I moved some posts from "Who was Jesus talking to when he said..." to a new thread here because John started another subject altogether, i.e., he thinks that there has never existed Sun worship on Earth.
/Avatar/

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M*W: To whom was Jesus talking when he allegedly cried out from the cross in Greek, no less, and said, "Eli, eli, lama sabachtheni?" (My god, my god, why have you forsaken me?)

Let me explain... "El" is a shortened form of "Elias," the sun god "Helios," to whom Jesus called out from the cross. "El" is the sun. The "Elohim" also represents the many stars. Also known as the "Ali," who were associated with gods. "Ali" is Egyptian in origin and represents the "Atum," "Aten," and the "Amen," who are all part of "Elohim." "Atum" was later known as "Adam."

Jesus, as the sun of god, was crying out to his heavenly father/creator god, the sun, "Eli" and/or "Helios" who had abandoned him on the cross that day. Then the skies grew dark and stormy as the sun set behind the earth and died.

First we need to cosider the fact that without the Sun there would be no life, this is a simple fact of nature. However, this can be said about many things such as water, throughout human history we have always been very aware of this. Yet we dont claim that water was once worshipped, for anyone to say 'Sun, Sun why have you forsaken me' at the moment of death is far fetched and would indicate very low IQ. As a matter of fact it is hard to believe a human under any circumstances would say such a thing. It is like looking at an egg and saying 'why have you forsaken me'.

Humans identify with humans and to a lesser extent other living creatures. The Sun is an object but has no characteristics humans would identify with. I doubt that the Sun was ever worshipped at all, more than likely this stems from a misunderstanding of ancient people and ancient art which draws some amazing conclusions. We can look at artifacts and can claim to know more from them but we dont, whatever makes us feel better i guess.

The moral of the story is just because we read about things and see it in movies does not make it true. Of course i am fairly certain i know why it was said but our civilization is not ready to know this- absolute truth. I just dont know what kind of effect it would have.

I doubt that the Sun was ever worshipped at all

Wow, you don't know about heliolatry?

Wow, you don't know about heliolatry?

It is impossible to worship something that cannot respond in any way whatsoever, it is like worshipping a Maseratti. If people worship the Sun and equate it with life they can just as well worship bacteria.

It is impossible to worship something that cannot respond in any way whatsoever, it is like worshipping a Maseratti. If people worship the Sun and equate it with life they can just as well worship bacteria.

Nevertheless it was done.

The sun looks more magnificent and because of its energy and gravitational force there is life on this planet what can not be said about bacteria.

Your claim that people didn't worship the Sun is uneducated at best. I've just returned from a festival where ancient baltic hymns to the Sun were sung.

The sun looks more magnificent and because of its energy and gravitational force there is life on this planet what can not be said about bacteria.

Your claim that people didn't worship the Sun is uneducated at best. I've just returned from a festival where ancient baltic hymns to the Sun were sung.

Oh, excuse me you went to a festival anf got educated.

Just because it 'looks magnificent' does not change the fact that it is no more important to human existence than bacteria. Without bacteria we would not survive more than a few hours.

Oli - Nevertheless it was done.

I think we make more of it being done then it actually was. And of course who does not like the Sun?:rolleyes:

Oh, excuse me you went to a festival anf got educated.
Just because it 'looks magnificent' does not change the fact that it is no more important to human existence than bacteria. Without bacteria we would not survive more than a few hours.
None of which was known back then.

Oh, excuse me you went to a festival anf got educated.

Just because it 'looks magnificent' does not change the fact that it is no more important to human existence than bacteria. Without bacteria we would not survive more than a few hours.

Oli -

I think we make more of it being done then it actually was.

1. That was an example that proves the point.
2. Sun is more important to the existence of life on this planet. It's simple cosmology, not even biology.

1. That was an example that proves the point.
2. Sun is more important to the existence of life on this planet. It's simple cosmology, not even biology.

You are wrong. No one thing is more important than another essential element for providing life.

You know what the problem is? Intellectual dishonesty.

If in the distant future a few artifact from our civilization reamain and one is the a copy of the Beatles - 'Here come the sun' recording will that be enough to conclude that we worship the sun? It is no different than what you are doing.

I refuse further conversation on this subject with you because you're so dumb my head hurts.

The Sun holds this little planet in place, kid, without it Earth would be a dead rock probably spinning into some black hole. No, not even that, without the Sun there would have been no Earth in the first place.

The Sun holds this little planet in place, kid, without it Earth would be a dead rock probably spinning into some black hole. No, not even that, without the Sun there would have been no Earth in the first place.

Yes, good plan, there.

Here are some good articles for you to read:

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_bacteria.html
http://www.actionbioscience.org/biodiversity/wassenaar.html

I have concluded that perceived 'Sun Worship' is a straw man, a figment of imagination and overactive fantasy. It is quite possible ancient people did not even know life could not exist without the sun but they sure knew they would not survive without food and water. So maybe the worshipped a river or a food source for that matter.

Yes, good plan, there.

he he he, funny.:)

Indeed, some rivers were also worshipped. Indian Ganges is a goddess, for example. There were many sea and ocean spirits. In Greek mythology Ocean is a god.
In ancient Egypt floods were seen as a holy act of god.

Without the Sun there is no warmth, no plants grow and there is starvation and suffering. You don't have to be an expert to see how important is the Sun to life.

p.s. I laugh in the general direction of your conclusion.

Avatar, many objects are elevated to high status for whatever reason. Festivals, clebrations or ceremonies incorporate this folk art form of 'worship'.

I know that from the first time breath was drawn by a human he looked up towards the sky for a living entity, a creator. They didnt look up at another rock and say 'ewww wonder what it is thinking'.

I have concluded that perceived 'Sun Worship' is a straw man, a figment of imagination and overactive fantasy.
Which just goes to show how little you actually know.

In Latvia we had a huge rock called Staburags that was seen as a spirit and a meeting place for the gods. Unfortunately now it's under water.

Which just goes to show how little you actually know.


Agreed

Which just goes to show how little you actually know.

How did you conclude that ancient people worshipped the sun? NOT appreciated it or recognized its importance, actual full out worship.

My main objective is to point out M*W's innacurate deduction that any person in the last minutes of life would wonder why the SUN would foresake them. Wholly illogical.

History lessons, anthropology, the usual.
It's called an education (look the word up on-line).
There were a number of civilisations that practised sun worship and deified the sun (and moon).

History lessons, anthropology, the usual.
It's called an education (look the word up on-line).
There were a number of civilisations that practised sun worship and deified the sun (and moon).

Give specifics, a cave drawing of a big ball in the sky means shit. Modern people who go out in the sun for a tan are calle what??? SUN WORSHIPPERS.

Cave drawing?
My you are uneducated aren't you?
Ra (eqypt - no caves but buildings) was a sun god.
Mithras was a sun god.
Helios/ Phaeton was a sun god.
Sol Invictus was a sun god.


Ancient observatory lights up history of solar worship

Solar power ruled American politics millennia ago, says Roger Highfield

The 13 Towers of Chankillo are part of a 2,300-year-old ceremonial complex in Peru that suggests sun worship dates back thousands of years earlier in that region than thought.

Solar calendars and sun cults were an important part of indigenous American culture, from the Hopi to the Inca sun temple in Cusco, Peru.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/connected/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=A1&xml=/connected/2007/03/02/nscience102.xml

Ever tried something called google?

Education as it realtes to this subject is relative to who is telling the story, this is not technical skill.

You are naive, but the reality is much more is made of this than is even remotely true.

Tell me everything about worshippers of Mithras and how you know even the most remote thing about them. The sun was never worshipped in any way that we equate religious worship to. Name one person who believed that the sun was responsible for creation of life, not sustaining life but creating life.

And do not make assumptions on my education, just because i dont believe what you do.

