The statistical probability of extraterrestial life is staggering.
We have over one hundred thousand planets out there circling too many solar systems. These systems are too far away to even see what the inhabitants look like.

Man is arrogant to assume that he is the only life form capable of breaking his terrestial bonds.

We must also assume that not all aliens are bipedal. As on Earth, physical shape is determined by the environment in which the animal has evolved and lived in. Only Man's arrogance automatically assumes that all aliens are bipedal.

Let us also consider the fact that light travels at a specific speed. This speed then becomes a standard. If a Galaxy is ten thousand LY (light years) away, then any light (both ways) would be then thousand years different. that means that the aliens would have a ten thousand year advance on us and we would seem like cave men to them.

Look at the speed in which the computer has developed. since the 1980's it has grown from the 286 to a mega clock computer that can do miracles (when compared to the original PC). Now imagine ten thousand years of computer development.

Also, imagine ten thousand years of trasnportation development. what is standard to them is "alien" to us. Again, look at the car. The Model A was the first car mass produced. Since then cars have evolved to complicated machines. Also, think of space travel. Man has launched himself into space with shuttles. Man has also created Ion driven sattellites. Woud it not be intelligent to think that a potential ten thousand advanced peoples would have developed an improved transportation system?

I will end this way, "Man has yet to disocver the entire ocean floor, determine if Nessie, and The Champlaign monster actually are either hoaxes or pre-hostoric animals. If man can not answere these, then how doe he expect to say categorically "NO LIFE OUTSIDE PLANET EARTH EXISTS"?

The statistical probability of extraterrestial life is staggering.
We have over one hundred thousand planets out there circling too many solar systems. These systems are too far away to even see what the inhabitants look like.

Man is arrogant to assume that he is the only life form capable of breaking his terrestial bonds.

We must also assume that not all aliens are bipedal. As on Earth, physical shape is determined by the environment in which the animal has evolved and lived in. Only Man's arrogance automatically assumes that all aliens are bipedal.

Let us also consider the fact that light travels at a specific speed. This speed then becomes a standard. If a Galaxy is ten thousand LY (light years) away, then any light (both ways) would be then thousand years different. that means that the aliens would have a ten thousand year advance on us and we would seem like cave men to them.

Look at the speed in which the computer has developed. since the 1980's it has grown from the 286 to a mega clock computer that can do miracles (when compared to the original PC). Now imagine ten thousand years of computer development.

Also, imagine ten thousand years of trasnportation development. what is standard to them is "alien" to us. Again, look at the car. The Model A was the first car mass produced. Since then cars have evolved to complicated machines. Also, think of space travel. Man has launched himself into space with shuttles. Man has also created Ion driven sattellites. Woud it not be intelligent to think that a potential ten thousand advanced peoples would have developed an improved transportation system?

I will end this way, "Man has yet to disocver the entire ocean floor, determine if Nessie, and The Champlaign monster actually are either hoaxes or pre-hostoric animals. If man can not answere these, then how doe he expect to say categorically "NO LIFE OUTSIDE PLANET EARTH EXISTS"?

You got me there........You tell us. O.K? :D

Yea, I presently believe in aliens for the sole reason that it is ignorant not to. Considering the virtual infinite amount of planets out there, ther is bound to be at least one planet containing life, life capable of interstellar communication. There is also this equation, the Drake Equation that is a pretty good equation of odds. Google it...very interesting to me.

(Wooooo, my first post back from a LONG break. It feels good)

The odds are "they" are here.

Now what?

If this is an attack on skeptics giving no credit to theories about ET visitng Earth, it faels. I do not deny that aliens may exist somewhere, but the chances are very, very small indeed that they are remotely near Earth.

Hence the Fermi paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox)

And please, ignore craterchains (Norval and FieryIce. They are the same person trolling.

Logical conclusions to be made:

1. extraterrestial life almost certainly exists elsewhere in the universe
2. since we have no evidence that contact has been made with ET life, some possibilities -
a. intelligent life evolving is extremely rare
b. contact has been made but is being kept secret from the public
c. distances in the universe are so vast, communication/discovery is very difficult

Logical conclusions to be made:

1. extraterrestial life almost certainly exists elsewhere in the universe
2. since we have no evidence that contact has been made with ET life, some possibilities -
a. intelligent life evolving is extremely rare
b. contact has been made but is being kept secret from the public
c. distances in the universe are so vast, communication/discovery is very difficult

You forgot #3. 'No' intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe. That can be a logical assumption too:D

The FACT is "they" are here.
On this forum.

What better way to interact with humans for the humanoidal hemroidal demons?

*big cheesy grins here*

The fact is logically, some life form MUST exist in the universe (billions of galaxies, each of with billions of solar systems). Logically, given the age of the universe and the fact of evolution, there must be some intelligent life (given billions of years of evolution).

The only question is whether its possible to travel to other galaxies and whether aliens have visited us or not.

The fact is logically, some life form MUST exist in the universe (billions of galaxies, each of with billions of solar systems). Logically, given the age of the universe and the fact of evolution, there must be some intelligent life (given billions of years of evolution).

The only question is whether its possible to travel to other galaxies and whether aliens have visited us or not.

Answer is: Probably 'No'. :D

Ah, Novacane, you are back!

I think that it's safe to assume that the human race won't exist in 10,000 years. We're going to destory ourselves!

iLluSiON, your sadly mistaken.

Well, to throw my 2 cents...

To say that there is no chance for extraterrestrial life, intelligent or otherwise, isn't scientific. We have had some clues, in fact, that it does...granted, nothing certain, but there is always the "Well, it's so biiiiiiig!" argument.

But to say that intelligent life...intelligent life certainly exists somewhere also isn't scientific. Granted, the universe is huge, but since we have not seen it anywhere else, we must be cautious of our statements.

Yes, we are here, so that means that intelligent life is certainly possible. But looking at our own planet, it has only evolved once, and considering the amount of species that have lived here, we are more than a longshot. Even if we were to find a planet identical to ours, there is no guarantee that we'd find intelligent life there, becuase up until a few hundred thousand years ago, you couldn't even find a recognizable form of Humans on this planet.

