Do you people accept what happened at face value?

Do you really think it was brown Muslims and Bin Laden?

Do some of the other startling facts bother you about CIA/Pentagon involvement in the attacks?

Personally, I've found the 'official' story to be riddled with holes and blatant lies and unfounded assumptions.
Hours after the towers went down, Bush was on TV blaming Al Queda/Bin Laden for the attacks. (Read: no investigation, no inquiry....immediately blame the brown Muslims: the easy target)

Reports about insider stock trading of the business affected (the airlines, the businesses in Towers 1 & 2)

Anyways, there are hundreds of other 'facts' that do not fit with the US government's official tale. What do you think? Was there any foul play? Was this done so the security of oil supply as well as security of Israel would be guaranteed with the ensuing war in the region?

Don't forget, the Oklahoma bombing was also immedietly blamed on brown muslims. But it ended up being an patriotic american (from my state :( )who did it.

Originally posted by kajolishot


>Do you really think it was brown Muslims and Bin Laden? (about WTC)

--- Having seen video of him boasting over how he got the idea for plunging the aeroplanes into the WTC, I'd say that I believe he has a substantial role in that affair.

While I've yet to see any evidence regarding the WTC that makes me think it was a conspiracy to commit the act, the events surrounding it do give me pause to consider whether it was allowed to happen - in the same way that evidence suggests pearl harbour was allowed to happen.

Regarding Oklahoma, evidence is now available showing that there were more than one bomb in the building and this casts doubt on the offical version of events.

--- Having seen video of him boasting over how he got the idea for plunging the aeroplanes into the WTC, I'd say that I believe he has a substantial role in that affair.

What video did you see ? You cant even understand Arabic you fartface , you know absolute shit all videos presented were hilarious . Only thing you have on him is that he was happy with it , well he wasnt the only one I can tell you that .

kajolishot

If we would consider actual capability , I would rather go for Mossad than CIA . I have heard (a rumor I havent seen serious proof) that the 3.000 Jews working in the WTC had the day off . Now before we all get on the denyal-tour , does anyone know of any accuracy in this ? Does anyone have actual profound theories on 9/11 ? Who does , pleas mention . Any interesting sites ?

Source: http://www.andre-hammon.de/artikel/wtc.htm
Is in German..I will post the abridged translation in a few minutes

Points worty of mention:

These are possibly the most convincing points, though, the entire article is VERY well written...as is expected of non-American media :) Needless to say, raising these questions in America would have god loving patroits shooting you and terrorizing you. Land of the free, indeed.

1. Terrorists, that want to remain anonymous, but clumsily leave behind clues: Around terror attacks the prevailing culprit organisations always respond and propagate their demands or ideologies (like the Red Army Faction, Guerillas, Suicide bombers in the Middle East, and so on). So it held also for Osama bin Laden. Only secret organizations don't announce or even allow single members to be known during their murder and terror actions. After the attacks of 9/11/01 no one came forth. The perpetrators wanted to stay publicly unknown. Nevertheless they were so careless that they left a car with the Koran and flight instructions in Arabic at a Boston airport, even though they knew that they would never come back to pick up this car. Something like that is only done by someone who wants to deliberately leave false clues.

2. Suspiciously quick war readiness:
Within the hour after the attacks President Bush, Jr announched that it had been islamic terrorists. Not only them, but also the countries that offer them shelter, USA is now declaring war. At this point in time there still wasn't the slightest evidence, and in spite of this Bush overhastily made statements of such worldwide political scope.

3. Doubtful evidence (1):
The evidence came rather quickly as called: It says that at a Boston airport there had been found a car of the terrorists. We learned also that there were two suitcases not checked in, coincidentally just the suitcases of the terrorists. Contents: Koran, Arabic flight instructions, a farewell letter with final instructions for the terror accomplices. That is highly unbelievable: a fanatical moslem wouldn't stow away his Koran in his suitcase that goes into the cargo hold. These professional pilots didn't also need Boeing manuals at the last minute. And they also didn't need cliched instructions as in the alleged farewell letter: "Test your weapons, test your knives ... Die with a smile on your face."

4. Doubtful evidence (2):
On Sept 13 the media announced that in the wreckage of the WTC there had been found a passport belonging to one of the terrorists. The exploding plane allegedly brought steel to melting. Can a passport made of paper fly out of this inferno without immediately catching fire? How big is the likelihood that only the passport of one of the terrorists escaped this?

5. The taping:
CNN had offices in the WTC, this never mentioned in their Nonstop-Reporting and had apparently also had no victims to mourn. CNN under chief Walter Issacson was so quick to the scene that they could readily transmit the second impact live. Later they showed also the tapes of amateurs who had by chance filmed the first impact. He had heard the noise of an airplane. But he aimed the camera not in the direction of the airplane, rather at the north tower of the WTC, so that the airplane flew into the tower which was centered in his lens. Which amateur would react at all to the noise of the airplane and in the process center the correct WTC tower with such striking anticipation?

6. President Bush saw the first airplane's impact before nine o'clock: At the official website of the White House two interviews are published with President Bush in which he is being asked how he felt when he heard of the attacks. On Dec. 4, 2001 Bush, Jr said, "I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower -- the TV was obviously on. And I used to fly myself, and I said, well, there's one terrible pilot. I said, it must have been a horrible accident."

