Well, one supposes this would happen eventually. I wonder at the father's wounds, but if it's true and his teenage daughter "did fer him, Jimmy", then good for her. Yet, if true, it's also reflective of what people have been suspecting about islam for some time now, and what imams everywhere have been saying for almost 1400 years: islam is like a door - you can go in but there is no getting out.

Does that has a certain mafia ring to it? "No compulsion"..."no getting out"...stab to death.

Hmmm.

[PS: I do apologize for the "Jimmy" comment above, meaning no disrespect in my invocation of the ancient Scottish slander about beer, knives and general bloodthirstiness. Indeed, since the event below occurred in Australia, I suppose I should have used the Aussie version of the above phrase. Something like "thet's not a knife" or possibly "g'day". James?

Ah well: I suppose I shall now have a fatwa pronounced on me. Can one be decapitated by boomerang?]

Best of luck to this girl. She'll need it. In all seriousness, could donations be solicited?

And what's the penalty for solicitation on an Aussie website? James?

I'll stop now.

Geoff

Religion blamed for stabbing

Greg Stolz
October 11, 2006 12:00am

A RELIGIOUS feud between a Muslim father and his teenage daughter may have sparked a bloody domestic dispute on the Gold Coast which left the man's wife dead and him fighting for life in hospital.

Police are investigating suggestions the violence erupted after the 17-year-old girl told her father she wanted to opt out of the Islamic faith and convert to Christianity. The girl's mother is believed to have stepped in to protect her daughter, only to be fatally stabbed with a kitchen knife.

Neighbours reported hearing "blood-curdling" screams before the hysterical girl ran half-naked from their Southport home unit covered in scratches.

Police later found the body of the girl's mother, 41, inside the blood-smeared unit. Her husband was taken to the Gold Coast Hospital with a stab wound to the chest. He was last night in a critical condition under police guard.

Neighbour Caitlin Dalton was taking out the rubbish about 7pm on Monday when she heard "loud, huge, terrifying screams" coming from the unit complex.

"She (the teenager) was yelling, 'Help me, help me, they're trying to kill me'," Ms Dalton said. "Everybody heard the screams but we couldn't work out which unit they were coming from. Then this girl emerged in the stairwell hysterical and crying.

"Her clothes had been ripped off, she was just in her underwear and she had quite severe scratches down her arm and across her back."

Ms Dalton said that as residents tried to comfort the sobbing girl, she told how she had wanted to "convert from the Islam religion . . . and obviously her father didn't handle it very well".

"She said her parents were really strict," Ms Dalton said.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,20560551-3102,00.html

Yet, if true, it's also reflective of what people have been suspecting about islam for some time now, and what imams everywhere have been saying for almost 1400 years: islam is like a door - you can go in but there is no getting out.

So in your thinking, this incident is enough to state that Islam is like a door - I've never heard that by the way - once in, no way out?

[256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

You are either with us or against us.

Now where have I heard that before?

Very sad about the mother. The father will probably have a long time to reflect in prison.

Good thing there wasn't a gun in the house.

"Very Sad about the mother"! Is that it?? - is that all you've got to say sammy??

And not a word from sammy about the poor girl who only wanted to opt of Islam - she is now motherless and no doubt will be on the verge of a nervous breakdown - this will affect the girl for the rest of her life - all because she wanted freedom from the shackles of Islam.

"Very Sad about the mother"! Is that it?? - is that all you've got to say sammy??

And not a word from sammy about the poor girl who only wanted to opt of Islam - she is now motherless and no doubt will be on the verge of a nervous breakdown - this will affect the girl for the rest of her life - all because she wanted freedom from the shackles of Islam.

In her place stewie, knowing your parents are strict like that, what would you have done?

In her place stewie, knowing your parents are strict like that, what would you have done?

You tell me - you're a female muslim - What would you have done ??

Don't you feel any pity for her ??

Good thing there wasn't a gun in the house.

Yeah, really! The mother could have been killed by bullets instead of a knife! I'm sure as hell happy that he didn't have a gun, too! Damn, bullets kill people a lot deader then knives, huh? ...LOL!

Sam, sometimes the bullshit out of your mouth is laughable ....no, I take that back MOST of the time the bullshit out of your mouth IS laughable.

Baron Max

You tell me - you're a female muslim - What would you have done ??

Don't you feel any pity for her ??

I want to know what YOU would have done.

I wonder if you can answer the question or whether you'll just revert to a personal attack like ole Baron here, who by his own admission has no opinions and yet feels compelled to share his non opinions accompanied by LOL LOL LOL.

