Before I say anything else, I do want to say this: How many times have we humans been wrong? How many times have we made mistakes? How many times have we gone insane and did something that normally we wouldn't do? How many times have we miscalculated our own strength or our own ability and came out on the wrong end of what we were aiming for? The answer is infinite. We humans are constantly making wrong decisions and bad choices. We're human. None of us are perfect. In fact, machines, computers, objects we think that we have created on our own are smarter than we are in many cases.

Now, the question...How many times has the Bible been wrong? If you know anything about the Bible and what it says and what it upholds, then you're answer would all be the same. None! The Bible was written thousands (not millions, the earth hasn't really been here that long) of years ago. Did you know, that the Bible says that the earth is round? That is in the book of Leviticus, the third book. The Bible knew that before anyone else would listen to it, except for Christopher Columbus, and a few others. The Bible also tells us that the life of humans is in the blood, before anyone else would listen to it and belive that "blood-letting" would heal a person.
If you can find one instance in which the Original 1611 King James Version Bible (not the new ones who change scripture and truth to match the feelings and morals of today's "age") is wrong, then I won't believe it anymore. That's how strongly I feel about the absolute truth and inspired scriptures of the Word of God.

It's sad really, we believe scientists and "experts" who are wrong again and again and again and again and again but we won't listen to the ancient holy Book which has NEVER been wrong and NEVER will be wrong. Ever. God, the only true God, used mankind to write what He told them to, and there you have it- the Bible. God is the One who wrote the Bible- man only penned it.

With these thoughts in mind, I will say that the Bible tells us that, in the Garden of Eden, God said that we are to have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the air and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. The Bible also tells us that we are made in His image. It also tells us that we are the only beings with a soul that will live in eternity in Heaven or Hell (both real places). It also tells us, in the New Testament, that Christ told his discples that God, the heavenly father provideth for the raven and the dove and the ant, etc. and that, much more, He will provide for his best creation- man, if we will only trust in Him.

You see, our basis of "speciality" is not based on what we "invent" or what we "accomplish," because The Divine Creator has allowed us to do these things, and if He wanted to, He could allow the termites to create their own National Aeronautics and Space Administration and wood-probing rockets. Everything we do is based upon what He lets us do. We have failed to realize that nowadays. The reason we're so special and over every other being is that we have been given that authority and that place above all Creation. We didn't earn anything, we were given it. God is the one with all the authority in this universe, and if He wanted to start over and let the penguins rule the world, then He could do that, and for the rest of eterntiy we'd be sliding on our bellies in the South Pole over thick ice looking for food and regurgitating it to our young. But no, we are the dominant species of this universe, and, I believe that if there are other lifeforms on other planets, we are above them too, because God said we were. That's all that really matters. If God says something, then no matter how hard we try to make Him look like a liar, the more He's going to make us look like fools. That is true. Look at our society today. If we'd only come back to God, society would be a true state excellence. Instead of sex and money monopolizing politics and the world, we'd have the Almighty God our Father (not our mother) helping us to have a good a world as we can, before He calls us to our eternal home.

Noone can prove me wrong, hahaha, I monopolize!

It is true, the Christian God can never be wrong. This is consistent with anything that is immaterial, invisible, never makes a sound, cannot be perceived by any human senses, and does not interact with the material world in which we exist. The same definitions can be applied to any imaginary entity. In other words anything that does not exist can never be wrong, but also can never contribute anything useful to reality.

The bible on the other hand does have a number of useful historical facts and philosophical concepts, but the majority appears to be fictional imagery and mythology, especially the New Testament.

Pleasant dreaming.



[This message has been edited by Cris (edited April 22, 2000).]

Lou Gentile,

Do you have proof???

Do you belive everything you read?
If you read the report that said cigarettes were not addictive or harmfull would you belive it(don't get me wrong I'm a smoker)? Yes it is verry similar. The bible was written by people and so was that report. The only way you can say the bible was never wrong and that the events took place would be if you were there to see if the events ever happened. So try stepping off your high horse and try having a discussion not sermon.

------------------
All I know is what I understand. All I understand is what I know. :)

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited April 23, 2000).]

I don't think I need to explain why you don't believe the Bible. You're more full of it than God or the Bible ever will be. You see, athiest scientists try their best to come up with logical explanations and variations to prove the Bible wrong, but, they can't. If you knew how obsurd some of their reasoning is, you'd see the same way. Scientists suck. They have no clue. All they can study is what they see. They have no evidence for the big bang. No hard evidence for evolution. Nuttin. Of course, all we have is the Bible, but that's enough for us. We have the ability to believe, all they have to go on is hard scientific "fact" which in many cases is not fact. Anyway, the Bible is LITERAL. The flood actually took place and Jonah was swallowed by a whale and spit back up. These are not legends, these are the most hard core facts anyone will see here on this earth. That is said in the Bible too, in the New Testament, although I can't remember exactly off hand where. But I was saying the Bible has triumped victorious over all man's reasoning to date and will continue to do so. Science say things are impossible, but with God all things are possible.

I am so sick of people retreating to their intellectual powers to try their best to outrun the truth in God's Word. What makes man any more intellegent that the Bible is what I want to know. That carbon test, devised by man, may have flaws. The evolutionary scale- devised by man, HAS flaws. Etcetera etcetera. I could go on and on. The Bible has never been proven wrong and never will, I guarantee it.

The reference to where the Bible says the earth is round is...okay, I just checked the reference and I was wrong. It is not in Leviticus, but it is in Isaiah. I was confused with another verse in Leviticus that tells us the life of man is in the blood. OK. Disprove that one. Anyway, the reference in a good solid King James Version Bible is Is. 40:200.

And while I'm on this subject, check this out. Job, a man in the Bible who had no access to a telescope or space shuttle or anything like that wrote in Job 26:7 that the earth is suspended in space and the stars are innumerable (Deut. 1:10) About the time of Galileo, people thought there were about 5,000 stars in the sky, well we win again.


i win again, hehehe...

Lou,

You clearly believe that what the bible says is true and it sounds like you think we should believe it as well. So why are you so convinced of its truth? And what evidence can you show us that could convince us? You must realize that simply making assertions won’t be sufficient.

So let’s hear your reasoning.

Lou -

Nice circular arguement. Would you mind explaining why your god creates people who are incapable of believing in him? Or is that included in the catch-all, "just 'cause" answer?

Also, if you assert that mankind has been wrong over and over, what enormous arrogance possesses you to think that, of uncounted billions, YOU have it exactly right?

Regards,
FyreStar

Lou Gentile,

I may have come off a bit harsh, but I'm trying to chalange you to think. Not turn and run to a warm fuzzy blanket like a child. It is clear by your last post that you whish to "belive" so badly that you put blinders on and can not think clearly.
I am so sick of people retreating to their intellectual powers to try their best to outrun the truth in God's Word.
First I would like state that I started off in life a full blown beliver. I did not attempt to use my intellectual powers to out run or prove wrong. I simply out grew the belief, such as a child out grows santa claus. This is the warm fuzzy child's blanket I am talking about. You make such general statments. What probably happened with the above quote and the rest of your post concerning science, is that you heard a few people make out landish remarks, but your beleif in god is so frail that you that you stoped thinking and started reacting as a fearfull child. Once again I may be harsh, but I chalange you to think not to react. After all without our intellectual power we would not be able to have these computers in which we comunicate. So tell me how bad does science and my beliefs "suck" ? That was your word you chose right? Before you go off telling other people how there beliefs suck try looking at your beliefs from thier point of view. You just might see how childish they look from my end. I accualy feel sorry for you! There must be some serious pain or fear you are running from.

Ok now for the bible being 100% correct. If you go with this belief please tell me how you can feel comfortable believing in a god who has murder as demostraited below. Now rember this is not a direct quoting. It is way to long to quote word for word, and yes it comes from the King James Version.
Numbers, Chapter 16 (a summary)

Korah, Dathan, and Abiram ask Moses how he figures that the Hebrews are better off. They are still scratching the earth for sustenance, still paying a form of taxes in the form of mandatory offerings to the temple (which, according to the scriptures are usually in the form of well-prepared foods which the priests would take into the temple and give to god), and have yet to taste the "milk and honey" promised them. To boot, Moses' and Aaron's positions are more like princes than humble holy men. The resounding response from the people is "Yeah! What's up with that?"

For the record, Korah's problem is with Moses, not god.

In response, Moses and Aaron run into the temple while god opens up the earth and swallows Korah and some of his cronies. Convinced, the people shut up and apologize. That, however, is not good enough for Moses, who demands an increased offering for the infraction, which the people pay. God then asks if anybody still sides with Korah. Well, nobody raises their hands, but that's too bad. By verse 35, two hundred and fifty people are smote.

That still wasn't enough.

14,000 people, waaaay more than sided with Korah, were killed by a plague, compliments of this kind and loving god. In Chapter 17, there's still plenty more death to come, all because god was mad at somebody else. Feisty little bugger, isn't he?

One last little bite.
King James Version
That little word version can mean so much!!


[This message has been edited by 666 (edited April 23, 2000).]

And now, a monkey who needs no introduction, flies out of my ass and announces...

"HEEEEEEEEEERE'S 666!!!"

Lou,

i have to tell you i find it VERY hard to respond to you on an intellectual level. you still have yet to provide any evidense or even original arguement for your claims. yet for some reason, regardless of your extremely limited knowledge, you come here to this forum system to make the most outrageous claims that have ever been posted. most of what you say is laughable to anyone who understands the basic facts surrounding the subject area. unfortunately for you, many of these people understand a LOT more than that, and you simply won't be able keep up.

i've decided not to argue with you at the level of disproving the bible. 95% of theologists are athiests, and less than 1% of christians are converted rather than raised christian. most people that study the bible and actually understand it come to the conclusion that it cannot be taken seriously if interpreted as literal fact. however, many people that believe something all their lives are unwilling to give up that belief. what's more, people that believe something without understanding it first don't want to admit to themselves or others that their position is unfounded. most of the time they react with anger in the face of arguements and evidense which they cannot refute with logic. i pity that you do not understand christianity or the bible, and can only hope that sometime many many years from now when you go off to college, you will begin to open your mind to the evidense right in front of you.

i do, however, have to address your attacks against science. i find it very ironic that you argue against science with a computer and on a message board brought to you by science. or maybe you went to church and prayed that your posting would show up here. i think most of the people here will agree with me that nowadays the trend is more that christians are searching for ways to make the bible consistent with science, rather than science trying to keep up with the bible.

for some reason you have picked out the 2 most well proven theories in all of history to attack. every year we have to come out with new vaccines because viruses evolve right in front of us. i don't know how you can question something that you watch happen. the entire field of genetics is based on evolution and has brought us many advances. christianity cannot even begin to explain the mere existence of fossils of creatures which are halfway between humans and apes (or dinosaurs, or any fossil at all for that matter). this is not to mention the consistent progression from ape to human throughout time is amazingly acurate with carbon dating.

i don't know why you even argue against the big bang. it isn't even mutually exclusive with the bible, meaning that they could potentially both be 100% true. however, i do have to wonder what your explanantion is for why all objects in space are heading away from each other in a uniform fashion which we can trace back to one point around 15 billion years ago. you do believe in gravity, don't you lou? if the universe is not expanding, because of gravity it is contracting. and if it had not been expanding rapidly at one point, it already would have collapsed on itself.

lou, it is absurd to think that noone can prove you wrong, even when you make your own contractions. i find this especially hard to believe after your entire rant about humans always screwing up.

my last question, lou, is why do you go out of your way to say "our father(not our mother)?" what is that supposed to mean?

samus

[This message has been edited by samus (edited April 23, 2000).]

