http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4298408.stm

Last Updated: Friday, 30 September 2005, 16:25 GMT 17:25 UK


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Analysis: EU views on Turkish bid


By Jan Repa
BBC Europe analyst




Istanbul: Big reforms are required for Turkey to join the EU

Most EU countries officially welcome the prospect of Turkish membership: albeit at least a decade from now and subject to consistent evidence of Turkey's commitment to democratic values.

In contrast, public opinion in most EU countries appears, with varying degrees of intensity, to oppose Turkish membership.

Reasons cited for opposition include: Turkey's large population (70 million and rising fast); its relative poverty and doubts about its cultural compatibility with Europe. The French, Germans and Austrians seem especially unhappy with the idea.

Here is a breakdown of attitudes in some of the EU member states:

GERMANY: Opinion polls say up to three-quarters of the population oppose Turkish membership. Of the two largest political parties, the Social Democrats (SPD) say they want a "modern Turkey in the EU"; the Christian Democrats (CDU) oppose membership - proposing instead a "privileged partnership". Angela Merkel - the CDU candidate for chancellor - has appealed to EU leaders not to "encourage" Turkey.

FRANCE: Has the largest percentage of Muslims (7%) in the EU. Officially backs Turkey's membership bid. But Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin says Turkey must first recognise Cyprus. However, Nicolas Sarkozy - leader of the ruling UMP party and likely future presidential candidate - is opposed. Only 20% of public opinion says Yes to Turkey joining. A leading political pundit, Guillaume Parmentier, says: "The Turkish elite has been European for centuries; but the vast democratic expansion of Turkey involves Anatolian peasants, who are not European by culture, tradition or habit". The French have been promised a referendum after the conclusion of negotiations.


AUSTRIA: Opinion polls show 75% of 15-24 year-olds opposed to Turkish membership; rising to 82% among people over 55. This is the highest No rating in the EU.

NETHERLANDS: Has the EU's second largest Muslim population in terms of percentage (6%) after France - and is struggling to cope with the issues of religion, immigration and integration - particularly after the murder of film-maker Theo van Gogh. Remains strongly divided over Turkey.

BRITAIN: An enthusiastic supporter of Turkish membership. Foreign Secretary Jack Straw says Turkey in the EU would become "a beacon of democracy and modernity"; and a Muslim country providing "a shining example across the whole of its neighbouring region" - ie the Arab world. Turkish membership would disprove the "clash of civilisations" theory.

ITALY: Another strong supporter of Turkish membership. The government stresses historical links between Italy and the "Near East"; the need to "anchor" Turkey in the West; and the commercial opportunities offered by the Turkish market. Public opinion, while not particularly hostile, appears less enthusiastic - actual support for Turkish membership standing at below 40%.

POLAND: The largest of the 10 "new" EU members, who joined in May 2004 - with more than half of their combined population. 54% of the public support Turkish membership. Officials say Turkey would strengthen pro-American attitudes within the EU and consolidate Western influence on the approaches to the Middle East and the Caucasus. Poles also cite a history of close bilateral relations going back several hundred years.

SPAIN: A poll showed 33% opposing Turkish membership, but 42% in favour - as is the government. Back in June, following the French and Dutch rejection of the EU draft constitution, Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos suggested postponing the Turkish accession talks until a more advantageous time.

GREECE: was under Ottoman occupation for more than 400 years. Some Greeks still regard Istanbul as a "Greek" city. Another country where politicians and public opinion diverge. Opinion polls suggest only 25% of Greeks believe Turkey has a place in the European Union. The government, meanwhile, is keen to resolve bilateral tensions through Turkish integration. But it says the fate of Turkey's EU application depends, primarily, on the Turks themselves - especially where recognition of Cyprus in concerned. .

HUNGARY: was under Ottoman occupation for 150 years, in the 16th and 17th centuries. But there is little anti-Turkish feeling - around half the population supporting Turkish membership. However, like Austria, Hungary is also pressing the case of neighbouring Croatia: which, according to Foreign Minister Ferenc Somogyi, is "spectacularly further ahead" than Turkey on most accession criteria.

DENMARK: Strong public resistance to Turkish membership. Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen - until recently supportive - has been heard talking of "special partnerships" as well.

SWEDEN: Strong popular resistance. However, the government sees Turkish membership in terms of "supporting Turkey's reform process and increasing contacts with Turkish society" - as well as Swedish business opportunities.

***************

What is wrong with there, tiny minds in europe, to even consider, such *ucking madness, 75% of the public, in nearly all european countries, are against this lunatic idea.

70 million muslims, heading for where the UK probably, dont we have enough of a security nightmare going on there, without another 70 million to watch.
Our mad government is all for it, but if they had a referendum on it, the only people too vote, for the idea would be the muslim population.

There is a massive culture clash, going on all over europe, with there muslim populations, whether its to do, with banning muslim headgear, in schools, or muslims assassinating people who dare to be critical of islam, e.g. in holland,
and the massive security operations, going on all over europe, looking for muslim terroists, and sleeper cells.
so the answer to all these problems, is to import another 70 million muslims to europe, if we are so desperate to increase our populations, how about buddhists, the most peaceful religon on the planet.

Turkey has massive unemployment, some pay to get married to uk citizens, in sham marriages to get to the uk, so lets make it legal for them to come here, that way it can collapse the welfare state benefits, and the free national health service, and then we can all work 60 hours a week, to pay for all this madness.

Turkey get *ucking stuffed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As a libertarian, I am horrified at the idea that the world may one day have yet another giant "nation" like the USSR, USA, or PRC. The larger the government, the less connected it is to its constituents. More hubris, less accountability. More and more resources get siphoned off by a bureaucracy that provides less and less service.

What the world needs today is for the USA to break apart, not for Europe to frelling unite!

"More and more resources get siphoned off by a bureaucracy that provides less and less service.", Fraggle Rocker


I am just curious. Considering that Europe already has a far bigger bureaucracy than the United States that you say should break apart, how do you justify this position? The tax requirements that Europe pays for its bloated government are considerably more than the U.S., long before the EU was even a thought.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4303550.stm

Tense EU drive for Turkish deal

U drive for Turkish deal



Turkey is threatening to walk away from the talks

European Union foreign ministers in Luxembourg are racing against the clock to break the deadlock over Turkey's EU membership bid.

Late-night talks ended without agreement as Austria insisted the EU offer Turkey a privileged partnership as an alternative to full membership.


UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said failure to agree could harm relations between Christian and Muslim nations.
*************
"UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said failure to agree could harm relations between Christian and Muslim nations".

What relations with muslim nations, we dont bloody well have any, unless you can call, getting on well, with muslim enforced dictators, the entire arab muslim world, is run by dictators, and puppet leaders, we tried to make iraq democratic, but democracy does not work in the middle east, thats why they are all dictatorships, the citizens of these dictatorships, are often seen burning western flags, on the streets, such is the warmth, they feel for us.

Hungary is the only damn country in europe, up for it, the rest of europe does not want it, our tv screens are filled each day, with non stop islamic militant bombs going off around the world, iraq, bali, it comes to a point, that bombings, have no effect anymore, we have become immune to it, such is the saturation level.

what would be news is for a newscaster to say, and to day no islamic militants, set off any bombs in the world, these bombs have become, part and parcel of our day to day lives.

Its about time, european leaders listened to there people on this, we do not want 70 million muslims heading for our shores, unless there drowned.

and america has been railroading this idea, of turkey joining europe, because they owe turkey a favour, for its support in the iraq farce.
why does america, not open its doors to them, instead of pushing them off to us.

