U.S. does it again - SciForums.com

truth

09-17-03, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by dsdsds
How the hell can the UN truely represent the world community if any one of 5 single nations have the right to veto any decision? What disciplinary action is the UN going to impose on USA for going into Iraq?
I agree that the concept of a true "United Nations" is wonderful But in reality, today, it's only an illusion and I would go as far as saying it does more harm than good. Powerful nations use it to mask their murderous intentions.

how can it begin to be a true UN? First, get rid of the 5-permanent-member-veto-right bullshit. 1 nation = 1 equal vote. After that, the question still remains: how to enforce laws and decisions without military power?

One nation=one vote, so Chad's or Burundi's votes should equal the USs'? The US finances huge portions of the UN. The US has the largest economy, represent 300 million, leader of the free world, the only superpower, one of the largest militaries, and one place where if you don't like someone you can say so without being charged with a hate crime. The US is the largest donor of UN global humanitarian projects. The US contributes over 36% to these projects.

US contributions:
http://www.unausa.org/newindex.asp?place=http://www.unausa.org/policy/newsactionalerts/advocacy/usunfin.asp
http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance/assessmt/dues2000.htm
http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance/tables/reg-budget/percentassess.htm
http://www.genevabriefingbook.com/chapters/uscontrib.html

Humanitarian projects:
http://www.reliefweb.int/fts/reports/pdf/ocha_18_2003.pdf

dsdsds

09-17-03, 09:55 AM

Another important point. Any nation not respecting the UN and it's decisions should voluntarily leave, be suspended, or be kicked out.

US will never do that because, again, it is an important tool for them. It masks their vicious foreign policy.

dsdsds

09-17-03, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by truth
One nation=one vote, so Chad's or Burundi's votes should equal the USs'? The US finances huge portions of the UN. The US has the largest economy, represent 300 million, leader of the free world, the only superpower, one of the largest militaries, and one place where if you don't like someone you can say so without being charged with a hate crime. The US is the largest donor of UN global humanitarian projects. The US contributes over 36% to these projects.

Yes. The US OWNS the UN.

otheadp

09-17-03, 10:32 AM

UN is not an antiterrorist squad and it isn’t a single identity but the only legitimate voice of the international community, except to the narrow mind.

nobody's asking the UN to contribute to anti-terrorist efforts (that WOULD be too much, wouldn't it?)
just officially condemn suicide bombings of civilians.
how hard can that be?

Terrorism doesn’t have one face but hundreds, including state terrorism.
oh the demagogy...

Arafat ... can not be blamed by the birth of terrorist groups no more then the Israeli government by the birth of the Zionist group.
*you're equating suicide bombings to zionism?
*that statement you made didn't make much sense anyway

Spyke

09-17-03, 10:41 AM

Let's face it. The UN was created by the winners of WWII, the US, Britain, and the USSR. They allowed the two other main members of the Allies, China and France, to become part of the PSC and have veto power. These were the powers of the day and they wanted to insure that they gave themselves more power within the UN than the weaker states. Same principle as with the former League of Nations and the World Court; the powers-that-be that created these world bodies were not going to seriously give those entities the ability to challenge the sovereignty of the powers.

Ghassan Kanafani

09-17-03, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by Stokes Pennwalt
I don't see the reasoning behind the veto. It's not like the UN would ever enforce it anyway. We should have let it pass.

So if the UN would have enforced it , then you would see a reason to veto ?

The reason is obvious : Amerika is a slave and bitch of zionists .

This is the 40th time the USA veto's in favor of Israel , USA should understand that equalizing itself with Israel means to be judged as Israel .

NYC=capital of Israel .

Originally posted by Persol
To be honest, I don't see the resolution as actually meaning anything, whatever the outcome. That said, the US should have just abstained.

So as Stokes , you see a reason to veto if UN had enforced it ?

Originally posted by Clockwood
Everyone does whatever they wan't no matter what the UN says. Its not just us.

Then dont apply UN measurements on others . You have starved a million children in Iraq , nobody listens to the UN ?

Be consuequent for once , you cant because consequency is detail in your perspective , its all about the ethical egoism you apply on your nationalism for the pseudo-identity of an Amerikan , consequency cannot be accepted at your loss now can it ?

Devil mentality , a nice way to show Allah where corrections need to be made .

Originally posted by truth
You want to talk about getting crapped, you should look at the UN history and U Thant and throughout the 50s, 60s, and 70s. The USSR did everything they could to destroy Israel, armed the Arabs to the teeth.

Are we revising again so you can have peace with your slavery ?

The USSR sold out the Arabs through the acknowledgement with Israel in the first place , and no the USSR did not everything it could to destroy Israel , if that would be the case Israel would no longer be .

Originally posted by otheadp
UN has been traditionally anti-Israel.
thru history it kept bombarding Israel with complaints and resolutions about mistreatment of "palestinians" while conveniently ignoring terrorist attacks.

where was the UN 2 weeks ago when 15 people were killed in 2 suicide bombings?

the secretary general (coffee annan) calling them "deplorable acts" is hardly enough

Yes you are right we should have a special place for all the traumatized colonists , nazi's and fascist where they can come together and share the pain of being atyan , hebrew or evangelist in this cold and hard world full of terrorists that have taken on the identity of the starving , the poor , the oppressed , abused and killed .

The Palestinians have done less to you than the Jews have done to the Germans , your incredibly indoctrinated approach to measuring matters equal is beyond amazing Otheadp .

The numbers are there for everyone to see , look it up all the Palestinians that have died in compare to all Israeli's that have died , all Palestinians that got ethnic cleansed and all Israeli's that got ethnic cleansed , stop this pathetic bullshit .......

At least Jabotinsky was an honest man , you cannot even take responsibility for your actions .

Another lacking virtue for the swine-eating Jews .

Originally posted by Microzoft
Arafat is the (only) emblem of the Palestinian case and can not be blamed by the birth of terrorist groups no more then the Israeli government by the birth of the Zionist group.

