hello. first post.
i was wondering if anyone has ever brought up the idea that: all of these sightings and such could just be of time travelers from a distant age on earth rather than aliens?
i've heard of "UFO's" being seen in the mountains: a large spinning circular type craft. then the ufo just dissapearing. spinning/vibrating to light speed, but relatively staying in the same place- but slowly as approaching and maybe passing the speed of light leaves our particular "time dimension" and so no longer visible to us.

Fun to speculate, but as difficult to prove as an alien theory, I guess.

:m: Peace.

I have not discounted this theory, or the Dimensional travelers theory either.

I don't know where these craft originate from. The only thing I'm convinced of, is that they are real, and are not being imagined. And, not all of them, are constructed on this planet, in this time, or this dimension.

Hi austere, welcome to the forums, especially this section :D

firstly, realize that these crafts are infact travelling thru time, no matter where they came from.
1- if they are aliens from other planets in other galaxy's, they've got to travel faster than light, meaning cut thru time in order to get here.
2- if they were in fact people from earth from the future, then they must be travelling backwards in time, seeing their advanced technology and dissapearing like you said. * read down by the quotes

but one thing to think about is that there has been little aliens found dead (and some alive) around UFO recovery sites, and let's not forget the countless abduction testimonies describing the alien figures clearly.
(an ex-top-secret-clearance scientist testified that the US gov't has over 57 classified species of extra terrestrial life documented)

this is why i dont think this UFO crafts are humans from our future, it just doesnt fit the current puzzle pieces, ya know? but i doesnt mean you are wrong. this area of discussion is still up in the air so we can't discount any speculations yet. in fact all theories and wild ideas can prove to be helpful.

i dont think humans will have the power to travel back in time, thats a power for higher dimensional beings only. we can, of course- rocket forward in time, this will be space exploration at its best. but who knows just like prometheus stole fire from the gods maybe we will someday achieve the godly status of time travellers.

And, not all of them, are constructed on this planet, in this time, or this dimension.
a good statement- because it has been rumored that the government has already began engineering devices and possibly crafts based on the UFOs technology that they have recovered. It has even been proven that they Got one of these Crafts to work, a human was able to navigate the craft up to speeds of Mach20! (this supports Your idea actually- because think about this- what if the government has already sent someone into the future(space) inside one of this newly developed (or original) crafts - then it could definetely be true that this man could go into the future(space) and one day return (might be before he even left!) ) its really mind boggling. or maybe they havent left yet- but soon the govt will finish the engineering problems and finally send someone out- but we've already seen him visit?!
i agree with your idea- but i think theyre other life forms (beings, aliens, whatever) from the future that are coming here- not humans from our future on earth. think about this:

theres aliens from other galaxies, they are advanced enough to travel space with their gravity-propulsion crafts- they visit here and there and we've even seen them and some have crashed (they can break light speed but cant fly straight??) these are your little gray dudes.

theres interdimensional beings- these are the true time travellers, except we cannot really see them- these beings go in and out of dimensions, one of them being Time. these are your ghosts, angels, and that kind of thing-
these beings work on the other side of Time, trying to fix things of the past after seeing the future. but u see its an ongoing war i think. because of free will the future is re-written many and many times over. this beings have a very busy job. since they are interdimensional this means they have no physical body to worry about- they can fly from one end of the universe to the other fairly easy (a speculation of mine) while travelling in time. they are like energy beings, or spiritual beings, if you will. this is what i believe is the next step up in life forms. (when you die)

of course it can't be taken as more than just a speculation, but i think it will spark some ideas in your heads too. i would go deeper but that would kind of steal the threads flow with my wild ramblings.

What if they are earthlings, just like us, from our time, but more highly evolved. We assume we are the most advanced species on this planet. I would suppose the dolphins and monkeys assume the same and are quite suprised and frightened when they see the technology of the human.

its a good theroy

but like goofyfish said, there really not much proof of this

Time travel backwards? there is no reason to beleive this is possible; Dimesional travel?maybe; ETI travel? much more likely.