What the hell, has 70 million turkish muslims, got to offer the uk, well they bombed the british embassy in turkey recently,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3225508.stm


At least 27 people, including four Britons, died in Thursday's attacks

UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has called the bombers behind the Istanbul blasts "fanatics full of hatred".

He spoke as the Foreign Office warned other attacks were possible in Turkey. Police have also warned there could be an attack within the UK.

At least 27, including four Britons, died in the two blasts - both outside British targets - with 450 injured.


What jack straw, does not understand is that, with all muslims there religon comes first, then fellow muslims, then the rest of the world comes third, so when you import 70 million muslims, and your country is at war with a muslim country, these 70 million muslims become your enemy, the rest of the non muslim world, does not see religon this way, we put our families, and loyalty to our country first, religon plays a very minor role in our lives.

I am sick of hearing uk muslims, saying our brothers & sisters in iraq are dying, they do not have any blood family in iraq, only a religous family, religon is very, very, dangerous, when you consider 1 billion muslims, as one big family, we attack one muslim country, and then we have, 1 billion muslims hating us.

MUSLIMS HAVE TO REALISE HUMAN BEINGS, COME FIRST, NOT A RELIGON, WE ARE ALL EQUAL, MUSLIMS HAVE MADE RELIGON INTO A DIRTY WORD, AND THAT IS SO BLOODY SAD.

EU reaches deal on Turkey talks

The new document has been sent to the Turkish government, which is considering whether to accept it.

The BBC's Emma Jane Kirby at the talks in Luxembourg says everyone there is now waiting keenly for Ankara's response.

It is obvious how ignorant you are and see things the way you want to see.
It is also obvious that you did not study the economic impacts of Turkey joining EU at all.

I am really afraid of people like you who have IDEAS about some thing before having any KNOWLEDGE about it.

Since you were too ignorant to look up for the economical impact on this issue here is a study by Dr. Kirsty Hughes

Turkey and the EU (http://www.friendsofeurope.org/pdfs/TurkeyandtheEuropeanUnion-WorkingPaperFoE.pdf)

The impacts are not JUST economic! Dr. Kirsty Hughes also mentions the immigration impact into Europe ....and to some people, that's NOT a positive impact.

Baron Max

As a libertarian, I am horrified at the idea that the world may one day have yet another giant "nation" like the USSR, USA, or PRC.
Well, the EU is not aiming to be a superstate. It's more of a federation, with at present 25 member states which have considerable sovereignty over their own affairs. Only in those areas which have their common interest, does the EU have an notable influence.


The larger the government, the less connected it is to its constituents. More hubris, less accountability.
While this may be true, the EU still is, mostly, an organisation built on democratic principles. E.g. the European Parliament (empowered to block laws drafted by the European Commission) is directly elected by the population of the EU member states and the Council of Ministers (empowered to design laws and block European Commission decisions) consists of ministers which were on their turn put into power through elections in the member states.

More and more resources get siphoned off by a bureaucracy that provides less and less service.

The EU ensures open borders. It helped the development of Portugal, Spain, Greece and Ireland. It creates opportunities for newly developing Eastern European countries. It's a healthy balance against strong powers such as China and the USA. It created a single currency, opening up markets from Finland to Portugal.

Most importantly, though, the EU makes a violent conflict between the member states almost an impossibility. Given Europe's history, I think that on itself is an invaluable service.

What the world needs today is for the USA to break apart, not for Europe to frelling unite!

I can't wait for a more unified Europe, however, with the constitution being rejected by referendum in France and the Netherlands, the next logical step is put on hold indefinitely. Ironically, this constitution would have made the EU a more transparant organisation, with its citizens being able to excert more control over its policies through a more powerfull parliament.

As for Turkey. It's easy to think of it as an Islamic country, which would be incompatible with the rest of Europe. But, it would also be wrong in doing so. Turkey enjoys a well enforced seperation between state and religion. In addition, the EU should be open for all, regardless of the most popular faith among the population of a potential member state. If we deny countries, because the majority of its people subscribes to another faith, then we may just as well throw out our constitutions ensuring the freedom of religion.

Moreover, Turkey is a NATO country, and if trust them enough for our common defence, why should we not trust them with financial and economical issues as well? Assuming, of course, that the issue with Cyprus can be resolved.

As for the possibility of Turkish emmigration of labour to the West. Well, we need them. With an aging population, Western European countries need young blood to keep the economy going and the pensions funded.

Turkey, EU Reach Deal for Opening Talks
By ROBERT WIELAARD, Associated Press Writer (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051003/ap_on_re_eu/eu_turkey&printer=1;_ylt=AjYr.4RfLTOLzEySP7An_bFbbBAF;_ylu=X 3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-)

Turkey and the European Union governments agreed Monday to open membership talks after Austria dropped a demand that the bloc come to some form of partnership with Ankara that would be less than full-fledged participation.

Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul said his country had agreed to the EU's terms for opening the negotiations and that he would be coming to Luxembourg.

"We have reached agreement. Inshallah, we are departing for Luxembourg," Gul said as he left the governing party headquaters after a meeting chaired by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan. The Foreign Ministry said Gul left immediately for the airport.

Gul earlier had delayed his departure from Ankara, insisting his country cannot accept second-class citizen status in the EU.

Austria had been resisting the bid by Turkey, a predominantly Muslim nation, to join the EU and is demanding the EU grant Ankara something short of full membership in case Turkey cannot meet all membership obligations. Opening membership talks requires the unanimous approval of all 25 EU governments.

Diplomats said Austrian Foreign Minister Ursula Plassnik had relented, accepting language in the negotiating rules that state unambiguously that "the shared objective of the negotiations is (Turkey's) accession."

The diplomats spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the talks. No specific details were released about the deal, reached after hours of arduous negotiations that began Sunday.

Failure to start the membership talks would be seen as a serious blow to the credibility of the EU, which made Turkey an associate member in 1963 with the prospect of future membership. This year, the bloc saw its proposed constitution collapse when Dutch and French voters rejected it, while a nasty spat between France and Britain over EU funding in June left it without a budget for the 2007-13 period.

In Ankara, Erdogan said he spoke to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who voiced support for Turkey's bid to start membership talks. Erdogan said he maintained "hope until the last minute" that EU leaders would overcome the deadlock.

The issue of EU member Cyprus — which Turkey refuses to recognize — complicated matters.

A French diplomat said Cyprus demanded stronger language in the negotiating mandate to ensure Turkey does not use international organizations to hinder Cyprus. The diplomat also spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the talks.

In the past, Ankara has vetoed EU-NATO military exercises involving Cyprus, where Turkey props up a renegade Turkish Cypriot state that no other country recognizes.

Cypriot officials denied they sought additional demands.

Turkey belongs to NATO, the Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development and the Organization for Cooperation and Security in Europe. But its shaky human rights and poor economic past have kept it from becoming a full EU member.

In recent years, Turkey has implemented key political and economic reforms, and now wants the EU to make good on its promise to bring it into the bloc.

The EU's 24 other foreign ministers spent eight hours Sunday trying to sway Plassnik to endorse a negotiating mandate for Turkey.

The membership talks for Turkey are expected to last a decade, at least

Why should the European Union let an Asian nation into it's constituency? It's called the European Union for a reason, ya know...Europe becoming united.
For once they use logic, eh?

It's called the European Union for a reason, ya know...Europe becoming united
Thus, if we renamed it to Eurasian Union, you wouldn't have a problem?

On a more serious note, Turkey is bordering the Union, and even arguably a few percentage of its territory is considered to be European. Combine this with the considerable shared history and strategic European interests in that region, you shouldn't be surprised that the EU is not going to let this matter of semantics get in the way.