Sun worship
(written by Dr. F. J. Los, reprinted from "The Northlaender")

The sun has been revered as a deity by a variety of peoples. However, it is clear that it was not only as a beneficial, but also as a dreaded and destructive power, that this heavenly body was adored in hot countries. So in ancient Egypt the sun god Rah (or Amon-Rah)was represented by a man bearing a sun disc on his head, which was surmounted by the Uraeus-snake. The reptile symbolizing the withering effect of the sun often has been used in the Near East. Quite different was the situation in Central and Northern Europe, where a sufficient amount of sunshine was essential for the ripening of crops. Here the sun was worshipped as a beneficial power as soon as agriculture became the principal means of support during the Neolithic period (+/- 4000 - 2000 BCI).

Consequently it was the ancient Indogermans, originally centered in the basin of the Danube, who spread its cult throughout Europe and even into other parts of the world. How firmly the befief in the creative power of the sun was rooted in the minds of these early Nordics becomes clear when we look at the ruins of the biggest megatithic monuments of Northern Europe, the sun sanctuary of Stonehenge.

Of course it is unnecessary here to desctibe in detail this gigantic monument the remains of which command, since prehistoric times, the Salisbury Plain in Southern England. The visitor wonders how it was possible to transport and set up the enormous blocks of stone the majority of which had been hewn, as modern research has proven, from the rocks of the Prescelly Chain in South Wales, a distance of 274 km measured along the overland route that was in all probability followed. What people erected this imposing monument and what was its purpose?

The scientific investigation of its ruins, which was carried through in recent times, has made it possible to answer both questions. The sanctuary was undoubtedly dedicated to the worship of the Sun as is proven by the fact that the line from the middle of the so-called "altar stone", lying in its center, to the "Hele Stone" at the entrance, is directed to the point in the NE where the sun rose on midsummer day.

According to the archaeologists there were three building periods, the first of which is dated by means of a radio-carbon test, at about 1840 BCI. Recently a number of drawings of Mycenean daggers and flanged axes were detected on some of the stones, and it is supposed that the final completion of the sanctuary, about 1700 BCI, took place under the direction of an architect from the Greek town of Mycenae.

However, its construction is ascribed to the so-called Bellbeaker Folk whose graves, known as the 'round barrows', abound in the vicinity of the monument.

This people whose original habitat lay in Central Spain spread over Europe at the beginning of the second millennium BCI, diffusing at the same time the knowledge of the first metals: copper and bronze. They reached Britain in two successive waves, the first coming from the Netherlands, the second from the western parts of Germany (about 1700 BCI).

In both countries they had mixed with elements of another people, the Indogermanic (Indo-European) Battle Axe People, whose original fatherland lay in Saxony and Thuringia. The amalgamation of both peoples makes understandable why the skeletons which have been unearthed from the round barrows belong partly to the Faelian, partly to the Nordic type, and why copper daggers as well as stone hammers were found in them.

That it was the Nordic element of the Beaker Folk that introduced the worship of the sun in Britain is admitted by one leading English archaeologist in the forllowing words: "So it was the strong Indo-European element infused into our Beaker culture by the Battle Axe Warriors which gave its religion this skyward trend. We are witnessing the triumph of a more barbaric Zeus over the ancient Earth Mother dear to the Neolithic peasantry, the goddess whom they had brought with them from the centers of her fertile power in the Mediterranean and the Near East. "

To make it clear that this replacement of one religion by another was the consequence, not of a gradual evolution, but of an invasion, we must cast a glance at the Scandinavia of the Bronze Age. There, on the rock engravings of Bohuslan in Southern Sweden, are to be seen ships bearing a sun disc and manned by men who swing battle axes; winged horses, concentric circles, spirals, wheel crosses and other symbols of the sun can also be seen.

The horses are destined to pull the sun chariot along the sky in day time, which reminds us of the ancient myth of Phaeton; a ship was thought to transport the sun through the underworld back to the East at night. A slightly different version of the same idea is well-known from the Norse legends.

To the same Nordic culture belong bronze razors adorned with a sun wheel or the head of a horse. From a later phase of the Bronze Age dates the famoussun chariot of Trundholm, a magnificent testimony to the artistic taste and professional skill of the old Nordics.

With all the Indogermanic peoples we find at the dawn of history the worship of heaven gods: Dyas piter with the Aryan Indians, Ahura mazda with the Persians, Papios with the Scythians, Zeus with the Germans and Dasjbog with the Slavs. However, the Greek Phoibos Apollo (i.e. "the radiant" Apollo), the Roman Sol invictus (the unconquered sun) and the Persian and Mitannian Mithra(s) remained genuine sun gods. The anthropomorphic (humanized) character these gods had assumed in the course of time is a late development which might be considered a degeneration.

How far the sun worship had spread during the Bronze Age becomes clear when we look at three countries that lie far apart: Peru, Egypt and Palestine. In the empire of the Inca's the sun was adored in the form of a golden disc, surrounded by beams. Its principal festival was that of the winter solstice, on June 21.

The Incas (which were an aristocratic leading class among the mongolian American Indians) are described by a Spanish author as of a white complexion with hair that was as blond as ripened wheat. Of one of their forbears, Vicacocha Inca, who was described as a blond and bearded man of white complexion, the first Spaniards were told that he had conquered the land coming from the North, and later fled overseas having suffered a crushing defeat. According to Thor Heyerdahl, he reached Polynesia where ancient legends speak of him as Kon-Tiki. All these facts and many more make it possible that sun worship was imported into Peru by immigrants from Europe.

We know today that not only the Vikings reached America before Columbus, but that also many years previous peoples from North Africa (ruled and occupied by a Nordic upper class) could cross the ocean in primitive but sea-worthy vessels.

With regard to Egypt it is generally known that the pharaoh Amenophis IV (1375-1358 BCI) tried to introduce a monotheistic religion by declaring the sun god Aten the only god, while he renamed himself Akhenaten (i.e. glory of the sun disc). The historians usually omit the fact that this pharaoh was in all probability, just as his father Amenophis III, the son of a Mitannian princess as in portraits he appears as a Nordic.

The Mitanni were ati Aryan people who had founded a mighty empire in Northern Syria. Also in this case the connection between culture and race is apparent. Another religious reform, but in the opposite direction, was carried through in 622 BC in the kingdom of Judah by King Josias. Among other cults, sun wlorship was suppressed by him in a barbaric and bloody manner. It is very remarkable when we read in II Kings 23:11 "And he took away the horses that the kings of Judah had given to the sun... and burned the chariot of the sun with fire". Does not this text remind us of the sun chariot of Trundholm?

Sun worship belongs to the sunken world of the Northern Bronze Age, the culture that was destroyed by the nature catastrophes of about 1220 BCI. With the Indogermanic religions of later times it has in common its character of nature worship. To the elrements of the former cult that submerged into christianization among the Teutons belong the feasts of the summer and winter solstices, but also a number of symbols such as the wheel cross and the swastika. It may be that the christian mode of praying with closed eyes is atso a relic of the religion of our forbears as it is impossible to look at the sun with your eyes fully open.

So in ancient Egypt the sun god Rah (or Amon-Rah)was represented by a man bearing a sun disc on his head

Believe what you want, human nature has not changed. If you are going to draw conclusions from ancient coins and drawings then go right ahead.

I stand by this assertion:

The sun was never worshipped in any way that we equate religious worship to. Name one person who believed that the sun was responsible for creation of life, not sustaining life but creating life.

Tell me everything about worshippers of Mithras and how you know even the most remote thing about them. The sun was never worshipped in any way that we equate religious worship to. Name one person who believed that the sun was responsible for creation of life, not sustaining life but creating life.

I don't even want to know what you equate with religious worship.

By the way you don't need to believe that a particular god created life in order to worship it.

Zalktis, a latvian snake god, was worshipped as the god of secrets, wisdom and magic, Laima was worshipped as the goddess of luck and fate (still is worshipped, by some by the way), Pērkons was worshipped as the god of war and was associated with victory over enemy and dark forces, Saule was the goddess Sun and there are many hymns dedicated to her.

If you think that worship means putting two hands together and praying for life after death... :rolleyes:

You are naive, but the reality is much more is made of this than is even remotely true.
Wrong, on both counts.

