Afghan president: Palestinian state precedes ties with Israel (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/635262.html)
Afghan President Hamid Karzai would recognize Israel's government if an independent Palestinian state was first established, his spokesman said on Sunday.
When the UN created Israel, they also created a Palestinian state. Israel refused to recognize Palestine, THEN the rest of the Mideast states refused to recognize Israel.

Israel makes a great deal over their right to exist, but the conflict began with Israel's refusal to recognize another state's right to exist.

two wrongs don't make a right, just because someone f-ed up in the past is not reason to F up now.

two wrongs don't make a right, just because someone f-ed up in the past is not reason to F up now.
I am just setting things down correctly so people who enjoy history are reminded of an event which puts things into a proper perspective . Israel forever harps to the world that it is the Arabs which does not recognise it , I am showing that they the Israelis were the ones who instigated it in the first place .

When Israel came into existence, its neighbors (Syria, Egypt, (Trans)Jordan) all attacked Israel with the intention of wiping it out. When a truce was finally reached, Egypt occupied the Gaza strip and Jordan annexed the West Bank. Neither country showed any interest in setting up a Palestinian state. It was not until 1967 these areas (West Bank and Gaza) came under Israeli control.

When Israel came into existence, its neighbors (Syria, Egypt, (Trans)Jordan) all attacked Israel with the intention of wiping it out.
No the Arabs nations advanced against Israel because Jewish squatters began soaking up Palestinian areas and putting the indigenous Palestinians to flight . In other words the Jews were going to wipe out the palestinian state , a task they suceeded in .
When a truce was finally reached, Egypt occupied the Gaza strip and Jordan annexed the West Bank. Neither country showed any interest in setting up a Palestinian state. It was not until 1967 these areas (West Bank and Gaza) came under Israeli control.
Palestine is the entire area of what is now Israel , that is the state of Paletine and can only be acheived by Israels complete removal .

Brian Foley: You do not seem to know the entire story, and seem to have some facts wrong.

In a discussion like this, I think all who post should provide a brief background. I am neither Jew nor Arab, but tend to sympathize with the Jews due to the raw deals they have gotten for well over a thousand years.

Face some historical facts without going back more than a few centuries. First the Ottoman Empire controlled the entire Middle East, including the area now called Palestine/Israel. Then the English got control of the area. The English promised the entire area to both the Jews and the Arabs in return for various services, but obviously could not keep both promises.

Until 1947, neither the Jews nor the Arabs living their had any control over the Palestine/Israel area. Since the reality is that control determines ownership, neither the Jews nor the Arabs can claim some historical basis for ownership of the area.

The UN negotiated a division of the area, part to the jews and part to Arabs, now called Palestinians. I do not remember any ethnic group called Palestinians, but am not sure about this. I thought there were various ethnic groups who lived in that area at various times.

The Arab countries attacked within days or weeks of the English giving up their control. There was not time for the Jews to organize any attempt to force Arabs out of the part of the area given to them. The Arab attackers threatened Arabs who did not flee, although some were forced out by the Jews.

It is definitely historical fact that Jordan controlled the West Bank from about 1948 to 1967, and Egypt controlled Gaza from about 1948 until I do not remember when (probably until 1967). Neither Egypt nor Jordan ever showed any willingness to turn territory over to Palestinian control. Jordan offically annexed the West Bank about 3-6 years after the 1947-1948 war.

The reality is that you cannot rewind history and start over again. The US essentially stole their country from the Indians. The Incas, Aztecs, and other natives of South and Central America lost out to the Spanish. The Jews have had land and money stolen from them for thousands of years. The Palestinians have lost control of land they consider to belong to them. Their claim might be valid, but they never controlled that area. All I really know is that there were not many Jews in the area prior to 1800. I forgot when they started to return to that area.

Everybody has to deal with the cards as currently dealt. The American Indians are not going to get the US given back to them. I do not think the Incas (if they still exist) expect to get their lands back. It is hoped that in modern times distputes can be negotiated rather than settled by war and violence, but this seems to be a forlorn hope.

Certainly the cycle of blame and endless arguments over who was there first and who owns the sacred sites etc. just perpetuates the stalemate which currently exists and prevents any possibility peace in the long term.

Both the Israelis and Palestinians will have to make compromises if they are ever to achieve a lasting peace.

Attitudes like Brian's do nothing to help. The "blame" is not all on one side, and those who can only see one side of the story are doomed to never be satisfied with anything less than the complete annihilation of the "other" side, which is unlikely to happen. Instead, what will happen is endless war, generation after generation. Typically, it is usually only 20 year old males who actually think that is a good idea, though some people remain at the mental age of 20 until much later in their chronological lives.

Dinosaur:

It is definitely historical fact that Jordan controlled the West Bank from about 1948 to 1967, and Egypt controlled Gaza from about 1948 until I do not remember when (probably until 1967). Neither Egypt nor Jordan ever showed any willingness to turn territory over to Palestinian control.

Gee, I wonder why the Arab states annexed Arab land.

Tell me, did Jordan evict the Palestinians from their homes, so that they could form a 'Jordanian-only' state?


The Arab countries attacked within days or weeks of the English giving up their control.

Jeez, isn't it surprising that the natives would drive illegal immigrants off their land?


There was not time for the Jews to organize any attempt to force Arabs out of the part of the area given to them.

Outright lie. You are aware that the Jews ended up with far more land than originally granted to them by the British?


The Arab attackers threatened Arabs who did not flee,

Another whopping lie.


although some were forced out by the Jews.

How generous of you to admit that 'some' were forced out by the Jews. I guess Jewish terrorist groups like Haganah, Irgun and the Stern Gang didn't exist.

MountainHare: The following is intellectually dishonest, if not an outright attempt to lie.Jeez, isn't it surprising that the natives would drive illegal immigrants off their land?In 1948, It was armies from Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Egypt who invaded the territories released to the Palestinians and the Jews by the UN. To imply that people from these countries are natives of Palestine indicates ignorance or a deliberate attempt to misrepresent the facts.

The following is also a misrepresentation of the actual facts, since it was posted in the context of the 1948 war.Outright lie. You are aware that the Jews ended up with far more land than originally granted to them by the British?After the 1948 war, Jordan was in control of the West Bank and Egypt controlled Gaza, both being areas given to the Palestinians. Israel did not gain control of the West Bank or Gaza until the 1967 war.

Note that Jordan officially annexed the West Bank and declared it part of Jordan about 5-10 years after taking it over.

It was a fact that during the 1948 war, Arab factions declared that Palestinians remaining in the disputed territories would be viewed as collaborators with the Jews when the war was over, encouraging them to flee. I was sent to Israel in 1960 by the Philco/Ford company, due to their having sold a large computer to the Israeli government. It was my job to organize their computer department, teach programming, and do some programming for them. I was there for about a year, during which time I made friends with both Jews and Arabs living in the Tel Aviv area. I was able to make friends with both groups because I was neither Jewish nor Islamic.

One Arab friend was an affluent contractor, whose family choose to stay when the 1948 war started. He told me that his family discussed the potential problems due to what they considered threats by the invading nations. They decided that they could bribe the Arab invaders to leave them alone if that side won the war, and that the Israelis would honor their ownership of property and their equipment if the Jewish side was victorious. In anticipation of the conflict, they had transferred most of their liquid assets to Swiss banks and sent jewelry & other valuables to relatives in the USA. They said they did this because they did not trust the invading Arab armies to honor their property rights unless they had considerable assets outside of Palestine.

My Arab friend said that there was some discrimination against his family the Jews, but that he was generally treated fairly and the successful contracting business was not interfered with. As anticpated, the Jews honored his property rights. I can only assume that they would have similarly honored the property rights of other Palestinians had they not fled the conflict.

While I was there, I became aware of two Jewish factions: The Sabra (native born) and the recent immigrants, many of whom were holocaust survivors or refugees who left Europe to escape Nazi persecution. The Sabra were not too sympathetic with the others.

The existence of the Sabra makes the above implication (illegal immigrants) another misrepresentation by MountainHare. There was a sizable Jewish population in Palestine at the time the UN established the partitioned state.

I have asked several times about how many Palestinians left the West Bank area at the time of the 1948 war and how many were allowed by the Jordanians to return in the 20 years that Jordan controlled the West Bank. I never got an answer from those on either side of this controversy. One fact I am aware of is that it was quite obvious that Jordan never intended to turn any of the West Bank over to Palestinians control. Any of that area turned over to Palestinians control is due to the Israelis who wrested it from Jordan.

BTW: It is my understanding that the Haganah, Irgun and the Stern Gang were most active prior to the 1948 war, fighting the British and fighting in a civil war with Palestinians in anticipation of the partitioned state. I believe (am not sure) that the civil war was due to fanatic factions on both sides wanting to be in a position to seize control when the British moved out. I am not very familiar with these groups, and would be interested in some unbiased history on the subject.

It has been my experience that it is very difficult to determine who is presenting an extremely biased view and who is describing historical facts. I basically trusted my Arab friend when he says that he felt threatened by the Arab faction (an Arabb dissing Arabs), and I trust some Sabra who admitted to trying force Arabs to leave in the 1947-1950 era (Jews dissing Jews). Most of the time I have the feeling that Jews are distorting the facts in their favor and Arabs are similarly distorting the facts to favor their cause. I have yet to read any description of the history of the area which I trust to be unbiased.

In particular, there seems to be no reliable documentation of how many Palestinians became refugees during the 1947-1950 era. I have often wondered how many were refugees from the West Bank area, and how many (if any) were allowed to return when Jordan was in control.

I question whether the British had the moral right to give the land to the Zionists when the British were given control after WWI and the break up of the Ottoman Empire that had controlled the area for centuries. Being a believer in the right of the governed to choose their government I believe that the people who were resident in the area at the end of WWI should have had the right to decide what would happen to the land.

I would ask if it was the UN's land to divide?

Candy: You could be correct about the decisions made by the British and the UN.

Note, however that there was a sizable Jewish population in Israel by the time the decision was made to partition it in 1947-1948. I think there was a smaller, but still sizable Jewish population in Israel at the time of WW1. The British only promised to turn the country over to the Zionists after WW1. They also promised it to the Arabs during WW1. I think both promises were made in order to get help from those to whom the promises were made.

I think the UN decision was primarily based on guilt over the holocaust. While the Germans ran the holocaust, America and the other allies knew what was happening. The allies could have done a lot to reduce the toll taken by the holocaust. Germany was quite willing to allow Jews to emigrate in the 1930's, but few countries would accept many of them. The US turned back a ship that reached the Florida coast shortly before or during WW2. The Jews requested that holocaust transportation be bombed.

Note that we are talking about a decision made about 60 years ago. As wrong as the decision might have been, we cannot roll back history. As posted previously, history is replete with unfairness and unethical actions that will never be undone.

One of the following has to be the eventual outcome.Negotiate a peaceful partition of the area. This seems very difficult, but doable, and might require military enforcement by an outside political entity (UN, USA, a coalition of some group of countries).


The two sides fight forever.


Create one country with both Jews and Palestinians enjoying equal citizenship rights. This does not seem possible. I cannot imagine either faction ever agreeing to this solution. The country would have to be run by an outside political entity (The UN, the USA, an Arab coalition) with both factions repressed via police state tactics.


Annihilate the Jews and turn the entire country over to the Palestinians. Alternatively, annihilate the Palestinians and turn the country over to the Jews. There are fanatics on both sides who would be happy to see one of these alternatives.


Relocate all the Jews to the US, Canada, Europe, Australia, South America, where ever. Alternatively, relocate all the Palestinians to other Arab or African countries.Perhaps I have left out some alternatives.

The focus must be on choosng one of the above alternatives. Arguing about real or imagined grievances that have occurred in the past is a waste of time. Arguing about who has a historical right the the land is also a waste of time.

I think this problem has been made particularly difficult by the basic attitudes of various politicians motivated almost exclusively by a desire for political and possibly economic power.

The following is intellectually dishonest, if not an outright attempt to lie.

Oh look, ignorant trash is accusing me of being intellectually dishonest. If we read further, we realize that he can't attack the opponent without resorting to straw men.


In 1948, It was armies from Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Egypt who invaded the territories released to the Palestinians and the Jews by the UN. To imply that people from these countries are natives of Palestine indicates ignorance or a deliberate attempt to misrepresent the facts.

So the Arab neighbours of the Palestinians are bad for attempting to drive illegal settlers off Palestinian land? The establishment of an illegal Jewish state not only stole the land of their Arab brothers, it also posed a threat to the neighbouring Arab states. Whichever way you spin it, Arabs were the majority group in Palestine. Citizens with mainly Arab blood lived in Palestine. So it is no shock that their Arab neigbours would help them fight violent greedy Zionists.

Then again, I guess the Lithuanias were unjustified in helping their Polish slav neighbours fight the Germans at the Battle of Tannenburg.


BTW: It is my understanding that the Haganah, Irgun and the Stern Gang were most active prior to the 1948 war, fighting the British and fighting in a civil war with Palestinians in anticipation of the partitioned state

Who do you think drove 700,000+ Arabs out of Palestine? Zionists used to tout some fantasy about the neighbouring Arab countries telling them to leave, but this has been debunked by even pro-Zionist sources.

Of course, Zionists enjoy claiming that 'greedy Arab states just wanted to land'. This begs the question of why the hell they didn't invade until AFTER the European Jews had immigrated there, and formed a standing army (aka. terrorist organizations). How hard would it have been for Egypt or Jordan to conquer an 'empty land without people' (as the Zionists love to say?)

Yep, it just makes perfect sense. You attempt to conquer land only after it has a standing army to defend it.

After the 1948 war, Jordan was in control of the West Bank and Egypt controlled Gaza, both being areas given to the Palestinians.

Because we all know that the Palestinians had a good chance of defending that territory... the Palestinians didn't even have a standing army.


The existence of the Sabra makes the above implication (illegal immigrants) another misrepresentation by MountainHare. There was a sizable Jewish population in Palestine at the time the UN established the partitioned state.

Oh look, the retard is now inventing straw man arguments.

1. Where exactly did I claim that all immigration of European Jews occurred after the UN established the partitioned state? The Balfour Declaration was spawned in 1917, not 1945. Zionists had been immigrating to Palestine ever since the 1880's.

2. Where exactly did I say that ALL Jews in Palestine were immigrants? Quite the contrary, the Jews native to Palestine (mainly Arab Jews) lived quite peacefully alongside their Christian and Muslim brothers until European Jews came along and stole land. You seem to have trouble distinguishing between NATIVE JEW, and EUROPEAN JEW. Merely because NATIVE JEWS lived in Palestine does not give EUROPEAN JEWS the right to invade and steal land.

3. You make the assumption that merely because Sabra exists, a SIZABLE population of Jews existed. Why don't you actually come up with some facts and figures, instead of conjecture?



The following is also a misrepresentation of the actual facts, since it was posted in the context of the 1948 war.
“ Outright lie. You are aware that the Jews ended up with far more land than originally granted to them by the British?

No, it is not a misrepresentation, and your attempted denial highlights your blatant ignorance.

I'm not going to spoon feed you, since obviously you have done very little research in this matter, except gather some anecdotal evidence.

Google 'UN partition'. Then, determine the following...
1. The percentage of land was originally granted to Israel under the UN partition.
2. The percentage of land they actually ended up with after the 1948 war.

BTW, I have done you the favour of hunting down one of my previous threads where I posted some statistics about the number of Jews in Israel.

http://www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/intro-pal-isr-primer.html

By the outbreak of World War I (1914), the population of Jews in Palestine had risen to about 60,000, about 33,000 of whom were recent settlers. The Arab population in 1914 was 683,000.

So there were about 30,000 native Jews in Palestine. Once again, remember that a Jew is not necessarily a white European Khazarian Jew.

"The US turned back a ship that reached the Florida coast shortly before or during WW2"

There is an excellent book and film from the 1960's about this event titled "The Ship of Fools"..

"Note that we are talking about a decision made about 60 years ago. As wrong as the decision might have been, we cannot roll back history. As posted previously, history is replete with unfairness and unethical actions that will never be undone. "

I agree that we have to deal with the situation as it is today not on what was done that may have been wrong but failure to admit that an action was wrong leads to that action being repeated. It is not wise to repeat a mistake.

Israel and the people living in the Occupied Territories have to reach a deal that both sides can live with. The biggest roadblock maybe the control of the religious sites that are sacred to both sides. Israel must understand that they can not dictate terms the people living in the Occupied Territories. The Palestinian people have the right to life, liberty, and self-determination just like everybody else.

So the Arab neighbours of the Palestinians are bad for attempting to drive illegal settlers off Palestinian land? The establishment of an illegal Jewish state not only stole the land of their Arab brothers, it also posed a threat to the neighbouring Arab states. Whichever way you spin it, Arabs were the majority group in Palestine. Citizens with mainly Arab blood lived in Palestine. So it is no shock that their Arab neigbours would help them fight violent greedy Zionists.

Now Now, Dinosaur is making some very good points. You seem to be forgetting that "the arabs" were not and still aren't a homogeneous group. Arab brothers? Perhaps you can explain why the ancestors of todays palestinians were sold out by the landowners who sold the land to the incoming zionists, who were happy, before WW2, to buy the land from the often Arabic landowners?
How are you defining Arab anyway? I can assure you that it is not a synonym for "Moslem".

You seem to be forgetting that "the arabs" were not and still aren't a homogeneous group. Arab brothers?

Because we all know that the Europeaners are a homogeneous group... just like the Slavs were a homogenenous group when they drove the Germans out at the battle of Tannenburg.

It's surprising why you can't fathom that Arabs would favour Palestinians (who have mainly Arab blood) over Caucasian invaders.


Perhaps you can explain why the ancestors of todays palestinians were sold out by the landowners who sold the land to the incoming zionists, who were happy, before WW2, to buy the land from the often Arabic landowners?

What is there to explain? I never denied that some Palestinians sold their land to illegal European Jewish immigrants. Some Palestinians needed cash, so they sold excess land. Sounds like the smart thing to do.

I have a nasty feeling that you might try and claim that all the land the Jews gained before 1948 was purchased. I'm afraid that only a small minority of land was purchased. The majority of the land was taken illegally by force, squatters, etc.


How are you defining Arab anyway? I can assure you that it is not a synonym for "Moslem".

NO SHIT! Because obviously I didn't know that, even when I said this in my previous post:

Quiite the contrary, the Jews native to Palestine (mainly Arab Jews) lived quite peacefully alongside their Christian and Muslim brothers until European Jews came along and stole land.

Then again, since when have dumbasses ever read my posts in depth? Obviously I think that Arab = Muslim, since I mentioned that Arab Jews existed in Palestine.

DUMBASS.

Ummm, when the land was sold was before WW2, it was sold and bought quite legally. Of course some of the settles were illegal, but thats beside the point. Your forgetting that the Palestinians were actually the local serfs, and didnt own much of the land themselves.