Thoughts on Modesty

By Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood*

“Every religion has its characteristic, and the characteristic of Islam is modesty.”

This statement made some 1400 years ago by the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is just as relevant today as it was then. The Prophet lived in turbulent times, when slavery, debauchery, drunkenness and sexual abuse was rife; when poor women could be maltreated without redress and wealthy women could live totally without morals if they wished, without much criticism.

When the Prophet was a teenage boy he was one of the founder members of a society of “Knights of Justice” created by his uncle, determined to bring protection and fair dealing to the weak and insecure. He, and those of like mind, were loved and admired for their nobility, years before the revelation of Islam. The revelations, when they came, encouraged and exhorted them to show others that compassion, generosity, courage, modesty and patient faith were the right way to live.

Modesty is such a ‘quiet’ characteristic, that perhaps nobody thinks about it very much.

Modesty is such a ‘quiet’ characteristic, that perhaps nobody thinks about it very much. What are modest people like? They are self-effacing, and humble; they do not wish to draw too much attention to themselves. They feel embarrassed when they are given praise, and genuinely do not really feel they have done all that much to deserve it, for everything they do is no more than their duty and their delight, in serving God. They would hate to be picked out for praise above their fellows, or pushed forward into the limelight, shown off, or made to perform ‘party pieces’ for the applause of others.

Modesty also implies a personal and physical shyness and reticence, as opposed to a wish to flaunt themselves for their physical charms. In this day and age, when it seems to be taken for granted that young women wish to walk down the streets of town wearing garments that cover little more than their underwear does, and when everything seems geared up to a lifestyle that encourages females to make themselves as sexually attractive as possible, and to feel failures if they are not turning heads, women who are not like that, and do not wish to be, are regarded by some as being rather odd.

It is an unfortunate sort of discrimination, for in actual fact very large numbers of girls and women are naturally modest, and do not wish to flaunt themselves at all, and feel no sense of distress or loss if they are not arousing male desires or interested glances. Wearing hijab, or becoming a ‘covered lady’, is one of the odd problems facing girls and women who convert to Islam and who then decide to alter their style of clothing, and/or wear a head-veil.

Ironically, genuinely shy and modest women can feel really uneasy and ‘forced into the arena of public scrutiny’ when they change old habits; putting on hijab can cause people who know you to stare, or wonder why you suddenly think yourself to be ‘better’ or ‘more holy’ than them, or to bring out remarks about how well they know what you are really like; or to wonder why you are seeking to ‘dress up in fancy dress’, or pretending to be an Arab or a Pakistani or whatever. Muslim women who take the further step of covering their faces often face a similar reaction from Muslim women who don’t.

Modest behavior implies the genuine desire to do good for no reason other than to please Allah, seeking no reward, or thanks, or public notice.

This is not something that male Muslims know very much about. There is no equivalent requirement for a man as regards his clothing, or head-covering, or face-covering. I suppose something similar would be for a convert man to feel it was a good thing required by Allah to turn up at the office or go to the garage or factory in an Arab long white dress, and put a bag over his head.

Yet there are rules in Islam for male modesty. I have winced in horror on a plane coming home from Damascus in which all the male passengers were Muslims, except a couple of western tourists, who wore shirts open to the waist (sweat, chest-hair and all), and shorts, and were quite oblivious to (or not bothered by) the reaction of distaste from those all around them. In fact, male Muslims are also expected to dress modestly, in clean clothing that covers them and does not emphasize their sexuality.

Needless to say, it is not only modest clothing that is required, but also modest behavior-not the Dickensian Uriah-Heepish sort of crawling humility-but the genuine desire to do good for no reason other than to please Allah, seeking no reward, or thanks, or public notice. The cover-up clothing of Muslim women is not intended as a punishment or an endurance test, but as a wish to appear graceful and feminine without encouraging any sexual advances. ‘Covered ladies’ are not necessarily innocent youngsters, virgins about to be sacrificed in marriage, but may be mothers of half a dozen children, perhaps married several times.

http://www.islamonline.net/english/introducingislam/Individual/article03.shtml

I would think that a thread on modesty from you is the most fucking ironic thing I have ever seen in my entire life...


congrats

Why don't you modestly explain your position on the Islamic terror attack in Spain?

Modest behavior implies the genuine desire to do good for no reason other than to please Allah, seeking no reward, or thanks, or public notice.


You shouldn't be on this forum then copy-pasting links.

Proud Muslim, Thank you so much on your discourse on modesty as prescribed by your particular beliefs.

The only comment that I wished to make was that I have found that when one represses his or her's natural inclinations one must be prepared for behaviours that will compensate for the repression. In other words I would thinkit better that one deals with the issues that require sexual repression rather than covering them up.

Obviously the main reason that women are required to dress the way they do is mainly because the men that surround them have difficulty with their own physical desires and so they repress natural urges so as to maintain an order that is a bit like a pressure cooker waiting to go off.

The Christian Church has shown what happens when persons suffer denial. It tends to lead to perverted and distorted behaviours in other areas or life. I might add that not all abstaining priest are perverted. Nor are all abstaining Muslims.

Surely, would it not be better to learn the way of living with out unecessary repression than to live in a state of constant conflict due to avoiding this learning?

Today's thread seems modest indeed. Good but strange, why modesty suddenly surfaces out of the blue.?!

I would think that a thread on modesty from you is the most fucking ironic thing I have ever seen in my entire life...
congrats

Thank you, I hope you will benefit from this thread.

Proud Muslim, Thank you so much on your discourse on modesty as prescribed by your particular beliefs.

Your welcome.

The only comment that I wished to make was that I have found that when one represses his or her's natural inclinations one must be prepared for behaviours that will compensate for the repression. In other words I would thinkit better that one deals with the issues that require sexual repression rather than covering them up.

I agree, we see what happened when priests are banned from fulfilling natural urge ( Sex ).

Obviously the main reason that women are required to dress the way they do is mainly because the men that surround them have difficulty with their own physical desires and so they repress natural urges so as to maintain an order that is a bit like a pressure cooker waiting to go off.

Yes, but the Quran instructs both men and women to be modest, The Quran asks us (men ) to lower our gaze and to dress modesly as well ( not to wear open chest shirts or shorts ).

So the attraction goes both ways.

The Christian Church has shown what happens when persons suffer denial. It tends to lead to perverted and distorted behaviours in other areas or life. I might add that not all abstaining priest are perverted. Nor are all abstaining Muslims.

But Muslims are not abstaining, we get married, our prophet got married many times, we dont supress this urge, we channel it in a way that quaranttes safety for all ( look at AIDS and how it spreads, look at the illegal childern born outside the bond of marriage, infidelity, adultery....etc ) all these actions are very harmful to the society if they are not indeed organized and in some cases supressed by human traits ( conscious for example ).

Surely, would it not be better to learn the way of living with out unecessary repression than to live in a state of constant conflict due to avoiding this learning?

Well, if you are refering to Muslims dress code for women, then the women who chose freely to observe it dont see it that way.

I know many western women who converted to Islam and observed the headscarf and the modest code of dress in Islam, they dont see it as oppression but rather as liberation from the intrusive eyes of the men around them.

Look at nature, every valuable thing is hidden and covered, if you want oil you need to dig deep down to get it, the same for diamond, the same for pearls, you need to dive deep down the sea to get them..so Islam works with nature, women for us are very dear and valuable, they need to be protected and the Islamic dress code quranttes that to large degree, it does not offer 100% protection but it helps a lot, after all, will you go after modesly headscarfed woman or after a woman with open chest and short skirts ?

Here's the problem PM, you treat women as some property of yours or the states or the religion. What gives you the right to determine how a woman dresses or what you deem is appropriate?

Before Jews, Christians and Muslims came around most of the people on this earth went around naked. I imagine adam and eve werent given any clothes when they were created. Even up to the 20th century some amazonian tribes still went around naked with no societal problems.(Not only south america but most of africa)

It's religion that teaches shame and creates all kinds of sexual abberations. If people were not indoctrinated early with religious bullshit, nudity would have been normal and sexual crime minimized.

