Hey all

what a nifty forum u got here :)

and all this Ufo talk is really getting to me....my idea on UFO's is that yes they are out there...But who says that they are more technologically advanced then us???
:confused:
They may be stuck on some planet too...about 30000 light years away, just driving cars and beginning to understand spiritalism and such...or they have been wiser then us, and put spiritulism first...(unlike us that go by the life...if u cant see it, then it doesnt exist)

:bugeye: IT was just an idea, that if there was only one beggining of the universe, what would document another race's speedier evoloution i.e What would make them thousands or even Millions of earth years more technologically advanced ?????

Alot of people assume that Ufo's have laser guns and are little green men

not that i dont mind little green men

hehehehehehe

lol

So why do u all assume the laser gun and flying saucer???

I want some of what your smoking

I think pickle has got a point. If the universe all started at the same time, and all the accreation formed , or started to form the stars at about the same time, then we are all roughly starting from the same point in time. All rocky planets would take about the same time to form ,cool down, evolve life etc.. mmm, but on second thought some would form quicker than others, evolve etc, and a few million years is no time at all compared to the total age of the universe. Dexter, i think i am smoking what pickle is! :confused:

Welcome to what I call, affectionately, scifoolems forums.

UFO’s are an interesting topic to discuss. But I think that THEY have been identified as a craft of some kind, and are far more advanced than ours. As to weaponry, well check out this site (http://www.craterchains.com/) .

Look at the size of our constructions, the bigger and bigger ships we are building and so on. Think about our mining operations, now, think about what other races of ETI across the universe have built?

Passes the pipe to the next poster,,, LOL :m:

YES okay then....but when u think about the size of the universe...do these 000000's seem that farfetched?? :(

Like in class the other day we were discussing the size of just our galaxy , The Milky Way. Any way seeing as we are located on a wing of the galaxy, we found out through reading a book that just to reach the center of the galaxy ( And remembering that there are millions of galaxy's) it would take 3000 years of traveling traveling at like 100000 x the speed of light..... JUST TO REACH THE CENTER

Now think about how many planets and stars there would be among this area???....Now through these millions of planets, could their be a possibility that some meteors have landed in a row???? And also account that the planet has been their for like BILLIONS of years...

It might be a minute chance over 1000 years yes...but over billions of years...i dont think so

im not denying UFO life...i encourage the idea that there are other life biengs...but why would they be so far more advanced than us??

and i guess no one has the answer...lol atleast not yet :bugeye:

ahh well...back to my pipe :m:

yeah...but y do we always assume that they have massive ships and laser guns and disc shaped objects?

Most ufo sightings, involve a craft that is clearly way more advanced than anything we can create on earth, even for it to get here unless they are from close by would take techology way more advanced then our own.

There probably are ETI who are stuck on their planet similar to us, but for the ones visiting earth, id imagine they would be more advanced.

Am i right in thinking that craterchains can be found on quite a few of the planets in our solar system?? not a rare phenomina??

There are BILLIONS of stars in the MIlky Way.
There are BILLIONS of galaxies. Pay closer attention in class, or get a more modern science book.

It is POSSIBLE to form a string of craters in a comet breakup. Not at all PROBABLE. And, not hundreds in one solar system. Or you think you can win all the lotto's on the planet too?


IF they are here, ETI and their UFO’s, with that advanced technology do you really think we are alone on the web? :eek:

Passes the pipe,,, :m:

Crater chains are not rare in our solar system.

It is POSSIBLE to form a string of craters in a comet breakup. Not at all PROBABLE. And, not hundreds in one solar system. Or you think you can win all the lotto's on the planet too?

Perhaps you will honour with a reply to this post Norval, or don't you like debating when your defeat is a foregone conclusion?
You demonstrated a keen eye for numbers at the start of your last post. So, roughly how many comets have dropped in from the Oort cloud in the last couple of billion years? How many of those, as a pecentage, would you say have fallen apart? How many of those might have hit a solid planet or satellite, so as to leave evidence? Show me the statistics that justify your claims and I'll become your most ardent supporter.

Actually, it's not the comets that are the most likely progenitors for catenae (chains of craters), its the rubble-pile asteroids.

Norval seems to keep avoiding that fact throughout his rants on alien war.

Good point. I got carried away by statistics and a faint hope he might deign to answer me.

Skinny should really take a few real courses in applied physics and science. His education seems to be towards other interests. One does wonder at how he is applying what he is learning though.

Any hunk of space junk ain’t going to break apart, and be able to cohesively strike in the patterns we see of CS types of crater chains based on gravity and trajectories involved.

If you believe that they can, then the same possibility exists that you will win all lotto’s on earth for the next six months. Lie, slander, twist and deceive all you want to, facts are still there. Many scientists are even questioning that stupid of comets did these,,, FOCLMFAO

Skinny should really take a few real courses in applied physics and science. His education seems to be towards other interests. One does wonder at how he is applying what he is learning though.

I got an "A" on this paper (http://home.earthlink.net/~ctfeagans/uforeligion.htm) And you and crazymikey helped me get it... thanks.

Any hunk of space junk ain’t going to break apart, and be able to cohesively strike in the patterns we see of CS types of crater chains based on gravity and trajectories involved.