Time travel backwards? there is no reason to beleive this is possible

um i can think of one very good reason to travel time backwards:

to fix errors of the past.

i know u have wished you can go back in time at one point or another in your life.

I also wish I could fly; should I jump of a building now and see If I can fly?

No offence, but there is no logical basis for time travelling backwards. The past is an existence that has elapsed. If you went back to the past, you would cease to exist, further more you would no longer be in the same position in space when you arrive at a point in the past.

he didn't say that there is no reason....he said that there is no reason to think its possible.

Besides think about time travel for a second...every particle that has exists in a fixed time t of where you wanna travel back to...has moved over the course of "time". Some have disappeared and new particles have arisen...
Now think of how many particle there are in the universe...do you think its possible to trace all these particles out???

well to stray from the topic of this post a bit;
this is my take on backwards time travel.
i believe that only those in higher realms of existance are able to travel backwards in time- why?
because these spirits higher than us do not have any physical properties, they are unbound souls, etc... therefore it doesnt matter about the particles and all of that, they are pure energy.
furthermore, i would even go as far as saying that these people might use blackholes, wormholes, or things similar for their time travelling.
i would say that those very high (older, ancients) in the spiritual world probably dont even need to use these shortcuts, they can just do it at will.

back to post:
i would agree- they are time travellers.
maybe some humans from our future
more likely aliens from other places

i agree with all your oppositions (neuro, mikey) to time travelling- we (mortal humans) cannot do it and it would really cause some problems if we tried...

Zonabi, why should spiritual, or pure energy entities be able to time travel? Mass and energy are interchangable. If mass cannot time-travel; so can't energy. Time applies to energy too.

Time Travelers, not Aliens?

Yes, we have discussed the posibilities two years ago. Based on the rumors, it is possible that if the government is aware of this, they may be told not to interfere by the future government. The reason for visit: To get some facts for history may be. Interface with them could mess up future timeline??

Otherwise, if they are real aliens, they could easily come in daylight over New York City. Why sneak around always at night? Do we send our Rovers to Mars at night and hide during the day?

Kmguru, aren't you being presumptious, saying aliens only visit at night. There have been sightings in the day too. Comparing our Rover expeditions on Mars to UFO's, is like comparing apples to oranges. We know there is no life on Mars to intercept our Rovers. However, aliens would know there is "intelligent" life on Earth that can intercept them, hence the secrecy doctorine. There are ramafications of an advanced ETI race disclosing itself to a primitive race prematurely. It would shatter the cultural and religious paradigms, it would incite paranoia at the roots of socieity, it could bring the world to a state of anarchy. Knowing this, a sensible alien race, would be more cautious and paitent and when it is ready to make official contact, it would engage only the most highest ranking members of our kind.

In fact the first Alien contact, would most probably not be UFO's flooding the skies for all to see, but government officials stepping out and announcing their existence.

We know there is no life on Mars to intercept our Rovers.

Are you sure? Not even an observation post? :D

Besides, how do you know, all intelligent life are bipeds and basically look like us? And do not live as dark matter nor have forms totally alien to us?

BTW: Majority of the sightings are at night...

Theoretically, timetravel does tie in with Chaos theory. The fact that the current system we are use to, although it's said we can't predict events or the future, the reality is that we could potentially engineer a method to be able to, this would mean that all events you see that seem chaotic are in fact predestined/predetermined.

However the creation of a "paradox" through timetravel would unleash true chaos, since no longer woud the universe to our knowledge have any foundations of order for predetermining things.

This is why I looked at how particular books that were written centuries ago, might have been written with a ruleset in mind where the timeline isn't messed with which allows for things to be predicted before they happen, however there were two other aspects to this.

On one hand if people didn't follow the exact timeline then certain branches of ancestral paths might be cut off meaning that 100s of thousands, millions or even more numbers of people would cease to exist in regards to that plotted timeline (Which could be a great loss if those numbers contained great intellectual minds)

On the other hand, prophecy from such timeline manipulation would eventually reach the point at where the information was originally collected and sent back into the books coelescence, which means prophets that read from such texts would read a preverbial brick wall to which they can not spy any more future and therefore think that an armageddon structure had take place.