People like Norval, who make wild claims that an interstellar war led to not only the huge craters we see in our solar system, but the evil Humans we see lurking today...(Sounds a lot like Scientology, in way, doesn't it?) are peolpe with great imaginations who have forgotten these most simple facts. Drawing a conclusion like "These craters are proof of an interstellar war which resulted in the banishment of the losing side to planet earth, where they still roam and preach their evil messages of debunkery to the believers" is kind of insane. Well, not insane, but very, very outrageous, and completely improbable.

Not impossible, but how does one reach a conclusion like that?

Anyway, I think the safest, most logical answer to the question is "I don't know" because honestly, that's the only true answer. We haven't seen aliens, we haven't been visited by aliens (that we know of), and we haven't found them elsewhere, even in microbe form.

I'd like to find out that they're out there someday...I just know that it hasn't happened yet.

JD

Let us also consider the fact that light travels at a specific speed. This speed then becomes a standard. If a Galaxy is ten thousand LY (light years) away, then any light (both ways) would be then thousand years different. that means that the aliens would have a ten thousand year advance on us and we would seem like cave men to them.
It seems what you are trying to say is that although we don't see life on other planets, it may be there at present, since it takes so long for the light to reach us?

Actually, our light telescopes have only recently even seen an extra-solar planet, much less attain the resolution to detect civilizations there.

I think it is likely that life exists somewhere besides Earth, but that it is very unlikely it has traveled here in a vehicle. Organic molecules or spores may be another matter.

I don't think anyone has ever ruled out the possibility of life existing somewhere else in the universe (if not multiple somewheres). The main commentary thats usually based on peoples fanatical conclusion that "...aliens are among us now" is that it's extremely unlikely and as soon as they contort views of global conspiracies of governments or groups of people controlling the world to hide aliens.... well they are beyond being reasoned with.

I think Stryder hit the nail on the head.

The people who are Believers tend to take the very same approach to their theories as religious people take to theirs; they hold true to theories which cannot be tested, and therefore cannot be disproven.

Like the Norval War, which I referenced to in my last post, is a story which cannot be proven false or true no matter how much testing we do, because there will always be some other cooked-up story to back it up. They call us the debunkers, and yet they hold to things where their sole means of "proof" is that "the government is covering it up."

How do you argue that? It's like telling someone to disprove the fact that you spit a french fry out of your window on the highway two weeks ago.

JD

Put it this way. When was the last time we recieved a 'confirmed' radio signal from another intelligent civilization from another solar system? 'WOW'! I just can't remember.

...are you being sarcastic, because WOW was never confirmed.

...are you being sarcastic, because WOW was never confirmed.

'WOW' was never dismissed as a possibility either. :D

Yeah...but dude...it was kinda dismissed as "proof" seeing as how it did not meet the standards that SETI had set for such a finding. The man who found it, Jerry Ehman, says himself that he doubts it is of extraterrestrial origin. He says that if it was, "We should have seen it again when we looked for it 50 times. Something suggests it was an Earth-bound signal that simply got reflected off a piece of space debris."

So pthhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhttttttt. There.

JD

O.K. Prove it wasn't a message from ET. Rightttttttttttt. You can't. Even the discoverer Jerry Ehman can't either. That's why the 'WOW Signal' is still an enigma. And even today the scientific community is still 'undecided' on whether or not the 'WOW Signal' after 29 years since it was detected in 1977 by the now defunct Ohio State Radio Telescope was a real alien radio signal from someone or something from deep space. For all you SETI lovers out there, keep trying though. :D

kinda dismissed as "proof" seeing as how it did not meet the standards that SETI had set for such a finding. The man who found it, Jerry Ehman, says himself that he doubts it is of extraterrestrial origin. He says that if it was, "We should have seen it again when we looked for it 50 times. Something suggests it was an Earth-bound signal that simply got reflected off a piece of space debris."

So pthhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhttttttt. There.


All sounds rather uncertain. An attitude that is frowned upon when experiencers "suggest" anything out of the ordinary but adopted as "okay" when skeptics want to "emphasize" without "proof". There.

All sounds rather uncertain. An attitude that is frowned upon when experiencers "suggest" anything out of the ordinary but adopted as "okay" when skeptics want to "emphasize" without "proof".

How is it proof? You forget that the burden of proof is on the claimant, not me. I'm not trying to prove anything here. All I did was tell you what the man himself said about his own discovery.

O.K. Prove it wasn't a message from ET. Rightttttttttttt. You can't. Even the discoverer Jerry Ehman can't either. That's why the 'WOW Signal' is still an enigma. And even today the scientific community is still 'undecided' on whether or not the 'WOW Signal' after 29 years since it was detected in 1977 by the now defunct Ohio State Radio Telescope was a real alien radio signal from someone or something from deep space.

I can't prove it wasn't from an "ET", but you also can't prove that it was. Not only that, but it completely failed the tests that were supposed to do exactly that--prove its deep space origin.

If the signal had originated in space, it should have been picked up 5 seconds later by the next beam they were using to search. Also, they are supposed to point the reciever away, and then point it back at the same spot, and when the signal is found again, it is supposed to prove the signal's unearthly origin (and when that DOESN'T happen, it lends to the theory that the signal is merely something from Earth that has been reflected back at us thanks to space debris or something of that effect). Yet, if failed that test as well. The only thing the WOW! signal did was manage to be the strongest signal they had recorded, and the pattern held true to what would be most likely to come from an extraterrestrial origin.

If I sound uncertain, as you say, it's because I am. I, of course, am not sure if the WOW! signal was from ET or not, but I do tell you that it failed to meet any of the requirements for an ET signal, save the fact that it was so strong, and also, the man who found it, the man who believes that aliens exist and are most likely trying to contact someone, who has dedicated a good portion of his life to the search, does not believe that the signal was as fantastic as he had first thought. Even he said that it was most likely something else. And seeing as he has spent so many years in that field, listening and recording sound, I would say he's in a pretty good position to say so.

He cannot disprove its extraterrestrial origins, but he can make an educated guess, and form a theory based on the information he has. His conclusion is that it's bunk. That's good enough for me. It's the rest of you who have a problem with it, because you refuse to believe that there's a chance we're not being visited or contacted in some way. Grow up. Get over it.