And in all of the threads that you've started or comment in about "crater chains," you've never once effectively demonstrated why. Indeed, several citations have been provided (Bothke, et al) that have demonstrated that rubble-pile asteroids are precisely the most likely cause of catenae. Several sciforums members have asked you for the specific math that demonstrates what you are saying and all that is returned is a post from FieryIce with some random cut and paste as a spurious attempt to deceive.

As I pointed out in another thread (http://home.earthlink.net/~ctfeagans/craterchains.htm), your speculation that catenae are the result of "alien warfare" is classic pseudoscience.

cheers,
carl

Well then, how have these dudes that visit our planet become so advanced in the same time that we have....

if they have massive flying saucers and so, why do we only have the car :(

Unless you are suggesting several "begginings" of the universe?

One "beginning of the universe" doesn't necessarily imply that life began on all life-bearing planets at the same point, nor does the possibility of life beginning simultaneously on separate worlds imply that evolution on those worlds will occur at the same rate or that the two worlds will provide the same selective forces for an evolution.

It's entirely feasible for an advanced civilization to exist concurrently with our own, relatively less advanced, civilization. Its even possible that they have visited our own world... though very unlikely based on the amount of energy that would be required to make the trip and the number of places that the other civilization would have to choose for visitation.

Yes now i do see it that way now.... :D thank you

:m: none left lol

But wait, could it be possible that we are the most advanced race in the universe.....
[QUOTE=SkinWalker]
It's entirely feasible for an advanced civilization to exist concurrently with our own, relatively less advanced, civilization.[QUOTE]

Like why do we always assume that their is some hound dog with super powered Quantum laser Vulcan cannons ready to destroy us?? i mean, why do we always have to be the Underdog, the lowest race, the Weakest. We could be the Humans...surrounded by planets of mircobes. But i guess its a possibility that others have been to out planet before the human race, before the dinosaurs infact...Maybe back to the time when mars was perhaps habitabal....and something went wrong.
Maybe there were/are martians who distreated their planet(like we are currently now) and ended up suffering...ALONG time ago.

argggg...I dont know what to believe...and theories are usually spineless.
I want evidence goddamit
And i guess im not gonna get it..................
Just think, maybe our kids,kids,kids,kids,kids,kids,kids,kids,kids,kids, kids,kids,kids,kids,kids,kids,kids,kids,kids,kids, kids,uncles,moms,pet dog's previous owner will learn of the truth about Aliens, when the scientists of their time make contact or find some evidence.

Why does the univers have to be so large

Food for though i suppose

Think about that for a while...it seems cool...the universe is cool but the only thing that pisses me off is that i will probually never come anycloser to understanding it until i die...Stupid 70 year life span :o :mad:

ahh well back to my pot

There is so much credible information on "ufos" it not even funny.

There are credible sightings from Pilot's to Politicians, Astronauts to Local Authoraties.

Most people just ignore the vast amount of information on the sunbject, this thing is happening, maybe its a good, maybe it is bad, but one thing is for sure, UFO'S ARE REAL.

P.S I mean unidentified flying objects not alien ships when i say ufos are real.

Yep. These aliens have some incredible technology that allows them to whiz around the universe at superhyper speeds, all the while easliy either navigating around, or plowing right through, all sorts of detritus, debris, planets, asteroids, etc., with no damage to them whatsoever, then only to make it our planet and crash to bits when they hit the sands of New Mexico.

:bugeye: mmm i wonder then if the speed of light can actually be broken...........

:bugeye: mmm i wonder then if the speed of light can actually be broken...........

Why would you want to break the Speed of Light? For intersteller travel?

If you want to cross a vast void of space it is far easier to bend the fabric of Space and Time. If you can imagine a sheet of paper as the fabric of space and time you can cross the paper as it lays flat from one side to the other or you can bend the sheet and bring the two oppisite sides together and this translates into reduced distance.

Why would you want to break the Speed of Light? For intersteller travel?

If you want to cross a vast void of space it is far easier to bend the fabric of Space and Time. If you can imagine a sheet of paper as the fabric of space and time you can cross the paper as it lays flat from one side to the other or you can bend the sheet and bring the two oppisite sides together and this translates into reduced distance.

But how can you prove that this type of travel actually exists....or is it another spineless theory with no evidence to boot. Yes it sounds fancy, but is their really any meat to it.

And isnt travelling at any speed altering time?? therefore u are altering space and time

Yep. These aliens have some incredible technology that allows them to whiz around the universe at superhyper speeds, all the while easliy either navigating around, or plowing right through, all sorts of detritus, debris, planets, asteroids, etc., with no damage to them whatsoever, then only to make it our planet and crash to bits when they hit the sands of New Mexico.

Or they get shot down by a Rocket or Somthing.

But how can you prove that this type of travel actually exists....or is it another spineless theory with no evidence to boot. Yes it sounds fancy, but is their really any meat to it.

And isnt travelling at any speed altering time?? therefore u are altering space and time

It is possible and here is proof.

http://www.lausd.k12.ca.us/NH_Zoo_Magnet/space_andrew/light_and_gravity.html

Im sorry if i seem superskeptical...but its just my natural defence to new ideas that im not familiar with...ill check out the site now

thanks man

to harness space time into a machine would blow your mind

Let me just explain something, you can't break the speed of light as it's a constant.

namely two frequencies could have wavelengths of different size:

<table width="80" height=70>
<TD>
<marquee width=20 scrollamount=5 scrolldelay=0>
A: .-..-..-..-..-..-..-..-.-..-..-..-..-..-..-..-..-.-..-..-..-..-..-..-..-.-..-..-..-..-..-..-..-..-
<BR>
B: .-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._.-^-._
</marquee>
</TD>
</table>

Those wavelengths however "Move" at the same speed, This means that the smaller wavelength helixes stay in relationship to where they are placed with the larger waveformation helixes in the diagram, if moving.