8. Remarkably empty airplanes:
Flight AA 077: 289 seats, 64 passengers (3/4 empty)

Flight AA 011: 351 seats, 92 passengers (almost 3/4 empty)

Flight UA 175: 351 seats, 65 passengers (4/5 empty)

Flight UA 093: 289 seats, 45 passengers (4/5 empty)

Does American Airlines (AA) and United Airlines (UA) always fly with so few passengers? If so, they would've gone bankrupt long ago! Flights with less than 50% capacity are cancelled by all airline companies or are combined with flights of other companies, since no airline company can afford such a loss. Moreover long-distance flights (from the east coast to California) are dealt with, because empty airplanes on such a course represent an especially large loss. But even still: normally it never happens that airplanes are 75% to 80% empty! But here were four machines simultaneously underseated in this manner!

13. Ominous financial transactions with foreknowledge:
On July 26, 2001 a Mr. Larry Silverstein had leased the two WTC towers anew. This was awarded to him thanks to the arrangement of his Australian-Israeli partner Frank Lowy on very favorable conditions. Lowy is a friend of Lewis Eisenberg, one of the chairman of the New York Port Authority, the state institution which owned the WTC. Real estate speculator Larry Silverstein insured the WTC complex immediately for 3.55 billion dollars, which he will collect now with other bonus subsidies, as the media spokesman of his real estate group, Harold Rubenstein, publicly announced. Then 48 days after the lease termination with Eisenberg the WTC was but a mountain of iron, steel, and dust.

14. Unbelievable failure of the security systems of the Pentagon:
At 8:45 am the first airplane flew into the WTC, at 9:03 the second. At 9:30 Bush spoke of "war against America." Nevertheless at 9:47, an hour after the first strike, an airplane flies into the Pentagon, the best secured building in the world, which is in command of its own anti-aircraft rocketry and early warning systems. The strike on the Pentagon didn't happen unexpectedly. The airplane had strayed off course for an hour and in the entire nation, in particular with the defence forces, the highest level of alarm had taken hold at the latest from 9:03 on.

..I was just about to mention the "curious" pasport..thnx Kaj.
I mentioned this in an earlier thread a while back, but no one took up the batton.
;)

A site of interest in relation to this:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/wot/sept11/default.html

Originally posted by Jihad_AlifLamLamHah
kajolishot

If we would consider actual capability , I would rather go for Mossad than CIA . I have heard (a rumor I havent seen serious proof) that the 3.000 Jews working in the WTC had the day off . Now before we all get on the denyal-tour , does anyone know of any accuracy in this ? Does anyone have actual profound theories on 9/11 ? Who does , pleas mention . Any interesting sites ?

...yeah this was one of the big "things" to come out post 911, I have a few relatives stateside who rubbished it, I too am trying to find some info re this.

would be very interesting.

Re Mossad, yeah you're right there, but I do think UBL is woven into the framework in this, I think he did have some involvement, but he was just the monkey, we have yet to find out who the organ grinder really was/is;)

Originally posted by bhudmaash
..I was just about to mention the "curious" pasport..thnx Kaj.
I mentioned this in an earlier thread a while back, but no one took up the batton.
;)

Yeah, isn't that quite interesting? A paper passport survived the inferno of that much burning petrol but yet the steel towers did not.

What bothers me is the treatment of peoples of islamic faith. Mainly because we have no proof (none that the government is willing to give us). Second, the "9/11 investigation comitee" was selected by Bush and Chaney. Third, the older Bush is/was chief of the CIA. Therefore, the Bush family has direct access to everything CIA related. To what end, I can only speculate....but knowing the Bush family's background (look it up on Google) I will say their intentions are not for the good of America.

yup.
The thing with consp theories regarding 911, is that ultimately the buck stops with the Pent/washington. Now we have to ask ourselves would the organgrinders in the Pent/washington really condsider sacrificing 3,000 odd innocents to further their cause (whatever that may be)????????:eek:


PS: Re: the brown muslims dude, what about the chinese, black, and caucasian muslims??!;) :D

Great link Sparks.

I do not dobut they used/framed the peoples of Islam because everyone would believe it without much question, but remember, Mr. Bin Laden is an ex-CIA operative.

Perhaps that's the reason he has not been found yet. Though, no one in America asks that question anymore. Soon, no one will ask what happend to Saddam and will be preoccupied with whatever Bush wants to demolish next.

Now I know where the people who used to start all those 'we never went to the moon' threads went...oh well, at least they're out of the science sections.Does American Airlines (AA) and United Airlines (UA) always fly with so few passengers? If so, they would've gone bankrupt long ago! Flights with less than 50% capacity are cancelled by all airline companies or are combined with flights of other companies, since no airline company can afford such a loss.Lord, you're a moron. Where on earth did you get the idea that airlines cancel or recombine flights that don't have many people on them? I mean, are you just parroting something that you read on some other kook's web page? I fly all the time, and there have been several occasions on which I've traveled on a plane that was nearly empty - just me and a few other passengers, plus a bunch of bored stewards and stewardesses, who sit around at the front of the plane with nothing to do. Now if you were going to try to hijack an airline with knives and box cutters, wouldn't it make sense to pick a flight that didn't have many people on it?

Originally posted by kajolishot
1. Terrorists, that want to remain anonymous, but clumsily leave behind clues:

Or it could be that criminals are really really stupid.