JD

Sounds like a broken record...........Judge for yourselves.

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_shostak_wow_021205.html

All I did was tell you what the man himself said about his own discovery.Fink. You were paraphrasing and then emphatically crowed:So pthhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhttttttt. There.

JDI could almost see your pink tongue sticking out.


I can't prove it wasn't from an "ET", but you also can't prove that it was.That's just the point. Presto.

But who needs outdated techie nuts and bolts like SETI anyways when the real thing is a one-on-one fling. And when that happens, who bloody cares about proving "it" on a peudoscience forum!

Fink. You were paraphrasing and then emphatically crowed:

Actually, I gave you a direct quote. Read my posts before you start replying. And that's real mature, you asshole; let's start with the name-calling.

That's just the point. Presto

You're misunderstanding me (as usual). The point I was making was that you guys tend to mistake the fact that you can't disprove a certain thing for proof. When Novacane mentioned:

Put it this way. When was the last time we recieved a 'confirmed' radio signal from another intelligent civilization from another solar system? 'WOW'! I just can't remember.

I simply said that it wasn't really proof since it wasn't confirmed.

You can all make claims that science is supposedly "undecided" about whether or not the signal was extraterrestrial in origin or not, but that's not the case. The signal was intriguing, but not proof.

The goal isn't to disprove something...it is to prove something. The burden is on the claimant. It's ignorant to say that it "hasn't been ruled out as extraterrestrial" for the simple fact that it was never ruled in! Until you prove it, it is mere speculation. The signal could just as easily have been a reflection of noise from Earth off of something in space, or noise from space.

That means what? That it isn't evidence, and it isn't proof. It was an event that raised eyebrows, because it fit one of the specific models for an interstellar radio transmission, but it also fails as either proof or evidence because it failed to meet any of the other requirements.

JD

I began this argument with a logical statement.

It then branched off into a multitude of arguments.
that is good.

As for ET's visiting us, South West Indian folklore have "beings of great power" visiting them. folklore usually is based upon some truth. the amount of truth depends upon many factors (such as the original source and more)
As for the signals, I will re-state the technological gap. the Aliens may have a technology that we can not understand.
To put this another way, Africans beating on a log may compare to the soldier using a state of the art sat phone. the two can not understand each other and thus one may seem like "noise". the complete technological gap may "mask" the real message.
the true sign (in my opinion) to signals lies in the repetitive nature of the signal. We sent a probe into space with the following things
1. A chart of our system
2. biological nature of Mankind
3. Some historical data
4. other data etc... necessary for an ET to decipher

this would be like using a 5 1/4 disk. The potential ET would then be forced to find a way to translate it's technology so they can read the 5 1/4 disk. Some data will be lost. Any intelligent species would then want to visit the origin of this disk. Curiousity would be a most compelling reason. this is (of course) hypothetical and not proven, but curiousity propells mankind to explore, would it not be the same for an intelligent ET? Intelligence does provide for this curiousity.

1. If not for just seeing this "primitive" species (mankind), the ET would want to visit Earth.
2. The ET may want to see how far mankind has progressed.
3. If Mankind has progressed enough, then maybe he would be invited into some organization.
4. If mankind does not meet the technological developement, then maybe the ET would hold off this invitation until man does develope.
5. The ET would have monitored mankind and tracked his developement.

All the above are just hypothetical arguments, but they are valid ones.
Nature may repeat a signal, but it does not do it at a continued rate. Nature mixes and matches the signal.

SETI has been downgraded as "UFO and ET kooks" that is unfortunate. they may have some data we need to finally resolve this issue, but Formal Science has downgraded them as "UFO and ET kooks"
As for these other arguments, I must look into them.

btw, WOW can't be used as proof, recieving a signal is one thing but what you really want is intelligent telemetry like a Phone call where two parties respond to one another. The WOW waveformation was shortlived and had no "Communication" attached to it.

btw, WOW can't be used as proof, recieving a signal is one thing but what you really want is intelligent telemetry like a Phone call where two parties respond to one another. The WOW waveformation was shortlived and had no "Communication" attached to it.

No one said the 'WOW Signal' did. :D

The statistical probability of extraterrestial life is staggering.
We have over one hundred thousand planets out there circling too many solar systems. These systems are too far away to even see what the inhabitants look like.

Man is arrogant to assume that he is the only life form capable of breaking his terrestial bonds.

We must also assume that not all aliens are bipedal. As on Earth, physical shape is determined by the environment in which the animal has evolved and lived in. Only Man's arrogance automatically assumes that all aliens are bipedal.

Let us also consider the fact that light travels at a specific speed. This speed then becomes a standard. If a Galaxy is ten thousand LY (light years) away, then any light (both ways) would be then thousand years different. that means that the aliens would have a ten thousand year advance on us and we would seem like cave men to them.

Look at the speed in which the computer has developed. since the 1980's it has grown from the 286 to a mega clock computer that can do miracles (when compared to the original PC). Now imagine ten thousand years of computer development.

Also, imagine ten thousand years of trasnportation development. what is standard to them is "alien" to us. Again, look at the car. The Model A was the first car mass produced. Since then cars have evolved to complicated machines. Also, think of space travel. Man has launched himself into space with shuttles. Man has also created Ion driven sattellites. Woud it not be intelligent to think that a potential ten thousand advanced peoples would have developed an improved transportation system?

I will end this way, "Man has yet to disocver the entire ocean floor, determine if Nessie, and The Champlaign monster actually are either hoaxes or pre-hostoric animals. If man can not answere these, then how doe he expect to say categorically "NO LIFE OUTSIDE PLANET EARTH EXISTS"?

Well, Actually, I forget which astronomer said it, But one did say something to the effect that there was most certainly life out there, but the distance is far too great for them to ever come in contact or communication with us. Most people who understand to a degree the idea of using light speed as a method of travel, would agree with this. You also however need to understand that with the probability that we will someday, Possibly come in contact with an alien race, that there is a greater probability that we will not. You're thinking of it as "we exist, so there must be others" But every other time, every other possible chance for a complex organism to come to life on another planet that did not come to fruition, there was no one there to think "There must be others".