Actually he can because Arafat is himself what you would call terrorist as he created Fatah and also from Fatah todays Al Aqsa Martyr Brigades originates .

Im sure he has no full controll of everything , he is a 74 year old man ......... one year older than Arik .

How can you say Israeli government has no relation to birth of Zionist groups ? Zionist groups are birth of Israeli government , Israel is by its defintion of a Jewish state (in Palestine) Zionist .

Moreover , todays Zionist Israeli government based on the Likud coalition has roots in what you would call terrorist as well , the Lehi and Irgun . Such leaders as Menechim Begin (Sharon's teacher) and Shamir have been PM and PS of the Israeli government (as late as 1986 even) as well as leaders of the terrorist groups Lehi and Irgun .

They are not ashamed of their "terrorism" they call zionism , neither are Arabs ashamed of the resistance the Palestinians peoples offer to the ravashment of their nation and peoples .

Call it terrorism , Arabs are proud of it as zionists are proud of their independance day and all the other days they conquered Arab land through ethnic cleansement .

I understand there is an issue of killing innocents , and ofcourse there is a debate in who is to be regarded innocent and who is not , but this complete demonization of Arab & Islamic resistance simply cannot be accepted because nobody is against this resistance .

Semantical arguments never convince peoples when the essence is praised and supported . Eventually the semantical change is acknowledged and people move on .

Ghassan Kanafani

09-17-03, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by otheadp
just officially condemn suicide bombings of civilians.

You are aware that not all hits have been civillian . And neither does civillian area decide weither civillians get hit or not . Non-combatant at the time is no excuse , IDF membership shifts the status of the person in question .

you're equating suicide bombings to zionism?

I sure hope he doesnt Hamas never even killed beyond 30 while zionism ethnic cleansed villages . Tens of thousands have died and hundreds of thousands got displaced .

Truth : One nation=one vote, so Chad's or Burundi's votes should equal the USs'? The US finances huge portions of the UN. The US has the largest economy, represent 300 million, leader of the free world, the only superpower, one of the largest militaries, and one place where if you don't like someone you can say so without being charged with a hate crime. The US is the largest donor of UN global humanitarian projects. The US contributes over 36% to these projects.

If it would be democratic as you love so much , the 300 M is what is relevant not the nation as an entity nor its economical or military status .

But its not , power rules and Im glad you show you have all the power , it makes you carry all the responsibilities as well so stop crying for 9-11's .

otheadp

09-17-03, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
You are aware that not all hits have been civillian.

MY freakin BAD :mad:
i guess when they blow up a pizzeria or a disco they're targeting the military personnel in those places eh?

those are the things that should be OFFICIALLY condemned by the UN with official resolutions. Kofi Annan calling them "deplorable acts which DO NOT HELP the situation" is a spit in the face of israel and every victim of terror. (and then they wonder why no one will take the UN seriously)
the arab states, led by syria had for a long time now resisted to call "suicide bombings" a crime against humanity.
they also resisted the creation of definition of the word "terrorism" cause that would expose them for what they really are (well, there's nothing to expose really, everything's pretty much clear already) - fanatical extremist regimes who like to hijack and blow things up.

Ghassan Kanafani

09-17-03, 12:25 PM

i guess when they blow up a pizzeria or a disco they're targeting the military personnel in those places eh?

When that personel is not minor nor elder , not religious nor Arab , it is member of the IDF , thus indeed military personnel .

is a spit in the face of israel

UN should spit at Israel alot more , how the hell are you trying to take on this victim role Otheadp ? You are not the victim in this entire conflict , you are the agressor . You are the one responsible for the tens of thousands of killings and murders , you are the one responsible for ethnic cleansement . You are not the one who has suffered such ethnic cleansemnet or murders , you are not the victim be an honest person and admit this .

the arab states, led by syria had for a long time now resisted to call "suicide bombings" a crime against humanity.
they also resisted the creation of definition of the word "terrorism" cause that would expose them for what they really are (well, there's nothing to expose really, everything's pretty much clear already) - fanatical extremist regimes who like to hijack and blow things up.

Be honest and call the peoples terrorists , because it is the peoples who support bombings regardless of those regimes you are talking about .

truth

09-17-03, 12:39 PM

Revisionist? Hehe, you funny, Ghassan!

Do you check with Arafat and Hamas before you post?

When that personel is not minor nor elder , not religious nor Arab , it is member of the IDF , thus indeed military personnel .

So basically, you say Pals get a free fire zone and any Jew is game. For all your claims of Israelis as Nazis, take a long look in the mirror and at your leaders.

Here is a list of the so-called soldiers you all have killed. Hope you are proud and get your virgins. Are you marching to Jerusalem as a martyr with Arafat?

http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0iky0

Ghassan Kanafani

09-17-03, 12:53 PM

Revisionist? Hehe, you funny, Ghassan!

To you I should be

Do you check with Arafat and Hamas before you post?

I am aware of the history of both , you arent even aware of their actual status .

So basically, you say Pals get a free fire zone and any Jew is game.

So the religious Jews are no Jews ? So in order to be a Jew , one must abandon Judaism yes ?

The minors are no Jews either ? The elders are no Jews either ? Arabs cant be Jews either ? Oh I forgot they transformed them into Hebrew :rolleyes:

For all your claims of Israelis as Nazis, take a long look in the mirror and at your leaders

It is pathetic that your point relies on my leaders ? They are not my leaders . I have no leaders . Dont think because I oppose your shits I identify with mine . Pathetic .

Asside of this , there is no compare , not that you wouldnt know any about is you have no historical awareness of these issues in anyways .

You should read the threads you post on :

Zionism , Anti-Semitism & Nazism (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=426288#post426288)

Here is a list of the so-called soldiers you all have killed.

Unlike you I recognize 2 sides :

http://www.rememberthesechildren.com/remember2000.html

Interesting how the ratio is 1 to 5 isnt it ?