I think Turkey will make a fine addition in the long term, it has a lot of potential and will bring cultural diversity in the christian club, though it might bring considerable problems in short term.
If there ever is referendum for or against, I will vote for.

Thus, if we renamed it to Eurasian Union, you wouldn't have a problem?
'Course not. Just as long as the name fits with the memebers.

I think Turkey will make a fine addition in the long term, it has a lot of potential

Turkey?? Potential????? What Potential?????????

Turkey has ~62 million souls, not bad for a union where most countries have an aging population,
besides it's a voice against christian dominance (ballance is good), furthermore it's a cultural diversity and if successful the addition of Turkey will bring christian and islam worlds closer together, it has a potential of uniting different people and bring in fresh blood and ideas.

Turkey has ~62 million souls, not bad for a union where most countries have an aging population,
besides it's a voice against christian dominance (ballance is good),


So you say that Turkey is a voice AGAINST Christianity and yet you continue to say that it will bring these two religions closer together, make your mind up.


furthermore it's a cultural diversity),

Yes, we've seen the likes of Turkish diversity in Cyprus, not good is it.

and if successful the addition of Turkey will bring christian and islam worlds closer together),

And how will Turkey succeed in bringing the two religions together, has Turkey got a little secret that you are dying to tell us all about. Or shall we shout out the bloody obvious that it will be another foothold for Islam.

it has a potential of uniting different people and bring in fresh blood and ideas.

What ideas did you have in mind

So you say that Turkey is a voice AGAINST Christianity and yet you continue to say that it will bring these two religions closer together, make your mind up.
Christianity won't be the only religious vote anymore, that's all.
As for me, I'm a storng proponent of church seperation from state, but the world is not ideal when it regards politics.
And how will Turkey succeed in bringing the two religions together, has Turkey got a little secret that you are dying to tell us all about. Or shall we shout out the bloody obvious that it will be another foothold for Islam.
Hopefully cultures will just mix.
What ideas did you have in mind
I don't know, ask them, that's why it's a potential of 62 million potentially inventive souls.

Christianity won't be the only religious vote anymore, that's all.
As for me, I'm a storng proponent of church seperation from state, but the world is not ideal when it regards politics.

So you are a "storng proponent" of church seperation from state - so what is the use of Islam which is a faith that has its own governing law called Shariah. Islamic law is known as Shariah Law, and Shariah means the path to follow God’s Law. Shar’iah Law is holistic or eclectic in its approach to guide the individual in most daily matters. Shariah Law controls, rules and regulates all public and private behaviour. It has regulations for personal hygiene, diet, sexual conduct, and elements of child rearing. It also prescribes specific rules for prayers, fasting, giving to the poor, and many other religious matters.

So where do you stand on this?


Hopefully cultures will just mix.[/b]

Two Hopes - No hope and Bob Hope


I don't know, ask them.

I'm asking you -You made the statement

So where do you stand on this?
Turkey is a secular country.
Two Hopes - No hope and Bob Hope
I have no idea what you ment by that.
I'm asking you -You made the statement
Law of chance.

Turkey is a secular country.

Dream on - Turkey is 99% Islamic

I have no idea what you ment by that..

I'm not suprised really :rolleyes:

Law of chance.

You really haven't a clue what you are talking about. Let me repeat what Vincent28UK has to say a the very beginning of this thread. He describes the situation very well - especially here in the UK.

***************
Vincent28UK

What is wrong with there, tiny minds in europe, to even consider, such *ucking madness, 75% of the public, in nearly all european countries, are against this lunatic idea.

70 million muslims, heading for where the UK probably, dont we have enough of a security nightmare going on there, without another 70 million to watch.
Our mad government is all for it, but if they had a referendum on it, the only people too vote, for the idea would be the muslim population.

There is a massive culture clash, going on all over europe, with there muslim populations, whether its to do, with banning muslim headgear, in schools, or muslims assassinating people who dare to be critical of islam, e.g. in holland,
and the massive security operations, going on all over europe, looking for muslim terroists, and sleeper cells.
so the answer to all these problems, is to import another 70 million muslims to europe, if we are so desperate to increase our populations, how about buddhists, the most peaceful religon on the planet.

Turkey has massive unemployment, some pay to get married to uk citizens, in sham marriages to get to the uk, so lets make it legal for them to come here, that way it can collapse the welfare state benefits, and the free national health service, and then we can all work 60 hours a week, to pay for all this madness.

Turkey get *ucking stuffed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well said Vincent :)

Turkey has ~62 million souls, not bad for a union where most countries have an aging population,
besides it's a voice against christian dominance (ballance is good), furthermore it's a cultural diversity and if successful the addition of Turkey will bring christian and islam worlds closer together, it has a potential of uniting different people and bring in fresh blood and ideas.

"Turkey has ~62 million souls"
Turkey has 70 million souls.

"besides it's a voice against christian dominance"
You mean our countries, have to further remove all signs, of our religons, in schools, and government buildings to accomodate, these muslims.

'Turkey will bring christian and islam worlds closer together"
The more contact, we have with muslims, the more wars, we have, the more suicide bombers we have, we should be moving the opposite way, and removing this disruptive, negative religon from our countries.

"it has a potential of uniting different people and bring in fresh blood and ideas."
'Turkey will bring christian and islam worlds closer together"

When have muslims united religons, are you for real, they can not unite, there own religon what with, sunnis and shiaas, fighting eachother, there is no war going on inside western religons, where we are blowing up eachother, yet in pakistan they blow eachothers mosques up.

All through out the world, we are shown examples of muslims, refusing to live alongside other religons,

Thailand buddhists a daily fight with muslims.
phillipines catholics a daily fight with muslims.
india hindu a daily fight with pakistan muslims.
Iran muslims, fighting with minority christian and catholics.
indonesians fighting with minority christian and catholics.
lebanon muslims fighting with minority christian and catholics.

"Turkey will bring christian and islam worlds closer together"
Our religons are like anti-matter & matter, when we come together there is a explosion.

And why is the bitch, with a chip pan on her shoulder, and about as sincere as a rattle snake, condoleeza rice*why is she sticking her chip pan into it, christ america has the toughest laws on muslim militants, and now they are pushing 70 million muslims off to europe, what did they promise austria, to make them change there minds, is this the penalty europe is paying for not supporting the iraq invasion.

Whether you like it or not the accession talks for full membership have started :p

If you guys want the world to be a palce where civilizations will continue to clash then keep up with those racist ideas. Damn i hate racist and ignorant people

Dream on - Turkey is 99% Islamic



I'm not suprised really :rolleyes:



You really haven't a clue what you are talking about. Let me repeat what Vincent28UK has to say a the very beginning of this thread. He describes the situation very well - especially here in the UK.



So, saying that Turkey is 99% means that it can't be secular? What kind of a weird idea is that? Learn the term "secularism dude"

They say 99% of Turkey is Muslim but to be honest i don't think that the new generation is crazy about religion. It is a country where headscarf is banned in courts, schools, government buildings. It is also not bad being a Muslem or Christian country

Damn i hate racist and ignorant people

So do I - especially those who blew up the British Embassy, 7/7 London -those who murdered and injured innocent people in Bali , Madrid, 9/11 etc.
Don't you see a pattern here Overdose or are you blind.

Why should the European Union let an Asian nation into it's constituency? It's called the European Union for a reason, ya know...Europe becoming united.
For once they use logic, eh?
Russia is european, china borders russia, so why the hell can china be ruled out of europe, i would rather see buddhists heading for our shores than muslims, buddhism are the most peaceful religon out there, the chinese are the most hard working people, out there, i have never seen a chinese person claiming unemployment benefits in the uk, yet i have to fight through the queues of muslims, and indians claiming uk benefits, and if you live in london, you usually have to make your benefit claim, to a muslim woman in a hajib, christ i am british, and i have to ask for unemployment benefit from muslim woman in a hajib, what a sick joke, at least on the street, i can pretend i dont see them, but in a unemployment office, i have to look at this insult to my intelligence, a hajib in most westerners minds is a way of putting down the female, all they need is a dog leash to go with it.

