Every intelligent music fan's favorite villain is Eminem. We all hate him and we all use him as a scapegoat. With that in mind, I'd like to hear why everyone hates him. What is it that you dislike about him? What do you favorite artists do better? This is for a paper I'm writing for my music appreciation class about playing different musical styles off of eachother.

....By the way, just out of curiousity, for fans of underground hip-hop, what do you think separates Eminem from, say, Aesop Rock, or Slug, or Phoenix Orion, etc.? (One would think that this is a tougher question to answer than it would be for classic rock purists, for example). Be specific.

Ari

I, personally, like him. But all of my friends laugh at me for that :(

To start, he is not my favorite villian. But i dislike him because he is homophobe and misogynist.

:m: Peace.

I think he's only good when he's being a homophobe and a misogynist.
Because yes that what he is, so its better when he's being real.
His pop songs are tacky.

I've never listened to his "music" before, is he somethiong that I should care to listen to? I've heard things about him but don't pay much attention to those rumors.

Character wise, nothing I want to become.


Lyrically wise, Nas is better. So is common, Scarface, Atmosphere, Common, Dilated People's and a host of..

Nas is not better lyrically wise, give me a break.
Dilated peoples are good, but really if we are being honest eminem is phenomenal lyrically.
Some have matched him, maybe even exceeded him in like one or two of their verses. But he's consistently very solid (when he's not blatantly selling out making music for 12 year old girls).

Nas is truely fucking overrated. He just has a friendly message that is oh so attractive to this overly soft-cocked generation. Whether you like his message or not is up to you, but he is definately nothing special lyrically at all.

RZA was the best, don't know what the fuck happened to him but early to mid 90's- RZA is better than anyone there is or has been.

Gotta side with the doc. Eminem is one of the few people still using actual words and sentances in lyrics and not just stringing sounds together.

A lot of new rap just sounds like be-bop with words.

Lou:
Nas is not better lyrically wise, give me a break.
Dilated peoples are good, but really if we are being honest eminem is phenomenal lyrically.
This is quite silly and shows that you obviously do not listen to a lot of rap. In what sense is Nas not better than Eminem lyrically? The shame in the surge of new audiences to hiphop is that they are fed diluted nonsense that do you show the raw passion of rap: nonsense about the chicks they fuck or the gold they flaunt. This is not fundamnetal hiphop. Listen to It was written and illmatic and come back again, and then perhaps we can discuss.

Some have matched him, maybe even exceeded him in like one or two of their verses. But he's consistently very solid (when he's not blatantly selling out making music for 12 year old girls).
Are you brain dead? This is like someone reading a chapter of Nietzche and then claiming him the greatest philosoper of all time because all hes heard about Confuscius, Gandhi, Goethe, Kant, etc etc are mere sentences. You are pissing me the fuck off. Ever heard of a guy named 2Pac? How about Biggie? Common perhaps? Or you want more underground shit? What the fuck.

Nas is truely fucking overrated. He just has a friendly message that is oh so attractive to this overly soft-cocked generation. Whether you like his message or not is up to you, but he is definately nothing special lyrically at all.
Huh? This makes no bloody sense.

RZA was the best, don't know what the fuck happened to him but early to mid 90's- RZA is better than anyone there is or has been.
RZA was always merely a bloody producer. Shut the fuck up. I'm disappointed in you.


To the initial:

I do not hate Eminem. I like his music, especially on the Marshall Matter LP. What I hate however is the Elvis syndrome he is inevitably brought to hiphop: a generation of fans who have no bloody clue about other hiphop artists and won't bother because they are BLACK or TOO BLACK. How many fucking times must the artist tell his fans that he is not the best rap artist ever, and that they must stop making him the fucking new Elvis?

Okay, seems I got a bit of a different reaction than I expected. Let me hit you with another question then...

How does Eminem stack up against the underground emcees like Aesop Rock, or Slug, etc.?

Also, do you think music has changed for the better since classic rock ruled the music world? How about going back a little further, even. From jazz ("old black music") to rap ("new black music") has music gotten better or worse?

Does mainstream rap's commercialist sellout bother anyone?

Consider these questions. Let's see what you come up with...

Ever heard of a guy named 2Pac? How about Biggie
haha Typical.
Maybe you ARE a 12 year old girl? :bugeye:

RZA was always merely a bloody producer.
No he was also a producer, which just adds to how brilliant he was.
Nas could never create an atmosphere with his words like RZA. You talk about bling bling and shit, nas is a part of that, he just also occassionally says 'lets all hold hands and be friends' as well. Thats not enough for him to not be lumped with that shit.
When he starts talking about chewing his fucking arm off or tempting his audience to commit suicide (or something on that level) I'll listen. While he's preaching love and tolerance he is my enemy, plus he just doesn't sound that good.

gitarman:
Every intelligent music fan's favorite villain is Eminem. We all hate him and we all use him as a scapegoat.

I can't say I like or dislike him - what I've heard of his is decent, but I don't like hip hop.

This is for a paper I'm writing for my music appreciation class about playing different musical styles off of eachother.

But it's hardly his style that is hated, as what he represents.
Any popular "music entertainer" is going to be ragged on simply because they represent something. We mock Avril Lavinge for her pretentiousness, Ricky Martin for his lack of talent, Eminem -

Why? Because he is a wigger? But the sort of racial crossover he attempts is held as laudable.
Because his lyrics are violent, misogynistic? But most of what is produced for popular consumption is misogynistic, and a good deal is violent.

What does Eminem do, to make himself hated? Nothing in particular. I should say part of his function is to be hated.

Also, do you think music has changed for the better since classic rock ruled the music world? How about going back a little further, even. From jazz ("old black music") to rap ("new black music") has music gotten better or worse?

I don't think you could compare something as highly complex in tonal structures as jazz to something as basic as rap. That the two are traditionally black has nothing to do with it.

Has music changed for the better? In terms of so-called "pop", it has degenerated "fo' shore!", in terms of overall quality it is superiour to the time of classic rock.

Degeneration - I cannot think of any ninties-millenium band equivalent to the Beatles, Led Zeppelin or the 'Stones. Granted, I'm covering some three decades with these three, but when one lists the popular bands of the late fifties to mid eighties and compares them with contemporary bands, one cannot help but feel that music has slipped not only in intelligence but in quality.

Perhaps things will change.

Overall quality - what we do have is a wider range of styles, and many truely brilliant bands in their respective undergrounds. Styles such as metal (death, black and thrash), industrial and electronic (ambient, trance and electronica) have produced incredible peices of music.

It would seem that as pop-culture stagnates, underground music flourishes.
On the other hand, should a underground genre become popular, it quickly loses its virility and becomes simply another flavor of pop-music.

I like Eminem. I saw him live last year and he puts on a good show (I think--I was a bit pished).
Musically, I think his stuff is hilarious.
People who take offense at his lyrics obviously dont get the joke.
He's no homophobe: Elton John even said as much on tv not long ago. He also said Eminem is a very polite young man.
But then he probably wants to back-scuttle him!

The Flemster.

Eminem is really good and if ya'll haven't ever listened to any of his stuff, I highly reccomend you do. His lyrics blow me away and he is on par with the best of rappers. I have no clue who those underground people are you mentioned though, and I would be awfully surprised if one out of twenty people reading your post knew who they were.

But for whoever is reading this and considers themselves to be an avid music fan really should check out his stuff, especially his second album (The Marshall Mathers LP). He's only been in the mainstream for about six years and already two of his albums are on Rolling Stones 500 greatest albums of all times list.

I know some people who know all about good music, people who constantly just sit in a room and listen to music for fun without doing anything else and also play instruments. Guess what. They think Eminem is phenomenal!

He's a horrible influence on teenagers who don't know how to draw lines, but it can't be denied how great of a musician he is.

The only people that hate him are the people that buy into his schtick. Hating a particular artist or genre is absolutely retarded. I prefer to not listen to the stuff shoved on us by the ol' corporate radio, but why would I hate it? I know people that, when asked what kind of music they like, will tell you specifically that they HATE 'rap', or 'country', or whatever. These people never understood or appreciated music in the first place so they fill the void with an anti-stance. Its like someone asking "what do you think about life" and the answer being "well, there certainly isn't a god".

