As Longfellow says, Things are not what they seem.• Sirdar Ikbal Ali Shah. "The General Principles of Sufism". From Sufi Thought and Action. Idries Shah, ed. London: Octagon, 1990

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Thanks for that tiassa. thats a big weight off my mind. :bugeye: :p

You'd think so, wouldn't you, P_ete?

But you're wrong.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

So...if things are not what they seem, than that phrase is not what is seems, and what it seems to be is a whole mess of stuff.....but since it seems to be a whole paradox it isn't a paradox...but it seems as if it's not a paradox because it is a paradox because it doesn't seem to be what it seems to be?!

*brains splatter on walls*

Darn you to heck, Tiassa! :p :D

Interesting, isn't it. I think that this single fact is a key issue for everyone. It is so fundamental and troubling that it is rarely discussed. I found a wonderful truth quoted the other day that demonstrates the point "Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt." (Dune the Butlerian Jihad) Taken in context we all become fanatical at some point. Theistic / atheistic, objectivist / subjectivist, deterministic / Indeterministic, empiricist / rationalist, materialist /idealist, etc...

That we cling to our central beliefs so fanatically belies the doubt we all have.

~Raithere

Is that like two doctors that have
contradictory qualities. ;)

From the Tao Te Ching
Mitchell translation

78.

Nothing in the world
is as soft and yielding as water.
Yet for dissolving the hard and inflexible,
nothing can surpass it.

The soft overcomes the hard;
the gentle overcomes the rigid.
Everyone knows this is true,
but few can put it into practice.

Therefore the Master remains
serene in the midst of sorrow.
Evil cannot enter his heart.
Because he has given up helping,
he is people's greatest help.

True words seem paradoxical.

So far none of you have a clue what you're talking about.

You are WRONG.

(bzzzt! Thank you for playing.)

--Tiassa :cool:

Originally posted by tiassa
So far none of you have a clue what you're talking about.First Response:
What you mean to say is that none of us has a clue as to what you are talking about.

Second Response:
Isn't that the point?

Third Response:
Of course things are not what they seem, things are what they are.

~Raithere

P.S. I always found it odd that people expect there to be a 'correct' answer to a koan.

(edited to add third response and post script)

Originally posted by tiassa
So far none of you have a clue what you're talking about.

You are WRONG.

(bzzzt! Thank you for playing.)

--Tiassa :cool: :p Oh yeah? Where's the runner's up prize then? I want my loser prize! :mad: j/k :D

I am wrong. I am not wrong. You are not wrong. But you are wrong. Is this what you meant? :confused:

Maybe by "things", Tiassa meant physical objects? Which would be completely correct, because things as we see them are different in everyone's eyes...

Oh well you can't win them all. :D

Although this might be regarded as a clueless comment and set
myself up for further comment on my cluelessness, I will throw
caution to the wind and state that (IMO) "A Psalm Of Life" is a
great poem by Longfellow. I also enjoy the poetry of Rumi.

RaithereFirst Response:
What you mean to say is that none of us has a clue as to what you are talking about.

Second Response:
Isn't that the point?First question? Does the second response pertain to the first response or the assertion that things are not what they seem.

If it pertains to the first point, yes, you win a prize.

EvilPoet

Rumi is quite compelling.

BlueSoulRobot

I believe such speculations can be fun. And I do not object to them. While there is, technically, no wrong answer in the grand scheme of life, I must maintain my position here that you're wrong.

In General

I'll go ahead and escalate it a little wit two clues:

• Yes, I'm enjoying this tremendously.
• I'm wondering how long before someone actually figures it out. It will happen, eventually.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Edit to fix tags.

Well, things seem fairly crappy, so I'm fairly thankful.

Good outlook, Walker. I shan't argue.

(I am obliged, having advised other people, however, to advise you that, while I appreciate the concept and even agree with it, it is wrong in the sense that it is irrelevant.)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

But if reality is a facade, so is this thread. And, incidentally, so are we.

Walker

Almost worth giving the grand prize for that one. Good show.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Originally posted by tiassa
First question? Does the second response pertain to the first response or the assertion that things are not what they seem.

If it pertains to the first point, yes, you win a prize.Actually, it was in response to your reply "So far none of you have a clue what you're talking about."

~Raithere

Wow, it's heating up. Two people getting close.

There is an essential question to be considered as well: Why?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

"You cannot see the back of your own head, no matter how
intently you stare into the mirror or how quickly you turn around.
Even the most clear-sighted have blind spots. These places to
which we ourselves are blind are often astonishingly visible to
others. The sword of self-knowledge, the ability to see oneself
clearly, spans the abyss of ignorance. Below its stretched length
blaze the swirling fires of ego while fogs of delusion and self-
deception flow from every side." -Essential Sufism

"A donkey with a load of holy books is still a donkey."
-Traditional (Essential Sufism)

So it should be why things are not the way they seem?