Tell me everything about worshippers of Mithras and how you know even the most remote thing about them.
Riiight - I paid for my education, why should you get it for free?

The sun was never worshipped in any way that we equate religious worship to.
Incorrect - most religions started out as sun worship and evolved.

Name one person who believed that the sun was responsible for creation of life, not sustaining life but creating life.
Name one person?
You're joking right?

And do not make assumptions on my education, just because i dont believe what you do.
I'm not making assumptions based on a difference in belief: I'm judging it on your statements here.

I see what's going on here.

Avatar, Alabaster, Oli....
http://tn3-1.deviantart.com/300W/images3.deviantart.com/i/2004/111/0/e/Don__t_feed_the_Troll.jpg

Because that's exactly what you're doing, John. Trolling. I'm still sitting here dumbfounded that you actually think that there has been NO sun worship anywhere in the history of humanity.

I guess every single website I found in this search is full of shit?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=sun+worship

What part about the Egyptians worshipping Ra, Helios and Mithra (which have all been historically documented and PROVEN) seems to have escaped your perception? They aren't the only civilization that has worshipped the sun, either.

The sun was never worshipped in any way that we equate religious worship to. Name one person who believed that the sun was responsible for creation of life, not sustaining life but creating life.
Oh dear.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/jeanmichel_severino/2006/12/cultivating_energy.html
The ancient Egyptians and the Incas practiced a religion of the Sun, believing it to be at the beginning of all life on Earth.
In other words, they believed it to be the creation of life on earth.

how about all the greek writings about apollo? or is that not enough for you - just because it doesn't seem scientifically logical to you doesn't mmean it wasn't done - this is religion we are talking about.

If you were looking for something to worship and you didn't have any real education about the earth then you'd probably choose the big molten ball in the sky that keeps you warm and lights up the sorroundings. there are plenty of ancient scripts referring to sun gods and the worship of them, just look at the bloody aztec artifacts- i understand where you are coming from with the argument that it was scientifically logical, but thats not going to affect someones choice with the education of a caveman.

Lets not forget Amun, the sun god worshipped by Akhenaten.

It is impossible to worship something that cannot respond in any way whatsoever, it is like worshipping a Maseratti. ....
On the contrary, that makes it even more mysterious. God doesn't respond in any way whatsoever, but that hasn't stopped Christians/Jews/Muslims from worshipping it.

how about all the greek writings about apollo? or is that not enough for you - just because it doesn't seem scientifically logical to you doesn't mmean it wasn't done - this is religion we are talking about.

If you were looking for something to worship and you didn't have any real education about the earth then you'd probably choose the big molten ball in the sky that keeps you warm and lights up the sorroundings. there are plenty of ancient scripts referring to sun gods and the worship of them, just look at the bloody aztec artifacts- i understand where you are coming from with the argument that it was scientifically logical, but thats not going to affect someones choice with the education of a caveman.

I dont know what your referrance to apollo has to do with this discussion. And i have no doubt there were isolated groups that have worshipped the sun as a god\entity and to this day there may even be some. What I am saying is that the significance of this is way overstated and simplisitic. The SUN was and still is divine in nature, to humans obviously it would be. But it was NEVER the figurehead of any religion and certainly not to Romans or Rome proper. All entities posessing divinity are ORGANIC - derived from living organisms.

On the contrary, that makes it even more mysterious. God doesn't respond in any way whatsoever, but that hasn't stopped Christians/Jews/Muslims from worshipping it.

How do you know there is NEVER a response?

A miracle, derived from the old Latin word miraculum meaning "something wonderful", is a striking interposition of divine intervention by God in the universe by which the ordinary course and operation of Nature is overruled, suspended, or modified.

This part is significant:

The ordinary course and operation of Nature is overruled, suspended, or modified.

This has been known to happen, but if you mean turning pennies into nickels then no that will not happen.

mikenostic,

i dont care what your google links say. There are also 2,890,000 Google hits for the word snot.

Hey, I thought I added a good opinion to this thread, and it seems it has been deleted. What is going on? People curse and swear and I can't speak about my views on this matter?

Don't feel bad , I too had my post deleted because I was trying to add some humorous things to this thread about the sun.

How do you know there is NEVER a response?
The same way you know there is never a response from the Sun.

These things have nothing to do with Comparative Religion, it doesn't discuss whether some god is real or not, you can do that in the Religion section.
Hey, I thought I added a good opinion to this thread, and it seems it has been deleted. What is going on? People curse and swear and I can't speak about my views on this matter?
Personal beliefs are not discussed here.
I had let your post stay, but Oli responded to it, so I deleted them both, because a theological discourse had started.
Besides your post was preaching creatonism and called followers of some mythologies more ignorant than followers of other mythology, i.e., Christianity.

Mild swearing is traditionally allowed on Sciforums if it comes together with a valid argument. Sometimes even without any argument.

If you have any complains, please take them to the Your Feedback thread in this subforum, or to Site Feedback subforum, or directly to admin Plazma Inferno,
or you can also send me a PM asking for a particular explanation.

looks like someone was lonely and just needed an argument

why is it so hard to believe we used once(or still do) worship the sun? its the only thing in our plain sight that has so much energy and changes the "mood" of the earth. The water and bacteria may be worshipped but they are all on earth, and we usually look up to get answers. I applaud your quest to look beyond, but until further notice.. its just the way we humans are...

if you have any sources that are different, its just fanatics looking for something more when there really isnt anything else... don't be one..

if you have any sources that are different, its just fanatics looking for something more when there really isnt anything else... don't be one..

POssibly you are not familiar with John. It is a while since I have had anything to do with him, but memories are filtering back up from the depths about him being impermeable to logic or evidence. A quick scan of this thread will show that this is indeed the case.

mikenostic,

i dont care what your google links say. There are also 2,890,000 Google hits for the word snot.

John, you can 'not care what my google links say', all you want. It still doesn't remove the fact that you have been proven wrong, and not just by me. And not caring also doesn't keep the information in 'my google links' from being factual.

And, those google links don't belong to me btw. I just used a bit of researching ability and found them.

looks like someone was lonely and just needed an argument

why is it so hard to believe we used once(or still do) worship the sun? its the only thing in our plain sight that has so much energy and changes the "mood" of the earth. The water and bacteria may be worshipped but they are all on earth, and we usually look up to get answers. I applaud your quest to look beyond, but until further notice.. its just the way we humans are...

if you have any sources that are different, its just fanatics looking for something more when there really isnt anything else... don't be one..

I am not lonely at all, though i do not have anyone to talk to about stuff like this, i like to debate but i am not the one being hostile here. I believe what I have posted to be accurate, ancient belief systems were more sophisticated than they are given credit and this coincides with my belief that human intelligence\ability has not changed only advancements. AND i can prove it too.

its just fanatics looking for something more when there really isnt anything else

yes, looking for something more when there isn't, perfect description. Exactly what i have been saying.

It is impossible to worship something that cannot respond in any way whatsoever, it is like worshipping a Maseratti.Huh? At least the sun is real and can affect people even if it doesn't exactly respond to their entreaties. People worship gods and those can't affect anyone because they are totally imaginary. What matters is that they believe that the object of their worship can respond. Isn't that what religion is all about: faith rather than empirical observation?

What's the qualitative difference between worshiping the sun and believing it will respond by giving you a bountiful harvest, and worshiping a supernatural creature and believing it will respond by giving you a bountiful harvest?

Isn't that what religion is all about: faith rather than empirical observation?


