US admits its war against the Mid East is the cause of terror

GeoffP

05-03-06, 11:58 AM

There it is , the US Bush Junta incriminates itself and admits to what we already know that it is the US what drives the terror .So if a small atomic device turns Cincinnatti into a lake of green glass or New York chokes on a home made chemical bomb or Washington D.C turns into a festering putrid scab because of a biological attack , you know who to blame , your own goverment and its military .

I agree that the US should get out of Iraq, but note: the terrorists in Iraq are not in the right by any means. They are driving for more and more sectarian violence in a last-gasp effort to reinstate the fascist Sunni dictatorship upon the once-oppressed Shi'ite peoples of Iraq. They are attempting to replace the rule of the many with the rule of the few, and their attacks are designed to destroy the ability of the nascent, revitalized nation to control its own affairs. This is not right.

Moreover: Clockwood's analogy is correct. Where was the need to "resist" American forces in the first place? Why? What for? For civilian casualties during the war? Those were not intentional. Why engage in terrorism now? They prefer to live under a fascist dictatorship? They are ignoring the historical dialectic, and the humanitarian impetus here. Why do they permit the importing of foreign terrorists bent on killing innocent Shi'ite civilians? What kind of "resistance" is this where weddings and schools are targeted?

If terrorists were to strike the US now using nuclear weapons as Brian speculates, then there should be an appropriate counter-response: say, a nuclear obliteration of Mecca, or perhaps a chemical strike to merely make every surface in the Holy City there untouchable (given low incident precipitation there) untouchable for the next several thousand years. That would appear a highly appropriate response. Alternatively the home city of whatever nation the terrorists came from could be obliterated, and ought to be.

Geoff

Chatha

05-03-06, 12:07 PM

The whole thing wasn't really clear from the beginning, this is what happens when you do things with no insight. Its like Japan attacking Peal Harbor and America retaliating with an attack on China.

spuriousmonkey

05-03-06, 12:09 PM

Where was the need to "resist" American forces in the first place? Why? What for? For civilian casualties during the war? Those were not intentional.

Of course they were. How can you wage war without civilian casualties. How else can you bomb power stations, infrastructure without intentionally killing civilians? Because you didn't know they would be there? Because you didn't realize a city without a working sewage system would be vulnerable to all kinds of infectious diseases?

Why engage in terrorism now? They prefer to live under a fascist dictatorship?
maybe they don't want to live under the puppet regime of the foreign invader.

They are ignoring the historical dialectic, and the humanitarian impetus here. Why do they permit the importing of foreign terrorists bent on killing innocent Shi'ite civilians? What kind of "resistance" is this where weddings and schools are targeted?
Who are you kidding. You waged a war killing more than 100.000 iraqis. How humaniarian is that?

s0meguy

05-03-06, 02:47 PM

100.000
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

A bit overstating, don't you think? That doesn't mean I don't agree with you though.

spuriousmonkey

05-03-06, 02:56 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3962969.stm

Poor planning, air strikes by coalition forces and a "climate of violence" have led to more than 100,000 extra deaths in Iraq, scientists claim.

And let's not forget about the first gulf war.

anyway...it's a lot. 30.000 or 100.000

Clockwood

05-03-06, 03:38 PM

Spurious: Intentionally causing civilian casualties requires that your express goal be to kill as many innocents as possible. Civilian deaths were the unintended and unfortunate byproduct of the war. While some were inevitable, efforts were made to minimize them on the part of the American military.

Yes, we wished to cripple the enemy's ability to fight back in the hopes of saving the lives of American soldiers. We shut down power and communication systems, ammunition and military equipment stores, and anything else that we thought might make a difference in days ahead. Some people were in the way but we couldn't just not bomb because they were there. No war could be waged from that stance. Ever.

Any subsequent deaths from lack of clean water or disease would have been further minimized if it wasn't for sabotage and the constant risk reconstruction engineers must face from terrorists. Rebuilding isn't easy when nutjobs rip out your power lines, bust your pipes, and blow up your workers every time you turn your back.

GeoffP

05-03-06, 03:54 PM

Of course they were. How can you wage war without civilian casualties. How else can you bomb power stations, infrastructure without intentionally killing civilians? Because you didn't know they would be there? Because you didn't realize a city without a working sewage system would be vulnerable to all kinds of infectious diseases?

I think if you think about if for a bit, you might find that there were other reasons for those targets. Do you honestly - honestly - imagine that the civilian casualties were intentional? Do you suppose that if the US were really trying to cause civilian casualties that they might have been able to say, up them by about two orders of magnitude? Nice, packed-in cities and B52 bombers.

maybe they don't want to live under the puppet regime of the foreign invader.

They got to vote. For you types concerned with democracy, that's a step up. And they elected a islamic government. That's a heck of a puppet regime to create. And - it pains me as a socialist to have to be the one to ask this - how do we even know it's a puppet regime?

Who are you kidding. You waged a war killing more than 100.000 iraqis. How humaniarian is that?

I did? :eek:

I don't recall that. Are you referring to the US? I'm not them either. I also don't recall 100,000 casualties, except in some politically motivated Lancet article that had confidence intervals on the estimate so wide that it was actually questionable from a statistical standpoint whether or not there were any casualties at all.

My point was that the Saddam government - which was bad - was taken down. Okay - country in turmoil, things need to be fixed, government needs to be set up. Sunnis - why are you rebelling now? Now is not the time to be running around trying to blow things up. Nor, really, is it ever that time. I appreciate that you're pissed you lost control of Iraq. I get that. I feel your pain. I understand that the Sunni governmental monopoly is gone, and that you're nervous. I get that. One day, you're cocks of the walk, and the next day that Shi'ite guy from two doors down is humiliating you by daring to marry your daughter and you're just not sure about the Kurdish gardeners; their trowels are sharp and they don't look happy. But you're in the minority; you were always in the minority and you had to know it was going to end sooner or later. I'm not saying that Shi'ites should be oppressing you now: far from it. But you have to expect that yes - there might be some petty political revenge for the last thirty years or so. They're going to be mad.

Live with it. Terrorism is not the answer. Neither is bloody importing idiots on the short bus from Saudi to do the terrorism thang. If you're so sure that now the Shi'ites are free to elect governments etc they're going to run rampant all over you, then my suggestion is calm the hell down and either leave or accept the fact that they're pissed and they might take subtle revenge on you in little political ways. Is blowing up people at their frigging weddings going to help your little cause? Is wrecking the country that is trying to put itself back together going to help? Answer: no, Jimbo, it isn't. If you want to take things over and convince everyone that America is evil and is running your show (and funnily enough, I used to make the same claim about Saddam) then by all means, USE APPROVED POLITICAL METHODOLOGIES TO SPREAD THE WORD. Have a bake sale, print some flyers. Do you know how many flyers you can print for the cost of an RPG? I don't either, but I'll bet it's a lot. Interview people. Get on the radio. Show the rest of the country how evil BushHitler McHaliChimpyRove is by talking about him and even by civil action that doesn't involve TNT.

It's not a hard formula. It just involves a little perseverance.

Geoff

boppa

05-04-06, 09:59 AM

then by all means, USE APPROVED POLITICAL METHODOLOGIES TO SPREAD THE WORD. Have a bake sale, print some flyers. Do you know how many flyers you can print for the cost of an RPG? I don't either, but I'll bet it's a lot. Interview people. Get on the radio. Show the rest of the country how evil BushHitler McHaliChimpyRove is by talking about him and even by civil action that doesn't involve TNT.

It's not a hard formula. It just involves a little perseverance.

Geoff

um

o...k.....

imho they are simply using EXACTLY the same tactics that bush used against them in the first place

remember `shock and awe'??

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/22/iraq/main545267.shtml

Interview people. Get on the radio. Show the rest of the country how evil BushHitler McHaliChimpyRove is by talking about him and even by civil action that doesn't involve TNT.

ie do what we say-not what we do.........

`Ordnance crews worked steadily through the day attaching global positioning system and laser guidance kits to 500-pound, 1,000-pound and 2000-pound bombs, and moving the ordnance from the ship's 22 weapons magazine to holding bays.'

i see NO mention there of bake sales or fliers......
(but a lot about some bloody big bombs......)

boppa

05-04-06, 10:10 AM

i can `really' see if the usa got invaded -for their own good mind you ;-)

i bet that not one person would fight against those foreign invaders

but bake sales would be at an all time high.......

if that is what you really think would happen

i gotta bridge for sale here-real cheap

;-)

GeoffP

05-04-06, 11:35 AM

um

o...k.....

Are you forgetting the pointless sanctions that got hundreds of thousands of people killed of malnutrition (among other things) and the ten years of psychological and economic pressure on Iraqis that still didn't get a governmental change?

Oh, I agree that the war was probably pointless...well kind of...I'm not sure. Hussein was in total defiance of the UN, and was probably going to try to get nukes at some point - can you really leave a guy like that hanging around? It's like putting millions of lives and the complete stability of a region in the hands of possible the least sane person there and just hoping everything will turn out for the best. I dunno.

As for the shock and awe - I don't recall that they were deliberately trying to cause civilian casualties, which is what the terrorists are doing. Their aims, though, are similar: regime change to something they approve of more. Now - we don't actually know what the elected government there would or is doing that they don't approve of, as it's my understanding they haven't done a whole lot, policy-wise yet. So the acts of terrorists to try and bring them down by blowing up civilians left right and centre is - imho - a bit premature. Why don't they give them a chance - or a couple dozen chances, like Hussein was given - and see what happens? Then, if they still don't like it, try a little politics. Then, if that doesn't go to their liking, they have two choices: live with the fact that no one believes them (and if the arguments all around are fair, they'll have their say too) or turn to violence.

Your argument is based on the presupposition that the terrorists represent "the people" - a good chunk of these nutbars are rejects from Iran, Saudi and Syria. How does their blowing up civilians - or for that matter, Sunni terrorists blowing up civilians - help anything?

As for your last comment: so is the US run by a despot? And don't start in with the ChimpyMcHitlerRove stuff - is the US run by a real despot? A Hitler or a Stalin or a Mao or a Pol Pot or a Pinochet? Because that's the kind of good-old-bloke who was running Iraq.

Or are you going to be able to vote the guy out in a few years?

