Home office reveals ID cards cost (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6033687.stm)


Home office minister Liam Byrne confirmed ID cards would be introduced "rapidly", starting with biometric cards, which include fingerprints and facial images, for foreign nationals in 2008.

"Illegal working will become far more difficult as the National Identity Scheme is rolled out," he said.

"Any employer would be able to check a person's unique reference number against registered information about their identity to find out whether someone is eligible to work in the UK.

"ID cards will give us a powerful tool to combat identity fraud which underpins organised crime, terrorism and abuse of the immigration system.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I welcome this to the UK and I would gladly pay more in taxes to help finance it - but I wonder how long it will be before fraudsters get a hold of these ID cards and spoofs come filtering through

I believe ID cards are already in place in the USA - can anyone confirm this and is it effective?

Home office reveals ID cards cost (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6033687.stm)


Home office minister Liam Byrne confirmed ID cards would be introduced "rapidly", starting with biometric cards, which include fingerprints and facial images, for foreign nationals in 2008.

"Illegal working will become far more difficult as the National Identity Scheme is rolled out," he said.

"Any employer would be able to check a person's unique reference number against registered information about their identity to find out whether someone is eligible to work in the UK.

"ID cards will give us a powerful tool to combat identity fraud which underpins organised crime, terrorism and abuse of the immigration system.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I welcome this to the UK and I would gladly pay more in taxes to help finance it - but I wonder how long it will be before fraudsters get a hold of these ID cards and spoofs come filtering through

I believe ID cards are already in place in the USA - can anyone confirm this and is it effective?


Its alot of bollocks mate, they brought alot of builders ID cards in london 9 years back when i left, if u did not have one you could not work on the buildings in london, yet i knew & saw thousand of foreigners working on the buildings there, including myself cash in hand while claiming dole & housing benefits, if there getting it, i made damn sure i was getting it to, i did not have a builders ID card neither did anyone else working cash in hand british, or otherwise.

The builders ID card had the biometrics picture on it too then, my brother who was working legally showed me his, if it did not work 9 years ago, how the hell is it going to work now its alot of BOLLOCKS mate, just burecratic idiots wasting tax payers money, though i never paid any tax i was always working cash in hand, i was never going to pay tax so captain hook muslim, & the other sheiks could be put up in 1 million shag pads in kensington.

Fuck that for a laugh mate.

I believe ID cards are already in place in the USA - can anyone confirm this and is it effective?

Well, in the US, we have a good system of ID using driver licenses that's in a national register. Ditto for "ID" cards if one doesn't drive a car. But we also have social security numbers, that's quite similar to a national ID.

We, however, have allowed the mamby-pamby liberals of the nation to make it almost illegal for the police or anyone else to even ask for that ID "...without due cause".

So ....in effect, we have the ID, but no one is allowed to use it!!!

Baron Max

Most of the people who will use the cards are the totally legal people with nothing to hide in any case. If the government really wanted to stamp out illegal workers, they would heavily fine or even imprison the employers, but they don't and they won't. They don't even do spot-checks unless somebody grasses up someone else. It really makes you wonder what their real motives are.

I welcome this to the UK and I would gladly pay more in taxes to help finance it - but I wonder how long it will be before fraudsters get a hold of these ID cards and spoofs come filtering through

are you nuts?

are you nuts?

No I'm not nuts Mr. Retro Brit/Pak Gangster - I'll back anything that will keep the shit out of this country

I'll back anything that will keep the shit out of this country
What makes you think ID cards will work?

What makes you think ID cards will work?

I dont honestly think they will work having read Vincents post - but anything that can work - I will back

99% of people working illegally aren't employed by accident. The employee knows they're illegal and gives them a poor wage/bad hours/illegal workload to get their moneys worth.

The same problem will be there unless they actually try to catch people working illegally or people hiring illegals.

It just screws the law abiders. Fingerprints on a national database? Fuck that.

We, however, have allowed the mamby-pamby liberals of the nation to make it almost illegal for the police or anyone else to even ask for that ID "...without due cause".

Liberals? Ahem, I think you mean constitutionalists.