Thats why it's suggested that matter can't move faster than the speed of light for that particular constant. ("E=MC²",A. Einstein)

However it is as mentioned, suggested that it would be possible to "bend spacetime" since spacetime is actually madeup of a matrix of intersecting energies, frequencies and magnetic fluctuations (caused by the energies/frequencies fluctuating influences over atomic particle systems.)

So it's suggested that it can be manipulated to create higher fields of those energies/frequencies to "stiffen" the spacetime enough in a local area to cause spacetime to distort between two locations. It's not as if the whole universe is suddenly split asunder, but a pocket or bubble of spacetime is altered from the rest of the universe.

According to what I think Quantum Relativity suggests, all matter within the known universe has it's energy exist at other points within the universe at the same time. This is what gaveway to the "Butterfly Effect" theory in the suggestion that a Butterfly flapping it's wings on one side of the globe, could unleash a Tornado or Earthquake on the otherside of the world, Not just through the nature of knock-on-effects (chain reactions) but because of it's Paradoxical existance in multiple locations(which adds to the chain reactions).

The other thought here is this, We as a human race are contemplating such distortions of spacetime and potentially eventually even craft, not hundreds of years from now... but dacades we will have technology that would seem a few years ago to be "alien".

If our technology gets to the point of being as advanced, if not more advanced than the stories that are told of the alledged Roswell craft, don't you think that would undermine the alledged craft being some super-advanced civilizations scout craft and actually turn out to be something like one of the Blackops projects suggested?

The roswell "craft" was an american spy balloon, thats been proved beyond doubt now and I for one am happy with that.

Although not eloquent to explain in similar terms I can envisage in my mind what is written. Some of the so called UFO sightings were very definitely blackop planes but not all. Anyone who believes that we are alone in this universe has a very high opinion of themselves. We are not alone that is also certain in my view. To have the ability to "fold space" is feasible. The mere fact that the human brain can describe the process means it could be possible. My own favourite method waiting to be discovered is the worm hole theory.

In 1947 we did not have any Science even close to intersteller travel by bending the fabric of Space. The truth is we learned about what we are now trying to develope by what we have discovered in the past. We did recover objects not of this world to study. And that has been the testimony by credible scientist from around the world. It is hard for most people to believe that another intellegent life form has the science of intersteller travel and uses it to visit the Earth. It was a little over two hundred years ago that Man kind was dependent upon the beast for transportation. Now if Man can advance as much in 200 years what would an intelligent life form such as Man acheave in 200,000 years? The truth is we are not alone. There is other intellegent life in our Gallaxy.

The roswell "craft" was an american spy balloon, thats been proved beyond doubt now and I for one am happy with that.


When was it proved that the crash was a Wether Ballon? Here is proof that it wasen't a weather balloon.

http://roswellproof.homestead.com/

>>>>When was it proved that the crash was a Wether Ballon? Here is proof that it wasen't a weather balloon.

http://roswellproof.homestead.com/

a website with the name Roswellproof can hardly be said to be impartial. got any others that are more objective?

We did recover objects not of this world to study. And that has been the testimony by credible scientist from around the world. .
Starman, I am sure you have been asked this countless times. Please name one of these credible scientists and cite the peer reviewed journal in which his testimony appears.
It is hard for most people to believe that another intellegent life form has the science of intersteller travel and uses it to visit the Earth. .
You are actually making three claims:
There are other intelligences
They have interstellar travel
They visit the earth

All of these are perfectly plausible. Most, perhaps all, of your critics would accept these as possible. However, there is zero conclusive evidence for any of these. So please, do not claim it is difficult for most people to believe....etc. It is impossible to believe without evidence.

When the secret US surveillance program was declassified in the 90s, I believe. They took some of these balloons to Roswell and showed where they were found and the remains of the original, they were made from the same, then secret, material. Nobody then had heard of micro thin tinfoil and the plastic compounds as used by the US Military. Space ship it was not. Nobody in the US wanted the Soviets to know about these listening posts in the stratosphere so they played along with the mystery. You make the mistake we all make by comparing 1948 mystery with modern day knowledge. The stuff that these spy balloons were made of was classified and so was the program and so was the equipment. Naturally, if one of us found a piece of equipment in the desert and it proved to have anti grav qualities we would believe it to be extra terrestrial in fact it could just as easily be military.


That site you provided is a privately owned site, like my own, and does not necessarily present the truth, only a version of somebody's truth. My own site depicts, amongst loads of other stuff, the sinking of the Bismarck and the fact that she was scuttled, not sunk by the Royal Navy. Someone can come along and argue the case that she was sunk by the Royal Navy, at the end of the day, what I put on MY site is the truth until proved otherwise! Thats site of yours proves absolutely nothing except the authors opinion.