Not that close an analogy, is it?

Geoff

spuriousmonkey

05-04-06, 11:40 AM

Roman

05-04-06, 12:03 PM

Terrorism is not the answer.

But bombing civilian targets from 40,000 feet is?

GeoffP

05-04-06, 12:33 PM

Again: did they deliberately bomb civilians? I agree that the war was wrongly constructed...although...the WMDs were only part of the equation...anyway, whatever. But I don't believe for a moment that they deliberately bombed civilians. I'm pretty damned sure that civilians were around some of the targets - the Iraqis even deliberately used international peace activists in the context of "human shields", as we know - but I seriously doubt they went after civilians as targets. Let's be rational about this debate.

Geoff

Buffalo Roam

05-04-06, 03:02 PM

Here is a very intresting article: "Shaw was initially tapped to make an inventory of Saddam's conventional weapons stockpiles, based on intelligence estimates of arms deals he had concluded with the former Soviet Union, China and France.

He estimated that Saddam had amassed 100 million tons of munitions - roughly 60 percent of the entire U.S. arsenal. "The origins of these weapons were Russian, Chinese and French in declining order of magnitude, with the Russians holding the lion's share and the Chinese just edging out the French for second place."
"The intelligence included multiple sightings of truck convoys, convoys going north to the Syrian border and returning empty," he said.
Shaw worked closely with Julian Walker, a former British ambassador who had decades of experience in Iraq, and an unnamed Ukranian-American who was directly plugged in to the head of Ukraine's intelligence service.
The Ukrainians were eager to provide the United States with documents from their own archives on Soviet arms transfers to Iraq and on ongoing Russian assistance to Saddam, to thank America for its help in securing Ukraine's independence from the Soviet Union, Shaw said.
In addition to the convoys heading to Syria, Shaw said his contacts "provided information about steel drums with painted warnings that had been moved to a cellar of a hospital in Beirut."
In the end, here is what Shaw learned:

In December 2002, former Russian intelligence chief Yevgeni Primakov, a KGB general with long-standing ties to Saddam, came to Iraq and stayed until just before the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003.

Primakov supervised the execution of long-standing secret agreements, signed between Iraqi intelligence and the Russian GRU (military intelligence), that provided for clean-up operations to be conducted by Russian and Iraqi military personnel to remove WMDs, production materials and technical documentation from Iraq, so the regime could announce that Iraq was "WMD free."

Shaw said that this type GRU operation, known as "Sarandar," or "emergency exit," has long been familiar to U.S. intelligence officials from Soviet-bloc defectors as standard GRU practice.

In addition to the truck convoys, which carried Iraqi WMD to Syria and Lebanon in February and March 2003 "two Russian ships set sail from the (Iraqi) port of Umm Qasr headed for the Indian Ocean," where Shaw believes they "deep-sixed" additional stockpiles of Iraqi WMD from flooded bunkers in southern Iraq that were later discovered by U.S. military intelligence personnel.

The Russian "clean-up" operation was entrusted to a combination of GRU and Spetsnaz troops and Russian military and civilian personnel in Iraq "under the command of two experienced ex-Soviet generals, Colonel-General Vladislav Achatov and Colonel-General Igor Maltsev, both retired and posing as civilian commercial consultants."

Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz reported on Oct. 30, 2004, that Achatov and Maltsev had been photographed receiving medals from Iraqi Defense Minister Sultan Hashim Ahmed in a Baghdad building bombed by U.S. cruise missiles during the first U.S. air raids in early March 2003.

Shaw says he leaked the information about the two Russian generals and the clean-up operation to Gertz in October 2004 in an effort to "push back" against claims by Democrats that were orchestrated with CBS News to embarrass President Bush just one week before the November 2004 presidential election. The press sprang bogus claims that 377 tons of high explosives of use to Iraq's nuclear weapons program had "gone missing" after the U.S.-led liberation of Iraq, while ignoring intelligence of the Russian-orchestrated evacuation of Iraqi WMDs.

The two Russian generals "had visited Baghdad no fewer than 20 times in the preceding five to six years," Shaw revealed. U.S. intelligence knew "the identity and strength of the various Spetsnaz units, their dates of entry and exit in Iraq, and the fact that the effort (to clean up Iraq's WMD stockpiles) with a planning conference in Baku from which they flew to Baghdad."

The Baku conference, chaired by Russian Minister of Emergency Situations Sergei Shoigu, "laid out the plans for the Sarandar clean-up effort so that Shoigu could leave after the keynote speech for Baghdad to orchestrate the planning for the disposal of the WMD."

Subsequent intelligence reports showed that Russian Spetsnaz operatives "were now changing to civilian clothes from military/GRU garb," Shaw said. "The Russian denial of my revelations in late October 2004 included the statement that "only Russian civilians remained in Baghdad." That was the "only true statement" the Russians made, Shaw ironized.
The evacuation of Saddam's WMD to Syria and Lebanon "was an entirely controlled Russian GRU operation," Shaw said. "It was the brainchild of General Yevgenuy Primakov."

The goal of the clean-up was "to erase all trace of Russian involvement" in Saddam's WMD programs, and "was a masterpiece of military camouflage and deception."

Just as astonishing as the Russian clean-up operation were efforts by Bush administration appointees, including Defense Department spokesman Laurence DiRita, to smear Shaw and to cover up the intelligence information he brought to light.

"Larry DiRita made sure that this story would never grow legs," Shaw said. "He whispered sotto voce [quietly] to journalists that there was no substance to my information and that it was the product of an unbalanced mind."

Shaw suggested that the answer of why the Bush administration had systematically "ignored Russia's involvement" in evacuating Saddam's WMD stockpiles "could be much bigger than anyone has thought," but declined to speculate what exactly was involved.

Retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Thomas McInerney was less reticent. He thought the reason was Iran.

"With Iran moving faster than anyone thought in its nuclear programs," he told NewsMax, "the administration needed the Russians, the Chinese and the French, and was not interested in information that would make them look bad."

McInerney agreed that there was "clear evidence" that Saddam had WMD. "Jack Shaw showed when it left Iraq, and how."

Former Undersecretary of Defense Richard Perle, a strong supporter of the war against Saddam, blasted the CIA for orchestrating a smear campaign against the Bush White House and the war in Iraq.

"The CIA has been at war with the Bush administration almost from the beginning," he said in a keynote speech at the Intelligence Summit on Saturday.

He singled out recent comments by Paul Pillar, a former top CIA Middle East analyst, alleging that the Bush White House "cherry-picked" intelligence to make the case for war in Iraq.

"Mr. Pillar was in a very senior position and was able to make his views known, if that is indeed what he believed," Perle said.

"He (Pillar) briefed senior policy officials before the start of the Iraq war in 2003. If he had had reservations about the war, he could have voiced them at that time." But according to officials briefed by Pillar, Perle said, he never did.

Even more inexplicable, Perle said, were the millions of documents "that remain untranslated" among those seized from Saddam Hussein's intelligence services.

"I think the intelligence community does not want them to be exploited," he said.

Among those documents, presented Saturday at the conference by former FBI translator Bill Tierney, were transcripts of Saddam's palace conversations with top aides in which he discussed ongoing nuclear weapons plans in 2000, well after the U.N. arms inspectors believed he had ceased all nuclear weapons work.

"What was most disturbing in those tapes," Tierney said, "was the fact that the individuals briefing Saddam were totally unknown to the U.N. Special Commission."

In addition, Tierney said, the plasma uranium programs Saddam discussed with his aids as ongoing operations in 2000 had been dismissed as "old programs" disbanded years earlier, according to the final CIA report on Iraq's weapons programs, presented in 2004 by the Iraq Survey Group.

"When I first heard those tapes" about the uranium plasma program, "it completely floored me," Tierney said.

Iraq

Buffalo Roam

05-04-06, 03:16 PM

Some more information that has been ignored
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Skip to comments.

Iraq documents could boost Bush's case for war
SHNS ^ | 15-DEC-05 | By DEROY MURDOCK

Posted on 01/06/2006 9:11:32 AM PST by april15Bendovr

Iraq documents could boost Bush's case for war

By DEROY MURDOCK Scripps Howard News Service 15-DEC-05

If hostile prowlers somehow penetrated the White House, Team Bush would disable their own canisters of pepper spray, hide every accessible baseball bat, dash beneath their desks, and pray that the aggressors vanish.

Beyond some recent tough speeches, President Bush and his advisers fail to deploy readily available ammunition to combat political prowlers, namely those who demand America's retreat from Iraq.

On two key fronts _ Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass death and his generous support for Islamic terrorists _ the Bush administration maddeningly conceals evidence that justifies its decision to topple Hussein. Perhaps those at the mislabeled White House Communications Office believe that not communicating will defeat the corrosive arguments of Democratic chief Howard Dean and other Bushophobes who relentlessly carpet-bomb American efforts in Iraq.

In a recent magazine article revealing the latest squandered opportunities, Stephen Hayes _ author of "The Connection" (on Hussein's pro-terrorist activities) _ reports on today's Pentagon papers. These mainly unclassified Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) materials implicate Hussein's government in multifarious mischief. Much of it violated U.N. Security Council Resolution 687 that prohibited Baghdad from associating with terrorists. The Pentagon's HARMONY database identifies these records via highly tantalizing names:

_ "Possible al Qaeda Terror Members in Iraq."

_ "Chemical Agent Purchase Orders (Dec. 2001)."

_ "Correspondence between various Iraq organizations giving instructions to hide chemicals and equipment."

_ "Category: Al Qaeda.''

Title: Letters, logbook, training manual from Al Qaeda Chemical Plant regarding Chem Warfare

Short Description: Contains papers concerning Iraqi officials, prices of equipment, training plans, and actions by high level officers all concerning chemical warfare

Agency: DIA (Defense Intelligence Agency)

Document Date: Feb-02

Document #: ICSQ-2003-00025586"

_ "Title: IIS Correspondence for the Iraq Embassy in the Philippines and Iraqi MFA (Ministry of Foreign Affairs).

Short Description: Various correspondence, as well as visa forms, trade delegations, full reports on the connections between Abu Sayaf and the Qadafi Charity Establishment. Report on a certain individual traveling to Pakistan and involvements with bin Laden.

