Personally I think that Chi/Qi is complete nonsense. I do not think there is some mystical psychic energy running through our body.

What are your thoughts?

Before I disagree with you, I'd like to ask a question. Have you ever pushed yourself to your physical limits?

There is a biochemical current of energy in our bodies. There is a polarity to our body's cell structure.
Is it Chi?
I'm not sure.

It's just another interpretation of how to keep healthy really, with a few true points and a healthy dose of mysticism for a placebo effect.

It's not magic, or mystical, or anything. I do Qigong exercises at my martial arts school, as do nearly all other students, the chi is real. It just takes a very long time to develop.

Personally I think that Chi/Qi is complete nonsense. I do not think there is some mystical psychic energy running through our body.
As I often see it discussed and defined around here and elsewhere, I completely agree that it’s a load of fantasy bunk. (I see someone has already started with the martial arts nonsense, and just wait till EmptyForceOfChi starts posting to see what I mean.)

But there is no doubt that our bodies are electrochemical in nature. I would wager that the whole Chi idea has arisen from misinterpreted observations of simple biomechanics and observations that stimulating nerve impulses (with needles or pressure from fingers) can produce some seemingly surprising results. Of course, these fall long short of the ridiculous claims of some acupuncturists as to the healing powers of the technique. But it has been shown in scientific clinical trials that acupuncture has a beneficial effect for some simple conditions.

For example, there was a very interesting recent scientific research publication that demonstrated that “sham acupuncture” (ie. randomly inserted needles) produced the same effect as “normal acupuncture” (ie. needles inserted in the “proper” points on the body) in treating migraine symptoms, and that both the sham and normal acupuncture were better at migraines than in control patients.


There is a polarity to our body's cell structure.
The cell biological concept of “cell polarity” is totally different to the electrical concept of polarity. Cell polarity is usually in reference to its shape and direction of migration.

God, qi, heaven, karma, soul... they're all paradigms people have developed after struggling with aspects of the universe that have eluded their understanding. Regard them as metaphors and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with them if they work.

The cell biological concept of “cell polarity” is totally different to the electrical concept of polarity. Cell polarity is usually in reference to its shape and direction of migration.

This is true. I should have used the concept of magnetism.
I just associated polarity with magnetism which most people do understand readily from elementary science.

But simply speaking in the molecules of cells at the atomic level you have a "spin" value that is liken to a tiny magnet. MRI uses this spin for its diagnostic imagery.

Whose to say that the spin factors of cells do not have some importance to the validity of Chi, scientifically speaking.

Call it what you will, but it is an experience that can't be described. You need to feel it firsthand.

I don't care for a lot of the spiritual baggage, either.

I've felt it before, but I might be wrong. I could have felt something quite ordinary. Mabye it is something like the electric signals to contract muscles being ignored, therefore the electricity going through your body. Or that spin thing. Who knows, there are so many possibilities, and hardly anyone does proper research on stuff like that.

But there is no doubt that our bodies are electrochemical in nature. I would wager that the whole Chi idea has arisen from misinterpreted observations of simple biomechanics and observations that stimulating nerve impulses (with needles or pressure from fingers) can produce some seemingly surprising results.



I agree completely. I do not deny what people "feel" something-- but I nevertheless think that they've misinterpreted what they've felt and decide to call that feeling Chi.

but I nevertheless think that they've misinterpreted what they've felt and decide to call that feeling Chi.

That's just semantics.

That's just semantics.

Hmm...I agree. I guess what I mean is that the mystical and/or spiritual atmosphere tied around Chi is nonsense.

well, if we can feel electric/magnetic fields, then mabye a "spirit" is just an electromagnetic field. That would explain the goosebump and shiver thing. Just another random theory.

Regarding acupuncture. I twisted the sole of my foot below my ankle in a peculiar way when I clipped past another motorcycle zooming down an alley in Taiwan. All conventional pain killers prescribed had no effect on the excrutiating pain, including narcotics. The docs didn't have anything else to give me until one suggested acupuncture. It worked like a charm - absolutely pain free after that.

In China they burn an herb on the end of the needle that's supposed to enhance or stimulate the energy healing effects. Then the acupuncterist put a clip-tab on the bottom tip of my right ear and told me to squeeze it if I had anymore pain after the acupuncture. I did have some pain, I squeezed the clip on my ear, and the pain instantly was gone. Acupuncture taps into energy points throughout the body. It works.

Acupuncture taps into energy points throughout the body. It works.


Are you sure that is what it does? Are you sure it does not just release endorphins? NO! You are not sure! It helped your pain, which I'm not denying...but that does no even begin to mean that it "taps into energy points throughout the body." That's exactly what this post is about --the fictional air around Chi/energy.

Yeah, I agree Possumking. Fuck that dualist shit. I think in the coming decades, medical science is going to discover a lot of what we intuitively know and superstitiously believe has a real basis.

There are a whole bunch of intangibles that affect our health we're just now becoming reaquainted with, relabeling. Walking on paved sidewalks and hard floors, every day for years causes foot and back problems. Walking on uneven, broken surfaces that could be dangerous and are definitely difficult to walk on end up being more healthy for us, as they keep our ankles strong.

So, we should rip up the pavements and put earth there instead? Actually, that doesnt seems such a bad idea...

Well, pavement is convenient for things with wheels on them. Hard, flat surfaces are also easier to clean.

Personally I think that Chi/Qi is complete nonsense. I do not think there is some mystical psychic energy running through our body.

What are your thoughts?

I agree. Her and c7ity should meet up sometime. They both spout the same made up crap all the time. Oh and "I AM GOD!".