Samus~

I think he's making sure to include the Pagans in this argument with that "not our mother" comment. Pagans (such as myself) believe there are two main Dieties, a male God/Father and a female Goddess/Mother.

Since I'm virtually convinced Lou here is around 13 or so, I'm not going to bother to argue with him until he says something worth arguing about. I couldn't care less about his claims, and if anything, he's just helping make the Christians look like fools. Fortunately, most Christians have their heads on a little straighter and can at least put together a coherent argument. I'm still not convinced, mind you, but at least they have a bit more brains behind their words at least SOME of the time than Lou has demonstrated. I find Lou to be amusing rather than thought-provoking, and almost wonder if he's someone playing a trick by pretending to be such a fundie.

(MoonCat sitting back with an amused look on her face and a mocha in hand, waiting for the hilarity to continue)

Lou,

Don't be put off by these criticisms, try again to state your case but take care to justify each assertion. If you aren't accurate then expect to be crucified.

Welcome to the real world.

I have 3 teenage children and if you are as young as we think then I can readily understand your position. Don't be discouraged, but you might need to lose some pride and be prepared to be more humble. You will learn a lot simply by trying to state your case more clearly.

Have fun whatever.
Cris

Lou--

I'm sorry you missed a friend of ours. The two of you would have worked well together--much of your ideology is similar, and I'm sure you could have patched each others' gaps.

I wanted to echo one of your own statements, though: Before I say anything else, I do want to say this: How many times have we humans been wrong?

That's a very good question. You seem to follow only a single current, though, when you apply this to conclude that people are dumber than sand and plastic. But it's a good question, and while I don't have an answer in the form that "People have been wrong N times throughout history," I might be able to offer a few worthwhile aspects of the problem.

One of the first things, though, to clarify, is how you read the Bible. Literal? Literal within context? Figurative/mythologically? It's important because the method affects the criteria of correctness.

For instance: In The Psalms, there is reference to Tartessian ships disappearing over the horizon, destroyed by God's wrath; from a literalist perspective, this is not accurate, for Dr. Barry Fell, formerly of Harvard University, has been able to demonstrate that some of those very ships made it ashore in the American continents.

I might also mention that the Greeks knew the world was round.

One other thing I wanted to mention:

We didn't earn anything, we were given it. God is the one with all the authority in this universe, and if He wanted to start over and let the penguins rule the world, then He could do that, and for the rest of eterntiy we'd be sliding on our bellies in the South Pole over thick ice looking for food and regurgitating it to our young.

That's a lot of credit to give God, all things considered. Think of it this way: So God has a few options for creation, Plans A, B, and C. Plan A actually looks like what we know as reality. Plan B would put the cockroaches in charge, and Plan C would never have gotten past the dinosaurs. God chooses one plan ... is it because it is the best plan, or is it arbitrary? There is a definitive reason that transcends the fancy of a blind, stumbling god to explain why Humans landed where they did in the food chain. Otherwise, it seems we're suggesting the possibility that God "could have done better". Personally, I don't see this as too much of a psychospiritual pretzel, but the idea has never gone over well in the Christian circles I've associated with.

And one cheap potshot, 'cuz I need to:
Look at our society today. If we'd only come back to God, society would be a true state excellence. Instead of sex and money monopolizing politics and the world, we'd have the Almighty God our Father (not our mother) helping us to have a good a world as we can, before He calls us to our eternal home.

If we would only come back to God .... Truly, we would have a wonderful world, once the people "coming back to God" finished killing the hell out of everyone else. Consider, please: we won't know we've arrived until we're already there. You can truly achieve fulfillment, theoretically. Practically speaking, though, you simply need to achieve something, and then call it fulfillment. That's the more accepted way of going about God.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:


------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

........, we'd have the Almighty God our Father (not our mother),

In case anyone else is wondering I believe this is a form of christain witt. A comical way to justify sexism in the church, or homophobia...depending on the bigotry at hand. :) I had a catholic "father" not "mother" in high school who was fond of saying that very line.

BTW I read somewhere that the first translation of the bible from Greek to english was responsible for a VERY HUGE mistake in the modern christain doctrin. I think the greek word used to describe Mary (the holy MOTHER) :) had a duality to its meaning. It could have been taken to mean young and pure of heart OR virgin. Perhaps there was NO imaculate conception, but then again Lou assures us the bible is 100% correct hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I guess I'll just have to get used to being wrong, wrong, wrong......

Originally posted by Lou Gentile:

If we'd only come back to God, society would be a true state excellence. Instead of sex and money monopolizing politics and the world, we'd have the Almighty God our Father (not our mother) helping us to have a good a world as we can, before He calls us to our eternal home.


I seems like Christians have had 2000 years to try to convince the rest of the world to change. They seem to have failed quite miserably. I think it is time we chose a more appropriate and realistic system that stands a better chance of bringing peace and love to the world.

Originally posted by FyreStar:
Would you mind explaining why your god creates people who are incapable of believing in him? Or is that included in the catch-all, "just 'cause" answer?


Because if didn't have the choice to believe or not believe, deny or not deny, we would only be automatons, would we not?

God gave us the choice, because without the choice, the love for Him would not be as valuable, as true, as free choice.

Would you rather have a girlfriend that loves you freely, or one that must, under duress or cohersion?

------------------
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
-Edmund Burke

666 said:
Ok now for the bible being 100% correct. If you go with this belief please tell me how you can feel comfortable believing in a god who has murder as demostraited below. Now rember this is not a direct quoting. It is way to long to quote word for word, and yes it comes from the King James Version.


666, you say "murder", but that is misleading. Murder connotes undue harm done to a person.

You are referring to is retribution in the passage you cite. Your point is "What kind of God kills people?" Good question.

God is a loving God, but a just God.

Heard that before, huh?

Think of it another way; what kind of God would he be if he did not parcel out deserved punishment?

I think a simple example would be the parent and the spoiled child. If God did not punish, as the parent did not punish, what becomes of the child? The child will grow up self-centered, have no accountability, and will likely have contempt for his fellow man. I submit the child that is punsished grows up better adjusted, with no sociopathic behavior. Which child will grow spiritually more? The self-centered, or the one that can interact and grow thru interaction with others? Which life is the better lived?

Likewise, I believe God is the same.

Pashley--

Can I take a stab here?

Murder connotes undue harm done to a person.

This relies on human interpretations. Ask any two sides of a war. One side sees the harm as justified, the other doesn't; generally speaking, that is. We might think of Germany as the center of the Nazi evil during WWII, but to ask any of the few who witnessed and survived the Dresden firestorm, that moment of war might have been a little bit excessive.

In the case of war, I offer this merely as an example.

When humans execute a standard of God, it is still a human interpretation; this is the tragedy of various atrocities committed in the name of God, that we would rather believe our own subjective interpretations.

God is a loving God, but a just God.

This idea has the potential to lead to a kind of tyranny. Historically, it has. The idea that God is not responsible (directly) for the actions his commands inspire is a loose one that has allowed the worst sides of faith to dominate the activity of the greater church. It is in the name of God's loving justice that so many bad things have been visited upon humanity by His church.

Think of it another way; what kind of God would he be if he did not parcel out deserved punishment?

And so we come to this, which I think is generally a fair idea, except ....

Quite simply, I think this kind of idea presupposes a number of things, not the least of which is the Nature of God, but also the necessity of crime and punishment. Furthermore, the paragraphs which follow, which I believe to be in support of your assertion, carries a number of assumptions which leave us working in base images of the absolute best and worst of an idea. What if the parent is unjust? What if God is unjust? And the better-lived life will be determined A) long after the deaths of the individuals compared, and B) according to extant subjective criteria. After all, I've known people who believed themselves Christian ... and might actually have been if, say, he hadn't been a child molester. These things happen to all sorts of people, and while faith often gives people a tool to work with, it can also set incredibly restrictive boundaries which one would be forced to work within.

I might also point to a couple of SBC churches I've known of in my day which were, in the 1990's, forcing their women to wear dresses at all times, limited the manner in which women could socialize in a misogynist manner, and whose congregations were well-known for "spanking" their kids into psychiatric wrecks.

For instance, if I say that every single kid I knew in junior high and high school was seriously screwed up by their religion, I would not be exaggerating. But the problems of these kids were only partly tied to the religion. Seriously, 100% of the Christian kids I knew in junior high (public) and high school (Catholic) were messed up. I once counseled a 16 year-old who was seriously emotionally distressed because she wouldn't be a virgin on her wedding night. Not bad, except that of all the behavior I've witnessed from women raped by their fathers, the stigma of virginity and purity in the eyes of God seems to weigh more heavily than the fact that her father assaulted her. I've never understood that, but after awhile you learn to let it be that way. The point I'm after is that you can claim to bring the child up in the ways of God, but only God knows what those ways are. The handbook, as such, is apparently subjective enough that two "proper" Christians can behave exactly opposite, and both are still fulfilling God's will.

Thus it would seem that regardless of what we teach children, they will make their own choices. If we school them in the ways of Christ, they can still screw it up hugely and cost a lot of innocent people unnecessary tolls. I would assert no difference for any philosophy.

But "the life better lived" speaks nothing of the God, and much of the parents, the teachers, and the child/person themself.

But your assertion that a child might be "self-centered, have no accountability, and ... have contempt for his fellow man" is true for the atheist inasmuch as it is for the Christian, Muslim, Wiccan, or otherwise.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

[This message has been edited by tiassa (edited May 02, 2000).]

Actually, the bible is not thousands of years old. It was not canonized for the final time until about 400 B.C.E. People started recording it approximately 2500years ago, in 500C.E.

So it's true, it's all true. But their is just one thing you rat-brains forgot about-
http://www.demonologyresearch.com/DVDR/default.htm
http://www.demonologyresearch.com/DVDR/welcome.htm
http://www.demonologyresearch.com/DVDR/warnings.htm

Try this one on for size.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Bridge/1009/Notstmnt.htm

Lou,

I'll be coming in to straighten out these folks tommorow. You 've got a lot on your plate. Some are atheists, some misunderstand, some just don't want to understand! I'll take any of them on. Who wants to be first?!!!

:) :) :)

Hey Lou,

God bless you for standing up like I have. I've found you can lean on the Bible all you want; it will stand the test. Explaining it to these guys is the hard part!. Patience, a sense of humor and persistence are key!

-Patrick

I believe in creation, and I believe in God.
Of course, I believe in evolution too. This is what I mean: MICROEVOLUTION. God didn't make us evolve from monkeys, but He did allow variety in the different species. Never did one species transform into another, rather each species began a variety in itself. We have different RACES, as opposed to species. A siamese cat and a persian are both still cats. A black and white man are both still humans. The Bible, which is what I believe, states that every being reproduced AFTER ITS OWN KIND, meaning that one species did not transform into another (marcoevolution). Did I confuse anyone on that?
As far as where God came from, well, HE has always been, and always will be. no matter WHAT you believe in, be it evolution, creation or whatever, any way you go, something/Someone had to have been here first. Someone or something had to be here to bring about everything else. In the big bang theory, energy was first. In creation, God was first. You name a belief, and I guarantee it states that something or Someone was always here.

Oh, and God loves us. The last thing He wants is us to go to hell. The Bible tells me that, and that is what I believe.


Jesus told parables. That is true. With the exception of those parables, and other stories of the like told by Nathan the prophet for example, though, the Bible is ALL true! The Bible never, ever ever ever ever ever says that a person who is a good person will enherit eternal life. In fact, it says "There is none righteous, no not one." Romans 3:23 I believe. No one, without God, can make it into heaven. Sorry, that's the way God has made it. The Bible says that God is not a respector of persons. Meaning that no matter how good a person is to others, then God still shows no personal favor to them. The Bible also states that all righteousness in man's eyes is as filthy rags to God. We've all sinned; we will go to hell, or so it was that way. God sent Jesus to pay the sin debt, so now we have a way to heaven: by accepting Jesus as your Savior. If you do not do that, you are not going to heaven. That is what the Bible teaches, not me. If you have a problem with it, consult the Writer.

