Those barbaric, backward Muslims.

Discussion in 'Art & Culture' started by outlandish, Jul 21, 2004.

  1. outlandish smoki'n....... Registered Senior Member

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    i) Examples of early Islamic art:

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    Cosmetic container
    Eastern Mediterranean, eighth to ninth century
    Glass, free-blown, tooled, with applied decoration



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    Ewer
    Greater Iran, Nishapur or Samarqand, tenth century
    Earthenware, underglaze painted


    further examples:
    http://www.lacma.org/islamic_art/thumbnails/thmbnail_EI.htm

    ii) Early medieval art:

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    Plate
    Iran, twelfth century
    Fritware, luster painted over a blue glaze



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    Ewer
    Iran, late twelfth to early thirteenth century
    Fritware, overglaze painted (mina'i)


    http://www.lacma.org/islamic_art/thumbnails/thmbnail_EM.htm

    iii) Late medieval art:

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    Tile
    Greater Iran, fifteenth century
    Fritware, glazed, cut to shape and assembled as mosaic



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    Tile
    Iran, Kashan, early fourteenth century
    Fritware, overglaze luster painted with cobalt and turquoise


    http://www.lacma.org/islamic_art/thumbnails/thmbnail_LM.htm

    iv) Late Islamic art:

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    Textile, possibly a cushion cover
    Turkey, mid-sixteenth century
    Silk and metal foil-wrapped silk embroidered on compound satin ground


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    Tile
    Turkey, Iznik, circa 1580-90
    Fritware, underglaze painted



    Islamic art is perhaps the most accessible manifestation of a complex civilization that often seems enigmatic to outsiders. Through its brilliant use of color and its superb balance between design and form, Islamic art creates an immediate visual impact. Its strong aesthetic appeal transcends distances in time and space, as well as differences in language, culture, and creed. Islamic art not only invites a closer look but also beckons the viewer to learn more. For an American audience a visit to the Islamic galleries of a museum such as the Los Angeles County Museum of Art can represent the first step toward penetrating the history of a religion and a culture that are often in the news but are little understood.



    http://www.lacma.org/islamic_art/intro.htm
     
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  3. Thor "Pfft, Rebel scum!" Valued Senior Member

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    Although Islamic art doesn't really appeal to me, I do agree with the overall point you make. If people actually look and study the culture before judging them and painting them all with the same brush, this world would be a better place.

    People today brand Muslims with the mark of the few extremists and forget the fact that many are highly cultured, free thinking people. Sure the culture may appear backward to the western world, but that's part of its charm.
     
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  5. Dreamwalker Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    Well, I have to say those are nice pieces of art, althought it is nothing I would use for decoration

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    But hey, I really like their art and their old philosophies and their medicinal knowledge and all that. But I really hate their music...

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  7. Crimson_Scribe Thespian Registered Senior Member

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    I've got a friend who's gone to university to study Islamic art (she hopes to eventually get a PhD in the subject). And i can add that I love the music!
     
  8. cyberia Lounge Act Registered Senior Member

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    Islam is a little hard to classify as just one specific category as it includes how many countries right across asia? (iran to indo).

    But the culture and art driven by islam is incredible I mean, just look at the beauty and care they put into their written language. The intracate work and devotion put into even alot of their early and ancient examples is mind boggling.

    Mihrab from the Madrasa Imami in Isfahan, 1354 ad.
    http://www.metmuseum.org/works_of_art/images/is/images/is39.20.L.jpg
     
  9. Fenris Wolf Banned Banned

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    What bothers me is that you're all in here almost falling over backwards in your attempts to "appreciate" Islamic art. Islamic Art? It's some pottery, tiles and (possibly) a cushion cover from several different countries, different from each other in many ways but having a common religion - one that just happens to be a focus of attention at the moment. The whole world creates art in attempts to glorify religion. Actually, looking at it, I can't even see that Islam is the focus in some of those. Perhaps it's my lack of "appreciation" for the "Muslim culture".

    So.. what do we have here? a collection of stuff from a few different Muslim countries. A few people showing their "wordliness and understanding" by saying how beautiful it all is, showcasing their "tolerance".