>>But it's hardly his style that is hated, as what he represents.
Any popular "music entertainer" is going to be ragged on simply because they represent something. We mock Avril Lavinge for her pretentiousness, Ricky Martin for his lack of talent, Eminem -

>>Why? Because he is a wigger? But the sort of racial crossover he attempts is held as laudable.
>>Because his lyrics are violent, misogynistic? But most of what is produced for popular consumption is misogynistic, and a good deal is violent.

>>What does Eminem do, to make himself hated? Nothing in particular. I should say part of his function is to be hated.

I'm staying clear of personal opinion here, but I will present an argument I've heard before in order to respond.
Eminem is disliked in general for his violent, and misogynistic lyrics, true. It is unfair to say that because there is a degree of violence present in all pop culture anyway, Eminem is excused. First of all, Eminem takes violence to a whole new level (killing his mom, raping his sister, etc.). Second of all, you have to define which pop culture you are referring to. Today's pop culture? Pop culture in the 70's? Pop culture in the 20's? Your claim would not hold true as you go further and further back. No one in the 60's was advocating rape, murder, anti-semitism, and whatnot (the drug culture of the 60's is another discussion entirely because that involves a discussion of the degenerating American work ethic...but...not for now.).

Another reason that musicians specifically dislike Eminem is because he is not skilled in the musical sense. He doesn't play anything, he doesn't even craft his own artificial music, and the background noises (for argument's sake, I'm not going to call it music) in his songs are so simplistic, it could put you to sleep.


>>I don't think you could compare something as highly complex in tonal structures as jazz to something as basic as rap. That the two are traditionally black has nothing to do with it.

I think you are making an important point. How could jazz and rap be compared? Seemingly they can't, because one requires musical skill, and the other requires, not lyrical "talent" per sè, but more of a lyrical cleverness. However, I think it is important for musical progress to make this comparison. Do we simply write rap off as too simple to be considered music, and therefore just something loathfully attractive to the masses, that should be left alone by real music fans? Or do we say that jazz is over and now clever limericks over African based organic beats are the future of music. Or do we say that both are valid forms of music and we should appreciate both? Personally I think the last argument is harder to make because the two styles are so antithetical that they cannot live together.


>> in terms of overall quality it is superiour to the time of classic rock.

>>one cannot help but feel that music has slipped not only in intelligence but in quality.


I'm not sure, exactly, how you can reconcile these two statements...


>>Overall quality - what we do have is a wider range of styles, and many truely brilliant bands in their respective undergrounds. Styles such as metal (death, black and thrash), industrial and electronic (ambient, trance and electronica) have produced incredible peices of music.

I think you have to question whether "more" is, indeed, better. I'm not sure if the term "truly brilliant" could be applied to some of the styles you put down (sorry for interjecting my personal opinion there, but I couldn't help it). Musical purists will tell you that music requires a certain degree of, if not complexity, then at least skill and taste. Machines should be used to augment sounds, and series of sounds, not replace them with digitized arrangements. Fans of the classical composers will tell you that the fact that music has decayed into trance, and death/black/thrash metal (which is currently employed in certain contemporary torture techniques), is symbolic of the dumbing down of the youth on an international scale. Fans of doo wop will tell you that the lack of vocal talent (combined with the vulgarity of modern lyrics) is the problem. Classic rock fans (of the more folk rock variety) will tell you that musical ability is no longer appreciated, and real poetry has died, in favor of clever limericks that are just a poor excuse for the lyrical greats the likes of Dylan, Springsteen, and Jethro Tull. Classic rock fans (of the harder variety - i.e. Clapton, Zeppelin, Deep Purple, etc.) will use the musical ability argument, but only 10 times more so than the folk rockers, and will argue that all the energy has been sucked out of stage performance. Jazz and Big Band fans will use a hybrid of the rock, and doo wop arguments...
I could go on and on, but the point is, I think that it is very hard to argue that the overall quality of music today has definitely improved. I think that betrays a very poor knowledge of music history.


>>It would seem that as pop-culture stagnates, underground music flourishes.
On the other hand, should a underground genre become popular, it quickly loses its virility and becomes simply another flavor of pop-music.

I think that "underground" has mistakenly become synonymous with "quality." Let's not get too carried away here...

Ari

Also, do you think music has changed for the better since classic rock ruled the music world? How about going back a little further, even. From jazz ("old black music") to rap ("new black music") has music gotten better or worse?

Classic rock (American and British) is much better than what we have now. But the circumstances were different then.
Jazz always gave me a headache, and so does rap. Disgusting. Eminem is really the only one that is worth my ears.

I'm not a big Eminem fan, but the movie 8 Mile was really good. If only everyone used rap-battles to settle disputes... I guess that's what some people do on sci-forums, without the rhymes.

>>Jazz always gave me a headache
>>and so does rap

For what reason? I find it hard to believe that you can put jazz and rap in the same category. One is lyrically based over simplistic, organic, African drum n' bass beats. The other is rooted in African culture, European classical music, combined with improvisational buildoffs of complex arrangements (with a whole section of music theory devoted to it, not to mention). Perhaps you can elaborate.

>>Eminem is really the only one that is worth my ears.

Perhaps you can tell me what it is that attracts you to Eminem over everyone else.


With regard to the other post...

>>If only everyone used rap-battles to settle disputes

In other words, if only everyone could be insipid peons with no intelligent opinions. If only all classic rhetoric and debate were stamped out in favor of mind-numbing limerick contests. Cummon, gimme a break...

I find it hard to believe that you can put jazz and rap in the same category.

Oh no, jazz and rap are two completely different things! In jazz, I guess, it is the combination of instruments used and improvisation that... just... hurts my head! From old jazz to new jazz, I can't stand it. But I do like all kinds of classical music, from very old to very new. In rap, hip hop, and whatever else of similar nature, it is the combination of drum beat with manner of singing and pronouncing words that makes me feel sick. I don't find Rage Against the Machine entirely pleasant either.

Eminem is different from the rest somehow. What comes out in his albums is somehow not offensive to my ear. I like him for what he is and where he came from. Violence in his lyrics is somehow pleasing and attracting. Besides, he's cute. It's really about the combination of things.

In other words, if only everyone could be insipid peons with no intelligent opinions. If only all classic rhetoric and debate were stamped out in favor of mind-numbing limerick contests. Cummon, gimme a break...

No, intelligent discussion is paramount, but often here that degenerates into pseudo-intellectual insult. At least rap battles acknowledge that the point is creative insult as an alternative to violence.

I'd recommend y'all download the songs "Infinte" or "Tonite," from his first album. His new stuff isn't bad, but I think Infinte is just a much better showcase for his ability.

The only rap I thoroughly enjoy is Eminem. I like his beats. I like that fact that, as someone mentioned earlier, that he uses actual phrases instead of using forced rhymes. Even though his lyrics are not very complicated, he talks about his opinions, hardships and he has some deeper songs, like the one featured at the end of 8 mile (I forget the name). He has evolved as an artist. We all know he is white, and I feel like I can relate to him more instead of these ghetto guys who have the "ghetto black way of thinking". Eminem probably thinks the same, but I still feel that I have more of a relation to his ways because I know people like him whereas I can not relate to Sean Paul or 50 Cent. I always have said that I hate rap music. Eminem is an exception.

Yeah, I also have to add I know people like him. That makes me like him more.

Eminem doesn't used forced rhymes? What about "Everybody just wants to discuss me, so this must mean I'm disgusting" ... a great line, but completely forced. If you want to hear actual phraes, get "Ebonics" by Big L.

lOU:

Two Random joints from Nas. BASK IN THE FUCKING SKILL. For more, go here:http://www.azlyrics.com/n/nas.html

"Fetus"

Yeah
I want all my niggas to come journey with me
My name is Nas, and the year is 1973
Beginning of me, therefore I could see
Through my belly button window who I am...