Another point you raise is Technology, If you were to follow the trend of technological advancements throughout the ages, you would see that we are moving along what can only be described as an "Exponential curve".

Discoveries at first would have been slow, because to begin with there was no mass communication network and no easy way of digesting the tuition of others. However there were instances of golden ages, which we would all acknowledge as being Ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt and a few other civilisations that get missed out.

The reason their Golden ages occured was not due to "Alien Advancement", but because their countries started to generate Centralised state systems. This is why the technology level in what would be Britain at that time wasn't at the same level because it's system wasn't as centralised.

Centralisation meant that Scholars and Philosophers could talk with one another and they inturn would talk with those that ran those civilisations at that time. If someone "invented" something new, they would take it to the Centralised government to be shown to all, who in turn would spread the news of its accomplishment throughout the dominion.

As we fast forward through time, You can see these centralised communication hubs increasing, In England (the same abroad) Technologies and discoveries would have been brought before the Kings and Queens of the realm and their courts. However the difference between the English Monarchy and that of abroad is notibly religion, where some religions for many years classed the pursuit of "Scienta" as Heresy, The Protestant religion generated by Henry the Eigth (If admittedly only for his own gain of having the capacity to re-marry.) didn't apply the same lack of reasoning that other religions did.

Further forwards again some of those Scientific breakthroughs advance the way news and information can spread. "The Printing Press" increased the amount of "Readable" formatted literature available at libraries or to the rich that could afford the carefully handcrafted bound books.

As for increasing the capacity of our abilities to calculate there were great Calculation machines derived, one of which not built but derived by Charles Babbage (Who also to my belief invented the Barcoding system for use with "The Royal Mail" which itself was another great invention).

On the subject of this information being read, Although their had been many messaging systems in the past, none could surpass the invention of "The Steam Engine" (And then "Locomotive") and then eventually "The Telegraph".

Later still to come was the "Telephone" and "Radio transmissions", which then gave way to dealing with Logi Baird's invention, "The Television".

All of these increasements allowed "Science" to spread not just the land at high speed, but the world. What also helped with this information exchange was that it wasn't just the rich that used it, the working class could to.

This brings us close to the present time to which we build greater computation engines to help decrypt messages during the second world war, the war also generates a permanent Atlantic communication line for communication between two commanders.

(This line now has been replaced with a Fibre optic cable that helps to deliver websites around the world through the use of the internet)

Thats where we are now, the internet. Computer networks that are comprised of declassified "Early warning systems" and private research communication lines.
For many years the internet was 80-90% based in the US, while developing countries began to look towards generating their own infrastructure. (Still to this day the largest IP address holder in the world is the U.S. Military.)

The internet is by far the fastest medium of information exchange, and it grows with ever increasing research into how the information is formatted. The greater the command of multimedia, the higher the IQ of those that actually sit and watch it.

Not to forget the advancement of computation systems, the cutting ground of software technologies devoted to "Evolve" designs to generate ergonomic revisions, or systems that can automatically work out what to do at a higher rate than us humans can comprehend.

This is why I say the suggestion of Roswell being a Spacecraft, and us Humans not having the capacity to be working on projects behind the vail of Secrecy is ludicrous.
I believe we have the capacity to achieve anything as long as we work together for the common good of that project (Pity we've never applied it well to world peace).

On the subject of "inventions". What are we inventing or what are we re-discovering? I do not have details to hand but wasn't there something about a bronze "block" found in an (really) ancient boat somewhere or other that, when x-rayed, was seen to be clockwork?

>>>>a website with the name Roswellproof can hardly be said to be impartial. got any others that are more objective?

Here is a link and a quote that is more conclusive.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc485.htm

Good writes that according to information supplied to science journalists, NASA may be in possession of physical evidence relating to extraterrestrial materials. In 1974 a Polish biophysicist and engineer contracted to NASA, was a member of an international team of English, French and Italian scientists which was given some odd metallic and plastic-like material, supposedly originating from the Soviet Union, to analyse. Under analysis with an electronic microscope, the team found small pyramid structures in the nanometre range (ie: one thousand millionth of a metre), showing a kind of super reflectivity. They found alloys that could only have been made in conditions of weightlessness. Other tests showed traces of unusual Kapton and Kevlar-type synthetics. This was in the early 1950s and those materials had not existed at that time. The melting point of the metal samples was above two thousand degrees centigrade, and tests using helium, neon and ruby lasers had no effect. The foil seemed to possess a ‘memory’, like current memory metals, but to a factor of one thousand or better. (Several witnesses of the Roswell crash described a metal with similar qualities.)

Timothy Good's credibility is even in question among some that consider themselves UFO believers (Bruce-Knapp, 1997). Apparently Good's methodology was in question over at least one of his key interviews with "highly placed officials," namely Admiral Bobby Inman (U.S. Navy, ret.).

In a telephone interview, Good asked Inman vague questions that could later be put into the "UFO/Crashed Disk" context.

I read Good's Above Top Secret when it came out and it was initially convincing until I began to consider that the entire argument of the book rests on what Good perceives as truth or what portions of information he wants to convey.

In otherwords, the entire book, all probably all the rest, suffer from confirmation biases and perhaps even deceptions. His arguement seems only to be, "why would these people lie?" Yet he's fully willing to take their words out of context in order to tell his story.