Actually many religious people base their beliefs on experience and intuition: meditators, contemplators, shamans, mystics refer to experiences of deities and other kinds of beings, have conversations with them, find advice and other kinds of knowledge useful, compare information and knowledge gained with both internal and external experiences, debate/argue/question/implore/challenge God or gods or other (not usually accepted by scientists) entities, compare experiences with other practitioners, check results of following advice and so on. The very strange and distracting concept of faith is certainly the basis of some people's beliefs systems. But religious belief is, thank God, not limited to them. Just as there are very few people who actually understand Relativity, Evolution and certainly QM and most 'rationalists' take these ideas to some degree on intuitive trust in certain authorities, so most religious people just listen to authority. (And by the way, I do believe in Einstein's theories being accurate and applicable and so also Evolution - with provisos that it include punctuated equilibria and some of the more recent theories that stress symbiosis and cooperation far more than the older ones. QM I can understand portions of, but I would have a very hard time judging the proof of or really understanding all the steps in the proofs. My point with this digression is 1) I am not a denier of Science 2) I think much belief in scientific theories is not based on experience or rational understanding but either on trust in authority and/or intuitive grasp of the general thrust of certain ideas that 'feel' right. I do feel most skeptics should acknowledge that very few people actually understand the 'right' beliefs and that their beliefs should also be called in to questions for the same reasons rationalists and athiests call into question the beliefs of religious people.

John, are you aware of the Greek mythology surrounding Persephonie(?sp).

The ancients knew the days grew shorter in the winter and they also knew the winter was colder and a crummy season to grow things in. It didn't take a genius among them to figure out more sun meant more food which meant more life. That was something definitely worth worshiping. They revered it in different ways as their cultures were all different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_deity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios


Common Native American morning prayer: roughed up and Englished:

Go to a water source before sunrise. As it rises, thank it for rising, and the for the day ahead. Thank the great spirit for all of his gifts. Give offerings.


the evidence seems to disagree with your belief, John99

the evidence seems to disagree with your belief, John99

I think much has been taken for granted and exaggerated. Since there are NO actual accounts this seems plausible.

Even in your example:

Common Native American morning prayer: roughed up and Englished:

Go to a water source before sunrise. As it rises, thank it for rising, and the for the day ahead. Thank the great spirit for all of his gifts. Give offerings.


the evidence seems to disagree with your belief, John99

All I am saying is that the sun is a representation of a GOD and in some cases the creator. REP RE SEN TA TION.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huitzilopochtli

And i did not start this thread Avatar started it.

In some cases that does seem to be true: that the sun was a representation of the god in question, and not the god himself.

However, there are other cases, such as in the prayer I provided, and in the example of Egyptian worship of the Sun-disk Amun, where worship is specifically directed at the sun itself.

In the Native American prayer, the person is speaking and thanking the sun directly every day for its light and warmth. They also thank the Great Mystery/Spirit/Creator/Breath-That-Moves-Through-All-Things, but the sun doesn't represent it. They are distinct entities.

Or are you suggesting that as soon as the sun is given a human name, then worship to the name is no longer sun worship? Instead just worship to a god represented by the sun?

I moved some posts from "Who was Jesus talking to when he said..." to a new thread here because John started another subject altogether, i.e., he thinks that there has never existed Sun worship on Earth.
/Avatar/



First we need to cosider the fact that without the Sun there would be no life, this is a simple fact of nature. However, this can be said about many things such as water, throughout human history we have always been very aware of this. Yet we dont claim that water was once worshipped, for anyone to say 'Sun, Sun why have you forsaken me' at the moment of death is far fetched and would indicate very low IQ. As a matter of fact it is hard to believe a human under any circumstances would say such a thing. It is like looking at an egg and saying 'why have you forsaken me'.

Humans identify with humans and to a lesser extent other living creatures. The Sun is an object but has no characteristics humans would identify with. I doubt that the Sun was ever worshipped at all, more than likely this stems from a misunderstanding of ancient people and ancient art which draws some amazing conclusions. We can look at artifacts and can claim to know more from them but we dont, whatever makes us feel better i guess.

The moral of the story is just because we read about things and see it in movies does not make it true. Of course i am fairly certain i know why it was said but our civilization is not ready to know this- absolute truth. I just dont know what kind of effect it would have.

Sun was worshipped, and so was water. There was a sun god in Egypt and a water god in Greece. Like, seriously, did you hit your head recently?

I doubt people of the old days knew about bacteria, at least not at the time when the Bible was written. It is not a question of what we know today, but what we knew a few centuries ago. Today's religions are not separate from religions of the old days, today's faith grew out of the old beliefs. Judaism and Christianity did not simply spring up in a vacuum, they built on top of surrounding beliefs.

All I am saying is that the sun is a representation of a GOD and in some cases the creator. REP RE SEN TA TION.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huitzilopochtli

And i did not start this thread Avatar started it.

The ancients worshipped complex things, like sky, love, and so on. It's not easy to explain or portray such concepts, so a familiar form was attached to them. Egyptian Sky goddess was drawn as a woman, but it's not the woman that was worshipped; the sky was worshipped. When Christians draw god the father, they do not worship the image of the god; they worship the concept of the god, which allows them to draw god the father differently in each picture. When Christians wear a cross, they're not exhibiting worship of the cross; they're wearing the cross as a symbol. All material representations are symbols, not the actual object of worship. So you've got it backwards. :p It's not the sun that represents the god; the sun is the god and is represented by a human-looking body so that it's easier for humans to relate to it.

As far as i know at the very core all religous belief is based on a creator. The sun being worthy of worship, water, wind, the Earth, the planets. The Sun is just so obvious and was more of an attribute of the creator/s or maybe even a metaphor. To say that these ancient religions were entirely based on the Sun is not realistic.

No, no, not entirely based; but that does not take away the fact that it was worshipped among other things. The Egyptian worship of the sun disk, that is mentioned by River-wind above, is one of the first religions centered on the sun. Whether the Judeo-Christian tradition is/was centered around the sun or not is the question that Medicine Woman was addressing.

The same way I could say that christians don't worship God, but the mistery beyond.
I'd be correct from a specific point of view, but just from a specific point of view that most christians won't even agree to.

The same way I could say that christians don't worship God, but the mistery beyond.
I'd be correct from a specific point of view, but just from a specific point of view that most christians won't even agree to.

Now your getting it:D

Christians believe in Jesus, the whole story and completely. What is the big deal:shrug:

Whether the Judeo-Christian tradition is/was centered around the sun or not is the question that Medicine Woman was addressing.

Right. And this is not even remotely possible. Obviously i dont think any major\mainstream religion ever was.

People are free to choose in what they believe in.
If I said I believed in Cthulhu and you through a crafty analysis would come to some point of view that instead I worship Snowhite, and I then disagreed with you, then that's the end of it.
I choose in what I believe in, not you, nobody is an authority in that, because belief is subjective.
If there are songs in which the Sun is worshipped, then the Sun is worshipped, and that's the end of it.

You're an example of unhealthy reasoning from which many students of philosophy suffer, i.e., they become the giants of a sick mind.

Right. And this is not even remotely possible.

why is it not remotely possible?

Avatar,

So believe whatever you want. Where have i ever once stated any person should do anything different?

And what could possibly be the big deal if what i have stated throughout this thread has truth to it?

That was a real nice post too:mad:----he he he.

why is it not remotely possible?

Why would it be? Maybe you belive the sun is god:shrug:

It's possible because people may have believed that the sun is the physical manifestation of God - the visible and direct method of his/her/their/its effect on life every day.

If it is possible for people to believe that, then it is possible for other myths to be built upon that foundation. It doesn't make it so, just makes it possible.

Admittedly my knowledge of the Jewish faith is merely cursory, from what i have read the SUN was NOT the focus point of their belief. Maybe i am wrong.


That is the subject of this thread. Maintaining links to past civizations and customs even times of worship is possible and expected.

I think the problem here is your modern viewpoint. From your point of view the Sun is just a star, a physical phenomen explained by physics and other sciences. And so you think that worshipping the Sun is the same as worshipping a table, a rock or a mountain.

For an ancient man with no access to modern scientific knowledge the Sun was a mistery, a mystical and a mythical appearence of something unexplained in heavens, something that indeed could be god in person itself.

By the way, you could find this interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVEscMOalnc


p.s. I'm sorry if I terribly misunderstand someone here and look stupid for those of you on the morning side of the planet, it's been a very, very tiring day and my cup of strong green tea is still getting ready.