If modesty is such a good thing why do Islamic males live by the same standard they think females should observe.

I think that the main problem is that religion is designed to control the lowest common denominator.
Some men regardless of religion can not cope with the sight of women or even the thought of women so the whole of the society is structured to protect itself from such individuals. Such is the need for censorship and self denial.

The declaration of islamic modesty displayed by Pathological_Muslim is false, coming as it does after a long history of inflated, grandiosity-laden statements made in a pompous and aggressive manner. Devoid of a proper education, he adopts the vocabulary of Islam in an attempt to gloss over complicated subjects and situations in life with a veneer of pious rightousness. Now he would have you believe that the unnatural and damaging guilt religion has associated with sex is supposed to be a virtue. What a joke.

Scenario


A long tme ago when man was just a wandering tribe he allowed himself every impulse and every indulgence......in doing so he created havoc and chaos and needed to change his ways if he was to find a greater happiness for himself and his loved ones. .....so Along comes religion with all it's trapings to place a rule upon people so that they couild behave better and blame their need for denial on God.........Later on some sectors of mankind realised that the need for denial and oppression was not as necessary as it was so long ago and set about liberating himself by learning about him self and stopping this "blame it on God" business........he decided that censorship whilst necessary for some was not necessary for all and that one of the ways to achieve maturity was through exposure to what he feared the most....namely himself........and in a distant galaxy many light years in the past............

Here's the problem PM, you treat women as some property of yours or the states or the religion. What gives you the right to determine how a woman dresses or what you deem is appropriate?

No one has the right to determine what women should dress but the ONE who created them, GOD and God told them in the Quran to be modest.

It's religion that teaches shame and creates all kinds of sexual abberations. If people were not indoctrinated early with religious bullshit, nudity would have been normal and sexual crime minimized.

It is only religion that elevated people from barbarism and CANNIBALISM and adulterous age to the age of purity, modesty, family and civilization.

I think that the main problem is that religion is designed to control the lowest common denominator.
Some men regardless of religion can not cope with the sight of women or even the thought of women so the whole of the society is structured to protect itself from such individuals. Such is the need for censorship and self denial.

Oh I see, now you are blaming men for everything, isnt that sexist ???? :rolleyes:

No one has the right to determine what women should dress but the ONE who created them, GOD and God told them in the Quran to be modest.


Why did your god create women with breasts, vagina, butt, chin, neck, back and other sexual objects?

Wouldn't it have been easier to not do that or just create only blind men?

Oh I see, now you are blaming men for everything, isnt that sexist ????

Proud Muslem,

You can't have it both ways....there is no question that men take a superior stance and status in Islam.....There is no doubt that women are the subject of male controls.......there is no doubt that Muslem males act as agents for their God.......so tell me am I being sexist when I say that it is only the mans lack of self discipline that requires such strong and oppressive censorship and enslavement of probably the most beautiful thing "God" has ever created..... that being women?

Why did your god create women with breasts, vagina, butt, chin, neck, back and other sexual objects?

Wouldn't it have been easier to not do that or just create only blind men?

Allah almighty created BOTH women and men with sexula traits so that they can 1- procreate and 2- enjoy sex.

Islam is unlike christianity and other religions look at sex as way to pleasure oneself ( for both men and women ) and to procreate...Islam indeed does make sense.

Islam is unlike christianity and other religions look at sex as way to pleasure oneself ( for both men and women ) and to procreate...Islam indeed does make sense.

I wish your sentence made sense.

Proud Muslem,

You can't have it both ways....there is no question that men take a superior stance and status in Islam.....There is no doubt that women are the subject of male controls.......there is no doubt that Muslem males act as agents for their God.......

I think you are very misinformed about gender equality in Islam, let me explain:

Gender Equality in Islam

"I shall not lose sight of the labor of any of you who labors in My way, be it man or woman; each of you is equal to the other (3:195)"

Spiritual equality, responsibility and accountability for both men and women is a well-developed theme in the Quran. Spiritual equality between men and women in the sight of God is not limited to purely spiritual, religious issues, but is the basis for equality in all temporal aspects of human endeavor.

Adam and Eve: Gender Equality

The concept of gender equality is best exemplified in the Quranic rendition of Adam and Eve. The Quran states that both sexes were deliberate and independent and there is no mention of Eve being created out of Adam's rib or anything else. Even in the issue of which sex was created first is not specified, implying that for our purpose in this world, it may not matter.


"O mankind! Be conscious of your Sustainer, who has created you out of one living entity (nafs), and out of it created its mate, and out of hte two spread abroad a multitude of men and women. And remain conscious of God, in whose name you demand your rights from one another, and of these ties of kinship. Verily, God is ever watchful over you! (4:1)"

Quranic translators disagree on the meaning of "nafs" in the above verse which Muhammad Asad translates as "living entity." Many claim that "nafs" translates as "person," that is, Adam. But according to Asad and other scholars, God created humankind and its sexual counterpart out of its own kind. The Arabic word referring to mate (zawj) in the above Quranic verse is grammatically neutral and can be applied both ot male and female interchangeably. So it is not clear, nor should we conjecture, that Adam was created first, Eve was created out of Adam, or that Eve/woman is innately subservient to Adam/man. The fact that this Quranic verse does not specify one specific sex over the other is proof of gender non-bias and equality. It is commonly (and mistakenly) argued that Adam was created first, and that by this gesture God finds the male dominant and superior to the female; however, the wording of the Quran in the aforementioned verse does not support this claim.

The Quran describes how Adam and Eve were told to avoid a specific tree, which they both approached. For this act of disobedience to God, they were consequently banished from the garden; however, later both repented and were forgiven by God. The Quran does not allude to Eve tempting Adam to eat from the tree and being responsible for their downfall. In the Quranic version, both were held accountable and both paid the price for their choices, proving that gender equality is an intrinsic part of Islamic belief. (See Quran 2:30-37)

Accountability, Independence, and Freedom of Choice

Women are independent individuals, as exemplified by the fact that all human beings will be accountable for their own intentions and deeds on the Day of Judgment when "no human being shall be of the least avail to another human being" (82:19) If men were ultimately responsibile for women (fathers for their daughters, husbands for their wives, etc.), then this accountability would be solely on men's shoulders to bear until the Day of Judgment. But this is not the case: "And whatever wrong any human being commits rests upon himself alone; and no bearer of burdens shall be made to bear another's burden..." (6:165)

Consequently, we cannot be judged according to our own deeds unless we have the freedom of choice to do so. This free choice carries with it the responsibility to make the right choices or paying the consequence for wrong ones, best exemplified by Adam and Eve.

Equality in Practice

In the Quran, reference to men and women is through attributes and deeds, by which we will be judged. The most pious of us, or those who follow God's commands, are referred to as "believers" or "mu'mineen" (pl.) in the Quran. In many references, in fact, the Quran resonates this equality by eloquently repeating "men and women" with ethical and practical qualities throughout the verses, and even emphasizes this ten times in the following verse:

"Verily for all men and women who have surrendered themselves unto God, and all believing men and believing women, and all truly devout men and truly devout women, and all men and women who are true to their word, and all men and women who are patient in adversity, and all men and women who humble themselves before God, and all men and women who give in charity, and all self-denying men and self-denying women, and all men and women who are mindful of their chastity, and all men and women who remmber God unceasingly: for all of them has God readied forgiveness of sins and a mighty reward." (33:35)

It is paramount to understand that the Quran equates being a "mu'min" (sing.) with actual practice, so that it is not enough to just have faith in principle; we must put our faith into practice. The same applies to our belief in the equality of men and women; gender equality as outlined in the Quran must also be put into practice. In reference to the above verse, modern scholar Laila Ahmed in "Women and Gender in Islam" says that "the implications are far-reaching. Ethical qualities, including those invoked here--charity, chastity, truthfulness, patience, piety--also have political and social dimensions."