So, saying that Turkey is 99% means that it can't be secular? What kind of a weird idea is that? Learn the term "secularism dude"

They say 99% of Turkey is Muslim but to be honest i don't think that the new generation is crazy about religion. It is a country where headscarf is banned in courts, schools, government buildings. It is also not bad being a Muslem or Christian country

I'm not a dude or any other of your ridiculous Americanisms. As for muslims I would prefer it if they could sort out their own problems in their own countries first without creating world havoc. Islam belongs in the Middle East, and there it should stay. You have your beliefs and I have mine. And my belief is that there will never be world peace as long as Islam continues its aim for world dominance. Its happening now, in Europe, open your eyes.

Whether you like it or not the accession talks for full membership have started :p

If you guys want the world to be a palce where civilizations will continue to clash then keep up with those racist ideas. Damn i hate racist and ignorant people
Yes yugoslavia, was another example of our religons, living happily alongside eachother,
It took the american army, and all of europe to pull, the muslims, and catholics, and christians, apart from eachother.
And nato is still there keeping the muslims seperate, from the other religons.

Is that rascist or ignorant?

It has been proven, time and time again, our religons, are not compatible, and it is ignorant, of you to ignore the bloody obvious, when it is staring, at you in the face.

I'm not a dude or any other of your ridiculous Americanisms. As for muslims I would prefer it if they could sort out their own problems in their own countries first without creating world havoc. Islam belongs in the Middle East, and there it should stay. You have your beliefs and I have mine. And my belief is that there will never be world peace as long as Islam continues its aim for world dominance. Its happening now, in Europe, open your eyes.
I agree with you 100%, the only religon at war with the world, and with itself is islam,
and islam is based on world dominance, there can be only one religon with islam, i will never forget muhammad ali*, one of my heroes saying on the michael parkinson show, that islam teaches the white man is the devil, how can there ever be peace between our religons, with such ridiculous ideas as that.

Turkey?? Potential????? What Potential?????????
The potential to evolve into a more prosperous country, giving the EU a window of opportunity in the East.

Yes, we've seen the likes of Turkish diversity in Cyprus, not good is it.
Fear mongering. It's an issue that needs to be resolved, but in the light of the accession talks, it can only be resolved peacefully. I think that's a good thing.

Dream on - Turkey is 99% Islamic
No. It's secular. Its population may be Muslim, but its laws, its educational system are secular in nature. That's a huge difference from an Islamic nation such as Iran. Turkey is one of the few examples where Islam can exist in a Western style state. We could learn from that.

muslims assassinating people who dare to be critical of islam, e.g. in holland
That's a bit of an overstatement. Muslims, in general, do not run around killing people. The Netherlands, nor the rest of Europe, did not plunge into a religious clash. I should know, I live there. True, there are problems and the dead of Theo van Gogh was tragic, but even our right wing government is able to understand that this was the act of an individual. It's estimated that 400 people in this country are "fundamentalist" enough to have the potential of extreme violence. Given that we have hunderds of thousands of immigrants, I can only conclude that the vast majority of Muslims are peacefull in nature.

Turkey has massive unemployment, some pay to get married to uk citizens, in sham marriages to get to the uk, so lets make it legal for them to come here, that way it can collapse the welfare state benefits, and the free national health service, and then we can all work 60 hours a week, to pay for all this madness.
Just like Ireland had massive unemployment. Your fears of mass emmigration to the UK are unfounded. It may even turn out to work exactly opposite: Turkish families may return to their fatherland, when it has become a stable and prosperous addition to the EU and moving between member states has been freed from visas and travel restrictions. Which would be unfortunate for us as Western European countries need immigrants to keep their economies going.

The more contact, we have with muslims, the more wars, we have, the more suicide bombers we have, we should be moving the opposite way, and removing this disruptive, negative religon from our countries.
Really? Turkey has been a NATO ally for decades. We have sworn to protect eachother. I don't think that a war with Turkey is likely. I even would go as far to say that it's extremely remote.

So do I - especially those who blew up the British Embassy, 7/7 London -those who murdered and injured innocent people in Bali , Madrid, 9/11 etc.
You let a few fundamentalists make up your judgement for whole population groups and countries? Then, truely, terrorism has won. If such blind attitudes would govern, we should have never admitted Ireland to the EU. You know, a country associated with the IRA.

I'm not a dude or any other of your ridiculous Americanisms. As for muslims I would prefer it if they could sort out their own problems in their own countries first without creating world havoc.
Please, give me an example how the Turkish are creating world havoc.

Islam belongs in the Middle East, and there it should stay.
Well, too bad. We grant freedom of religion, as long as it does not interfer with law and order. You want to attempt to question one of the most important articles of Western style constitutions?

And my belief is that there will never be world peace as long as Islam continues its aim for world dominance.
And how does Turkey fit in this? Are Turkish Muslims en masse running around the world blowing up buildings? No, they are not. Why judge a complete nation on what others have done?

Is happening now, in Europe, open your eyes.
Europe is changing, true. Either we adapt and prosper, or we spiral down in hatred. The latter we have tried before, it really didn't work out too well.

Turkey has ~62 million souls, not bad for a union where most countries have an aging population,
besides it's a voice against christian dominance (ballance is good), furthermore it's a cultural diversity and if successful the addition of Turkey will bring christian and islam worlds closer together, it has a potential of uniting different people and bring in fresh blood and ideas.
If we forcefully gave Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, and FYROM back to Turkey, that'd make them a bit more of a European country, and therefore elligible for EU membership.

Revive The Ottoman Empire! :D

AUSTRIA: Opinion polls show 75% of 15-24 year-olds opposed to Turkish membership; rising to 82% among people over 55. This is the highest No rating in the EU.
What else would you expect from a country that fought Turkey for nearly 800 years?

What else would you expect from a country that fought Turkey for nearly 800 years?
You make a good islamic ass kisser.

I'm a part of the public and I am for it, so there :p
If Turkey wants to join and meets the legal and economic criteria some time in the future, I see no reasons why it should not.
EU is not a Union of Countries in the name of Jesus, it's an international legal body.
mouse gave a very good reply

p.s. You dislike Islam chants? I have sung recitations from Quoran on mp3, they're quite beautiful.

You make a good islamic ass kisser.
No, I just don't care what religion one country is...but I do care of where it is geographically.

What else would you expect from a country that fought Turkey for nearly 800 years?

Blessed are the gates of Vienna

The potential to evolve into a more prosperous country, giving the EU a window of opportunity in the East.

Of course Turkey would prosper from the EU, and at the expense of wealthier European nations. Tell me - what would Europe gain from Turkey as a window of opportunity?


Fear mongering. It's an issue that needs to be resolved, but in the light of the accession talks, it can only be resolved peacefully. I think that's a good thing.

Not fear mongering - its a fact. If it can be resolved peacefully why hasn't it already been done? Because it cant and thats why Cyprus is a divided land and will remain so.


Turkey is one of the few examples where Islam can exist in a Western style state. We could learn from that.

Learn what? - that Islam exists in the western world. The western world already knows that, and paid a very high price for the knowledge.

What on earth could Europe learn from Turkey...lol :D


That's a bit of an overstatement. Muslims, in general, do not run around killing people.

Of all the religions on this planet - Muslims are the most violent.


