they were MIRVed. - They and the airforce's SAC bombers only existed because of the tripart division of the US military (Air force, army, and navy each demanded and got a "piece of the pie" - at best only wasting 100s of billions of tax payer dollars -at worst after, MIRVing causing WWIII.)
**Stupid as he is, even Bush has understood after three years of "stay the course."
Do you really want to be a slower learner than Bush? !!!!

Actually the success of diplomacy is mostly invisible because it avoids conflict. Not a very difficult concept I would say.

No, the concept isn't difficult, Spurious, but a conflict must actually be present, and recognizable as such, for diplomacy to even be considered.

You example, by the way, sucks! Even you mentioned that World War II was completed, and the power of war was used as a tool to force the French and the Germans to reconcile ....if they even did?!

Diplomacy without the threat of armed combat or war is nothing more than a few people talking over wine and dinner. they can talk and even agree on things ...but they can't make the nations abide by the agreements.

Pals and Israelis are a good example of that form of diplomacy ...the big boys talk and agree, then the little guys continue to send in the rockets and bullets and explosives. Diplomacy is bullshit without a big damned stick to enforce it.

Baron Max