2. Suspiciously quick war readiness:
Within the hour after the attacks President Bush, Jr announched that it had been islamic terrorists. Not only them, but also the countries that offer them shelter, USA is now declaring war.

I recall it taking a few weeks before anything happened.

3. Doubtful evidence (1):

How do you know what they were thinking? Maybe they even wanted to leave clues behind so that the stoopid Americans know who did it.

4. Doubtful evidence (2):

It is very possible. The passport could of flew out of the plane, after all only certain parts blew up. Meaning that other parts got blown up after the first parts blew up. Giving the passport plenty of time to fly out a hole... A big gapping hole. Also, I've never heard of this before.

5. The taping:

Because the noise was coming in that direction! I've never heard of this either.

6. President Bush saw the first airplane's impact before nine o'clock:



8. Remarkably empty airplanes:
Flight AA 077: 289 seats, 64 passengers (3/4 empty)

Flight AA 011: 351 seats, 92 passengers (almost 3/4 empty)

Flight UA 175: 351 seats, 65 passengers (4/5 empty)

Flight UA 093: 289 seats, 45 passengers (4/5 empty)

If so, they would've gone bankrupt long ago!

Yes, they do. And they went backrupt shortly after. The airlines were already struggling.

13. Ominous financial transactions with foreknowledge:
On July 26, 2001 a Mr. Larry Silverstein had leased the two WTC towers anew.

How very odd. Considering that insurance policies are renewed on eralestate every few years or so.

14. Unbelievable failure of the security systems of the Pentagon:


Yes, very unbelievable. But take into account that something like this has never happend before. (Oh yeah, and look at Pearl Harbor. We screwed up real bad there.)

Goofyfish,

Seriously move this thread to Pseudoscience.

Yes, very unbelievable. But take into account that something like this has never happend before.

While it's very easy to snicker "conspiracy theory" and dismiss this, there are a few questions that frankly, I've not found satisfactory answers to as yet.

1) Jet fuel at it's optimum fuel:air ratio burns at 835 degrees centigrade. Structural steel melts at 1538 degrees. How did a fuel-rich (and therefore cooler) fire melt something that's not supposed to melt until the fire reaches twice that temperature?

2) How did a random event like a fire cause such a regular collapse in the WTC? Note that the towers collapsed vertically - not by falling to one side or the other noticably.

3) Why, after hearing that the second plane had flown into the second tower, did Bush sit still for five minutes listening to kids reading? (Source (http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/bush-911.htm))

Now none of these questions point at a "conspiracy", but I would like to know what the answers are - wouldn't you?

(Oh yeah, and look at Pearl Harbor. We screwed up real bad there.)
That's not quite so clear-cut either. Hell, even that god-awful US military propaganda piece of a series JAG once covered this. :rolleyes:
(btw, it was 3 am, I was suffering insomnia and the only alternative was watching sky news... that's my excuse for watching JAG and I'm sticking to it...)
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/wot/sept11/fabrications.html

Originally posted by CounslerCoffee
Or it could be that criminals are really really stupid.

Yet the are smart enough to bypass all security and disable FAA tracking on planes and navigate their way around to mainland Manhattan.



I recall it taking a few weeks before anything happened.


Ofcourse, Pentagon does not have a Sci-Fi teleport method to move troops yet.


How do you know what they were thinking? Maybe they even wanted to leave clues behind so that the stoopid Americans know who did it.

Did you even read anything that's been posted? If that was the case, then a group would have taken responsibility of the act. We see it happen time after time in Isreal/Palestine


It is very possible. The passport could of flew out of the plane, after all only certain parts blew up. Meaning that other parts got blown up after the first parts blew up. Giving the passport plenty of time to fly out a hole... A big gapping hole. Also, I've never heard of this before.


Go watch the impact video again and then try to prove how the paper could have "flown" off the airplane. The integrity of the plane was intact until....well...you know. Also, you should really read CNN and other newspapers that covered this fact.



Yes, they do. And they went backrupt shortly after. The airlines were already struggling.


No they don't. They consolidate/charter passengers onto other carriers if planes are this empty and are flying across the country. Any logical businessman would tell you the same. This is simple economics.
They went bankrupt because of the public fear of flying after the fact.


How very odd. Considering that insurance policies are renewed on eralestate every few years or so.

And I'm sure transfer of ownership also happens every few years or so.


Yes, very unbelievable. But take into account that something like this has never happend before. (Oh yeah, and look at Pearl Harbor. We screwed up real bad there.)


I thought that's why our military budget is so high compared to other social programs? So we are ready for the cases that have not yet happened? I thought NORAD has capability to track anything flying anywhere on the globe, mainly North America. The planes were reported "missing/suspicious" LONG before they reached Manhattan



Goofyfish,
Seriously move this thread to Pseudoscience.
:bugeye:

Sparks:

2) How did a random event like a fire cause such a regular collapse in the WTC? Note that the towers collapsed vertically - not by falling to one side or the other noticably.

there was a really good program on brit TV a while back going into detail about the architecure, and the speciific structural methods used in the WTC buildings, and how they collapsed the way that they did....cant remember the specific details (damn, should have recorded it)..but it was facinating.

I think it was on channel4, wondering if u may have seen it?