The Neanderthals got it right, didn't they.

I do not believe the speed of light is the fastest speed possible. There are many ways to possibly travel faster, wormholes, instant remanifestation too the place of desired destination. Also im no physicist but with if a craft negated its gravity to 0 then there would be no mass for Einstein's theory to require infinite energy to overcome right? And what about zero point energy, its supposed to be infinite iirc, so as long as you had a method to tap into it you would then have infinite energy available anyway.
Peace

I do not believe the speed of light is the fastest speed possible. There are many ways to possibly travel faster, wormholes, instant remanifestation too the place of desired destination. Also im no physicist but with if a craft negated its gravity to 0 then there would be no mass for Einstein's theory to require infinite energy to overcome right? And what about zero point energy, its supposed to be infinite iirc, so as long as you had a method to tap into it you would then have infinite energy available anyway.
Peace

Right now, I recommend just building a big mother craft filled with a bunch of mute retarded midgets (they take up less space) and toss in a soon-to-be retired two-term Republican president for good measure and then send them on to Alpha Centauri. One giant step for mankind:D

Also im no physicist but with if a craft negated its gravity to 0 then there would be no mass for Einstein's theory to require infinite energy to overcome right?

There is no such thing as "Negative Gravity", however there are ways to create things to float using either Electromagnetic's or other frequencies by matricing. A simple explaination is to take a sheet of A4 paper and understand that it represents space. If you hold the sheet at both ends and then place a heavy weight in the middle, the likelihood is the paper will tear. However if you fold the paper to make a concertina pattern, you can stand that same weight on the folded paper and the paper will carry the load.

Gravity distorts space while other frequencies of light and sound are actual distortions of space. The higher the density of the distortion the greater the apposing force to mass.

Ok, where do I begin...I'll reply to Kawika first.

As for ET's visiting us, South West Indian folklore have "beings of great power" visiting them. folklore usually is based upon some truth. the amount of truth depends upon many factors (such as the original source and more)

Ok, so I won't jump to conclusions about that comment. I read it at first like you were saying that because there are records of early civilizations dealing with "beings of higher power" that ET must have visited us, but upon a second inspection, I don't think that's what you're saying. What I think you're saying is that because we have these accounts, there is always the possibility that perhaps we have been visited.

I can live with that. But at the same time, I really don't agree with the mentality of "Well, that's a total possibility, so let's leave it at that" and I don't like it because just taking something at value isn't scientific. I know that sounds really arrogant, but what I meant by it was that you aren't trying to understand anything if you aren't constantly questioning, and I think that if we all just say "The South West Indians said so...so maybe..." then we aren't going to investigate further. Personally, I think those accounts are either folklore or myth, and while those have some roots in truth, they all take wild leaps into fiction, and I think the leap comes at the point of these beings having "Great Powers".

As for the signals, I will re-state the technological gap. the Aliens may have a technology that we can not understand.

First, we dont' know if there are any intelligent beings at all in the universe. We assume that there are, and it's a fairly safe assumption when taking into account the size and scope of the universe, but it is still only an assumption. Second, there is a very annoying trend in the ET believership, and it's that these aliens must be both much older than us, and much more advanced than us. While I agree that assuming that there is intelligence elsewhere in the universe is a safe one, I don't agree that said intelligence has to be more advanced than we are.

I think that this belief system is a human archetype. Man must believe that there is something greater than He. I think that much in the same way the various religious sects and their gods were born from humanity's lack of understanding regrarding the wonders of the natural world around them, extraterrestrials have become the new God. Don't laugh, because it makes sense. Just look at some of the popular beliefs in the UFO world! Many people in fact believe that aliens might have seeded our planet, while others actually believe that we are nothing more than a harvest in a greater galactic farm run by huge aliens...it's true! People really believe this! In a world where we pretty much know what's what, the only way to find something superior to humanity, we must look now (and can look now) to the stars.

If you read religious texts, the place that is referred to as "heaven" is the sky. Heaven is always up , if you haven't noticed, and now, since we can see clearly that Heaven isn't up there, we have to take the next step...advanced extraterrestrial life.

It is widely accepted by scholars and scientists and skeptics alike that life must exist elsewhere, even intelligent life, but no one even considers that perhaps we are the most advanced. Perhaps we are the oldest, or, at the very least, the oldest remaining civilization. Nobody ever says that. It's funny how I will most likely be called crazy for making that statement, and yet everyone will accept when someone says "There are aliens with rayguns who are sending radio transmissions to Earth."

And a little bit on SETI...I hope everyone understands that we aren't expecting a communication from ET through SETI...it's widely understood that if there were to be a signal caught, we would not be able to understand it. That is why there are protocols in place to determine the non-natural nature of the signals...we are only looking (and hoping) for a signal that is clearly artificial, not something we can decode and decipher, because that is not going to happen.

Even the little thing we launched into space with our "information" on it...we aren't (or shouldn't be) expecting an alien species to find it and play the disk, or read the words, or understand it in the slightest...what will be clear if it were to be found by someone is that it is in fact artificial. The message isn't important, the physical object is.

JD

There is no doubt that what "we" would deem alien life already exists above earths atmosphere as well as below our Oceans, On the Moon, Mars, Venus and most likely through out our solar system..

Like a bunch of chimpanzee's the world has jumped to the DOD's (dept of defense's) Monkee show called Nasa.. With Amazing abilities in planetary Rocketry..along with understandings of Planetary dynamics . When the defense dept wanted a great jet, they hired Lockheed Martin,Grumman, why not Kodak for their camera's..

Fortunately with new privately owned telescopes reality may come about to the masses.

Hey theres a moon out tonight :o

Well, Actually, I forget which astronomer said it, But one did say something to the effect that there was most certainly life out there, but the distance is far too great for them to ever come in contact or communication with us. Most people who understand to a degree the idea of using light speed as a method of travel, would agree with this

Well, joojoospaceape, I agree with that. You kind of have to imagine that there is a star somewhere out there that has a planet in its orbit that is harboring life as we speak. If we are here, like you say, then there must be life elsewhere.

But I don't think that we've been visited. If an alien race that is far superior to us lives in a galaxy 100 million light years from here, (or even 1 thousand light years from here...hell, 500 light years from here) the chances that they have been here are near zero. Let's even assume that this advanced race has light speed travel capabilities (which they don't) then the distances between us are far, far, far too great.

And with all the supposed UFO sightings, people believe that aliens are visiting us and doing so on a regular basis. But to that, I have to say that even if there was an alien race living in the Andromeda Galaxy, what makes everyone think that they'd have the resources to travel here, and to do so with such regularity. I don't care how advanced this alien race is, there are still things that must come with civilization that they aren't immune to, such as government and money. Even if an alien race had the capabilities to get to Earth in a decent amount of time, (a year or two) why does everyone think that it's happening? A trip from a planet in the Andromeda Galaxy to the Milky Way would have to be incredibly expensive, wouldn't it?

There are too many factors for visitation to be possible. Distance being one, resources being another, and the theories which state FTL (Faster than light travel) is pretty much impossible, at least for matter, and even for something with zero mass, it's never been proven.

JD

There is no doubt that what "we" would deem alien life already exists above earths atmosphere as well as below our Oceans, On the Moon, Mars, Venus and most likely through out our solar system..

How do you mean that? Alien life as in life that exists despite being in what we would consider unlivable conditions? If that's what you mean, then we've already found life in places like that. But we wouldn't consider that "alien", rather, we have just stated that life can live in even some of the most extreme places, under the most extreme conditions.

I don't think anyone is doubting the notion that life can exist in many places where we had (or still) previously think it is impossible. We've found cases of extreme life on Earth, so it's a known possibility that life can find a way to survive, and even thrive, in almost any condition.

Fortunately with new privately owned telescopes reality may come about to the masses

I don't understand what you mean? Are you saying that NASA is covering up the idea that there is in fact alien life on the Moon, Mars and Venus? Well, if that's what you're saying, you're wrong. NASA is an underfunded organization which would kill for a find such as alien life, even in microbe or fossil form. I don't believe for one second that they would hide a discovery of that magnitude. If NASA found life on the Moon, it would be known. And to calm you conspiricy theory freaks, I'm not talking about intelligent life. If they were to find microbes on Mars or the Moon, they'd tell everyone.

And for that matter, there's no reason to hide the discovery of intelligent life, either. Imagine the funding, both governmental and private, a group like NASA would recieve if they discovered that there was an intelligent (even advanced...or even simplistic) form of life on another planet! It's stupid to imagine that the governments of the world would hide that. And just because everyone thinks America would hide it, we aren't the only nation in the world. If Russia were to make the discovery, or England, or Poland, or whoever, they would tell, and it would get to us here. The American government can't keep us from hearing it.

JD

I think it's close to impossible that there is not other life somewhere. It would be very different life though, I doubt that we would even be able to eat that other life. If we could, there would be different nutrients in them, so it would change our digestive system quite a bit in a few centuries. It's impossible to travel to other planets within a single lifetime. Also, I think life would develope uniquely on every planet, because of different resources, ect. I think semitry(sp?) would be unique to our planet, so alien life would probably not be symmetrical. Not that we will ever get the funding and escape our ignorance and regulate mating and food rations enough to go to another planet.

It would be very different life though, I doubt that we would even be able to eat that other life. If we could, there would be different nutrients in them, so it would change our digestive system quite a bit in a few centuries.

...what the hell are you talking about? Where the hell do you get this idea?

It's impossible to travel to other planets within a single lifetime

Um, wrong.

I think life would develope uniquely on every planet, because of different resources, ect. I think semitry(sp?) would be unique to our planet, so alien life would probably not be symmetrical.

OK, so life isn't unique to Earth, but symmetry is? I don't think symmetry means what you think it means, pal. And again, I have to ask just where the hell you get these insane ideas, because they are, um, insane?

Not that we will ever get the funding and escape our ignorance and regulate mating and food rations enough to go to another planet.

I thought you just said it's impossible to get to another planet...man...you are out there, dude.

JD

I think it's close to impossible that there is not other life somewhere. It would be very different life though, I doubt that we would even be able to eat that other life. If we could, there would be different nutrients in them, so it would change our digestive system quite a bit in a few centuries. It's impossible to travel to other planets within a single lifetime. Also, I think life would develope uniquely on every planet, because of different resources, ect. I think semitry(sp?) would be unique to our planet, so alien life would probably not be symmetrical. Not that we will ever get the funding and escape our ignorance and regulate mating and food rations enough to go to another planet.

Cut back on the alien spinach. O.K.? :D

If this is an attack on skeptics giving no credit to theories about ET visitng Earth, it faels. I do not deny that aliens may exist somewhere, but the chances are very, very small indeed that they are remotely near Earth.

Hence the Fermi paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox)

And please, ignore craterchains (Norval and FieryIce. They are the same person trolling.


You have no basis to say that they exist anywhere.

So you think they must be out there but no way there could be here?

The only thing we have to go on is what we know of and that could be very little in the grand scheme of things. We know we are carbon based and need oxygen to live. We know we are made of stardust so we search for stars that are metal rich as those are the only ones that will give rise to planets. We can approximate the age of our sun and now the age of other suns in our solar system. It was recently found that 80% of metal rich stars are a billion years older than ours. So if there is life out there we are at the bottom 20% of the evolution ladder.

the 80% that have a head start on us (up to a billion years) just might have figured out how to get from point A to Z faster than our prehistoric minds can comprehend at this time. So when you state that there may be life out there but are for sure it could not be here is a bit of a paradox to me.

If life (intelligent or otherwise) is out there somewhere, then the obvious question is: Where is it? Why haven't we heard from it? And if it is out there and it is similiar in intelligence to us, then why are they not broadcasting their presence? Answer is: Maybe, just maybe there isn't any life (intelligent or otherwise) out there. Maybe, just maybe we might be the 'only' current so-called intelligent life in the galaxy. Forget about the rest of the universe. To distant to worry about. :D

If life (intelligent or otherwise) is out there somewhere, then the obvious question is: Where is it? Why haven't we heard from it? And if it is out there and it is similiar in intelligence to us, then why are they not broadcasting their presence?

An obvious answer would be that the signal strength originating from their home world is far too weak for us to pick up with the technology we are working with today. With regard to a interstallar species, another immediate observation would be that using radio waves for communication between stars loses its usefulness if and when a species can fire courier ships back and forth at near-light velocities. Why send an easily misunderstood telegram when you can send a really smart computer that arrives 99% as quickly as the radio message?

As for deliberately broadcasting location – that would be nuts, of course. How do you know that you’ll like what comes calling?

An obvious answer would be that the signal strength originating from their home world is far too weak for us to pick up with the technology we are working with today. With regard to a interstallar species, another immediate observation would be that using radio waves for communication between stars loses its usefulness if and when a species can fire courier ships back and forth at near-light velocities. Why send an easily misunderstood telegram when you can send a really smart computer that arrives 99% as quickly as the radio message?

As for deliberately broadcasting location – that would be nuts, of course. How do you know that you’ll like what comes calling?

The 'bottom line' is so far; 'No' hellos from ET. If they're out there, they're not saying anything even if they had the technology to do it. It's apparent that our galaxy is a pretty quiet place in terms of radio messages and emails from ET......and just maybe that's way it's going to be for a very long time :D

I agree with Novacane.

No matter what you come up with...be it that 80% of the supposed lifeforms out there are more advanced, or that the universe is teeming with intelligent species, the FACT is that they haven't communicated with us. You can preech all you like, the fact remains that we haven't heard from them. Until that day comes, we are left with pure speculation.

JD

Why does nobody consider that we may be more advanced than most life forms in space?

...what the hell are you talking about? Where the hell do you get this idea?
We eat everything else we find, don't we? The "super-earth" that someone was talking about on another thread was 7-8x the size of earth, but with supposably only twice as much gravity. This tells me that other planets in the universe have different resources for life to work off of, so life would devlope differently, and possibly be indigestable to us.
Um, wrong.
Ok, other planets capable of sustaining life naturally, by our standards.
OK, so life isn't unique to Earth, but symmetry is? I don't think symmetry means what you think it means, pal. And again, I have to ask just where the hell you get these insane ideas, because they are, um, insane?
Yes, I know what symmetry means. Please don't insult me. It's possible that, with all the variation to Earth that is likely on the seemingly infinite planets out there, symmetry woul be absent on at least a few of them

I thought you just said it's impossible to get to another planet...man...you are out there, dude.
JD
No.. I said in one lifetime. You could keep plants alive with a good electric and water supply, but it would have to be a very good supply, hence all of the funding that would be involved. With plants, humans could maintain life, as long as there were enough going to bring on another few generations. We could possibly communicate through radio signals or some other means. But again, we would need a lot of room in the ship sent out, costing a lot of money, which is why it will never happen.

Why does nobody consider that we may be more advanced than most life forms in space?

Actually, we could be classified as real 'Neanderthals' compared to another alien race on another planet in another solar system. Advanced? Who's kidding who? Compared to what? So far we haven't discovered anyone/anything else in the galaxy to even be compared too. Do you know something we don't?:D

No, I was just going by the fact that most people who posted believe that some kind of life exists, and for some reason they are super advanced compared to us.

No, I was just going by the fact that most people who posted believe that some kind of life exists, and for some reason they are super advanced compared to us.

Most people? Super advanced? Compared to what? Even the ancient egyptians were probably super advanced compared to the Neanderthals. The Neaderthals didn't have much in terms of brain power, but they survived approx. 150 thousand + years using what little intelligence they had. I guess the the best answer is; 'Where there is no or very little intelligence, there is very little or no stupidity'. :D

It comes down to statistics!! Depending on who you talk to, the universe is 12 to 15 billion years old. Humans have only been around for 40,000 years. We really are the new kids on the block. It would just be too tough a pill to swallow to believe that nothing else has evolved in all that time and space.

The universe is indeed vast. In 1924 astronomer Edwin Hubble showed that there are galaxies beyond our own. More than a half century later, the Hubble telescope has shown that there are at least 100 billion such galaxies. Our galaxy, the Milky Way, is home to at least 100 billion stars.

Planets are also plentiful. Since 1995, when the first Jupiter-sized planet outside of our solar system was found, astronomers have been able to identify about 100 more planets, all of them around 300 times more massive than Earth.

Planets really are as common as phone poles. Right now, we know that there are planets out there orbiting ten or twenty percent of the stars we look at. So far, only huge planets have been found, but it would be a big surprise if there were only big ones. I don't think anyone expects that to be the case.

Until now, the search for intelligent life has been somewhat hampered by inadequate technology—too few stars surveyed at too low a sensitivity by Earth and space-based telescopes.

Projects like the Kepler Mission and the new Allen Telescope Array, located near Mount Lassen, California, which will enable astronomers to survey 100,000 stars by 2015, should increase the odds of finding a radio signal broadcast by alien life.

Some believe that it takes very special conditions for intelligence to evolve. The late Stephen Jay Gould, the preeminent Harvard University evolutionary biologist and paleontologist, wrote that the creation of intelligence was a freak occurrence, requiring a number of specific events to occur that could never be replicated again.

First, Vega:

It comes down to statistics!! Depending on who you talk to, the universe is 12 to 15 billion years old. Humans have only been around for 40,000 years. We really are the new kids on the block. It would just be too tough a pill to swallow to believe that nothing else has evolved in all that time and space

My point is one that you touched on in your final paragraph in this post, but I'll humor myself and make the point anyway; the series of events that took place which allowed for us to be here are indeed quite extreme. Today's estimate puts the number of ELEs (Extinction-Level Events) at 5. That means that there have been five major events in history that have wiped out such a significant number of species on this planet that they make all other extinctions seem subtle. And some estimates put the number at six, while some say that we're in the middle of one right now.

360 million years ago, over what most scientist believe to be a course of as many as 20 million years, 70% of all species on Earth died. 251 million years ago, the worst Earth extinction took place, killing almost all (96%) of marine species, and 70% of all land species, including plants, insects, and animals. And the most famous one by mainstream standards happened 65 million years ago, when all the non-flying dinosaurs died.

So you have to think that our prehistoric ancestors had to survive these events, and evolve from them. The chances of that happening are staggering. I'm not going to say that it can't happen elsewhere, because it did in fact happen here, but I won't immediately say that it isn't a fair assumption to believe that every possible intelligent race in the universe is older than us.

Projects like the Kepler Mission and the new Allen Telescope Array, located near Mount Lassen, California, which will enable astronomers to survey 100,000 stars by 2015, should increase the odds of finding a radio signal broadcast by alien life.

I think that what's hampered our finding a radio broadcast from an alien species isn't technological inferiority, but the idea that if there are intelligent species out there, they aren't anywhere near us. I think the chances of finding a neighbor are small...very, very, very small.

Some believe that it takes very special conditions for intelligence to evolve. The late Stephen Jay Gould, the preeminent Harvard University evolutionary biologist and paleontologist, wrote that the creation of intelligence was a freak occurrence, requiring a number of specific events to occur that could never be replicated again.

I don't think it won't (or hasn't) happened again, I just think that we're looking at it backwards. We're these "new kids" in the cosmic block, as you put it, but the fact is that just look how long it took us to get here. I don't think it's fair to assume that just because our species is on 40,000 years old or so, that we're late bloomers, so to speak. Perhaps we're the exception, rather than the rule, or maybe we're one of only a few special cases in which a species managed to survive the cataclysmic event chain that killed off everything in their way. It's not, for me at least, hard to believe that we're special.

Now, Oniw17

Ok, other planets capable of sustaining life naturally, by our standards.

Yeah, well, that makes more sense.

Yes, I know what symmetry means. Please don't insult me. It's possible that, with all the variation to Earth that is likely on the seemingly infinite planets out there, symmetry woul be absent on at least a few of them

Well, I'm not so sure about that. The reason I freaked out about this comment was because symmetry doesn't seem to be one of those luck-of-the-draw things (such as our existance) but more of a thing that suits life as it's needed. Most animals are symmetrical in one way or another, even if the symmetry lies on the inside, and that says to me that symmetry isn't one of those rare occurances, but rather one of those things that happens because it helps. Like, in Humans, for instance, it is said that our facial symmetry is a good sign of freedom from disease, which would make us suitable for mating, thus it serves as an attractant to potential partners.

I just don't understand why you'd think something like symmetry would be absent. In the cases on Earth where there is no symmetry, such as the the Sea Sponge, it seems to be because there is no apparent need for it. They lack real tissue, and have no muscles or internal organs. They lack a circulitory system, and can reproduce both sexually and asexually. So, in every sense of the word, there is no use for symmetry in them.

It's easier to walk when you have two, four, six, eight, twelve legs on each side, rather than 10 legs on one side, and 2 on the other. That is why symmetry occurs, and that's why I would guess that it occurs anywhere there is life.

JD

The 'bottom line' is so far; 'No' hellos from ET. If they're out there, they're not saying anything even if they had the technology to do it. It's apparent that our galaxy is a pretty quiet place in terms of radio messages and emails from ET......and just maybe that's way it's going to be for a very long time

The topic has come up before. In galactic terms, we are currently deaf. The pattern in the past with all forms of research on the universe in general is that as our instruments become more sensitive, our understanding changes. No doubt the pattern will be the same here. As our hearing becomes much more acute and after listening closely for decades, then we can make some serious conclusions.

IIRC, the ability of SETI to detect signals isn't that great. If an SA-10 mod C Grumble air search radar (amongst the more powerful transmitters here on Earth) was sitting on Proxima blaring away at us, we'd be oblivious to it.

The topic has come up before. In galactic terms, we are currently deaf. The pattern in the past with all forms of research on the universe in general is that as our instruments become more sensitive, our understanding changes. No doubt the pattern will be the same here. As our hearing becomes much more acute and after listening closely for decades, then we can make some serious conclusions.

IIRC, the ability of SETI to detect signals isn't that great. If an SA-10 mod C Grumble air search radar (amongst the more powerful transmitters here on Earth) was sitting on Proxima blaring away at us, we'd be oblivious to it.

By your hypothesis, the universe and intelligent life in it (if it is there) should have evolved to a point after billions of years of evolution, where the airways should be filled with intelligent signals and messages from our so-called space brothers from other solar systems. Right now and since the 1930's we have been listening with our best state-of-the-art technology and so far?......nothing. I don't think our space brothers if they were out there (whether close or far away) and they had the technology to communicate, would be oblivious to us if that were the case. The same goes for us too.:D

By your hypothesis, the universe and intelligent life in it (if it is there) should have evolved to a point after billions of years of evolution, where the airways should be filled with intelligent signals and messages from our so-called space brothers from other solar systems. Right now and since the 1930's we have been listening with our best state-of-the-art technology and so far?......nothing. I don't think our space brothers if they were out there (whether close or far away) and they had the technology to communicate, would be oblivious to us if that were the case

Fermi’s premise is questionable because it makes a number of assumptions without any proof to back it up.

(a) The galaxy has been capable of supporting space-faring life for a sufficient period to allow it to “fill up”.
(b) That intelligent species will tend to multiply like flies.
(c) That competing space-faring species will permit one another to expand endlessly.
(d) That the equipment capable of detecting life was/is adequate to the task.
(e) That electromagnetic emissions are a satisfactory method of communication between two stars, and therefore that any star faring species would, by and large, use this method for domestic purposes.

The premise of SETI is to find signs of life from civilizations that are hoping to be discovered and are stupid enough to do the galactic equivalent of smothering themselves in blood and thrashing around in the sea. The premise is, by inspection, questionable. No civilization with any common sense would prefer to take any action which might draw an unknown faction of unknown intentions with unknown military to show up at their home world one day. Far better for them to arrive at the unknown’s planet and leave a potential enemy in the dark as to where they come from

Because of this, what SETI is actually seeking from 2,000 light years away is the signals generated by civilizations only for their own internal use, say something like JFK’s air search radar or Howard Stern’s satellite radio program.
Good luck with that.

You want my premise for the galactic model, it runs as follows. If they are here now, then they obviously do not like us. If they are not here it's because Earth was 'lucky' and has evolved a space faring species at a pace much faster than the galactic average. They they are not here and they are not there either, then the galaxy is probably a pretty bleak place of not much interest to us.

Fermi’s premise is questionable because it makes a number of assumptions without any proof to back it up.

(a) The galaxy has been capable of supporting space-faring life for a sufficient period to allow it to “fill up”.
(b) That intelligent species will tend to multiply like flies.
(c) That competing space-faring species will permit one another to expand endlessly.
(d) That the equipment capable of detecting life was/is adequate to the task.
(e) That electromagnetic emissions are a satisfactory method of communication between two stars, and therefore that any star faring species would, by and large, use this method for domestic purposes.

The premise of SETI is to find signs of life from civilizations that are hoping to be discovered and are stupid enough to do the galactic equivalent of smothering themselves in blood and thrashing around in the sea. The premise is, by inspection, questionable. No civilization with any common sense would prefer to take any action which might draw an unknown faction of unknown intentions with unknown military to show up at their home world one day. Far better for them to arrive at the unknown’s planet and leave a potential enemy in the dark as to where they come from

Because of this, what SETI is actually seeking from 2,000 light years away is the signals generated by civilizations only for their own internal use, say something like JFK’s air search radar or Howard Stern’s satellite radio program.
Good luck with that.

You want my premise for the galactic model, it runs as follows. If they are here now, then they obviously do not like us. If they are not here it's because Earth was 'lucky' and has evolved a space faring species at a pace much faster than the galactic average. They they are not here and they are not there either, then the galaxy is probably a pretty bleak place of not much interest to us.

SETI is more optimistic than I am I guess, but it certainly appears that alien civilizations if they exist out there in deep space, either have 'no' desire to communicate or 'don't' have the ability or the technology to communicate with us and just possibily they 'never' will. :D

Any species 'unable' to communicate will not even be aware of our existence. Any species 'unwilling' to communicate will probably be here already, since our own radio signals haven't even travelled 100 light years away from Earth at this point.

The difference between these two conditions to our security is chasmic. When SETI has built a solar-sized radio wave detector in 100 years, let's talk about some preliminary conclusions as to where we stand.

Any species 'unable' to communicate will not even be aware of our existence. Any species 'unwilling' to communicate will probably be here already, since our own radio signals haven't even travelled 100 light years away from Earth at this point.

The difference between these two conditions to our security is chasmic. When SETI has built a solar-sized radio wave detector in 100 years, let's talk about some preliminary conclusions as to where we stand.

It's doubtful either one of us will be around in a 100 years to have the conversation and it's even more highly probable that SETI won't be around either, because they will probably get tired of waiting for ET to send a message, especially if ET is 'not' out there or because ET technically 'can't' or ET is just 'not interested' in sending any messages anywhere. :D

Whether or not we're around to discuss it is irrelevent to the process. Discovering our place in the galaxy is going to take tens of thousands of years.

With no detections so far, it becomes clearer with each passing year that the original SETI premise is, for whatever reason, not going to detect anything of note. At the moment, the most useful ventures underway are those looking to discover whether or not life exists on Titan, Venus, etc. If life came about in more than one place in this solar system, then it becomes almost certain that it's all over the galaxy.

Whether or not we're around to discuss it is irrelevent to the process. Discovering our place in the galaxy is going to take tens of thousands of years.

With no detections so far, it becomes clearer with each passing year that the original SETI premise is, for whatever reason, not going to detect anything of note. At the moment, the most useful ventures underway are those looking to discover whether or not life exists on Titan, Venus, etc. If life came about in more than one place in this solar system, then it becomes almost certain that it's all over the galaxy.

It's probably a good bet that Titan and Venus are not going to be the vacation paradise for alien tourists that we all had originally imagined they would be. :D

I think the most important thing to come from our observations of the solar system is that while life may be a tough bastard and capable of living in certain extremes, there is still a basic formula without which it does not occur.

If I'm not mistaken, I think scientists are saying that even with liquid water under the surface of Titan, something is missing for life to have occured. Granted, it's not 100%, but the fact remains that we aren't finding life on any of these places we thought could suit it. It's sad, but it's also a very necessary discovery to improve our understanding of just where life can and can't happen.

If I'm not mistaken, I think scientists are saying that even with liquid water under the surface of Titan, something is missing for life to have occured. Granted, it's not 100%, but the fact remains that we aren't finding life on any of these places we thought could suit it. It's sad, but it's also a very necessary discovery to improve our understanding of just where life can and can't happen.

I'm not aware of any conclusive tests having been done anywhere at this date. Preliminary tests on Mars have come back negative.

Recent infrared photographs taken by the Hubble Space Telescope show large bright and dark regions on Titan's surface that may indicate the presence of continental landmasses.

In 1998, the European Space Agency's Infrared Space Observatory (ISO) detected water vapor in the atmosphere of Titan. Due to Titan's huge distance from the Sun, the surface temperatures are seemingly too cold to support liquid water.

But scientists say it is possible that an impact pool created by a comet or asteroid could maintain liquid water for as long as 1,000 years — perhaps long enough for life's chemical reactions to take place.

But scientists say it is possible that an impact pool created by a comet or asteroid could maintain liquid water for as long as 1,000 years — perhaps long enough for life's chemical reactions to take place.

I guess a simple virus, once created may also survive the conditions once the pool dries out, until it gets wet again and can carry on replicating.

I guess a simple virus, once created may also survive the conditions once the pool dries out, until it gets wet again and can carry on replicating.

Quite possible! This also depends on the nature of the virus given the state of the enviromental and geological conditions.

But scientists say it is possible that an impact pool created by a comet or asteroid could maintain liquid water for as long as 1,000 years — perhaps long enough for life's chemical reactions to take place.

If Mars (for example) had liquid water for a few billion years then there should have been some primative form of life develop there. If life only exists or existed on Earth in this solar system, then the first hurdle to the theory that life is rare is overcome. But if it is shown that life sprung up at least twice in different locations in this neck of the woods, then anyone thinking life in the galaxy is rare is probably smoking crack.

Right now it appears that there is not too much 'crack' smoking going on, at least in this galaxy anyway. :D