SOURCE: Muslim Women leauge in the United States of America:

http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/positionpapers/gender.html

More here:

http://www.jannah.org/genderequity/equitynotes.html

I highly recommend this for you:

Gender Equality and Justice in Islam
by Riffat Hassan, Ph.D.

http://www.irfi.org/Islamic%20Articles%20Folder3/Dr.%20Riffat%20Hassan/gender_equality_and_justice_in_i.htm

I wish your sentence made sense.

if you have sense, then it will make sense.

if you have sense, then it will make sense.


it has too many words missing to make sense!

Proud Muslem,
From your discourse you sound firm in your beliefs in the equality of both genders and I respect this.

It may also be true that the majority of Muslem peoples are of similar implied and other integrity as you have tried to show us.

It is an unfortunate reality that what you are telling us is contrary to the reality of the worlds state of terror caused by be it may extremist elements of your faith.

If I had a wish I would wish that all Muslems read your words and behave accordingly and that women are no longer left uneducated, beaten for minor indescretions and subjected to servitude by their male masters at a global scale.

It is not here that you should be posting but at forums where Muslems preach extremist views about Islam and extreme religious bigotry by Islam as being acceptable.

Here in the west we mostly already share views of equality of genders etc and most importantly we attempt to achieve religious tolerance and not the bigotry we some times see displayed by some religions.

Your words tell me that you are trying to defend the integrity of Islam....I would suggest that you fight your cause where it is needed and where it will achieve what you desire and that is with other more extreme Muslems.

Then when you are successful and Muslem women enjoy the same equality and rights as they do in the West Come back and tell us of your success.....

But I want to see it happen...like no terrorism, no planes flying in to buildings, no beatings on TV......educated children regardless of gender......hospital care and birth control rights etc etc etc......

In fact a good place to start is the Charter of Human Rights ( United nations 1948 ) have a read and ask your self......how close are you?

it has too many words missing to make sense!

or it has so much sense that you cant find a words to refute it !! :rolleyes:

Islam is unlike christianity and other religions look at sex as way to pleasure oneself ( for both men and women ) and to procreate...Islam indeed does make sense.


analysis:

Islam is unlike christianity and other religions; look at sex as way to pleasure oneself ( for both men and women ) and to procreate...Islam indeed does make sense.

- the three parts have no connection to each other
or

Islam is unlike christianity; And other religions look at sex as way to pleasure oneself ( for both men and women ) and to procreate...Islam indeed does make sense.

- a grammatical nightmare




and 'Islam indeed does make sense' has no connection with the previous sentence.

So an educated guess would be that the sentence is crooked and incorrect. But of course it is modest of you to tell me that you wrote a perfectly good sentence which I should be able to understand. Newsflash; it is a shit sentence that doesn't make sense.

You modest muslim.

Proud Muslem,

It is an unfortunate reality that what you are telling us is contrary to the reality of the worlds state of terror caused by be it may extremist elements of your faith.

This is what your biased media show you, they dont show you that the spots in the world where NON MUSLIM SO CALLED TERRORISM is raging is far more than the places where Muslims involved.

If I had a wish I would wish that all Muslems read your words and behave accordingly and that women are no longer left uneducated, beaten for minor indescretions and subjected to servitude by their male masters at a global scale.

I agree that there are some problems in some muslim countries and so in America ( 4 american women are ** murdered** every day as a result of domestic violence ) but your media show you only the bad side:

rememebr, every story has 2 sides, you are only seeing one side, for example, your media does not tell you that the president of the largest Muslim country in the world ( Indonesia ) is indeed a Muslim woman !!! they dont tell you that AMERICA failed to elect a single woman as its president !

Your media does not tell you that every 12 seconds an american woman is battered and that about 8 million american women are raped every year !

They only concentrate on the bad stories because they sell well for the advertisment space ! imagine if I take my camera and went to the states or to the UK and start filiming about the western women who suffer so much abuse ( domestic violece ) and then come back home to Syria and broadcast this film on national TV telling my people: this is how they treat women in America !! what do you think the reaction would be ????

There is gross deliberate misinformation against Islam and Muslims.

It is not here that you should be posting but at forums where Muslems preach extremist views about Islam and extreme religious bigotry by Islam as being acceptable.

I do fight extremists all the time, but I dont think it is fair to make terrorism or extremism exculsivly Muslim, look at the jewish extremists and terrorists in Palestine, look what they are doing to the palestineans ! why we dont hear about this jewish terror ????

Or look at the Tamil tigers ( hindu terrorists ), why we dont hear about their suicide bombings ??? or the maoist rebels in Nepol, why we dont hear about their terrorism ?

Or the Lord Resistance Army in Uganda, a chrisitan terrorist organization that massacred thousands of innocent civilians?

Or the christian serbs and their massacres against Muslims in Bosnia ??

Or the Russian terrorism against Muslims in chechnya ??

Or the Indian terrorism against Muslims in Keshmir ??

Here is a link about the above massacres, just click on the left side of the page on the country name and you will see live pitures:

http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/

Your words tell me that you are trying to defend the integrity of Islam....I would suggest that you fight your cause where it is needed and where it will achieve what you desire and that is with other more extreme Muslems.

I agree with you, but what I see here is pure hate and ISLAMOPHOBIA against my faith, I think it is my duty also to expell some lies and myths displayed by some posters here about Islam.

You sound very reasonable person and I will be very happy to discuss anything you want about Islam and Muslims.

Then when you are successful and Muslem women enjoy the same equality and rights as they do in the West Come back and tell us of your success.....

I think you are so mistaken to think Western Women enjoy so much equality and rights, I believe Muslim women in many Muslim states enjoy more rights than western women, let me show you some statistics about women abuse in the west:

National Statistics
Domestic violence has become one of the most common of all crimes. Here are some National Statistics:

Every 12 to 15 seconds a woman is battered in the United States.

95% of all domestic violence is committed by males against their female partners. (NCADV)

Domestic violence is the largest single cause of injury to women in the U.S.- more than injuries from auto accidents, muggings and rapes combined. (Surgeon General of the U.S.)

Estimates range from 960,000 incidents of violence against a current or former spouse, boyfriend, or girlfriend per year (U.S. Department of Justice, Violence by Intimates: Analysis of Data on Crimes by Current or Former Spouses, Boyfriends, and Girlfriends, March 1998) to three million women who are physically abused by their husband or boyfriend per year. (The Commonwealth Fund, Health Concerns Across a Woman's Lifespan: 1998 Survey of Women's Health, May 1999)
Around the world, at least one in every three women has been beaten, coerced into sex or otherwise abused during her lifetime.( Heise, L., Ellsberg, M. and Gottemoeller, M. Ending Violence Against Women. Population Reports, Series L, No. 11., December 1999)
Nearly one-third of American women (31 percent) report being physically or sexually abused by a husband or boyfriend at some point in their lives, according to a 1998 Commonwealth Fund survey. (The Commonwealth Fund, Health Concerns Across a Woman's Lifespan: 1998 Survey of Women's Health, May 1999)
Intimate partner violence is primarily a crime against women. In 1999, women accounted for 85 percent of the victims of intimate partner violence (671,110 total) and men accounted for 15 percent of the victims (120,100 total). (Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report, Intimate Partner Violence and Age of Victim, 1993-99, October 2001)

While women are less likely than men to be victims of violent crimes overall, women are five to eight times more likely than men to be victimized by an intimate partner. (U.S. Department of Justice, Violence by Intimates: Analysis of Data on Crimes by Current or Former Spouses, Boyfriends, and Girlfriends, March 1998) From 1993 to 1998, victimization by an intimate accounted for 22 percent of the violence experienced by females. It accounted for three percent of the violent crime sustained by males. (U.S. Department of Justice, Intimate Partner Violence, May 2000.)

Women are seven to 14 times more likely than men to report suffering severe physical assaults from an intimate partner. (National Institute of Justice and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, November 1998.)