Originally posted by kajolishot
No they don't. They consolidate/charter passengers onto other carriers if planes are this empty and are flying across the country.
They went bankrupt because of the public fear of flying after the fact. This is so retarded I don't really even know how to answer it, other then to point out again that I fly often and on several occasions I have flown on airliners that were nearly empty. The Minneapolis-Orlando flight in particular often has few people on it.

Originally posted by Nasor
This is so retarded I don't really even know how to answer it, other then to point out again that I fly often and on several occasions I have flown on airliners that were nearly empty. The Minneapolis-Orlando flight in particular often has few people on it.

Not as retared as the reply, but
I, too, have flown where lack of passengers lead to cancellation of the flight and transfer took place onto another plane. So, do not be quick to discount something as uneducated and 'retarted'.

If that reason seems 'false' to you, then move on. Don't try to make this whole thread about something so irrelevant.

While it's very easy to snicker "conspiracy theory" and dismiss this, there are a few questions that frankly, I've not found satisfactory answers to as yet.

1) Jet fuel at it's optimum fuel:air ratio burns at 835 degrees centigrade. Structural steel melts at 1538 degrees. How did a fuel-rich (and therefore cooler) fire melt something that's not supposed to melt until the fire reaches twice that temperature?

2) How did a random event like a fire cause such a regular collapse in the WTC? Note that the towers collapsed vertically - not by falling to one side or the other noticably.

3) Why, after hearing that the second plane had flown into the second tower, did Bush sit still for five minutes listening to kids reading? (Source)

1) even if you dont melt the steel, you weaken it considerably when there is heat, with That much heat, the steel would be soft enough to succumb to the enourmous weight above it, notice how the tower that was hit lower fell first even if it was the second hit.

2)well, i guess the same answer as above, also, the main structure in the WTC that held it up were the walls. Most weight was carried down the walls while the internal structure held up less. So when you knock down the walls on 2 opposing sides, and weaken the steel on the inside, the tower now has no side supports and middle support, so it falls down vertically, to make it fall on one side, id think you need to knock down the steel supports on that wall...I dont know for sure, but thats what i can make from watching 3 documentaries on the thing

3) well, you dont just rush out on the children and panick or disconcert them, if ur in the middle of a story, you dont want the kids to be traumatized that "the brave little toaster" didnt have an ending and have them focus on Why it didnt have an ending... I know if i was little and the prez was reading me a story, if he didnt finish it, i would be a bit put off.

=)

Nevertheless they were so careless that they left a car with the Koran and flight instructions in Arabic at a Boston airport, even though they knew that they would never come back to pick up this car.

This is a very good point . I am a bit familliar with the trail of thought Islamic fundie activists (in Euro) have , you can be sure that a mistake so careless as this one isnt a mistake they would make . They have techniques of deception so amazingly genius that to make an error like this one doesnt make sense one bit . These are peoples who give you blinded sunglasses and an empty big box to make your "walking" look normal considering the situation they propose . Leaving cars with Qu'ran & flight instructions is a serious joke , Im wondering wich one is more hilarious than the other .

So Counseler : Or it could be that criminals are really really stupid. . They're not , really not in the least bit . You would agree if you would know something about them .

How do you know what they were thinking? Maybe they even wanted to leave clues behind so that the stoopid Americans know who did it.

Psychology and knowledge of their system makes you know what they were thinking .

It is totally stupid to leave such obvious PUBLICITY clues and not MAKE it public by simply claiming it . Real clues aint like that man , these are hollywood-clues .

Within the hour after the attacks President Bush, Jr announched that it had been islamic terrorists. Not only them, but also the countries that offer them shelter, USA is now declaring war.


It is obvious and known that the war on Afghan had little to do with attacks , it ws decided before 9-11 . Bush obviously played the political show he was supposed to play , if he (they) was a bit smarter he would present his case a bit differently (not so hasty) , but I guess they betted on the possibility of not being believed , a very very stupid bet .

Counseler :
recall it taking a few weeks before anything happened.

Happened yes announced no .

coincidentally just the suitcases of the terrorists

This goes in the same line of that car only even dumber .

Koran, Arabic flight instructions, a farewell letter with final instructions for the terror accomplices

farewell in his suitcase ? So this is supposed to show that he intended the suitcase to be there ? With he Qu'ran ? With the instructions ? How hilarious

a fanatical moslem wouldn't stow away his Koran in his suitcase that goes into the cargo hold.

Not even I would

These professional pilots didn't also need Boeing manuals at the last minute

Totally ridiculous to do so , makes no sense whatsoever .


Test your weapons, test your knives ... Die with a smile on your face


What weapons other than knives (I believe plastic ones even) ? Obviously this letter is published , anyone a link ? I think its a very relevant piece of paper .

On Sept 13 the media announced that in the wreckage of the WTC there had been found a passport belonging to one of the terrorists. The exploding plane allegedly brought steel to melting. Can a passport made of paper fly out of this inferno without immediately catching fire? How big is the likelihood that only the passport of one of the terrorists escaped this?

This point is fits in the one-in-a-gazillion section , what a joke . If I would be jmaking such jokes , id come up with the entire identified body , so at least you have something when peoples actually believe your shit .

Also , wasnt it so that about all identities of those supposed hijackers were false ? Ive heard this before , Im not sure how to put this in perspective . Any thoughts ?