The reality of course there is either someone would have to write another volume to said book, or we truly get granted the freedom of none repetative timelines. (Although repetative ones allow predictions)

Are you sure? Not even an observation post? :D

That question isn't if i'm sure; it's wether they are sure ;) :D

Besides, how do you know, all intelligent life are bipeds and basically look like us? And do not live as dark matter nor have forms totally alien to us?

I don't know. In fact I think alien life can vary dramatically in form, or even on the quantum level.

BTW: Majority of the sightings are at night...[/quote]

Have you been sifting through the hundreds of thousands of cases of UFO sightings and the other hundreds of thousands of cases that are not even reported? If they were at night, when the human species should be asleep, and considering their secrecy doctorine, don't you think that would be an appopriate time?

The best way to understand timeline related paradox is to think about a simulation where one can freeze the simulation and go back to any point to change the conditions and run the simulation from that point on. As soon as you do that ,the past result only exists in a different time line that is independent of the new time line. It is a bubble inside a bubble where the observer is in a separate reality than the simulation even though the simulation time is synced to the observer.

Let observer time line is T
Let simulation one has a timeline of T1
Let the new simulation timeline is T2

T1 would exist as past in Timeline T but events do not continue when the simulation is stopped.
T2 continues with new results which creates the new reality within the simulation.

Bottom line: They are two separate events with two separate time lines within a larger framework of a master timeline. So, in order to go to past or future, one must move out of the timeline to the master timeline and then enter any point in the bubble which creates the new bubble. Then the paradox of killing your grandfather does not exist because in the new timeline you would still exist coming from a separate timeline as if you came from a separate parallel universe.

I am not sure if I made myself clear....

So, in order to go to past or future, one must move out of the timeline to the master timeline and then enter any point in the bubble which creates the new bubble

What is the master timeline. I obviously did not follow you.

Master timeline:

These are ideas since we have no such proof. The idea is this. If you look at three phase AC power circuit, you will find that the L1, L2 and L3 are separated by 120 degrees out of phase. Each one has a common master reference of time to each other. But power from another independent power source while would have their own common references would not have any relation to the first source. However they both are related to the earth time. This earth time is the master source that they synchronize when power systems are connected together.

This is similar in idea or metaphor for the lack of a better metaphor.

sitting here at work i realized something incredible. let me share (ill ktry to keep it short and simple):

i am a graphic designer, and so i work on Ads, and Photos, etc. My main program is Adobe Photoshop. Now in this program (for those not familiar) there is a *neat* tool called the "History Pallet". Inside this History Pallet it has EVERY SINGLE THING you have done to your picture, all Listed in chronological order, the top being the beggining.
Now, u might say "so what?" well here's the "so what" ~
with the history pallet, i can go back to a previous action i did, and it will momentarilly REVERT to that point. It will show me how the picture was at that point on my screen. NOW- heres the good part. From THAT POINT, I CAN CREATE A NEW DOCUMENT FROM THAT STATE OF THE PICTURE. Now i have the picture TWICE... but listen to this- The original Picture Still contains all of the commands up to the current point (before we backed up) - while the new document has started its own history pallet starting from the duplicated state.

now, ignore that i even said this was adobe photoshop, and it sounds exactly like parrallel universes in which we are discussing.