I existed in a womb, just like an abyss
Came straight from spirit land, my hands balled in a fist
Punching on my moms stomach, kicking on her cervix
Twitching cause I'm nervous
Thought my intended purpose
Was to be born to reign, not in scorn or vain
But to take on a name, my pops chose for me
Bloodstream full of indo
Developing eyes looking out my belly button window
My father's face wears a frown
And I'm wondering if they even want me around
Cause I'll go back to spirit town
So I could rest longer before I come back down
The chute again, in the near future when
My moms and pops can agree on this
Was here before but my moms saw her gynocologist
He dumped me off, first they want me then turn around and they dont
You got a 120 days do what you want
But as for me coming back this be my last time
Abort me, keep me, give me away, make up ya mind

[Nas]
I shot my way out my mom dukes

I shot my way out my mom dukes

They must wanna keep me, cause 4 months past and I'm still alive
Guess I got what you call an ill-will to survive
When I look hard the lights is killing my eyes
I know when moms is laying down cause I get bored and start to get live
Move side to side hear loud music and vibe
All black babies are born with rhythm thats no lie
Solar energize, mineralize food through my mothers tube
I'm covered in this thick layer of goo
Month two was the least most comfortable
My umbilical cord choking me
But month 3 was closer, see
Thats when pops took moms to see the doc at the clinic
But I was saved cause he changed his mind in the last minute
Watching 'em yell, heard my moms voice well
Feared fist fights, so terrified when we fell
While they broke up furniture and smashed plates on the wall
I wondered if I am born will I be safe at all
This place they call the world though my view was so large
Couldn't wait to get up, grow up and take charge
Month 5, Month 6 went by, hoping I'm born in July
But the Lord already figured out a date and time
Septemeber 14th, 73
Get ready world, doctors in the front waiting for me
Arms open cause they know when I drop, alot of shit's gonna stop
See how the goverment will start re-training cops
Month 9, I'm a week over due, the labor induced
Pops told my moms to push and take deep breaths too
Said stay calm, holding her arm, I'm trying to hold on
Surgical gloves touching my scalp, my head pops out
Everything blurry, my first breath screams out
Tears pouring down my pops face he's so proud
Wanted to hold me, but I was so bloody
They washed me off and he said "At least that nigga aint ugly!"
Placed me in his arms snuggly, laid me on my mother
Finally, I got to see who held me in her body
She loved me,and I plan to over through the devil
Y'all bout to see this world in trouble
Motherfuckers...




nEXT ONE:

Book Of Rhymes by Nas

Alchemist you know me man
I'm the type of nigga that write rhymes right on the spot in the studio
soon as I hear the track; you know what I'm sayin?
Word but I wanted to bring a couple of books to the studio today
Man I foundthese shits up in the crib man in boxes man
I don't even remember when I was writing these shits
or what's in these shits man probably a bunch of bullshit man
Fuck it check it

How can I trust you when I can't trust me?
Picture myself a old man a O.G.
Some niggas will conversate with liers all day
Time pass...(Nah lemme start somethin' else)
Soul on ice death threats given by clowns
I guess livin' is prison when you live around clowns
I'm hexed cursed worse I been blessed first
I thought I was abnormal cause I would overcome any tasked called to
So there it is I'ma prince I'ma get slain
Some do minor shit swear they on the top of they game
Ya rhymin' is called "Vagina Monologue"
It kinda supports theories of scary niggas who should lie in the morgue
Rarely y'all come in contact with the real
Since Pun passed he was the last shine of sun I could feel
Yo said there's a few left since music's expressions of life
Damn I wish I took more time to write in my book of rhymes

Oh shit Tina - I been lookin' for this bitch number damn.
No this rhyme is weak..
This is week I remember this bullshit right here
(My Book of Rhymes)
Gandhi was a... what the fu..?

Gandhi was a fool, nigga fight to the death
The US Army is a school that teach ya plights of conquest
(I wonder when I wrote this. Nah it's weak)
The money's ya religion sky the limit live life
Numbers is big business makes the poor live trife
The glimmers of hope provoke those without dollars to dream
Through your existence become wealthy knowledge is king
Pimps and card sharks thiefs murderers with hard luck
Addicts and fiends prostitutes passin' for teens is my society
Cops that shoot blacks is routine for noteriety
Grow up watchin' well dressed niggas with charms
Beautiful ladies on their arms
Dangerous new cars was my fantasy for Nas
Rubbin my lips with Campophenique
Still behind the ears wet turned out to be
Pioneers vets amongst hustlers crack sellers and liers and squares...
(Nah that was weak there)
My people be projects or jail never Harvard or Yale
Pardon me type in my 2way while I'm chargin' my cell
It's hard to be iced up with Gucci god poverty's real
I can't fight you cause you would sue me niggas be groupies
I see imitators tryin' to make albums spittin' my style
And they don't even realize that I notice they stealing Nas' shit
I pump some Rick James with that Teena Marie
My nina lean on me like Swoop it's crap this can't be
My book of rhymes

This can't be my book of rhymes writing this bullshit!
(My Book of Rhymes)
Nah neva that fuck that, aw why you laughin' Alchemist?
Huh you a funny nigga... naw yeah
(My Book of Rhymes)
I'm tellin' you I'ma come up with some new shit now
Fuck that I'ma write again now fuck that
I musta been high on some shit mmm what the fuck is this?

Look how we treat pregnancy women in the 'hood
Our values so low our values are no good
Things our mothers told us we shoulda heeded
Cause now we need it
We older almost able t...
I'm jealous of you how come you so beautiful?
Smelling fresh youthful intelligent while I'm stressin' and shit
Aiyo I envy you 'cause all you do is smile and things come your way
Such a innocent child is what some say
I get upset 'cause I just want to be treated the way you are
Like a star not a worry in this world thus far
But wait a minute we both need ya mother's attention
I must be crazy jealous of my own baby infant
(Kinda crazy)

I've liked a couple of his songs, but most of it is filler with nonsense lyrics.

"Eminem doesn't used forced rhymes? What about "Everybody just wants to discuss me, so this must mean I'm disgusting" ... a great line, but completely forced. If you want to hear actual phraes, get "Ebonics" by Big L."

yeah, thats a rather smart line by eminem, it outsmarted you starofeight

starofeight, why do you assume that in order to rhyme, it has to be the last sylable of the lines that rhyme

disCUS me
disGUSting

cus rhymes with gus, get it now???


here is a forced rhyme

"Things our mothers told us we shoulda heeded
Cause now we need it"
heeded doesnt rhyme with need it

eminem is angry at almost everybody, and uses his daughter hailey as a weapon against his mother and wife, but his music is still good, his sentances all make sense, he doesnt make up words, i want to go to a live show of his, hes a good performer.

haha Typical.
Maybe you ARE a 12 year old girl? :bugeye:


No he was also a producer, which just adds to how brilliant he was.
Nas could never create an atmosphere with his words like RZA. You talk about bling bling and shit, nas is a part of that, he just also occassionally says 'lets all hold hands and be friends' as well. Thats not enough for him to not be lumped with that shit.
When he starts talking about chewing his fucking arm off or tempting his audience to commit suicide (or something on that level) I'll listen. While he's preaching love and tolerance he is my enemy, plus he just doesn't sound that good.

You obviously have only listened to a "select" compilation of his works before coming to your conclusion. Take a listen to Illmatic. I have a lotta RZA albums and a lotta Nas albums. True, he flopped with the 'Escobar' thing but hopefully we'll see some change after his mother's passing away.

Eminem doesn't used forced rhymes? What about "Everybody just wants to discuss me, so this must mean I'm disgusting" ... a great line, but completely forced. If you want to hear actual phraes, get "Ebonics" by Big L.

Ever heard Freestyle '98?


Looking for his albums but sadly can't find em in shops. He's missed, despite talking about some pretty HARDCORE stuff in his rhymes, which really set him apart from the B.I.G. era.

Okay, seems I got a bit of a different reaction than I expected. Let me hit you with another question then...

How does Eminem stack up against the underground emcees like Aesop Rock, or Slug, etc.?

You can't compare Eminem with Aesop Rock or Slug, Aesop Rock and Slug are sick lyrcists with sick messages, and also write [/i]topicals[/i]. Eminem is a product of the mainstream engulf, and sends no messages or can write good lyrics.

Send me one bar, one bar of Eminem's that has any impressive wordplay, original punches, metaphors, similies, or creativity. There are none.

- Also, mainstream rap commercialist sell outs do bother me.. Like Nelly.. Makes a whole rap song about a certain type of shoe and it becomes that popular?? It's scary to see people just listening to music, subconxiously being brainwashed...