Agency: DIA

Document Date: Mar-01

Document #: ISGP-2003-00014100"

"Who traveled to Pakistan?" Hayes wonders. "What was his involvement with bin Laden? Did he have anything to do with the Iraqi government?"

The following text might offer answers:

_ "Title: Secret Meeting with Taliban Group member and Iraqi Government

Short Description: Mtg. between al Qaeda and Iraqi government and decision to operate.

Agency: DIA

Document Date: Nov-00

Document #: ISGP-2003-00014127"

So, a record dated 10 months before 9/11 indicates that Saddam Hussein's employees clandestinely met Taliban and al Qaeda agents regarding a "decision to operate." Meditate on that.

According to documents Hayes cites, the former director of Iraq's Intelligence Directorate 4 met bin Laden on Feb. 19, 1995. Baghdad considered bin Laden an "Iraqi intelligence asset" since 1992, one communique reads. After bin Laden left Sudan for Afghanistan in May 1996, Hussein wanted "other channels through which to handle the relationship, in light of his (bin Laden's) current location." The IIS memo continued: "Cooperation between the two organizations should be allowed to develop freely through discussion and agreement."

Naturally, the White House and Pentagon are busy defending Bush's policies by translating and authenticating these and similar records and promoting them among Congressional and journalistic supporters and detractors.

Wrong!

The Bush administration inexplicably suppresses such papers. They reject file requests from Hayes, America's most broadly published expert on Hussein's terrorist credentials. Hayes, who generally supports the president on Iraq, is flummoxed: "The Bush administration seems remarkably uninterested in discovering, now that we have reams of material from Saddam's regime, what the actual terror-related and WMD-related activities of that regime were."

Incredibly, the Pentagon's Doc-Ex, or document exploitation project, may close Dec. 31. Its roughly 700 translators in Doha, Qatar, have analyzed 50,000 items among some 2 million captured in Iraq. This public-diplomacy treasure trove could remain invisible. Far worse, intelligence data on potential mass-murder conspiracies may stay unread until after a Baathist-inspired attack kills Americans or our allies.

Maybe the Bushies are masochists who enjoy being bludgeoned. If so, they need to get over it and showcase these papers. Even now, proof that Hussein possessed WMDs and sponsored terrorists, including Osama bin Laden, will demonstrate the necessity of Operation Iraqi Freedom. The alternative is to stash this evidence and hope that Howard Dean and his fellow prowlers quietly disappear.

(Deroy Murdock is a columnist with Scripps Howard News Service and a senior fellow with the Atlas Economic Research Foundation in Fairfax, Va. E-mail him at deroy.murdock(at)gmail.com.)

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TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: DEROYMURDOCK; IRAQ; PREWARINTELLIGENCE
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This is an old article and I am surprised it didnt show up when I ran a FReeper search. Its to important to miss
"The Bush administration inexplicably suppresses such papers. They reject file requests from Hayes, America's most broadly published expert on Hussein's terrorist credentials. Hayes, who generally supports the president on Iraq, is flummoxed: "The Bush administration seems remarkably uninterested in discovering, now that we have reams of material from Saddam's regime, what the actual terror-related and WMD-related activities of that regime were."

I agree with Stephen Hayes. The Presidents Administration has been absent on both Salman Pak and Operation Able Danger.

We should be shoving this documentation down the throat of the Mainstream Media
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Buffalo Roam

05-04-06, 03:20 PM

Some more information
More information has surfaced in recent days about Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction programs, and the possible roles of Syria and Russia in spiriting WMD and massive arsenals of conventional munitions out of Iraq prior to the start of the war three years ago.
The new information includes audio recordings of 12 hours of conversations from the early 1990s through 2000 involving Saddam Hussein and his top aides, in which Saddam discusses how to conceal Iraqi weapons programs from U.N. inspectors and the possibility that the United States could be the target of terrorist attacks. The recordings were provided by Bill Tierney, an Arabic speaker, who worked during the mid-1990s for the United Nations Special Commission that was responsible for overseeing Iraq's disarmament.
One new piece of information revealed on the tapes, released Saturday by Mr. Tierney at the Intelligence Summit, a private conference held in Arlington, is that Saddam was actively working on a plan to enrich uranium using a technique known as plasma separation. This is particularly worrisome because of the date of the conversation: It took place in 2000, nearly five years after Iraq's nuclear programs were thought to have stopped.
Perhaps most disturbing of all, according to Mr. Tierney, was the fact that the Iraqi scientists briefing Saddam about the uranium enrichment plan in 2000 "were totally unknown" to U.N. weapons inspectors. The plasma program also appears to have escaped the attention of the Iraq Survey Group, which reported two years ago that it had ended back in the late 1980s.
Mr. Tierney points out that the 12 hours of information that he has translated thus far is just a small fraction of the hundreds of hours of tape recordings and other raw intelligence data collected after the fall of Saddam.
Another speaker at the conference was John Shaw, former deputy undersecretary of defense for international technology security, who charged that Saddam's stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction were moved by Russian special forces into Syria and Lebanon. According to Mr. Shaw, former Russian intelligence boss Yevgeny Primakov came to Iraq in December 2002 in order to supervise "cleanup" operations to remove WMD production materials from the country. This operation, carried out by GRU military intelligence and Russian "spetsnaz," or special forces, troops, was designed to make it possible for critics of the war to be able to claim that Iraq had had no WMD. Mr. Shaw claims that officials in the Pentagon and the CIA, who were fearful of alienating Moscow, actively worked to discredit his efforts to bring this story to light, and that some derided it as "Israeli disinformation."
It is apparent that the American public has much more to learn about Moscow, Damascus and WMD and precisely when Saddam's nuclear weapons programs actually stopped.

Buffalo Roam

05-04-06, 03:25 PM

I had no problem in doing reasearch to find this information, and I'm a computer illiterate, why can't all you brilliant liberals find this information to? then may be you would sound a little informed on the subject!

spidergoat

05-04-06, 04:09 PM

Who is this Shaw fellow?

Also, it makes no sense that Saddam would send WMD's to any other nation, who could then use them against him.

If the Bush administration had evidence that Saddam still retained WMD's, don't you think they would be shouting it from the rooftops? Even Rummy admits that Saddam appears not to have had any prior to our invasion.

I'm pretty sure the reports of looted explosives are true, since very few US soldiers were assigned to guard them, and trucks were seen going in and out of those complexes. The seals on the doors were broken as well.

Buffalo Roam

05-04-06, 07:51 PM

Google, (saddam wmd iraq syira russian spietnaz ) ck it out for youself, source's Washington Times, FRONTPAGEMAG.COM, www.newsmax.com, post-gazette.com, Free Republic, 5 part series, Investors Business Daily, World Net Daily, Capitalism Magazine, To The point News, GlobalThinkDotNet, and 46800 other sights!
March 15, 2006
Saddam General Explains Saddam’s ‘Secrets’ — WMDs, Bombing Israel, and Genocide (AUDIO)
I have yet to listen to the whole interview, however reader Anthony J. said that this is a must listen:

Former Iraqi General Georges Sada, who was a military adviser to Saddam Hussein appeared on The Mike Rosen Show (850 AM KOA). He is described as an expert air pilot who played a large part in saving coalition forces’ lives in Gulf War I. Sada explains what happened to the WMDs prior to the US led invasion of Iraq in 2003 and Saddam’s planned attack on Israel.

General Sada wrote a book about his tenure serving under Saddam Hussein:

Former Iraqi General Sada delivers a riveting inside account of Saddam Hussein’s tyranny, including confirmation of the existence and hiding of weapons of mass destruction. Despite being a Christian and refusing to join the Baath Party, Sada was promoted to Saddam’s inner circle for his honest advice. Sada criticizes most countries and the United Nations (whose workers he accuses of accepting bribes) for their complicity in propagating Saddam’s regime. But he strongly praises Operation Iraqi Freedom, pointing out that no other country would take the first step. The book has an unexpectedly religious angle, being slightly Christian-centric and paranoid over Muslim population growth in the West. Regardless, Sada blames Saddam for destroying Iraq, but remains hopeful the nation will have a chance to become a modern society, fulfilling its great historical legacy.

spidergoat

05-04-06, 09:06 PM

Those are all conservative-slanted sources.

Did you happen to see 60 Minutes on April 23?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/21/60minutes/main1527749.shtml

When no weapons of mass destruction surfaced in Iraq, President Bush insisted that all those WMD claims before the war were the result of faulty intelligence. But a former top CIA official, Tyler Drumheller — a 26-year veteran of the agency — has decided to do something CIA officials at his level almost never do: Speak out.

He tells correspondent Ed Bradley the real failure was not in the intelligence community but in the White House. He says he saw how the Bush administration, time and again, welcomed intelligence that fit the president's determination to go to war and turned a blind eye to intelligence that did not...

---

Meanwhile, the CIA had made a major intelligence breakthrough on Iraq’s nuclear program. Naji Sabri, Iraq’s foreign minister, had made a deal to reveal Iraq’s military secrets to the CIA. Drumheller was in charge of the operation.

"This was a very high inner circle of Saddam Hussein. Someone who would know what he was talking about," Drumheller says.

"You knew you could trust this guy?" Bradley asked.

"We continued to validate him the whole way through," Drumheller replied.

According to Drumheller, CIA Director George Tenet delivered the news about the Iraqi foreign minister at a high-level meeting at the White House, including the president, the vice president and Secretary of State Rice.

At that meeting, Drumheller says, "They were enthusiastic because they said, they were excited that we had a high-level penetration of Iraqis."

What did this high-level source tell him?

"He told us that they had no active weapons of mass destruction program," says Drumheller.

"So in the fall of 2002, before going to war, we had it on good authority from a source within Saddam's inner circle that he didn't have an active program for weapons of mass destruction?" Bradley asked.

"Yes," Drumheller replied. He says there was doubt in his mind at all.

"It directly contradicts, though, what the president and his staff were telling us," Bradley remarked.

"The policy was set," Drumheller says. "The war in Iraq was coming. And they were looking for intelligence to fit into the policy, to justify the policy."