Hope you are proud and get your virgins.

Keep your ignorance to yourself Jack

Are you marching to Jerusalem as a martyr with Arafat?

Only an idiot like you would have such a simplistic understanding of solidarity and assistance .

Why arent you in Iraq ?

567

09-17-03, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by otheadp
UN has been traditionally anti-Israel.
thru history it kept bombarding Israel with complaints and resolutions about mistreatment of "palestinians" while conveniently ignoring terrorist attacks.

where was the UN 2 weeks ago when 15 people were killed in 2 suicide bombings?

the secretary general (coffee annan) calling them "deplorable acts" is hardly enough

Oh boy UN anti Israel?? and next thing we hear will be usa anti israel?? then the whole world??........ are you guys ever happy? or are you all Curse by your GOD??

Flores

09-17-03, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by truth
Here is a list of the so-called soldiers you all have killed. Hope you are proud and get your virgins. Are you marching to Jerusalem as a martyr with Arafat?

http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0iky0

In case you were too chicken to answer Ghassan's post, I'm showing you again the link that Ghassan showed, the list of dead from both sides, a striking 5:1 ration, for every 5 palestenians that die, one Israeli have died.
http://www.rememberthesechildren.com/remember2000.html

As a mother, when I hear of the Brutal IDF soldiers on check points preventing a pregnant palestenian mother who is about to deliver from reaching a hospital, I want to scream, I want to blow up the damn check point. Does anyone know how painful, excruciating and deadly, it is for a pregnant woman to wait exposed to the elements bleeding and dialated without any proper care while she is about to deliver and on top of that get harrased by an IDF officer?.

skywalker

09-17-03, 02:20 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Flores

Who are you kidding Flores? Ever came across a Zionst who understands other people's pain? They don't care if they have to kill 100 Plestinains or any one else. As long as it serves their purpose, they will KILL.

truth

09-17-03, 02:20 PM

His posts are the same racist, anti-Jewish, Jews are Nazis every time. Same hate, different post. Kind of funny how the world ignores and condones everything that is anti- Jewish and allows the Palestinians a pass on everything.

I looked at the website and found it sad that there has been so much death for any side. Here's the difference. Jewish kids at a disco or in a bus. Palestinians attacking Israeli soldiers in large crowds, throwing stones, running around in the midst of gun battles with Palestinian terrorists. Someone is bound to get hit. How many of those Palestinians were involved in that or Hamas and Jihad leaders hiding behind them. The Jews didn't start the war or the Infatah, and when they fight back the world cries not fair. If Hamas, PLO, etc., quit murdering Jews and stayed in Gaza and the West Bank, the Israelis would be happy to leave them alone.

It is sad that anyone dies, but the Jews have been under constant, unprovoked attacks since the 40s in Israel, and for 2000 years.

Here is a nice article on the peace loving Palestinian people.

http://www.factsofisrael.com/load.php?p=http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000124.html

truth

09-17-03, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by skywalker
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Flores

Who are you kidding Flores? Ever came across a Zionst who understands other people's pain? They don't care if they have to kill 100 Plestinains or any one else. As long as it serves their purpose, they will KILL.

Yep, those Zionist Jews that were at the death camps, don't know a thing about pain and suffering. :rolleyes:

skywalker

09-17-03, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by truth
Yep, those Zionist Jews that were at the death camps, don't know a thing about pain and suffering. :rolleyes:

Exactly. They forget every thing pretty fast. It has only been 50 years. Now they would like others to suffer the same way. Very strange thinking they have.

Flores

09-17-03, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by truth
Yep, those Zionist Jews that were at the death camps, don't know a thing about pain and suffering. :rolleyes:

The zionist jews who were at death camps are either dead or in their ninties. The 20 year old IDF soldier stopping the pregnant woman from crossing does not know anything about pain and suffering. The women/children/sick/elderly standing as we speak on the check points being subjected to harrasment and torture and prevented from accessing hospitals are the reality of our present problems....dead jews at the hand of white christian Europeans 60 years ago are HISTORY, that doesn't justify additional suffering of innocent souls as WE SPEAK.

truth

09-17-03, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by Flores
The zionist jews who were at death camps are either dead or in their ninties. The 20 year old IDF soldier stopping the pregnant woman from crossing does not know anything about pain and suffering. The women/children/sick/elderly standing as we speak on the check points being subjected to harrasment and torture and prevented from accessing hospitals are the reality of our present problems....dead jews at the hand of white christian Europeans 60 years ago are HISTORY, that doesn't justify additional suffering of innocent souls as WE SPEAK.

Then here is some reading to help you out.

http://www.masada2000.org/arafat-plo.html

Flores

09-17-03, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by truth
I looked at the website and found it sad that there has been so much death for any side. Here's the difference. Jewish kids at a disco or in a bus. Palestinians attacking Israeli soldiers in large crowds, throwing stones, running around in the midst of gun battles with Palestinian terrorists. Someone is bound to get hit.

You are so sad. At least the jewish kids were enjoying themselves at the time they died. They were eating pizza and dancing disco. Do you know when is the last time one of those palestenian kids have ever had meat or celebrated their birthday with their kid friends? You wonder why they are all over the street? Perhaps they LIVE IN THE STREET, or the kids are sick and tired of being ordered to stay in their holes for 22 hours of the day, or they have no home. You wonder why they don't go to school? because they can only leave their homes two hours a day, no schools, no work, no life, but the Israeli lifestyle doesn't skip a beat. How fair is that? And a couples of mile away from all that rubble, a fancy construction company is building a new settelment for fresh from the field of russia jewish immigrant. I spit on the settelment and I throw rocks and anything else if I can. You dare judge the opressed Palestenians for throwing rocks on the illegal settelments? I commend any attack by the palestenians on Pizzerias and disco clubs. Why the hell should the Israeli's dance and eat while the palestenians rott in the rubble. Make the damn Israelis feel the heat for once, feel the loss of human life, feel, if they have any feelings left in them.