Sorry guys, but Noah and Adam and Eve are both true stories. I am a literalist.
In this case, there is no point in further argument.
I am a literalist; I believe the Bible in every sense of every word, and if they really are stories such as a parable, then I believe that they were taught for a reason.


It is true that the world is about 6,000 years old, as according to the Bible. So, if the Bible is right, which it IS, then how could we have evolved? It would take, theoretically of course, theoretically, so and so billion years to do that. Now I ask, how can you believe in evolution and the Bible? They're opposites, in reality. If you can't believe ALL of the Bible, how can you believe the rest? If part of it is wrong, or is simply a story, how do you know the rest of it isn't? If you can't believe the Bible then, then where do we get the idea of this "God?" As you can see, it's simple: if the Bible is wrong, then God probably would, in fact, not exist, but the Bible is RIGHT. That's what I know. The Bible has NEVER been proven wrong and never will be, I guarantee it. If you find one flaw in the Bible, and show it to me, I probably wouldn't be a Christian anymore.

This is so ironic...I'm listening to a dance techno song right now called "Evolution!" Heh, just thought I'd say that.

I just thought of something: if evolution is true, then that would mean that dinosaurs did not exist at the time of man. Would that mean that Job, who the Bible speaks of as riding "Behemoth," in fact, did not ride that dinosaur? That would mean the Bible is lying, wouldn't it? That would mean that the rest of it, also, could be wrong. If that would be the case, what basis IS there for Christianity? As you can see, I place my whole faith in the Bible. It hasn't failed me yet, and I don't think it will anytime soon.

Each: evolution, creation, and "crevolution" take faith to believe. How great it is to put my faith in what God has said, rather than what man has.


I'd like to know something: why do you guys believe that some of the stories are allegories or just stories? Where do you get that idea? Have you studied into the Bible to see evidence of that, or have you done any research on reliable material to find that answer, or do you just think it's improbable for those things to occur? Let me remind you that God will do what it takes to save His people, and He will do what He wants.
I still don't know why God would rather look like Dr. Seuss rather than the All-Powerful Creator of this Universe. Why would God lie to us by exaggerating or simply telling stories. With the exception of parables, the Bible is all true, because if it weren't, then, it's highly possible that some of the men who were penning through God's inspiration telling them what to write would've told what REALLY happened as opposed to what someone else had exaggerated elsewhere in the Holy Book. Then the Bible would contradict itself. Most things that occured in the Bible, important events, such as David and Goliath, the creation, etc. are mentioned ALL throughout the Bible. There would be someone bound to tell you what realy happened if creation was a fake story. Where is evolution told about in the Bible? I don't see it anywhere. I see that God created man as he is today, but I don't find any mention of monkeys. In FACT, I find that God made monkeys on one day, and man on another. That means that they are not the same thing, therefore if they were, then the Bible would contradict itself, and it doesn't do that. Perhaps I'm hard to follow, but I'm just stating my beliefs the best I can. Try to bear with me. Here is where the Bible states, on of the times where the Bible states that it is not written by man -

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." II Peter 1: 19-21, KJB

So, if God wrote the Bible, then it is perfect. If it is not perfect, then God is not perfect. See where I get my ideas from? Heh.

I have one question before I shut up. How do you know which is a story and which really happened? Who knows? No one can tell you that. You just have to make guesses as to which happened and which didn't. That doesn't sound too reliable to me.
You can't win this one!

Infinity--

Since there's no point in arguing ... well, thank you for relieving people of the need. ;)

Otherwise, I wanted to commend you on your words: How do you know which is a story and which really happened? Who knows? No one can tell you that. You just have to make guesses as to which happened and which didn't. That doesn't sound too reliable to me.

Truer words, perhaps, have never been spoken. :D

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Oh c'mon you two. Events that are documented or even filmed, you can doubt? :)

------------------
"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley

Pash--

Events that are documented or even filmed, you can doubt?

Fair enough. I would answer that just because something is on film doesn't mean we know what it is we've filmed.

-The Zapruder Film (Kennedy assassination)
-Ufo's (including multiple videotaped sighings in Mexico)
-The latest "Secrets of the Masked Magician" from Fox.
-"Angels" or apparitions of Christ in still-frame photography.

I won't get into pro-sports replays, because that's just a little too petty a hair to split. However, of the list above, I submit to you that all of these things have been filmed, and none of them are necessarily what we think we see. :)

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Originally posted by tiassa:

-The Zapruder Film (Kennedy assassination)


Oh yes, I forgot Kennedy was alive and well
;)


------------------
"Know Jesus, know peace; no Jesus, no peace."
-Patrick Ashley

Pash--

Methinks you missed the point ;)

--Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Infinity,

The way I see it...the Bible says it was inspired by God..BUT, God didn't write the Bible.
There are many contradictions in the Bible. However, I do believe that there is some truth to the stories...
The Bible does not save one soul, Infinity. What does??? Might I say whom??? Answer is Jesus. It is a PERSONAL relationship with Him that is KEY. You can read the Bible until you are blue in the face..to the point that you actually believe that Jesus is the Son of God...BUT, that still doesn't cut it.
Look at it this way...even according to the Bible it says that the demons believed that Jesus was the Son of God..and they trembled..but, where are they?
There is a passage in the Bible that talks about the people coming up to Jesus on judgement day saying..but, Lord, Lord...we did this in your name and that in your name etc... Jesus said depart from me for you knew me NOT. People can play church all they want...but, again, it's the personal relationship with Him that is KEY.

If the Bile was written by man and man is fallible, what makes you think they got it right?
Also, why has more blood been spilled in the name of god, i'm using lower case because i don't believe in one all powerful being, that any war recorded?

God hasnt killed more people than Hitler has.

Flash Gordon,

Show me the Damn contradictions in the Bible! If you could name me 1, then I will become an atheist!!! Try me!!!

Flash Gordon,

Show me the Damn contradictions in the Bible! If you could name me 1, then I will become an atheist!!! Try me!!!

Infinity,

Why all the hostility toward Flash? Not that it is my goal that you become an atheist, but just in case you're really interested, you will find Flash's posting on biblical contradictions on this page:

http://www.exosci.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000315-2.html

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Infinity,

Show me the Damn contradictions in the Bible! If you could name me 1, then I will become an atheist!!! Try me!!!

Hey, I am sorry that I have offended you...I really am. My goal is not for you to become an atheist...not at all. I was simply stating that, in my opinion, what is "key" is a personal relationship with Jesus..period.

If you do not mind sharing...is your relationship with Jesus based on the premise that the bible has been translated 100% correctly?


Hey, Searcher! I see you are still here and active in a lot of threads....cool! :D
Have a good one and take care!!!

How about INTERPRETED correctly? And I KNOW the answer to that question. NO! The Bible is more than just a book man, you gotta know how to use it. Remember God's will. We have been given everything we need to know in His Word. We just have trouble using it, and understanding it. That's where the personal relationship comes in. And the Holy Spirit. Ahhhhh, then it becomes much clearer, grasshoppa...

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Greetings all ~
Infinity, I never said that god killed anyone. I stated that more blood has been spilled in his name.
Why? :confused:

Originally posted by Heathen:
I stated that more blood has been spilled in his name.
Why? :confused:

Because he's stupid...stupid, stupid, stupid, STUPID!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Lori:
How about INTERPRETED correctly? And I KNOW the answer to that question. NO! The Bible is more than just a book man, you gotta know how to use it. Remember God's will. We have been given everything we need to know in His Word. We just have trouble using it, and understanding it. That's where the personal relationship comes in. And the Holy Spirit. Ahhhhh, then it becomes much clearer, grasshoppa...




Alright, that's enough out of you!!

Well maybe God should of made the Bible a little more clearly.

Look at all these contradictions...their is no excuse for this.

God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26
God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19


Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12
Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36


Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark - Gen 7:2-3
Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19

Terah's lifespan.
According to Gen 11:26, Terah was 70 when Abraham was born and Abraham was 75 when he left Haran. Therefore he lived 70 years (ie. his age when Abraham was born) plus 75 years (the age of Abraham when he left Haran - as stated in Gen 12:4). He did not live beyond this as Acts 7:4 states Terah was dead when Abraham left Haran. So 70 + 75 = 145 years in total. However, Gen 11:32 states he lived 205 years.


God promises Abraham the land of Canaan to live in - Gen 17:8
God did not allow Abraham to live in the promised land - Acts 7:5, Heb 11:8,9,13

Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 70 - Gen 46:26-27, Ex 1:5
Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 75 - Acts 7:14
Jacob was buried in a cave in Machpelah's field that was bought from Ephron the Hittite - Gen 50:13
Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought from the sons of Hamor - Acts 7:15-16

The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years - Ex 12:40
The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years - Acts 7:6

God's plague kills 24,000 - Num 25:9
God's plague kills 23,000 - 1 Cor 10:8

The Hebrews' journeying - Mount Hor (where Aaron dies), Zalmonah, Punon - Num 33:37,38,41,42
The Hebrews' journeying - Beeroth Benejaakan, Moserah (where Aaron dies), Gudgodah, Jotbathah - Deut 10:6,7

God forbids killing - Ex 20:13
God commands killing - Ex 32:27

Solomon's reign. Acts 13:16-22 numbers the years from when the Hebrews left Egypt to David beginning his reign as 40 (Wilderness) + 450 (Judges) + 40 (Saul) = 530 years. According to 1 Chron 29:27, David reigned 40 years, so Solomon became king (when David died) 530 + 40 years (of David's reign) = 570 years. However, 1 Kings 6:1 states Solomon's 4th year of rule (when he began the Temple building) was 480 years after the Hebrews left Egypt, ie. he began his rule 476 years after the Hebrews left. Therefore there is a contradiction of (570 - 476) 94 years.

Saul inquired of God, but God did not answer him - 1 Sam 28:6
Saul died because he did not seek guidance from God - 1 Chron 10:13,14

Jesse had eight children - 1 Sam 16:10-13
Jesse had seven children - 1 Chron 2:13-15

David slays Goliath - 1 Sam 17:4,7,50
Elhanan slays Goliath - 2 Sam 21:19

Joram his son, Ahaziah his son, Joash his son, Amaziah his son, Azariah his son, Jotham his son - 1 Chron 3:11,12
Joram the father of Uzziah, and Uzziah the father of Jotham - Matt 1:8,9

Asa removes the high places - 2 Chron 14:2
Asa did not remove the high places - 1 Kings 15:11-14

Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Nacon - 2 Samuel 6:6 br> Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Chidon - 1 Chron 13:9

David takes 1700 horsemen - 2 Sam 8:4
David takes 7000 horsemen - 1 Chron 18:4

David destroys 700 chariots - 2 Sam 10:18
David destroys 7000 chariots - 1 Chron 19:18

Satan incites David to number the people - 1 Chron 21:1
God incites David to number the people - 2 Sam 24:1

Joab's numbering of the army. 1,100,00 soldiers in Israel; 470,000 soldiers in Judah - 1 Chron 21:5
Joab's numbering of the army. 800,000 soldiers in Israel; 500,000 in Judah - 2 Sam 24:9

David buys the land for the altar from Ornan for 600 shekels of gold - 1 Chron 21:24-25
David buys the land for the altar from Araunah for 50 shekels - 2 Sam 24:24

Solomon had 4,000 stalls and 12,000 horsemen - 2 Chron 9:25
Solomon had 40,000 stalls and 12,000 horsemen - 1 Kings 4:26

The Temple pillars were 18 cubits - 1 Kings 7:15
The Temple pillars were 35 cubits - 2 Chron 3:15

The molten sea held 2000 baths - 1 Kings 7:23,26
The molten sea held over 3000 baths - 2 Chron 4:2,5

The importance of wisdom - Proverbs 4:7
The unimportance of wisdom - 1 Cor 1:19

The joy of wisdom - Proverbs 3:13-15
The misery of wisdom - Ecc 1:18

How the righteous suffer like the wicked - Ecc 9:2, Isaiah 57:1 How the righteous flourish - Psalm 92:12-13

No ills befall the righteous - Proverbs 12:21
How the righteous suffer - Job 12:4,6, Hebrews 11:35-37

The wicked will die prematurely and will suffer - Psalm 55:23, Proverbs 10:27, Job 18:5,11,18,19
The wicked lifespan is long and they enjoy life - Psalm 73:3-5,12, Job 21:7-9

Man is to be holy - Leviticus 11:44, 19:2, 20:7
Only God is holy - Revelation 15:4

Drinking alcohol is acceptable - Deuteronomy 14:26, John 2:7-11, 1 Timothy 5:23
Drinking alcohol is not acceptable - Proverbs 20:1, 23:31-34, Hosea 20:1

Jehoiachin was 8 years old when he began his reign - 2 Chron 36:9
Jehoiachin was 18 years old when he began his reign - 2 Kings 24:8

The captain takes 5 men of the king's council - 2 Kings 25:19
The captain takes 7 men of the king's council - Jeremiah 52:25

Baasha dies and his son Ela begins his reign over Israel - this was in the 26th year of king Asa of Judah - 1 Kings 16:6,8
In the 36th year of Asa's reign, Baasha attacks Judah - 2 Chron 16:1
NB. 2 Chron has Baasha still fighting 10 years after 1 Kings says he died!

