A group of Muslim clerics told reporters in Baghdad it received letters from detainees charging that American guards broke some prisoners' legs, smashed others' fingers and forced some to sit for hours inside large freezers.
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On Sunday, the Daily News reported that sergeants at Camp Bucca allegedly lent their rooms to G.I.s for sex parties and arranged a wild mud-wrestling bout with military policewomen.
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The mud-wrestling incident happened last October and involved soldiers of the 160th and 105th Military Police battalions assigned to guard Iraqi detainees transferred from Abu Ghraib.
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Last week, in what the military described as the largest prison death toll since the U.S. invaded Iraq, soldiers of the 105th MP Battalion shot and killed four Iraqi prisoners during a riot at Camp Bucca.
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"If we are convinced there was no justification for the degree of forced used, then we want them to be tried," he said of the soldiers involved.
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http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2005/050208-bucca-abuse.htm

The liberators of Iraq are at it again, denying, denying, denying. What ever happened to those valiant American soldiers, fighters of values, and democracy? Oh yah they were fighting in mud, and whacking off, forcing Iraqi men into homosexual positions, and unleashing dogs on those people, many of which were innocent and normal Iraqi men who did no wrong. I heard something along the lines that “Karma is a bitch”, America is just another typical imperialistic occupation force doing what occupation forces do, belittle and deprive themselves of morality. Now I know that to the pundits on this site, mud wrestling is done for the national security of the United States, but I don’t see how.

just going by the title... I did a search on the net... the US military hasn't been knocked for anything recently... so this must be petty or old.

February 08, 2005

Mod edit: Personal atack

Lmao I think that kind of thing happens everywhere.. but when your the most powerfull and observed nation your shit and mistakes get noticed alot more.

I still can't believe the canadians tell us that 'they don't accidentally bomb their allies'... they don't bomb anyone...

I still can't believe the canadians tell us that 'they don't accidentally bomb their allies'... they don't bomb anyone...


exactly use them as an example.

The liberators of Iraq are at it again, denying, denying, denying. What ever happened to those valiant American soldiers, fighters of values, and democracy? Oh yah they were fighting in mud, and whacking off, forcing Iraqi men into homosexual positions, and unleashing dogs on those people, many of which were innocent and normal Iraqi men who did no wrong. I heard something along the lines that “Karma is a bitch”, America is just another typical imperialistic occupation force doing what occupation forces do, belittle and deprive themselves of morality. Now I know that to the pundits on this site, mud wrestling is done for the national security of the United States, but I don’t see how.

from the link "A spokesman for the Muslim Scholar's Association, Sheik Abdul Salam al-Kubaisi, declined to show the letters to reporters, saying that doing so might put detainees at risk."

Isnt the real risk NOT producing evidence if such things occured. Doesnt he think he already put them at risk by going to the press? Allegations without producing evidence.

No where in the article is anyone saying anyone but other soldiers mud wrestled. And personally, I dont care if they chose to do such things amongst themselves. I hope they had fun. As far as sex parties..... As long as everyone involved was consenting what do you care? There is absolutely no indication that any iraqis were involved in the "sex parties" in this article.

You riot in prison, you take a chance of being killed.

from the link "A spokesman for the Muslim Scholar's Association, Sheik Abdul Salam al-Kubaisi, declined to show the letters to reporters, saying that doing so might put detainees at risk."

And this is exactly what the crisis of confidence for the United States, she has shown that her MO has been to torture, maltreatment of the innocent and this particular camp is known for doing these things. Chances are that the US has been doing what has been told here, the only difference probably is that they aren’t taking pictures this time.

Allegations without producing evidence.

Like GITMO? Abu Gharib? I guess monkey see monkey do.

No where in the article is anyone saying anyone but other soldiers mud wrestled. And personally, I dont care if they chose to do such things amongst themselves. I hope they had fun. As far as sex parties..... As long as everyone involved was consenting what do you care? There is absolutely no indication that any iraqis were involved in the "sex parties" in this article.

Oh I know the Iraqi’s weren't involved but the fact that mud wrestling matches were taking place degrades not only military authority, professionalism, and chain of command. It is degrading to all female members of the military, and it is degrading for the US military as a bastion of hypocrisy, and according to the Red States “immorality”, I don’t care about the morality part of it, I care about the lack of professionalism. To think these ppl have ppl’s lives in their hands.

You riot in prison, you take a chance of being killed.