- N

No I'm not nuts Mr. Retro Brit/Pak Gangster - I'll back anything that will keep the shit out of this country

What 's***'?

99% of people working illegally aren't employed by accident. The employee knows they're illegal and gives them a poor wage/bad hours/illegal workload to get their moneys worth.

The same problem will be there unless they actually try to catch people working illegally or people hiring illegals.

It just screws the law abiders. Fingerprints on a national database? Fuck that.

VERY TRUE !!!! - the goverment has a lot to answer to - - and so do the corrupt employers who encourage illegal working - there are even agencies in the UK who promote low paid employment for immigrants.

Its a corrupt world - and I cant see it getting any better

The immigrants think they're on a good deal coming here and finding work - but little do they realise they are being screwed too

The immigrants think they're on a good deal coming here and finding work - but little do they realise they are being screwed too

Screwed they may be, but life sure is a lot better for them there than where they came from so I'm sure it's an inconvenience they can deal with.

- N

Screwed they may be, but life sure is a lot better for them there than where they came from so I'm sure it's an inconvenience they can deal with.

- N


Yep Neil thats true too - It also contributes in bringing the economy down with it too - so it affects everyone in the country

It also contributes in bringing the economy down with it too - so it affects everyone in the country

Perhaps that's the plan? I mean, do the Muslim terrorist always announce their plans of attack?

Baron Max

Perhaps that's the plan? I mean, do the Muslim terrorist always announce their plans of attack?

Baron Max

Only to themselves Baron - only to themselves!

But its all going to backfire in their faces in the end - but they are too thick to realise that

Firstly this was something that cropped up somewhere else and well theres a site to go towards those that disagree with any card system.

http://www.no2id.net/

My personal thoughts on the subject is they are pretty useless. For instance a bricklayer can wear his fingerprints out through laying bricks, hows his fingerprint in the register going to be recognised?

As for facial images, there are many reasons why a persons face might change in looks anything from growing facial hair, shaving, getting acne or suffering some muscle atrophy.

On top of this even with a sophisticated database, if anything it will promote crime rather than solve it, since afterall criminals will have a new trade... usable identities.

Yes it would be great to have "A card to rule them all", so you could identify who you are, not have to worry filling out hundreds of forms over and over again etc.

However what about the potential for persecution?

For instance will it be illegal to withhold someones identity card as a form of security? and Why should the tax payer pay even more tax on an already overtaxed system? Quite frankly the only biometrics they'll get out of me is similar to Bells avatar.

Yep Neil thats true too - It also contributes in bringing the economy down with it too - so it affects everyone in the country
How do immigrant workers bring the economy down?

Perhaps that's the plan? I mean, do the Muslim terrorist always announce their plans of attack?

In Spain identity cards are compulsory from the age of 14 onwards, amd have been for ages. But it didn't stop the Madrid bombings. Sometimes I wonder if the ID card scheme is simply to keep someone in job. Bit like the Government ordering soo many Eurofighters that are no longer relevant. It keeps people employed.

Liberals? Ahem, I think you mean constitutionalists.

- N

Hmm. And by "contitutionalists", do you mean those who see the Constitution as set in stone, or those who perceive it as a so-called "living document", subject to change?

Geoff

Neildo, being quite familiar with the Constitution, I ask you to site the relevant section that makes ID's illegal, and liberals are not Constitutionalist, as they want to make the document meaningless by twisting it to conform to what ever they think is in their best interest.

Do Americans have bio-metric ID Cards?

ID cards are a wast of time. For one, the cost will increase, should the chosen supplier ever actually deliver a working system, and I doubt that. Take recent Govt IT projects, like the CSA. (For our US Cousins, this is the 'Child Support Agency', created to make sure fathers pay upkeep for their children. Nice in theory, taking cash of deadbeat dads, but the computer system didn't work very well, there were huge backlogs, and to make up the numbers, they targetted the low hanging fruit, and dads that had registered voluntarily in a hope to get fair settlements. These amounts payable were often set too high, and then the appeal process went to the bottom of the queue, below deadbeat dads they couldn't find. This system was scrapped for a new system, and records were lost in transition. The old system and organisation cost £1 pf taxpayers money per £1 delivered to kids, ie, we might as well have just paid through taxation. The new system which still didn't work was last running at £0.40 per £1, so really inefficient. The whole thing is to be scrapped, with each system costing about £0.5Bn.