The infancy narratives.
According to Luke 2:21-39, Jesus is taken to the Jerusalem Temple eight days after he is born; the family then go up to Nazareth. In Matthew 2:14-23, after being born the family flee in Egypt and stay there until Herod dies; even on returning, they avoid Judea and go up to Nazareth.

Jesus began ministry after John the Baptist is imprisoned - Mark 1:14,15,17
Jesus's began ministry whilst John was free and before imprisoned - John 1:28-29, 3:25-30

Jesus baptised - John 3:22
Jesus did not baptise - John 4:2

The exorcism of Legion - being 2 men - Matt 8:28
The exorcism of Legion - being 1 man - Mark 5:1,2

The healing on leaving Jericho was 1 blind man - Mark 10:46,47
The healing on leaving Jericho was 2 blind men - Matt 20:29,30

No one has ascended into heaven before Jesus - John 3:13
Elijah ascended into heaven - 2 Kings 2:11

Respect for parents taught - Exodus 20:12, Leviticus 19:3, Deuteronomy 5:16, Ephesians 6:1-2
Disrespect and rejection of parents taught - Matt 8:21- 22, 10:37, 19:29, 23:9, Luke 12:51,53, 14:26

People choose not to come to Jesus - John 5:40
People can only come to Jesus if God wills it - John 6:44

Jesus judges - John 5:22,27, 9:39, 2 Corinthians 5:10
Jesus does not judge - John 8:15, 12:47

Christians to hate their brothers - - Luke 14:26
Whoever hates their brother cannot have eternal life - 1 John 3:15

Jesus refuses to give signs - Matthew 12:38,39, Mark 8:12, Luke 11:29 Jesus did give signs - John 3:2, 20:30, Acts 2:22

Man judged/saved by faith - John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 20:31, Acts 2:21, 16:30,31, Rom 1:17, 5:1,9,11,18, 10:9, Gal 2:16, Phil 3:9, Eph 2:8,9
Man judged/saved by works and lifestyle - Psalm 62:12, Proverbs 24:12, Matthew 7:21, 16:27, 19:16,17, 25:31- 46, Luke 14;13-14, John 5:29, Acts 10:35, Rom 2:6,7,9,10, 1 Cor 3:8

One of the disciples was lost - John 17:12
None of the disciple were lost - John 18:9

Jesus refers to David eating the consecrated bread in the time of Abithar - Mark 2:25,26
In fact David ate the consecrated bread in the time of Ahimelech - 1 Sam 21:1-6

Disciples sent out not to wear sandals - Matthew 10:9,10
Disciples sent out to wear sandals - Mark 6:8,9

No man can retain the spirit after death - Eccles 8:8
Peter restores spirit of Tabitha after death - Acts 9:37,40

Believers not to worry about providing for family - Luke 14:26,33, 18:29,30
Believers must provide for family - 1 Timothy 5:8

Jesus did not bear witness to himself - John 5:31
Jesus did bear witness to himself - John 8:14,18

The law/commandments to remain for ever - Matthew 5:17-19, Luke 16:17
The law has ended - Romans 7:4, Eph 2:15, Col 2:14

Simon and Andrew's home was in Capernaum - Mark 1:21,29
Simon and Andrew's home was in the same place as Philip's - Bethsaida - John 1:44

God has given all things into Jesus' hands - John 3:35
God has not given all things into Jesus' hands - Matt 20:23, John 5:19

Everyone sins - 2 Chronicles 6:36, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Rom 3:10,12,23
Believers do not sin - 1 John 3:6,9, 5:18

The anointing and entry into Jerusalem.
Matthew and Mark detail how Jesus rode into Jerusalem in Matt 20:1-13, Mark 11:1-11. It was after this that he was anointed at Bethany - Matt 26:6-16, Mark 14:3- 11. But in John he is anointed (12:1-8) and it is after this that he rides into Jerusalem (12:12-15).

The Last Supper.
The Synoptics make it clear this was the Passover meal - Matt 26:19, Mark 14:16, Luke 22:13. However in John, the meal was held on the day before the Passover - 13:29, and states that even after the meal the Passover had still not begun - 18:28. Moreover, even after the trial, it was the Preparation day for the Passover - 19:31

Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows - Luke 22:34, John 12:38
Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows twice - Mark 14:30, 14:72

Peter is warned he will deny Jesus after the last supper and having left the upper room - Matt 26:20-34, Mark 14:17-30
Peter is warned he will deny Jesus during the last supper before leaving the upper room - Luke 22:33-39, John 13:37-38/ 18:1

Jesus' trial before the sanhedrin was at night and in morning he was taken to Pilate - Matthew 26:57-68, 27:1-2
Jesus' trial before the sanhedrin and being taken to Pilate was in the morning - Luke 22:66-71, 23:1

Simon of Cyrene carries Jesus' cross - Matthew 27:32
Jesus carries his cross - John 19:17,18

Jesus was physically descended from David - Romans 1:1- 3.
The genealogies in Matt 1:1-16 and Luke 3:23-38 both attempt to link Jesus with Joseph to give Jesus a place in the Davidic line (which was necessary for messiahship). However, if virgin born, Joseph would have had nothing to do with the conception and any physical/human descent would be through Mary: Jesus' only contact with humanity if virgin born. However, Luke 1:36 says Mary was related to Elizabeth who was of the Aaronic line (Luke 1:5), not the Davidic line. Therefore, if virgin born, Jesus did not have Davidic descent (a prerequisite for messiah- ship). Both robbers revile Jesus - Matt 27:44
Only one robber reviles Jesus and the other believes - Luke 23:41-43

Jesus tells the believing robber he will be with him in paradise that day - Luke 23:43
Jesus was in the grave following his death and did not ascend to heaven - Acts 2:24,31, John 20:17

God forsakes Jesus - Mark 15:34
Jesus is inseparable from God - John 10:30, 14:10, 16:32

The confirmation Jesus is dead.
In Mark 15:43-45, Joseph of Arimathea asks Pilate for Jesus' body, and Pilate is unaware of whether he is dead; only after sending a centurion and receiving this confirmation does he allow Joseph to take the body. However in John 19:31-33,38, Pilate actually authorises the leg-breaking to ensure they have all died and then authorises Joseph to remove the body. NB.
Mark 15:42 states it was evening, ie. the sabbath had already begun (beginning at sundown) when Joseph asks for the body. However, burial was not allowed on the sabbath, showing the fictitiousness of the story.

The Resurrection (In Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 23-24, John 20-21, Acts 1).
Who went to the tomb?
Matthew-2 Marys;
Mark-2 Marys and Salome;
Luke-at least 5 women;
John-Mary Magdalene.
Matthew-Earthquake with angel sitting outside on the recently-moved stone;
Mark-Stone already moved and a young man sitting inside;
Luke-Stone already moved with two men standing inside;
John-Stone moved. No one seen on 1st visit, but two angels sitting inside after two earlier visits.

When did the woman/women leave to go to the tomb?

Matthew-Towards dawn; Mark-Very early; Luke-At early dawn;
John-Still dark (NB. John states it was still dark when Mary arrived at the tomb).

What did man/men/angel/angels say?

Matthew-Jesus was risen and disciples to go to Galilee;
Mark-As Matthew;
Luke-Jesus had risen:
John-Asks why Mary is crying.

What do the women/woman do next?
Matthew-they run away but meet Jesus who repeats angel's instruction;
Mark-They flee and say nothing to anyone. This obviously contradicts the
other three in which the women do go and tell the disciples (original Mark ended at 16:7);
Luke-They go and tell disciples;
John-Mary meets Jesus and
they talk.

What is first conversation with the risen Jesus?
Matthew-Women on way from tomb;
Luke-The two disciples on road to Emmaus;
John-Mary Magdalene.

What was the time between the resurrection and the ascension?
Matthew-At least the time to reach Galilee (60-70 miles north);
Luke-clearly one day only (see 24:13,33,36,50 - it is made very clear that Jesus rose, made all his appearances and ascended back to heaven on the same day);
John-at least a week accepting John 20 as the original end to the Gospel, but with the John 21 appendix this means it was even longer as this has a Galilean appearance; Acts-40 days.

An attempt to reconcile John's visit of just Mary Magdalene whilst still dark with the Synoptics where there are several women and it is daytime, is by saying John's was an earlier one, ie. the one in the Synoptics was a second one. However this cannot be so as John has Mary Magdalene seeing the empty tomb (20:1) and in the Synoptics when the women go to the tomb they ask about who would roll the stone away (Mark 16:3). However Mary Magdalene was with them (Mark 16:1) and she had already seen that the stone had been moved away and therefore they would already know this from her 1st visit.

Furthermore, Luke makes any appearance at, or journey to Galilee absolutely impossible as it has everything happening in the area of Jerusalem with the disciples being told to stay there until Pentecost, and the conclusion being Jesus' ascension from nearby Bethany. This is made clear - in Luke the first appearance is to the two travelling to Emmaus (10 miles West of Jerusalem) and 24:13 states this was "that very day"; the two then go "that same hour" to the eleven in Jerusalem (24:33); Jesus then appears whilst they are still explaning what they had seen (24:36). Jesus then tells them to stay in Jerusalem until Pentecost (24:49). As Luke 24:51 has the ascension on the same day as the resurrection this prevents any Galilean appearances by Jesus to the eleven as in Matt and John.

Luke's account makes nonsense of Matt having Jesus tell the women to
instruct the disciples to go up to Galilee (Matt 28:10) if he was going to see
them himself later that day (as in Luke and John), and furthermore see them in Jerusalem. Also, Luke makes it clear that the eleven were told to stay in Jerusalem from the day of the resurrection to Pentecost, but Matt has them travelling up to Galilee (28:16) as does John (21:1ff). Important to note is Mark 16:7, ie. that the women 'said nothing to anyone' - all three Gospels contradict this by saying that they told the disciples.

Luke also has Jesus appearing to "the eleven" on the same day as the resurrection (24:33-36), but John states Thomas was missing on this appearance and it was a week later that Jesus actually appeared to all eleven - with Thomas then being present (20:24,26).

