I'm probably not right on some of the details, since I'm not all to well informed, but I have a question.

On the news they had a program about poverty in the US, how people in Ohio and in other places can barely afford food if at all and everything. I know There are other places in the US like that, my dad grew up in poverty and they didn't even have plumbing or a roof at times, and i know in major cities there are still homeless and all that.

Today in class we got off in a side conversation and someone mentioned that we give several billion to a trillion dollars every year to the Jewish State of Israel (is that right?) and some countries in the Middle East, along with others i know, i just don't know all of the details.

Well, my question is, with all of the problems we have in the US, poverty/hunger/homelessness along with all the other problems we have, including being able to develop new technologies, why don't we help ourselves instead of giving these huge amounts of money away? It seems for the most part our efforts aren't even recognized. I rarely hear it brought up, if ever...today was when i found out about those huge sums of money we're giving to the Jewish State and the Middle East. Don't we also have an enormous national debt we have to repay or something? Like billions and trillions or something? Just seems like we should take care of ourselves first...if they can't make it alone, and we need to give them all of this support maybe they shouldnt be independant after all. Just like if a kid leaves home but can't make it on his own, instead of constantly borrowing money from the parents, he should move back in, get himself squared away and then become independant...because if you need to borrow, then you're not independant.

Anyway, sorry if I have facts wrong, but can anyone explain this to me? It really doesn't make much sense to me.

Thanks.

the funniest part is Israel is the 16th richest nation in the world, and has just asked for another $12 billion in aid from the US.

Originally posted by Grey Seal
I'm probably not right on some of the details, since I'm not all to well informed, but I have a question.

Anyway, sorry if I have facts wrong, but can anyone explain this to me? It really doesn't make much sense to me.

Thanks. A very important thread, you are actually putting members of sciforums at a challenging test. I sincerely hope that this community will react effectively to your questions as their forthcoming interventions will say a lot about themselves.

Without checking the decimal digits on those figures, as I will be checking them soon. I really think that it is not far from the truth, even though the annual expenditures on military armament and galactic research is not included, ….if you did, it would be horrendous!

Now, 2/3 of our US economy is consumer dependent, in some European countries is between 35% and 55%. It is strictly capital driven and like a Vampire could never suck enough from its own resources, thus, since over 80 years we have developed our capital power on foreign interests. Even though we are geographically isolated and in principal we could have self-sustain our needs, it was never done.

Economics will prove to you that if you depend on foreign exercises to set you worth, it is imperative to self-survive by investing in controlling foreign influences. It sounds simple right?

Well the problems is that in the process of controlling foreign influences a country may be so involved and get so deep in social-political divagations, that it can get to a point of not returning back. We touched that point son after First World War.

Also, the financial support to Israel or any other “special interest” nation, it is done not completely by the government that you elected, but by the irreversible forces within.

If the Financial elite in US was not so heavily populated by Jews, do you think that would invest so much on Israel while we still due millions to the UN??

A complex topic, but we should soon get some light in the subject!

Originally posted by Grey Seal
regarding what you said micro, im not too up with politics (obviously) but it was only over the past year or so that i started realizing how much politics really drove things. ..... but im slowly learning ;) We should be lucky that in our time of age, it is a lot easier to get informed. By that I mean that when we really want to get closer to the facts, we have many news papers, news broadcasters and the universal real-time encyclopedia called “Internet”.

If something doesn’t make sense to me, or if I want to get several different reports over one particular issue, I collect as much as information as possible sensitive from the origins and plot all items, thoughts or specifics that in either of the sources was covered.

Thus, where they all meet, is were the truth lays.

I personally love history and dislike politics very much, however the actions I take or not taken in turning the blind-eye to the wrong, is something that forces me to get involved in many ways. I feel morally responsible as a human being should feel.

Grey Seal has started a valuable tread, but unfortunately I’m getting the feeling that as simple as it is, is probably beyond many of our sciforums members. I hope that I’m wrong.
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by RichardJA
the funniest part is Israel is the 16th richest nation in the world, and has just asked for another $12 billion in aid from the US.

They get a little over $3 billion. $12 billion is the size of the ENTIRE foreign aid bill.

actually Israel has request 4 billion in direct aid, and 8 billion in loans. So essential, they want 12 billion from the US

Why do you equate a loan with a 100% aid dollar? Presumably, they repay their loans. The value of that portion of their aid would only be the difference between the interest the U.S. charges and the interest they would have to pay on the open market. That's got to be a small percentage of the total $8 billion.