Was the use of force excessive that’s the question.

exactly use them as an example.
No, it's a stupid example. It's like saying people that are paralyzed don't commit violent acts... It's a silly comparison. ;)

Yeah, I've got agree that there isn't much here. The only thing of concern isA group of Muslim clerics told reporters in Baghdad it received letters from detainees charging that American guards broke some prisoners' legs, smashed others' fingers and forced some to sit for hours inside large freezers.... and that seems unsubstantiated. You'll have prisoners in most places sending such letters.

Your being too puritanical about the mud wrestling thing. Believe or not, people need to unwind once in awhile. If they are off-duty and nobody is forced to participate, then who cares.

Unless they are on-duty, calling 'unprofessionalism' is petty. These are young 20 something kids... you can't expect them to be 'on-duty' 24 hours a day. No matter what you think of their actions, they still deserve to spend their time off as they want.

Yeah, I've got agree that there isn't much here. The only thing of concern is... and that seems unsubstantiated. You'll have prisoners in most places sending such letters.

D)))SOOOO. that's IT then is it. how bloody convenient. business as usual then hey?


Your being too puritanical about the mud wrestling thing. Believe or not, people need to unwind once in awhile. If they are off-duty and nobody is forced to participate, then who cares.

Unless they are on-duty, calling 'unprofessionalism' is petty. These are young 20 something kids... you can't expect them to be 'on-duty' 24 hours a day. No matter what you think of their actions, they still deserve to spend their time off as they want.

i know, poor things. got to chill in their torture breaks spose

You'll have prisoners in most places sending such letters.

Even if untrue (which I doubt) the implications for US occupation forces would be in turn be bad, because no one believes the US anymore.

Your being too puritanical about the mud wrestling thing.

I'm being Red State.

No matter what you think of their actions, they still deserve to spend their time off as they want.

Are we so sure we want to do that. (http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/iraq/abu-ghurayb-prison-abuse-pics.htm)

Even if untrue (which I doubt) the implications for US occupation forces would be in turn be bad, because no one believes the US anymore.It may be true... but we have no idea. It should be investigated, but unless there is some proof... that's it.
I'm being Red State.That's pretty socialist. 'The red states say so' is no more reason to prevent them then it is to prevent you from having premarital sex or practicing a non-Biblical religion.
No matter what you think of their actions, they still deserve to spend their time off as they want.

Are we so sure we want to do that. (http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/iraq/abu-ghurayb-prison-abuse-pics.htm)I thought 'within legal limits' would have been rhetorical.

That's pretty socialist. 'The red states say so' is no more reason to prevent them then it is to prevent you from having premarital sex or practicing a non-Biblical religion.

No I am merely pointing out the obvious, if the US is a nation of values as so claimed by the Red States, and especially the valiant US military, how is mud wrestling moral? (I don't personally believe that)

I thought 'within legal limits' would have been rhetorical

Not in Iraq...

No I am merely pointing out the obvious, if the US is a nation of values as so claimed by the Red States, and especially the valiant US military, how is mud wrestling moral? (I don't personally believe that)Because, believe it or not, it doesn't matter if we think it is moral. Unless these people are on duty, they should have the freedom to do as they want.

Your both right.

from the link "A spokesman for the Muslim Scholar's Association, Sheik Abdul Salam al-Kubaisi, declined to show the letters to reporters, saying that doing so might put detainees at risk."

And this is exactly what the crisis of confidence for the United States, she has shown that her MO has been to torture, maltreatment of the innocent and this particular camp is known for doing these things. Chances are that the US has been doing what has been told here, the only difference probably is that they aren’t taking pictures this time.

It was not military personal that were asking for the letters. If the cleric was worried about risk to the detainess, wouldnt he be wiser to make sure the names of the men are known? The Red Cross visits that prison. Iraq's Ministry of Human Rights has access to the camp and its detainees. But then after doing a search on this particular muslim association, I find out they encouraged Iraqis to boycott the election, and they are scholars in islamic and sharia law. Oh, they are also demanding access to prisoners which has not been granted as I understood the article. Could it be this was another self serving “report”?

The case of abu gharib was an aberration from the normal conduct of people from the USA. I am sure you know this. And as the trials occur, these people are being sentenced to longer terms than I would have given out, were I to have been the final say. I would have given them about 3 years. Maybe 5. But then, they are being used as an example, rather than given a sentence that fits the crime.