Oh and "I AM GOD!".
No, that was Qorl

It's mystical mumbo-jumbo. Anyone who beleives that stuff is a fool.

maybe you're the fool?

Seriously.

I honestly don't see what there is to "believe", the ancient Chinese did studies on this, figured out what it could do, and called it "Qi". Qi is a word for energies within the body, be they electromagnetic or not. The fact of the matter is, these "energies" can offer health benefits.

Sure, there are stories about people who could make their bodies ultralight so they could fly, and people who can move things without touching them, I'm open to this but whether or not it's true is obviously not debatable amongst this group.

And don't ask me for a "source" when we're talking about proven fact, get your own source, look it up for yourself.

Seriously.
Only stating additional options. When gravity was first mentioned, it was regarded impossible and magical and was discarded as that. We still don't really understand how gravity works, but we accept it. Chi is something like that.

For example, there was a very interesting recent scientific research publication that demonstrated that “sham acupuncture” (ie. randomly inserted needles) produced the same effect as “normal acupuncture” (ie. needles inserted in the “proper” points on the body) in treating migraine symptoms, and that both the sham and normal acupuncture were better at migraines than in control patients.


uhm.. since you know nothin of acupuncture I will explaine some.

Acupuncture stimulates energy centers, chakras etc. This in turn activates blood flow, nerve stimulation etc.

There are thousands od acupuncture points in the body. So random stimulations of random chakras would surely benefit the ailment.

And if the pressure points are stimulated properly in the correct positions, there will be even greater healing benefits.

Qi-Gong is also very real. There are scientific reports on the effect of Qi-Gong or Tai Chi on neurological problems. Studies have been done and people who do Qi-Gong heal faster, can heal ailments etc.

uhm.. since you know nothin of acupuncture I will explaine some.
uhm.. since you know nothin about science I will address your post.


There are thousands od acupuncture points in the body. So random stimulations of random chakras would surely benefit the ailment. And if the pressure points are stimulated properly in the correct positions, there will be even greater healing benefits.
But that’s just the point! http://www.fadzter.com/smilies/rolleyes.gif There were no "greater healing benefits" when comparing random stimulations and "proper" stimulations. So your assertion that there are "correct positions" is shot out of the water right there.


Qi-Gong is also very real. There are scientific reports on the effect of Qi-Gong or Tai Chi on neurological problems. Studies have been done and people who do Qi-Gong heal faster, can heal ailments etc.
Yeah right. I bet you can’t even give a succinct scientifically verifiable definition of what Qi-Gong is. (My prediction is that you’ll proffer the usual pseudo-scientific mysto-cryptical waffle.) But at any rate, you should be able to show me all these scientific reports. Bear in mind that I have already mentioned in a post above that there are some legitimate scientific studies that suggest (mostly only by correlation, the weakest form of scientific evidence) acupuncture can aid in the treatment of some ailments.

Over to you. Show me your science....

Ouch

That seemed kind of harsh Hercules. After all, he supplied just as much evidence/sources as you did. Furthermore, the study you described says that there were NO greater benefits from precise vs. random needle placement in migrane patients. If you're going to be so critical of his evidence, maybe you should use much more broad studies. But, Im not going to be any more critical until I have seen your studies - I have no reason to doubt you or their validity.

As far as accupuncture, my personal experience has been this: My father woke up one morning with bells palsy. The left side of his face was completely paralyzed and numb. Doctors couldnt do anything. My brother, who but a wee lad, thought he would help by randomly poking needles into my dads arm as his own form of accupuncture. While I believed strongly in it (ambition of youth), my dad did not even a little, but he let my brother continue to poke him in daily sessions, like a game of doctor or something.
Finally, one day, I showed my brother the proper spots (to the best of my knowledge) where he should put the needles in. After that session of 'doctor,' my dad regained mobility and feeling in some of his face which the doctor described as 'amazing.' After I told him that he had been tricked into accupuncture, he went into a professional. Today, after 2 'strikes' of bells palsy, each followed by accupuncture treatment, my father has roughly 80% use of the left side of his face. I personally attribute it to accupuncture. However it works, "Them thar a-shenze got somethin riiite!"

Your right the people that think that the old asian world knows what they are talking about is completly full of crap! I mean herbal remedies! COME ON! Seems more like several 1000's of years playn mad scientist!

There is NO way one could compare there intellectually impared VOODO with our superior science OR medicine, right!?


HMMMM.......WAIT, I wonder what Medicen could be made of OH it's made of herbs, extracts, minerals, etc. all researched and put together long befor Western medicine came around to do it.

Take a long look at some pharmaceuticals they are made from things that the anciants use to cure the very same ailments. Also just because you get the meds in a in a nice pill format the basic practice is the same, then and now.

The ancients also have a rather good grasp on body mechanics and anatomy physiology.

The problem comes in our differing cultural aspects. Where the ancients saw the body having a life force that could be made stronger, exercised and controlled and calls it Chi.

WESTERN practice may see the body as having a nervous system that has neurological response points and nerve masses and is autonomous from our control.

Many western people would never contemplate walking on fire, breaking wood or bricks with there body or controlling there heart rate and asian culture has made it an art form.

Acupressure and acupuncture untill recently was seen as VOODO, yet are now accepted as a proven medical practice.

Neurological science is just now seeing that people can and do alter there electrical impulses and even there body chemistry [look into the American Academy of Neurology] so actively learning to do this is just the next step, a step taken long ago by a different culture.

Call it what you want but Chi is real it may not be that mistical force that people think it is but it is a fact. Just remember that many if not all things befor they are understood are considered magic, voodo or worse.