The same way I could say that christians don't worship God, but the mistery beyond.
I'd be correct from a specific point of view, but just from a specific point of view that most christians won't even agree to.

No, that's not the same. They certainly worship the god, but not the particular representation of him on the icon; which is why their god can be imagined as a man, or as light. To say that they worship the man would be, eh, wrong.

Let's not get into what most Christians would agree to. Most of them haven't even read the Bible. You can teach them a thing or two about their faith if you want. And the ones that have read the Bible agree on very few things among each other.

No it doesn't seem that the Jewish traditions were based heavily on sun worship. However, much of the Jewish faith seems to have been built on other religions from the area; some of which do have a strong history of sun worship.

Certain aspects of the OT could be linked to a sun-worship tradition, and have been by many scholars. Some more obvious than others, such as the Birkat ha-Hammah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkat_HaHammah

Their god - Jahve. It's a personalized phenomena :D It's a metaphor made into an object. Sorry, as I said, I don't wish to spend this evening discussing christianity. Actually I'm now going to read a book. Cya, all

http://www.ss-peterandpaul.net/images/pope.jpg

http://www.piney.com/PopeSunRemonstr.jpg

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/dome.jpg

http://www.metahistory.org/images/meta_AztecSavior.jpg

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/Monstrances1.jpg

http://www.answering-christianity.org/abdullah_smith/image004.jpg
-guess who, not Jesus...

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/SunGod1.jpg

-No Sun worshipping ? LOL

http://www.ss-peterandpaul.net/images/pope.jpg

http://www.piney.com/PopeSunRemonstr.jpg

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/dome.jpg

Sun being used as a symbol

Symbol of what ? Of God ? Whats the difference ?

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

The Part One of this movie makes the case better than I.

It is impossible to worship something that cannot respond in any way whatsoever, it is like worshipping a Maseratti. If people worship the Sun and equate it with life they can just as well worship bacteria.
At least the sun exists unlike the god we have now, it probably responds alot more than god does as well.

I recon if people are able to worship something which they have never seen or felt, they can easily worship a ball of flame with grows their crops, warms them, and looks pritty.

To help this assumption, back then they did not know whatthe sun was, so instead of prasing the sun they praised a sun god and so on. My father's family originated from Persia, before Islam came along they were Zoroastrian, they praised the Sun god, Fire god, Earth god and I don't know what else, they still light the Zoroastrian flame one in a while, the worship of the sun and fire is written all over Samarkand.

There is no Fire god, Earth god, etc in Zoroastrism.

Basic beliefs
There is one universal and transcendental God, Ahura Mazda, the one uncreated Creator and to whom all worship is ultimately directed.
Ahura Mazda's creation - evident as asha, truth and order - is the antithesis of chaos, evident as druj, falsehood and disorder. The resulting conflict involves the entire universe, including humanity, which has an active role to play in the conflict (see #3 below).
Active participation in life through good thoughts, good words and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep the chaos at bay. This active participation is a central element in Zoroaster's concept of free will, and Zoroastrianism rejects all forms of monasticism.
Ahura Mazda will ultimately prevail, at which point the universe will undergo a cosmic renovation and time will end (cf: Zoroastrian eschatology). In the final renovation, all of creation - even the souls of the dead that were initially banished to "darkness" - will be (re)united in God.
In Zoroastrian tradition, the malevolent is represented by Angra Mainyu, the "Destructive Principle", while the benevolent is represented through Ahura Mazda's Spenta Mainyu, the instrument or "Bounteous Principle" of the act of creation. It is through Spenta Mainyu that Ahura Mazda is immanent in humankind, and through which the Creator interacts with the world. According to Zoroastrian cosmology, in articulating the Ahuna Vairya formula, Ahura Mazda made His ultimate triumph evident to Angra Mainyu.
As expressions and aspects of Creation, Ahura Mazda emanated seven "sparks", the Amesha Spentas, "Bounteous Immortals" that are each the hypostasis and representative of one aspect of that Creation. These Amesha Spenta are in turn assisted by a league of lesser principles, the Yazatas, each "Worthy of Worship" and each again a hypostasis of a moral or physical aspect of Creation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

http://www.metahistory.org/images/meta_AztecSavior.jpg

http://www.answering-christianity.org/abdullah_smith/image004.jpg
-guess who, not Jesus...

Well the first image is...is...um...is it...can it be? YACATECUHTLI???
http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/aztec-mythology.php?deity=YACATECUHTLI

Most cannot even spell the name yet they have websites about it.

The second cross-bearer is from your link:

http://www.answering-christianity.org/ac.htm

Your caption is - guess Who? I dont know, why dont you tell us. Is it Copyright 2005? you probably dont even know.

And so what if you are Muslim, we are looking for unbiased sources. No one here is looking to take anything away from you. And if i need to say this over and over i will - I DO NOT FOLLOW AN ORGANIZED RELIGION. MY RESPONSES DO NOT NEED TO CHECK OUT WITH ANY COMMONLY HELD BELIEFS, ONLY BASED ON INDEPENDANT RATIONAL OBSERVATION. I AM IN SEARCH OF KNOWLEDGE AND PERSONAL INTEREST. I dont believe half the bull shit being perpetuated, that makes me less prone to believe in myth than most that responded here.

And to give you a clue, Jesus can certainly have similarities to others - WHY? Because there is the possibility of numerous manifestations. POSS IB BILL IT TEEEEE.

YACATECUHTLI was, as far as i know, never crucified.

Director of the Pochtecas Chamber of Commerce, YACATECUHTLI offers insider dealing only and it's very difficult to obtain membership. The secret symbol is a bundle of twigs.


His symbol is the cross, which he appears to be carrying as though attempting to hawk it from door-to-door. Makes a change from double-glazing — although we don't know if he offers any kind of warranty.

The idea behind education is to not remain ignorant. A bad education is worse than no education. Are you going to tell us nex that Romans did not crucify? Hence, the CROSS.

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

The Part One of this movie makes the case better than I.

Oh i am sure it makes a case better than you (it makes the 'head case' case very well) but there is a thread on the movie already, you should read it.

At least the sun exists unlike the god we have now, it probably responds alot more than god does as well.

I recon if people are able to worship something which they have never seen or felt, they can easily worship a ball of flame with grows their crops, warms them, and looks pritty.---[:rolleyes:]

To help this assumption, back then they did not know whatthe sun was, so instead of prasing the sun they praised a sun god and so on. My father's family originated from Persia, before Islam came along they were Zoroastrian, they praised the Sun god, Fire god, Earth god and I don't know what else, they still light the Zoroastrian flame one in a while, the worship of the sun and fire is written all over Samarkand.

I do know that many ancient people were more intelligent than modern ones, this is proven repeatedly AND it is also becoming clear that no modern religion should use anything that uses the SUN as a symbol in any way so as to not be taken out of context....ooooh that is the SUN, Billy. This would be funny if it were not so sad. The fact is that i worry about our civilization and how it embraces ignorance.

YACATECUHTLI

He who contains all the four seasons. What defines what season it is ? The sun and how much of it is there to be seen of it, i.e sun owns all the seasons, one year cycle i.e the time that takes earth to go around the sun.
He who leads the way i.e the sun, the sun and the stars were the objects in the sky which helped travellers.
He who is presented on the cross, i.e the sun is staying still in the crosspoint of the southern cross in the sky, guess when, yes, 22-25.12 and at the thrid day he/sun is raising up in the sky/heaven.
Winter Solstice (Dec. 22-25)

http://www.secweb.org/index.aspx?action=viewAsset&id=178

You are pointing out that traditions carried over through generations, i have allready acknowledged this in another post. There are three seperate holidays in the Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths that coincide almost enirely just differ in lenght of time.

Ramadan, Yom Kippur and Christma\New Years - PARTY. December 25th was a common time for a MAJOR celebration. Celebrating your crops growing...ok fine.

My goal here is to question the notion of THE SUN as THE CREATOR (by the majority) or was it much less than that? Thats all. I have no interest in obscure tribes or small groups.