Yeah, really! The mother could have been killed by bullets instead of a knife! I'm sure as hell happy that he didn't have a gun, too! Damn, bullets kill people a lot deader then knives, huh? ...LOL!

Sam, sometimes the bullshit out of your mouth is laughable ....no, I take that back MOST of the time the bullshit out of your mouth IS laughable.

Baron Max

I don't recall holding a gun to your head Baron. LOL:eek:

I want to know what YOU would have done.

I wonder if you can answer the question or whether you'll just revert to a personal attack like ole Baron here, who by his own admission has no opinions and yet feels compelled to share his non opinions accompanied by LOL LOL LOL.

Side stepped the question again huh -

I'll ask you once again

Do you feel any pity for the girl who went through this ordeal just because she wanted to free herself from the shackles of Islam?

*SILENCE FROM SAMMY - YET AGAIN*

So in your thinking, this incident is enough to state that Islam is like a door - I've never heard that by the way - once in, no way out?

[256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

"This incident"? As in: this incident alone? Surely you're joking? :confused:

Firstly, the other way that's translated is "There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way has become clearly distinct from error...", meaning one can indeed be forced to islam without being "compulsed", for who, after all, would refuse the "right way"? Well, obstinates and decievers, naturally. This is precisely the way the Wahhabis (among others) interpret it, and have for years. I'm surprised you phrase your response in this way.

Moreover, the issue is also whether or not one can be compulsed to stay in islam: and clearly one can. I don't imagine you could possibly be unfamiliar with the penalty for apostacy in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt, Syria, Indonesia, Malaysia or Afghanistan? It typically ranges around repeated fines, confiscation of property, loss of employment, to prison terms and death. Witness the case of the Pakistani who wanted to convert a few months back. I also can't imagine either you or Sam is ignorant of that case. I direct you to the words of Mohammed as reported by that most canonical and diligent of observers, al-Buhkari: "If a man leaves islam, kill him." There are similar references in al-Dawud, among others. Al-Muslim also, I think. Must check.

In any event, I honestly fail to see the need to reiterate the facts over and over, in the hope that eventually they might take.

Good thing there wasn't a gun in the house.

Mom could have used one.

In her place stewie, knowing your parents are strict like that, what would you have done?

Sam, I beg your pardon to intrude - indeed, I would beg with both hands were that required - but precisely what relevance is there would knowing what Stewart would have done? Is he trying to leave islam also? Should the girl have carefully snuck away, then proclaimed her conversion? Why? Why should that be the 'accepted' manner? Should she bend her behaviour to suit the scruples of a religion she doesn't believe in? Should Australia?

You have yet to condemn the penalty for apostacy - and such condemnation should be unequivocal and complete. Why have you not done so here? And am I right in thinking your father is in fact a religious leader of some note?

Geoff

Mom could have used one.

Possibly - although the kid did say "they're trying to kill me".

Now there's a slightly horrifying thought and an unusual idea: both your parents trying to murder you before you can escape the house.

(I admit, of course, that being Australia, anything is possible. :D )

"Mom, dad said I couldn't leave islam and that I had to die!"

"Well, you should listen to your father, dear. And take this!"

Let's hope there's some more reasonable - or hopeful - explanation, shall we?

Of course, hope - like flowers from manure - springeth eternal.

Geoff

Just looked up the news story online.
http://www.gcbulletin.com.au/article/2006/10/10/1187_news.html

A WOMAN was stabbed to death and a man critically injured in a domestic dispute at Southport last night.

Police crews rushed to an upmarket apartment block in Smith Street shortly after 7pm following reports of a violent fight with knives.

The dispute involved the couple and their daughter who suffered minor injuries.

Emergency crews arrived at the scene and found the bloodied couple in their apartment.

They were clinging to life with serious chest and abdominal injuries from stab wounds.

Ambulance crews worked frantically on the pair but were unable to save the woman.

"Unfortunately, the woman went into cardiac arrest and died at the scene," said an ambulance spokeswoman.

"Paramedics stabilised the man and he was transported to the Gold Coast Hospital in a critical condition." He sustained a lacerated aorta.

The daughter, in her mid-20s, was treated at the apartment but not taken to hospital.

Acting Detective Inspector Marc Hogan, of Surfers Paradise CIB, said: "Tragically, there has been a domestic situation here and one female person has been located deceased."

Late last night, police were still trying to determine the cause of the dispute and whether one person, or both, had inflicted the stab wounds.

"Police are interviewing possible witnesses," said Det Insp Hogan.

He said police were hopeful of getting information from the man in hospital.

It was not known if the couple, which police described as middle-aged, were married.

The tragic incident turned the street into a major crime scene.

At one stage there were 10 police cars and four ambulance crews at the apartment block, with emergency crews running in and out for almost half an hour.

Neighbours from the complex stood on their balconies in shock while some took photos.

The dog squad was also called in after police originally thought one or more of those involved had fled the scene.

A number of people arrived home to the complex unsure if they could enter their homes.

One neighbour said that before police arrived it had seemed like a relatively quiet night at the apartment block.

"They live above us and we didn't hear anything," said the woman.


And another
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20557152-29277,00.html

Woman found stabbed to death
October 10, 2006
A MAN seriously injured in a violent domestic dispute in which his wife was stabbed to death on the Gold Coast remains in a critical condition.

The man underwent surgery today as police tried to piece together exactly what happened during the incident in Southport about 7pm (AEST) yesterday.

Paramedics found the 41-year-old woman with stab wounds and tried to revive her, but she died at the scene, police said.

Her husband was found with serious injuries and was rushed to Gold Coast Hospital.

The couple's 17-year-old daughter was treated for minor injuries and is assisting police with their investigation.

Both the man and woman received a single stab wound to the chest from a kitchen knife.

Surfers Paradise CIB head Detective Inspector John Hartwell said the father had moved to the Gold Coast a month ago and the mother and daughter arrived only on Saturday.

The family – of Bangladeshi descent – had lived in Adelaide before moving to Queensland.

Det Insp Hartwell said he wasn't prepared to speculate on the cause of the tragedy until more information was available.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200610/s1760291.htm

Police are trying to contact the relatives of a woman who was stabbed and died in a Gold Coast unit on Monday night.

The 41-year-old's husband was also stabbed in the chest and the couple's 17-year-old daughter witnessed the incident.

Police say they are not prepared to speculate on whether religion was a motive in the attacks.

Well, one supposes this would happen eventually. I wonder at the father's wounds, but if it's true and his teenage daughter "did fer him, Jimmy", then good for her. Yet, if true, it's also reflective of what people have been suspecting about islam for some time now, and what imams everywhere have been saying for almost 1400 years: islam is like a door - you can go in but there is no getting out.

Does that has a certain mafia ring to it? "No compulsion"..."no getting out"...stab to death.

Hmmm.

[PS: I do apologize for the "Jimmy" comment above, meaning no disrespect in my invocation of the ancient Scottish slander about beer, knives and general bloodthirstiness. Indeed, since the event below occurred in Australia, I suppose I should have used the Aussie version of the above phrase. Something like "thet's not a knife" or possibly "g'day". James?

Ah well: I suppose I shall now have a fatwa pronounced on me. Can one be decapitated by boomerang?]

Best of luck to this girl. She'll need it. In all seriousness, could donations be solicited?

And what's the penalty for solicitation on an Aussie website? James?

I'll stop now.

Geoff

Hi geoff,

thank you for your most recent thread

this is indeed an extremely awful act... the father must be menatlly deranged to have not seen thrugh the logic of his actions.. And the pooor daughter, this is so sad, how a family have to endure this.. And the mum how brave of her, as she gavce her own life for her daughter.

what makes it even more sad, is that no one loves them anymore then they love each other.

i hope the father has time in hospital/prison to think and reflect on the evil he has committed, as now he and his family are in an awful state.

these people dont think before they act..

I blame thjis completely on the dad, these people have no idea how to bring up the children in a non-muslim society... If one of you children want to leave islam then you as th e parent are at fault.
##########
take care
zak

Sam, I beg your pardon to intrude - indeed, I would beg with both hands were that required - but precisely what relevance is there would knowing what Stewart would have done? Is he trying to leave islam also? Should the girl have carefully snuck away, then proclaimed her conversion? Why? Why should that be the 'accepted' manner? Should she bend her behaviour to suit the scruples of a religion she doesn't believe in? Should Australia?

You have yet to condemn the penalty for apostacy - and such condemnation should be unequivocal and complete. Why have you not done so here? And am I right in thinking your father is in fact a religious leader of some note?

Geoff

No my father is a very nonreligious and placid retired doctor, who actually worked in a slum in Bombay.

I can't remember the last time he went for prayer actually.

*edit: who is this religious person of note, btw? And why did you think he was my father?*

And of course I condemn the killing of apostates. If you remember we've had this conversation before.