The interesting part is this: UFO nutters are willing to accept that government officials will lie to keep secrets, but not writers to tell stories (and make a comfortable living).

Anecdotal account is not evidence. It's merely heresay and subject to many types of bias each time the story is told. Not to mention the likelihood of being completely fabricated. Anecdotal accounts are best used to put physical evidence into context. Without existing phsycial evidence, anecdotes must either be discarded or archived until such time as the physical evidence is recovered.

Only a fool makes or accepts conclusions based solely on the say-so of people.

Bruce-Knapp, Errol (1997). Good, Oechsler, Inman & 'Cosmic Journey' - Pt 1. (http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1997/feb/m22-004.shtml) VirtuallyStrange.net.

Skinwalker here is evdence from the CNI archive.


http://archive.anomalies.net/cni-news/CNI.0814.html

I have two questions:

First, why are you violating the forum's copy / paste rules (you should check 'em out)?

Second, you're kidding, right? Jack Shulman is the biggest nutjob of them all.


Actually, I have another question. If Shulman is on the up and up, where is the physical evidence? There you go, believing crap off of the internet again... What is it with people and the willingness to accept the fantasies of others simply because they're willing to write them down. At least post a link to something that cites original sources. Hell, even "CNI" is a bogus entity. They aren't accredited or recognized by any news organization that I'm aware of. I don't even think they exist anymore.

More on the Jack Shulman kook:

SlashDot Article (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/06/27/1346209&mode=thread)

Jack Shulman & ACC being called on their crap by the legal system (http://lists.jammed.com/IWAR/1998/03/0021.html)

ACC (Shulman's company) says TCAP will be on time! (http://leader.linkexchange.com/2/X1002713/showiframe?) Of course, that was in July of 1998 when they claimed that their 12,000GHz, 300GB RAM chips, reverse engineered from alien technology, would be available by 1999. Uhh... it's 2004 and the patent was withdrawn by ACC in 1997 or 1998. Can anyone say, "Sales Gimmick?"

I have two questions:

Second, you're kidding, right? Jack Shulman is the biggest nutjob of them all.

?"

Ok you do not think Shulman is credible.

How about Gordon Cooper, Jimmy Carter, J. Edgar Hover?

http://www.outoftheblue.tv/data/Hoover/Hoover.html

Hoover was a transvite but he was a credible transvite.

Btw more from what Shulman had once upon a time here:
[WARNING: This Cgi loads a very long list of BBS entries, and it will kill your browser, be patient and increase your cache size if you truly want to view it.]
http://byamerican.com/cgi-bin/archiveast/config.cgi?

(Btw you will find some very "Kooky" post by yours truly when I was younger, thats teh main reason I thought I could deal with this section of Sciforums.com... I *was* like "them" once. At least till I put the drugs down and sobered up.)

As for your evidence using Hoover, some wouldn't of suggested him credible either.

You should also note that they are pointing to a document on the FBI website which is in regards to the Balloons that people had been letting off all over the states with things like Circular saw blades attached to the bottom. What the FBI was upset over was that the US Military was taking control of such crashes/evidence.

However it should be noted that the Japanese during the second world war attempted to use Balloon bombs along with the US's attempts at high altitude surveillance, so in either case the first people that would of wanted to be at the scene would have been the military either to keep their blackproject veiled or to defuse anything that might blowup.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/wwii/jbb.htm

Credibility is only as good as their critical thinking. Jimmy Carter saw Venus (http://www.debunker.com/texts/carter_ufo.html).

Ronald and Nancy Reagan believed in astrology.

George W. Bush believes god wants him to be President.

Adolf Hitler thought there should be a master race.

Lots of otherwise "credible" people believe in everything from magnatherapy to cold fusion to tarot to channelling to creationism and strict literalism of the bible.

Their credibility in areas of personal expertise (i.e. politics, law enforcement, or engineering) isn't in question... it's their belief systems regarding the incredible that is.

The UFO-ETI Community has some very religious-like tendancies, particularly when it comes to accepting doctrine and testimony at face-value. I see you questioning that very notion in the "Religion" forum, but so accepting of it when the belief fits your own worldview.

I wrote a paper on this topic, which I'm considering updating... http://home.earthlink.net/~ctfeagans/uforeligion.htm

(Btw you will find some very "Kooky" post by yours truly when I was younger, thats teh main reason I thought I could deal with this section of Sciforums.com... I *was* like "them" once. At least till I put the drugs down and sobered up.)


Ha! I used to run a BBS in Germany called "Another Brick In The Wall" and had a huge UFO section! I later started a website in 1995-97 called Alien Implant, moving most of the crap I had to that site. Everything I posted as "proof" was simply anecdotal accounts and some, very obviously concocted, tales of alien abductions, implants, implant removals, close encounters, etc....... ughh... how ignorant and unenlightened I was then :cool:

Lots of otherwise "credible" people believe in everything from magnatherapy to cold fusion to tarot to channelling to creationism and strict literalism of the bible.

Their credibility in areas of personal expertise (i.e. politics, law enforcement, or engineering) isn't in question... it's their belief systems regarding the incredible that is.

The UFO-ETI Community has some very religious-like tendancies, particularly when it comes to accepting doctrine and testimony at face-value. I see you questioning that very notion in the "Religion" forum, but so accepting of it when the belief fits your own worldview.[/url]

Click on this Skinwalker and I hope you just try to disprove the NPC.
http://www.disclosureproject.org/npcwebcast.htm

How can you take a credible individual who you agree is credible and state they are not credible. This is very contradictory to say the least. You mean you believe only what you want to believe of their statments?