On average, more than three women are murdered by their husbands or boyfriends in this country every day. In 1999, 1,642 murders were attributed to intimates; 74 percent of the murder victims. (Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report, Intimate Partner Violence and Age of Victim, 1993-99, October 2001)

But I want to see it happen...like no terrorism, no planes flying in to buildings, no beatings on TV......educated children regardless of gender......hospital care and birth control rights etc etc etc......

If you dont want to see planes flying in to buildings, stop sending planes flying into our air spaces and stop sending your bombers to kill our civilians.

In fact a good place to start is the Charter of Human Rights ( United nations 1948 ) have a read and ask your self......how close are you?

Given the above statistics about women abuse in the west, I think it is you guys who need to ask yourselfs, how close are you to this charter ?

National Statistics
Domestic violence has become one of the most common of all crimes. Here are some National Statistics:

Every 12 to 15 seconds a woman is battered in the United States.

95% of all domestic violence is committed by males against their female partners. (NCADV)

Domestic violence is the largest single cause of injury to women in the U.S.- more than injuries from auto accidents, muggings and rapes combined. (Surgeon General of the U.S.)

Estimates range from 960,000 incidents of violence against a current or former spouse, boyfriend, or girlfriend per year (U.S. Department of Justice, Violence by Intimates: Analysis of Data on Crimes by Current or Former Spouses, Boyfriends, and Girlfriends, March 1998) to three million women who are physically abused by their husband or boyfriend per year. (The Commonwealth Fund, Health Concerns Across a Woman's Lifespan: 1998 Survey of Women's Health, May 1999)
Around the world, at least one in every three women has been beaten, coerced into sex or otherwise abused during her lifetime.( Heise, L., Ellsberg, M. and Gottemoeller, M. Ending Violence Against Women. Population Reports, Series L, No. 11., December 1999)
Nearly one-third of American women (31 percent) report being physically or sexually abused by a husband or boyfriend at some point in their lives, according to a 1998 Commonwealth Fund survey. (The Commonwealth Fund, Health Concerns Across a Woman's Lifespan: 1998 Survey of Women's Health, May 1999)
Intimate partner violence is primarily a crime against women. In 1999, women accounted for 85 percent of the victims of intimate partner violence (671,110 total) and men accounted for 15 percent of the victims (120,100 total). (Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report, Intimate Partner Violence and Age of Victim, 1993-99, October 2001)

While women are less likely than men to be victims of violent crimes overall, women are five to eight times more likely than men to be victimized by an intimate partner. (U.S. Department of Justice, Violence by Intimates: Analysis of Data on Crimes by Current or Former Spouses, Boyfriends, and Girlfriends, March 1998) From 1993 to 1998, victimization by an intimate accounted for 22 percent of the violence experienced by females. It accounted for three percent of the violent crime sustained by males. (U.S. Department of Justice, Intimate Partner Violence, May 2000.)

Women are seven to 14 times more likely than men to report suffering severe physical assaults from an intimate partner. (National Institute of Justice and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, November 1998.)

On average, more than three women are murdered by their husbands or boyfriends in this country every day. In 1999, 1,642 murders were attributed to intimates; 74 percent of the murder victims. (Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report, Intimate Partner Violence and Age of Victim, 1993-99, October 2001)

Hmm wonder how many of these women are married to a muslim. Wonder if that is investigated

I find it very hypocritical, how the majority of this forum dismisses ETI and "pseudo science" calling it nonsense. Yet, engage PM's nonsense, which really is nonsense in the true sense of the word.

Truth hurts, it specifically hurts when it comes from MUSLIMS.

Truth hurts, it specifically hurts when it comes from MUSLIMS.
What truth? About the abused women? I'm guessing alot of those abused women were abused by their muslim husband.

God help you !! :D

PM sez:

What are modest people like? They are self-effacing, and humble; they do not wish to draw too much attention to themselves.

Based on your definition, I have yet to see a 'modest' muslim.

Proud_Muslim=No one has the right to determine what women should dress but the ONE who created them, GOD and God told them in the Quran to be modest.

Greco=How come God dint say anything to the indians in South America or the people of New Guine or most of the tribes of Africa. Does your God only like Arabs? Or maybe just like the Jews you claim that you are the chosen people?If God was fair he would pass the word to everyone at once and not depend on some self appointed conduits to pass the word of God.

PM=It is only religion that elevated people from barbarism and CANNIBALISM and adulterous age to the age of purity, modesty, family and civilization.

Greco=Greece had a magificent civilization before Islam was created and it was partialy religion that set back Greek civilization. Dont think I'm picking on Muslims, I think all religions are dangerous, counter-productive and delusional.

The only reason one can find statistics about abuse of women in the west is because someone is trying hard to eradicate this problem. I doubt accurate statistics could be found of abuse of women in muslim countries because it is not considered a problem, so ingrained is abuse into muslim culture.

34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.(Qu'orn, Sura al-Nisa´ 4:34).

Proud Muslim if you want to go around all covered up please do but do not dare to tell women how they must dress. If they chose to follow your religion that is their right but the rest of us have no intention of allowing anyone to dictate to us how we dress. Religion is a personal choice and you have no right to foist your religious beliefs on others.

Proud Muslem,

Some times the price of freedom can be very high. N.B. Freedom does not necessarilly equate with Peace.

When you look at the USA and the freedoms that it's political and social systems allow you have to admit it's incredible how successful they are.

Is it any wonder that freedom can cause problems?

Is it any wonder that freedom even if painful is worth striving for?

Self determination free from religious imprisonment is never an easy path.

Proud Muslim if you want to go around all covered up please do but do not dare to tell women how they must dress. If they chose to follow your religion that is their right but the rest of us have no intention of allowing anyone to dictate to us how we dress. Religion is a personal choice and you have no right to foist your religious beliefs on others.

Well candi,your hedonistic moraly corrupt western societies are indeed dictating what western women should dress, if you dont dress sexually then you are peice of garbage and you know it.

let us look and compare:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/p6_girlpray.jpg

This is a picture of a typical Muslim woman. Pure, innocent, virgin (until marriage) and non sexual. A true man would be willing to die for a true and blessed angel of that kind, because if she's faithful to her GOD Almighty, then she will definitely be faithful and honorable to her family.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/swimsuit3.jpg

Even though I tried to pick the least sexual pictures, but in general, this is what a typical western woman would look like when she is at either the beach (wearing bikinis) or health club, where 95% to 99% of her body is totally exposed to men. cheap meat worth nothing.

I am not generalizing all western women. I am certain there are many Angelic ones out there who remain virgins until marriage and are non-sexual, and they are fully devoted to GOD Almighty. But I believe that it is safe to say that more than 90% of the Christian women world-wide are Satanic.

Proud Muslem,

Some times the price of freedom can be very high. N.B. Freedom does not necessarilly equate with Peace.
When you look at the USA and the freedoms that it's political and social systems allow you have to admit it's incredible how successful they are.

America is NOT free, it is controled by zionists and corporate ethics in which the poor and the weak are crushed.

Is it any wonder that freedom can cause problems?

Some times the borders between freedom and chaos become so tiny.

Proud Muslem, can I ask you teh same question I want to ask Osama Bin Ladin?

What is your solution to terrorism?

What would you have the world do if you had the power to govern the world?

Well candi,your hedonistic moraly corrupt western societies are indeed dictating what western women should dress, if you dont dress sexually then you are peice of garbage and you know it.

let us look and compare:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/p6_girlpray.jpg

This is a picture of a typical Muslim woman. Pure, innocent, virgin (until marriage) and non sexual. A true man would be willing to die for a true and blessed angel of that kind, because if she's faithful to her GOD Almighty, then she will definitely be faithful and honorable to her family.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/swimsuit3.jpg

Even though I tried to pick the least sexual pictures, but in general, this is what a typical western woman would look like when she is at either the beach (wearing bikinis) or health club, where 95% to 99% of her body is totally exposed to men. cheap meat worth nothing.

I am not generalizing all western women. I am certain there are many Angelic ones out there who remain virgins until marriage and are non-sexual, and they are fully devoted to GOD Almighty. But I believe that it is safe to say that more than 90% of the Christian women world-wide are Satanic.