There are other Govt IT projects that have failed similarly, but to elaborate further would be digression.

So I doubt this will work, or be on budget. Even then, I doubt ID cards would solve anything. Cash in hand jobs will still take place, fakes would still be made to fool casual inspection, and the biometrics will fail where people have disabilities. Unless the Polie have powers to arrest people for not carrying the card (and I don't want to be made a criminal for forgetting my Wallet) what use iare they? Criminals aren't goingto carry them, and unless you can detain someone until they prove who they are (which sounds far too much like a Police state!) the card will not identify criminals.

Also, as we will qualify for ID cards based on current ID, anyone with current fakes can get an ID card, ... so what have we gained there, certainly no short term gain.

Hmm. And by "contitutionalists", do you mean those who see the Constitution as set in stone, or those who perceive it as a so-called "living document", subject to change?

Those who see it set in stone.

People who call the constitution a living document are jokes and frauds. They're just like religious people who call their holy books living documents picking and choosing what to follow as opposed to following it to a T using it to their advantage only when it suits them while ignoring everything else -- which applies to most modern followers of religion. They use and abuse the constitution and their religion all to make it look like they're good people when they couldn't care less about it except to make them feel morally better for the bad actions they do all because they can also say "I believe in God so I'm good and am going to heaven" while they do the exact opposite of what those documents preach and stand for.

Neildo, being quite familiar with the Constitution, I ask you to site the relevant section that makes ID's illegal, and liberals are not Constitutionalist, as they want to make the document meaningless by twisting it to conform to what ever they think is in their best interest.

Yes, liberals aren't constitutionalists, and that's the point I was alluding to.

Baron Max said, to which I responded with:

"We, however, have allowed the mamby-pamby liberals of the nation to make it almost illegal for the police or anyone else to even ask for that ID "...without due cause". - Baron Max

"Liberals? Ahem, I think you mean constitutionalists." - me

He specifically quoted "without due cause" which is most likely in reference to the 4th ammendment in regards to search and seizure requiring probable cause. If so, then that's a mindset from a constitutionalist defending our rights, not the sayings of liberals which he accused of. My comments weren't in regards to saying national IDs being illegal but rather his false accusations of who said what.

Myself, I have no problem with IDs as we already have em. We have school IDs, regular IDs, driver's licences, fishing permits, concealed carry permits, credit card databases, medical histories, social security cards, you name it. I have no problem with those, but I do have a problem with the national IDs that our government wants to implement because it consolidates all of that information into one card. Sure, it makes it easier for citizens when needing to use them, but the worse part is that it makes it easier to steal someone's identity and cause other frauds which this is supposedly trying to combat. If you think that'll put a stop to those activities, you're sadly mistakenly informed.

All of that information is already accessable if the government wishes to get it from me. For my security, it's all spread out upon multiple cards making it harder for criminals to retreive that information so they can only get bits and pieces of it if they choose to attempt it. Unfortunatley, thanks to the lack of security of those in charge of that information, criminals already are able to get that information with the numerous stories that we've all heard of phone companies, credit card companies, and even the military losing laptops containing the information of millions of people. National IDs won't put a stop to that careless behavior of those information companies. Now imagine those companies having absolute access to all information of ours, including fingerprints, retinal scans, and even blood type that are supposed to be in these new national IDs and it makes it that much worse to the prevention of identity theft!

If you want to put that technology to use, go right ahead, but don't force it upon me. You can also try out the new shopping method at certain test stores throughout the country that uses fingerprints to buy items. Grab your items, walk up to a clerk, do a quick fingerprint scan and your purchase is automatically deducted from your bank account. You can use that more convenient method, but I sure won't. All I have to do is see you in a resturant, steal your glass when you leave, and I have access to your fingerprint and can make a mold of it and then go on a shopping spree at stores that use that easy pay method which'll suck for you.

Technological convenience is a double-edged sword. It makes life more easier for the average citizen, but also for criminals able to exploit that.

- N