UFO's are not a "Religion" they are unidentifyed flying objects.

To except doctrine or testimony in one instance regarding Aliens from another world would be hard to except without physical evidence.

However when you have a group of credible individuals whose testimony cannot be dismissed as anything other than credible such is the case with Gordon Cooper and you add up the all the Airline Pilots testimony this from individuals who have a great risk of loosing credibility and are vastly educated then I tend to take notice of what they say.

How can you believe the "Weather Ballon Story" and everything else our government says is true when in fact it is a lie. Do you believe in Weapons of Mass Destruction in Irac? Maby you are a little Religous about believing everything you hear from the Government?

Here is a link abou Gordon Cooper.
http://www.outoftheblue.tv/clips/clips.html

Of course I'm not denying the existance of ufo's... I'm only skeptical of claims that they explainable only as "alien spacecraft."

When will you get it through your head that social status does not imply credibility? Hell, you brought up the Iraq WMD issue... we were told they were there... so where are they? (rhetorical question... the answer goes to another thread)

UFOs are not a religion, but the "UFO-ETI movement" is very religious-like and, indeed, several religious cults have developed from it: Heaven's Gate, Raelians, et al.

The "weather balloon" story has credibility. It implies a technology that was available, explains the debris, explains the secrecy (the balloons weren't for "weather," they were for high-altitude observation). I'm sorry, but this is the simplest, most probable answer. To believe otherwise, one must embrace a religious-like belief system.

Of course I'm not denying the existance of ufo's... I'm only skeptical of claims that they explainable only as "alien spacecraft."
I'm sorry, but this is the simplest, most probable answer. To believe otherwise, one must embrace a religious-like belief system.

Simple but not probable specialy when you take notice to the memo that Ramey had in his hand discribing the baloon coverstory.

Did you even whatch the complete video from the NPC? Even a skeptic like you will not be able to disavow this compelling evidence.

I did watch the complete video... ages ago. Its old news, you know. I came to the conclusion that much of what was being said was simply self-agrandizing behavior that is common and expected among people. Our common characteristic is that we seek status among our peers. If any of these so-called highly-placed, credible eyewitnesses had supplied a relic or artifact for study and examination, had any of them written a scholarly paper with duplicatable methodology, then they would have had true credibility.

They were living their own self-aggrandizing, deluded fantasies... there's little difference between these people and the attendees of a Star Trek convention. With exception to the costumes. And the fact that most of the ST fans are willing to accept that they are fantasizing.

They were living their own self-aggrandizing, deluded fantasies... there's little difference between these people and the attendees of a Star Trek convention. With exception to the costumes. And the fact that most of the ST fans are willing to accept that they are fantasizing.

I did a survey of a random group of 50 individuals in Las Cruces New Mexico.

The question was simple.

Have Astronauts landed on the moon refering to the Apollo Program?

48 of the 50 answered that we have never landed on the Moon and that it was all Staged in Hollywood in a Soundstage.

This reinforces my statement that common sense is not common.

Without common sense it is hard to assimilate in some cases fact from fiction.

There are some things that some people will not understand because of the limmitations of their thought process. This is more common when reality of the situation is beyond the everyday experience of the individual.

You are making my case for me quite well. People (being Homo sapiens) are subject to hardwired tendencies to engage in belief. Those that you sampled were evident of the power of belief. For whatever reason, they have instilled in themselves a system of beliefs that excludes the possibility of human visitation to the Moon. It is not a matter of "common sense," it's a matter of belief.

I did a survey myself of teenagers in Dallas County (n=30) and discovered that nearly all believe that life on the planet began with Creation and people began with Adam and Eve. Only one thought otherwise. That's not a matter of common sense, it's a matter of belief.

You are making my case for me quite well. People (being Homo sapiens) are subject to hardwired tendencies to engage in belief. Those that you sampled were evident of the power of belief. For whatever reason, they have instilled in themselves a system of beliefs that excludes the possibility of human visitation to the Moon. It is not a matter of "common sense," it's a matter of belief.

I did a survey myself of teenagers in Dallas County (n=30) and discovered that nearly all believe that life on the planet began with Creation and people began with Adam and Eve. Only one thought otherwise. That's not a matter of common sense, it's a matter of belief.

On the other side I forgot to mention that 49 of the 50 stated that they did believe in God.

Now Im perplexed, dosen't it take some kind of a sense to understand Religion for what it really is? According to my observation not many can understand the origins of Religion let alone the fact that it is a man made entity.

You can call it a matter of belief I would add that it is a matter of faith vrs common sense.

Lets try something different in regards to the truth of Roswell. Let's say it was a spacecraft engineered to travel light years and survive the harshness of space, why prey tell would such an "invincible" craft, crash?

Lets also take into consideration the number of cars on our roads, Okay we know there are alot of accidents however the accidents are in a minority percentage, if Roswell was an alien craft does that mean it's a high percentage that all occupants die from space travel???? If thats the case I wouldn't want to insure spaceflight for aliens.

(This does not cover our own craft which occasionally do have glitches that end in catastrophes)

Another question there would be where are all the other "Space hogs"?

