The Buddha said that the cause of suffering is desire. “The mind is on fire (with desire), and all the senses are on fire.” We always want more than we have, and more than we could possibly consume in a lifetime. We are living hungry ghosts. Buddha says that for the anguish to stop, the wanting has to stop.

Why is it so difficult to be free from want? Now think: Why is this? In the face of it, nothing could be simpler than to sit still and live the moment. But why is it difficult? We’re so tuned in to our internal monologue that if it stops for a minute, we don’t quite know what to do with ourselves. We’re like the teenager plugged into earphones who can’t live without the sound of rap.

http://www.daibosatsu.org/sf02news/sf02jiro.html

Simplifed: remove desire, see truth. This assumes that desire cannot have any natural roles, and that all people approach desire the same way, when clearly comparing a drug addict to an athlete shows that isn't true. Nietzsche preferred to route desire into "the will to power," and Schopenhauer saw desire as a manifestation of a blind, dumb, ineffable will distributed amongst us. Is this an east/west split, or are they saying the same thing?

Schopenhauer was inspired by Eastern philosophy I think. What he said was close to Buddhism, but he did not live that life himself. He was bitter, and later on he was happy with all the praise.

Nietzsche's Eternal Recurrence is a bit similar to the cycle of birth and death in Eastern philosophy. But he never tries to get out of it, and he embraces the will to power. Buddha's toes would curl. Or would he just smile?

I don't think that destruction of the ego, seat of our desires, is the way to go. I think it is a greater challenge and a more worthy occupation to try and live in society, controlling the ego and aiming for a meaningful life.

For me, this includes permanent questioning of self. Rap music in your ears, games at your fingers, flashy images before your eyes, are means of numbing the spirit. I try to live a conscious life, even if that can be hard sometimes.

Truth is a form, an idea. (I have a thread about that somewhere). Ideas are not part of human life. They can help the mind to structure things, but they do not represent what life is. Life is as much feeling your fingers on the keyboard typing "f-e-e-l-i-n-g y-o-u-r f-i-n-g-e-r-s o-n t-h-e k-e-y-b..." as it is an emanation of God. It is the same thing. There is no use in trying to become one with the ultimate principle. We already are. It is better to try and live a good life here, with a controlled ego. (and it is you yourself who decides what "good" is)

To want to free yourself from desire is also a desire. To want to live in the moment is also a desire. The problem is we don't really listen to our internal monologue- we take it for granted. If you really listened to what you are thinking, eventually you will be thinking about thinking about thinking about thinking... and it will fade into the backround, you will see how silly it is, and you will no longer identify with it but put thinking in it's proper place (I can't tell you what that is).

Destroying desire is fatalism. It is for those who wish to be dead, to embrace the void. I spit in the face of such cowardice. Was it not Nietzsche himself who also said that life-denial would produce beings fearful of life, too meek to wisthstand the forces of nature?

Whether I disagree or not -- how could you assume that life events are not predermined? In the end, isn't this 'fatalism' a result of the choices which you've made based on the morality that you have?

Acutally, I think Nietzsche was a fatalist who believed that only the ubermensch could truly defy fate, as he is the only person that can fully do away with morality, and the rest of us have to try and release ourselves. Most never do. I think you'd be a liar if you tried to say that you have absolutely no morals.

Desire by it's nature IS suffering.

Desire is an unquenched craving ( suffering) when satisfied ( pleasure) the suffering diminishes until the next time.

It is not just desire that needs to be tempered but the whole suffering/ pleasure cycle.

The more unstatisfied your desire the less happy you are.

So maybe change what you desire to attainable satisfactions instead.

Originally posted by Craig Smith
Why is it so difficult to be free from want?

I think the simple answer is that we are conditioned that way from birth.
Rather than being taught to focus on what we do have, we are taught to focus on what we do not have.

We are taught that respect comes from success.
However you measure success, (monetary, power, posessions, influence, status etc) succeess is always the same thing... Aiming on acheiving a goal we have not yet obtained.
Looking at what you now have (or the state the world and its populace is currently in, or whatever you place value on) and seeking an answer to, "How can this be improved?".
To search for that answer (to aim for success) is to desire what you do not have rather than focusing on what you do have.
With each success, we are taught that we should not rest on our laurels, but to go to the next level.

With the mentality of earching for success, "Success" is something that can never truly be obtained, because there is always that next plateau, therefore we will always be striving for this impossible final goal on the horizon.

(I am not sure how much I agree with what I just said, but it strikes me as true right now, so I am posting it right now.)

I feel that what you said heads in the right direction.

The thing is that there is no porblem with desiring something it is only in it's attainability that creates the problem.

Say,

A kid at school wants to be a medical specialist say proctology.

He needs to learn that to achieve his desire there are steps that he needs to achieve along the way, each one achievable if it pans out that he is capable. He has to be realistic in his endeavours and not aim for something he can't achieve. Maybe he should be a brain surgeon instread or a labouror that makes roads.....etc.....sometimes it pays to aim a little higher but always keeping in mind the reality of that ambition.

No point making roads and dreaming of being a proctologist when obviously the desire is futile and generates frustration. ( suffering)

I think that mankind needs to strive to be better I think this is very necessary thing but it's in the how and what that counts.

If one takes craving away one also takes pleasure away and if this happens then we may as well all pack our bags and call it quits.

If you don't crave food you starve.