The chronology of Paul's life.
Acts
(1)Paul converted on the way to Damascus (9:1-8).
(2)He goes to Ananias in Damascus and stays there 'several days' (9:20).
(3)After 'some time'*, Paul goes to Jerusalem (9:23,26) and meets the apostles there (9:27).
(4)Paul preaches in Jerusalem, but due to threats to kill him, he is sent to Tarsus (9:30).
(5)Relief to Jerusalem and Judea taken by Paul & Barnabas (2nd visit) (11:30)
(6)Paul goes to Jerusalem (3rd time) (12:25)
(7)Paul goes to Jerusalem (3rd or 4th time) (15:1ff).

Galatians.
(1)Paul is converted (1:16).
(2)He does not go to Jerusalem, but to Arabia and then Damascus (1:17)
(3)After 3 years, Paul goes to Jerusalem, meeting only Cephas and James there (1:18-19) staying only 15 days.
(4)He then goes to the regions of Syria and Cilicia (1:21).
(5)14 years later, Paul goes to Jerusalem with Barnabas and Titus (2:1).
(6)Paul confronts Cephas at Antioch (2:11).
(7)No further information.

The 'some time' in Acts 9:19 is not clear as to how long this was; different translations render this 'some time passed' (Jerusalem), 'after a number of days' (Moffatt); the literal Greek is "'many' with the view of being sufficient"; however it is rendered, it is difficult to reconcile this with the three years of Gal 1:18.

*It is not clear whether 12:25 is a return to Jerusalem, or a return to Antioch
from Jerusalem; if the former, and the Acts 15 visit is the Gal 2:1-10 one, then in Acts it would be the fourth visit, whilst Paul states it was only the second.

Paul's method of counting in Gal. is not absolutely clear, ie. whether his 14 years in Gal 2:1 is 14 years after his starting point in Gal (ie. his conversion) or 14 years after the first Jerusalem visit 3 years after his conversion which he had mentioned immediately beforehand (ie. a total of 17 years after his conversion).

Numerous others problems arise when trying to reconcile the two accounts, eg. Acts has Paul in Jerusalem and Judea in his early life (21:17 then 22:3) and as a persecutor of the church there (7:58, 9:1-2,13,21, 26:10) which makes Paul's comment that (Gal 1:22) he was not known by sight by the churches in Judea even after his time in Jerusalem, Syria and Cilicia (1:17- 21) appear impossible. Furthermore when Paul has a dispute with Peter at Antioch about Gentile fellowship in Gal 2, why does he not remind him of what was agreed at the Acts 15 conference on this very subject ?

Abraham was justified by faith - Rom 4:1-5
Abraham was justified by works - James 2:22-24

Man does not die for his ancestors' sin - Deut 24:16, 2 Kings 14:6, Ezek 18:20
Man does die for his ancestors' sin - Ex 20:5, 34:6-7, 2 Sam 12:13-18, Isa 14:21, Rom 5:12,19, 1 Cor 15:22

Elijah and Moses appear many centuries after they died - Mark 9:2-4
Only God is immortal - 1 Tim 6:15-16

Jesus to be buried for three days and nights - Matt 12:40
Jesus buried for one day and two nights - Mark 15:42,43, John 20:1 (These texts show the burial did not take place until Friday night and the tomb was empty before Sunday morning). Jesus was therefore not in the tomb for "three days and three nights" - whether present-day or Jewish time-reckoning is used.

Jesus was the first person to rise from the dead - Acts 26:23, Rev 1:5
Jesus was not the first person to rise from the dead - 2 Kings 4:32,35, Luke 7:12-15, Matt 9:18,25, 11:5, 27:52, John 11:44

The Holy Spirit given on Easter Sunday - John 20:19,22
The Holy Spirit given at Pentecost - Acts 2:1-4

Jesus warns disciples he is to leave them - John 16:5,7,28
Jesus assures disciples he will always be with them - Matt 28:20

The Holy Spirit not given until Jesus' death - John 7:39
The Holy Spirit given before Jesus' birth - Luke 1:41,67

Judas dies by hanging himself - Matt 27:5-7
Judas dies by swelling up - Acts 1:18

Women buy anointing spices for Jesus after the sabbath - Mark 16:1
Women buy anointing spices for Jesus before the sabbath - Luke 23:56

Paul's vision. Acts 9:7 states the men with Paul STOOD speechless, HEARING the voice but NOT SEEING anyone.
Acts 22:9 states they did NOT HEAR the voice.
Acts 26:14 states they all FELL to the ground and DID HEAR the voice.

God is impartial towards people - Acts 10:34, Rom 2:11, Gal 2:8, Eph 6:9
God is partial towards people - Rom 8:29-30, 9:11-13, Matt 10:5-6, 15:22-25, Luke 1:3

Those without the law, will perish without it - Rom 2:12
Where there is no law, there can be no transgression - Rom 4:15

Salvation only available to a few who have been chosen - Matt 7:14, 22:14, Luke 12:32, 13:24, John 6:37,65, 15:16,19, Rom 8:29, 9:11-23, Eph 1:4,
Salvation available to those who want it - Matt 7:7,8, 11:28, John 3:16, 5:40, 7:37, Acts 2:21, Rev 3:20 NB. Prov 16:4 states God actually made the unsaved for 'the day of trouble' (ie. damnation). In contrast to texts that state Jesus died for the elect/a small number, there are others that confirm, or at least suggest everyone will be saved by Christ - John 1:29, 4:42, 1 Cor 15:29, Heb 2:9, 1 John 4:14.

Satan is free to act as he pleases - Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zech 3;1, Matt 4:1, 1 Pet 5:8
The angels who rebelled against God are chained up - Jude 6

James and John ask Jesus for special places in the kingdom - Mark 10:35-37
It is the mother of James and John who asks Jesus for special places for them - Matt 20:21-22

No one born of God sins - 1 John 3:9
Everyone sins - Rom 3:23, 1 John 1:8

No one is righteous - Rom 3:10
There are righteous - James 5:16

The sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable - Matt 12:32, Mark 3:29
God forgives all sins - 1 John 1:7

Love your enemies - Matt 5:44
Refuse to greet your enemies - 2 John 10: enemies are cursed by Paul - Gal 1:9: Paul asks that his enemies mutilate themselves - Gal 5:12

Those who go into the grave will never arise - Job 7:7,9, 14:10,12
Those who go into the grave will arise - John 5:28-29, 11:24, 1 Cor 15:12-18,20-23,52, Rev 20:4

The dead are unconscious - Job 14:12, Ecc 9:5, Dan 12:2
The dead are conscious - Mark 9:4, Luke 16:22-23, Rev 6:9-10

The earth will exist for ever - Ecc 1:4
The earth will be destroyed - 2 Pet 3:10

No one has ever seen God - Ex 33:17,20, John 1:18, 1 Tim 6:15-16
People have seen God - Gen 32:30, Ex 24:9-10, 33:11,21- 23, Isa 6:5, Deut 5:24, Amos 9:1

God is not responsible for confusion - 1 Cor 14:33
God is responsible for confusion - Isa 45:7

All will swear to God - Isa 45:22-23
Jesus forbids swearing - Matt 5:34

God can do anything - Mark 10:27, Luke 1:37
God is limited in what he can do - Judges 1:19, Mark 6:5-6

God wants everyone to be saved - 1 Tim 2:3-4, 2 Pet 3:9
God does not want everyone to be saved - Prov 16:4, Mark 4:11-12, Rom 9:18, 2 Thess 2:11

The returnees from Babylonian exile in 537/536 BCE.
42,360 in Ezra 2:64, but 9,818 in Ezra 2:3-60 and 31,089 in Nehemiah 7:7-65.

God is not angry for long - Psa 30:5, 103:9, Micah 7:18
God is angry for a long time - Num 32:13, Rev 14:11, 20:10

God never lies and hates lying - Ex 23:1, Num 23:19, Prov 12:22, Titus 1:2
God himself lies - 1 Kings 22:23, 2 Chron 18:22, 2 Thess 2:11

God does not repent (ie. regret an action/change his mind) - Num 23:19, 1 Sam 15:29, Mal 3:6
God does repent (ie. regret an action/change his mind) - Gen 6:6-7, Ex 32:14, 1 Sam 15:35, 2 Sam 24:16, 1 Chron 21:15, Jer 18:8,10, 26:3,13,19, 42:10, Ezek 24:14, Joel 2:13, Amos 7:3, Jonah 3:10

The earth has no foundation - Job 26:7
The earth does have foundations - 1 Sam 2:8, Psa 104:5

God feeds and cares for all life - Psa 145:15-16
God does not feed and care for all life - Deut 28:48, Isa 5:13, 8:21, 50:2

God is warlike - Ex 15:3, Psa 24:8, Rev 19:11,13
Man should be peaceful as God is - Matt 5:9, John 14:27, Rom 15:33, 2 Thess 3:16

Graven images not to be made - Ex 20:4
Graven images are to be made - Ex 25:18

The earth is God/Jesus' - Psa 24:1, 1 Cor 10:26, Rev 1:5
The earth is the devil's - John 12:31, 2 Cor 4:4

God dwells in light - Psa 104:1,2, 1 Tim 6:15-16, 1 John 1:5
God dwells in darkness - 1 Kings 8:12, 2 Chron 6:1, Psa 18:11, Psa 97:1-2

Jesus is God - John 1:1, John 20:288
Jesus is inferior/subordinate to God - John 14:28, 1 Cor 11:3, 15:28

The Synoptics have Jesus clearing the Temple at the end of his ministry (Mark 11:15-17 & par) but John has this at the very beginning (2:13-16).
Also, John has Jesus travelling back and forth between Galilee and Jerusalem but the synoptics have him starting in Galilee & making the one journey south to Jerusalem ending in his death.

God is gracious, loving, merciful, good, forgiving, and perfect - Ex 34:6, Deut 32:4, 2 Sam 22:31, Psa 86:5, 100:5, 106:1, 111:4,7, 136:1, 145:8-9, Lam 3:33, Joel 2:13, Hab 1:12-13, Mark 10:18, 1 John 4:8,16
God slaughters, is vengeful, does evil, defiles, destroys and creates woes - Ex 32:14, Num 31:1-18, Deut 2:30,34, 7:2,16, 20:10-20, 1 Sam 6:19, Job 42:11, Isa 45:7, Jer 18:5,8,11, 26:3,13,19, 42:10-11, Lam 3:38, Ezek 6:12-13, 20:25-26, Amos 3:16, Nahum 1:2, Jonah 3:10

God sees everything and is omnipresent - Psa 11:4, Prov 15:3, Job 34:21, Jer 16:17, 23:24, Heb 4:13
God does not see everything and is not omnipresent - Gen 3:9-10, 11:5, 18:20-21, Ex 3:8, 19:11, 18,20, Micah 1:3

God did not dwell in the house (Temple) Solomon built - Acts 7:48
God did dwell in the house (Temple) that Solomon built - 1 Kings 8:13

God is always near - Psa 46:1, 145:14, 18-19, James 4:8
God is not always near - 1 Sam 28:6, Psa 10:1, 22:1,2, Matt 27:46

God creates all life out of the waters - Gen 1:20-21
God creates all life out of the earth - Gen 2:19

The doers of the law will be justified - Rom 2:13
No one is justified by the law - Rom 3:20

Disciples will be persecuted and martyred - Luke 21:16, Acts 7:59-60, 8:1, Rev 6:9
Disciples will not be harmed - Luke 21:18

Christians to obey authorities - Rom 13;1, 1 Pet 2:13- 14
Christians to obey God rather than authorities - Acts 5:29

Disciples given power to cure all ills - Matt 10:1, Luke 9:1
Disciples could not cure all ills - Matt 17:18-20

Centurion goes to Jesus for his servant to be healed - Matt 8:5-13
Centurion sends elders to Jesus to ask for his servant to be healed - Luke 7:1-10

God's word and law abides for ever - Matt 5:18, 1 Pet 1:25
God's word and law has been cancelled - Eph 2:15, Col 2:14

Governors are God's ministers for the good and protect the innocent - Rom 13:1,3, 1 Pet 2:13-14
The Governor Pontius Pilate has Jesus crucified - Mark 15:15, Luke 23:11,24,25, John 19:1,6

Christ was raised a spirit being - 1 Cor 15:44-45, 1 Pet 3:18
Christ was physically raised - Luke 24:39,42-43, John 20:26-27

The coming kingdom of God will be visible - Daniel 2:44
The coming kingdom of God will not be visible - Luke 17:20-21

God is spirit - John 4:24
God has feet - Psa 18:9, arms - Jer 27:5, wings - Psa 36:7, eyes - Deut 11:12, Psa 34:15, a mouth - Isa 1:20, Deut 8:3, ears - 2 Chron 6:40, a nose - Ex 15:8, a heart - Gen 6:6, legs - Gen 3:8


The Bible teaches forgiveness - Matt 6:14-15, Rom 12:17-19, Eph 4:32, Col 3:13
The Bible teaches punishment and vengeance - Gen 9:6, Ex 21:23-25,29, Lev 24;16,23

God is one - Deut 6:4
God is plural - Gen 1:26, 11:6,7, Isa 6:8

Gen 6:4 refers to a race called the Nephilim. Later in Gen 7:11-24 there is the account of the Flood in which "every living thing" was killed (7:23) except Noah and his family: however, in Num 13:33 the Nephilim still exist.