As for religion, it's just an enforced belief system to keep the Lower classes from beheading the state heirarchy.

Lets if Roswell was an alien craft does that mean it's a high percentage that all occupants die from space travel???? If thats the case I wouldn't want to insure spaceflight for aliens.


Not all occupants die that is evident with our own space program.

I'd ask Stryder to delete that last line as derogatory and disrespectful towards the 7 people who had gave their lives for science... except I'm naught sure what an astronaught is.

I'd suggest as reading materials Ramachandran and Boyer, both of which I've cited elsewhere, in order to further your knowlege and insight in the quest for discovering why people believe in gods and religion.

I'd also suggest Michael Shermer's Why People Believe Weird Things as well as Why Smart People Believe Weird Things (the sequal).

I also see it as ironic that you criticize those who cling to religion whilst clinging to the UFO-ETI notion like it's a raft in the ocean :cool: The belief systems in charge of sustaining and justifying the core tenets of each are more similar than dissimilar.

Starman

Excuse me! What the hell is that supposed to mean? I do not care for jokes of that ilk. Making fun of a tragic accident is banning material in my book.

[Edited by Stryder]
I apologise for editing since the poster didn't write anything to be edited, it's just I've removed the comment that sparked complaint because of the complaints and therefore had to edit.

I too think that "joke" was in extremely bad taste.
Is that how low you have to stoop to make a point? Are you really that devoid of substance?

Now do you see my point about how even people who profess to have "common sense" can lose credibility?

Now do you see my point about how even people who profess to have "common sense" can lose credibility?

I appoligise for the joke. I never ment any disrespect for the people who have given their lives for the Space Program.

I used a poor example the dangers of Space Exploration. I was trying to explain that Space travel is dangerous to almost all life forms. I do not believe you can compare Space travel to other modes of travel here on Earth.

And what is "Common Sense".

according to the dictionary.

1 : the unreflective opinions of ordinary people
2 : sound and prudent but often unsophisticated judgment

I am in no way ordinary however I am unsophisticated. So I am unsure if I possess a common sense for my thoughts are not often common.

http://www.visi.com/~markg/haunted.html

you might be interested in this read on belief......

http://www.visi.com/~markg/haunted.html

you might be interested in this read on belief......

To discover that the Universe is some 8 to 15 billion years and not 6 to 12 thousand years old improves our appreciation of its sweep and grandeur; to entertain the notion that we are a particularly complex arrangement of atoms, and not some breath of divinity, at the very least enhances our respect for atoms; to discover, as now seems probable, that our planet is one of billions of other worlds in the Milky Way Galaxy and that our galaxy is one of billions more, majestically expands the arena of what is possible; to find that our ancestors were also the ancestors of apes ties us to the rest of life and makes possible important - if occaisionally rueful - reflections on human nature. Carl Sagan.

[QUOTE=Star_One]There is so much credible information on "ufos" it not even funny.

There are credible sightings from Pilot's to Politicians, Astronauts to Local Authoraties.

Most people just ignore the vast amount of information on the sunbject, this thing is happening, maybe its a good, maybe it is bad, but one thing is for sure, UFO'S ARE REAL.

P.S I mean unidentified flying objects not alien ships when i say ufos are real.[/Star One Would you like to read about an atmospheric event I witnessed 8 yrs. ago . It concerns a ufo sighting and time distortion . It left its calling card and N.O.A.A. is aware of this and thats why NEXRAD ( next generation doppler radar) was made operational. They know when the next time the rings first begin to develop on any N.W.S. radar screen in the continental U.S. they have 3-1/2 hours before the softspot opens and it arrives or departs . They did'nt know what they were viewing on their screen , until I read a newspaper article they had released to the media stating they thought it was caused by birds !!!!! When I reported what I had witnessed at the same moment the rings had burst . We all know now that it was no coincidence . They sure turned a whiter shade of pale when I told them about time not being right and that it was approximately 250 ft. in diameter . Would like for me to fax you the article and picture from the newspaper ? I'm only seeking a scientific explanation, and I don't believe in flying saucers or little green men . This is not of our earth. Have a nice day and please respond , I would like to hear your views. Donald Q UOTE]

Not all occupants die that is evident with our own space program.

So the surviving crew member of a craft that had travelled perhaps millions of miles teaches us to use a rocket? Don't you think it would have shared some incredible propulsion device,instead of a refinement of von Brauns (not sure of spelling) V2?

Having always been open minded I myself, me sitting here, has seen a UFO. It was in the company of an entire night shift, standing on the roof of a high mill on Merseyside. Later, when our chargehand phone the local paper, they said they had received hundreds of sightings.

Get a map of merseyside before you. Observation point, mid wirral, at top of peninsula. Looking magentic north.

Scenario: Workmate comes in tells me and chargehand that "something funny going on across the river" - we ALL went up onto the roof and saw a large orange(ish) fuzzy ball floating out over the Irish Sea, distance unknown, hovering apparently "looking" along the River Mersey. We estimated it had been there 7-8 minutes. After it had been there 15 minutes, it suddenly shot away across to out left and stopped dead, hovering, still out to sea, looking along the River Dee. It remained here for exactly 15 minutes then suddenly shot UPwards and compeltely vanished.