Sorry, I don't listen to him or his "style" of "music". So I can't hate something I never have heard but dislike rap the upmost.

I don´t like rap/hip hop, therefore my knowledge of rap music is somewhat small. I only listen to Eminem songs when they are played on MTV or when a friend listens to one of his records. I have to say, Eminem is one of the few rap artists I can stand listening too. I think his songs/videos are quite funny and entertaining, besides he seems to put a lot of meaning in his songs.

"Send me one bar, one bar of Eminem's that has any impressive wordplay, original punches, metaphors, similies, or creativity. There are none."

"it's like a fuckin' army marchin' in back of me" - Eminem. Theres a similie
"its like this rope, waitin'
to choke, tightening around my throat" - Eminem. Theres another

"the ringleader of this circus of worthless pawns" Metaphor

im not even gonan bother arguing about whether hes creative or not, thats all in the eye of the beholder anyway. but the point is i proved you wrong three times and i only used lines from 1 song (White America)

About the forced hrymes bit, he does use SOEM forced rhymes, but his songs are not based on them. A lot fo popular rappers use a lot of forced lyrics to go with the beat, it drives me mad.

It's sad to see every intelligent(?) musician having Eminem as villain, when there are many others. Eminem sing about his life, and he's making money on that - It's brilliant. rNb, hiphop, pop, and that stuffs... That's what i see as villians. Their lyrics are very boring and repetive, when there are greater musicians who sings about Philosophy, science, religion, suffering and more like Jethro tull, Iron maiden, Wishbone ash and my band ofcourse ;)

"Send me one bar, one bar of Eminem's that has any impressive wordplay, original punches, metaphors, similies, or creativity. There are none."

"it's like a fuckin' army marchin' in back of me" - Eminem. Theres a similie

Do you know what a similie is? By the way, I said Impressive.

Alain, you missed the point. When I said the rhyme was forced, I meant that it didn't sound natural ... maybe it's his nasally voice, maybe it's the fact he sung it in a kinda sing-song squeal ... whatever. My point is, it's a great line, but it just doesn't flow.

I dont know Alain.... I recall Joey asking for something "impressive." All you gave him was some meaningless, out of context, profanity laden, crap.

Overall, I don't think that you can compare Eminem with any Def-Jux emcee when it comes to content. The Def-Jux crowd is simply much more articulate and intelligent. In terms of rhyming ability (rhyme scheme, rhyme construction, freestyling abilities), I can't honestly say that I have enough experience with either of them to judge. (Although I wouldn't be too concerned with freestyling, that stuff really doesn't impress me at all anyhow)... Musically, I also find it hard to believe that Eminem can be put in the same category as any Def-Jux emcees (while at the same time, Def-Jux emcees can't be compared to anybody in the classical, jazz, and classic rock camps). Eminem's music is very clichèd and boring with nothing to really stimulate the mind. He DOES throw in ridiculously loud bass drum beats but I can't really say that's a good thing... Def-Jux emcees on the other hand employ tight organic beats with wicked original basslines as well as digging up very surprising sound bits to keep the listener on his toes. Just listen to I'll Be Okay, or Oxygen (both by Aesop Rock).

In general I think that Eminem's appeal is mainly due to his mass commercialization and extremely transparent rebbelliousness that is oh so loathfully attractive to throngs of brainless youth that are simply products of TRL and MTV (...whether they know it or not). If we want to progress musically, we have to move beyong this guy.

No you didnt Joey! you didnt ask for something impressive

"Send me one bar, one bar of Eminem's that has any impressive wordplay, original punches, metaphors, similies, or creativity."
being as you said or, instead of and i only had to find 1 of those things to prove you wrong, and i found 3. If you really want, ill find something impressive in his songs, wait a minute

found one, stan - by eminem and dido, im not gonna post lyrics, cos id have to post the whole thing, when you listen to the song its impressive, anyway, below is the lyrics for it

http://www.geocities.com/bashlak/eminem/3-3.shtml.htm

that song actually makes you feel emotions, unlike pop crap

Ohhh boy. Don't even get me started on "Stan." That song represents to me the further debasement of our already plasticized society as well as the perversion of music as an art form. The song uses profanity quite liberally for starters (that's a minor issue compared with the rest of my beef). Second of all, the point of the song is that we shouldn't neccesarily listen to what "musicians," or artists in general, say because they're usually insincere, and don't mean to be taken seriously. This to me is the ultimate slap in the face to art. The point of music is that it is a medium of expression. If it allowed to become full of insincerity, then all it would be is simply a way to stay in the fickle lens of the almight pop culture monster. All it would be is a means to obtaining excess money, cars, girls, and a (usually falsified, or exaggerated) ghetto reputation. This completely destroys music as it has been for centuries. Imagine Beethoven, Mozart, or Wagner slacking off and producing cheap, ugly, and vulgar excuses for symphonies in order to more easily get women. How obscene. Imagine if Wes Montgomery, Django Reinhardt, or Louis Armstrong decided to screw originality and musical prowess and produce cheap throwaway whore music that would be attractive to unintelligent and uninformed 12 yr. old girls, so as to make a bigger buck.

By the way, with regard to this: >> No you didnt Joey! you didnt ask for something impressive

>>"Send me one bar, one bar of Eminem's that has any impressive wordplay, original punches, metaphors, similies, or creativity."
being as you said or, instead of and i only had to find 1 of those things to prove you wrong, and i found 3.

Do me a favor Alain and cut the crap. You're at the point where you're arguing semantics even though you knew damn well what Joey meant. Just gracefully acknowledge that you were wrong and go find something even remotely impressive from Eminem...

Ari

By the way, out of curiousity, since there seem to be only hip hop fans in here, I would like to pose the following question. How do "old-school" rappers like Biggie Smalls and, I guess, Tu-Pac compare to today's underground? Is underground rap a more mature version of the old school? Is rap unchanged?

Also, in terms of creative MUSICAL innovation, how do the forefathers of rap compare to other innovators (the forefathers of other musical genres, if you will) like Mozart, Scott Joplin, Jelly-Roll Morton, Louis Armstrong, The Beatles, Dylan, Zeppelin, etc.?

Ari

"Do me a favor Alain and cut the crap. You're at the point where you're arguing semantics even though you knew damn well what Joey meant. Just gracefully acknowledge that you were wrong and go find something even remotely impressive from Eminem..."

NEVER!!! or at least not until i find something more interesting to do, and that probably aint gonna happen any time soon, so your stuck with me :P

swear words are just like any other words, people use them to tell people how they are feeling

"Second of all, the point of the song is that we shouldn't neccesarily listen to what "musicians," or artists in general, say because they're usually insincere, and don't mean to be taken seriously."

gitarman, face facts, 99% of music SHOULD be ignored, im not talking about Mozart, Scott Joplin, Jelly-Roll Morton, Louis Armstrong, The Beatles, Dylan, Zeppelin, etc. he is bitching agaisnt more the rappers out there, as well as pop 'stars'. hes agreeing with you, hes just doing it on a by impersonating everything that you hate.

>>NEVER!!! or at least not until i find something more interesting to do, and that probably aint gonna happen any time soon, so your stuck with me :P

Hehe I could think of worse things...

>>swear words are just like any other words, people use them to tell people how they are feeling

Riiight....and murder is just another medium of expression as well. So is child porno. Just because you can express your thoughts a certain way, it doesn't mean you neccesarily are justitied in doing so. What if everyone just decided to substitute debate and rhetoric for excessive cursing. Imagine if Patrick Henry had proclaimed "England! F*ck you!" Instead of the classic "Give me liberty, or give me death!" Imagine how juvenile society would be. Furthermore, you know just as well as I that cursing is "cool" in modern music. It especially empowers younger kids (junior high age, or around there) because they feel like they're doing something frowned upon, which, when you're young, always gives you a rush. There's no reason to pervert music with anything of that sort. It would be the equivalent of Michelangelo swabbing fesces on the roof of the Sistine Chapel just to be "shocking" (and gain mainstream publicity).

>>gitarman, face facts, 99% of music SHOULD be ignored,
Fair enough (I disagree, but fair enough). But then...