    I wonder how much you'd even notice these things if they hadn't been noted as originating from Islamic nations.
     
  10. Fenris Wolf Banned Banned

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    567
    Oh, and cyberia...

    Islam is what "drives them to put beauty and care into their written language"?
    There are many written languages which are quite pleasant to look at, when done with care. Whatever makes you think Islam has anything to do with it?
     
  11. Closet Philosopher Off to Laurentian University Registered Senior Member

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    1,785
    the art doesn't appeal to me. Sometimes we forget that other people have their own culture and art. The media makes us think of them as less than human.
     
  12. Thersites Registered Senior Member

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    You could as easily produce beautiful and elegant stone age, Aztec or Toltec art. Most of us aren't too fond of islam for political, philosophical or religious reasons, not aesthetic reasons.
     
  13. cyberia Lounge Act Registered Senior Member

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    Fenris, as I stated: "Islam is a little hard to classify as just one specific category as it includes how many countries right across asia? (iran to indo)."

    What I guess I failed to make clear is that an influence such as a religion would provide a common theme throughout this art. Take for example the common themes in buddhist art, another religious group that historically stretches from the med. sea to the pac. ocean.

    Fenris:
    "What makes me think Islam has anything to do with it (the language)"
    Arabic is the universal language of Muslims, as it is the language of the Qur'an. Although only 15% of Muslims speak Arabic as a native tongue, most others attempt to learn the basics.

    THE LANGUAGE COMES FROM AND WITH THE RELIGION!

    But of course you knew this as you called me on it in such an intelligent fashion.

    One would also recognise Islamic art by several factors. Especially art from the middle eastern area. Islamic art is usually very symetrical and intracate. As opposed to and compared with the art of greece/rome of the same period which had more interest in natural lines. It is very pattern based. Compared with the egyptian art of the time it is also generally very geodesic, with many repeating patterns, where as egyptian art is much more minimal and rounded. Most art is in keeping with nomadic tribal tradition in that it is almost always very practical. ie: vessel's for carrying water.

    Religious art in Islam tend to be particularily intracate, I would like to refer to the above link which i posted. Its is an amazing mosaic Mihrab. Incredibly intracate, including arabic passages in the stone work. Language within mosaics is rare and particularily difficult with complex languages (such as sanskrit, arabic) and rarely attempted with block letter languages such as english.

    If you would like a more in depth explanation of how one would recognise and deliniate between art of middle eastern nations and religions I would be happy to explain it to you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2004
  14. Fenris Wolf Banned Banned

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    567
    Precisely. Have a look at the examples given above - all middle eastern. Odd, that - the Malays and Indonesians don't seem to get a look in. Is that because they're somewhat removed from the current focus of attention on the middle eastern Muslims rather than Asians? Perhaps because their art is completely different from that seen above and therefore doesn't fit with a "Muslim" style? What of the Africans? I suppose their style doesn't fit with this... erm... "Islamic" art style either.

    Seems the classifying has been done already... wouldn't you say?

    The thing is that those intricate patterns as evidenced by a few of the examples have been around for several thousand years as a theme - and yet Islam itself as a religion only 2 thousand. Again, what makes you say that Islam is the driving force behind the themes rather than regional preference?

    Do they really? I saw very little evidence of that in Asia. Arabic has been around, again, a lot longer than Islam has. This is like saying that english is the universal language of christianity, and that :

    No, it does not. If you'd bothered to read other threads around here lately, you might have seen that religion could not have existed without language to begin with.

    Again, I'll ask you. Where is your evidence that this theme is Islamic in origin as opposed to Arabic?

    What we've been shown here is Arabic art with an Islamic theme. Not Islamic art with an Arabic theme. Your perception of current events in the world is giving you a rather warped persective on origins of it.
     