Buffalo Roam

05-04-06, 09:39 PM

And your sources are totaly independent I suppose? as if CBS hadn't already been caught falseifying stories, it cost some very important people their jobs, but not all the ones who needed to be fired were, did you even take the time to do any reasearch or did you dismiss the information out of hand because it didn't agree with your preconcieved prejudice, that makes for really intellegent thought process don't you agree? It would be very amaising if you had been able to read the sights I have listed in the time between post let alone reasearched all 46,800, even I haven't been able to do that and I found these sights over a month ago, what is your I.Q. Super Genious, And General Sada was on the inner councle to, so wouldn't he also be considered a viable and knowledgeable source?

spidergoat

05-05-06, 11:34 AM

CBS was never caught falsifying a story. Bush was AWOL from his national guard duty, and the origin of the forged papers are a mystery. CBS is to blame for not rigorously checking this, but the main point of the story is totally true.

I don't want to read your sources, since they are known liers. Not even the Bush administration thinks Saddam had WMD's now.

The Devil Inside

05-05-06, 12:20 PM

The book has an unexpectedly religious angle, being slightly Christian-centric and paranoid over Muslim population growth in the West.

when you write politically, it should remain politically.
as it is, he writes from (you even admit) a paranoid christian viewpoint.
i did some searching on him, and i seriously doubt that anything he writes has much weight to it.

should i start writing about how cool turkish people are, just because i live near and know some of them? no. because noone would take me seriously.

strike one.

TheVisitor

05-05-06, 01:50 PM

More information has surfaced in recent days about Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction programs, and the possible roles of Syria and Russia in spiriting WMD and massive arsenals of conventional munitions out of Iraq prior to the start of the war three years ago.

So Iraq having WMD's was not the issue, Bush downplayed the importance of the point conceding to the critics - ask yourself why?
Russia and Syria, had plenty of time to hide all Iraq's WMD's.
The real issue at hand is while Russia has turned on the U.S., arming Iran with modern S.A.M.'s and building them billion dollar nuclear reactors, the U.S. has surrounded Iran on three sides with troups in Iraq, Afganistan and the Persian Gulf.
Finnaly, the words "cold war" are out in the open again.

http://reuters.myway.com/article/20060505/2006-05-05T102918Z_01_L05500235_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-RUSSIA-USA-DC.html

Brian Foley

05-05-06, 02:25 PM

Russia and Syria, had plenty of time to hide all Iraq's WMD's.
Ah Bullshit ! How the Fuck could Iran get those WMD out of Iraq when Iraqs borders were heremetically sealed by the US military . They certainly couldnt fly them out , and seeing according to US intel there were hundreds of them so you can rule out driving them across to Syria . I would be a tad suspicious if the US would of missed those WMD on trailers , especially after the much trumpeted US media blitz about pin point finding of these weapons during the first gulf war .

GeoffP

05-05-06, 03:15 PM

Ah Bullshit ! How the Fuck could Iran get those WMD out of Iraq when Iraqs borders were heremetically sealed by the US military . They certainly couldnt fly them out , and seeing according to US intel there were hundreds of them so you can rule out driving them across to Syria . I would be a tad suspicious if the US would of missed those WMD on trailers , especially after the much trumpeted US media blitz about pin point finding of these weapons during the first gulf war .

I don't think I believe in the WMDs either, but how can you say the border was "hermetically sealed"? There are terrorists and weapons coming across the border from Syria and Iran even now. Hermetically sealed? Come on.

Geoff

Brian Foley

05-05-06, 03:27 PM

I don't think I believe in the WMDs either, but how can you say the border was "hermetically sealed"? There are terrorists and weapons coming across the border from Syria and Iran even now. Hermetically sealed? Come on.

Geoff
For Christsake , I was implying heremetically sealed in the case of smuggling WMD , there is a big difference between men and AK-47s crossing a porous border at night , to rockets and heavy trucks to transport them and military transport aircraft to fly them out of Iraq . Dont tell me Iraq smuggled hundreds of rockets and thousands of drums of chemical weapons out of Iraq without the US picking up on it .

TheVisitor

05-05-06, 03:45 PM

Buffalo Roam

05-05-06, 04:17 PM

As usual BF no reasearch, only opinion, backed up by prejudice, the WMD were moved just before war started, if you did any real reasearch you would have knowen this, it is pointed out in the stories, and 1-the WMD were in a location that when thing calmed down would allow for recovery, 2- biologicals only need a small seed stock to reconstitute, 3- the chemicals to turn many oridinary compound into chemical weapon are a very small part of the forumla. BF you have no military experience do you, have you ever been to a CBR school, do you have any training in biological or chemical weaponry, the leathel dose of many of these is in micron size amounts, wich means that 5lb of these compounds can contaminiate miles of territory. Do some reasearch so you at least sound like you know something and arn't talking out of your 4th point of contact.

GeoffP

05-05-06, 04:22 PM

For Christsake , I was implying heremetically sealed in the case of smuggling WMD , there is a big difference between men and AK-47s crossing a porous border at night , to rockets and heavy trucks to transport them and military transport aircraft to fly them out of Iraq . Dont tell me Iraq smuggled hundreds of rockets and thousands of drums of chemical weapons out of Iraq without the US picking up on it .

??? Weren't the weapons supposed to have been moved before the war even started? How could the Americans have sealed anything? Syria wasn't even co-operating with the blockade, was it?

Who even says that they would have had "thousands of chemical drums"? How many thousands would you need? And how could the Americans seal the Syrian border before the war started? I thought Syria wasn't down with that shit.

You know, from listening to you argue, I'm almost beginning to wonder if there actually weren't any WMD after all.

Geoff

Brian Foley

05-05-06, 08:03 PM

Like I said, it may not have been the point.
If national security hinges upon confidentiality, informing the press of the real motive behind every move would sabotage an open society.
Strategy in war involves diversion and mis-direction.
So all the liberal whining and media circus about WMDs in Iraq, is like water of a ducks back to Bush and Rumsfeld, and probably serving an intended purpose.
The larger picture is between the U.S. and Russia.
You position your pawns before an all-out assault.
Could you for the sake of my interest elaborate on your theory , you have presented a rather murky appraisal . Why isnt America demanding Syria hand over these WMD ? Seriously the US threatened force on Syria over Lebanon and Syria got out quick , so a similar demand from America would produce these WMD . The fact is they do not exist these much vaunted Iraqi WMD .
As usual BF no reasearch, only opinion, backed up by prejudice, the WMD were moved just before war started, if you did any real reasearch you would have knowen this, it is pointed out in the stories, and [QUOTE=Buffalo Roam]1-the WMD were in a location that when thing calmed down would allow for recovery,
So they moved at great risk thousands of tonnes and thousands of artillery shells and rockets undetected ?
2- biologicals only need a small seed stock to reconstitute,
And obviously this stock grows into tonnes and tonnes .
Special Report : Iraq's weapons of mass destruction (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/iraq/53125.stm)
Biological Weapons
UNSCOM has discovered that Iraq produced 19,000 litres of botulinum, 8,400 litres of anthrax, 2,000 litres of aflatoxin and clostridium.

In July 1995, Iraq finally admitted that it had sought to build an offensive biological warfare capability. In 1988 alone, it had imported 39 tonnes of growth for virulent agents such as anthrax and botulinum, only 22 tonnes of which could be satisfactorily accounted for in peaceful production. UNSCOM has destroyed much of the growth media, but it thinks as much as 17 tonnes is still unaccounted for.
See what I mean these stocks were huge something you dont just hide .
3- the chemicals to turn many oridinary compound into chemical weapon are a very small part of the forumla. BF you have no military experience do you, have you ever been to a CBR school, do you have any training in biological or chemical weaponry, the leathel dose of many of these is in micron size amounts, wich means that 5lb of these compounds can contaminiate miles of territory.
Im sorry to inform you , I know you have vast experience in the military , however the UN weapon inspectors destroyed thousands of tonnes not lbs .
Special Report : Iraq's weapons of mass destruction (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/iraq/53125.stm)
Chemical Weapons
* 38,537 filled and empty chemical munitions
* 480,00 tonnes of live chemical weapons agent
* more than 3,000 tonnes of precursor chemicals
* several hundred pieces of chemical weapons production equipment and related analytical instruments.
Perhaps you dont fully understand that you need thousands of tonnes of this stock to have an offensive arsenal , thats why you were in the military and not one of the civilians employed to do the thinking for the military . Military people dont do the thinking like yourself its civilians like myself in manufacturing industries who do , like designing the weapons , and all you do is shoot , a rather simplistic career the military .
Do some reasearch so you at least sound like you know something and arn't talking out of your 4th point of contact.
You simply dont grasp reality , the fact is you simply digest any information without analyzing its content .
??? Weren't the weapons supposed to have been moved before the war even started? How could the Americans have sealed anything? Syria wasn't even co-operating with the blockade, was it?
I dont know , show some links on Syrias recalitrance , as far as I know didnt Syria allie itself with America in its attack on Iraq .
Who even says that they would have had "thousands of chemical drums"? How many thousands would you need?
Well these are the US figurews of Iraq stocklpiles prior to the 2003 invasion and they run run into the thousands .
(a) Existing chemical weapons (http://middleeastreference.org.uk/iraqweaponsc.html#cexist)
up to 360 tonnes of bulk chemical warfare agent, including 1.5 tonnes of VX nerve agent

"1,000 tons of mustard gas"
etc, etc
And how could the Americans seal the Syrian border before the war started? I thought Syria wasn't down with that shit.
Seeing the US for 13 years held sway over Iraqi airspace and flew rconnaissance flights everyday , and not to mention the sattellites coverage , but here is a complete history of US air opeartions over Iraq :
U.S. Bombing Watch: Archive of U.S. Bombings, Invasions and Occupations of Iraq (http://www.ccmep.org/usbombingwatch/2003.htm)
I would venture to say any mass Iraqi transportation of its considerable , as claimed by the US , WMD stockpile would not of gone unnoticed by US intelligence in the sky .
You know, from listening to you argue, I'm almost beginning to wonder if there actually weren't any WMD after all.

Geoff
The way you chop and change your views that wouldnt surprise me in the least .