Sam, I beg your pardon to intrude - indeed, I would beg with both hands were that required - but precisely what relevance is there would knowing what Stewart would have done? Is he trying to leave islam also? Should the girl have carefully snuck away, then proclaimed her conversion? Why? Why should that be the 'accepted' manner? Should she bend her behaviour to suit the scruples of a religion she doesn't believe in? Should Australia?

You have yet to condemn the penalty for apostacy - and such condemnation should be unequivocal and complete. Why have you not done so here? And am I right in thinking your father is in fact a religious leader of some note?

Geoff

hi geoff

perhaps you could also lend your advice to Gondolin who not so recenlty started a thread about his new religious beliefs..,

People were advising him to runawya to the nearest town and to not to openly say he has changed from a christian to an atheist.

I am sure he would welcome your advice

##########
take care
Zak

this is indeed an extremely awful act... the father must be menatlly deranged to have not seen thrugh the logic of his actions.. And the pooor daughter, this is so sad, how a family have to endure this.. And the mum how brave of her, as she gavce her own life for her daughter.

Did she, though? The quote was "they're trying to kill me", not "he's trying to kill me". The report does not seem to support this view, but rather suggests that they were on-side with the punishment.

I blame thjis completely on the dad, these people have no idea how to bring up the children in a non-muslim society... If one of you children want to leave islam then you as th e parent are at fault.

This, regrettably, would seem to be the core of the issue - "fault". Why is there "fault" being ascribed here? What "fault" is at stake? Why is the daugher leaving islam necessarily an evil? The parents above seem to have been motivated by a sense of "fault". Why?

Geoff

As for Gondolin, I would certainly try to take your suggestion in good spirit, although it seems a bit of a slight. =)

Which thread would this be?

Geoff

Sam,

I thank you for your comments. I see on reading your earlier posts that you do indeed condemn the penalty for apostacy, for which I commend you. I regret that there are not more who share your opinion - perhaps you will also agree that religious governance is not a particularly good thing? It hasn't worked out too well so far.

As for the other: merely my assumption. I thought you'd said at some point that your father was a religious leader, and that there are one or two by your family name in your area. No worries; and sincerest apologies. Mea culpa.

Geoff

Sam,

I thank you for your comments. I see on reading your earlier posts that you do indeed condemn the penalty for apostacy, for which I commend you. I regret that there are not more who share your opinion - perhaps you will also agree that religious governance is not a particularly good thing? It hasn't worked out too well so far.

As for the other: merely my assumption. I thought you'd said at some point that your father was a religious leader, and that there are one or two by your family name in your area. No worries; and sincerest apologies. Mea culpa.

Geoff

No problem Geoff,

I appreciate efforts like yours. They can only benefit Muslims.

And no, there are no religious leaders in my family. :)

More in the sharia thread.
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=1170781#post1170781
Pip pip

Sam

Did she, though? The quote was "they're trying to kill me", not "he's trying to kill me". The report does not seem to support this view, but rather suggests that they were on-side with the punishment.



i dont know geoff, i was just atgging on to somethign which baron or stu said when sam said that it was sad that the mum died... Ignore this as this is not the main issue as you rightly poitn out as below


This, regrettably, would seem to be the core of the issue - "fault". Why is there "fault" being ascribed here? What "fault" is at stake? Why is the daugher leaving islam necessarily an evil? The parents above seem to have been motivated by a sense of "fault". Why?

Geoff

Hi geoff

what i meant by this is that the father should look at himself in the mirror and think before he acts.. Sorry if i used the wrong words here.

############
take care zak

Firstly this is an isolated incidence.
Second of all what would happen to a Jewish or Xian girl in a strict religious family that converted to ... say Paganism?

What would happen to a girl if she converted to become an Atheist or, better yet, a Satanist in a small southern Xian town?


That said, my friend Reza did say that because he was born Muslim he probably would be killed by a neighbor if he moved back to Iran (if they found out he was an Atheist). Also, another ex-Muslim friend of mine seriously took me aside and told me not to debate with a Muslim Uni student I knew about Islam (that student was constantly going to his Imam about our debate) because he worried something could happen to me. I took his advice - it kind of freaked me out because I have never seen him so serious. He actually hates, with a capitol H, Islam - so it had nothing to do with the debate itself and all to do with me getting hurt.

So there is something going on here with Islam – but again similar things happen in other theistic families as well.

So there is something going on here with Islam.

Dont tell me that you've only just realised.