Allegations without producing evidence.

Like GITMO? Abu Gharib? I guess monkey see monkey do.

GITMO is a different topic, and is being resolved via the courts. Do I agree with the GITMO process? Not entirely. Do I want to mix up different topics in this thread? No.


Oh I know the Iraqi’s weren't involved but the fact that mud wrestling matches were taking place degrades not only military authority, professionalism, and chain of command. It is degrading to all female members of the military, and it is degrading for the US military as a bastion of hypocrisy, and according to the Red States “immorality”, I don’t care about the morality part of it, I care about the lack of professionalism. To think these ppl have ppl’s lives in their hands.

Heres one about the mud wrasslers:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/07/soldier.demoted.ap/index.html

And one with pics!
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/278577p-238671c.html

Again, if a female soldier chose to "degrade herself" in your words, or "having fun", as I see it, what remains is that these people were just celebrating going home. Damn them to hell for wanting to party if you think thats right. Sheesh, she is 19 and from a Nat. Guard unit. They are called weekend warriors for a reason (nat. guard). Not a professional military person. Just a kid who hurt no one. Maybe they should have left their t-shirts on.

I am unsure what the death rate during mud wrestling is. I dont see how mud wrestlers celebrating going home and having peoples lives in their hands are in any way related. But I am quite sure, when these people enlisted, they were not asked if mud wrestling was a part of their lives, and if they had been asked, I am sure partaking in mud wrestling would not have excluded them from enlisting.



You riot in prison, you take a chance of being killed.

Was the use of force excessive that’s the question.

After doing a search on cnn for "Bucca" I came up with this:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/01/iraq.prison/index.html

and this, the earliest news release I can find on the riot:
http://www.centcom.mil/CENTCOMNews/News_Release.asp?NewsRelease=200501120.txt

As is typical in a prison riot, some prisoners are wounded by other inmates. And they are investigating whether excessive force was used.
<BR>&nbsp;

just going by the title... I did a search on the net... the US military hasn't been knocked for anything recently... so this must be petty or old.

Petty is a matter of opinion. Conservatives seem unwilling to either admit or rebuke their endorsement of such contempt for humanity. Thus, I understand that a conservative might find such issues petty.

As for old, the date is Feb. 8, 2005, and the source is the New York Daily News.

In the meantime, what did you search for? I typed "Camp Bucca" into Google and came up with a bunch of links.

• Google (http://www.google.com/search?q=camp+bucca&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)
• Google News (http://news.google.com/news?q=camp+bucca&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wn)
• Screenshot, Google News (http://homepage.mac.com/bdhilling/.cv/bdhilling/Public/BuccaScreenshot-1.jpg-binhex.hqx) (144kb .jpg download)

From the Google News search, "camp bucca":

• The Kutztown University Keystone (Feb. 12, 2005): http://keystoneonline.com/story.asp?Art_id=1191
• The Wichita Eagle (Feb. 11, 2005): http://www.kansas.com/mld/eagle/news/editorial/10868952.htm
• The New York Daily News (Feb. 6, 2005): http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/278075p-238272c.html
• The New York Daily News (Feb. 7, 2005): http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/278577p-238671c.html
• The Kansas City Star (Feb. 11, 2005; recycling Knight-Ridder wire story from New York Daily News): http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/10873020.htm?1c
• U.S. Dept. of Defense (Jan. 31, 2005): http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jan2005/n01312005_2005013109.html
• The Troy Record (Feb. 12, 2005): http://www.troyrecord.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1170&dept_id=7018&newsid=13945446&PAG=461&rfi=9

Did you mean "old" inasmuch as the stories involve incidents going back to October? Because that's not a particularly viable assignation.

At any rate, "petty" is a matter of opinion, and Google is littered with stories about these issues.

It's also worth wondering at the irony of folks in Kansas defending the unprofessional conduct of our soldiers (see Wichita Eagle link).

I still can't believe the canadians tell us that 'they don't accidentally bomb their allies'... they don't bomb anyone...

we should, your bastard pilots go on speed and bomb canadian military, IN CANADA!

As is typical in a prison riot, some prisoners are wounded by other inmates. And they are investigating whether excessive force was used.

unesscessary by nature. people do not have to kill one another. you need population control and they will no be harming one another. prison riots exist because there is over population in prisons.

ye see overpopulation sorts itself out.

I wonder why mixed mud-wrestling has not become popular in US yet ??!!!