Buffalo Roam

05-05-06, 09:22 PM

Brian Foley

05-05-06, 10:44 PM

Again BF yes there were thousands of ton of shells but you don't fill them till just before there use is required, do you have any idea of how much of a problem the storage of live BIO, and Chemical weapons is, even the smallest leak or accident can cause havoc in the host country, let alone if your ammo depot is hit by enemy would you want live stock piles around to be targeted, no the chemical and BIO's are mixed just before thay are loaded into the shells or deployment systems,
Im sorry did this link I left for you to read go over your head ?
Special Report : Iraq's weapons of mass destruction (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/iraq/53125.stm)
Biological Weapons
UNSCOM has discovered that Iraq produced 19,000 litres of botulinum, 8,400 litres of anthrax, 2,000 litres of aflatoxin and clostridium.
Chemical Weapons
* 38,537 filled and empty chemical munitions
* 480,00 tonnes of live chemical weapons agent
* more than 3,000 tonnes of precursor chemicals
* several hundred pieces of chemical weapons production equipment and related analytical instruments.
That is live chemical stocks see the words " 480,00 tonnes of live chemical weapons agent "
as I now know from your posts you know nothing of military protical, deployment, and tactics to make a informed arguement, because you have never been in the military and I doubt you could even qualify.
And you are the ultimate living realization of the terms canon fodder and expendability . I am sorry to inform you but your career in the military was a complete and utter waste of your time and the taxpayers money .

GeoffP

05-05-06, 10:53 PM

Seeing the US for 13 years held sway over Iraqi airspace and flew rconnaissance flights everyday , and not to mention the sattellites coverage , but here is a complete history of US air opeartions over Iraq :

Why would the Americans think to train their sats on the Iraqi-Syrian border? It's not a nuclear site, not a nuclear weapons station. What evidence do we have that the Americans were watching it with sats, or air recon? I tried your link: didn't work. Twice.

I would venture to say any mass Iraqi transportation of its considerable , as claimed by the US , WMD stockpile would not of gone unnoticed by US intelligence in the sky .

You'd venture to say? Well, that fills me with total ambivalence. But by all means, speculate away.

The way you chop and change your views that wouldnt surprise me in the least .

Aww, wassa matta? Can't argue a point? :rolleyes:

Geoff

Brian Foley

05-05-06, 11:43 PM

Why would the Americans think to train their sats on the Iraqi-Syrian border?
Their sattellites cover the entire nation , and not to mention close ground reconnaissance and UN inspections teams on the ground . Any mass transportaion of WMD to Syria would of easily been picked up and monitored .
It's not a nuclear site, not a nuclear weapons station. What evidence do we have that the Americans were watching it with sats, or air recon?
What evidence do you have that Syria and Russia became depositories of Iraqi WMD .
I tried your link: didn't work. Twice.
TRANSLATION : These work fine , both links are current and easily accessible , test them please and evidence Geoffs up front lying in progress . His behaviour is explained by the reason that these links clearly crush his debate so he is once again playing ignorance , I can take it now I have won this debate .
Aww, wassa matta? Can't argue a point? :rolleyes:

Geoff
I have just once again drilled you and your argument into the ground dont bother answering if you dont have any substantial evidence to bring to the debate .
Goodnight from sunny Brisbane :)

The Devil Inside

05-06-06, 03:16 AM

And you are the ultimate living realization of the terms canon fodder and expendability . I am sorry to inform you but your career in the military was a complete and utter waste of your time and the taxpayers money .

how DARE you judge the validity of someone else's life. this man (who cares what country he is from) WILLINGLY joined the military to protect the country he loves. thats more than sitting in the comfort of his house, writing about invisible boogeymen wherever he sees an american or an israeli.

whether i agree or disagree with him, i will be reporting your post for being excessively inflammatory without provocation.

you are sick. :mad:

duendy

05-06-06, 07:24 AM

how DARE you judge the validity of someone else's life. this man (who cares what country he is from) WILLINGLY joined the military to protect the country he loves. thats more than sitting in the comfort of his house, writing about invisible boogeymen wherever he sees an american or an israeli.

whether i agree or disagree with him, i will be reporting your post for being excessively inflammatory without provocation.

you are sick. :mad:
ohhhh my MY. such a show of righteous indignation or WHAT?
errrrm, is i imagining it or didn't i just get a reply from you at another thread where you say you do NOT believe the government's story about 911....???

YET, you would FIGHT in their wars...?! and back up other dupes to do too?????????????!!!

spuriousmonkey

05-06-06, 07:53 AM

how DARE you judge the validity of someone else's life. this man (who cares what country he is from) WILLINGLY joined the military to protect the country he loves.

to protect the business interests of the country he loves you mean.

Buffalo Roam

05-06-06, 09:04 AM

BF, do you know anything about logistics, it dosn't take that much to move 480,000 ton of any thing today, One fair sized cargo ship can move that much in one load, and if these chemical were palletised, 250 trucks could move this in a week, and useing any sense you move you trurucks in groups of two's and three's so you don't attract attention to yourselves, plus the Iraq's and the Russian's know the scheduals of avalibility of satalite observation reconance times just as well as we do. The other fact is they didn't have to move this all at once there was a large window of time to accomplish the move, also remember the distance of the moves were very short, you liveing in Australia like American don't have a sence for the short distances involved in the rest of the world.

The Devil Inside

05-06-06, 10:23 AM

ohhhh my MY. such a show of righteous indignation or WHAT?
errrrm, is i imagining it or didn't i just get a reply from you at another thread where you say you do NOT believe the government's story about 911....???

YET, you would FIGHT in their wars...?! and back up other dupes to do too?????????????!!!

this has nothing to do with 9/11, duendy. stop using your usual tactics of misdirection and red herrings.

and yes, if the american military were to come to europe and ask me to fight for them, i would. obviously you have no sense of duty to the people that pave your roads, or fund your schools, or countless other things the government does for you.

it comes with a cost.

The Devil Inside

05-06-06, 10:24 AM

to protect the business interests of the country he loves you mean.

believe it or not, america wasnt always a terrible place to be from.

how do we know buffalo isnt 70 years old? we have no idea. correct me if i am wrong.

s0meguy

05-06-06, 12:35 PM

duendy

05-06-06, 01:42 PM

this has nothing to do with 9/11, duendy. stop using your usual tactics of misdirection and red herrings.

and yes, if the american military were to come to europe and ask me to fight for them, i would. obviously you have no sense of duty to the people that pave your roads, or fund your schools, or countless other things the government does for you.

it comes with a cost.
you are a walking/sitting contradiction!

thedevilsreject

05-06-06, 02:00 PM

its just a matter of time before this thread gets locked

Brian Foley

05-06-06, 02:55 PM

BF, do you know anything about logistics, it dosn't take that much to move 480,000 ton of any thing today,
i know a lot about logistics , in fact most of my working life has been in manufacturing and logistics . When you speak of moving 480,000 tonees today as not taking that much it is true , but that is under normal circumstances .
One fair sized cargo ship can move that much in one load, and if these chemical were palletised, 250 trucks could move this in a week, and useing any sense you move you trurucks in groups of two's and three's so you don't attract attention to yourselves, plus the Iraq's and the Russian's know the scheduals of avalibility of satalite observation reconance times just as well as we do.
The Persian Gulf was sealed up and patrolled by the US Navy , I would imagine US ground intelligence would of observed a ship being loaded with this ordnance and it would of intercepted by the USN . US intelligence has Iraqi operatives working on the ground as well as satellite coverage and USAF aerial reconnaissance to boot . Moving something of this quantity no matter how secretive they do it , to cover their tracks , some inkling of what was happening would be realised with in US intelligence .
The other fact is they didn't have to move this all at once there was a large window of time to accomplish the move, also remember the distance of the moves were very short, you liveing in Australia like American don't have a sence for the short distances involved in the rest of the world.
Tell me this , with your knowledge of the military , if Russia received these chemical/biological and WMD to hide on behalf of the Iraqi regime what cost would it be to the Russians to store this ordnance and why would Russia foot such a bill ?

Roman

05-06-06, 03:09 PM

obviously you have no sense of duty to the people that pave your roads, or fund your schools, or countless other things the government does for you.

Uh, we pay for all that. Gov't just organizes it.

Buffalo Roam

05-06-06, 04:16 PM

I'm suppose to know the the reason the Russian State choose's to do anything? It was in their self intrest? BF stop and think how much product is transporeted across the city of Brisbaine every day I would bet its close to 500,000 tons, is there any problem in doing so? The shipping weight of a armored division is approxamatly
500,000 tons and we can move that in 3 weeks lock stock and barrel, this is in a democracy, now how much more simple is it in a dictatorship were co-operation is mandatory, Like I have said you don't even have anything neer the knowledge to come close to understanding what you don't know about anything, somebody gave you a diploma, called you educated, and turned you loose and you believed them, but you forgot the next step to being truley educated that is real world expearence.

Brian Foley

05-06-06, 04:31 PM

I'm suppose to know the the reason the Russian State choose's to do anything?
You made the claim that Syria and Russia received Iraqs illicit WMD I didnt , and I am asking you why would Russia do such a thing ? Which is fair enough you have consistently thrown questions at me to answer and I have answered so I expect a reciprocal approach from you .
It was in their self intrest?
Ok why was it in russias self interest what did Russia stand to gain from this action .
BF stop and think how much product is transporeted across the city of Brisbaine every day I would bet its close to 500,000 tons, is there any problem in doing so? The shipping weight of a armored division is approxamatly 500,000 tons and we can move that in 3 weeks lock stock and barrel, this is in a democracy, now how much more simple is it in a dictatorship were co-operation is mandatory,
Yes but thats in a city which is at peace and with its infrastructure intact . Iraqs infrastructure was obliterated , Iraq was crawling with UN weapons inspectoors , Iraqs skies were full of US planes bombing and reconnaissance , as well as the US navy sealing Iraq into an embargoe .
Like I have said you don't even have anything neer the knowledge to come close to understanding what you don't know about anything, somebody gave you a diploma, called you educated, and turned you loose and you believed them, but you forgot the next step to being truley educated that is real world expearence, what you don't know about what you expound on would fill the enclopieda again, you truely are the eigth wounder of the world, with that natural vacume between your ear's and all inside atmospher!
In my working life I have worked in America and Europe in completely different natured jobs . I dont hold any diploma nor any higher education , I have more experience than you could shake a stick at . And I dont need someone who spent his entire working life in one job and that was the military lecturing me about the experiences of life .

