*Yawwwn*... Oh excuse me... In keeping with the scintilating discussions going on here now adays... *yawn*... Here is my view on the soul and spirit... I believe... the... spirit... is... zzzz zzzzzz zzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzz zzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz zzzzz zzzzz zzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz z zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz... (Like some massive 200 pound rag doll, Ekimklaw tumbles out of his chair, falling sound asleep on the floor)
*Xev walks in, slaps Mike awake, and yells:* GOD IS DEAD! There is no spirit, only matter. The "soul" is only the material brain. When we die, that's it, game over, no you can't insert a quarter and play another. There is no beyond, there is only the here and now. Edit: Religion is slave morality. While I respect a true believer in God, religion is simply a tool to manipulate the herd. How's that, Mike?
But what if you see faith as a very personal thing, a personal view or even experience on/of God? Is it still slave morality then? Nobody needs to know, nobody cares, nobody can manipulate you with your conviction.
I see religion as a symbiotic relationship between men and the Man. The Man gets control of the men, people get a psychological need fulfilled. Personal views may be a psychological need without the enslavement, however, the nature of need is that we tend to look outside for reassurance. It sounds better coming from someone else, best of all from authority.
A4Ever: Shhhh! Be veeeewwwy quiet, I'm picking fights with Elkimlaw. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! *Yells* Mike, get your fundamentalist ass in here and fight with me!
Oh man, I hope he submits to you soon. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
shit no, a4ever. far more entertaining watching them fight it out. You know who your favourite is, but you still want to see a good game. get in here mike. RUN, mike.
So... ============================================== *Xev walks in, slaps Mike awake, and yells:* GOD IS DEAD! ============================================== Ok... that takes care of the foreplay! (hehe) Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! -Mike
Mike: You liked that baby? Should I hit you again? Edit to add: Screw the foreplay, Mike, give me some nice fundie arguments to rip apart.
But Xev... ============================================== Xev wrote: There is no spirit, only matter. The "soul" is only the material brain. When we die, that's it, game over, no you can't insert a quarter and play another. There is no beyond, there is only the here and now. ============================================== But how do you know for sure? What if you are wrong? Answer me this... Would you remain on the 3rd floor of a burning building, or take a chance and leap? If you stay you would die for sure, but if you jump there is a chance of survival. Whatya say? Would you stay or jump?
Mike: No, you're avoiding the REAL question here, which is: You see, Mike, life is too short to be the mindless slave of a God who might not even exist. Even if He does, do you think he cares? Why deny yourself the pleasures of this world for the uncertain pleasures of another? You'll suffer either way. "Whole life is war and whole life is pain, and you will fight alone in your personal war" Fight, Mike, I choose to fight. So why forsake this life for an uncertain other? So you see why the true question here is not "was Pascal right?" but "You liked that baby? Should I hit you again?"
I'll just quote Paul (Hoth to you native sciforumers) - because he typed it all out before I did: ' I don't take an omniscient omnipotent omnipresent god seriously enough to call it possible (it's just a logical contradiction, I might was well call 1=2 a holy equation), but for those who do take it seriously I'd strongly suggest considering Paul's wager: Scenario #1: There is a god who wants to be worshipped. By being religious: You're stuck spending eternity with this being that treats you like dirt and demands mindless zombie-like devotion from its own creations, who it seems to have created just to bloat its own ego. Worse yet, with hundreds of religions in the world you're bound to end up worshipping the wrong one, and since this god creature cares so much about worship it's going to be very mad at you -- this being clear from its overbearing and aggressive nature in setting up the "worship me or suffer" system in the first place -- and will make your eternity as miserable as an omnipotent creature can. By being an atheist: You either simply die or you get to go spend eternity with those who weren't interested in being worship-zombies and who are likely creative and interesting and intelligent people, and who will likely enjoy much more freedom than the ones stuck up in that other place under the oppression of the control-freak god. Scenario #2: There is a god who doesn't care about being worshipped. By being religious: You get eternal happiness but probably get scolded on the way in for wasting your time on earth on worship, and perhaps you feel a little regret. By being an atheist: You get eternal happiness. Scenario #3: There is no god. By being religious: You get whatever feeling the act of worshipping gives you and then you get nothingness. By being an atheist: You get whatever you do with your life, and then you get nothingness. The only safe route is to be an atheist -- whether or not there's a god, the atheist wins in each case. The religious person has one chance to kind of win but have some regrets, and one chance to lose horribly. The atheist, on the other hand can't possibly lose... the atheist expects to end up with the neutral, but if he/she is wrong then could get a win. Totals Atheist: 2 wins, 1 neutral Religious: 1 semi-win, 1 loss, 1 neutral' Perfect. No need to 'rip the argument to pieces' - it's barely an argument anyway. -Distortion
I think your friend left out at least one common religion in his theory. What if God gave us the possiblity to experience matter because we wanted to? He does not want us to worship Him, he just gave us an opportunity. Even more: you get to decide in what form you want to experience. How do we let him know? By the way we act. The human form is the portal to return to the immaterial world, to God. All we have to do is keep our karma in balance and aim our lives to God by not focusing on matter. That way He'll know we've had enough and we want to return. I believe one billion people believe in this to some degree. It is called Hinduism, and this version is ripped form the book Hinduism for dummies Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! The point is that simplification doesn't work. There are no uberconvincing reasons for religion, there are no uberconvincing reasons for atheism.
So... ============================================== Xev wrote: Why deny yourself the pleasures of this world for the uncertain pleasures of another? ============================================== So is that some kind of proposal, Xev? (hehe) Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Mike: Well, YOU'RE the one avoiding the bloody question. Sheesh, you think I had some metaphysical point other than flirting with you? You horrid tease.