>>Mozart, Scott Joplin, Jelly-Roll Morton, Louis Armstrong, The Beatles, Dylan, Zeppelin,
Oh. Okay then. So 99% of music NOT INCLUDING classical, jazz, blues, rock, ragtime, etc. and basically centuries worth of music right up until the 90's pop explosion, SHOULD be taken seriously; just that 99% of EVERYTHING ELSE should not... You might as well have just said "yes, gitarman, you're right, because only .01% of music should be ignored and Eminem really IS destructive to music!"

If Eminem really WAS agreeing with me, and believed that music must be sincere, then by now he would have killed his mother and raped his sister and done a whole host of other things he claims to want to do. If he really IS serious about music, then he would stop resorting to sickeningly clichèd background beats (won't even call it music) and random, awful, simulated guitar parts, as a set to lay down pop oriented, "shocking," and utterly unintelligent lyrics.

Ari

Git - I can understand it being your personal preference, but to dislike a song because it includes profanity, especially a song like "Stan," in which it's not used grautitiously, as opposed to say, every single verse from Bizarre or ICP, seems kinda churlish.

I also think you're missing the point of the song. It's not that music is inherently insincere, but rather that music, like any other form of art, is a reflection of reality, but not reality in and of itself.

Finally ... it seems you idealize the past. Given that Mozart died of mercury prescribed to treat his syphillis, I think it's entirely possible he wrote music with no greater ambition than getting laid.

"ehe I could think of worse things..." thanks

"classical, jazz, blues, rock, ragtime, etc. and basically centuries worth of music right up until the 90's pop explosion"
no, most rock is mindless and generic, most blues is just bitching about how crap the singers life is, but the people who started the genres all had good intentions and singing abilities

"Riiight....and murder is just another medium of expression as well. So is child porno." both of those things are bad because they disadvantage the victims. Swear words are beeped out on radio and stuff so u can usually say that if your listening to the music, your fine with the swearing in it

"If he really IS serious about music, then he would stop resorting to sickeningly clichèd background beats (won't even call it music) and random, awful, simulated guitar parts, as a set to lay down pop oriented, "shocking," and utterly unintelligent lyrics."

look at it this way. Eminem hates pop
"You think I give a damn about a Grammy?
Half of you critics can't even stomach me let alone stand me
"But Slim, what if you win, wouldn't it be weird?"
Why? So you guys could just lie to get me here
So you can sit me here next to Britney Spears
Shit Christina Aguilera better switch me chairs
So I can sit next to Carson Daly and Fred Durst
And hear them argue over who she gave head to first"

he also hates his wife and parents, im not even gonna quote lines 4 that

he will go to any lengths possible to wreck his parents/wifes lifes, because they tried to wreck his. If he can get the messege that their evil out to all the world, he'll be happy, the best way to do that is singing it, and his best style of singing is rap. When he became famous he realised that not all of his songs could bitch about three people, so he broadened what he sang about, just to keep his listeners interest, he bitched about america to sound contraversial to gain some more listeners, tho he did still believe what he was singing

the only songs he REALLY cared about writing were things like Stan (bitching about pop and even some R n B) and the songs that were against his wife/parents

Git - so Dylan, and the Beatles, and Zeppelin all lived everything in their songs?

I mean, if you're going to criticize the fact that Eminem's frequently mentioned murdering his wife and mother, what about the fact that Charles Manson claimed "Helter Skelter" as an influence?

Okay, seems I have a lot to respond to... (I'm gonna be quoting Star and Alain so just bear with me here).

>>I can understand it being your personal preference, but to dislike a song because it includes profanity,

Okay, stop right there. You can understand my not liking it, but if I dislike it, then you get all huffy. Contradiction?...
While I'm on the profanity thing. I think that profanity in language is superficial and a product of human insecurity/unintelligence. You'll notice that, for example, the Bible (a very expressive book) never uses profanity. Shakespeare, (also quite the expressive guy), never felt the need to employ profanity. However, I guess standards have deteriorated to the point where making them is sometimes illegal nowadays, so who am I to blast profanity?

>>I also think you're missing the point of the song. It's not that music is inherently insincere, but rather that music, like any other form of art, is a reflection of reality, but not reality in and of itself.

You're going to have to clarify this. I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Give an example maybe?

>>Finally ... it seems you idealize the past. Given that Mozart died of mercury prescribed to treat his syphillis, I think it's entirely possible he wrote music with no greater ambition than getting laid.

Hmm, let's take a parallel situation and see what happens. Let's say you murdered someone by stabbing them to death. In the process of doing so, you ripped their coat. Can another person then presume to say that the whole point of you stabbing them was to destroy the coat? I think not. True, the coat ripping was a direct consequence of the murder, but was that your intent? Obviously not. Similarly, Mozart may have had sex. Everyone does, and that will never change. He may have even not used a Trojan...but does that neccessarily mean he was in it for the girls? Any student of music history worth his salt will tell you the answer is emphatically, no!


>>no, most rock is mindless and generic,

The only possible explanation I could think of for this is that you're reffering to glam rock or something. Or maybe disco-rock, or something along those lines. I mean, what exactly is mindless and generic about The Beatles? Or Bob Dylan? Or Led Zeppelin? Or Yes? Or Eric Clapton? Or...
As you can see, that list can go on and on. (By the way, I noticed you didn't include jazz, classical, and ragtime in that "mindless/generic" category so I think you would have to concede to my point on that one). Any lack of lyrical creativity in SOME rock bands is usually made up for by ridiculous MUSICAL talent (unless it's just a sucky rock band, which I'm perfectly willing to accept).

>>most blues is just bitching about how crap the singers life is

Have you actually listened to any real blues musicians? I have a funny feeling that childish Hollywood cartoon portrayals of "blues" musicians is what's driving your statement here. Not many blues musicians just go around say "I got the blues..." However, to be fair, show me a blues singer that just says "I got the blues..." and I'll show you an incredible musician with insane backing musicians. How's that?

>>both of those things are bad because they disadvantage the victims.

Well then let's just say porno in general. Would you think it appropriate to just go around and distribute it to 18 year olds? It's perfectly legal and it's not "hurting" anyone right? The point is, is that we have certain standards as a good society should. Vulgarity and degradation of women, and excess materialism, etc. just is not something we should be supporting. If we support good music, and all that happens to come along with it (although to a lesser extent) then that's somethin we just have to grin and bear. But when it comes down to it, it's all about the music.
While I'm on the topic. I'm not an antidisestablishmentarian, I'm all in favor of thought out, intelligent rebellion. Notwithstanding, I still can't stand Eminem and the whole rap crew because they're just so plastic and trasnparently vulgar. (They also have no musical talent which is a big beef with me).

>>"You think I give a damn about a Grammy?
Half of you critics can't even stomach me let alone stand me
"But Slim, what if you win, wouldn't it be weird?"
Why? So you guys could just lie to get me here
So you can sit me here next to Britney Spears
Shit Christina Aguilera better switch me chairs
So I can sit next to Carson Daly and Fred Durst
And hear them argue over who she gave head to first"

I will be the first one to admit that most of the whole Eminem and company crowd are very clever limerick writers. They're funny people. Intelligent? No. Thoughtful? No.
This also sounds very silly coming from the guy who's been soaking up the spotlight for years now and who admittedly feeds of the effects of shock value.

>>he also hates his wife and parents, im not even gonna quote lines 4 that

>>he will go to any lengths possible to wreck his parents/wifes lifes, because they tried to wreck his. If he can get the messege that their evil out to all the world, he'll be happy,

Has he killed them yet? Insincerity right there. But let's assume that's just a metaphor (it's possible). What are the evils exactly? And his "ghetto rep," is that for real? I have suspicion that that, and his "poverty" were greatly exaggerated. Furthermore, insulting people is the most base form of debate. It's not EVEN debate. Let's talk about something of substance. At the very least, find someone who DESERVES to be insulted. If you happen to be a conservative, then go after Ted Kennedy or Hillary Clinton or John Kerry. If you're a liberal, go after President Bush, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, or Rush Limbaugh. If you're a commuter, bash the poor upkeep of Penn Station. But for crying out loud, don't talk to me about raping your sister for no apparent reason!...