Buffalo Roam

05-06-06, 04:51 PM

The Devil Inside, no I'm not 70 years old, (LOL) but I do have a few years on the frame, and Americas still a great place to live, like most countries we have a few problems and have to sorte out the twits, and get thing back in controal, but if you look at what the U.S. hase done for the world we ain't such a bad lot, Wounder were BF great Australia would be if we hadn't come to their rescue in WWII, and then forgave their war debt, were would the rest of the world be today if the U.S. had not forgiven the war debt's and then provided loans, construction reasources, and material? Look at the West German's under the U.S. and were they went and the look at the East Germans, Poland, and other WARSAW pact countries, wich economys would you rather have been under? The U.S. help rebuild, not only its allies, but it rebuilt its enemies Germany, Italy, and Japan, and it probably saved the Russian from defeat by the Germans, the amount of equipment we provided equiped a third of the soviet forces for combat, and we even help the Soviets after the war because we forgave their war debt to, but then we really had no choice.So if you really look at the world today were would it be with out the U.S. be honist.
ps: I know about the devil inside, it was proably why I ended up in the military.

goofyfish

05-06-06, 05:00 PM

Gang, how about we get back to the subject rather than exchanging barbs, or should we close now?

Buffalo Roam

05-06-06, 05:26 PM

BF I'm not Russian, they do thing their own way for their own reasons. And again the road infrastructur was still in place when the move took place . This was before the attack even had begun. And you admit that you have no experance in military matters, you have no idea of what well motivated troops can accomplish, and Spietznas Troop are well motivated, professional personal who will follow orders and accomplish the mission, like any good Soldier! U.S., Aussie, Brit, you really don't have any respect for what these people do or can accomplish do you?

Buffalo Roam

05-06-06, 06:39 PM

BF this information is from Gen. Sada, Saddams Second in Comand of the Air Force, and councle advisor.
SADDAM's WMD's : The Russian - Syrian Connection
Front Page Magazine ^ | Monday, March 20, 2006 | Ben Johnson

When a military man – especially a patriot like Lt. Gen. Thomas McInerney – states Saddam Hussein shipped his WMD stockpiles to Syria before Operation Iraqi Freedom, the media castigate him for overweening fealty to his commander-in-chief. One wonders how they will react when the man making that statement is a former high-ranking official in the Iraqi military, personally called out of retirement by Saddam Hussein...

More (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21722)

Buffalo Roam

05-06-06, 06:57 PM

BF a fair amount of your life has been in logistics, as what a deck hand?

Brian Foley

05-06-06, 09:06 PM

BF this information is from Gen. Sada, Saddams Second in Comand of the Air Force, and councle advisor.
Here is the original article as it appeared in the NY Sun it requires you to sign up not a problem half is avaialable .
Iraq's WMD Secreted in Syria, Sada Says (http://www.nysun.com/article/26514?page_no=1)
You've forgone a few key parts of the story.
Mr. Sada, 65, told the Sun that the pilots of the two airliners that transported the weapons of mass destruction to Syria from Iraq approached him in the middle of 2004, after Saddam was captured by American troops.
He had nothing to do with the supposed transfer - some of his mates told him.
"I know them very well. They are very good friends of mine. We trust each other. We are friends as pilots," Mr. Sada said of the two pilots. He declined to disclose their names, saying they are concerned for their safety.
Anonymous mates , even. Wouldn't the US DoD want a chat with them ?
The pilots told Mr. Sada that two Iraqi Airways Boeings were converted to cargo planes by removing the seats, Mr. Sada said. Then Special Republican Guard brigades loaded materials onto the planes, he said, including "yellow barrels with skull and crossbones on each barrel."
It gets better. These mates of his saw "materials" being loaded, including "barrels with skulls and crossbones". Last time I checked, there are quite a few non-WMD materials that carry said sticker. And I am a qualified handler of dangerous goods as my Job requires I be one .The poison symbol is found on many common chemicals, you probably find it on most of the bottles used in the garden or when cleaning the bathroom. Look at any tanker truck going to a chemical industry, look at insecticides (which they probably had a lot leftovers as US forces between the wars shot down many civilian agricultural aircraft), look at drain cleaners. If it was a weapon, it would be the biohazard symbol. Also, it it was a weapon, the barrels would not be yellow. Do you have any idea of from how far away you can spot even a single yellow barrel from the air?

To recap, someone told a guy who's writing a book that something was put on a plane to Syria. And we should believe it, despite any physical evidence, because the author's former hostage says so. :rolleyes:
BF a fair amount of your life has been in logistics, as what a deck hand?
Yes I understand logistics very well indeed , and i can tell you now that all the figures I gave you previously of Saddams inventory as what America claimed in 2003 prior to the invasion was in excess of +1 million tonnes . To move that amount of volatile ordnance by truck and air transport as well as ships undetected when Iraqs infrastructure was in complete disrepair is simply unbelievable .

Even if they were to palletize this load and transport it by truck to Syria the logistics of it would be beyond that of Iraq . There would have to be hundreds trucks involved , it is simply fantasy .

Buffalo Roam

05-06-06, 10:10 PM

So now we change the parameters of the equasion, and now even you admit there were WMD, 1,000,000 tons?, provide proof of your estamates, you must have a great intellengce network, and you still have not answered the testamony of Gen. Sada, were you at any meeting of the Ruleing Councle of Iraq, what is your real name James Bond? I think it more like Maxwel Smart, and again it was 12 years since the Gulf War, and the infrastructure had been mostly repaired, or we would not have been able to blitz Bagadad lik we did the road network was in good condition. So far all you have ever given is your own personal oppinion wich is worth squat!

Buffalo Roam

05-06-06, 10:14 PM

Hay Goofyfish I'm new to computers how do I link sights, never had anything this fancy in the military, some help please?

Buffalo Roam

05-06-06, 10:24 PM

BF you still havent answered the statement of a man from Saddams inner councle who would know far more than you I have statement from Gen. Sada in interviews that support my posts what do you have?
"To the best of my knowledge, there are still two big bunkers of concrete” in Iraq containing WMDs, although “Saddam flooded them.” Although he says he has revealed the location to American military officials, he fears they may yet fall into the hands of Saddam loyalists or foreign jihadists if the United States withdraws prematurely."

Arkantos

05-06-06, 10:43 PM

lol at the original poster not realizing that if we did not have any war in afghanistant and iraq that the jihadists would still attack us. You would have to be pretty ignorant to not have known.

GeoffP

05-06-06, 10:48 PM

Their sattellites cover the entire nation , and not to mention close ground reconnaissance and UN inspections teams on the ground . Any mass transportaion of WMD to Syria would of easily been picked up and monitored .

?? What are you, the tasking operator for US satellite intel? "Cover the entire nation" - this is hearsay without evidence!

What evidence do you have that Syria and Russia became depositories of Iraqi WMD .

Did I say they did? I'm simply telling you your argument is based on shite, as always.

These work fine , both links are current and easily accessible , test them please and evidence Geoffs up front lying in progress .

?? What debate, you clown? Did I say there were any WMDs at the time of the invasion? Sure, there were at other times, but did I say there were? As usual, you're just slagging in all directions, hoping to punch your way out of the paper bag.

And: again, no, the links don't work for me - also as par for the course from you lately. I check them, they don't work, and now I'm the liar - pathetic.

I have just once again drilled you and your argument into the ground dont bother answering if you dont have any substantial evidence to bring to the debate .

If I don't? Your entire argument is based on sheer speculation: "I would think", "I would expect", "it could be".

Christ, you "could" post some actual evidence but no one's holding their breath for it.

Geoff

GeoffP

05-06-06, 10:56 PM

He had nothing to do with the supposed transfer - some of his mates told him.

That's a ridiculous counter-argument, even for you: what exactly is it supposed to prove? All it indicates is that the Sun couldn't get an interview with his mates.

Anonymous mates , even. Wouldn't the US DoD want a chat with them ?

Where does it say they haven't? And why do you think the guy would just give their names to a reporter?

Christ, dumb.

It gets better. These mates of his saw "materials" being loaded, including "barrels with skulls and crossbones". Last time I checked, there are quite a few non-WMD materials that carry said sticker. And I am a qualified handler of dangerous goods as my Job requires I be one .

"Qualified", LOL.

probably had a lot leftovers

Speculation.

If it was a weapon, it would be the biohazard symbol. Also, it it was a weapon, the barrels would not be yellow. Do you have any idea of from how far away you can spot even a single yellow barrel from the air?

It's a shell, not a tank, you git.

Yes I understand logistics very well indeed , and i can tell you now that all the figures I gave you previously of Saddams inventory as what America claimed in 2003 prior to the invasion was in excess of +1 million tonnes .

Oh - so he would have to have moved all of it, right? He couldn't move a fraction and throw the rest away - especially seeing as how all the containers would be welded together in some kind of massive block of drums. Ridiculous.

Even if they were to palletize this load and transport it by truck to Syria the logistics of it would be beyond that of Iraq . There would have to be hundreds trucks involved , it is simply fantasy .

Oh? All the Syrian trucks broken too, I suppose.

You're not helping, Foley. There are holes in your 'evidence' you could drive a couple hundred trucks with chemical weapons through. As usual, you're just embarrassing yourself - and me, for having to read your garbage.

Geoff

GeoffP

05-06-06, 10:59 PM

Ok why was it in russias self interest what did Russia stand to gain from this action .

Why would Russia lose nukes and sell them on the black market? Because they're so incredibly well-organized and controlled these days, you know.

God, listening to Foley is making me believe it could be possible. Will you please get off of the left?