Grey Seal - The U.S. doesn’t give money away for nothing, but for concessions or payment in kind. The Jewish community in the U.S. is active in politics. The aid to Israel is in return for political support among other things.

Politics in a democracy is for the greater good in a subtle way. This is realized when the standard of living improves. Microzoft makes an excellent suggestion about finding where the truth lies. Read a lot and between the lines.

Americans of sound mind and body can afford food and shelter if they work. There are charities who will beseech you to believe otherwise so you’ll give them money, much of which they keep for themselves. There are politicians who will implore you to believe otherwise so you will vote for them. In the 1700s some were rich but nobody had plumbing. If your dad sometimes didn’t have a roof then they had better things to spend their money or time on, no offense. When my grandfather lost his job he moved his house to a better economy, log by log.

Why do you equate a loan with a 100% aid dollar?
Israel takes out loans from third parties saying, "If we don't pay you back the US guarantees to pay you." So, the US has to tie that money up in case this happens. This means money that could be used for other things isn't available anymore. It's out of the economy. And one of the things that money could be used for is making more money. This is a "cost".

Fair enough, Israel has never defaulted on a loan but the US has a track record of giving Israel more money to make sure that it doesn't. It gives Israel guarantees to take out loans and then gives them money to help them repay those loans or, at the very least, to encourage them to do so.

Israel has to be "nice" to the US to get this assistance but only to a point. Israel could default - or treaten to default - on its loans, not only for financial reasons (its economy is a shambles) but also for political. In this respect, loan guarantees put the US under Israel's thumb more than vice versa. For one thing, the US would find it very difficult to reduce aid to Israel, or to refuse more aid, even under pressure to do do. So, loan guarantees guarantee future aid.

And, however you look at it, loan guarantees put Israel and the US firmly in each others' political pockets.

As for "aid," don't forget that the US doesn't actually have the money it gives to Israel. It has to borrow it, and pay interest, etc. etc. The US ends up paying much more than it gives.

America does neighborly things too, like help out after a hurricane. But if they later want to use that country’s airstrips for something, say, and are refused, then it’s implied that help for future disasters may not be so forthcoming. Nothing wrong in that. All nations do likewise.

The bad stuff you hear from other countries about the U.S. has much to do with Bush, who’s seen as a warmonger and hostile to human rights. His works overshadow the good works. If you help the neighbor on your left while beating the one on your right, the neighborhood will know you as a thug.

Originally posted by zanket
America does neighborly things too, like help out after a hurricane....
....The bad stuff you hear from other countries about the U.S. has much to do with Bush,

No comments! ...if you do have a watch, you're lucky. ...read.

USH AIDS "CZAR" MUST STEP DOWN !
by Jeanne S. 1:16pm Tue Jun 26 '01 (Modified on 5:56pm Tue Jun 26 '01)


Bush andministration's AIDS "official" makes serious gaffe concerning AIDS and Africa.

It was reported on NPR that a high level Bush official stated that, "AIDS drugs would not benefit most Africans because they don't have watches and do not or cannot adhere to western standards of time". The statement refers to the fact that AIDS drugs have to be taken regularly at set times. Many AIDS activists were very troubled by these statements and are questioning the level of commitment the Bush administration will have towards AIDS, especially in Africa.

Originally posted by RichardJA
actually Israel has request 4 billion in direct aid, and 8 billion in loans. So essential, they want 12 billion from the US

Look at the Foreign Ops bill, they GET a little over $3 billion. A loan guarantee is NOT giving them money; it merely allows Israel to borrow on the open market at a lower interest rate. Israel, btw, has never defaulted on a loan.

No, the U.S. does not have to tie up money to cover any Israeli loans. The guarantee is like being a co-signer on a loan. Money is not tied up.

As far as not having the money, we don't have the money to go fight a war with Iraq or provide tax cuts either. Get real, foreign aid as a whole is a drop in the bucket and Israel's portion is even smaller. Hell, the new Dept. of Homeland Security will spend more on office supplies than we will send in aid to Israel.

The other thing you are not looking at is that most of the foreign aid money has to be used to purchase products from American farmers and American companies. That money is pumped back into the American economy which helps provide jobs, profits to Wall Street, and new tax revenue for the federal gov't.