...Because we're dumb animals?
.....Because we don't smoke enough weed?
........Because we are so caught up in our own little realities inside our head that should we ever come up for air our minds would explode at the idea of enlightenment?
..........Because what we see is what we get, and what we get is limited by our blindness caused by the fact that we are trapped within our own minds?

There is an essential question to be considered as well: Why?
No, Tiassa sorry but you are wrong. This question need not be considered. In fact, no question needs considering for things are not what they seem.

:eek:

No, Tiassa sorry but you are wrong. This question need not be considered. In fact, no question needs considering for things are not what they seem.Actually, I think I'm right. After all, you have no idea what you're talking about.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Well, it sure seems that way...

It's not that you or anyone else isn't right. Well, a couple of people I've told they're wrong, but aside from that ...

You may well have the right answer.

To a different issue.

That's all it is, because you are correct in the statement that no question needs answering because things are not what they seem. But that answer works for a different question.

"Purple", for instance, is a perfectly fine answer. But what if the question is "Which way do I turn to get to the store?"

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Things are not what they seem.

*ponders briefly* Huh. Whaddaya know about that?

I'm not actually confused, I just seem confused.

I also seem a bit too lazy to give it more than that. :D

(I'm inclined to just simply say, "That's because we create our own realities, duh.", but that's just too easy.)

Technically I'm running out of patience with this topic, but namely because it grates my nerves to treat people this way. For the most part, people are doing fine. In that respect, I've also received an unintended pleasure from this topic.

I will probably break sometime today or tomorrow, and let everyone in on what I'm doing.

In the meantime, excellent points.

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

Originally posted by tiassa
There is an essential question to be considered as well: Why?Well, I'm trying to follow your path on this. I do still think my first point was relevant but it was obviously not what you were aiming at.

So how's this answer:

Because we're looking into a mirror.

~Raithere

Originally posted by tiassa
Technically I'm running out of patience with this topic, but namely because it grates my nerves to treat people this way. For the most part, people are doing fine. In that respect, I've also received an unintended pleasure from this topic.

I will probably break sometime today or tomorrow, and let everyone in on what I'm doing. Aww, come now, this is fun.

~Raithere

way more convenient to accept that things are more or less as they appear.

"Things are not what they seem;
Nor are they otherwise."
-- Lankavatara Sutra

http://www.geocities.com/unibuds.geo/sacca/may_2000/LighterSide.htm

:)

Here is the whole sutra:

http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/GrPhil/EPhil/Lanka.htm


This is my favorite sutra:

http://www.drba.org/heart_sutra_e.htm

Short, to the point, explains everything.

"Shariputra, form does not differ from emptiness; emptiness does not differ from form. Form itself is emptiness; emptiness itself is form. "

"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe

The pursuit of the material is a vain thing. As Longfellow says:

"Things are not what they seem."• See topic post for source reference.

Thought I'd let y'all in on a little something about what you're trying to talk about.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

PS on Edit: Raithere, you're right, it is kind of fun. I thought it might be interesting to show a little more of the source, though. Dollars to donuts, though, that people will still miss.

"Everything is meaningless," says the Teacher, "utterly
meaningless!" What do people get for all their hard work?
Generations come and go, but nothing really changes. The sun
rises and sets and hurries around to rise again. The wind blows
south and north, here and there, twisting back and forth, getting
nowhere. The rivers run into the sea, but the sea is never full.
Then the water returns again to the rivers and flows again to the
sea. Everything is so weary and tiresome! No matter how much
we see, we are never satisfied. No matter how much we hear,
we are not content. History merely repeats itself. It has all been
done before. Nothing under the sun is truly new.
-Ecclesiastes 1:2-9 (NLT)

"No one can serve two masters; for either he will
hate the one and love the other, or else he will be
loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot
serve God and mammon." -Matthew 6:24 (NKJV)

Galatians 2:6
As for those who seemed to be important–whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance–those men added nothing to my message.

2 Corinthians 4:18
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

There is no Death! What seems so is transition;
This life of mortal breath
Is but a suburb of the life elysian,
Whose portal we call Death.
-Longfellow, Resignation

As far as I can see, there has yet to be a question asked, how are all of you coming up with answers, and being judged whether you are right or wrong? You are answering nothing.....

HockeywingsAs far as I can see, there has yet to be a question asked, how are all of you coming up with answers, and being judged whether you are right or wrong? You are answering nothing.....Well, that establishes how they're wrong, doesn't it? The degree of presumption is amusing to me, and nearly shocking.