>>When he became famous he realised that not all of his songs could bitch about three people, so he broadened what he sang about, just to keep his listeners interest, he bitched about america to sound contraversial to gain some more listeners, tho he did still believe what he was singing

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about...

>>Git - so Dylan, and the Beatles, and Zeppelin all lived everything in their songs?

Yes. (I wouldn't say "lived" so much as were sincere about).


>>I mean, if you're going to criticize the fact that Eminem's frequently mentioned murdering his wife and mother, what about the fact that Charles Manson claimed "Helter Skelter" as an influence?

Unless I'm greatly mistaken, I don't think that "Helter Skelter" (a great song) was written with Charles Manson in mind. That would be like me listening to Puff The Magic Dragon (Peter Paul & Mary), doing weed, and then claiming the song was my influence. The song may do that to you, but that simply is not the intent of the song.

Ari

By the way, Star, I like your icon. Family Guy is AWESOME!

By the way, Star, I like your icon. Family Guy is AWESOME!

Off topic, but does anyone know where I can get me one o' them there icons?

The Flemster.

Has anyone watched an interview of this guy? He has the stare of a dead bovine. Everything about him breathes idiocy.

A moron can still make great music, I suppose, but in this case he fails miserably. Production, the only place in which mainstream rap records usually stand out, is half assed here, and even though he's a good rapper he's a bad lyricist, and his music is generally just terrible.

Of course that's just my opinion

"Well then let's just say porno in general. Would you think it appropriate to just go around and distribute it to 18 year olds?" i think its appropriate to distribute it to anyone who wants it

"The Beatles? Or Bob Dylan? Or Led Zeppelin? Or Yes? Or Eric Clapton?"
these are all bands from the 60's, or 70s or watever, most current rock is generic

"I will be the first one to admit that most of the whole Eminem and company crowd are very clever limerick writers. They're funny people. Intelligent? No. Thoughtful? No."
whose arguing with semantics now??? hes clever but not intelligent... :P

">>When he became famous he realised that not all of his songs could bitch about three people, so he broadened what he sang about, just to keep his listeners interest, he bitched about america to sound contraversial to gain some more listeners, tho he did still believe what he was singing

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about..."

yeah, but this is only half his songs, and he knows that theyre crap, hes just doing it so that more people will listen to his good songs

"have you actually listened to any real blues musicians?"
i dunno, tell me the name of a good blues singer, and if i havent heard anything by him/her ill try to.


Has he killed them yet? Insincerity right there. But let's assume that's just a metaphor (it's possible). What are the evils exactly? And his "ghetto rep," is that for real? I have suspicion that that, and his "poverty" were greatly exaggerated. Furthermore, insulting people is the most base form of debate. It's not EVEN debate. Let's talk about something of substance. At the very least, find someone who DESERVES to be insulted. If you happen to be a conservative, then go after Ted Kennedy or Hillary Clinton or John Kerry. If you're a liberal, go after President Bush, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, or Rush Limbaugh. If you're a commuter, bash the poor upkeep of Penn Station. But for crying out loud, don't talk to me about raping your sister for no apparent reason!...

ya mean something like "f*ck you Ms. Cheney, f*ck you Tipper Gore" (White America)

out of curiousity, have i at all changed your mind on Eminem?

Just look for "Family Guy avatars" on Google. You may have to resize 'em.

Git ... okay, perhaps I overstated the Mozart thing. However, celebrity is celebrity. And to repeat, I think you're idealizing the past. Was Shakespeare a great writer? Absolutely. Do most of his tragedies, in terms of the violence, make Resevoir Dogs look like Shrek? Yeah. As for saying he doesn't use profanity ... he doesn't use profanity that you recognize, perhaps, but remember, he wasn't writing for the predominantly academic readership that constitutes his current audience. He was writing to make money, and then as now, if you want to make money, you go for the lowest common denominators ... sex and violence. Sure, Hamlet might be a stunning work of psychological insight, but it's also a gore-filled revenge play.

And yeah, the "Helter Skelter" thing was stupid. But ... Johnny Cash has an entire CD dedicated to "Murder," and what about, "Ride of the Valkyries" or, for that matter, "Immigrant Song?" Don't they glorify violence?

As for him being insincere, I don't think there's any doubt that Eminem despises his mother, and probably his ex-wife, as well. Sure, he hasn't tried to kill them, but if you're going to condemn him for a lack of sincerity, what about Led Zeppelin appropriating the culture of the South?

>>"Well then let's just say porno in general. Would you think it appropriate to just go around and distribute it to 18 year olds?" i think its appropriate to distribute it to anyone who wants it

Well then, you have no standards. Legally, is it okay? Yes. Does that make it right? I hope you would agree with me that, no, it does not.

>>"The Beatles? Or Bob Dylan? Or Led Zeppelin? Or Yes? Or Eric Clapton?"
these are all bands from the 60's, or 70s or watever, most current rock is generic

Good point. I hate "modern rock." Although modern rock does tend to be much more poppy and brainless than it used to be so I'm not sure that it can even be classified as rock n' roll. I would argue that it be officially termed pop-rock, or just give it the pop moniker, do anything, but don't call it rock n' roll. It's just embarrasing for rock fans to have to be associated with that garbage. However, in my defense, you'll notice that I never cited examples of "modern rock" as good, intelligent, artful bands.

>>"I will be the first one to admit that most of the whole Eminem and company crowd are very clever limerick writers. They're funny people. Intelligent? No. Thoughtful? No."
whose arguing with semantics now??? hes clever but not intelligent... :P

Let me clarify, then. When I was little I found songs about farting to be hysterical. I thought those were the best. They were, indeed, very clever limericks that were designed to be funny. The rhymes were cute and the songs were hilarious. Clever lyricists? Yes. INTELLIGENT lyricists? Not at all. See the difference?...

>>yeah, but this is only half his songs, and he knows that theyre crap, hes just doing it so that more people will listen to his good songs

But that's exactly the problem! Assuming that the other half are good songs, you still can't compromise your art form in that manner just for material gains. That is what's known as "selling out."

>>"have you actually listened to any real blues musicians?"
i dunno, tell me the name of a good blues singer, and if i havent heard anything by him/her ill try to.

My pleasure. Check out Junior Wells (insane harmonica player), Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf (Muddy, and the Wolf, are the real pioneers of the blues), Clarence Gatemouth Brown (the most interesting blues innovator, in my opinion) and of course, B.B. King. A great album to check out if you want some real good blues rock music is Riding With The King by B.B. King, and Eric Clapton. It's incredible!
Check that stuff out and see what you think. Remember, blues differs from rap in it's emphasis on musicianship rather than loading the songs with lyrics (I have no problem with either one of those approaches to music, but just bear that in mind).

>>ya mean something like "f*ck you Ms. Cheney, f*ck you Tipper Gore" (White America)

Umm...yea, I guess that's what I would want. That obviously doesn't sound too intelligent, or mature, but then again neither does anything Eminem is putting out now...
Maybe he could try formulating intelligent thoughts and lyrics? That would go over VERY well, I bet.

>>out of curiousity, have i at all changed your mind on Eminem?

I can't honestly say that I like Eminem more now, than I did last week. However, you HAVE made me aware that Eminem fans aren't ALL the idiotic, assembly-line products of MTV that I thought they were. In that sense, you have changed my perception of Eminem.

Now Star's post:

>>Was Shakespeare a great writer? Absolutely. Do most of his tragedies, in terms of the violence, make Resevoir Dogs look like Shrek? Yeah.

What does this mean, exactly?

>>As for saying he doesn't use profanity ... he doesn't use profanity that you recognize, perhaps, but remember, he wasn't writing for the predominantly academic readership that constitutes his current audience.

You may not be aware, but what you just said is that Shakespeare wrote for an audience that he knew he would have hundreds of years later. I'm not sure that that's historically accurate...
In all seriousness though, Shakespeare was not a squeaky clean character, I don't think any entertainer truly is. Everyone has an opinion, but insofar as Shakespeare wrote in the King's English, even though nobody in his time spoke that way anymore, I would have to say that Shakespeare was infinitely more refined and intelligent in use of language than, say, Eminem. Obviously Shakespeare had a sense of humor, and had things to complain about, but to compare the quality of his work to the vulgarity of Eminem's is just ridiculous. Shakespeare wrote for the sophisticated fan of the theatre, as well as the idiot street crowd, but obviously did not compromise the quality, or intelligence of his work in any way for that reason. Eminem just writes for the young "rebel" crowd. Absolutely no intelligence there. He didn't even "sell out," he just never "sold in." He had no intelligence or purity to compromise anyway...