Time scale from leaving mersey to arrival on River Dee, 4 - 5 seconds, Timescale from hover to vanish, 2 seconds. As it was being moved, it was not a cloud, nor was it a warpdriven balloon, nor was it the moon (wrong direction) - it WAS a UFO. This all took place in mid 70s.

Having always been open minded I myself, me sitting here, has seen a UFO. It was in the company of an entire night shift, standing on the roof of a high mill on Merseyside. Later, when our chargehand phone the local paper, they said they had received hundreds of sightings.

Get a map of merseyside before you. Observation point, mid wirral, at top of peninsula. Looking magentic north.

Scenario: Workmate comes in tells me and chargehand that "something funny going on across the river" - we ALL went up onto the roof and saw a large orange(ish) fuzzy ball floating out over the Irish Sea, distance unknown, hovering, apparently "looking" along the River Mersey. We estimated it had been there 7-8 minutes. After it had been there 15 minutes, it suddenly shot away across to our left and stopped dead, hovering, still out to sea, looking along the River Dee. It remained here for exactly 15 minutes then suddenly shot UPwards and completely vanished.

Time scale from leaving mersey to arrival on River Dee, 4 - 5 seconds, Timescale from hover to vanish, 2 seconds. As it was being moved, it was not a cloud, nor was it a warpdriven balloon, nor was it the moon (wrong direction) - it WAS a UFO. This all took place in mid 70s.

maybe a similar phenomenon to this red devil

http://www.control.com.au/bi2003/articles244/up4_244.shtml

My friend encountered a UFO when he was about 5.
He was sitting on a swing in the playground, when BAM, out of nowhere, something hits him in the face, knocking him off the swing.

After getting up and looking around, he didn't see anyone. No one was there, completely empty. He says it was a rock, and maintains that to this very day, but I think we all know better.

I agree that the "min min" lighting effects could account for the phenomenon I saw except for the split second timings and the obvious unnatural "control" of the object. It was not natural.

Roman, your friends experience could be more along the lines of the supernatural rather than ET giving him a smack. Sounds more like poltergeist experience than James T Kirk.

Sounds like Roman turned his friend into a strawman to me, hehe.

So the surviving crew member of a craft that had travelled perhaps millions of miles teaches us to use a rocket? Don't you think it would have shared some incredible propulsion device,instead of a refinement of von Brauns (not sure of spelling) V2?

O yea u bet they did however do you think NASA and the Air Force are going to go public with that technowledgy? O hell no they are using it for national security. I do believe that they have craft that do use advanced propulsion and they are often mistaken for UFO's.

The rockets are dangerous and costly however we maintain them to hide the other propulsion methods that we use from the rest of the world.

Rember world war II when we gave our troops inferior polish weapons because we did not want our advanced machine guns to fall in enemy hands?

Things have not changed and they do remain the same.

Here are two photos I took of a strange light over Saford Arizona with my Kodak 4330 digital camera they are not conclusive however the photos are taken less than 30 seconds apart and soon after the light vanished. It was late evening about 7 or 8 pm. I was north of Saford on HWY 191/70 about five miles outside of town. The light was East from my location and apeared to be over the City of Saford.

http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3615&stc=1

http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3616&stc=1

BTW there was not a cloud in the sky.

I edited this post after reviewing the group of photos that I took on the same day and It was during my return trip to Las Vegas where I was living from Alamogordo where we were visiting family. We were spending the night in Saford with my sister who lived in Saford at the time.

Starman, on another thread, if I recall correctly, you indicate an interest in science in general and physics in particular. These are worthy interests.
The only scientific content of your prior post, however, is the statement these are not conclusive. For these to be of any relevance to the readers here we need to know camera type (specific make and model), lens specifications, field of view, time of day and year, etc. Otherwise its just two out of focus shots of a moving light bulb.

Starman, on another thread, if I recall correctly, you indicate an interest in science in general and physics in particular. These are worthy interests.
The only scientific content of your prior post, however, is the statement these are not conclusive. For these to be of any relevance to the readers here we need to know camera type (specific make and model), lens specifications, field of view, time of day and year, etc. Otherwise its just two out of focus shots of a moving light bulb.

Sure It was about 8 Pm Friday evening and I was heading West twords Saford Arizona on my way to Las Vegas Nevada from Alamogordo. I am always on the look out for strange things. My camara is a Kodak Digital Easy Share DX4330. The Sky was clear and this object seemed to bright for the sky and to close to be a star. I regret not getting any of the sourunding terrain for refference However I rember I was on HWY 191/70 heading into Safford Just west of town comming down from the mountain range on the West side of town. I saw the light and it was moving around in the sky. I was about 5 miles outside of Saford and the object apeared to be obove Saford. I pulled the car over to the side of the road by a monument that honored the Mormans who settled the area and took these two Photographs before it disiapeared. I zoomed all the way in to get the closest shot my camara is a 3.1 megapixels 3X optical 10Xdigital zoom. That is all I can say about the photograph other than I did observe lights in Safford when I was there about a year prior to the photographs however I was not able to photograph them because I did not have my camera at the time. I do not know what the light was however Saford is a very remote place and at night due to low light polution the Sky is very bright. Saford is the location of the Telescope owned by the Vatican and the new LBT Large Binary Telescope that will see 10 times further than hubble, they are located on top of Mt. Gram just east about five miles from Saford Arizona.