So according the muslims the perfect picture of a woman is a child? Perverts.

But I believe that it is safe to say that more than 90% of the Christian women world-wide are Satanic.

Well you probably won't have a problem with me saying that 90% of the muslims are terrorists then :rolleyes:

HAHA

I knew he was an idiot, but now that, that was just pathetic!
If you are going to generalize like that, PM(Pathetic Muslim) then look here:

The image of a perfect Muslim man:

http://terrorism.freeservers.com/images/osama.jpg

The image of a perfect Western Man:

http://www.muscleweb.com/SagiMWCover.jpg

Look at you pathetic little beareded men with their AK-47(Muslim fashion accesory?) that look like they stepped out of the middle ages.

;)

Wrong dude, you know that bin laden is NOT the average Muslim, so try again ! :D

Well you probably won't have a problem with me saying that 90% of the muslims are terrorists then

Well, if it is coming from someone with your logic, then I have no problem at all ! :D

Proud Muslem, can I ask you teh same question I want to ask Osama Bin Ladin?

What is your solution to terrorism?

Thank you for asking Quantum, at least, you care to listen to the OTHER SIDE of the story:

throughout history, terrorism used to achieve political goals, no nation ever was able to defeat terrorism ( Look at Britian experience with the IRA ), terrorism stems from terror, if you need to tackle terrorism you have to tackle not the symptoms but rather the causes, in the case of the so called muslim terrorists, the deep roots causes is the sheer injustice inflicted on Muslims by western power, let me quote you what bin laden said regarding this matter:

''Why should fear, killing, destruction, displacement, orphaning and widowing continue to be our lot, while security, stability and happiness be your lot? ''

You need to stop aggression against Muslims, ALL Muslims agree with the above statement, some of them go further and use violence to stop this injustice, this violence is called terrorism in the west.

What would you have the world do if you had the power to govern the world?

I would stop western terrorism first:

http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/

So according the muslims the perfect picture of a woman is a child? Perverts.

Actually you are the pervert, because you think that way, I am posting a picture of perfect Muslim lady, here is some more pictures:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/Candice%20Vancraenenbroek.jpg

European Union temporary agent for research Candice Vancraenenbroek pauses before speaking during an International Women's Day Conference at the EU Charlemagne building in Brussels, Friday, March 8, 2002. Vancraenenbroek, born into a Belgian Catholic family, converted to Islam at an early age and has co-founded a group to help those women who also wish to convert

The above is our perfect picture of muslim woman as well, you see, the point is modesty and PURITY...something ''most'' western women can never have due to the advance liberal cultrue of whoring under the disguise of 'boyfriend-girlfriend relationship' nowadays, western girls lose their virginity at the age of 12-14 !! very very civilized indeed ! :rolleyes:

uh....hummmm....hey guys....whooo.......It's amazing how the fear of terrorism effects people....in all so many different ways.......in his way I am sure that Proud Muslem is just as fearful as any one else but in a different way.....

I know the thread was originally about modesty of Islam and as PM has admitted he is only trying to defend his lifes choices....

I would like to repeat my question to PM and that being how he would tackle terrorism if he was able to?

I don't ask with any disrespect as I am curious how a Muslem of such integrity would deal with this global fear and problems associated....with terrorism.

Actually you are the pervert, because you think that way, I am posting a picture of perfect Muslim lady, here is some more pictures:


No you are the pervert because you think children are women and you are afraid to look at a naked women without seeing them as a sex object.

and you have posted those pics and shit already before. parrot.

I am sorry the posts are happening too fast to keep up......

now that the world is in this vice of ethnic and religious hatred....how do you suggest this can be resolved.....?

I would like to repeat my question to PM and that being how he would tackle terrorism if he was able to?

I don't ask with any disrespect as I am curious how a Muslem of such integrity would deal with this global fear and problems associated....with terrorism.

I just answered you, please scroll up in this same page to see my answer, thank you.

No you are the pervert because you think children are women

Where did I say that ?? please dont lie, lying wont advanced your cause.

and you are afraid to look at a naked women without seeing them as a sex object.

Are you saying people like you do have sex with their full cloth on !! :D

Wrong dude, you know that bin laden is NOT the average Muslim, so try again ! :D

In that case: WRONG dude, a woman covered in a veil, is not the average Muslim woman, at least, not in an advanced country.

Actually you are the pervert, because you think that way, I am posting a picture of perfect Muslim lady, here is some more pictures:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/Candice%20Vancraenenbroek.jpg

European Union temporary agent for research Candice Vancraenenbroek pauses before speaking during an International Women's Day Conference at the EU Charlemagne building in Brussels, Friday, March 8, 2002. Vancraenenbroek, born into a Belgian Catholic family, converted to Islam at an early age and has co-founded a group to help those women who also wish to convert

The above is our perfect picture of muslim woman as well, you see, the point is modesty and PURITY...something ''most'' western women can never have due to the advance liberal cultrue of whoring under the disguise of 'boyfriend-girlfriend relationship' nowadays, western girls lose their virginity at the age of 12-14 !! very very civilized indeed ! :rolleyes:

First off, I'd cover her face with a pillow, actually scrap that - i'd cover her face with her own veil.
Secondly, who are you to say, how a woman should conduct herself? It her body, it's her mind, if she wants to flaunt it, that is her choice. If she wants to cover it, that is her choice too.

Where did I say that ?? please dont lie, lying wont advanced your cause.





This is a picture of a typical Muslim woman. Pure, innocent, virgin (until marriage) and non sexual.


You show a picture of a child.

I am sorry the posts are happening too fast to keep up......
now that the world is in this vice of ethnic and religious hatred....how do you suggest this can be resolved.....?

very good question, I am really grateful for your integrity and honesty, you are someone who I can talk with, you did not display sickning islamophobic statements, so we can talk:

Hate and vice existed since the beginning of this life when habil killed his brother qabil ( The 2 sons of Adam ) and will continue to exist until Allah Almighty claim back this earth and whoever on it...how we can reduce hate and vice is the most logical question, I believe from my own Islamic perspective that believing in Allah ( the one and the only God, His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, It is He Who gives life and causes death; and He is Able to do all things, He is the First (nothing is before Him) and the Last (nothing is after Him), the Most High (nothing is above Him) and the Most Near (nothing is nearer than Him). And He is the All-Knower of every thing ) believing in Allah the merciful, the ever lasting judge over his creation will help reduce such hate and vile.

Allah Almighty knows that there can be NO absolute justice on this earth because there will be always sinners and haters on this earth ( he gave us free will to be haters or to be good doers ) so he established the hereafter or what we call in Islam, AL AKHERA in which he with his ABSOLUTE JUSTICE will judge between people and what they have done on this earth.

Fearing Allah Almighty is a great factor in reducing hate and as the prophet muhammad ( Peace be Upon him ) said: this life is like a farm and you harvest in the hereafter, so if you spread hate and lies and mischief on this earth, you will harvest that in the hereafter.

We are seeing so much hate today because people forgot their god, they forgot their morales. Paganism and morale void athiems is again resurfacing after we thought they have gone forever with the advance of christianity and after that, Islam.

The soultion is ISLAM, Islam is the only solution left to save the world.

You show a picture of a child.

what a dumbo, did not you read, virgin UNTIL marriage, what that means ?? :rolleyes:

Secondly, who are you to say, how a woman should conduct herself? It her body, it's her mind, if she wants to flaunt it, that is her choice. If she wants to cover it, that is her choice too.

And who are you to say what they should not wear ?? I dont tell any woman what she should wear, it is her OWN FREE CHOICE.

But since you hypocrites always attack the Muslim headscarf, it is amazing to see WHITE, WESTERN, EUROPEAN AND AMERICAN BLUE EYED WOMEN AND BLACK CONVERTING TO ISLAM AND WEARING THE HEADSCARF !!! Those western women are a great confirmation of the bankruptcy of your moraly void socieites.

Accept Islam to be saved.