Stokes Pennwalt

09-17-03, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by Flores
You are so sad. At least the jewish kids were enjoying themselves at the time they died. They were eating pizza and dancing disco. Do you know when is the last time one of those palestenian kids have ever had meat or celebrated their birthday with their kid friends? You wonder why they are all over the street? Perhaps they LIVE IN THE STREET, or the kids are sick and tired of being ordered to stay in their holes for 22 hours of the day, or they have no home. You wonder why they don't go to school? because they can only leave their homes two hours a day, no schools, no work, no life, but the Israeli lifestyle doesn't skip a beat. How fair is that? And a couples of mile away from all that rubble, a fancy construction company is building a new settelment for fresh from the field of russia jewish immigrant. I spit on the settelment and I throw rocks and anything else if I can. You dare judge the opressed Palestenians for throwing rocks on the illegal settelments? I commend any attack by the palestenians on Pizzerias and disco clubs. Why the hell should the Israeli's dance and eat while the palestenians rott in the rubble. Make the damn Israelis feel the heat for once, feel the loss of human life, feel, if they have any feelings left in them. I think I understand your position. Non-violence is simply optional, so long as you claim to be unjustly oppressed, or whatever. Good idea. I should be getting paid more at my job. Tomorrow I'm taking my HK91 to work and shooting a few pregnant women in the stomach. That'll show them!

Here's the breakdown of the victims of your "freedom fighters":

http://www.ict.org.il/graphics/GraphPics/Summary__image001.gif

http://www.ict.org.il/graphics/GraphPics/Summary__image002.gif

One of these things is not like the other... (http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=440)

dsdsds

09-17-03, 03:34 PM

from your source (http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=440) :

"More meaningful figures show that Israel is responsible for some 733 Palestinian noncombatant deaths, while Palestinians have killed 546 Israeli noncombatants."

That is such a stupid "analysis" anyway. How did they define a "combatant" or "non-combatant" or (this one I like) "uniformed non-combatant". Although we can be relatively certain that most israeli bus passangers are "non-combatants ", how can they be sure that palestenians in the house they just blew up are "combatants" or (I also like this one) "probable combatants". idiot report

Ghassan Kanafani

09-17-03, 07:10 PM

Stokes Pennwalt

Are you even human at all ? Are you a machine ? Why then is that machine not programmed to MAKE A POINT with the along facts given or analysis made ?

Juche-machines dont go to college I see ?

Why dont you act like your God Don Radlauer (we should check his name on the Ordnungsdients & Kapos lists) and make a point , a conclusion deducted from your premisses .

This pattern of Palestinian deaths completely contradicts accusations that Israel has “indiscriminately targeted women and children.” It is clear that the vast majority of the Palestinians killed did not die as the result of random Israeli attacks on inhabited areas, or on mixed-sex crowds at roadblocks and the like.

You see with such a point there can be a debate or discussion revolving the validity of this specific point , you understand that without it there is nothing there can be an argument about .

Since Im not talking to Don Radlauer at this very moment due to his absence , I have to ask you to MAKE A POINT .

Let it even be the same if you can manage to copy/paste and apply his arguments in a logical manner in order to achieve such same point .

It wouldnt be that hard since its already done , mere selection skills is whats being required of you machine .

Or cant you even do that ? Can you prove not to be that lousy piece of scrap they rather sold to Saddam ?

Non-violence is simply optional, so long as you claim to be unjustly oppressed, or whatever. Good idea. I should be getting paid more at my job. Tomorrow I'm taking my HK91 to work and shooting a few pregnant women in the stomach. That'll show them!

You clearly understand that this is a little bit more serious than your issues with your first world paycheck , for instance would you ask me non-violently to please reconsider my activity's as I smack your mother in the face with MY HK91 ?

How many pregnent woman have died on the side of Israel and how many have died on the side of Palestine ?

GIVE THE NUMBERS mr fact and analysis , there is a POINT to be made .

Ghassan Kanafani

09-17-03, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by skywalker
Ever came across a Zionst who understands other people's pain? They don't care if they have to kill 100 Plestinains or any one else. As long as it serves their purpose, they will KILL.

They will kill because they consider their existance of their Hebrew of a higher value than any other person in the world , just like the Germans considered their Aryan an Ubermensch .

But at the very least they can be honest about their action , they can be honest about the consequences and when in discussion a zionist can be honest enough not to be an insult on anothers intelligence .

Colonization itself has its own explanation, integral and inescapable, and understood by every Arab and every Jew with his wits about him. Colonization can have only one goal. For the Palestinian Arabs this goal is inadmissible. This is in the nature of things. To change that nature is impossible.

Vladimir Jabotinsky 1924 : The Iron Wall , We and the Arabs (http://www.marxists.de/middleast/ironwall/ironwall.htm)

The nature is what is being questioned here , the nature of the Palestinian resistance is being demonized because it hurts the Zionist cause .

And when a PIG is hurt he screams and cries , regardless weither the hurt was in any proportion or his own fault .

Jolly Rodger

09-17-03, 07:42 PM

I love America go America
I want to be American so
I can be part of the biggest
terrorist organisation of them all

Ghassan Kanafani

09-17-03, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by truth
His posts are the same racist, anti-Jewish, Jews are Nazis every time

If you care for people to take your posts seriously , include an argument for your ridiculous , obnoctious and devellish accusations .

You just hate it that I dont hate Jews dont you Bubele ?

Im sorry Im not your simplistic opposite .

Find out how a Jew feels about you (http://www.koshernosh.com/sound/chalushi.wav)

Kind of funny how the world ignores and condones everything that is anti- Jewish and allows the Palestinians a pass on everything.

Only that world inside your head . That world that blames its captalistic missers on migration , its colonist consequences on primitive culture , and its massmurders on resistance to the love of Jesus .