Of course the sun was visible but so was\is vast amounts of space. They could surmise that there was something beyond the sun.

My goal here is to question the notion of THE SUN as THE CREATOR (by the majority) or was it much less than that? Thats all. I have no interest in obscure tribes or small groups.

No, from your starting post it is clear that you question the notion that the Sun has been worshipped at all.
By adding "creator" and the requirement for majority you have limited the scope of your argument and thus acknowledged defeat. Naturally.

Humans identify with humans and to a lesser extent other living creatures. The Sun is an object but has no characteristics humans would identify with. I doubt that the Sun was ever worshipped at all, more than likely this stems from a misunderstanding of ancient people and ancient art which draws some amazing conclusions. We can look at artifacts and can claim to know more from them but we dont, whatever makes us feel better i guess.

Avatar, the simplest deduction is that so far ALL these supposed sun gods have a human form or some form that looks alot like a human with fire coming out of his head.

THE SUN as THE CREATOR - Yes.

When lots of sun then lots of creation in nature, easy connection to understand back then, and in other hand, too much sun with no water then destruction, just like God can be hard on us time to time ;) maker/destructor ying/yang and shivas dance and so on.

I read once about some tribe which bowed to empty coke bottle,
so why not take the sun as a creator, something so powerful that you cant even watch it.

So? That's where religion comes in. Belief, folk stories and the like, ya know.
Art is not naturalistic, not even when humans depict humans, much less a mythical mystery in heavens.

I think post #75 is pretty compelling, can you refute it?

THE SUN as THE CREATOR - Yes.

When lots of sun then lots of creation in nature, easy connection to understand back then, and in other hand, too much sun with no water then destruction, just like God can be hard on us time to time ;) maker/destructor ying/yang and shivas dance and so on.

I read once about some tribe which bowed to empty coke bottle,
so why not take the sun as a creator, something so powerful that you cant even watch it.

And what direct role does the sun play in human birth? Humans were born in caves, and even AT NIGHT.

I read once about some tribe which bowed to empty coke bottle,
so why not take the sun as a creator

That is exactly what i am saying. Just because an object has an element of worship does not make it the focal point.

And what direct role does the sun play in human birth?

- I dont know, you have to ask for those whom worships sun ;)

In Egypt there was lots of Gods until Akhenaton (spellcheckalert) did bring Sun to be the only God, why, I dont know.

That is exactly what i am saying. Just because an object has an element of worship does not make it the focal point.

-Are you trying to say that when they worshipped sun they transfered Gods qualities to sun knowing that the sun wasnt the real God ? Is that it ?

I think post #75 is pretty compelling, can you refute it?
I think we're on a different wavelenght.

I haven't read the whole thread (so forgive me if this has already been raised), but what about Amaterasu, the Shinto sun goddess? She's still worshipped by many Japanese (that sun symbol on their flag...her position in the Shinto religion is why its there). I guess human nature really hasn't changed.

You also say:

It is impossible to worship something that cannot respond in any way whatsoever, it is like worshipping a Maseratti.

Since there are a variety of religions that worship invisible or at least unseen beings, and a few that worship no specific beings but merely revere particular concepts, I'm going to have to disagree. They can't *all* be right, so someone is worshipping something that cannot respond in any way whatsoever, because it's a fiction.

First we need to cosider the fact that without the Sun there would be no life, this is a simple fact of nature. However, this can be said about many things such as water, throughout human history we have always been very aware of this. Yet we dont claim that water was once worshipped, for anyone to say 'Sun, Sun why have you forsaken me' at the moment of death is far fetched and would indicate very low IQ. As a matter of fact it is hard to believe a human under any circumstances would say such a thing. It is like looking at an egg and saying 'why have you forsaken me'.
First of all, let me say that I don't agree with the inferences made by medicine woman about which this thread was made for. But that is more because I have no opinion on that matter.

But I do know that in nearly any primitive religion you would find that the people worshipped the elements of earth, water, wind and fire. These elements were most likely transformed by oral tradition into gods of a human likeness. The sun has always been a mysterious and awe-inspiring aspect of our time on this planet and we have been entranced by it since before we were human.

Before we learned to talk, we knew that when the sun went down, danger roamed. And when the sun came up, we were able to see and hunt and survive. Anytime that there is no sun is always a more dangerous time. This would logically and historically lead to the worship of the sun as one of, if not the first "god".

I can imagine numerous situations in which a man would say, "sun, why have you forsaken me?". But it is more likely that the words mean exactly what most think they mean: "God, why have you forsaken me?" There are many similarities between words among the ancient languages and some of them are coincidence, some are not. Also, there is the question of whether or not this actually happened, and if it did, then whether or not those were the very words spoken. Chances indicate one or both to be false.

Humans identify with humans and to a lesser extent other living creatures. The Sun is an object but has no characteristics humans would identify with. I doubt that the Sun was ever worshipped at all, more than likely this stems from a misunderstanding of ancient people and ancient art which draws some amazing conclusions. We can look at artifacts and can claim to know more from them but we dont, whatever makes us feel better i guess.
As I am sure you are coming to understand, your original comments here proved to be inaccurate. Now that you have rephrased them, lets argue that point in the hopes that you have humbly learned your mistake.

In admission that people have worshipped the sun, you now claim that:
As far as i know at the very core all religous belief is based on a creator. The sun being worthy of worship, water, wind, the Earth, the planets. The Sun is just so obvious and was more of an attribute of the creator/s or maybe even a metaphor. To say that these ancient religions were entirely based on the Sun is not realistic.
It is not enough to say that early tribes based their religion upon the sun. One must go so far as to say that early man based his entire life upon the sun. The sun provided warmth, provided light, provided life. It is not so hard to notice that the plants which provide food for all living things requires light to survive. In Africa, the supposed birthground for humanity, man knew that night, the lack of sun, brought predators such as lions. In the day, he could see all, but in the night he was afraid.

The simple difference between night and day seemed enough to cause many people to worship the sun.

The moral of the story is just because we read about things and see it in movies does not make it true. Of course i am fairly certain i know why it was said but our civilization is not ready to know this- absolute truth. I just dont know what kind of effect it would have.
Try us...

Try us...

:D Good one

The moral of the story is just because we read about things and see it in movies does not make it true. Of course i am fairly certain i know why it was said but our civilization is not ready to know this- absolute truth. I just dont know what kind of effect it would have.

Now something may be fully accepted as truth out of faith, yet it may be empty, hollow and false; but something else may not be fully accepted out of faith, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken.
Again, something may be fullly approved of ... well transmitted ... well cogitated ... well pondered, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but something else may not be well pondered, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken. [Under these conditions] it is not proper for a wise man who preserves truth to come to the definite conclusion: "Only this is true, anything else is wrong."

Gautama Buddha (from MN 95: Canki Sutta; II 168-77)

Hey, ...Id go for the Sun over any of your Gods (face it - made in your own image). Or maybe id go for the Northern Lights? Those Aurora Warriors take some beating. Worship them. The Earth version has been manifesting itself as long as the Earth has. They'll tell you precisely whats going on with magnetic fields + sun if youve got the scientific ability to see it.

It is impossible to worship something that cannot respond in any way whatsoever,:bugeye:

yeah tell it to a Christian or Muslim etc...

There is no Fire god, Earth god, etc in Zoroastrism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

Maybe not seperate god's but versions of the creator. all three are considered sacred.

"The symbol of fire: The energy of the creator is represented in Zoroastrianism by fire and the sun which are both enduring, radiant, pure and life sustaining. Zoroastrians usually pray in front of some form of fire (or any source of light). (It is important to note that fire is not worshipped by Zoroastrians, but is used simply as symbol and a point of focus, much like the crucifix in Christianity."