The families of Japheth, Ham and Shem all have their own languages - Gen 10:5,20,31
There is only one language over the whole earth - Gen 11:1

It is the Midianites who sell Joseph to Potiphar - Gen 37:36
it is the Ishmaelites who sell Joseph to Potiphar - Gen 39:1

The Levites' service to be from age 30 to 50 - Num 3:3,23,30,35,39,43,47
The Levites' service to be from age 25 to 50 - Num 8:23

Sisera killed whilst asleep - Jud 4:20-21
Sisera killed whilst standing and drinking milk - Jud 5:25-27

God's attributes are unknowable - Job 11:7-9
God's attributes are knowable - Rom 1:20

Beersheba given its name by Abraham - Gen 21:31-33
Beersheba given its name by Isaac - Gen 26:32-33

Saul killed by an Amalekite - 2 Sam 1:5-10
Saul killed by Philistines - 2 Sam 21:22

There were 3300 chief officers on Temple building - 1 Kings 5:16 br> There were 3600 chief officers on Temple building - 2 Chron 2:18 p> There were 550 who had charge of the people - 1 Kings 9:23
There were 250 who had charge of the people - 2 Chron 8:10 p> Jehoshaphat removed the high places - 2 Chron 17:1,6
Jehoshaphat did not remove the high places - 2 Chron 20:31,33

Zedekiah was Jehoiachin's brother - 2 Chron 36:9-10
Zedekiah was Jehoiachin's uncle - 2 Kings 24:17

The sundial to go back 10 degrees as a sign that God would heal Hezekiah's
- 2 Kings 20:7-11
The sundial to go back 10 degrees as a sign God would defend the city
against the Assyrians -Isa 38:4-8

The rich cannot enter heaven; the kingdom of God is for the poor - Luke 6:20, Matt 19:24, James 5:1
God rewards by bestowing wealth and disciples can be rich - Job 42:10, Matt 27:57

Satan entered Judas at the last supper - John 13:27
Satan entered Judas before the last supper - Luke 22:1-3

Food offered to idols should be avoided - Acts 15:29
It is of no importance if food offered to idols is eaten - 1 Cor 8:1,4,7,8

It was those who accused Jesus and were responsible for his death who buried him - Acts 13:27-29
It was Joseph of Arimathea, a disciple, who buried Jesus - Matt 27:59-60

Christ is the only master - Matt 23:10
Employers are masters - Eph 6:5,9

There were six generations inclusive between Joram and Jotham - 1 Chron 3:11-12
There were three generations inclusive between Joram and Jotham - Matt 1:8-9

Jesus' home was at Capernaum - Mark 1:9,24, 2:1
Jesus' home was in Judea - John 4:43-45 NB. In John, Jesus leaves Jerusalem in Judea and goes to Galilee because "a prophet has no honour in his own country" - therefore Judea must have been his home country - contradicting Mark.

Believers will be deceived into leaving the faith - 1 Tim 4:1, Heb 6:4-6, Gal 3:1, Rev 2:5
God will protect believers from being led astray - Psa 31:23, 37:28,32,33, John 10:27-29

Jesus never changes - Heb 13:8
Jesus does change - he dwelt with the Father (John 17:5), was born an infant with human weaknesses (Luke 2:7,52), became separated from God (Matt 27:46), then died (Matt 27:50), was then in Hades (Acts 2:31), was then raised from the dead in a glorified body (1 Cor 15:45) and ascended into heaven where he mediates (1 John 2:1, 1 Tim 2:5)

Moses was inarticulate - Ex 4:10
Moses was articulate - Acts 7:22

Only God is to be called 'father' - Matt 23:9
Various people can be called 'father' - 1 Cor 10:1, Eph 6:1-4, 1 John 2:13-14, Matt 15:4

Jesus prayed to God to be saved from death, and he was heard - Heb 5:7
Jesus prayed to God to be saved from death and was not heard (ie. he was
executed the next day) - Luke 22:41,42,44,47,54, 23:33

Prepare your defence if challenged for your faith - 1 Pet 3:15
Don't bother beforehand about what is to be said if challenged for your faith - Mark 13:11

God instructs man to live on vegetarian diet - Gen 1:29-30
Any food can be eaten - Gen 9:3, Acts 10:12-13, Rom 14:2

Martyred believers cry out for vengeance - Rev 6:9-10
Believers should love/forgive their enemies - Matt 5:44, 6:15,18:32-35, Luke 6:27-28

In Luke 10:38-42, Mary and Martha's home is between Samaria (mentioned in 9:57) and Jericho (mentioned in 18:35). It is after leaving Jericho (that was AFTER where they lived) that Jesus reaches Bethany (19:29). However, according to John (11:18-20, 12:1-3), their home was in Bethany.

It is wrong to judge others - Matt 7:1, Luke 6:37, Rom 2:1, 14:10
Others can be judged - Matt 23:13-33, John 8:44, Rom 1:27,29-32

At the feeding of the 5000, 200 denarii would have fed the crowd - Mark 6:37
At the feeding of the 5000, 200 denarii would not have fed the crowd - John 6:7

God tells Zedekiah he will be captured but die peacefully - Jer 34:2-5
Zedekiah is capture, has his eyes taken out and is imprisoned to the day he dies - Jer 52:10-11

Jesus refuses to disclose who he is, or allow others to do this - Matt 12:15-16, 16:16-17,20, Mark 3:11-12, 8:29-30, Luke 9:20-21
Jesus tells the Samaritans (John 4:25-26), the Jews (John 5:39, 8:42,58, 10:24-25,30), the crowds (John 6:40), and others (John 9:35-38), who he is

The Gospel not to be taken to the Samaritans - Matt 10:5-6
The Gospel taken to the Samaritans - John 4:4-41, Acts 8:5,14,15,25

Women are to be obedient and submissive to men - 1 Cor 11:3,7-9, 14:33-35, Eph 5:22-24, 1 Tim 2:11-15, Titus 2:4-5, 1 Pet 3:21
There are no sexes in Christ: both are "one" - Gal 3:28

Let others see your good works - Matt 5:16
Do not let others see your good works - Matt 6:1,4

Stephen says the Jews persecuted the prophets and killed those who foretold Christ's coming - Acts 7:52.
Moses was a prophet who foretold Christ's coming (eg. Acts 7:37) but was not killed - Deut 34:5,8; David was also a prophet (Acts 2:25,30), but he also died naturally.

THE GOD OF THE BIBLE

All forms of life destroyed because of one imperfect species - Genesis 6:5,7, 7:23.

Human sacrifice commanded by God - Leviticus 27:28,29.

God agrees that Jephthah sacrifices his daughter as a thanksgiving - Judges 11:29-40.

God sends ten plagues on Egypt because Pharaoh won't release the Hebrews, but he deliberately hardens Pharaoh's heart so he refuses to release the Hebrews making these plagues necessary in the first place - God admits this is so he can perform 'his wonders' (Exodus 11:9), ie. wholesale mass slaughter of life in Egypt - Exodus 7:3-4,13-14, 10:1,20.

God sanctions slavery and a man selling his daughter - Exodus 21:2- 6,7.

Death demanded for heresy - Deuteronomy 13:1,2,5,14,15.

God says that if a man strikes 'his slave', male or female, and they do not die immediately, the man shall not be punished because 'the slave is his money (ie. property)' - Exodus 21:20-21.

God orders people to slaughter their own relatives because they rejected Moses' religion; 3000 killed. Moses tells the killers that God would bless them for doing this by making them ordained for his service - Exodus 32:27-29.

A person to kill their own family for a difference of religion - Deuteronomy 13:6-10.

God demands death for anyone not circumcised - Genesis 17:9-14.

God demands the sick are to be driven out of the community - Numbers 5:1-4.

God burns people to death for complaining - Numbers 11:1.

God kills 24,000 people by a plague because one of them brought a Midianite woman to his tent - Numbers 25:6-9.

The curses of God upon the Hebrews (eg. eating their own children) - Leviticus 26:14-39, Deuteronomy 28:15-68.

God arranges the Midianite slaughter - Judges 7:2,9,22.

(Note: Numbers 31:l-18 states that God instructed the mass slaughter of Midianites, and the Lord "slew every male", alongwith their rulers (31:7), and the Midianite women and children and animals were captured; Moses then demanded all the males, including babies and the women were to be slaughtered, but the young girls could be "kept alive for yourselves" (31:18).

This story records the extermination of the Midianites, but later on, God AGAIN instructs the slaugher of the Midianites (Judges 6:16), It is the same with the Amalekites - they are "ALL destroyed" in 1 Samuel 15:8, but they are destroyed yet again in 1 Samuel 27:8-9 and everyone - men and women - are killed; however, they are killed (- for the 3rd time) in 1 Samuel

30:1,16-17 except for 400 young men. At long last, they are are finally killed off in 1 Chronicles 4:43 when the 'remnant' were destroyed.

The Spirit of God comes upon Samson and he murders over a thousand people - Judges 14:19, 15:14-15.

The Psalmist praises God for his 'steadfast love' but then details his slaughtering in the past - Psalm 136:10-21.

God deliberately deludes people so they will not be saved - 2 Thess 2:11-12.

A girl not found to be a virgin was to be killed - Deuteronomy 22:13- 21
(Note the same did not apply to men).

God kills a baby for its father's wrongdoing - ignoring the father's pleas - 2 Samuel 12:15-20.

God kills 70,000 men - 2 Samuel 24:15.

Moses orders the extermination of the Midianites - men, women, children,
and babies, but the young girls can be kept alive for their captors' "use" - Numbers 31:1-18. (NB. most of the Pentateuchal battles were ordered by Moses - however he was only God's mouthpiece (Numbers 12:6-8).

God has a friendly meeting with his arch enemy Satan - whom he doesn't even recognise - Job 1:6-7, and they have a wager (Job 1:8-12) over how much suffering it would take before righteous Job will reject God. Job then has his whole family killed and livelihood ruined (1:13-19) and then is afflicted by a loathsome plague (2:7-8).