>> He was writing to make money, and then as now, if you want to make money, you go for the lowest common denominators ... sex and violence.

See, this really bothers me. Don't believe this for a second. It simply isn't true. Eric Clapton (at least in the latter half of his career) played music for a living, and made a great living off of it. However, he didn't feel that he had to target the interests of the lowest common denominator. You might be able to argue that he DID target the lowest common denominator, but then you would also have to say that back then, the lowest common denominator hadn't sunk as low as it is today, and wasn't too interested in drugs and sex. If that's the case, then in the 60's and 70's, targeting the lowest common denominator wouldn't be so bad. I don't think that's such a viable argument to make though, from an historical point of view...

>>Johnny Cash has an entire CD dedicated to "Murder,"

Woah, woah, hold on. Do you mean to tell me that JOHNNY CASH is just another artist who succumbed to the condonation of violence to please the lowest common denominator??!! Johnny Cash??!!! The Man In Black??!!! Gimme a break! The CD murder was a descriptive, folk influenced, insight into crime and cruelty, by a man whose bedrock faith and religioin was doubtless (just listen to "My God Is Real," a great Johnny Cash song). The criminals in that song are true bad guys; outlaws and psychopaths who lose their conscience and their souls. Of course Johnny Cash was a rebel. However, Johnny Cash also new how to walk the line. His songs of violence were on the line. Eminem crosses it...quite brazenly, might I add. That is the difference between Johnny Cash, and Eminem (aside, of course, from the incredible MUSIC of the Man In Black, as opposed to the complete lack of said music in Eminem's stuff).

>>"Ride of the Valkyries"

By Wagner? Okay, think about this for a second. You are trying to draw a parallel from the classical composer Wagner, to the pop icon Eminem. The only thing I can think of that they have in common is that possibly both are anti-semitic (although I'm not sure if Eminem is really an anti-semite...it would make sense though if that were true). Don't even TRY to get away with this one. Just not happening. Take the music of Ride of the Valkyries, and take any Eminem song and give them to a disinterested party. Ask that party which he/she/they thinks are more vulgar, violent, and distasteful. I think you know as well as I do what the result will be.

>>"Immigrant Song?"

You're quoting this song WAY out of context. Please show me exactly how this song glorifies, or even slightly condones, violence? I believe the last few lines of the song are "So now you’d better stop and rebuild all your ruins, for peace and trust can win the day, despite all your losing." Cummon, you know this one isn't happening either...

>>As for him being insincere, I don't think there's any doubt that Eminem despises his mother, and probably his ex-wife, as well. Sure, he hasn't tried to kill them, but if you're going to condemn him for a lack of sincerity, what about Led Zeppelin appropriating the culture of the South?

You're going to have to explain this better. Appropriating the culture of the...what?... I'm not sure exactly what you were talking about here. You could just concede that I'm right on this one.... Just a thought haha.

Ari

Shakespare ... look at the ending of Hamlet or the whole of Titus Andronicus. That's not a glorification of violence? Macbeth being beheaded and the gleeful presentation of his head? And please, to pretend that say, The Comedy of Errors is a refined work of literary genius is absurd. It's Elizabethean Adam Sandler. And Macbeth? Amazing play, but also political propaganda for James I.

Also, "he wasn't writing for the predominantly academic readership that constitutes his current audience"

You may not be aware, but what you just said is that Shakespeare wrote for an audience that he knew he would have hundreds of years later. I'm not sure that that's historically accurate...

Pay attention to the contraction. I said he wasn't writing for that audience, but rather for the people of his time.
Wagner - If you're going to criticize Eminem for gloryifying violence, then how can you not apply the same standard to a song about warrior angels?

Johnny Cash - I agree that Johnny Cash treats violence with much more ... dignity than Eminem, but how can you not hear the (emotional) similarities between "I Hung My Head" and "Stan"?

Immigrant Song - It's a song about a Viking raid. But specifically, "Valhalla I am coming." Valhalla's reserved for those who die in combat.

Appropriating the culture of the South - buncha English guys playing blues ... I mean, "When the Levee Breaks"?

>>Shakespare ... look at the ending of Hamlet or the whole of Titus Andronicus. That's not a glorification of violence? Macbeth being beheaded and the gleeful presentation of his head?

No, it is not. It's that simple. Ask any literary historian if Shakespeare wrote Hamlet, or any play for that matter, with the intent to glorify violence. They will tell you that's absurd, guarranteed. If you read any essays on Macbeth (especially introductory essays before the play) you will see that Macbeth was actually an extremely complex character study. Nowhere in the play is violence encouraged. There IS violence in the play, but to take the extreme position that just because the play has violence, therefore it must be glorifying it, is patently crazy!

>> The Comedy of Errors is a refined work of literary genius is absurd. It's Elizabethean Adam Sandler.

The Comedy of Errors is one of (if not the) earliest work of William Shakespeare. Although no one actually spoke that way anymore, Shakespeare chose to write this play in Elizabethan English. He drew mostly on Roman sources for this play, especially from (I believe) the Roman playwright Plautus. This may have had more slapstick, rather than verbal humor, but to say that this was the equivalent of an Adam Sandler movie is silly. Although to be fair, this play was not as well received by critics.

>>And Macbeth? Amazing play, but also political propaganda for James I.

What's your point?

>>Pay attention to the contraction. I said he wasn't writing for that audience, but rather for the people of his time.

If that's the case, then, again, what's your point?

>>Wagner - If you're going to criticize Eminem for gloryifying violence, then how can you not apply the same standard to a song about warrior angels?

Think about this. A musically vulgar, vocally dead, rap about killing your mother and raping your sister, vs. a timeless piece of powerful classical music by Wagner whose theme centered around the surreal. Let's think about this one...
Again, I challenge you to ask any random person on the street or out of a phone book, who they think is more violent: Wagner or Eminem. If they say Eminem, try accusing them of holding a double standard and see how long they keep taking you seriously.

>>Johnny Cash - I agree that Johnny Cash treats violence with much more ... dignity than Eminem,

My point exactly

>>but how can you not hear the (emotional) similarities between "I Hung My Head" and "Stan"?

Whaaa.....????? You gotta explain this better.

>>Immigrant Song - It's a song about a Viking raid. But specifically, "Valhalla I am coming." Valhalla's reserved for those who die in combat.

Once again, what's your point? I never once have said that no one should make ANY references to death. I merely said that Eminem glorifies killing his mother and raping his sister which is silly and immature and reflects poorly on society as a whole. The fact that Led Zeppelin mentions death in an extremely insightful song about rebuilding from the ruins of destruction, is really inconsequential to me. Don't even try this one. It's not working. The song is about the tragedy of a Viking raid, not about Robert Plant killing his mother.

>>Appropriating the culture of the South - buncha English guys playing blues ... I mean, "When the Levee Breaks"?

What the hell are you talking about??? So they were great musicians...what, exactly, is your point?

You've got some explaining to do, Star.

Ari

"Well then, you have no standards. Legally, is it okay? Yes. Does that make it right? I hope you would agree with me that, no, it does not."

if someone wants to do something that doesnt hurt anyone else, im not going to make them think its wrong


"However, in my defense, you'll notice that I never cited examples of "modern rock" as good, intelligent, artful bands."

good point, but are you sure you hate eminem and not just modern music as a whole?