Geoff

Brian Foley

05-07-06, 12:41 AM

So now we change the parameters of the equasion, and now even you admit there were WMD, 1,000,000 tons?
As far as I am concerned all of Iraqs WMD was destroyed by 1998
The inspector's final report (http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1160609,00.html)
When chief weapons inspector David Kay bluntly told the senate there were, in fact, no WMDs, he forced a humiliating U-turn in Washington and London.
Your claim on this thread is that Iraq had WMD and transhipped them to Syria ande Russia and I am arguing from that point of view , that if there was WMD in Iraq that as you claim were moved to Syria and Russia then how did Iraq accomplish such a feat .
provide proof of your estamates, you must have a great intellengce network,
I gave you on page 3 of this debate the source which is the US estimates of what Iraq had in WMD prior to the 2003 invasion . And if you read them you would of seen that these estimates went above 1 million tonnes .
Special Report : Iraq's weapons of mass destruction (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_report/iraq/53125.stm)
So according to America Iraq had 1+ million tonnes of WMD to dispose of , and I am asking you how they did it .
and you still have not answered the testamony of Gen. Sada, were you at any meeting of the Ruleing Councle of Iraq, what is your real name James Bond?
What testimony I went to the original source of that link you provided and it was a book this person had written and it was an interview he gave . I went over it and concluded that he provided no solid evidence other than his own words , backed by bo one else .
I think it more like Maxwel Smart, and again it was 12 years since the Gulf War, and the infrastructure had been mostly repaired,
Funny according to your very own Bechtel National, Inc. June 2003 report Iraqs roading and bridging had remained unrepaired and would wholly inadequate for such a movement of WMD as you claim .

Iraq Infrastructure Reconstruction Program Assessment Report Executive Summary (http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:vVnE3hdfHPkJ:www.usaid.gov/iraq/contracts/pdf/iirii_rfp031002attach11.pdf+Iraq%27s+roading+bridg ing+infrastructure+destroyed&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=2&client=firefox-a)
The Iraqi road and bridge network is incomplete, even along major national highways. Military conflict, neglect, and substandard construction have caused further deterioration of the network. The lack of viable transport alternatives has caused traffic to continue on structures that are damaged or, in some cases, in imminent danger of collapse. Those structures were the focus of Bechtel’s assessment efforts.
or we would not have been able to blitz Bagadad lik we did the road network was in good condition. So far all you have ever given is your own personal oppinion wich is worth squat!
The US army had tanks that are designed to operate off road as well as helicopters and aircraft to overcome logistical obstacles .
BF you still havent answered the statement of a man from Saddams inner councle who would know far more than you I have statement from Gen. Sada in interviews that support my posts what do you have?
No when I read the interview I ah , came to the conclusion the guy was an utter idiot .
"To the best of my knowledge, there are still two big bunkers of concrete” in Iraq containing WMDs, although “Saddam flooded them.” Although he says he has revealed the location to American military officials, he fears they may yet fall into the hands of Saddam loyalists or foreign jihadists if the United States withdraws prematurely."
And in the 3 years since under US occupation America has not bothered to open up these sites and display to the World that yes indeed Iraq did have WMD and here is the evidence . Why hasnt America done this yet ? It hasnt because this General Sada must be a some form of psychiatric medication that makes him speak of wonderful hidden troves of WMD . They are figment of his imagination Buffalo and if I were you I wouldny push his case .
lol at the original poster not realizing that if we did not have any war in afghanistant and iraq that the jihadists would still attack us. You would have to be pretty ignorant to not have known.
The jihaddist are only attacking America because the US attacked them first .
?? What are you, the tasking operator for US satellite intel? "Cover the entire nation" - this is hearsay without evidence!
Commercial Satellites Track Suspected WMD Facilities (http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2002/020813-iraq4.htm)
Did I say they did? I'm simply telling you your argument is based on shite, as always.
well this is what you wrote :
??? Weren't the weapons supposed to have been moved before the war even started? How could the Americans have sealed anything? Syria wasn't even co-operating with the blockade, was it?
So what evidence do you have ?
?? What debate, you clown? Did I say there were any WMDs at the time of the invasion? Sure, there were at other times, but did I say there were? As usual, you're just slagging in all directions, hoping to punch your way out of the paper bag.
Those links I provided , which you now falsely claim dont work , are for prior the 2003 invasion and if according to you these WMD were moved out of Iraq then I expect some reason from you as to how .
And: again, no, the links don't work for me - also as par for the course from you lately. I check them, they don't work, and now I'm the liar - pathetic.
Well they keep working for me and the 2 other posters on here who have accessed those links and argued points with me . I have to say you possess a very immature personality Geoff especially for someone who claims to be an educator in a university .
If I don't? Your entire argument is based on sheer speculation: "I would think", "I would expect", "it could be". Christ, you "could" post some actual evidence but no one's holding their breath for it.
No its not I have provided several sources from western sites to back up my arguments , the only speculation here is from you and others here who insist that Iraq transhipped all of it WMD to Russia and Syria . I say it is complete and utter bullshit as of 1198 Iraq had no WMD left as the UNSCOm destroted them .
That's a ridiculous counter-argument, even for you: what exactly is it supposed to prove? All it indicates is that the Sun couldn't get an interview with his mates.
Where does it say they haven't? And why do you think the guy would just give their names to a reporter?
Christ, dumb.
"Qualified", LOL.
Speculation.
Unbelievable you are actually defending this clown General Sada I never heard of him until Buffalo roam introduced him . When I did a bit of research I came up with this I saw straight away what this was an unfounded , baseless account . I suppose you believe him when he said that they flew these WMD out of Iraq and organised road convoys enmasse to Syria to have them buried ! Or the better one Saddam building 2 massive undergroud complexs to store them and flooding them . ROFL .
It's a shell, not a tank, you git.
No they were drums of chemicals .
Oh - so he would have to have moved all of it, right? He couldn't move a fraction and throw the rest away - especially seeing as how all the containers would be welded together in some kind of massive block of drums. Ridiculous.
OK so you are now claiming only part of Iraqs WMD were moved the rest was destroyed !
Oh? All the Syrian trucks broken too, I suppose.
So Syrian trucks were now involved in this transhipment . So I prove that due to Iraqs dilapidated infrastructure resulting in most of its transport fleet klies idle the story now gets bumped up to Syria was the culprit providing the lift capacity .
You're not helping, Foley. There are holes in your 'evidence' you could drive a couple hundred trucks with chemical weapons through. As usual, you're just embarrassing yourself - and me, for having to read your garbage.
No Geoff your whole debate has see-sawed , and like here its just Swiss cheese , all you are doing is modifying by supposition as I progress through this debate you havent offered any data to counter mine .
Why would Russia lose nukes and sell them on the black market? Because they're so incredibly well-organized and controlled these days, you know.
What would Russia gain from storing highly lethal chemical and biological WMD from Iraq ?

Neildo

05-07-06, 01:27 AM

To recap, someone told a guy who's writing a book that something was put on a plane to Syria. And we should believe it, despite any physical evidence, because the author's former hostage says so.

Not to mention this whole theory of moving WMDs from Iraq to Syria first started with a 16 year old webmaster, Ryan Mauro, who was then hired onto a North American think-tank at that young age, who, when this story became popular, was also selling a book about it. ;)

His connections are about as accurate as The DaVinci Code. Pure speculation using real life events to try and connect the dots with no proof to back it up. I mean it does make for a cool story. I mean how uber 1337 is it to have Russian Spetznas smuggling the weapons from Iraq into Syria past U.S. forces and surveillance?

To use the annoying Occam's Razor, what's more likely; Iraqi WMDs being disarmed through the years by U.N. inspectors and no more being found due to them no longer existing, or some conspiracy theory involving multiple countries to ship off WMDs involving elite Russian Spetznas forces from Iraq into Syria past heavy U.S. surveillance that hangs all on the words of two Iraqi pilots who told their Iraqi general buddy?

Keep praying for more little tidbits of info in hope of there being WMDs found to make it sound as if our corrupt adminstration was correct to keep fueling this whole sham of a War on Terror, err, I mean Iraq. Sorry, I keep forgetting that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 with all the BS this adminstration spews all the time trying to fool everyone. It seems it works on some of you here.

You're not helping, Foley. There are holes in your 'evidence' you could drive a couple hundred trucks with chemical weapons through. As usual, you're just embarrassing yourself - and me, for having to read your garbage.

There's holes in his evidence? Heh, you guys are the ones making the claim that Saddam moved his WMDs to Syria, yet there's no proof of it. Darn Sciforum people forgot all about burden of proof.

And yes, having all of Saddam's WMDs shipped off to Syria in convoys is highly unlikely considering the daily patrols, No Fly Zones, men on the ground, satellites, and other intellegence going on while prepping for the war, even though yes, those WMDs were supposedly shipped "before" the war. As if all our surveillance on Iraq didn't exist before the war.. :rolleyes:

If I don't? Your entire argument is based on sheer speculation: "I would think", "I would expect", "it could be".

Oh yeah, this coming from a guy that blindly believes that Iraq had WMDs, was three months from building a nuke, and Iran in the process of building nukes as well, despite there being no proof of it. :rolleyes:

Remember, guys, burden of proof, if ya even know what that means.

- N

thedevilsreject

05-07-06, 05:00 AM

Hay Goofyfish I'm new to computers how do I link sights, never had anything this fancy in the military, some help please?

lol if you are being serious do this [url ]link[/url ] but take out the spaces

Buffalo Roam

05-07-06, 07:54 AM

Yes Devil, I'm being serious, when I graduated, college my computer was a slide rule, and when I was in service our computers were mechanical, I first got a computer last Feb. my son told me it would make my reasearch vastly easier, with Google he was right, this is like haveing the library of the word event at my finger tips, I'm behind the learning curve right now but I'm catching up fast, I have a idea of why Goofyfish may be doing his edits but these are facts from people at the source, first hand knowledge of how and why thing were done. Hay Goofy can you give me a little slack, I'm learning how to use thus thing as fast as I can.

Buffalo Roam

05-07-06, 08:14 AM

AS for you BF, you always are saying what can't be done, well I'm from a different school of thought, I believe in what can be done, I retired from service at 39, over half my life in service was as a platoon sergeant, I was responsable for 5,500,000$ of equipment, 45 men, 3 tanks, 5 scout vechiles, 1 motar section, 1 infantry section, I graduated from master Gunner School, NBR school, CBR school, Primary, Junior,and Senior NCO academies, Part of my responsabilities were to have my platoon ready to deploy any were in world, as a or part of a, Platoon, Troop, Squardron, Brigade, or Division, I have expearence moveing heavy equipment by Rail, Ship, Air, I have moved on RORO, US and European rail systems, C-130, C-117, C-5, and when nessary by self deployment, (that means we drove it our selves), what is the biggest deployment that you were ever part of?