  15. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    I can still remember the taliban destroying ancient buddhist statues. That is the sort of thing people associate a modern islamic position towards art with I am afraid. It will take a lot of effort to reverse this weighty image.

    http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0301-04.htm
     
  16. outlandish smoki'n....... Registered Senior Member

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    4,033
    no, most of us have our perceptions of Islam formed by the pop media.

    most of us actually have no idea of the political/socio/economic/theological ideologies within Islam from a dialectical point of view.
     
  17. outlandish smoki'n....... Registered Senior Member

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    yes it will take a lot.
    why?

    because negative extreme reactionary actions are always front page news.
     
  18. cyberia Lounge Act Registered Senior Member

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    169
    Fenris wolf: The language came about because of the religion. It is a religious language.

    Modern Standard Arabic is used in reading, writing, and high register speech. It is descended from the Classical language of the Quran and in the view of almost all Arabs, is the "correct" Arabic. However, Modern Standard Arabic is a learned language. It is noones mother tongue. In fact, all Arabs grow up learning the second or colloquial language.

    The language it descends from is a afro-asiatic language called proto-semitic. And they are very similar in structure. Arabic is simply the higher religious form of the language.

    For further reading I suggest:
    http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/ling450ch/reports/arabic.html

    By Nadia Ali (this next chunk is from an article)

    Islamic Art comes from the religion of Islam, which was formed from as long ago as the seventh century in the Middle East. It shows aspects of Islam in art form from metal-works, fabric, pottery, canvas oils and paints through to its impressive writing style or calligraphy. Its use of color and detail presents a picture that not only looks good, but also makes you think and inquire deeper about it. These art forms were encouraged by the Sultans of the time by allowing them to be used in the architecture or buildings of that period. It was further used as decoration and furnishings, which allowed for educational and spiritual purposes. Many of the finest examples of Islamic Art can be seen in Malaysia, via its architecture and picturesque skyline scattered with decorative domes. Here Islamic art is a part of everyday life.

    Islamic Guidelines for Art Forms


    Within the Qur'an, the holy book for Muslims, Islam does not show animals or humans. The reason for this is that Muslims are taught not to hold an image of any living object and associate it to the religion, thus not glorifying idols or objects. Therefore, Islamic art is shown through floral, non-object-related art. A decorative writing style is sometimes used within these pictures showing elaborate Arabic letters or words. Shapes such as squares, triangles, oblongs and circles are also used as an alternative to living objects.

    Islamic Calligraphy

    An important part of Islamic Art is the Arabic language because it is the original language of the Qur'an. Unlike English, Arabic is read from right to left and has 29 letters in its alphabet. It also has small symbols above or below letters to show a short or long vowel. This makes it unique in its form and allows for artistic development. The writing style or mushaf have been improved upon over the years from the cursive styles of Thuluth to angular and even ornate styles. The most modern of the styles is Al-Khat al-hurr, which was developed in the 1980's. It represents a very decorative stylized, free flowing writing. An example of this can be seen at the Islamic Arts and Architecture site listed below. There are forms of Islamic pictures that only contain calligraphy and are still very appealing to the eye. Many of these can be viewed at one of the most magnificent museum collections in Kuala Lumpur at the Islamic Arts Museum. This gallery serves to illustrate the different styles of calligraphic scripts whose words and art are so well formed that it flows into a masterpiece of beauty. At the time when it was being perfected Sultans would have artists decorate mosques, palaces, buildings and walls. Arabic calligraphy is considered to be a very noble art form because of its association with the Qur'an.

    Within the Qur'an, the holy book for Muslims, Islam does not show animals or humans. The reason for this is that Muslims are taught not to hold an image of any living object and associate it to the religion, thus not glorifying idols or objects. Therefore, Islamic art is shown through floral, non-object-related art. A decorative writing style is sometimes used within these pictures showing elaborate Arabic letters or words. Shapes such as squares, triangles, oblongs and circles are also used as an alternative to living objects.

    So we can't just give you a picture or an Islamic Jesus. Islamic art is a little bit more complicated than what you've come to expect. Christian art is easy to recognise, we have carefully groomed images of what our religious figures look like and how they are portrayed. Most religions follow this trend (roman, mayan, hindu). But some "new" religions such as Islam and Buddhism sought to escape this. (Didn't work so well for buddhism... but there are no portrayel's of buddha for several centuries) Islam has managed to keep up this tradition.