The soultion is ISLAM, Islam is the only solution left to save the world.

:D, and who do we worship Muhammed, the savage, or Allah, the moon and War God? I'm sure they can solve the problems of the world :rolleyes:

In that case: WRONG dude, a woman covered in a veil, is not the average Muslim woman, at least, not in an advanced country.

Advanced country ?? like the USA for example where 4 american women are ** murdered** every day as a result of domestic violence ????? :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Proud_Muslim]And who are you to say what they should not wear ?? I dont tell any woman what she should wear, it is her OWN FREE CHOICE.

And when and where did I say they should or should not wear certain types of clothes, mush for brains?

You just said it, they have their free choice. So if they want to wear a swim suit, that is their choice. So what's the problem, friend ;)

and who do we worship Muhammed, the savage, or Allah, the moon and War God? I'm sure they can solve the problems of the world

Vienna, dear vienna, why you need to use different nicks??? :rolleyes:

Advanced country ?? like the USA for example where 4 american women are ** murdered** every day as a result of domestic violence ????? :rolleyes:

At least they have rights to fight against it. In most Islamic countries, they won't even have that. In fact instead of being recognized victim, they would be persecuted.

Have you forgotten about muslim women being stoned alive for being raped, or having pre marital sex?

Vienna, dear vienna, why you need to use different nicks???

Dear moron, dear moron, why do you not use your brain? I am not Vienna. Loads of people know the truth about Islam, about Muhammed savagery, and Allah's origin as a Moon and War God - That does not make them all Vienna, clueless.

Btw - you say women have free choice, and yet at the same time, you are calling women who make the "western" choice of living, satanic? And you have the nerve, to call others hypocrites? Look in the mirror.

I said 90% of them satanic, do you understand English ? :rolleyes:

In that case, mush for brains, choke on this:

Btw - you say women have free choice, and yet at the same time, you are calling 90% of women who make the "western" choice of living, satanic? And you have the nerve, to call others hypocrites? Look in the mirror.

Muslim men say that muslim women have the same rights and respect as a man, and that Islam respects them and allows them the same freedom as men have. Of course, what needs to be tacticly understood is that they are saying this while they are in the United Kingdom, USA, Canada or some other Western nation.

Of course muslim womens rights are respected and they are not oppressed! They are living in a society where the sort of behaviour which many Muslim men display towards women in Muslim countries is not tolerated.

In the West, both law and popular opinion greatly discourage activities such as wife-beating and marriage to underage girls. Society would frown upon a man who made his wife wear a veil and stay inside the house unless he was with her. It would be neither understood nor accepted that women should have an inferior legal and moral status than men, as is held by a plain reading of the Quran and the Hadith.

Clearly, the apologism which is made by Muslim men on the basis of some supposedly "enlightened" view of women's rights is nothing more than a cloak woven to try and cover the ugly truth about Islam's attitudes toward women.

Proud Muslem and other Muslem readers:

You say you are following the word of God, you act on that premise, you believe that God demands your behaviour to be such....You believe you have the right to act as agents.......

If I were God I would suggest that you are falsley representing me, that your view is distorted by your own insecurities and quest for power. That you are not listening to me for I would never never ask you to kill someone or enslave someone. I would never ask you to strap a bomb around your waist and blow up innocent children....and I would never condone your quest for revenge.

You claim that the West is all so bad but at least the West does not hide behind God's supposed words as an excuse for their behavour and I might add God is not discovered in some book but in your heart....

If you can look in the mirror and smile at yourself about your association to the bombings in Spain then you are truelly deluded in your belief that you are God's servant.

Because God does not blow up people.......only people do....

Your actions are a slander and a defamation of God's will and If I were him I would be greatly saddened.......

This might be the funniest thread ever.
PM replies to his first critics modestly, trying to prove he is modest because he is a muslim, even though we all know he is the exact opposite of modest. So it was already transparent and comedic.
And then as the thread goes on he struggles more and more and slowly starts transforming back into PM.
He's still trying to be modest when compared to the PM we all know, despise and want to die but he's visibly struggling with the endeavor he has taken on.
I find it very amusing.
I don't get the impression of modesty off islam at all.
the way I see it they invented a character 'allah' to say is better than them, and they feel this gives them a right to say they are better than everyone else and everything else, but oh "not as great as allah" :rolleyes:
That doesn't equate to modesty, the only time you show a humility is when discussing allah directly. You don't even respect his other creations that aren't muslims.
I find it all incredibly arrogant in fact.
I find the way you freely mock and belittle apes to be arrogant. You have no idea what modesty is.

Proud Muslem and other Muslem readers:

You say you are following the word of God, you act on that premise, you believe that God demands your behaviour to be such....You believe you have the right to act as agents.......

I tend to disagree, we dont act as agents, we act in this way to benefit ourselves, God is our creator, he knows what is best for us.

If I were God I would suggest that you are falsley representing me, that your view is distorted by your own insecurities and quest for power.

I dont understand how some poor Muslims like me who follow God commands can be aiming to get power !!!!

That you are not listening to me for I would never never ask you to kill someone or enslave someone. I would never ask you to strap a bomb around your waist and blow up innocent children....and I would never condone your quest for revenge.

Well God does not tell us to kill anyone UNJUSTLY, on the other hand, God is JUST, killers will be killed, why God should allow someone who STOLE life from someone else to live ?? it is not fair.

You claim that the West is all so bad but at least the West does not hide behind God's supposed words as an excuse for their behavour and I might add God is not discovered in some book but in your heart....

No you got me wrong here, I dont say the west is all so bad, you have great things which we muslims dont have and we should learn from you ( as you learned from us in the middle ages ) we dont hide behind God, you do hide behind shining empty symbols like human rights and democrasy, I mean look at this:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39963000/jpg/_39963571_shake203.jpg

Tony Blair, the British PM shakes hands with well known tyrannt and dictator where thousands of people are tortured and killed, read here:

Blair visit to Libya brings little hope to dissidents on Death Row

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa/story.jsp?story=505451

What do you call that my friend ?? where is your concern about HUMAN RIGHTS, FREEDOM AND DEMOCRASY ?? or is it the moment you smell oil you forget all about your principles ???????? :mad:

If you can look in the mirror and smile at yourself about your association to the bombings in Spain then you are truelly deluded in your belief that you are God's servant.

it is amazing how you are trying to make the bombings in Madrid an isolated matter without connecting it to what is happening in Iraq ( Muslim land ) and other Muslim lands, let me show you what JOSE MARIA AZNAR DID IN IRAQ WITH BLAIR AND BUSH:

http://forums.gawaher.com/index.php?act=ST&f=65&t=495&

Scroll down to see more pictures...now, why you dont talk about the thousands of INNOCENT IRAQI MUSLIMS MURDERED by you and your countries ???????????????

Islam and Muslims are against terrorism, but and here is big BUT, when Muslims are killed daily by you, you cant expect to live safe, do you ??

http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com

Because God does not blow up people.......only people do....

Exactly, and that is why you guys are doing to us, blowing up INNOCENT MUSLIMS from the safety of the sky.

Your actions are a slander and a defamation of God's will and If I were him I would be greatly saddened...

And what about your own actions and your own terrorism ?????

No you got me wrong here, I dont say the west is all so bad, you have great things which we muslims dont have and we should learn from you ( as you learned from us in the middle ages ) we dont hide behind God, you do hide behind shining empty symbols like human rights and democrasy, I mean look at this

Just when I thought he was going to say a good thing about the west, to look modest, he weaves in this "(as you learned from us in the middle ages)

PM, it's called politics, you dunce.

do you know what politics is in the first place vienna ??? :rolleyes:

The key difference is that The West does not kill in the name of God. They don't assume devine rights as you do.

I think God is quite capable of handing out justice by himself with out your help.

When that time comes Proud Muslem will you be able to be as confident as you are now.

When a 14 year old ends up in front of his creator after bombing a bus.....what do you think God will think behind his tears?