Basically what im trying to say is that going back in time creates alternate timelines, but i feel they are STILL closely connected, such as the voltage analogy KMG brought to our attention.

kmg - the voltage comparison is VERY WORTHY of this discussion. Good Observation there...

so to try and tackle this thread, i think using comparisons is the only way to kind of 'imagine' what would happen in these situations.
the only things i have concluded are
-traveling back in time would cause you to dissapear from your present.
-traveling back in time would cause history to be re-written.
-if this is possible, then u must accept the fact that if indeed backwards time travel is possible, it therefore must create alternate 'universes' or 'timelines', simple because we are still here right now.

now, things i have conjured up in my mind are as follows:
- humans arent meant to travel back in time- they will get lost for good.
- spiritual beings may be able to transverse in time, for 2 main reasons:
a) they are nothing physical, and need not follow the laws of energy/mass or whatever
b) since theyre NOT physical, they cannot interfere with the past(or present or future, for that matter) directly, only in-directly
- there are many paths of time, or 'timeline' as kmg so nicely put it
a) there is a main Line, i would say it extends forward in a pretty straight line.
b) this line is made up of everyones life (everyone's "time") , and it is intertwined very carefully.
c) if one were to travel back in time, their "thread" so to speak would rip, and unravel, meaning it would start to stray from the main time line "rope".

now, heres something i just realized while writing that:
what if, based on my loose analogy, a time traveller went back in time, picture this:
His thread of time breaks loose from the main timeline, picture a thread of a heavy rope that is stray (much like a split end in hair)
NOW- where the thread ripped is exactly the point in time when he "jumped in the time machine" (or insert your own ideas there) meaning the point he exited the present.
LETS SAY you grab this end, the tip of the ripped thread, and you BENT IT BACKWARDS (downwards, if the timeline was going straight up) and bent it back and put it into the main time-line rope at a previous time?

a revelation i just had... strange... but If i were to accept this idea i just made into a theory, it would seem that it creates one regulation:

-if a person's thread rips off (he decided to time travel) - it can only be bent backwards, simply because the thread cannot stretch itself to reach a further point in the main time line.

this is a pickle, because up untill this point i was under the impression that travelling Backward in time was IMPOSSIBLE (for humans), while travelling forward into the future is Possible(for humans).

but its only an analogy and i shouldnt take it too literal.
eep! sorry i tried to keep it short!

Well Zonabi, I am glad you are getting it from your Photoshop analogy. If you think about it, let us say that the file you first created can be handed to another artist to have a version for one client. The one you edited going back a few steps and saved it as a new file is for another client after you finish it up.

Now, let us say, instead of just a Photoshop - it is a Sim-City One that you can create with some variables and store that simulation or let it run in the background saving it as City Two. Then bring up the City One at the point it was saved as City Two and backstep to a position in time and make a change to go forward. Now you have two instances running under a master time line which is the computer clock. The Cities could have their own timeline to speed up or slow down the simulations.

Now, let us take a step forward. Imagine a human in your City One has been given an attribute to access the program in City two - which is possible since the simulation is running in the same computer. Now there could be interesting interactions....

There is another issue. Say, the computer is so powerful that the simulated environment has people who can talk or interface like real people. They can in effect talk to you directly (you are the God to them) and could interact between the two cities.

You could have all kinds of fun scenarios here.....

The photoshop history tool is a great analogy, I must say, it really does put a completely different perspective on time travel. It provokes this question for me; does the universe have a memory. However if the universe can have a memory, why can't it be intelligent? If it is intelligent; then why can't it be God.

If we accept the universe is intelligent, and has an infinite memory of all events from the birth of the universe to now, then the universe could easily take the pointer of time back to a previous event, or indeed continue the original time line, but begin another timeline from a event in the past.

Speculation, speculation, speculation, till our hairs go white. I accept the universe can be anything, and everything -but what it is to us, should be logical and provable, we cannot prove it has a memory, nor do we know if we ever will. So, yes, let's speculate, but speculate about what we know may be attainable and what can be supported with valid arguments.

So, now we have zonabi and crazymikey on the same page. Wow! Great minds think alike. Now, what I am going to tell you will blow your mind. I have been tinkering about this concept for the last 15 years. I think, we can effect the change for our personal benefit as long as it supports the greater objective of the simulation or creation.

In order to do that, first you have to be aware of the framework as to how you fit in and then focus on changing your activity with respect to the overall program or framework. "seek and ye shall find it" literally works within the context of the framework. That is the theme Matrix presented us and great religions also have presented hidden in the books.

So, one does not have to wait for the hairs to go white. Use it to your advantage.

There's a way to travel backward in time but only as an observer. You simply find a way to travel faster than light wether by spaceship or wormhole. All you have to do is overtake the light waves that just left earth. As you get close to the speed of light things on earth will look to be slowing down. As you get even with the speed of light events will freeze and then when you go faster than the speed of light events on earth will be going backwards.

Oh yah you'll need a good pair of binoculars.

I've wondered about that, if it is possible to see images from the past, if travel faster than the speed of light in space. Is that really possible, ligtht carrying our images into space?

According to Einstein we can not travel faster than the speed of light but who knows someone smarter may find a way.

Light reflected off events on earth are speeding away from us like a a long film. Speeding along that film strip you'll be seeing scene after scene of earth's past.

Einstein did not say, it is not possible to travel faster than the speed of light. He says it is possible in certain conditions.

here's my trick question:
if you go faster than the speed of light, would u be able to see anything?
would you have any color at all? or any 'image' so to speak?

if light bouncing off objects and entering your eye is what produces images, then wouldnt you render yourself completely dark or blank if you were going faster than light? because the light is slower, it hasnt had a chance to catch up and bounce of you (or any object?) and enter your eye- you are going faster than light!

does this make any sense? i keep thinking about it.

Zonabi, let me try and answer that.

When we go faster than the speed of sound, do we stop hearing? Wouldn't there be light speeding ahead of you too. Wouldn't there be light inside the craft.

@goofyfish
>Fun to speculate, but as difficult to prove as an alien theory, I guess.

Not so difficult to prove. Why not make DNA analysis when living "aliens" or bodies are found.
Even if the external aspects of these beings are quite different from humans, they can be descendants if, let's say 90-95% of DNA match.
You can suppose that this evolution is due to the fact that earth living conditions change radically in the future.

Humans and apes do also diverge by 10% of their DNA only, and they look quite differently.


Other idea: Time Travel not for materia or people, but for information like radio or TV signal...

As time travel, for example by using a singularity, happens under extreme conditions (gravity, pressure, magnetic fields...?) it's not so obvious that a living organism can survive it.

So it could be more simple and secure to send information, why not a TV or radio signal into the future, or into the past...?

I don't beleive in "alien visitors' , flying saucers, or alien abductions or of any that. But just for discussion sake, if the claims about "visitors" were in any way true could it be they come another dimension or parallel universe? I'm no physcist but I've heard string theory supports the idea of multiple dimensions. Perhaps instead of being aliens from other planets or time travelers they are from another dimension and have some how learned to enter our dimension?

They would still be called "aliens". Even Mexicans are called aliens in USA.....:D

My personal belief is that they are either from our future or from another dimension where the travel takes place quickly.

In either case a breakthrough in science is necessary to even suggest that.

i believe the answer is:
e) all of the above

perhaps similar humanoid aliens are from our future (i doubt this one)
perhaps the greys are from another distant planet
perhaps spirits and ghosts are from another dimension

yes- radio waves and television channel waves do travel through time as they get lost in space.
perhaps this is how aliens were able to find us ?
perhaps this is a way to find aliens !
(only drawback is i doubt alien life has media like ours ~ tv, radio, not to mention the fact that their technology could be far different from our current stuff)
but the fact remains, signals and waves we send out do in fact travel thru time in space, and could definetely be retrieved by another life form, if they have good enough technology to catch it.

I don't beleive in "alien visitors' , flying saucers, or alien abductions or of any that. But just for discussion sake, if the claims about "visitors" were in any way true could it be they come another dimension or parallel universe? I'm no physcist but I've heard string theory supports the idea of multiple dimensions. Perhaps instead of being aliens from other planets or time travelers they are from another dimension and have some how learned to enter our dimension?

And perhaps, they are from our own dimension, and transit through another dimension, as a short-cut, to get to us.