My God...has forsaken me

Infinity,

Thanks for sharing this with us. However, I would like to point out that it's easier and takes up less space if you just post the link to the page, like so:

http://munshi.sonoma.edu/jamal/weird/bible.txt

Just a suggestion...thanks again.

------------------
An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Science has proven that the earth is millions of years old (the Bible was wrong). And blood-letting was thought to cure people in the Dark Ages. Here in the 21st century, that's called being sadistic (the Bible was wrong again).
I admit, the bible was far ahead of its time and has boundless knowledge, but, as you said, it was written thousands of years ago, and they didn't know everything we do now. It's not a gospel truth, but it is one of the closest we've got (one of many, however).

One final note. It's a fact that you can't prove a negative. You prove something exists, if you can't, then it doesn't.

Can someone tell me everything in the Bible that's been proven wrong? Things like Gabriel said?

Infinity,

Wow...I'm impressed at your eye for detail. I'm wondering though, what all that is supposed to mean to you and why? Did it ever occur to you that the truth that is presented in the Bible is a wee bit deeper than you are delving? Did it ever occur to you that it really doesn't matter one little bit what the exact number of people was that died in a plague? Did you know that it would be a sin to take my gun, go outside, and start target shooting at the neighbors kids, but it wouldn't be a sin to shoot a man who broke into my house early in the morning, looking to hurt or kill me? Can you logically figure out why that would be? Have you ever considered really reading the Bible and paying attention to things like circumstance, implied intentions, and context? I find, honestly, that it may be difficult at first to get the big picture of the message of Jesus Christ, but once you get the big picture, the meaning in the detail becomes clearer. The more you understand, the more you learn. It's really, really, really, really, deep dude. You're not getting it. But may I say that you are making an outstanding and thorough effort out of not getting it. Kudos.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 28, 2000).]

Lori--

I'm quite sure this is beside your central point, but I thought it worthy of mention; to that, I'm sorry I don't have much better to contribute right now.

Did you know that it would be a sin to take my gun, go outside, and start target shooting at the neighbors kids, but it wouldn't be a sin to shoot a man who broke into my house early in the morning, looking to hurt or kill me? Can you logically figure out why that would be?

Would I be nitpicking to ask what time of morning? Actually, there's an Old Testament passage I've got scribbled down in a notebook somewhere in which the difference between murder and defense is, literally, night & day. Now that I would have a hard time figuring in the modern day.

But I say it with a smile ... I'm aware the question is either compelling or offensive, and, really, I'm just mentioning it 'cuz it's there; I assert nothing either way there.

:D (See?)

But I did want to inject another aspect here, and this without sarcasm or jest, and with what I hope to be the highest respect.

But as regards "sin" and the defense of one's home .... To be quite honest, in Catholic school I backed down from two fights and let the guy swing at me specifically so that I, the socially-described Atheist/Satanist/Evil of the World (circle one) could make a big show of grinning and offering the other side of my face (wolf in lamb's clothes, &c.). Thus, I am wondering (more toward the rhetorical; I need that before the practical) how Christ's opinions of retaliation and revenge affect the equation here. We know on a practical level when turning cheeks isn't a great idea, but what of that "real" level, that comes with advice/instruction/directive (circle one) from God.

Hoping it makes sense ....
Tiassa :cool:

------------------
We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

Originally posted by Lori:
I'm wondering though, what all that is supposed to mean to you and why?

It's a bunch of bull crap to me. That's what it means. Why? Because out of all the evidence I've seen for God and the Bible, and not not for God and the Bible, I've come to the conclusion that God dosn't exist and the story of Genesis is a fairy tale. As do most people...

What about things like this-

God demands death for anyone not circumcised - Genesis 17:9-14.
God burns people to death for complaining - Numbers 11:1.
God deliberately deludes people so they will not be saved - 2 Thess 2:11-12.
All forms of life destroyed because of one imperfect species - Genesis 6:5,7, 7:23.
Jesus prayed to God to be saved from death, and he was heard - Heb 5:7
Jesus prayed to God to be saved from death and was not heard (ie. he was
executed the next day) - Luke 22:41,42,44,47,54, 23:33
Believers will be deceived into leaving the faith - 1 Tim 4:1, Heb 6:4-6, Gal 3:1, Rev 2:5
God will protect believers from being led astray - Psa 31:23, 37:28,32,33, John 10:27-29
The rich cannot enter heaven; the kingdom of God is for the poor - Luke 6:20, Matt 19:24, James 5:1
God rewards by bestowing wealth and disciples can be rich - Job 42:10, Matt 27:57
God's attributes are unknowable - Job 11:7-9
God's attributes are knowable - Rom 1:20

I don't know about you but I'd say you got a real crappy God.



Did it ever occur to you that the truth that is presented in the Bible is a wee bit deeper than you are delving? Did it ever occur to you that it really doesn't matter one little bit what the exact number of people was that died in a plague? Did you know that it would be a sin to take my gun, go outside, and start target shooting at the neighbors kids, but it wouldn't be a sin to shoot a man who broke into my house early in the morning, looking to hurt or kill me? Can you logically figure out why that would be? Have you ever considered really reading the Bible and paying attention to things like circumstance, implied intentions, and context? I find, honestly, that it may be difficult at first to get the big picture of the message of Jesus Christ, but once you get the big picture, the meaning in the detail becomes clearer. The more you understand, the more you learn. It's really, really, really, really, deep dude. You're not getting it. But may I say that you are making an outstanding and thorough effort out of not getting it. Kudos.
[/B]

Your religous tricks aren't going to work on me bub'

[This message has been edited by Infinity (edited June 28, 2000).]

WHat about things like this-
(im quoting this form a website)

-----
#1
-----
THE PROBLEM
1 Kings 7:23 and 2 Chron. 4:2: "He made a molten sea, ten cubits from one brim to another: it was round all about and its height was five cubits; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about."
The circumference of a circle is equal to the diameter times pi, or 3.1415. Therefore the circumference of the "sea" had to have been 31.4 cubits if its diameter was ten cubits.

THE RATIONAL EXPLANATION
An incorrect number is an incorrect number, regardless of culture. The laws of mathematics are consistent across all cultures and times. If this is God's word, God should certainly have known that the circumference had to be more than 31 cubits if the "sea" was round and 10 cubits in diameter.
Fundamentalists counter that this is a weak argument; I disagree. I don't expect perfect mathematics, but accuracy to at least two orders of magnitude, which the ancients understood and depended on themselves, isn't unreasonable. One order of magnitude of accuracy isn't very much and wouldn't have been acceptable to the ancients, either.


-----
#2
-----
THE PROBLEM
Describing the same incident, 2 Samuel 8:4 states that King David captured 1700 horsemen, and 1 Chron. 18:4 claims he captured 7,000. [Good News Bible]
The accounts disagree.

THE RATIONAL EXPLANATION
If God is the author of both accounts, why do they disagree?


-----
#3
-----
THE PROBLEM
The authors of Ezra 2:3 and Neh. 7:8 enumerate the tribes that came back from captivity in Babylon. They disagree as to the numbers involved in some clans and tribes: Ezra:
Arah: 775
Pahath Moab: 2812
Zattu: 945
Bebai: 623
Azgad: 1222
Adonikam: 666
Bigvai: 2056
Adin: 454
etc., etc. Nehamiah:
Arah: 652
Pahath Moab: 2818
Zattu: 845
Bebai: 628
Azgad: 2322
Adonikam: 667
Bigvai: 2067
Adin: 655
etc., etc.
Of course, I could go on, but you get the point. The accounts differ, often by thousands, even orders of magnitude.

THE RATIONAL EXPLANATION
The accounts clearly differ in significant details, and by significant amounts. They obviously can't both be right. If this is God's word, He apparently can't get the story straight when telling it twice.


-----
#4
-----
THE PROBLEM
Leviticus 11:13-19 refers to bats as fowl, when in fact they are mammals. He then goes on in 20:21 to declare to be an abomination any fowl that "creep, going on all four..." when there is no such a bird. In 11:6, he declares "...and the hare, because he cheweth the cud." Hares don't chew a cud. Hares are rodents, not ruminants (members of the cattle family). Only ruminants chew cud, rodents do not.

THE RATIONAL EXPLANATION
The author of Leviticus obviously didn't have much of an understanding of the most rudimentary of biological science. A fecal pellet is not a cud. A cud is the product of the rumen, a chamber of the stomach of ruminants. A fecal pellet is a product of the lower intestine. Besides, coprophagy (the eating of excrement) hasn't been observed in hares anyway. Again, if this is God's word, He is displaying a good deal of ignorance of what He allegedly created.


-----
#5
-----
THE PROBLEM
John 12:24 says "except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone; but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit."
How can it bring forth any fruit at all if it's dead?

THE RATIONAL EXPLANATION
The ancients believed that seeds were actually dead, not alive as we now know they are. But again, God should have known better if this is His word. If the fundamentalist's argument is correct, then Jesus' use of this analogy is a false one ("false premise" fallacy).


-----
#6
-----
THE PROBLEM
Matthew 13:31-32 states that "The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed... is the smallest of all seeds but when it is grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree."
First, mustard seeds, while small, are hardly the smallest of seeds. Many other seeds, particularly some orchid species, are much, much smaller. Second, it isn't a shrub, but an herb, and isn't particularly large as herbs go, either. There are many herbs that get much, much larger. And third, it doesn't become either a shrub or a tree. Like all other herbs, it stays an herb. It is an annual, and usually dies at the end of a single growing season, so could hardly be mistaken for a shrub.

THE RATIONAL EXPLANATION
The reference simply shows an ignorance of very basic botany at best, and if one accepts the fundamentalist's claim, would make Jesus guilty of hyperbole at the least. This is another example of a false premise fallacy


-----
#7
-----
THE PROBLEM
John 12:21 states that "The same came therefore to Phillip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired of him..."
Bethsaida was in the province of Gaulontinis, not the province of Galilee.

THE RATIONAL EXPLANATION
The reference is obviously to the province, not the proximity, so the fundamentalist argument just doesn't wash.


-----
#8
-----
THE PROBLEM
Genesis 6:15 states that Noah's ark was 300 cubits by 50 cubits by 30 cubits in size. We know that a cubit was approximately 18 inches, yielding a volume (if perfectly rectangular, the most voluminous possible shape of three unequal dimensions) of 1,518,750 cubic feet. Into this, you must fit two of each of the 30,000,000 species on earth, plus the food to keep all of them alive for a month.
If this were true, it would not be physically possible to put two of each animal species on earth, plus months' worth of food for them, in a volume of that size.

THE RATIONAL EXPLANATION
Its highly questionable if the animals were simply piled in that volume, willy-nilly, with no room for bedding or even room to stand, whether there would be adequate room, even without the food. The author of the flood myth simply didn't understand the extent of faunal diversity in the world. As for the volumetric problem, you don't have to try to fit them to see that it won't work. You can simply calculate that it wouldn't fit by adding the volume of the average sized animal's body, multiplied by the number of species. Excluding bacteria, but including all insects, there are more than 30,000,000 species of land animals on earth. Multiply that volume by two, and add in the volume of food required to keep both of each species alive for as much as twenty years (see below), and it's pretty obvious that this isn't going to work. Then there's the time it would take to gather up the 30 million species. If you gathered a male and a female of one species every ten seconds, it would take about ten years to gather up 30 million of them. And mind you, you've got to go to Antarctica to get penguins, the Arctic to get polar bears, Asia to get tigers, Australia to get kangaroos, Africa to get gorillas, South America to get tapirs and agoutis, etc., and you have got to get them back with an adequate supply of their required food and put them in the Ark within ten seconds. Then when the flood's over, you've got to take another ten years to put them all back at the rate of a species every ten seconds. Then there are all kinds of ecological questions; how are many delicate marine species going to survive when the salinity of the oceans is reduced by two thirds, as it would have been if a worldwide flood of nearly five miles in depth had occurred? How are species going to survive that require mature ecosystems which themselves require centuries to mature? Obviously, this story isn't just impossible, it's ludicrous.