God didn't write your book...a man did... and I might add it was an awful long time ago.......maybe it needs a rewrite........
God forgives his children but he never forgets his sadness

Bush and libya is all about ending the killing......forgiving the past and moving forward....the world has never had an opportunity it has now......to solve it's problems...

violence is like a rollercoaster ride......you have to wait until you throw up before you decide to get off.

PM, it would modest of you if you would claim to be an idiot.

Honestly, because you are the biggest idiot I have ever seen.

The key difference is that The West does not kill in the name of God. They don't assume devine rights as you do.

The west does not kill by the name of God !!! how about burning catholics on the stick ?? or burning protestants alive ??? how about the religious wars started in the west ??? how about the crusaders ??????????

and if you tell me this was in the past, I will tell you now you kill in the name of the all mighty $$$$ so what the difference, KILLING IS KILLING.

I think God is quite capable of handing out justice by himself with out your help.

INDEED and that is why we muslims believe in the hereafter.

When that time comes Proud Muslem will you be able to be as confident as you are now.

Insha allah ( Allah willing ) this time will come for everyone, when we will be displayed in front of Allah almighty to be judged, so if you lived your life denying him and hateing and sinning, you will pay dearly at that day...lucky those who will pass the big judgement into eternal heaven.

When a 14 year old ends up in front of his creator after bombing a bus.....what do you think God will think behind his tears?

I cant think on God's behalf, but ask yourself what will you answer God when he will ask you how your own tax money went to fund terrorist nazi state such as Israel ??? God will ask you how your people supported those jewish killers....dont worry, you will have a very hard time indeed.

God didn't write your book...a man did... and I might add it was an awful long time ago.......maybe it needs a rewrite........

You see, here again, you are displaying amazing ignorance of Islam, the Noble Quran was NOT written by prophet Muhammad (pbuh ), prophet Muhammad (pbuh ) could not read or write, the Noble Quran was revealed to him from God by the angel Gabriel.

God forgives his children but he never forgets his sadness

Are you God's secretary to know what God will do ??????

Bush and libya is all about ending the killing......forgiving the past and moving forward....the world has never had an opportunity it has now......to solve it's problems...

Are you serious ??????? OH I SEE, IT IS THE SMELL OF THE OIL AGAIN, NEVER MIND HUMAN RIGHTS, DEMOCRASY AND FREEDOM !! :rolleyes:

The ironic thing is, if PM's beliefs were correct, he would go straight to hell.
That almost makes me wish they were more than fantasy.

The ironic thing is, if PM's beliefs were correct, he would go straight to hell.
That almost makes me wish they were more than fantasy.

Islam is a fantasy.... and a very dangerous one.

I've heard it said that the "Qu'ran is the book of the Devil", so PM is really worshipping the Devil who is disguised as the "Moon God"

PM sez:

NEVER MIND HUMAN RIGHTS, DEMOCRASY AND FREEDOM !!

Muslim hypocrisy at its finest!

you do know of course PM that judgement day doesn't happen at the end of your life.....it happens every single breath you take....every word you write and every action you desire.....with your heart full of so much hatred how can you ever find happiness?

btw PM please accept that the "you" in my posting is more towards Islam and not just you personally.

PM, I cano argue that the West is free of acting criminally ...for surely it has....I can't argue that the West has not Inadvertantly killed innocent persons.....for surely it has.....

But I can argue that for every mistake the West makes it is saddened....for every piece of collateral damage it is mortified......for every person killed a prayer is said......

War is a sad sad thing....the west is trying to learn a path to peace.....maybe it tries to hard.....

The USA hasn't devoted in excess of 240 billion dollars to just getting access to oil in Iraq. That 240 Billion dollars (plus) it has spent could buy an awfull lot of oil......probably more than all the oil researves in Iraq.

So if you are going to use the almighty dollar as an arguement do it properly.

Do you think the threat Saddam Hussein posed should have been ignored?

Do you think that holding the West as Hostage is a way to get a peace from the West?

Do you think the West has reacted badly to being held at tehh point of a gun?

Do you think that maybe you are getting only what you deserve?

What truth? About the abused women? I'm guessing alot of those abused women were abused by their muslim husband.

oh dont be stupid, there are 6 million Muslims livin in America take away the kids, the elderly and the single and you aint got anywhere near enough to be able to all of those abuses. also i doubt those rapes were commited by Musilms, and also alot of the beatings were due to drinking, drugs, divorces, broken homes, unwanted pregancies, adultery etc. and stuff which Muslims dont get usaulyy involved in. blaming Muslims is just stupid. :m:

oh dont be stupid, there are 6 million Muslims livin in America take away the kids, the elderly and the single and you aint got anywhere near enough
The population of America is around 280 million, and you say there are nearly 6 million muslims in america

Huh, so much for your Islam take over bid......!

:rolleyes:

PM
So you feel you are not being listened to....You feel that God's not listening.....you get angry because you feel the injustice so strongly......you blame everything but the one that deserves it......Your God...Ask your self .....if God is so wise and powerful why has he allowed all this shitty stuff to happen......what is he trying to teach you?

Maybe next time you pray to God ask him.....What is he trying to teach you?

Maybe he will say that he can not give you what you pray for......

The population of America is around 280 million, and you say there are nearly 6 million muslims in america

Huh, so much for your Islam take over bid......!

:rolleyes:

at the rate Islam is converting in the USA in 100 years 51% of America will be Muslim. enough for an Islamic state.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world
1) fastest conversion rates
2) highest birth rates
3) and highest fertility rates for women

look all of these up in the US census.

PM, I cano argue that the West is free of acting criminally ...for surely it has....I can't argue that the West has not Inadvertantly killed innocent persons.....for surely it has.....

But I can argue that for every mistake the West makes it is saddened....for every piece of collateral damage it is mortified......for every person killed a prayer is said......

War is a sad sad thing....the west is trying to learn a path to peace.....maybe it tries to hard.....

The USA hasn't devoted in excess of 240 billion dollars to just getting access to oil in Iraq. That 240 Billion dollars (plus) it has spent could buy an awfull lot of oil......probably more than all the oil researves in Iraq.

So if you are going to use the almighty dollar as an arguement do it properly.

Do you think the threat Saddam Hussein posed should have been ignored?

Do you think that holding the West as Hostage is a way to get a peace from the West?

Do you think the West has reacted badly to being held at tehh point of a gun?

Do you think that maybe you are getting only what you deserve?

About SADAM - are you forgeting who financially supported Sadam, morally supported Sadam, casued his power, casued his maintance of power, gave him arms, gave him plans for weapons of mass destruction. no doubt Sadam was a terrible guy but who out him there - why America of course!

America spent $350 Billion dollars plus on the Iraq war now $350 Billion dollars is more than loads of countries even have! with $350 billion dollars the possibiltes are endless, America could of easily thought of some non vilent way to topple Sadam without wars, which inturn kills 8,500 Iraqi suvilians,500 american troops and 13,000 Iraqi soldiers, suicide bombings in Iraq against America and the Madrid bombings and wouldn't of required involemnt from all of these oter countires like Britain and Spain which are now terrorst targets becasue of this.

this "US axis od evil" was started off by america

at the rate Islam is converting in the USA in 100 years 51% of America will be Muslim. enough for an Islamic state.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world
1) fastest conversion rates
2) highest birth rates
3) and highest fertility rates for women

look all of these up in the US census.
Give us a break and change the record.

You spew the same crap as your other little muslim buddies do.

Next you'll be telling us all that allah is real. :rolleyes:

munim....786....a simple question.....
Why so you think The USA has and is Investing in Iraq what is it now 350+Billion Dollars?

Why are they spending the money?

I agree it could have been better spent and that the USA has made a grave mistake but what do you think is the reason or motive behind spending that kind of money?

BTW we both know that the USA could pull out now from Iraq and cut it's losses....what motivates them in continuing their presence there do you think?

To save face is not good enough as an answer.......350 Billion dollars just to save face would be even more absurd.....an answer than the one you would like to give

Quack, the US are putting something in, to get more out. Don't be decieved that they are doing this for the good of Iraqui people.