Get out of here you shitty little baptist boy , get out of your Lousiana cottage and chase to catch your cows running away from the love of the lamb of God .

Yep, those Zionist Jews that were at the death camps, don't know a thing about pain and suffering.

Only zionists in death camps were KAPOS .

You obviously know shit about the history of zionisms function within the Reich , again you are to be told to read the threads you are posting on .

Rak B'Dam Tihje Lanu Haarez , (Eretz Yisroel will be ours only by paying with blood), but as far as our immediate circle is concerned, Atem Tajlu (you escape)

Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl shows us in an excerpt from MIN HAMETZAR the escape zionism makes from the holocaust as non-zionist Jews are being sacrificed .

Salli Mayer : What is happening in Poland are exaggerated stories. . . the way of the Ost Yuden (Eastern-Jews) . .always asking for money.

Izaak Greenbaum : If I am asked, "Could you give from the UJA moneys to rescue Jews, 'I say, NO! and I say again NO!

Zionists during the Holocaust (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=426289#post426289)

So I suggest you to shut your uneducated face on matters than you have no knowledge of .

Read Rabbi (Reb) Moshe Shonfeld : The Holocaust Victims Accuse: Documents and Testimony on Jewish War Criminals (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/onlinebooks/Holocaust_Victims_Accuse.pdf) and stop spreading ignorance .

Ghassan Kanafani

09-17-03, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by Flores
Why the hell should the Israeli's dance and eat while the palestenians rott in the rubble. Make the damn Israelis feel the heat for once, feel the loss of human life, feel, if they have any feelings left in them.

And that is the only thing Palestinians have been doing , the first suicide bombing was not untill 1994 (46 years already has Israel been cleansing and murdering as a state) .

A scratch now and then to wake the disneyland up and let her see her shit is destroying the neighbour that she chased out means little in compare to what has been done to the peoples of Palestine .

But Flores , I dont think any numbers , videos or whatever can change minds of persons who do not let their minds be decided by knowledge , but by a specific bias/personal relation they have with the issue .

Lie believes its the land of the Jews , Arabs have no rights not even if their Christian , and Jesus is coming soon when the prophecy is fulfilled and Israel "revives" .

Lie just doesnt understand that the zionists inhabiting the land have nothing in common with as well Hebrew Israelites as Judaism the religion .

Thats because hes stupid , he cant help it lets do as him as he is told and forgive :D

Ghassan Kanafani

09-17-03, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by dsdsds
How did they define a "combatant" or "non-combatant"

A combatant is a refugeecamp inhabitant with a rock and a non-combatant an israeli with a vote and service-duties .

All the non-combatants on the side of Israel are BY LAW included in the IDF-system as a member , unless they are Haredi (religious Orthodox) , Arab , elder or minor .

truth

09-17-03, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
A combatant is a refugeecamp inhabitant with a rock and a non-combatant an israeli with a vote and service-duties .

All the non-combatants on the side of Israel are BY LAW included in the IDF-system as a member , unless they are Haredi (religious Orthodox) , Arab , elder or minor .

Maybe you shouldn't throw rocks at a guy with a machine gun!

Ghassan Kanafani

09-17-03, 09:53 PM

Maybe you shouldn't throw rocks at a guy with a machine gun!

Maybe the guy with the maschine gun has no business being there .

Im happy you apply this destiniy manifest of yours on such issues , that way I dont have to hear u cry and scream like a scrof when theres some anthrax on those rocks that makes them fly all the way to your backyard in Louisiana .

Clockwood

09-17-03, 10:02 PM

I figure every time you throw a rock at anybody with a gun you automatically sign a waiver stating that you accept the risk you might get shot and there will be no hard feelings afterwards due to you getting your anus blown off. After all, you can't expect the gunman to just sit back and let you knock him senseless.

I certainly wouldn't expect to be able to get away with that no matter WHO is holding the gun. It could be a bankrobber, a police man, or a nun.

Ghassan Kanafani

09-17-03, 10:03 PM

Thanks for acknowledging the only language peoples like yourself understand is that of the sword .

Acid Cowboy

09-17-03, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
Thanks for acknowledging the only language peoples like yourself understand is that of the sword .

This coming from the guy defending people attacking soldiers...

Ghassan Kanafani

09-17-03, 10:08 PM

This coming from the guy defending people attacking soldiers...

I guess your advice is to walk into the gaschambers and gas ourselves isnt it ?

Tell me the immorality of self defence against murder-machines you call soldiers ?

Acid Cowboy

09-17-03, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by Flores
In case you were too chicken to answer Ghassan's post, I'm showing you again the link that Ghassan showed, the list of dead from both sides, a striking 5:1 ration, for every 5 palestenians that die, one Israeli have died.

This statistic is irrelevant for the purpose of determining who is actually right in this conflict.

Ghassan Kanafani

09-17-03, 10:10 PM

This statistic is irrelevant for the purpose of determining who is actually right in this conflict.

Only to a person who holds more value of one child over that of another .

Honesty is toomuch to ask I know

Acid Cowboy

09-17-03, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
Only to a person who holds more value of one child over that of another .

Only to a person who looks at things from an objective angle...

Who is right or wrong is an issue of morality/philosophy, not death tolls.

If during World War II the Axis lost 1000 of their own troops for every one member of the Allied forces they killed, would that make the Axis the good guys?

If the Israeli/Palestinian kill ratio were reversed, would you be claiming the Israelis were in the right?

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
Honesty is toomuch to ask I know

Logic is dishonest?

Ghassan Kanafani

09-17-03, 10:50 PM

Only to a person who looks at things from an objective angle...

Applying equal value of life within moral theory does not make it less objective .

Who is right or wrong is an issue of morality/philosophy, not death tolls.

Equal value of life is rather an element of the ethical theorie called utilitarianism , proposed by David Hume and developped by Jeremy Bentham & John Stuart Mill .

So really you are full of crap

If during World War II the Axis lost 1000 of their own troops for every one member of the Allied forces they killed, would that make the Axis the good guys?

The allied werent "good" also , and surely their future would not become any brighter either .

As for the Axis , for the sake of rationality lets judge something within its own ideological perspective rather than throw it in a pile and call it Axis .

Im sure you would do the same for NK Iran and Iraq :rolleyes:

The groups in that sense compared is completely meaningless and very ignorant , especially when it comes to a moral consideration .

And yes the death toll would play a rather significant part in considering one nation ethically different from the other , although utilitarianism would not be my only relevant method for applying ethics to man .

I would go for virtue just as well , obviously no virtue can be found in the porc-eating racist lyers who have ethnically cleansed and , colonized and occupies even today land beyond the land YOU even acknowledge them to posses .

If the Israeli/Palestinian kill ratio were reversed, would you be claiming the Israelis were in the right?

Surely not by defintion but in practice this would most probably be so . Such losses for Israel would mean its collapse . If it collapses it is no longer zionist , and if we take a look at the Balkans we see exactly how such conflicts develop , regarding peoples with heritage of an imperialist oppressor .

When that day comes let me know so you can have a point .

Logic is dishonest?

Dishonest is the denial that there is double measurement regarding peoples of Palestine and those of Israel .

If you have an ethical theory to apply your "logics" on please mention it and apply them so you can make a point .

Please dont say its Ayn .

Acid Cowboy

09-17-03, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
Equal value of life is rather an element of the ethical theorie called utilitarianism , proposed by David Hume and developped by Jeremy Bentham & John Stuart Mill .

So really you are full of crap

The argument is not over whose life is worth more. The argument is over whether or not losing a fight automatically makes you the good guy.

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
The allied werent "good" also , and surely their future would not become any brighter either .

As for the Axis , for the sake of rationality lets judge something within its own ideological perspective rather than throw it in a pile and call it Axis .

Just answer the question. Use an example other than World War II if you'd like, because it all boils down to the same question: Does getting your ass kicked automatically make you the good guy in the fight?

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
And yes the death toll would play a rather significant part in considering one nation ethically different from the other , although utilitarianism would not be my only relevant method for applying ethics to man .

So if Nation A decided they wanted to kill every single person in Nation B just for the hell of it, Nation B would be wrong for killing every invading soldier from Nation A? As the death toll for Nation A's soldiers mounted, eventually Nation B would become "evil" for resisting the invasion?

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
I would go for virtue just as well , obviously no virtue can be found in the porc-eating racist lyers who have ethnically cleansed and , colonized and occupies even today land beyond the land YOU even acknowledge them to posses .

I acknowledged whom to possess what?

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
Surely not by defintion but in practice this would most probably be so . Such losses for Israel would mean its collapse . If it collapses it is no longer zionist , and if we take a look at the Balkans we see exactly how such conflicts develop , regarding peoples with heritage of an imperialist oppressor .

You are trying weasel out of your own hypocrisy.

Forget about what might happen to whom at the hands of some third party. That's like saying it's wrong for a woman to use a stun-gun on a would-be rapist because somebody might steal his wallet while he's unconscious. Think only about the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians - about each groups motivations and arguments in favor of their position.

Concentrate.

Think hard.

Are you thinking really hard?

Good. Now answer the freaking question:

Yes or no: In your opinion, would the Palestinians become the bad guys and the Israelis the good guys if the kill ratio was reversed?

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
Dishonest is the denial that there is double measurement regarding peoples of Palestine and those of Israel .

There is no double measurement here. My point was and is that getting your ass kicked in a fight doesn't automatically make you a victim or a good guy.

Stokes Pennwalt

09-18-03, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by dsdsds
idiot report Touche. I await your data to the contrary.
Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
Are you even human at all ? Are you a machine ? Why then is that machine not programmed to MAKE A POINT with the along facts given or analysis made ?Oh yeah, I forgot, you're too busy to actually click on links people post, so it's easy for you to assume another's presentation is vapid and baseless. Good tactic!
The allied werent "good" also
http://webpages.charter.net/rylandpage/emot-lol.gifhttp://webpages.charter.net/rylandpage/emot-lol.gifhttp://webpages.charter.net/rylandpage/emot-lol.gif

dsdsds

09-18-03, 12:48 AM

Originally posted by Stokes Pennwalt
Touche. I await your data to the contrary.

Again, stupid report (http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=440) , trying to justify the higher palestinian casualties because a greater percentage of them were labelled "combatants". And according to this stupid paper, a 12 year old boy with a rock is the same level "combatant" as a jewish solder in a Merkava Mk III Main Battle Tank. I'm not disputing the data. I just think the conclusions hinting that:
1. palestinians are responsible for their own deaths by confronting the Israel army.
2. A greater % of jewish females were killed, therefor (somehow) A greater % of palestinians deserved to die.
..are a sickening and futile attempt to make Isreal the good guy.

Oh yeah, you await my data? pick any of the thousands of links to REPUTABLE sources on a a google search. Here's
one (http://web.amnesty.org/library/print/ENGMDE151452002)

dsdsds

09-18-03, 01:18 AM

Originally posted by Galt

So if Nation A decided they wanted to kill every single person in Nation B just for the hell of it, Nation B would be wrong for killing every invading soldier from Nation A? As the death toll for Nation A's soldiers mounted, eventually Nation B would become "evil" for resisting the invasion?

How wonderful it must be to see the world in black and white. It’s naïve and simplistic to believe that there is a “good guy” and a “bad guy” in any “fight”. let me bring it down to your level. People who kill other people are “bad”. If someone is strangling me and I’m holding a gun, I must make a decision whether to shoot the guy and be bad or be dead. Ideally, in a non-human world, I would shoot up in the air and startle him off me. Then I would CONVINCE him it is against both our interests for me to be dead – then we could live as neighbors in peace and harmony. The key word here is CONVINCE. CONVINCING him would require that I be willing to give up more than what I presume he’d be giving up.
What are you willing to give up for peace and harmony in all humanity? Your gas guzzling SUV?, Your house? Your land? Your God? Your freedom?

Microzoft

09-18-03, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by dsdsds
How the hell can the UN truely represent the world community if any one of 5 single nations have the right to veto any decision?Well, it can be argued the way a UN can truly represent the world community or better worded, how the UN can better (efficiently) represent the world community. Nevertheless with the 5 permanent members plus the additional rotating members its not bad for starters.
What disciplinary action is the UN going to impose on USA for going into Iraq?UN (world community) can not impose sanctions on US since the US cunningly capitalized on the interpretation and wordings of last resolution against Iraq. Thanks to the existence of a UN it is a fact that US aggressions in Iraq stands on the record. If other nations do not request a community action against the US, the UN can do nothing since (once again) it isn’t an identity of its own but an International Representation.I agree that the concept of a true "United Nations" is wonderful But in reality, today, it's only an illusion and I would go as far as saying it does more harm than good. Yes, for some it is an illusion in deed. But without it there could be no illusions,.. a nightmare!.Powerful nations use it to mask their murderous intentions.

how can it begin to be a true UN? First, get rid of the 5-permanent-member-veto-right bullshit. 1 nation = 1 equal vote. After that, the question still remains: how to enforce laws and decisions without military power? That’s right. With dozens different ways in improving the UN, the questions is how intelligently would the International community enforce (not laws) common agreements. As an example, with Israel and US having the record of violating UN resolutions in the last 50 years, the question would be, how the International community enforced their resolutions.

…But without the UN we wouldn't know the incidence and events for which Israel and US violated such numerous resolutions would we?

Ghassan Kanafani

09-18-03, 02:39 AM

Originally posted by Galt
The argument is over whether or not losing a fight automatically makes you the good guy.

Does getting your ass kicked automatically make you the good guy in the fight?

So if Nation A decided they wanted to kill every single person in Nation B just for the hell of it, Nation B would be wrong for killing every invading soldier from Nation A? As the death toll for Nation A's soldiers mounted, eventually Nation B would become "evil" for resisting the invasion?

My point was and is that getting your ass kicked in a fight doesn't automatically make you a victim or a good guy.

I wrote :

Death toll would play a rather significant part in considering one nation ethically different from the other , although utilitarianism would not be my only relevant method for applying ethics to man .

I would go for virtue just as well

How is your question not answered ? No indeed loosing/winning doesnt determine moral validation .

How is that of any relevance to what you say ?

This statistic is irrelevant for the purpose of determining who is actually right in this conflict.

in reply to the issue of 5 against 1 regarding children that have died since september 2000 ?

As all children are of equal value , how is statistics irrelevant then ? Tell us what have we missed ?

What is relevant ?

I acknowledged whom to possess what?

Excuse my assumption that you would acknowledge Israel as a souvereign state it is common nowadays and Im sure my "guess" wasnt far off in your case either .

Think only about the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians - about each groups motivations and arguments in favor of their position.

Yes or no: In your opinion, would the Palestinians become the bad guys and the Israelis the good guys if the kill ratio was reversed?

No , not by rule nor defintion . Again this is because utilitarian considerations are not the only ethical considerations to be made .

However as I said in practice such a blow would destroy the zionist state which will have consequences that probably would eventually make European or any other zionist Jews the victim rather than the oppressor they are today .

I merely brought in an example of how it happened elsewhere , I dont see how this has anything to do with hipocry or losing focus of the subject .

There is no double measurement here.

As your reply was directed at the 5-1 ratio regarding children with the premis that all children are equal in value , quantity is all that remains .

What other issues have relevance then ?

Ghassan Kanafani

09-18-03, 02:45 AM

Originally posted by Stokes Pennwalt
Oh yeah, I forgot, you're too busy to actually click on links people post, so it's easy for you to assume another's presentation is vapid and baseless. Good tactic!

You cannot tell me that you are this ignorant Stokes , I actually quoted from that link of yours and gave you a point as an example what to do with such data .

Look :

Why dont you act like your God Don Radlauer (we should check his name on the Ordnungsdients & Kapos lists) and make a point , a conclusion deducted from your premisses .

This pattern of Palestinian deaths completely contradicts accusations that Israel has “indiscriminately targeted women and children.” It is clear that the vast majority of the Palestinians killed did not die as the result of random Israeli attacks on inhabited areas, or on mixed-sex crowds at roadblocks and the like.

The link I was too busy to click so it would be easy for me to assume another's presentation is vapid and baseless , my good tactic (http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=440)

Perhaps you never got passed the clicking Stokes

Acid Cowboy

09-18-03, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by dsdsds
How wonderful it must be to see the world in black and white.

Many things in this world are black and white. Many other things are not.

Anyway, I wanted that little scenario to be black and white in order to eliminate the possiblity for weaseling out of giving a straight answer.

Originally posted by dsdsds
It’s naïve and simplistic to believe that there is a “good guy” and a “bad guy” in any “fight”.

It's politically correct nonsense to believe that there can't be a good guy or bad guy in a fight.

If I am walking to my car in a dark parking lot and a mugger jumps out and attacks me, how am I not the good guy in this situation?

Originally posted by dsdsds
let me bring it down to your level. People who kill other people are “bad”. If someone is strangling me and I’m holding a gun, I must make a decision whether to shoot the guy and be bad or be dead.

Killing someone in self defense doesn't make you bad.

Originally posted by dsdsds
Ideally, in a non-human world, I would shoot up in the air and startle him off me. Then I would CONVINCE him it is against both our interests for me to be dead – then we could live as neighbors in peace and harmony.

How would you convince him that it is against his interest for you to be dead?

Originally posted by dsdsds
The key word here is CONVINCE. CONVINCING him would require that I be willing to give up more than what I presume he’d be giving up.

Why should you give up anything? The strangler is in the wrong and you are in the right.

Originally posted by dsdsds
What are you willing to give up for peace and harmony in all humanity? Your gas guzzling SUV?, Your house? Your land? Your God? Your freedom?

I respect the rights of others and expect others to respect my rights. I refuse to give up anything - to pay protection money, basically - to ensure that I can life in "peace and harmony" with people who try to shake me down on a regular basis.

Acid Cowboy

09-18-03, 10:21 PM

I'm going to combine all my responses to one segment of your post, so I don't have to repeat myself.

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
No , not by rule nor defintion . Again this is because utilitarian considerations are not the only ethical considerations to be made .

The problem is that utilitarian considerations are mutually exclusive with any other ethical or moral conclusions.

If death toll determines right and wrong, that's it. Nothing else can be a factor lest you contradict yourself.

If you let your moral compass determine right and wrong, the number of those in the wrong killed while fighting is meaningless.

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
However as I said in practice such a blow would destroy the zionist state which will have consequences that probably would eventually make European or any other zionist Jews the victim rather than the oppressor they are today .

So from a utilitarian point of view, anything other than full sovereignty and a capable military for Israel would be unthinkable...but I'm pretty sure that isn't how you feel, as demonstrated by your previous comment of: "I would go for virtue just as well , obviously no virtue can be found in the porc-eating racist lyers who have ethnically cleansed and , colonized and occupies even today land beyond the land YOU even acknowledge them to posses ."

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
I merely brought in an example of how it happened elsewhere , I dont see how this has anything to do with hipocry or losing focus of the subject .

It shows how utilitarianism is completely incompatible with other moral considerations.

You seem like an intelligent guy, so I expected you to know better.

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
As your reply was directed at the 5-1 ratio regarding children with the premis that all children are equal in value , quantity is all that remains .

What other issues have relevance then ?

All things being equal, the lives of all children are equal in value. The problem with the 5 - 1 ratio is that we don't know if all other things are equal.

There is a clear ethical difference between shooting a 10 year-old who's throwing molotov cocktails and blowing up an infant on a bus. The former is self defense; the latter isn't.

dsdsds

09-18-03, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by Galt
Many things in this world are black and white. Many other things are not.

The middle east conflict is not black and white.

Originally posted by Galt
Anyway, I wanted that little scenario to be black and white in order to eliminate the possiblity for weaseling out of giving a straight answer.

whatever

Originally posted by Galt
It's politically correct nonsense to believe that there can't be a good guy or bad guy in a fight.

sorry don't know what moral ralativist is.

Originally posted by Galt
If I am walking to my car in a dark parking lot and a mugger jumps out and attacks me, how am I not the good guy in this situation?

He may have what he thinks is a ligitimate reason to kill you. What if you are Hitler? What if you killed his baby daughter and the rest of his family. etc. etc. etc.

Originally posted by Galt
Killing someone in self defense doesn't make you bad.

I believe it is always wrong to kill a person - Anyone, for any reason. The Law (which is the closest thing to Justice humans have) may excuse you for killing in self defence but it is morally wrong to kill or even harm another person.
The problem with "self defence" is that you can ultimately argue any killing to be an act of self deffence. Is a pre-emptive strike on a person may harm you one day, an act of self deffence?

Originally posted by Galt
How would you convince him that it is against his interest for you to be dead?

diplomacy

Originally posted by Galt
Why should you give up anything? The strangler is in the wrong and you are in the right.

Again, he thinks he is in the right too.

Originally posted by Galt
I respect the rights of others and expect others to respect my rights. I refuse to give up anything - to pay protection money, basically - to ensure that I can life in "peace and harmony" with people who try to shake me down on a regular basis.

This discussion is a metaphor to conflict between nations. The problem with humanity is that everybody refuses to give up anything. Groups on both sides of the conflict believe they are right. Sadly, they are both wrong.

Acid Cowboy

09-18-03, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by dsdsds
The middle east conflict is not black and white.

Who said it was?

Originally posted by dsdsds
He may have what he thinks is a ligitimate reason to kill you. What if you are Hitler? What if you killed his baby daughter and the rest of his family. etc. etc. etc.

I'm not Hitler and I haven't killed his daughter. Since, in this example (and in real life, since I mind my own business), I have done him no wrong, what he thinks has no bearing on what actually is right or wrong.

I would be in the right. He would be in the wrong.

Originally posted by dsdsds
I believe it is always wrong to kill a person - Anyone, for any reason. The Law (which is the closest thing to Justice humans have) may excuse you for killing in self defence but it is morally wrong to kill or even harm another person.

According to whose morals? I have no moral objection to killing for self defense; if someone has initiated force or the threat of force against me.

Originally posted by dsdsds
The problem with "self defence" is that you can ultimately argue any killing to be an act of self deffence.

Having an argument and having a logical argument are two completely different things.

Originally posted by dsdsds
Is a pre-emptive strike on a person may harm you one day, an act of self deffence?

Self defense is the use of force for the purpose of saving yourself from an immediate threat of initiation of force.

Originally posted by dsdsds
diplomacy

And if that doesn't work, you would willingly die at his hands?

Originally posted by dsdsds
Again, he thinks he is in the right too.

How do you know what he thinks?

And, again, what some lunatic thinks doesn't change what reality actually is.

Since you apparently believe that thinking you're right makes you right even when you're not, do you think criminals should be punished in any way? After all; if they're right, how can we justify punishing the "innocent"?

Originally posted by dsdsds
This discussion is a metaphor to conflict between nations. The problem with humanity is that everybody refuses to give up anything.

Why should those in the right have to give up anything?

Under your ideal circumstances, what is to stop a nation or group from starting conflict after conflict and immediately negotiating peace just to get a never-ending string of concessions from their enemies?

Originally posted by dsdsds
Groups on both sides of the conflict believe they are right. Sadly, they are both wrong.

Not necessarily.