It's estimated that 400 people in this country are "fundamentalist" enough to have the potential of extreme violence. Given that we have hunderds of thousands of immigrants, I can only conclude that the vast majority of Muslims are peacefull in nature.

Who estimated that??? Where did you get your figures?? I'll wager there's more than 400 fundamentalists in 5 square miles of where I live let alone the whole of UK.


Just like Ireland had massive unemployment. Your fears of mass emmigration to the UK are unfounded.

Not unfounded at all - they can't come here any way, well, not legally. The reason for that is because we are bloody well full up. No more immigrants thankyou.

It may even turn out to work exactly opposite: Turkish families may return to their fatherland,

Great!!!! What a good idea - hope the rest of them follow them back to their homelands.

Western European countries need immigrants to keep their economies going.

Western European countries need immigrants as much as you need herpes.

You let a few fundamentalists make up your judgement for whole population groups and countries?

No. its terrorism in the name of Islam that made my mind up.

Then, truely, terrorism has won. If such blind attitudes would govern, we should have never admitted Ireland to the EU. You know, a country associated with the IRA.

The IRA never tried to terrorise the world.


Please, give me an example how the Turkish are creating world havoc.

I said "muslims" - try to take notice of what you are reading before asking stupid questions


Well, too bad. We grant freedom of religion, as long as it does not interfer with law and order. You want to attempt to question one of the most important articles of Western style constitutions?

Islamic terrorism has done more than interfere with law and order - it has killed, maimed and created more worldwide fear than any other religion. What do you know about western style constitutions?


And how does Turkey fit in this? Are Turkish Muslims en masse running around the world blowing up buildings? No, they are not.

So what happened to the British Embassy and the HSBC in Istanbul - or shall we ask the Turkish Islamic militant group IBDA-C ?


[b][size=2]Europe is changing, true. Either we adapt and prosper, or we spiral down in hatred. The latter we have tried before, it really didn't work out too well.


Let me state the obvious here - you are a muslim living in the Netherlands, because only a person in that position could have such opinions as yourself.

By the way, I really like the Kerrang - great music!!! :D

Welcome Turkey.
Religion diferences ? Who cares!
By the way, Christianity, Islam and Israel have the same God. Just different prophets.
Also between the most of actual EU member states it was a long history of wars, even for religion reasons.
Greater European Union, better for all.

Welcome Turkey.
Religion diferences ? Who cares!
Muslims care

By the way, Christianity, Islam and Israel have the same God.
I cant believe you just said that. You confirm to me just how ignorant people are about Islam.

stu
very well said, you seem to have a talent like me, to open your eyes, and see what is happening in the world, you do not ignore reality, like so many in this forum.



comisaru
Registered User (21 posts)

Today, 01:56 PM
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Welcome Turkey.
Religion diferences ? Who cares!


I care, when those differences are responsible for blowing up trains, in the uk, and crashing planes into new york, and killing 250 spaniards on trains in spain.

These Religion diferences, are costing lives, thousands of lives, muslims are totally alienated from uk society, they do not fit in, most of them are unemployed, which only leads to more time, for there minds to be corrupted from loony clerics.

The muslims in the uk seem more interested in dictating, our foreign policy, than actually contributing anything worthwhile to uk society.

They dont seem to grasp, that the Uk is a democracy, we vote in our leader, and he aswell as parliament, make the decisions, we do not always agree with those decisions, but brits dont blow up trains, to vent our anger about it, some people call those suicide bombers brits, but they are not there loyalty lies only to islam.

you can not be a muslim, and claim to be british, when your 1st loyalty before even your family, is to islam, the uk suicide bombers, left a pregnant wife, another wife with kids, that in its self should tell you, there only loyalty in life, is to islam, and all else there family, or us are collateral damage, next to there obedience to islam.

We can’t blame all of them. Extremists are all over the word.

We can’t blame all of them. Extremists are all over the word.
Yes there are extremists, all over the world, but our religous extremists, are not crashing planes into the world trade centre, or blowing up trains in the uk and spain, what american extremists do, is attack abortion clinics, and kill doctors, i quote america here, because i have not heard of this stupid thing happening, in the uk.

Yes there are extremists, all over the world, but the islamic extremists are a danger to mankinds, very existence, abortion clinic attacks, can not be compared to mass killings of inocent people, travelling to work.

Turkey is not Iran or Pakistan

Turkey is not Iran or Pakistan
no it is not, but there are many terroist attacks in turkey every year, and the brit embassy, and brit biz in turkey, have been targets before, do we need to import these terroist attacks into the uk, because if they are targeting us in turkey, once they are allowed to live in the UK, i can only imagine, what fun with explosives, they will have.

and as far as i am aware, niether the brit embassy in pakistan or iran, has been a target for explosives, so your comparison to turkey, makes turkey all the more a poor choice, for being allowed to work and live in the UK.

Of course Turkey would prosper from the EU, and at the expense of wealthier European nations.
And in return, their market would open up to us, giving European enterprises easier access to 70 million potential customers.

Tell me - what would Europe gain from Turkey as a window of opportunity?
More direct ties with the Middle East, you know, where all the oil is. If the countries in the Caucasus start to develop, Turkey is a logical stepping stone into those emerging markets.

Not fear mongering - its a fact. If it can be resolved peacefully why hasn't it already been done?
The stakes are higher now. Turkey's accession is in danger, if the situation in Cyprus escalates. That's neither in the interest of the EU nor Turkey.

Learn what? - that Islam exists in the western world. The western world already knows that, and paid a very high price for the knowledge.
We can learn that a large Muslim population does not necessarily negate a modern state structure.

Of all the religions on this planet - Muslims are the most violent.
How do you concretely measure which religion is the most violent?

Who estimated that??? Where did you get your figures??
The Dutch minister of domestic affairs. You can find an English translation here (http://www.dnd.nl/showarticle.php3?newsID=15348).

Western European countries need immigrants as much as you need herpes.
"Japan and Western Europe are the two regions that are most confronted by severe population ageing in the near future. In these countries within twenty years the largest population cohort will be those over 65 and average age will approach 50.", from here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_population). So, who is going to do the work, if not immigrants?

No. its terrorism in the name of Islam that made my mind up.
And this terrorism made you take a stand against an entry of Turkey to the EU? That's all very well, but I just can not see the link between a few Saudi fundamentalists flying planes into the WTC and a reasonably moderate country as Turkey.

The IRA never tried to terrorise the world.
Does that make their actions less wrong or their methods significantly different? They did apply terror to an innocent civilian population. If we would have applied your methods of broad generalisation during the time of an Irish appeal of EU membership, we would surely not have taken them aboard. Fortunately, the powers that were didn't apply your type of reasoning and now Ireland has grown from an impovered state to an EU net contributor.

I said "muslims" - try to take notice of what you are reading before asking stupid questions
My excuses, but I perceived your argument as a part of an explanation why you didn't want Turkey in the EU. So, let me ask you once again: what violent acts do you fear from the general Turkish population? It's their accession which is on the table, not e.g. Iran.

Islamic terrorism has done more than interfere with law and order
And this is why we hunt down those responsible and put them to trial.

Let me state the obvious here - you are a muslim living in the Netherlands, because only a person in that position could have such opinions as yourself.
Wrong. I'm a native Dutch and an atheist above that. The motivation behind my opinion is simple, though. The marginalisation and destruction of rights of any population group, by playing on fear, I find unjust and inherently dangerous.

Blessed are the gates of Vienna
Vienna?
What?
Dude, I was born in Danville, Kentucky, and I live in Louisville, KY.