PM, I cano argue that the West is free of acting criminally ...for surely it has....I can't argue that the West has not Inadvertantly killed innocent persons.....for surely it has.....

But I can argue that for every mistake the West makes it is saddened....for every piece of collateral damage it is mortified......for every person killed a prayer is said......

That is not true, I did see memorials for the victims of 9/11 and Madrid bombings but I did NOT see memorials for the palestinean victims of Israel barbaric terror, I did not see memorials for the IRAQI MUSLIMS who were killed by your terrorism !!!

War is a sad sad thing....the west is trying to learn a path to peace.....maybe it tries to hard.....

This is NOT war, it is western aggression and terrorism which need to be crushed.

The USA hasn't devoted in excess of 240 billion dollars to just getting access to oil in Iraq. That 240 Billion dollars (plus) it has spent could buy an awfull lot of oil......probably more than all the oil researves in Iraq.

I think you are not getting it right, the money you spent in Iraq is long term investment, the oil in iraq will last 30 years ( far more what you spent now ).

So if you are going to use the almighty dollar as an arguement do it properly.

Or maybe you should ask Halliburton for some advice !! :rolleyes:

Do you think the threat Saddam Hussein posed should have been ignored?

What threat ?? do you believe the BULLSHIT Bush and his neo cons are telling you ??? nearly 1 years has passed and there is NO WMD ??? where the hell are they ???? I know where they are, in Israel, go and disarm this terrorist state, it is the REAL THREAT TO WORLD PEACE as 60% of Europeans said in the latest poll.

Do you think that holding the West as Hostage is a way to get a peace from the West?

I dont understand how broken country such as Iraq after 13 years of sanctions can hold any country a hostage ???

But hey, dont worry, the west will pay in BLOOD for the Muslim blood let on the muslim land of Iraq ,Afghanistan and PALESTINE.

Do you think the West has reacted badly to being held at tehh point of a gun?

Oh please, get serious ! dont parrot the far right christian fanatics bullshit.

Do you think that maybe you are getting only what you deserve?

Or maybe you are getting what you deserve: :rolleyes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/in_depth/americas/2001/day_of_terror/in_pictures/2.jpg

PM...you really don't get it do you?
If you look at your last post and the threats you have made you have to admit that you are in no position to lead any one or inform anyone or inspire any one....you come across as a raving lunatic that needs to be sedated and locked away.....

Your jsut another example of islamic insanity and how can you possibly expect any credibility now.....I thought you had integrity I am obviously mistaken.......

Crazy Mikey.....I woudl like to know what yo think teh USA is going to get for it's 350 billion+ investment.....tell me why it's a good investment?

PM, do you actually have anything to discuss, or are you just going to insult people and tell them they should be dead?

And actually Wicca is currently the fastest growing religion, and at it's current pass will be the largest in america. The math and assumptions behind that is bogus though, as is the prediction of 51% being muslim.

Q, You have been at the forum for a long time now. Has PM always been this.....crazy?

Persol What do you really think about PM's behaviour? Do you think he is a good example of the average Muslem person?

The Muslem persons I know personally here woudl never dream of posting the content of the last post....

They know that sept 11 has actually sounded the end for Islam.

I know of no muslims as fanatical as PM. His posts are disgustingly one sided and he doesn't seem to be able to hide his desire to kill all westerners.

I just found it interesting that he started this thread about Modesty and espouses integrity.....yet he obviously doesn't believe in his own writings.

Does his threads always deteriorate this way?

I'm sure he would spare us if we were willing to convert to "the one true religion". But I'd choose death over being forced to pretend to believe in ancient superstitious fairy tails

Persol What do you really think about PM's behaviour?

Do you think he is a good example of the average Muslem person?



Quantum, I know you have specifically asked this question to Persol, but can I give you my answer.

I am a white British person who lives in a neighbourhood of mainly asian muslim, and their behaviour is no different to Proud Muslims. They are arrogant, ignorant, they hate the white English and dislike this country and America. God knows why they live here, yet they do.

Oh, and I remember watching these people laughing and cheering on 9/11, my hate for Islam was confirmed on that day.

Repo man,

The idea of converting to a state of hatred and anti - progress and self loathing to me is not one I would ever take up.....How do you think he expects to convert people at all?....I would think his words are doing the exact opposite...that is he is repelling people. ( actually he is doing the West a favour)

Repo man,

The idea of converting to a state of hatred and anti - progress and self loathing to me is not one I would ever take up.....How do you think he expects to convert people at all?....I would think his words are doing the exact opposite...that is he is repelling people. ( actually he is doing the West a favour)

PM is a typical muslim, and I agree that he is doing us all a favour by showing us his example.

Furthermore terrorism is repelling and creating hatred towards Islam, the world is turning against Islam a little further after each terrorist act is committed.

Islam is committing suicide - and the sooner Islam is dead - the better for world peace.

PM...you want to know something Mate......Your the best weapon against Islam the West has got.....keep up the good work!!

Vienna, you are so right.....every time I see a woman wearing a head scarf I see servitude and an act of belonging to nothing more than a religious cult.
I see an advertisment that tells me that Islam will fail ...it is inevitable

Extract taken from www.islamonline

Contrary to popular belief, the struggle for universal human rights is not a modern one. Although some claim that the idea of human rights is a Western concept or ideology, Islam was the first institution to advocate and implement such human rights as universal equality and women’s rights. In fact, Islam promoted the universality of the human experience over 1300 years before the United Nations declared it to exist.

Human rights in Islam have been granted by Allah (God), and no individual or legislative assembly has the right to amend, change, or withdraw them. Every Muslim or administrator who claims to be Muslim must accept, recognize and enforce these rights. All those temporal authorities who claim to be Muslims yet violate the rights sanctioned by Allah are either disbelievers or wrong-doers.

Islam grants certain basic human rights to all people, Muslims and non-Muslims, and regardless of their race, nationality, ethnic origin or language. The first of these rights is the right to live and respect human life. Only a proper and competent court of law can decide to take a life in retaliation for murder or for punishment for spreading corruption on the earth. Only a properly established government can decide to wage war. No human being has the right by himself to take a human life for retaliation or for causing mischief on the earth.
Every human has the right to the safety of life. This means that if someone is ill, wounded, starving, or drowning, et cetera, he has the right to be saved.

Islam recognizes absolute equality between people

Islam grants every woman the right to have her chastity respected and guarded under all circumstances. Even in war, a woman who is of the enemy nation cannot be violated. All promiscuous relationships are forbidden to a Muslim, irrespective of the status or position of the woman, and whether or not she is a willing partner to the act.

All people have the right to a basic standard of life. Anyone who is suffering from deprivation has a right in the property and wealth of the Muslims.

Islam grants the individual the right to freedom. It is categorically forbidden to capture a free person and make him a slave or sell him into slavery.

Islam recognizes absolute equality between people. There is no superiority of Arab over non-Arab, white over black, or vice-versa. All people are descended from Adam and are as brothers and sisters.

Islam prescribes the general principle of the right to cooperate and not to co operate. Any person who undertakes a noble and righteous work has the right to expect the Muslims to cooperate with him or support him. The one who perpetrates vice and aggression does not have the right to the Muslims’ support and cooperation.
These are general human rights that Islam gives to all. There are other rights set down by Islam dealing with issues such as the rights of citizens in an Islamic state and the rights of enemies during times of war


I took this extraction from one of the websites offered by PM......It is incredible how Islamic practice is so full of contradictions. According to the above the last post by PM ( the one with his threats ) would send him to an islamic prison. Certainly he has betrayed his faith......

What do you think?

Extract taken from www.islamonline




I took this extraction from one of the websites offered by PM......It is incredible how Islamic practice is so full of contradictions. According to the above the last post by PM ( the one with his threats ) would send him to an islamic prison. Certainly he has betrayed his faith......

What do you think?
I think that PM's comments are much closer to the truth than the propagandist extraction offered by PM.

He contradicts himself often, but he reveals the true Islam.