"Clever lyricists? Yes. INTELLIGENT lyricists? Not at all. See the difference?..."

i do, but i would say eminem is clever and bordering on intelligent


"My pleasure. Check out Junior Wells (insane harmonica player), Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf (Muddy, and the Wolf, are the real pioneers of the blues), Clarence Gatemouth Brown (the most interesting blues innovator, in my opinion) and of course, B.B. King. A great album to check out if you want some real good blues rock music is Riding With The King by B.B. King, and Eric Clapton. It's incredible!
Check that stuff out and see what you think. Remember, blues differs from rap in it's emphasis on musicianship rather than loading the songs with lyrics (I have no problem with either one of those approaches to music, but just bear that in mind)."

alrighty, thx


"Umm...yea, I guess that's what I would want. That obviously doesn't sound too intelligent, or mature, but then again neither does anything Eminem is putting out now..."

gets the point across tho :P


"I can't honestly say that I like Eminem more now, than I did last week. However, you HAVE made me aware that Eminem fans aren't ALL the idiotic, assembly-line products of MTV that I thought they were. In that sense, you have changed my perception of Eminem"

kool, i havent been wasting my time then


"I would have to say that Shakespeare was infinitely more refined and intelligent in use of language than"

do you know how many words Shakespeare created?, just made them up out of his mind because he needed something to rhyme. almost all his lines are 10 syllables long, to make them consistent, his writing had to not make sense. there are lots of italian stories that are very similar to shakepeares works (but were written before) and shakespeares historical works were highly inaccurate

>>"Well then, you have no standards. Legally, is it okay? Yes. Does that make it right? I hope you would agree with me that, no, it does not."

>>if someone wants to do something that doesnt hurt anyone else, im not going to make them think its wrong

How about drugs? Based on this, we should have to make everything legal - from marijuana to heroin.
You have to accept that we, as a society, are allowed to set standards and say this is wrong. If we can't then where will it end. For that matter, why are you limiting people by saying they can't do things that harm other people? Why does that matter? Who are you to say that harming other people is wrong? The point is that we ARE allowed to have ethics and morals.

>>"However, in my defense, you'll notice that I never cited examples of "modern rock" as good, intelligent, artful bands."

>>good point, but are you sure you hate eminem and not just modern music as a whole?

Actually, I DO hate modern music as a whole. However, I wouldn't word it that way. I would say that since modern music seems to be permanently infused with a lack of creativity and intelligence, I find it quite distasteful. Obviously, there are exceptions. When someone comes along who possesses sufficient creativity, intelligence, and musical taste to not bore me, I give them a listen. For example, I love Aesop Rock. I think he's great. I also love Dave Matthew's Band.

>>"My pleasure. Check out Junior Wells (insane harmonica player), Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf (Muddy, and the Wolf, are the real pioneers of the blues), Clarence Gatemouth Brown (the most interesting blues innovator, in my opinion) and of course, B.B. King. A great album to check out if you want some real good blues rock music is Riding With The King by B.B. King, and Eric Clapton. It's incredible!
Check that stuff out and see what you think. Remember, blues differs from rap in it's emphasis on musicianship rather than loading the songs with lyrics (I have no problem with either one of those approaches to music, but just bear that in mind)."

>>alrighty, thx

Any feedback on that yet?

>>"Umm...yea, I guess that's what I would want. That obviously doesn't sound too intelligent, or mature, but then again neither does anything Eminem is putting out now..."

>>gets the point across tho :P

Yes, but not the one you intended. The point that I think has been made clear by this is that Eminem really has nothing intelligent to say. All he can do is fill in the blanks of a rather generic lyrical scheme. As you illustrated, it's all pretty much F*** you ____ (fill in the blanks). Very unimaginative if you ask me...

>>do you know how many words Shakespeare created?, just made them up out of his mind because he needed something to rhyme.

I'm a big fan of Shakespeare and I take this very personally (hehe...). This is quite an accusation. Let's see if it holds true. Let's take two of Shakespeare's most famous soliloquys and test your hypothesis:
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pitch and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.-- Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember'd.
(Hamlet)

There is not one word in there that is made up. Just to preempt any problems you may have, though..."fardels" means "burdens." "Quietus" means "something that brings an activity to an end." "Contumely" means "insulting."
Just because the words are tough, doesn't mean he made them up.

Let's take another example:
If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well
It were done quickly: if the assassination
Could trammel up the consequence, and catch
With his surcease success; that but this blow
Might be the be-all and the end-all here,
But here, upon this bank and shoal of time,
We'd jump the life to come. But in these cases
We still have judgment here; that we but teach
Bloody instructions, which, being taught, return
To plague the inventor: this even-handed justice
Commends th' ingredience of our poison'd chalice
To our own lips. He's here in double trust;
First, as I am his kinsman and his subject,
Strong both against the deed; then, as his host,
Who should against his murderer shut the door,
Not bear the knife myself. Besides, this Duncan
Hath borne his faculties so meek, hath been
So clear in his great office, that his virtues
Will plead like angels, trumpet-tongued, against
The deep damnation of his taking-off;
And pity, like a naked new-born babe,
Striding the blast, or heaven's cherubim, horsed
Upon the sightless couriers of the air,
Shall blow the horrid deed in every eye,
That tears shall drown the wind. I have no spur
To prick the sides of my intent, but only
Vaulting ambition, which o'erleaps itself
And falls on th' other.
(Macbeth)

No made up words there either, sorry. Again, as a preemption: "ingredience" is the Elizabethan spelling of "ingredients."
Out of lack of supporting evidence, I am forced to reject your hypothesis.

>>almost all his lines are 10 syllables long,

I believe you're referring to the poetic device known as meter. Shakespeare was famous for employing the use of iambic pentameter (five iambs in a row - 10 syllables). Meter is extremely important, especially in Anglo-Saxon poetry. There are poets (referring to REAL poets - not rap, and other such trash. I'm talking the likes of Longfellow, Frost, Keats, Byron, etc.) who will swear by meter, and those who choose not to adhere to it. However, no one will deny the importance and creativity of meter. It gives one a greater awareness of language and forces the prospective poet to choose his or her words wisely. There is no room for free for alls when meter is being used. A superb grasp of the intricacies of language is imperative for the poet who chooses to use meter. Shakespeare is one of, if not the best metrical poet in history. No question about that. Your implication that his use of meter was a bad thing is just silly.
As a side point, he obviously didn't just repeat the iambic pentameter over and over, he varied in his use of meter and employed trochees, anapests, dactyls, and so on, in different orders such as hexameter, dimeter, trimeter, etc.

>>to make them consistent, his writing had to not make sense.

Now you're just spewing...

>>there are lots of italian stories that are very similar to shakepeares works (but were written before)

This isn't a revelation. Shakespeare was famous for his Italian and Roman influences. However, no competent historian, or literary expert would venture to say that Shakespeare was not one of (again, if not the) greatest playwright of all time.

>>shakespeares historical works were highly inaccurate

They weren't meant to be history books. They were meant to be plays. You think Braveheart was a complete and unbiased historical account as well? Obviously not. That doesn't detract from the fact that it was a great movie.

Ari

"How about drugs? Based on this, we should have to make everything legal - from marijuana to heroin.
You have to accept that we, as a society, are allowed to set standards and say this is wrong. If we can't then where will it end. For that matter, why are you limiting people by saying they can't do things that harm other people? Why does that matter? Who are you to say that harming other people is wrong? The point is that we ARE allowed to have ethics and morals."

any answer i give, youll just say "but why?", but i have to draw a line somewhere, heroin can easily hurt other people, heroin addicts can do some stupid things, and often turn to crime to pay. i believe it is unfair to harm someone else because thats how i was brought up i guess, i respect human rights to almost any extent


"Any feedback on that yet?"

ive listened to some Eric clapton and he is good, listened to bad to the bone by muddy waters, if that songs like the rest of his then he is cool


"Yes, but not the one you intended. The point that I think has been made clear by this is that Eminem really has nothing intelligent to say. All he can do is fill in the blanks of a rather generic lyrical scheme. As you illustrated, it's all pretty much F*** you ____ (fill in the blanks). Very unimaginative if you ask me..."

i know, you said that he didnt insult anyone of importance and i was listening to that song so i picked that, i could find a more subtle way that he insulted some authority figure if your bothered

Shakespeare was the first person to ever use the word 'thing'


"However, no competent historian, or literary expert would venture to say that Shakespeare was not one of (again, if not the) greatest playwright of all time."
No competent judge for all those crap music awards would say anything bad against pop crap, popular doesnt mean good. and im not talking about Italian influences, he ripped entire plots off

"They weren't meant to be history books. They were meant to be plays." well they were taken as hostory books, and now everyone has totally wrong ideas about the monarchs of the time