"Death and burial: Religious rituals related to death are all concerned with the person's soul and not the body. Zoroastrians believe that on the fourth day after death, the human soul leaves the body and the body remains as an empty shell. Traditionally, Zoroastrians disposed of their dead by leaving them atop open-topped enclosures, called Towers of Silence, or Dokhmas. Vultures and the weather would clean the flesh off the bones, which were then placed into an ossuary at the center of the Tower. Fire and Earth were considered too sacred for the dead to be placed in them. While this practice is continued in India by some Parsis, it had ended by the beginning of the twentieth century in Iran. In India, burial and cremation are becoming increasingly popular alternatives."

Your caption is - guess Who? I dont know, why dont you tell us. Is it Copyright 2005? you probably dont even know.



It's Orpheus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus). From at least 500 years BC.


And to give you a clue, Jesus can certainly have similarities to others - WHY? Because there is the possibility of numerous manifestations. POSS IB BILL IT TEEEEE.

So either you agree with Justin Martyr and think that Satan implanted all the Jesus imitators before Jesus as a sort of pre-emptive copycatting, or you are suggesting that Jesus was not actually special; not the one and only true son of god, but one of a few other individual humans who could also rightfully claim that title.

I'm not so sure you want to go down that path...

I do know that many ancient people were more intelligent than modern ones, this is proven repeatedly AND it is also becoming clear that no modern religion should use anything that uses the SUN as a symbol in any way so as to not be taken out of context....ooooh that is the SUN, Billy. This would be funny if it were not so sad. The fact is that i worry about our civilization and how it embraces ignorance.

-Tell that to hundreds of millions of Christians whom are waiting the apocalypse and the world to end. ! . All they are waiting in that sense is that is entering the age/era/aeon of Aquarius, it was mistranslation which molded the concept of the world to end: "And I will be with you to end of the Aeon/Age ~ world, meaning I will be with you to end of Age Of Piscies (1AD - 2150AD)

It is impossible to worship something that cannot respond in any way whatsoever, it is like worshipping a Maseratti. If people worship the Sun and equate it with life they can just as well worship bacteria.

Are you mad?

Not only the Sun but the Moon.

And even the Stars...why do you think the Pyramids were built.

Even so that qualifies for silliest thread of the year so far...even though I've only been here a month, I cant believe theres a sillier thread.

There was the thread that explained why pterodactyls could fly: the spherical ice shield that surrounded the earth pre-biblical flood kept the air trapped closely to the land/ocean surface. This increased the density of the air, allowing such large beasts the lift needed for flight. When god made the earth flood, he melted the ice shield (which rained down very quickly) drowning everything. Afterwards, the increased solar radiation (due to the now-missing ice protection) and the significantly less-dense air killed any remaining stragglers (except Noah's brood and the animals held in the apparently pressurized cabin of the ark).

Oh, and the reason why fossils are in a seemingly time-related order is because they sorted themselves in the flood's vertical water column by their own densities - the result being that populations of the same creature world-wide ended up in the same layer.

That one was interesting.

RoyLennigan, excellent post. I think much has been taken out of context though.

I haven't read the whole thread (so forgive me if this has already been raised), but what about Amaterasu, the Shinto sun goddess? She's still worshipped by many Japanese (that sun symbol on their flag...her position in the Shinto religion is why its there). I guess human nature really hasn't changed.

You also say:



Since there are a variety of religions that worship invisible or at least unseen beings, and a few that worship no specific beings but merely revere particular concepts, I'm going to have to disagree. They can't *all* be right, so someone is worshipping something that cannot respond in any way whatsoever, because it's a fiction.

Are you mad?

Not only the Sun but the Moon.

And even the Stars...why do you think the Pyramids were built.

Even so that qualifies for silliest thread of the year so far...even though I've only been here a month, I cant believe theres a sillier thread.

Obviously you have not read this entire thread or the one that preceeded it. I did not start this thread but it is fine with me that it is here.

My initial intention (in the first thread) was to answer M*W's observation that a man, Jesus Christ or any person hanging from a cross, would ask the Sun why it had forsaken him- I am pretty sure that is what she had implied. Whatever did happen and what was actually said can be debated, this does not change the fact that it is far fetched to believe that a person at that time would make a statement like that unless they had the intelligence of a child.

Intent plays a big part of this thread, often times it is inferered that if people worshipped the Sun GOD\CREATOR (implied) it is equally ridiculous to worship any god because we all know now that the Sun is not a god and we would NOT attribute it with CREATION. My response is that this was NEVER the case.

Sun gods, water gods, fish gods do not matter, the point is weather the Sun was viewed as the creator of life - not if the sun was an attribute, like everything else we live with, of a supreme being or entity. So the answer to this is 'they saw the sun make their crops grow...' but as i have stated before they also saw their children being born in the dead of night so they would know the sun was NOT a direct requirement for life, it sustains life but so does eating and many other things. Read the whole thread and this becomes clearer. Sure without it there would be no life, no life equals death but that can be said about any requirement of living organisms. So what are we left with? The god of fish? Now it is obviously assumed that these people knew for a fact if the sun did stop generating heat (glowing) that life would stop, we know this now and what enormous effect it would have but was this always known? As a matter of fact, I would think that primitive people may have thought they can live without it, just in darkness. If we are going to make assumptions then why wouldn't we assume that primitive people senn that they can hunt at night, they can reproduce at night etc. so maybe it would be cooler but not the end of the world if it was no longer there.

Also it has been said (by a minority)that all religions are derived directly from sun worship, i have shown this to not be the case and maybe you would see that if you had read the thread.

People can worship a coke bottle, big f'ing deal, people CAN worship the sun in a way to look up and say 'please, please let my crops grow, but it is a mistake to assume that it was ever viewed as an entity solely responsible for creation of the planets, the stars, the moon and all life. If you have proof that this was the case then come up with it now or keep you comments to yourself. I can insult many people in a big way, but i am not going to do that because what would be the point.

Amaterasu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amaterasu

http://images.google.com/images?q=Amaterasu&rls=com.microsoft:*&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

All this does is prove my point, which is exactly what i intended to do by making the initial statement. I just see too many people making assumptions that do not logically seem accurate. Using Amaterasu as an example and from everything i have seen so far there was always human attributes added, given that information we can assume that ancient people fully believed there was something more, something not seen- A SUPREME BEING - NOT THE SUN but one who CREATED THE SUN.

I haven't read the whole thread (so forgive me if this has already been raised), but what about Amaterasu, the Shinto sun goddess? She's still worshipped by many Japanese (that sun symbol on their flag...her position in the Shinto religion is why its there). I guess human nature really hasn't changed.

For the last time, the sun was viewed as a magnificent attribute, a miracle and proof of GOD. As far as the Japanese flag, it looks cool and is easily copied.

What you have to do know is prove i am wrong. That is all, should be easy, i have seen just as much data as anyone else here and it is a matter of what we have been led to believe with alot of stuff added after the fact that can very well not be accurate at all.

Here are your sun gods:

http://images.google.com/images?q=sun+gods&rls=com.microsoft:*&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

http://search.live.com/images/results.aspx?q=sun%20gods&FORM=BIRE

Do you see a common theme?

My understanding (though I am not a follower of the Shinto religion, so might be wrong) is that Amaterasu did not create the Sun, she *is* the Sun. That's why when Amaterasu sealed herself in a cave (as indicated in your wikipedia link) the world was plunged into darkness--the Sun was gone.

If your point is that people never worshipped the Sun without anthropomorphizing it, you may be right (after all we do that with weather all the time, and we don't worship it), but to say that people worshipping while anthropomorphing the Sun is different that merely worshipping it is semantics, not a substantial argument.

To my mind John has been proven to be wrong some time ago now.
At least he is in my mind.
What he thinks in his, is his personal matter, but I don't think that any argument can make him think otherwise, and I don't really care.

The human form is so recognizable to us that we can see even the slightest error, these are errors but not natural imperfections. Even the greatest works of art that depict facial features in any realistic way we can often see things that are just not right. The imperfections, the symetry, never perfect but distinct. It is these imperfections that are hardest to capture and elude even the greatest artists. The point is that there has always been a human figure or an approximation as the main source of worship, it is what we identify with the most. That has never changed and most likely never will.