A kid at school wants to be a medical specialist say proctology.
I think he should also question why he wants to be a proctologist (why would anyone want to be a proctologist? :)).
Is it because he wants to serve people? make them happier? make the world a better place? be rich?
All of these things are really not goals, and if he approaches any of them as goals, he will never reach them.
Serving people is a path.
Making people (as a whole) happy is endless and unatainable.
Making the world a better place, is not only highly subjective (a view that changes even personally through time) but, also should be seen as a path, rather than a goal.
Being rich is never attainable, bacause you can always be richer, plus he should question why he wants to be rich.

I think that mankind needs to strive to be better I think this is very necessary thing but it's in the how and what that counts.
Why?

If one takes craving away one also takes pleasure away
I am not sure if I agree with that, but it can bring up some good questions.
Care to elaborate a bit?


If you don't crave food you starve.
I think that instinctual survival cravings (food, water, warmth etc) and Ego-based desires are two different things.

Am thinking about western culture here.

Say you take away desire, what have you got left?

Take away cravings for anything and what have you got left.

The only result is death.

You want (desire) to live in an appartment, it cost you $100 a week. To fulfill this desire you need to work to get the money to pay for the accomodation. If you are reasonably balanced you will enjoy paying the rent and say to your self "well done" and achieve satisfaction that you are not homeless and living on charity.

You crave a home and you seek to create this and when you do it is satisfying ( pleasure)

If you don't crave or desire ( suffering) a home you will be homeless.....joining the waifs on the street.

So to live a life of value one needs to balance desires so that life is satisfactory. ( happy)

If you remove desire entirely you are dead...simple as that.

And the Buddhist will strive to die in such a way so that they don't come back only to desire again. They want eternal peace...or should I say eternal death. ( my current general understanding) How can one consider living as a buddhist monk on a mountain top craving death living?

Whilst I admire some of Buddhist thought I find their ultimate objectives futile.

Life is suffering and suffering is essential to live.

Cravings are what makes life worth living....and it is only in the balance that determines your ultimate happiness. Any extremes will eventually destroy your happiness therefore austerity is recommended.

My view ( elaborated):)

Am thinking about western culture here.
I'm not.
I am thinking about life in general.
Do you think that western culture has it right?
Do you think that the things that are valued in western culture are positive and will ultimately lead to a greater existence and true happiness?
I don't.

Say you take away desire, what have you got left?
Take away cravings for anything and what have you got left.
The only result is death.

What you have left is not death.
It is life.
Life in it's pure essence.
Here and now.
The moment.
Nature.
Yourself.
The word unencumbered by "things".

You want (desire) to live in an appartment, it cost you $100 a week.
Exactly.
Why?
Why should you desire to live in an apartment and pay rent to someone who stakes a claim on nature?
Wouldn't you rather live off the free land?
Can you tell me that there isn't a place in you that wouldn't want to live like Gilligan?
Wouldn't that give you a greater sense of satisfaction, completeness, truth?

you seek to create this and when you do it is satisfying ( pleasure)
Creation is a process of self expression, not a gaol.
If you are focusing on what you can hold in your hand when you are done creating, I think you are approaching the creative process from the wrong mindset.

If you don't crave or desire ( suffering) a home you will be homeless.....joining the waifs on the street.
Try and think outside western culture.
Is life in the city better than life in tribal communities, spiritually speaking?

So to live a life of value one needs to balance desires so that life is satisfactory. ( happy)
That is exactly what I question.
What constitutes the "value" of one's life?

If you remove desire entirely you are dead...simple as that.
Not nearly as simple as that.

And the Buddhist will strive to die in such a way so that they don't come back only to desire again. They want eternal peace...or should I say eternal death. ( my current general understanding)
Yeah, pretty much.
And, no, you had it right the first time, you should say eternal peace.

How can one consider living as a buddhist monk on a mountain top craving death living?
They do not crave death.
They revel in every moment of life, then allow the moment to pass to revel in the moment that is here now.
I can't think of any way to possibly be happier in life.
Would you rather focus on a past you can't change or a future that will never come?

Whilst I admire some of Buddhist thought I find their ultimate objectives futile.
I think you don't fully understand their ultimate goal.

Life is suffering and suffering is essential to live.
In a sense, yes.

Cravings are what makes life worth living....and it is only in the balance that determines your ultimate happiness. Any extremes will eventually destroy your happiness therefore austerity is recommended.
Any cravings (as I pointed out, above the level of survival instincts) are nothing more than not being satified with life.
Who is happier...
The one who is never truly satified with life, so constantly trying to satisfy cravings...
The one who is satisfied with life and free to live every moment for exactly what it is and revel in the details of each moment?

I hate to state the obvious but if one looks around we see about 6 billion persons in the world. And unless you are considering genocide one has to deal with the reality that 6 billion people represent.

There simply is not enough virgin forest or willing alms givers to fund or support the lifestyle you espouse.

Without the support of other people the Buddhist lifestyle would fail.

So to achieve the ideal you are suggesting ( and I must admit it does sound appealing to me) would certainly with out radical desires being brought to bare be rather impossible.

It is unfortunate that we simply cannot exist as a race with the numbers we have in the manner you suggest. This is the reality of it.

Every breath you take costs something, ( For me I worked it out at about 2.25 centsAUD per breath) A buddhist monk on a hill top will cost about 0.25 cents per breath but cost it does. The money does not have to be in cents either...could simply be in terms of energy expended or exchanged.

You either dig up roots and expend the energy to do it or you get a job and pay for it that way, But there is always a cost involved. Nothing is for free.

To deny your own nature also comes at a cost.

To exist in the moment also costs. Even bloody dying costs....(shit):)

I might add that living in the western cultures can be very successfully done and as I said earlier it is all a matter of balance.

Certainly shutting the door would be easier but I think the challenge of making western life happy is worth it.