Buffalo Roam

05-07-06, 07:34 PM

Goofy keeps editing, my information so go to Google and search (WMD Gen. Georges Sada Gen. Ali Ibrahim al tikriti) there is now another high ranking Iraqi official confermining Gen. Sada information Ali Ibrahim al-Tikriti, Armed Forces Chief of Staff, captured 5/12/03,
BF you can deny these sights all you want but they are there and they are valid! This isn't just my opinion, these are news stories.

Buffalo Roam

05-07-06, 09:00 PM

Syrian Dam Collapses, 4, June, 200s, this sight conferms the date of Gen. Sada story, and it comes from the BBC, Google, ( Syrian Bam Collpses 4 june 2002 Iraq Aid Relief)
slowly but surely the information is checking out.

Neildo

05-07-06, 11:14 PM

[yawn]

http://www.radionetherlands.nl/currentaffairs/region/northamerica/us030409.html

"Clearly Iraq could have hidden something, we know that Iraq tried to hide things from us in the past, but this 5 to 10 percent of unaccounted-for material doesn't mean that Iraq didn't account for it, it means that we can't verify the Iraqi accounting. Iraq claims to have destroyed everything, they just can't prove that they destroyed everything. We can prove that 90 to 95 percent were accounted for."

"But let's talk about that missing material. In the field of biological materials, anthrax. Iraq produced anthrax in liquid bulk form, it has a shelf life of three years under ideal storage conditions, the last known batch came out in 1991. I might be a simple marine, not able to do adequate mathematics, but I think 1991 plus three gives you 1994. What anthrax does Iraq have? None of the anthrax they produced prior to 1991 can be viable today, it simply can't be."

"The nerve agent sarin: there's talk of 1000 tonnes of Iraqi nerve agent unaccounted for, because there's 6500 munitions that we can't account for dating from 1983 to 88. The problem is, that even if Iraq tried to hide that stuff, it can't be viable today because that nerve agent has a shelf-life of five years. So even though we can't give a final disposition of that 5 to 10 per cent that's unaccounted for, I can tell you this; regardless of what happened to it, it's not worth anything today, it can't hurt anyone. So I come back to the basic question: what weapons of mass destruction?" - Scott Ritter, U.N. Weapons Inspector

Radio interview is also on that site if you wish to hear it.

- N

Neildo

05-08-06, 01:15 AM

You know, Buffalo Roam, Atlantis is lost, sunken beneath the waters of the ocean as well. I guess we won't be able to find out if the Atlantean Deathray ever existed. I guess we'll just have to take the word of Greek writers whom say so and just leave it at that. ;)

- N

TheVisitor

05-08-06, 05:22 AM

Could you for the sake of my interest elaborate on your theory , you have presented a rather murky appraisal . Why isnt America demanding Syria hand over these WMD ? Seriously the US threatened force on Syria over Lebanon and Syria got out quick , so a similar demand from America would produce these WMD . The fact is they do not exist these much vaunted Iraqi WMD .

In the comparative analysis of various U.S. defense programs and plans, the Department of Defense carefully organizes regional and global military balances.
The Former USSR is foremost in an advanced level strategy that includes current developments in Russia and other states of the former Soviet Union as they bear on issues of national and international security.

Analysis of internal developments related to military power and policy, and of evolving international policies, with strategic treaties on space warfare, the development of space threats to the United States and its allies, the historical and future role of space assets in terrestrial warfare, all play a part in the national security policies, programs, and military doctrines of the United States.

Information warfare capabilities are shaping the development of American military doctrine and force structure, replacing more traditional military capabilities such as conventional and nuclear forces as a theater of military operations.
The impact of international law and treaties on civilian and military applications of information and space technology will be increasingly blurred in the future.
Terrorism as a strategy to achieve political ends cannot be tolerated in liberal societies, and America's foreign and defense policy must reflect their ability to defend themselves by utilizing counterterrorism strategies.

Buffalo Roam

05-08-06, 07:07 AM

Nieldo, I'm dealing in factual news stories, another Gen. Ali Ibrahim al- Tikriti, the former Iraqi Armed Forces Chief of Staff, captured 5/12/03, has confermed Gen. Sada information, I don't live in your world of Alantas or what ever dimension of reality your mind reside's in if you have factual information please present it rather than your LSD dream.

TheVisitor

05-08-06, 07:58 AM

Don't know about any dream...
My post was a carefully altered semi- offical department of defence release by a course on DOD procedures at Missouri state tech.
So......Buffy, maybe you all just better learn an old song called "Duck and Cover".

Buffalo Roam

05-08-06, 08:09 AM

Hay Visitor didn't know I responded to your post, what you smokin, or do you also operate as Neildo too?

TheVisitor

05-08-06, 08:21 AM

Hay Visitor didn't know I responded to your post, what you smokin, or do you also operate as Neildo too?
Never heard of him, it just took at lot of time to compile that much ...
:cool:

Buffalo Roam

05-08-06, 08:25 AM

Your information did intrest me, Nidlo was the post just before your post didn't you see it?

Buffalo Roam

05-08-06, 08:32 AM

Yes I know what it like to do the reasearch an then have a reply that ignores it. Most of the people here opperate on their opinion, and don't do the research to know what their talking about.

TheVisitor

05-08-06, 09:53 AM

I would like to make this available to our Iranian friends out there in the interest of international cooperation, world peace and ......all together now - a group hug please.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGibj8e20y0&search=civil%20defense%20nuclear%20fallout%20Gene% 20Hackman%20conelrad%20atomic%20homeland%20securit y%20FEMA
"What are you supposed to do when you see the flash"..?

Buffalo Roam

05-08-06, 12:08 PM

Hay I think we have figured it out with a little help from my son, here's sevral of the sites that show the information of were the WMD went,
http://rayrobison.typepad.com/ray_robison/saddam_and_alqaeda/index.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/keyword?k=sada
http://www.stuffiveheard.com/archives/iraq/
Check these sites out and then explain the information.

spidergoat

05-08-06, 12:49 PM

HANNITY: You know for a fact he moved these weapons to Syria?

SADA: Yes.

HANNITY: How do you know that?

SADA: I know it because I have got the captains of the Iraqi airway that were my friends, and they told me these weapons of mass destruction had been moved to Syria.

General Georges Hormiz Sada happens to also be an evangelical Christian who thinks Iraq is historically a Christian nation rather than Muslim. He learned to fly in Texas in the 60's. Sada’s book is published by Integrity Publishers, a Christian publishing and recording firm that operates out of Tennessee, and was co-written by Jim Nelson Black, a Charles Colson associate and stalwart of conservative outfits such as the Heritage Foundation and Accuracy in Media. (http://blogs.salon.com/0003494/2006/01/31.html)(Just so you know where he's coming from) He talks to Hannity, a rabid right-wing storyteller, and his evidence is that a friend told him.

My opinion? He doesn't seem like a credible source, and his "evidence" is heresay.

thedevilsreject

05-08-06, 12:53 PM

this is very interesting

Buffalo Roam

05-08-06, 02:05 PM

And what about Gen. Ali Ibrahim al- Tikriti? he would be no friend of the U.S, and as usual you have not reasearch the information and you use a interview on a talk show as your proof that this isn't credible? whats wrong with this picture?
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21489

http://www.stuffiveheard.com/archives/iraq/ These sources are not consertive in nature these are liberal news outlets.

Neildo

05-08-06, 02:51 PM

My opinion? He doesn't seem like a credible source, and his "evidence" is heresay.

Yeah, I know. That Sada guy is a joke.

And what about Gen. Ali Ibrahim al- Tikriti? he would be no friend of the U.S, and as usual you have not reasearch the information and you use a interview on a talk show as your proof that this isn't credible? whats wrong with this picture?

What, is that the guy saying Saddam flooded his bunkers so we can't find em? Even if true, as I stated in my previous posts:

http://www.radionetherlands.nl/curr...a/us030409.html

"Clearly Iraq could have hidden something, we know that Iraq tried to hide things from us in the past, but this 5 to 10 percent of unaccounted-for material doesn't mean that Iraq didn't account for it, it means that we can't verify the Iraqi accounting. Iraq claims to have destroyed everything, they just can't prove that they destroyed everything. We can prove that 90 to 95 percent were accounted for."

"But let's talk about that missing material. In the field of biological materials, anthrax. Iraq produced anthrax in liquid bulk form, it has a shelf life of three years under ideal storage conditions, the last known batch came out in 1991. I might be a simple marine, not able to do adequate mathematics, but I think 1991 plus three gives you 1994. What anthrax does Iraq have? None of the anthrax they produced prior to 1991 can be viable today, it simply can't be."

"The nerve agent sarin: there's talk of 1000 tonnes of Iraqi nerve agent unaccounted for, because there's 6500 munitions that we can't account for dating from 1983 to 88. The problem is, that even if Iraq tried to hide that stuff, it can't be viable today because that nerve agent has a shelf-life of five years. So even though we can't give a final disposition of that 5 to 10 per cent that's unaccounted for, I can tell you this; regardless of what happened to it, it's not worth anything today, it can't hurt anyone. So I come back to the basic question: what weapons of mass destruction?" - Scott Ritter, U.N. Weapons Inspector

It don't matter cause even if those chemicals existed, they've been spoiled and rendered useless for 12 years!

But hey, if you wanna take 3rd hand knowledge of Sada talking to his friends or some Tikriti general saying the WMDs are in a flooded bunker lost like the Atlantean Deathray, then go ahead. How typical. We can't find the WMDs cause they're lost forever but you'll just have to take our word for it. Mmhmm..

Yes I know what it like to do the reasearch an then have a reply that ignores it. Most of the people here opperate on their opinion, and don't do the research to know what their talking about.

Yeah, I know whatcha mean. Glad to see you ignoring information presented to you which you have no rebuttal for. I'll take the word of a top U.N. Inspector over some corrupt, Christian Iraqi general who's buddy told em Iraq moved WMDs to Syria, lol. Oh yeah, not to mention that story was also cooked up by a 16 year old working for a North American think tank. Lots of credibility there, buddy.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21489

Frontpage Interview’s guest today is Ryan Mauro, who spoke at the recent 2006 International Intelligence Summit on
Iraq. He is the 19-year old author of Death to America: The Unreported Battle of Iraq and founder of WorldThreats.com. He was originally hired at age 16 as a geopo