Jenyar2 Corinthians 4:18
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.A red rose absorbs all colours but red; red is therefore the one colour that it is not. (Perdurabo, Psalm 40, The Himog (http://www.drizzle.com/~slmndr/uncle_al/lies/43.html))


thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Originally posted by spookz
way more convenient to accept that things are more or less as they appear.

do you mean to say you find this quote presumptuous and shocking?

:)

out with it tiassa
the anticipation is killing me

That can also include this thread. Which so far
seems pretty absurd and pointless. Or is it?
Perhaps this thread is not what it seems. ;)

"Objects in the mirror are closer then they appear" - quote from the anoyumous person who typed it up and printed it out on little clear stickers and place them statregically on every car mirror to teach us a life lesson.

Exploring a theme is a lot more satisfactory than arguing about it.


A red rose absorbs all colours but red; red is therefore the one colour that it is not.
Tiassa,
But it is still a rose - the truth doesn't change.

Do you believe what you see, or what you know? Which is more true? When I see a red rose, I know what I see and why. You see everything except God. What do you see, and why?

Exploring a theme is a lot more satisfactory than arguing about it.I shan't argue this point. However, I find it highly amusing that so little of what people are exploring has anything to do with the theme of the topic they think they're exploring.But it is still a rose - the truth doesn't change.It's only a rose because we agree that the definition of "rose" describes a rose. However, this is not a vital part of the point.Do you believe what you see, or what you know? Which is more true? When I see a red rose, I know what I see and why. You see everything except God. What do you see, and why?I find it interesting that we classify things by what they are not. We praise the beauty of the red rose, yet red is its refuse; we praise the beauty of the refuse of the rose.

As for God--what I see and hear of God is actually not God. What people praise is actually not God.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Specifically, I find the degree of presumption to be shocking.

And the presumption is part of the point.

Everybody's just spouting off, and while much of it is useful in other contexts, the fact remains that demonstrably, most don't have a clue what they're talking about. A couple of people have hit close, but not close enough.

The original point was small. I'm just enjoying the rest of it.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

oh ok!!
lemme bash my nut on the brickwall and see if things improve

ps: i must warn you the peasants are restless and are starting to circle the castle

:D

I have somewhere, in Idries Shah's Dervish Tales, a footnote about a Sufi master whose reputation preceded him at a fight in present-day Kazakhstan. Unfortunately, the volume is elsewhere, and I cannot recall his name specifically.

Nonetheless, as the Mongols (I believe) prepared to invade the city, word was sent ahead to the master that he would be allowed safe passage from the city in honor or his stature and value to humanity. He declined, choosing to stand with his neighbors, and was later accounted for directly among the 425,000 dead. I must find a record of this battle; it sounds incredible. Alas, I must track down another copy of Shah's book to have a starting place.

Nonetheless, when one seeks to build the shining City on the Hill, one must be prepared to go down in flames.

And for the record, Spookz, you're doing fine. Seriously. I'm just being exceptionally particular about this topic.

I've said before that "Life is _____".

That's actually a huge hint, but only in its own way. As much as I enjoy being cryptic, it's also a functional benefit of this topic. The end point is actually neutral, but nut-smashing is kind of an unfortunate side effect of communicating in this way.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Is the answer "Luxemburger Queen, he's a burger queen"?

Originally posted by tiassa
Specifically, I find the degree of presumption to be shocking.You are, of course, including your own presumptions in this judgment; right?

And the presumption is part of the point.Its all presumption… well, almost all of it.

Everybody's just spouting off, and while much of it is useful in other contexts, the fact remains that demonstrably, most don't have a clue what they're talking about.It’s only the unfortunate few who don’t have a clue as to what they’re talking about…
the rest of us just don’t understand what you’re talking about.
Of course, I already said this.

A couple of people have hit close, but not close enough.Mu

~Raithere

Let me make an auspicious presumtion.

'Things are not what they seem'

'things(reality) are not what they seem (are not what we presume)' So why am I still making presumptions?

Rrrgh ... withdrawn.

--Tiassa :cool:

because you are human.

Originally posted by pumpkinsaren'torange
because you are human.

Somehow I've never felt quite human. :D

Things are not what they seem...I thought that was a Twin Peaks quote, they are showing it again on tv here...that's how educated I am..:D
If thing are not what they seem, then they must be exactly what they seem..or?

Seems like Twin Peaks got cancelled...does that mean it's still on?

BTW, Lynch directed a preganancy test commercial that aired during that show...it was pretty good.

All the claptrap herein peddled;
rowing boats in gentle stream
I'll look you up when dust has settled
to hear your disappointed scream

I win.

... and the map is not the territory. ;)