    The reason all the examples cited above are middle eastern is because:
    a) It is the place of origin for the religion
    b) historically and presently it has the greatest concentration os muslims.
    c) If you're studying art history, what makes more sense. Studying the art of a particular group at the place where its most common and has shown the most time on the timeline. Or some singular random guy in the boondocks of siberia pumping out art in response to the Q'uran.
    d) the site that was referenced was islamic art in the middle east
    e) and last but not least, there are not many examples of islamic art from further east than India. For many reasons, such as the ones stated above.

    But you want some examples?
    The Taj Mahal in india

    Niu Jie Mosque, Beijing, China
    http://www.islamicity.com/Culture/MOSQUES/Asia/TMp25f.htm

    The Mosque of the immortal Crane, Yangzhou
    http://www.islamicity.com/Culture/MOSQUES/Asia/TMp213d.htm

    Textiles
    http://www.davidmus.dk/islam_coll_en/centralasien02.htm

    A page from a chinese Koran
    http://www.davidmus.dk/islam_coll_en/kina02.htm

    Please note the lack of human/animal images. Also the intracate calligraphy as well as repeating intracate patterns.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2004
  19. Crimson_Scribe Thespian Registered Senior Member

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    "I wonder how much you'd even notice these things if they hadn't been noted as originating from Islamic nations." - Wolf

    Well, given that I'm from what can be considered an Islamic nation (Indonesia has the worlds largest population of Muslims, though Islam is not the state religion), I would think that I would notice these things. Advise: Shut up.
     
  20. slotty Colostomy-its not my bag Registered Senior Member

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    Has their been anything artistic produced by a muslim artist from the middle east, that is in the mainstream that anybody knows of? I don't think i can think of anything apart from bloody great paintings of saddam and that Khomiani bloke from iran. I hardly think that works from 1590 can be considered "Late islamic art" Have'nt they done anything this century?

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  21. nbachris2788 Registered Senior Member

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    Considering that some Muslim countries, like Saudi Arabia and Iran, are under strict theocracies, I do not think art can gush out like spring water from a geyser.
     
  22. cyberia Lounge Act Registered Senior Member

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    169
    well the period we are looking at is what you would technically call "classical Islamic art" or "traditional/cultural islamic art" Since it is tradition based, as well as a general period there is not a whole lot of "new" art. Or if there is it looks alot like the old art. Terms like "Late Islamic art" is relative to their progression as a civilization not to where we are right now. Like impressionism, post impressionism.

    That's like saying
    "great, the sistene chapel, but has anyone done any paintings of god on ceilings recently."

    As for "more mainstream" well world wide, there isn't really a "mainstream" in terms of art anymore there is just so many incredibly talented people. There aren't any Davinci's that just pop-out. There are artists that get recognized and artists who don't. And artists who shouldn't but do. If anything the "mainstream" or art has become the "mainstream". Like movie directors maybe. Maybe when you become a household name? who knows. vs. the renias. where there was court and REALLY REALLY rich people who spent money gratuitously on the arts.

    As Nbach... above me stated its not exactly been a period of free speech and creation. Freedom of expression, and artists such as singers... and well anyone who said anything bad about anything remotely related to the regime tended to be "disapeared" a few days later.

    http://www.pnnonline.org/article.php?sid=4525&mode=thread&order=0
    More modern art (and older stuff too) tends to get looted and/or destroyed in areas of conflict

    This organization might interest anyone looking into contemporary Iraqi artists.
    http://www.incia.co.uk/4556.html
    http://www.incia.co.uk/4613.html <- This is a small sample of their travelling gallery and they recently published a book. If you notice, there are many aspects of traditional art subtly worked in.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2004
  23. StarOfEight A Man of Taste and Decency Registered Senior Member

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    What's the point of this thread, exactly? The Romans produced some of the most amazing architecture in the world; they also crucified thousands. Aesthetics and ethics are two entirely different fields of judgement; they should not be conflated.
     

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