Couns
It is very possible. The passport could of flew out of the plane, after all only certain parts blew up. Meaning that other parts got blown up after the first parts blew up. Giving the passport plenty of time to fly out a hole... A big gapping hole

Have you lost it ? Do they have that "section" that didnt blow up ? Is everything in that section still intact ? Please provide some backup otherwise we're back to 1-in-gazillion .

Which amateur would react at all to the noise of the airplane and in the process center the correct WTC tower with such striking anticipation?

I say this point is quite irellevant , what does it imply ? That the taper knew ? Who was the taper , thats much more relevant .

Couns :
Because the noise was coming in that direction!

WHAHAHAHAHA

I said, it must have been a horrible accident

Im not getting this point ....... :confused:

Remarkably empty airplanes:

But this doesnt prove anything in any direction . Fundies would want as many peoples and as much fuel , why would anyone else want something different ?

However it is remarkable as this proves it :
If so, they would've gone bankrupt long ago! Flights with less than 50% capacity are cancelled by all airline companies or are combined with flights of other companies, since no airline company can afford such a loss. Moreover long-distance flights (from the east coast to California) are dealt with, because empty airplanes on such a course represent an especially large loss. But even still: normally it never happens that airplanes are 75% to 80% empty!

I fly all the time, and there have been several occasions on which I've traveled on a plane that was nearly empty - just me and a few other passengers, plus a bunch of bored stewards and stewardesses, who sit around at the front of the plane with nothing to do.

Nasor , this is really the stupid point . Just because you happened to been on some flights who were less seated it doesnt mena that its normal for them to be so , your statement is not only very irellevant but it also disproves totally what you yourself propose about the other .

However Nasor , this is a good one :
Now if you were going to try to hijack an airline with knives and box cutters, wouldn't it make sense to pick a flight that didn't have many people on it?

Only its not completey correct . You see it might be very handy to have a full plain rather than an empty one because masses mostly act out like a unity , while empty holes tend to lead to individualistic action . In short , in a full plane it would be less likeley for someone to try something than in an empty one , so although your point is very nice , the opposite point is just as good . Leading us to nothing .


Mr. Larry Silverstein


Silverstein ? LOL

Eisenberg,

Eisenberg ? LMAO

Rubenstein

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Unbelievable failure of the security systems of the Pentagon

They didnt expect it (even though they should based on various reasons) , and they ARE idiots ............ this I dont find very surprising or suspiscious .

Buhd :
yeah this was one of the big "things" to come out post 911

Silvy Ruby & Eissie dont dont do them much good bro ....
I want names and numbers , why cant we get somewhere all the exact facts . If there is no (or hardly any) Jewish name with the victims , then we hit gold bro , GOLD . Oh my if such a thing would come out in NYC en-masse & be accepted , it can be whatch this point very very closely in the future . In the meantime , can anyone provide some research material ?

Re Mossad, yeah you're right there, but I do think UBL is woven into the framework in this, I think he did have some involvement, but he was just the monkey, we have yet to find out who the organ grinder really was/is

I really wouldnt know anymore , he could be very easily he wa sthe first guy I thought of as well when it happened (oh no first was mossad but I was questioning my sanity regarding this at that time , lol) . It could be co-op , ity could be only UBL , it could be only Mossad . Abdi once posted some theory (be it by a racist but ofcourse we aint judging content by sources) with this Mossad-stimulation and foreknowledge (at the very least) , and that they knew I am totally convniced of if anyone knows anything its them .

Kaj
Second, the "9/11 investigation comitee" was selected by Bush and Chaney

Whahahaha this is so funny .

buhd
Now we have to ask ourselves would the organgrinders in the Pent/washington really condsider sacrificing 3,000 odd innocents to further their cause (whatever that may be)????????

Without a doubt they would .

Mr. Bin Laden is an ex-CIA operative

This shoves the deal a bit in some CIA-operation , and I really dont know if those guys are fit for such shit ........ maybe Im heavily underestimating Amerikans because of their totally retarded Euro-colleagues who cant even conspire a cookie .
:p

Now I know where the people who used to start all those 'we never went to the moon' threads went...oh well, at least they're out of the science sections.

I really hate it when peoples shove an entire subject that easily in their "conspiracy" section of what they consider laughable , its really really sad Nasor . And all that on that one single point of yours ?

Couns :

Goofyfish,
Seriously move this thread to Pseudoscience.

Maybe we should YOU there . Moving this thread there while its obviously political is totally corrupt , totally .

I don't believe the US or Israel acutally did the attacks. But I think the US let is happen so PNAC could get off the ground.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/911timeline2pg

Very interesting read.

Carnuth,
1) That's possible - but the problem is that we don't know how much the steel was affected by the impact. No-one does. FEMA had no analysis done, the rubble was carted off and dumped and the steel was sold off as scrap - all with no analysis performed. As a result, we'll never know how hot it became and how much it damaged the steel supports.
Not only is that in and of itself a questionable act, there is the added incredulity caused by the circumstances of the disaster - namely, that it was the worst attack on US soil by a foreign group ever. There is the additional point that the WTC towers were designed to be capable of withstanding the impact of a 707 - and that their collapse was totally unexpected by civil engineers. As such it represents a significant flaw in our understanding of civil engineering if the offical version of events is fully correct - and an analysis should have been carried out.

2) That might explain one of the tower's collapse, but not both - remember that the two impacts were different in nature, as shown here ('scuse the source, but the diagrams are accurate enough given scale):
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/psyopnews1/northtowerpath.jpghttp://www.serendipity.li/wot/psyopnews1/southtowerpath.jpg
Given the two different impact patterns, I'm just curious as to how both towers could collapse in a manner so similar to each other - and to most footage you've seen of controlled demolitions of buildings.

As to 3) - are you kidding? The US is attacked, two planes have hit the WTC towers, a third is heading towards washington DC, a fourth is not responding to the FAA and the President just sits there? Hell, I'm just surprised the Secret Service didn't have him in a car thirty seconds after the second plane hit...

hmmm...well, i guess ur right in that there are a bit too many uknowns...also, for #3, remember, this is George Bush were talking about

Well, yeah, it's Bush - but the secret service are reasonably competent ...

Sparks : beautifull sketch , but just for the record : You're not gonna tell me north was hit #1 and south #2 are you ? If so , Id like to ask , the second tower collapsed first , didnt it ? If he second tower is south , then wé have a serious issue . But I might be misunderstanding .

The south tower, the second one hit, was the first one to fall as I recall jihad.

Well, 800 degrees C is a temp they use for recrystallisaiton, so it woudl be serioulsy weakened by such a temperature. But i was udner the impression that firstly, a lot of the foam insulation on the supports ahd been blown off by the impact, adn secondly that it hadnt been sprayed on as thickly as it should have been.

The otehr point i read about was that it shoudl have been obvious taht the planes had been hijacked due ot their change in course, and regulations apparently require launching of a military fighter jet to eyeball it and escort it. Yet that wasnt done, not after the first plane hit.
So, nobody followed regs in this case, aparently. So monumental F*** up, or official let it happen?

i have no idea which is the most likely.

Why do you keep saying "brown" Muslims? referring to a persons tan-line prior to religious belief seems a little silly to me and adds no information.

As to 9/11 I just don't think it was all that hard to do. Any idiot and a couple nutters could have pulled it off. Sure Binny probably planned it, he certainly takes the credit on Arabic news for planning it. The US gov got caught with it's pants down - and lets not give these guys to much credit. I mean if they were 1/2way intelligent would they be working for the government? :)

Well, well.

This is truly a wretched thread to read.

Every single argument presented to back up the assumption that the US was the sole conspirator of 9-11 seems to be based on prejudices and generalities. For example, of course Bush and Cheney got to pick who were on the commitee. They are the President and the Vice-President. If you have any facts to the contrary, please bring them up, but otherwise, it just seems like common sense to me.

Koran, Arabic flight instructions, a farewell letter with final instructions for the terror accomplices

farewell in his suitcase ? So this is supposed to show that he intended the suitcase to be there ? With he Qu'ran ? With the instructions ? How hilarious

a fanatical moslem wouldn't stow away his Koran in his suitcase that goes into the cargo hold.

Not even I would

Not only have you have just absolutely dismissed the entire issue of the suitcase with a convoluted version of 'logic', but you have attempted to boast of your fanatacism. Wearing Islamic fanatacism as a badge will give you nothing in an argument, nor will pointing to the fact that several businessmen associated with the WTC were Jewish. This shows nothing other than that you hold a bias against them. It proves nothing.

Only its not completey correct . You see it might be very handy to have a full plain rather than an empty one because masses mostly act out like a unity , while empty holes tend to lead to individualistic action . In short , in a full plane it would be less likeley for someone to try something than in an empty one , so although your point is very nice , the opposite point is just as good . Leading us to nothing.

Ok, I understand that no one knows completelywhat they were thinking. However, as you so eloquently stated,

[/quote]Psychology and knowledge of their system makes you know what they were thinking.[/quote]

So, as an American citizen who has used mass transportaion, I would say that if I were in a small group, I would be much less apt to want to try to be heroic. In a group, I would have support, and a sense strength. However, as someone who has obvioulsy experienced the terrorist persona firsthand, you know automatically how it all is.

In the same vein, why would a plane full of American passengers fight against CIA operatives on the plane? The plane would not even need to be hijacked, as they (the CIA) could simply storm the cabin, 'arrest' a planted pilot, and take over the plane, or just keep everyone in the dark. Hell, because corporate america is so entangled with the Bush Adinistration, AA could have simply planted a pilot that did it on his own. But would the CIA risk the success of their 'mission' by physically hijacking a plane, and leaving open the risk of a flight 93 situation? Were the phone calls from the plane governement-designed? Was everyone a puppet?

Or, was it simply an act of terrorists who already have a rcord of terrorst attacks against America?

Or, have all attacks by Al-Qaeda been carried out by the CIA or Mossad? Does Al Qaeda even exist?

Lastly, of course Bush finished the story with the kids. When he was done at the school, he was whisked away. He never took some sort of protacted victory lap. It is only his duty as a father and a good human being to keep children's lives from becoming terrifying or confusing. I would not end the story and run off, nor would most people, because not only is it callous, but a difference of 10 or 15 minutes makes in difference in the time needed for security or war planning. This whole childrens' story issue is a scapegoat, and a stupid one.

To those of you pounding out the conspiracy theories, I ask you to look within and observe your own motives. Are you fighting for an idea that you believe that is backed up by fact, and not the absence of, or are you fighting to support a nationalistic notion of innocence? You can admit that muslims carried out 9-11 and still be a good muslim, that is, only if you are truly comfortable with being a Muslim.

What a bunch of crackpots. The following points need to be made:

1) Cell phone transmissions from passengers have established beyond a doubt that the hijackers were “brown Muslims”.

2) The idea that the US military would deliberately attack the Pentagon and kill their own generals is ridiculous.

3) The story about Jews not showing up for work at the WTC on the morning of the attacks is a myth with not one shred of evidence to support it.

4) Bin Laden HAS ADMITTED to masterminding the attacks in a video taped interview.

5) Would Ted Olsen, the Solicitor General of the United States and a man definitely in the loop, allow his wife to be killed just to blame the attacks on “brown Muslims”?

While I disagree with Bush on many issues, and probably would not vote for him if I were an American, he is absolutely right to kill any and all brown, black, yellow or white terrorists without mercy. I just wish the US hadn’t gotten bogged down in Iraq so they could devote all their considerable resources in tracking down terrorists.

1) Cell phone transmissions from passengers have established beyond a doubt that the hijackers were “brown Muslims�.

*1*Recordings ? *2*Any surviving whitnesses (not whitness of a whitness) ?

2) The idea that the US military would deliberately attack the Pentagon and kill their own generals is ridiculous.

*3*How many generals are killed ? *4*Have the lists of names of who died in what function ? *5*How does this disprove having knowledge of the operation rather than deliberate attack , or Mossad deliberate attack ?

3) The story about Jews not showing up for work at the WTC on the morning of the attacks is a myth with not one shred of evidence to support it.

*6*List of names of WTC-deaths please ? *7*List of names of surviving (or abscent) employees in WTC ?

4) Bin Laden HAS ADMITTED to masterminding the attacks in a video taped interview.

*8*No he has not , you are imagining things . Please proof that he has said this , because he has not . He did NOT admit anything . *9* Btw you speak Arabic ?


5) Would Ted Olsen, the Solicitor General of the United States and a man definitely in the loop, allow his wife to be killed just to blame the attacks on “brown Muslims�?

*10*Allow ? And yes , he might .

is absolutely right to kill any and all brown, black, yellow or white terrorists without mercy

What he calls terrorist is far from relevant . He's terrorist . Neo-cons are terrorists . Democrats are terrorists . The entire American system is terrorist and Americans approve of it .

If Bush has no mercy for our citizens , why should we have mercy for his ? Afterall , its not like we are actually competing . I suggest peoples should make up their minds what they call terrorism , and those who feel associated with these accusations should start understanding weither they feel accused by the meaning intended by the accuser .

I just wish the US hadnÂ’t gotten bogged down in Iraq so they could devote all their considerable resources in tracking down terrorists.

You dont have to track them down here they are : www.hizbollah.org & www.fateh.com .

What an amerikan calls
terrorist (http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/terrorist-groups.cfm)

Terrorist=Mujahid ? Yes ? Ok

Abu Nidal (Fatah) , Al Aqsa Shuhada (Fatah) , Islamic Jihad , Hamas , Islamic Jihad , PLF & DFLP . These are ALL Palestinian groups . Terrorist is nothing other than "stateless enemy of the state" according to USA & everybody gets in on it besides obviously the left-over "roge states" & "axis of evil" .

Just a slight communication problem I guess . No ? :rolleyes:

Jamaat ul-Fuqra

Hey I didnt know the USA had their own group ? They should shock & awe their asses :p

Terrorists (http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2002/html/)

That was way over the top Ghassan Kanafani and its only been 6 posts. You are from this moment on my ignore list. Feel free to continue your rambling.

Though I will not be able to hear it, please tell everyone what hypothetical information it would take to convince you your position is wrong. Any non-fanatic has such a list even if they dont know if. I certainly have one but nobody has satisfied it.

Well, Goodbye. You no longer exist.

oh we got a live one here :) :)

Ghassan, are you really from Gaza?

That was way over the top Ghassan Kanafani and its only been 6 posts. You are from this moment on my ignore list

Wow . Im stunned . Nothing even was said to Clockwood . LOL .
:(

Though I will not be able to hear it, please tell everyone what hypothetical information it would take to convince you your position is wrong.

I wanted to ask you my position on what exactly ? Since I dont know what you mean its kind of hard for me to answer . And you're not answering because I dont exist , lol . Ok .

Any non-fanatic has such a list even if they dont know if. I certainly have one but nobody has satisfied it

No Ill just let you in your thoughts since you cant even read what Im writing now . Im a crazy fanatic :p

Well, Goodbye. You no longer exist.

States of Denial (http://www.fdv.uni-lj.si/JIRD/indexof/vol5/saver.htm)

Perhaps you might care to read the book ? But you wont because the book doesnt exist , nor the link , nor this . You keep on denying , and I hope reality will deny you as well .

So long

2) How did a random event like a fire cause such a regular collapse in the WTC? Note that the towers collapsed vertically - not by falling to one side or the other noticably.

No real surprise. Each floor of the WTC was at least an acre square and was a massive slab of concrete. When the upper floors collapsed as the steel structure twisted it created a pancake effect, with the floors coming down on top of each other.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/sept-eleven7.htm

So Counseler : Or it could be that criminals are really really stupid. . They're not , really not in the least bit . You would agree if you would know something about them .