Hi Infinity,

We've bumped into each other already in "Silence"

Impressive list of contradiction, I'm actually going to print it out and look at it in more detail.

From scanning the list however I noticed that there are some obvious contradiction for the sake of contradictions and due to a lack of understanding. But then there are some that require further examination.

Essentially I would categorise your list as follows:

1. Contradictions for the hell of it.

2. Contradictions for lack of understanding.

3. Contradictions based on incorrect interpretation of original text.

4. Contradictions based on incorrect recording of original events.

5. Contradictions based on incorrect re-recording of original texts.

So if you want someone to seriously look at them I will be happy to. But I would ask for clearer definition of the sources that you have studied to make these claims. Can you please quote me a little more than "Good News Bible", if you could quote the reference to the original Hebrew or Greek text then that would help. I must advise however that it will take a month of Sundays x 12 to review it ;)

Say, just a niggling thought. This is all your own research right? I mean your not trying to refute my faith based on your faith in another persons work? I mean your not like relying on them telling you the whole truth, the truth and nothing but the truth, are you? Gee it would be a big disappointment if you were claiming to "know" all these contradictions first hand and then we found it was based on your faith in the accuracy of another persons research. ;)

Oh, but I forgot, atheists don't have faith do they?

Sorry about the sarcasm, I just couldn't resist. Seriously thanks for your posts and if time permits I will try to untangle your web for you.

BTW welcome to exosci, I guarantee we won't see eye to eye on a few things but will do my best not to call you names :D

Allcare

Tony H2o

So if you want someone to seriously look at them I will be happy to. But I would ask for clearer definition of the sources that you have studied to make these claims.
Can you please quote me a little more than "Good News Bible", if you could quote the reference to the original Hebrew or Greek text then that would help.

Clearer definition? How's this for a clearer definition-here's the damn website I got it from http://www.pe.net/~bidstrup/bible2.htm ask no more.

This is all your own research right? I mean your not trying to refute my faith based on your faith in another persons work? I mean your not like relying on them telling you the whole truth, the truth and nothing but the truth, are you? Gee it would be a big disappointment if you were claiming to "know" all these contradictions first hand and then we found it was based on your faith in the accuracy of another persons research. ;)

Now why would that be a big dissapointment? Well maybe for you it would be. So tell me, why shouldn't I trust them? I'm pretty sure their not lying.

Oh, but I forgot, atheists don't have faith do they?

Is this a question that you already know the answer to?

Oh, and I wouldn't mind hearing your explanation of Noah's ark and how it could manage to carry all those animals.

Here's some more things for you to look at

The sky is a barrier that separates the waters in oceans, seas, rivers and lakes from a huge resevoir of water that exists above the sky. When it rains the windows of heaven are opened and the water rushes down onto the earth below.

Gen.1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 1:7 And God made the firmament; and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so. 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven: and the evening and the morning were the second day.

Gen. 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

The sun once stopped in its tracks for about a day. Though an event of this magnitude should have been noticed all over the earth - there is absolutely no referrence to it anywhere even though some ancient civilizations were meticulous in their astronomical observations.

Jos.10:12 Then spoke Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon, and thou Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. [Is] not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

Man was created with the potential lifespan of over 900 yrs. If this were really true every culture would have legends or stories of ancients living centuries - there are none. ( Note: there are some cultures that claim ancient kings lived tens of thousands of years but this is so obviously bogus that could not possibly be derived from the stories in Genesis.)

Gen. 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

When God was busy creating he got a bit ahead of himself. It seems that he created light before the sources of light were created.

Gen.1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night: and the evening and the morning were the first day.

Gen.1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven, to give light upon the earth. 1:18 And to rule over the day, and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it [was] good. 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


...and one more thing, Tony. With God, are all things possible?

I was once like you. I beleived in God, but just a few days ago I saw Flash's post with all those contradictions...and one thing led to another, and now I've been unconverted. In time, you, too, will become an Atheist. Join me, in remaking this world!!!




[This message has been edited by Infinity (edited June 29, 2000).]

Infinity,


I was once like you. I beleived in God, but just a few days ago I saw Flash's post with all those contradictions...and one thing led to another, and now I've been converted. In time, you, too, will become an Atheist. Join me, in remaking this world!!!

Yes I noticed that you said you believed and asked to be shown the contradictions......and then one thing lead to another, and now your unconverted :(

As a Christian I have noticed that we, that is collective Christianity tend to run away from the things you have posted up.

I don't!!

Once upon a time I would have, because I was young and without understanding, because I had not seen what I have now seen. But having seen what I have seen and knowing what I know that goes beyond what words can capture and describe I don't run away from the difficult. I seek deeper, I as a mortal man approach God and ask for the truth of the matter. (see Overview and Dreams and Visions to understand where I'm coming from when I say I know)

Do I know all the answers to these statements and questions - NO. But because I know that God is real I will never give up seeking a deeper understanding of who He is and what He shows us about Himself in the Word.

Yes the world needs remaking Infinity, but mans ways and concepts of how and what it should be will never suffice. Only God can bring about a new heaven and a new earth.

I know a place where I can ask the questions you have posted, it may take a while to get all the answers but we will try. I will seek them out for you in the wisdom of others and directly of God, for they are questions we all need to understand the answers to.

I guess what has happened to you is the reason why I don't bring other Christians here. If their faith is shallow, if they are weak and without understanding, if the are young or have been sheltered, well this place will kill them. That I do not want to see, "For if any of you make one such as this little one to fall it would have been better to have a mile stone placed around your neck and be cast into the sea."

This is not a place for beginers.

Please, I know your probably reeling a bit by what you have had placed in front of you. But please cling to that which your heart speaks to you, I know how your head feels. Listen to your heart.

Allcare

Tony

Hello infinity and Tony,

I think Tony has a point here it should take a lot more then a few contradictions to shake ones belief if one is truly convinced.
Belief it or not but there are always ways out of these kind of contradictions, especially those found in the bible since as Tony says the book as been copied and translated so many times there could easily have some errors in the copy process. Second layer of defence is the allegory, one shouldn't interpret everything literary but some things allegorcally.

This is not the way to become an atheist, what you must do is question the core belief of a theist. Is a god needed to explain what we see and is this god consistent with what we see.
If you are convinced that both of these questions are a negative then you can be a lot more confident in being an atheist. Attacking the bible really is pointless one can get absolutly everything out of it, this is why it is so succesful.
However I must warn you, being an atheist will eventually also make you want to exclude the paranormal and supernatural, it really sobers one up sort of speak :D

------------------
I err, therefore I exist !

Infinity,

Ah, my religious trickery! ROFLMAO! I feel a little Mooncat-ish...I'll get back to you buddy, but in the meantime, I'm going to cast a Jesus spell on you. :D

Tiassa,

I can hardly see how it would logically matter what time of the day it was that someone would intrude in your home. Maybe it had something to do with custom at the time. Maybe it was customary for neighbors or whoever to walk into people's houses univited during the day. *shrug* Just guessing. If I had to interpret that scripture, I would assume that the night/day distinction has something to do with the implied or unimplied intentions of the person who is breaking and entering, wouldn't you? Like, the only reason that I said "early in the morning", is because it is reasonable to assume that someone who is breaking into my house at that hour might want more than my tv set. Does that make sense? By saying "earyly in the morning", I was trying to imply intent, and that my reaction may be varied, depending upon the intent. The Bible doesn a lot of that too. That's why what Infinity is doing is missing the entire point. The intent is in the context, and the intent is what is most important in understanding the message. It's just that the Bible was written a long time ago, and nowadays it's kind of hard to always be able to understand the customs and way of life at that time.

As far as the fighting at school goes, or defending yourself in general. Jesus doesn't want us to be weak, he wants us to be strong. Turning the other cheek is supposed to be a show of strength against your enemy. It takes more strength to not give in to emotions of pride, anger, vengence, and retaliation, than it does to give in to them. That does not however, mean to roll over and play dead. You have to fight in this world, but you have to be fighting for the right reasons, and with the right intent, and for the right intent. Violence is never the right answer, but a good person can't do any good if they're dead. And I would say this too...if the only reason that you turned your cheek was to look good in front of your "christian" friends, then you should have went ahead and punched the dude. Backing down from a fight is a good thing, but you need to do it for the right reasons. Not defending yourself from severe bodily harm is just stupid though.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 29, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 29, 2000).]

As a Christian I have noticed that we, that is collective Christianity tend to run away from the things you have posted up.

I don't!!

I know a place where I can ask the questions you have posted, it may take a while to get all the answers but we will try. I will seek them out for you in the wisdom of others and directly of God, for they are questions we all need to understand the answers to.
[/B]


Yeah, I can see that. It's already been 10 days and It seems like your just ignoring all these problems. -50 chocolate points for you!!!

Originally posted by Lori:
Infinity,
Ah, my religious trickery! ROFLMAO! I feel a little Mooncat-ish...I'll get back to you buddy, but in the meantime, I'm going to cast a Jesus spell on you. :D


You never got back to me. -20 chocolate points for you.

Originally posted by Infinity:

Yeah, I can see that. It's already been 10 days and It seems like your just ignoring all these problems. -50 chocolate points for you!!!

Darn it, and I love chocolate :)

Sorry girl I've got a couple of things called, job and family that dredges time out of me like you wouldn't believe. They take priority on my to-do list.

I'd really like to spend some time on this and so I won't be able to get back to you in a Flash ;)

If your serious about answers then we need to try and get them together. If your serious about wanting to believe then I'll help where I can.

One thing though, (and I know this will shock many here) I do not know everything :(

In saying that it doesn't mean that I don't seek answers, it means that faith and knowledge are separate things. Faith believes in things unseen and unprovable, things that many consider irrational and plain stupid at times. So what I won't be trying to do is prove to you or anyone the existence of God, instead I'll do what I've been asked to do. Show you who He is to help you understand what He is really like so that you, yourself can seek Him and ask of Him directly.

Tell me something, you said you used to believe until Flash posted up those things. So how long were you a Christian for? How deep did your relationship and understanding of who God is really go? How strong was your commitment and love? Do you want to believe with your mind or your heart? Or both? I assume your still interested in God because your still wanting answers, or is it a case of false pretence? Could it be you were never a Christian? Could it be you are trying to confront our faith, or test us? Could it be you are someone we already know? Someone who may want to believe, someone who has nagging doubts that echo through her mind and are thrown at her by others? Could it be you don't want other to know that you are curious about faith?

Sorry about all the speculations, it's just that I don't know you that well, I don't know your character or nature. So I test things a bit, try to feel them out to get a clearer understanding of who I'm talking with and why.

So as time permits I'll attempt to get through the points listed in the web site referenced. But in the mean time I would suggest that if you are at all serious about having a relationship with God then you should also seek for answers. One thing for sure, they won't come easy. You will have to dig very deep for greater understanding and wisdom. If you don't want to do that then we will stop right now.

God is not one who hands understanding and wisdom out like boiled lollies, He makes us work for it. And in doing so when we come to see the truth, when we gain the understanding we sought it becomes so much more delightful and meaningful to us.

God does not tolerate spoilt and childish behaviour that demands instant gratification. He rewards an earnest heart that truly seeks to understand and know.

Allcare

Tony H2o

I have one point to make to this HUGE post that I have read mostly...

First off I don't believe in god, Christian or otherwise. However if I did believe in anything it wouldn't be the bible. The Bible was written by men, men with there own values, understanding and pruposes for doing what they