I cant believe you just said that. You confirm to me just how ignorant people are about Islam.
No, they're the same deity, they just have different ways they look at the fictional character Jesus.
Jews see him as a learned man who spoke of good philosophical things.
Christians see him as a messiah and revere him as almost a deity.
Muslims see him as one of many Prophets, of which Muhammad was the last.

We athiests see him as a charlatan, a tricky cult-master, and a traitor to the Roman Empire. Either that, or a person that really didn't exist, an almalgamation of several martyrs and members of a cult that became Christianity.

Vienna?
What?
Dude, I was born in Danville, Kentucky, and I live in Louisville, KY.

Read some history Hapsburg...

In less than 100 years, Muslim warriors conquered lands for Islam from Persia to Spain. Muslims then pushed further into Europe. Their incursion into Western Europe was stopped in France. Their invasion from the east was finally halted at the gates of Vienna.

You walked into that one so hard Hapsburg you must have severe concussion.

vincent, it is delightful to see that you have none lost none of your myopic, hate filled assessments of the muslim world. Your comments are always so insightfull. Sorry, incitefull.

And in return, their market would open up to us, giving European enterprises easier access to 70 million potential customers.

And a great percent of the 70 million potential customers will become immigrants - well mousey - you'll have to take them because were full in the good old UK.


More direct ties with the Middle East, you know, where all the oil is. If the countries in the Caucasus start to develop, Turkey is a logical stepping stone into those emerging markets..

Yes - who knows - Syria might the next one to join the EU then....lol :D


The stakes are higher now. Turkey's accession is in danger, if the situation in Cyprus escalates. That's neither in the interest of the EU nor Turkey..

And that will happen at the same time peace reigns in Isreal.....lol


We can learn that a large Muslim population does not necessarily negate a modern state structure..

Thats right - they are about 700 years behind the western ideas


How do you concretely measure which religion is the most violent?..

flying planes into the WTC


The Dutch minister of domestic affairs. You can find an English translation here (http://www.dnd.nl/showarticle.php3?newsID=15348)...

I was talking about here in the UK.... doh


"Japan and Western Europe are the two regions that are most confronted by severe population ageing in the near future. In these countries within twenty years the largest population cohort will be those over 65 and average age will approach 50.", from here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_population). So, who is going to do the work, if not immigrants?

Dunno - why dont you look it up in your wikipedia for an answer.

Like I said we are full in the UK. No more room at the inn, full to the brim, stacked to the rafters -do you comprehendi, si.


And this terrorism made you take a stand against an entry of Turkey to the EU? That's all very well, but I just can not see the link between a few Saudi fundamentalists flying planes into the WTC and a reasonably moderate country as Turkey.

Reasonably moderate for a muslim country yes. But terrible consequences for immigration matters. The Greeks are swamped with Turks in their country, ask any of them. The Greeks dont want them and neither do I.

You can have them though, plenty of room in "Hamm rud salam" (formerly known as Amsterdam)


Does that make their actions less wrong or their methods significantly different? They did apply terror to an innocent civilian population. If we would have applied your methods of broad generalisation during the time of an Irish appeal of EU membership, we would surely not have taken them aboard. Fortunately, the powers that were didn't apply your type of reasoning and now Ireland has grown from an impovered state to an EU net contributor.

When was Ireland an impovered state, you talk bollox.

It wasn't that long ago you stated that you didn't want the UK in the EU - you've a short memory too.

On yer bike mousey

The EU would be stronger if it did not include nations with vastly different economies and political objectives. Not only should Turkey not be part of the EU but Eastern Europe also should not be part of the EU. The UK has a different vision for the EU and is allied with the USA against the arising of a counterweight to the USA whether it be China, a united Islamic world or a French/ German led EU. The UK also should be kicked out of the EU so that the EU can look out for the best interests of it's people and function more like a nation.

Read some history Hapsburg...

In less than 100 years, Muslim warriors conquered lands for Islam from Persia to Spain. Muslims then pushed further into Europe. Their incursion into Western Europe was stopped in France. Their invasion from the east was finally halted at the gates of Vienna.
Eh. I'm tired. It just seemed, to me, like he was tossing a comment about where I might live, suggested by my user name, eh.
I need to eat breakfast more often.

And, yes, I know all that. Shut up. Shut up. :p

The UK also should be kicked out of the EU so that the EU can look out for the best interests of it's people and function more like a nation.
The uk people if offered a referendum, on leaving europe, i have no doubt would vote by a landslide to leave.

I like most uk citizens, know of the billions lost in corruption, in the EU, and now on top of everything else, third world europe, from poland to every other poverty stricken country, in europe, and now turkey, are being given the chance, to live in $600 dollars a week hotels, courtesy of the UK government, while we get them jobs, free medical care, free schools for there children.

Charity begins at home, i dont see why the UK, has to pick up the tab, for corruption, which is the root cause, of why these countries are poor in the 1st place.

and because english, is the worlds language, most of these paupers, want to live in a english speaking country.

And a great percent of the 70 million potential customers will become immigrants.
Ok, what kind of percentage did you have in mind?

Thats right - they are about 700 years behind the western ideas
I've the same notion about devout Christians, yet I would never think of that as an argument to put them out my country or refuse them entry.

flying planes into the WTC
Unless all who consider themselves Muslim claim that this was a justifyable act, I'm not going to condemn millions on the basis of the actions of a very minute few.

Dunno
You've about ten years to figure it out.

Reasonably moderate for a muslim country yes. But terrible consequences for immigration matters.
I remember how many had the same fears with the entry of Eastern European countries, almost a year ago. Are currently our social systems overloaded with Czechs and Latvians? Not that I know.

You can have them though, plenty of room in "Hamm rud salam" (formerly known as Amsterdam)
One of the best aspects of living in Amsterdam, is the colourfull diversity. Personally, I quite enjoy meeting a cross-section of the planet in just a single city.

When was Ireland an impovered state, you talk bollox.
"The state was plagued by poverty and emigration until the 1990s. That decade saw the beginning of unprecedented economic success, in a phenomenon known as the "Celtic Tiger". By the early 2000s, it had become one of the richest countries (in terms of GDP per capita) in the European Union, moving from being a net recipient to a net contributor and from a population with net emigration to one with net immigration.", from here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland). Yes, wikipedia again. Feel free to edit the article if you happen to have statistics proving otherwise.

It wasn't that long ago you stated that you didn't want the UK in the EU - you've a short memory too.
Where and when did I mention that? I welcome the UK's contribution, especially in budget negotations since I happen to agree with the UK's point of view that less funding should go to argiculture and more to research.

Ok, what kind of percentage did you have in mind?
As much as you can fit into your country - ours is full ~you never listen do you

I've the same notion about devout Christians, yet I would never think of that as an argument to put them out my country or refuse them entry.

Not many Christians fly planes into buildings

Unless all who consider themselves Muslim claim that this was a justifyable act, I'm not going to condemn millions on the basis of the actions of a very minute few.

So you turned a blind eye to all those muslims dancing and cheering in the streets as the news arrived. You have got a short memory.

You've about ten years to figure it out.

Me - just me - how about you. You go figure. The Inn is full in the UK - why do you never listen

I remember how many had the same fears with the entry of Eastern European countries, almost a year ago. Are currently our social systems overloaded with Czechs and Latvians? Not that I know.

You couldn't care less - because..... ;)

One of the best aspects of living in Amsterdam, is the colourfull diversity. Personally, I quite enjoy meeting a cross-section of the planet in just a single city.

Good for you old boy - a few more thousand would hurt the netherlands :D

Where and when did I mention that?

Dont give me that "Who Me?" business. Short memory!!

I welcome the UK's contribution

good for you. The British people don't want or need you or the EU.

especially in budget negotations since I happen to agree with the UK's point of view that less funding should go to argiculture and more to research.

To research what?????? How to kill off agriculture in Britain, because thats what has happened. Agriculture is not one of Netherlands strongest assetts is it -most of it is under water anyway.

I'll type this slowly - I know your not a good reader. The people of UK didn't want immigrants, and we do not need the EU. Thanks to the great government of UK - we end up with both. I know your going to say - the people voted them in, but we get told false promises and lies. Every time an election exists we get told the same old shit - no wonder hardly anyone goes out to vote these days. They all piss in the same bucket - we need something new in the UK. A party that listen and will stand up for the people.

. The people of UK didn't want immigrants, and we do not need the EU. .Never, ever presume to speak for me again. Clear?

stu43t, if you don't like the EU so much why doesn't the UK get out of it? :confused:
I agree though, EU has many flaws,
but at some time Europe will have to get together imo,
because of the USA, China, India, Brazil as major world powers. The empire days of the UK are over, no one European country can stand against/compete with the potential of those other countries.
At least together the countries of Europe have a chance to make Europe a better place, divided there is no future.

Never, ever presume to speak for me again. Clear?
I'm not speaking for you or anyone else. I'm stating facts.

When the first big wave of immigrants came in the fifties the people of the UK didn't want them. They came on the governments invitation, not the peoples.

You elect your parlament, it is the people - your representatives.
Or do you (people of the UK) constantly elect some aliens from another planet?

stu43t, if you don't like the EU so much why doesn't the UK get out of it? :confused:
I agree though, EU has many flaws,
but at some time Europe will have to get together imo,
because of the USA, China, India, Brazil as major world powers. The empire days of the UK are over, no one European country can stand against/compete with the potential of those other countries.
At least together the countries of Europe have a chance to make Europe a better place, divided there is no future.

I wish we could get out of it - the EU is one big White Elephant. The Uk is not wholly commited anyway - note the UK Pound is still with us rather than the pathetic Euro.

But you can get out of it, there's a clear procedure for a few years now.

You elect your parlament, it is the people - your representatives.
Or do you (people of the UK) constantly elect some aliens from another planet?

I often wonder if they are from another planet :D

So, where's the problem? Make a party, name it NoEU, win the next ellections (because all want out of it) and voila! you're the head alien.

So, where's the problem? Make a party, name it NoEU, win the next ellections (because all want out of it) and voila! you're the head alien.

Good Idea :)

Even better still - lets get the Middle Eastern countries together and create the MEU, and first on the agenda - equal rights. :D

Its a cracking idea, what do you think

That's for them to decide.

I'm not speaking for you or anyone else. I'm stating facts.
I am a citizen and rsident of the UK. I wanted the immigrants. You stated that the people did not. Are you trying to tell me I am not one of the UK's people.
I repeat do not presume to talk for me in future. It is offensive. If those are the facts - then please quote sources for those facts, otherwise I shall feel constrained to explain to people that you have a very small dick. After all, that is a fact, right.
Gosh, no it isn't. I have no source for it. Just as you have no source for your 'facts'.
There is an easy way to prove me wrong - produce a source. Any other approach is pure waffle.

I am a citizen and rsident of the UK. I wanted the immigrants. You stated that the people did not. Are you trying to tell me I am not one of the UK's people.
I repeat do not presume to talk for me in future. It is offensive. If those are the facts - then please quote sources for those facts, otherwise I shall feel constrained to explain to people that you have a very small dick. After all, that is a fact, right.
Gosh, no it isn't. I have no source for it. Just as you have no source for your 'facts'.
There is an easy way to prove me wrong - produce a source. Any other approach is pure waffle.

Do you want me to quote Enoch Powells speech of 68?

He is not all of the people, now is he? You cannot speak for all of the people, stu. Maybe a majority, but not all, never all.

He spoke what the majority already knew

But the majority is not all of the people. You said you were speaking for the british people...but you really weren't.

What a nitpicker you are. OK, I was speaking for the working class white ethnic native British people of the 50's and 60's - were you around then?

Do you want me to quote Enoch Powells speech of 68?You don't need to. I was there. That's not a source for 'the people do not want immigrants'. That's a source for 'Enoch Powell says the people do not want immigrants.'.

And, in relation to your remarks to Hapsburg,
I am British
I am white
I am working class
I was around in the 50's and 60's
And since when did such a narrowly defined group constitute the British people?

Whether you are right or wrong stu, you can't argue logically worth a damn, and that I find really offensive. If you have a belief in your argument at least learn to deliver it in a convincing, well supported, carefully presented manner. Otherwise you might as well just vomit your ideas onto paper. Oh, ....right... Yes..... I see you did.

Not many Christians fly planes into buildings
As recent as the seventies, in our countryside families refused to let their children take vaccinations. Ill stricken children were believed to be bearing God's righteous punishment. The point is: fanatical devotion that's way beyond the point of reason happens everywhere, and usually it happens in rather small quantities.

So you turned a blind eye to all those muslims dancing and cheering in the streets as the news arrived. You have got a short memory.
I'm shocked by any celebration of unjustified voilence targeted at innocents as you are, but mind you, I've not met a single Muslim actually praising the terrorist attacks in London, Madrid or New York. Those I've talked with are as appalled as we are and fear the consequences as populists use the grief for those who died as propaganda.

Me - just me - how about you. You go figure. The Inn is full in the UK - why do you never listen
Guess we'll just have to wait and see. Best wishes, though.

Good for you old boy - a few more thousand would hurt the netherlands :D
Indeed.

Dont give me that "Who Me?" business. Short memory!!
Why don't you give me a link to the post where I've supposedly said that. I backtracked my own posts, but couldn't find it. If it's there, I'd like the opportunity to correct myself.

The British people don't want or need you or the EU.
Let's hope it'll be a topic at the next election. I'm curious to learn what the majority of British do think about the EU. You and Vincent have a tendency to overshout everybody here, but I have my suspicion that you are not truely representative of the majority.

To research what?????? How to kill off agriculture in Britain, because thats what has happened. Agriculture is not one of Netherlands strongest assetts is it
Learn to use wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands): "The Dutch rank third worldwide in value of agricultural exports, behind the US and France". Agricultural is very much one of Netherlands' strong assets, at least partly due through research into efficient use of resources.

most of it is under water anyway.
I think you meant to write under "sea level". If anything, the Netherlands has a reputation of NOT getting things under water. In combination with your previous comments, I shouldn't be surprised that you've never bothered to learn something about your neighbours. Then really, how could I expect you to learn something about Turkey?

The people of UK didn't want immigrants, and we do not need the EU.
WWI and WWII illustrated the need for an EU quite clearly to me. It's in the best interest for the UK to take part in it, to secure, as best as it can, the finest of Anglo-saxon traditions.

A party that listen and will stand up for the people.
We had a party that was preying on exactly the kind of misplaced fear you seem to be propagating. During it's three months in power it crippled the country and ruined our chances of an early economic recovery before an utterly desperate coalition partner stepped out of the government, forcing a new round of elections. You want to elect a party based on irrational fear? Fine, it's your right, but the chances are it's not going to help your country at all.

You don't need to. I was there. That's not a source for 'the people do not want immigrants'. That's a source for 'Enoch Powell says the people do not want immigrants.'.

And, in relation to your remarks to Hapsburg,
I am British
I am white
I am working class
I was around in the 50's and 60's
And since when did such a narrowly defined group constitute the British people?

Whether you are right or wrong stu, you can't argue logically worth a damn, and that I find really offensive. If you have a belief in your argument at least learn to deliver it in a convincing, well supported, carefully presented manner. Otherwise you might as well just vomit your ideas onto paper. Oh, ....right... Yes..... I see you did.

Oh I see - you want me to provide logic as well as the truth

WWI and WWII illustrated the need for an EU quite clearly to me. It's in the best interest for the UK to take part in it, to secure, as best as it can, the finest of Anglo-saxon traditions.



What Anglo-saxon traditions?

Don't worry, Avatar the Terrible from Eastern Europe won't eat your children,
and although I like the UK quite much (been there three times, love London) I have no wish to go to places where I'm looked down upon. I have this idea of looking around the world a bit, so maybe Czech Republic won't have anything grave against an international rights major that I intend to get in a few years.

to secure Anglo-saxon traditions.
Dude, you're a racist.

What Anglo-saxon traditions?
Well, I usually agree with the UK's more open attitude to free trade, than e.g. France. I probably shouldn't have made that comment, it's going to drift us off-topic.

Dude, you're a racist.
You are joking? If not, how I'm a racist?

You don't need to. I was there. That's not a source for 'the people do not want immigrants'. That's a source for 'Enoch Powell says the people do not want immigrants.'.

And, in relation to your remarks to Hapsburg,
I am British
I am white
I am working class
I was around in the 50's and 60's
And since when did such a narrowly defined group constitute the British people?

Whether you are right or wrong stu, you can't argue logically worth a damn, and that I find really offensive. If you have a belief in your argument at least learn to deliver it in a convincing, well supported, carefully presented manner. Otherwise you might as well just vomit your ideas onto paper. Oh, ....right... Yes..... I see you did.

Just for you Ophiolite (Ophiolite a piece of useless rock) - figures...lol

Here's the link to Enochs speech if your that interested
http://theoccidentalquarterly.com/vol1no1/ep-rivers.html

The speech was followed by strikes, in particular in London's docklands, both in support and in opposition. Powell gained considerable support from the public, receiving over 100,000 letters and was supported by MPs such as Sir Gerald Nabarro.

Some supportive commentators attributed the surprise 1970 election victory by Edward Heath on the swing in Powell's West Midlands heartland, while other more hostile commentators have said that this speech alienated many immigrants from the Conservative Party.

Even today, the speech remains the subject of much argument and controversy, all the more so because Powell was highly regarded as one of Britain's most gifted politicians, albeit a maverick.

Many since the speech have instantly - and understandably - labelled his views as racist, and condemned them as such; others have interpreted the speech not as a fear over race, but as a fear that the clash of cultures would be too much for Britain's social infrastructure (a view that the events of the Brixton, Toxteth and Handsworth riots in the 1980s suggest were not entirely wrong). Since the 7 July 2005 London bombings,renewed fears that a serious clash of cultures might yet arise are being expressed.

Powell said 'I have set and always will set my face like flint against making any difference between one citizen of this country and another on grounds of his origin.' The public tend to agree with this statement.

The Trial of Enoch Powell, a BBC television broadcast two months after his death, a vote of the studio audience yielded a 64% 'not a racist' result.

I am a citizen and rsident of the UK. I wanted the immigrants. You stated that the people did not. Are you trying to tell me I am not one of the UK's people.
I repeat do not presume to talk for me in future. It is offensive. If those are the facts - then please quote sources for those facts, otherwise I shall feel constrained to explain to people that you have a very small dick. After all, that is a fact, right.
Gosh, no it isn't. I have no source for it. Just as you have no source for your 'facts'.
There is an easy way to prove me wrong - produce a source. Any other approach is pure waffle.

You are 1 citizen, of the Uk, no doubt a person, who hates capitalism, who thinks, that you can end poverty in africa, by sending them money, not realising, that the money ends up in swiss bank accounts.

Where have you been living, these past 5 years, every other day, the bbc is running reports, on uk citizens complaining about immigrants, michael howard the tory party leader, run his entire campaign on the immigrant issue, it was in the papers, everyday other the election peroid, if michael howard did not come across as another, upper class tory prick, who was about to dismantle the heath service, and shit on the working class again, he would have won on the immigrant issue.

michael howards biggest mistake was, making it a immigrant issue, when he himself, was a son to a illegal immigrant.


Labour know they are very unpopular, on the immigrant issue, they announced crack down after, crackdown, and new policies on illegal immigrants, during the elections.


Ophiolite!!!
Are you aware that unemployment offices, in the uk, are paying interpreters, 50 to 100 pound an hour, just so these immigrants can make there claim for welfare, in there own language.
Are you aware that 20% of the jail population, in womens jails, is made up of foriegners, home office facts.

Ophiolite!!! yes you are a uk citizen, but your opinion is in the minority, you obviously dont watch tv, or buy newspapers, or else you would hear how, the Uk citizens, are sick to death of our foreign parasites, living in the UK, bring in the tourists, but illegal immigrants, or third world europeans, we dont want.

The British government favours the ethnic minority way of life, and has rammed it down the throats of the British public in the form of political correctness, Islamic awareness days, multicultural events, etc.

It was years before any action was made against Abu Hamza who IN LONDON preached anti-west, burned the British flag and demanded an Islamic Britain along with terrorist rants. If it wasn't for American action that guy would be still on the streets chanting his filth without approach from the British law.

However if I were to do the same against Islam ~ I would be arrested on the spot and imprisoned (If I wasn't beaten to death by muslims first).

Spectators in other countries fail to see that the British government is so biased towards the ethnic minorities over the native white British,and this causes one hell of resentment.

Muslims are having drug based gang warfare in the cities of Britain today, muslims crimes against the whites are hushed up for fear of upsetting the racial applecart (It's going to go over anyway - reference to Enoch Powells speech).

Pink and purple Mosques spoiling the characteristic British landscapes. Muslim ghettos and no go areas for whites in British cities, don't forget that the British population is NINE times denser than the USA, the problems are much greater.

One way political correctness, unfair hand outs to immigrants who have done jack shit for this country when British pensioners who have worked all their life for this country are struggling to make ends meet. It all adds up to resentment.

Face it - if YOU moved lock stock and barrel into a foreign country and your new hosts had thoughtfully created an entire industry to do everything for you including wiping your arse, you'd fill your boots. That is what Britain is providing for the muslim population and other immigrants here.

And you wonder why there's resentment.

some one needs to get rid of England, end of story. May it be USA or France or Germany. World would be a better place without England. That country has caused more troubles and looted more than any other nation on earth. Thugs and robbers through out the history.

some one needs to get rid of England, end of story. May it be USA or France or Germany. World would be a better place without England. That country has caused more troubles and looted more than any other nation on earth. Thugs and robbers through out the history.

some one needs to get rid of slywanker -yawn....boring

some one needs to get rid of slywanker -yawn....boring


USA would do it eventually since u guys cant live like a civilized nation you need a regime change??

some one needs to get rid of slywanker -yawn....boring

He is incapable of debate, he is about as bright as a 2 watt light bulb, and constantly rants, stop calling my country, then starts to cry, stu if i were you, i would not respond to him, i dont mind people having a alternative point of view, but he has no views at all.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4305692.stm

Turkey at the drugs crossroads


By Sarah Rainsford
BBC News, Istanbul


Turkey sits at the centre of a drug-smuggling crossroads. Synthetic drugs transit from West to East, while opiates move in the opposite direction.




How drugs reach the UK

As a vast land mass that straddles Asia and Europe, Turkey is a highly attractive route.


According to the British Foreign Office, as much as 80% of all heroin used in Britain has come through Turkey.


So it is no surprise Ankara sits alongside Afghanistan, in the British government's priority list in terms of tackling trafficking.

********
80% of all heroin used in Britain has come through Turkey, it seems another good reason to keep these druglords, out of the UK.

Thread closed due to racism and personal insults directed at other posters.