Apparently at least occasionally they can be that stupid (http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-kil1013,0,4583055.story?coll=ny-nationalnews-print).:D

Mohammed Salameh’s downfall came when he tried to get back his $400 deposit for the Ryder rental truck that was loaded with explosives and destroyed in the 1993 bombing in an underground garage at the World Trade Center. Six people were killed, and Salameh was convicted and sentenced to life in prison.

By the time Salameh went back to the Ryder dealership in Jersey City, N.J., investigators had found vehicle fragments with an identification number matching his van. His involvement was confirmed after his rental papers tested positive for chemical nitrates, which is common to many explosives.

Asked why Salameh would have rented a truck in his own name, reported to police and the dealership that it had been stolen and returned twice seeking a refund of his $400 deposit, a senior law enforcement official at the time said: “Who knows? Just because he’s a terrorist doesn’t mean he’s a brain surgeon.”

Many valid arguments are being presented here but there is still no hard evidence one way or another. This whole War on Terrorism that the Bush Admin has created has been based on heresay. The U.N and many nations around the world have asked for "evidence" from the USA to show Bin Laden's connection to the events at the WTC. The USA refused.

I do not speak Arabic, not a word of it, so I care not what my government claims Bin Laden has spoken in videos. I do know that some of the interpretations that I watched and heard did not seem accurate by voice inflection and body language. I may be wrong but I do not trust government "proof".

I truly feel that this tragedy was allowed by our government. There were too many inconsistencies and waaay too many screw ups. The immediate finger pointing afterwards seemed a little too obviously concocted to me.

Furthermore, I felt that in no way were we justified in attacking Afghanistan just because they harbour terrorists. This has been likened to others attacking New York City just because there are murderers there. No excuse. By the way, where is Bin Laden? What was it that Bush and his cohorts claimed? Thought so.

It all seemed very easy for Bush and Co. to switch gears after their failure to capture Bin Laden "Dead or Alive" and go chasing Saddam. Can't get one then let's get another. (We can discuss the failure and little game in Iraq later, in other posts)

I think bottom line is that many people here in America may be surprised who it really was behind the WTC incident. Trouble is it will be like the killing of JFK and Martin Luther King, the facts will never be revealed.

This so called confession video turned up exactly at the right point in time in order to stir up anew the weakening war euphoria of world publicity. The video was taped very darkly and the voices are amazingly hard to hear.

The crucial sentences are spoken just as if bin Laden's face was covered. Bin Laden acquaintances said that this is not his voice or language.

Other critical observers say that you can't at once establish if this poorly lit, bearded, turban-wearing man is actually the infamous terrorist.

It is highly improbable that bin Laden, who denied his authoring would boast about his attacks before a video recorder and that fleeing al Qaeda members would just leave such a video.

He was clumsy enough to leave a 'confession' video but managed to escape the wrath of 80% of US military. Right. He was dumb enough to confess, but chose not to go public to raise the morale of other fellow terrorists that he did the attacks.

My goal is not here to establish that the USA did it upon itself. Maybe that was the case. But my problem is the public has not been given any proof (perhaps because there is none) of muslim nations' involvement of the attacks.

It now seems like the so called 'War on Terror' means no muslim nation can have anything we, americans & jews, do not want them to have. And if anyone raises any opposition, "oh look, they're muslim, they must have 'terror training camps'."

Yeah, I know, kajo, we buillt those camps ourselves.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread. 9-11 denial is a stupid and emotionally-charged issue that is impossible to debate, or even discuss. Think objectively, and maybe you'll see beyond the need for vindication that drives the denial.

The islamists will always blame the Mossad / Zionist Agents / Toothfairy instead of taking responsibility for their fanatism.
There are ppl even on this board who defend Osama. (:confused: )

Coming up with conspiracy theories is the easiest and funnest thing in the world.

Originally posted by otheadp
The islamists will always blame the Mossad / Zionist Agents / Toothfairy instead of taking responsibility for their fanatism.
There are ppl even on this board who defend Osama. (:confused: )

Coming up with conspiracy theories is the easiest and funnest thing in the world.


Ah yes, someone always has to blame someone else for their deceptions... George W Bush... whoever. And I suppose their fanatism is worse than say the Catholic Priest who molests children? Quit making excuses for not looking at the possibilities objectively.

There are people here who are defending the country of Afghanistan! There was no reason to attack a whole nation just because someone may be hiding there! Heck what if Osama is in the U.S.? You gonna start blowing apart small town America looking for him? I thought so. It's real easy to do it to someone else, isn't it? But you would be crying to the heavens if some country did it to us....

Osama is known for what he does but he is no more a tyrant than half of our own legistlators in the Great US of A. Just our tyrants do it behind closed doors and much more secretively than those like Osama who do not pretend to be other than what they are.

I for one don't care for Osama or Saddam... we know they are tyrants or terrorists but it still does not justify blowing up the homes of innocents. By doing so America is just as much a terrorist as Saddam.

Go watch CNN and believe everything they say to you, you must by the statements you make.

I would not like to think such things of our government but time and again they prove that I have to scrutinize whatever they do or say. I am a free thinker and do not brainwash easily. If you cannot contribute thoughtfully to this thread then please refrain from saying anything at all to those of us who are in a real discussion about these events. It just makes you look like a.... I will refrain from name-calling.