I beleive they (Shinto) worshipped the physical manifestaion and the sun was metaphorical. If i am wrong, well no one is perfect.:rolleyes:

To my mind John has been proven to be wrong some time ago now.
At least he is in my mind.
What he thinks in his, is his personal matter, but I don't think that any argument can make him think otherwise, and I don't really care.

You have to admit i am doing a good job.:)

It is impossible to worship something that cannot respond in any way whatsoever, it is like worshipping a Maseratti. If people worship the Sun and equate it with life they can just as well worship bacteria.

As opposed to worshipping a Golden Calf? Or an old dude with a beard who lives in the clouds?

Couple of questions to you John99 if you dont mind.

-Are you trying to say that when they worshipped sun they transfered Gods qualities to sun knowing that the sun wasnt the real God ? Is that it ?
-Or was the sun just a minor God but still they prefer to worship it leaving the superior God without attention ?

-And if that is the case why they did so ?

-Lets say they did it in that way, can you give us some example of that ?

You mean it like now when we worship Jesus to be God knowing that he really isnt the real God ? Or does that mean that Jesus wasnt real God, just some dude to worship as son of God but not quite a God ? Or Jesus was just like one of us ?
Confusing, to say at least ?

I think Islam is on to something when forbidding to make any images of God ;)

This is really something. I had a great post all written out and i hit the go advanced button to proof read it and i got a blank page. Since that is the first time that has ever happened in all the posts i made then i guess it was just not meant to be.

The page was blank...white and on the bottom it said - DONE.

I suggest you write important posts in a word redactor program first, and only then paste to browser. Has happened to me too, so I now apply that method.

Thanks. Usually i just copy the text (ctrl-C) and have it there if i need to ctrl-v but what happened this time is i got logged off by a mod who is out to get me and when i hit the back button it was gone for ever. Too bad because i was going to share profound information, and the best part is it is all free. Very intense, i was reticent to post it because it is either something realllly big or just way out there.

Ah, REALLY i just got timed out and for some reason it went blank white, THAT has never happened to me so i was like whoa- he he. Somehting new in the last few months.

ANYWAY and relating to this thread: NOTE: This is NOT my original post, that was BIIIIGGGGG and could effect civilisation to the extent that i just am not willing to live with, and why should i?

If we look at a new born infant, there is a look they get when they see another human, you see it in their eyes, their face, there is no lying, pure, innocenct, no deception, no animosity - LOVE in the truest sense. They are not looking at an object, the identify with humans explicitly. The Sun is just a big warm ball in the sky, i know that this carries on throughout life and has not changed since the first humans were put here...however many they may have been. This is not to say there was no assumptions and fantasy related to the sun just that as humans we would never give into this object completely. I am not one to accept things at face value and to reiterate much more is made of this phenomenon then we have been led to believe. This is not to say initially it was good intentioned but....No smoking gun, not by a long shot.

I rest my case and feel vindicated AND will accept all apologies.

John99

ANYWAY and relating to this thread: NOTE: This is NOT my original post, that was BIIIIGGGGG and could effect civilisation to the extent that i just am not willing to live with, and why should i?
-You just leave us guessing then, hmmmmmm. Well, its your choice and right.

If we look at a new born infant, there is a look they get when they see another human, you see it in their eyes, their face, there is no lying, pure, innocenct, no deception, no animosity - LOVE in the truest sense. They are not looking at an object, the identify with humans explicitly.
-I agree

The Sun is just a big warm ball in the sky, i know that this carries on throughout life and has not changed since the first humans were put here...however many they may have been. This is not to say there was no assumptions and fantasy related to the sun just that as humans we would never give into this object completely.
-Well they did sacrified fellow HUMANS to some God, was is sun or what, but the point remains, they put the fear of God over fellow humans life.
Quite powerful fantasy I may add.

I am not one to accept things at face value and to reiterate much more is made of this phenomenon then we have been led to believe. This is not to say initially it was good intentioned but....No smoking gun, not by a long shot.
-I dont get this part

I rest my case and feel vindicated AND will accept all apologies.
-I´m sorry that your first post get screwed.

Cheers

Every time i post things reltating to the supernatural i get flamed. If you dont mind me asking, what country are you from?

I´m from Finland. Where are you from ?
Flamed ? How ? I thought we were having meaningful discussion after sticky start.
Dont mind the ones flaming, in this forum there always will be flamers.

Finland, thats cool. yeah, its been an interesting discussion...maybe a little confusing. The lines are becoming somewhat blurred.

I am from U.S.

John99

-I thought about this over and decided to go to first post.

First we need to cosider the fact that without the Sun there would be no life, this is a simple fact of nature. However, this can be said about many things such as water, throughout human history we have always been very aware of this. Yet we dont claim that water was once worshipped,
-There is big difference with water and sun in that sense, you cant touch sun, you cant even watch it, you have no control over sun what so ever, that could not be said about water. It was the other way around, the sun did have control over man.

for anyone to say 'Sun, Sun why have you forsaken me' at the moment of death is far fetched and would indicate very low IQ. As a matter of fact it is hard to believe a human under any circumstances would say such a thing. It is like looking at an egg and saying 'why have you forsaken me'.

-I wouldnt mix IQ with religion, its easy to say that now since we know things like big bangs, black holes and so on, if the sun was taken as God back then, there was nothing strange in hes word.

Humans identify with humans and to a lesser extent other living creatures. The Sun is an object but has no characteristics humans would identify with. I doubt that the Sun was ever worshipped at all, more than likely this stems from a misunderstanding of ancient people and ancient art which draws some amazing conclusions. We can look at artifacts and can claim to know more from them but we dont, whatever makes us feel better i guess.
-The fact that sun has no characteristic of human makes it nonhuman, maybe...like God ?
-Only thing we can relay on issues like this is what they have left behind and how that is relating to now days, everybody is free to make their own conclusions, mine is that the sun was presented as God in many religions.
I really wonder your doubt that sun wasnt worshipped AT ALL, not in any religion ?

The moral of the story is just because we read about things and see it in movies does not make it true. Of course i am fairly certain i know why it was said but our civilization is not ready to know this- absolute truth. I just dont know what kind of effect it would have.
-This is the part that I dont fully understand, what truth, the truth that we are worshipping false images ? The truth of God and who/what he/she/it really is ? The truth that there is no God ? Can you specify this, I´m confused.

Suit yourself then.

-I wouldnt mix IQ with religion, its easy to say that now since we know things like big bangs, black holes and so on, if the sun was taken as God back then, there was nothing strange in hes word.

Oh really, and what do we know? The big bang, more like the big guess. I have never known an explosion to do anything particularly useful let alone create remarkably distinct spheres all on its own. Usually explosions destroy, they dont create much. Hell for all i know then maybe there is some old guy up there with a white beard. And why an explosion anyway?

http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy/universe/b_bang.html
BOOM - http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~imamura/121/images/sphere.gif

"This means there are at least 100 billion stars with planets in our Galaxy," Lineweaver said. "With about 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe, our result suggests that there are at least 10 trillion planetary systems in the Universe."

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/afp/20030922/universe.html

Suit yourself then.
Oh really, and what do we know? The big bang, more like the big guess. I have never known an explosion to do anything particularly useful let alone create remarkably distinct spheres all on its own. Usually explosions destroy, they dont create much. Hell for all i know then maybe there is some old guy up there with a white beard. And why an explosion anyway?

"This means there are at least 100 billion stars with planets in our Galaxy," Lineweaver said. "With about 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe, our result suggests that there are at least 10 trillion planetary systems in the Universe."


-Lets look what I said:
-I wouldnt mix IQ with religion, its easy to say that now since we know things like big bangs, black holes and so on, if the sun was taken as God back then, there was nothing strange in hes word.

-I doubt that they did have the same knowledge about universe than we have now, we have telescopes like hubble and so on, replace the words big bang with; pulsars, neutron stars...
-I dont have no interest start arguing what is big bang or even that is that theory right, it dont have much relevance to the topic at hand, there is better suited sub-forums to do that in this site...

Hey, we was mates.

:cheers: