http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060330/ap_on_he_me/prayer_study

according to this study prayer seems to have no power.


Believers why do you pray?

Comfort, wish list, or giving god some ruling advice
If god is all knowing wouldn't it already see what your going to pray for?

Believers why do you pray?

To be heard. And prayer has worked for me :)

And you should know that people should not but God to the test.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

And prayer has worked for me :)


No. Random chance and coincidence has worked in your favor.

All Praise The Accidents Of Chance

Comfort, wish list, or giving god some ruling advice

sumtimes it can be good to talk to yrself.

If god is all knowing wouldn't it already see what your going to pray for?

yes. jesus said: remember, your father knows what your needs are before you ask him. this is how you should pray: our father who art in heaven... etc.

of course... if god would change his masterplan and stuff only because we pray, there would be chaos. he can't change everything just because mortals pray for him, he knows us better than we know ourselves, he knows what is best for us.

Yes. The righteous in the "enemy" country pray for the defeat of the "enemy". Who is the enemy? Who is righteous? Who decides? Which god rules? And if there is only one god, how does he decide? Clearly this must be rediculous - even to "believers". Right? No? Oh well. What did I expect.

Yes. The righteous in the "enemy" country pray for the defeat of the "enemy". Who is the enemy? Who is righteous? Who decides? Which god rules? And if there is only one god, how does he decide? Clearly this must be rediculous - even to "believers". Right? No? Oh well. What did I expect.

Example: Boxer A & B pray to god for victory;
Boxer A almost kills boxer B with a blow to the head; in interview;

Boxer A thanks god for his undisputable victory; Boxer B gets rushed to the hospital and dies overnight.

What the hell happened to boxer B's prayers? God dindn't listen, did he favor boxer A over Boxer B. or did he listen to a desperate gambling man to answer his prayer and give boxer A a quick victory because he bet the house?


Ah! I guess that's why they say "god works in misterious ways"

Godless

Yes. It was clearly god's will to let boxer B die and A go on to pugilistic glory. Then what did the prayer have to do with it? Asking god to do something he was already going to do? Bah. Same old roundabout. Prayer is just plain stupid no matter how you look at it.

If god is all knowing wouldn't it already see what your going to pray for?
Maybe that's why prayer has no power...

To be heard. And prayer has worked for me :)

And you should know that people should not but God to the test.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

So, has everything you've ever prayed for happened? No.

Have some things happened and others not? Yes.

Why didn't prayer work for those things that didn't happen?

Prayer equals Desperation. Not to mention very selfish despite what you wish for. Even if you are praying for others, it is still your wish. Praying is a pseudo-reality check to see if God's either listening or if He favors you over others. You know.... confirmation that one is on the right track to Heaven.

If you prayed for world hunger to end overnite and it happened, I would get on my knees right then and beg for forgiveness. Unfortunately God must be getting tired of hearing that one, either He can't deliver or He doesn't want to end it.

Prayer equals Desperation. Not to mention very selfish despite what you wish for. Even if you are praying for others, it is still your wish. Praying is a pseudo-reality check to see if God's either listening or if He favors you over others. You know.... confirmation that one is on the right track to Heaven.

If you prayed for world hunger to end overnite and it happened, I would get on my knees right then and beg for forgiveness. Unfortunately God must be getting tired of hearing that one, either He can't deliver or He doesn't want to end it.
i believe you hav denigrated prayer cause of your aversion to patriarchal 'God' religion. but its not only patriarchal religionists pray, Indigenous peoples who had an animist woldview also prayed. different forms but still prayer, which is directed MEANING

to wonder whypraying wont suddenly end world hunger is naive. that problem is complex and is due to how we LIVE and how many conform to tis way of living,

But still IFyou have deep feelings to help someone or planet Earth etc do it. This deep feeling IS Meaning

Prayer equals Desperation. Not to mention very selfish despite what you wish for. Even if you are praying for others, it is still your wish.

If you prayed for world hunger to end overnite and it happened, I would get on my knees right then and beg for forgiveness. Unfortunately God must be getting tired of hearing that one, either He can't deliver or He doesn't want to end it.

Or, he simply does not hear any such prayers. ;)

When I was back there in seminary school, there was a person there who put forth the proposition, that you can petition the lord with prayer.
Petition the lord with prayer, petition the lord with prayer!
You cannot petition the lord with prayer!

--Soft Parade, The Doors

I'm not going to discount a god who hears but does not act. I can no better prove god's existence than any religious person. The freewill package allows us to pray but to not expect god to interfere. Any intervention from the almighty is a breach of the freewill agreement. In other words, if god exists and he hears your prayers then he can only listen.

Of course if you've already gathered that prayer is beneficial, from a book written in god's words, then you have already been influenced. The freewill decision to pray did not come without some coercion.

The thought that you are talking to the most powerful presence in the universe and beyond is just that, a thought. If it makes you feel better, then good. There will be moments when something you ask for will happen, it can only be coincidence because god should be non-interfering. Its like gambling, people lose more times than win, but only tell you when they win.

What if you prayed that someone would die and they did? If you believe in god then say thanks. Don't feel guilty, there is no need. God, the associated beliefs and customs that come with him/her is only a convenience. If that's the meaning....then so be it.

No. Random chance and coincidence has worked in your favor.

All Praise The Accidents Of Chance

*************
M*W: Atheists don't 'pray', we think positively.

All Praise the Coincidence of Synchronicity in the Universe

Chance is merely a word that people use to conceal their ignorance of the real causes.

Chance is merely a word that people use to conceal their ignorance of the real causes.

Chance has nothing to do with knowledge, ignorance is seeking that which can't be proven to exist, with the idea that it does. :rolleyes:

The thought that you are talking to the most powerful presence in the universe and beyond is just that, a thought. If it makes you feel better, then good. There will be moments when something you ask for will happen, it can only be coincidence because god should be non-interfering. Its like gambling, people lose more times than win, but only tell you when they win.

The only powerfull presence in the universe when you are praying is your own self. You are basically talking, wishing, to yourself for your benefit or of those around you, when you pray, it gives you solace, a since of not being alone, fear is the main cause of your prayers, hopes would be the next, you are only soothing your ego, in times of trouble. Prayer didn't work for those people on board of airplanes that crashed on wtc, nor did it help anyone in New Orleans, it only soothes their melancholy and fears.

Godless

. Prayer didn't work for those people on board of airplanes that crashed on wtc, nor did it help anyone in New Orleans, it only soothes their melancholy and fears.

Godless

Depends, WTC terrorists surely prayed to their god that their mission would be successful. Likewise for those who pray for misfortune to befall Americans on a daily basis.

WTC is an example of God being unable to come through for opposite demands at a synchronous prayer moment. He can give to one what he cannot give to the other.

Or else prayer is just a pile of crap, a statement which undoubtedly makes more sense.

Or else prayer is just a pile of crap, a statement which undoubtedly makes more sense.

It does. ;)

Experts called it the largest and best-designed study ever to test the medical effects of intercessory prayers — praying on behalf of someone else. That's different from studying the effect of a person's prayers and spiritual practices on his or her own health; many studies of that have shown a positive effect.

these people didn't even know who they were praying for. A name on a list.
I think if there is a higher purpose for prayer, beyond our own selfish needs, which there must be, it might be to allow humans to experience community and show concern for each other. Perhaps when a person cares and their prayer is "answered" they feel glad to have participated in a positive event, even if they had no direct effect, they connect themselves to the event in at least as strong a way as a fan watching their favorite team or rockstar, but actually much stronger emotionally.
The purpose of prayer is definitely not to control all situations - people that think this is what prayer is for are silly because praying obviously doesn't change circumstances all the time.
If the athiest thinks that is what prayer is for they are silly too, because that is logically untenable.

If prayer has a higher purpose, then prayer undertaken with another purpose -especially one as stupid as, "let's prove God exists, or doesn't exist" - should be ignored, because it is just an act.

P.S. even an unknown name on a list, in a church environment, has the ability to, in some small way, show a person's concern for their community.

Example: Boxer A & B pray to god for victory;
Boxer A almost kills boxer B with a blow to the head; in interview;

Boxer A thanks god for his undisputable victory; Boxer B gets rushed to the hospital and dies overnight.

What the hell happened to boxer B's prayers? God dindn't listen, did he favor boxer A over Boxer B. or did he listen to a desperate gambling man to answer his prayer and give boxer A a quick victory because he bet the house?


Ah! I guess that's why they say "god works in misterious ways"

Godless

Easy, Christians don't Box. Just as Christians do not fight in wars. too easy.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Easy, Christians don't Box. Just as Christians do not fight in wars. too easy.

Your ignorance overwhelms me :rolleyes:

He's right - according to this: http://www.bible-truths.org/questions&answers/isboxing.htm :D


Then of course there's Christina Christian :eek:
http://www.womenboxing.com/christianc.htm


Christian Bank Holiday after Christmas is called BOXING Day :)


From this website: http://www.wels.net/sab/qa/behav-08.html
Is boxing a Christian sport?
In general, particular sports in and of themselves are neither "Christian" or "non Christian." Boxing, like other sports, falls into the area of life we call adiaphora - things that God has neither commanded nor forbidden. In other words, God has left it up to a Christian's freedom whether he wishes to participate or not in such activities. Scripture nowhere forbids the believer's participation nor commands that he must take part.

Of course, the participant's attitude in any sport can still be very important. If a participant takes part in any sport because he enjoys inflicting severe bodily harm to his opponent (a football player who intentionally seeks to injure a member of the opposing team, for example) that would be a sin against the 5th Commandment. A Christian would want to participate in any sport by using his God given talents to the best of his ability, according to the rules of the sport. By such participation, the Christian can bring honor to his Savior even in an activity which in and of itself is an adiaphoron.

The specific sport you asked about, boxing, would follow the same principle of being an adiaphoron. If someone participates in boxing merely because he loves to inflict injury on his opponent, such a motivation would be sinful. However, there would be nothing inherently sinful to merely seeking to win a boxing match while honoring safety factors instituted for the well being of both participants (such as padded gloves; rules about legal and illegal punches).

Chance has nothing to do with knowledge,

Yeah, those who say that something is a chance have no knowledge about the causes.

I pray because I like to talk with God, insofar as I can. God being infinite, of course I can never truly "approach" God - but by the means which God provides - I have some way of communicating.

Here is a quote that I believe helps answer the question:

The wisdom of prayer is this: That it causeth a connection between the servant and the True One, because in that state (i.e., prayer) man with all heart and soul turneth his face towards His Highness the Almighty, seeking His association and desiring His love and compassion. The greatest happiness for a lover is to converse with his beloved, and the greatest gift for a seeker is to become familiar with the object of his longing; that is why with every soul who is attracted to the Kingdom of God, his greatest hope is to find an opportunity to entreat and supplicate before his Beloved, appeal for His mercy and grace and be immersed in the ocean of His utterance, goodness and generosity.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v3, p. 683)

Easy, Christians don't Box. Just as Christians do not fight in wars. too easy.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

*************
M*W: Someone needs to pull the plug on Adstar. He's brain dead.

Easy, Christians don't Box. Just as Christians do not fight in wars. too easy.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

*************
M*W: Not only do christians fight in wars, they start them. I feel sorry for all the christian families who have lost their sons and daughters in Iraq. You slap them all in the face with your ignorance.

http://www.**********.org/whitehistory/hwr43.htm

Easy, Christians don't Box. Just as Christians do not fight in wars. too easy.

If ever there are words written that prove a person's mind is under control by some outside agency, this is it. The sheer absurdity of such a statement is completely lost on you. I don't know whether to laugh at you or shake my head as I pity you. I sure as hell can't pray for you. Even god himself spit up his beer after that one. Wow!

So, has everything you've ever prayed for happened? No.


Correct.



Have some things happened and others not? Yes.

Correct.



Why didn't prayer work for those things that didn't happen?

Simple :) , because God did not deem it good for those prayers to be granted. I can pray for anything and everything but my prayers are only requests. I trust in Gods judgement on what He grants and what He withholds. He has ultimate wisdom and knows what should be granted and what should be withheld. I trust in His judgement on the matter.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

*************
M*W: Not only do christians fight in wars, they start them. I feel sorry for all the christian families who have lost their sons and daughters in Iraq. You slap them all in the face with your ignorance.

http://www.**********.org/whitehistory/hwr43.htm

While some of their family members might be Christian the solders who went to iraq to fight where certainly Not Christians. They where not following The Messiah Jesus in doing what they where doing they where following worldly political masters Not the Lord Jesus. So Yes i slap them in the face if they dare to declare their war fighting sons and daughters Christians, they are liars to God and deceivers for calling their sons and daughter Christians.


For those "christians" who are open to the truth i will once again give you the Word.

I will try to explain it to anyone who is open to it.

OK
Ever since the Messiah came back to life on the third day after his execution all of humanity has been invited to accept him as the Messiah to have their sins forgiven through his grace so as to be acceptable to exist in the presence of The Ancient Of Days for eternity. This Invitation is open to all people until the moment of their deaths.

When we kill others who haven’t accepted our Messiah we are denying them the chance for redemption that The Ancient Of Days has offered them through the Messiah. We sinners who are saved by grace have no right to kill others for the sins that they do.

To defend or avenge ourselves may be our human notion of what is good or just but once the Messiah was raised from the dead The Ancient Of Days provided a route to eternity for sinners that did away with justice. If The Ancient Of Days used justice to determine who would enter the Kingdom Of Heaven would we have any chance of entering it? I can be assured in myself that without the grace of the Messiah I would burn.

So if we are followers of The Messiah we shall attempt to overcome evil with good and not allow ourselves to be overcome by evil by joining in their game. Love is the only weapon Our Messiah has given us to use.

When we understand these things we then know why we are told to turn thy cheek, love thy enemy, do not avenge yourselves and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you. It no longer sounds like foolishness, for The Ancient Of Days has made the wisdom of man as nothing He reaches out to ALL men. How then can we kill one to whom The Ancient Of Days is reaching out for, in Love.

For those that can read and perceive

Matthew 5:38-39

38 "You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 39But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

Matthew 5: 43-48

43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Romans 12:17-21
17Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.

Revelation 13:10
He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Do you have the patience and the faith of the saints?

May the Spirit convict.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

If ever there are words written that prove a person's mind is under control by some outside agency, this is it.

:) Yes i am lead by the Holy Spirit. An outside agency indeed


The sheer absurdity of such a statement is completely lost on you. I don't know whether to laugh at you or shake my head as I pity you. I sure as hell can't pray for you. Even god himself spit up his beer after that one. Wow!

Absurd to you. But you are blinded to the truth, for you have rejected the love of the truth just as false christians who wage war have rejected the love of the truth.

The Messiah's Words will not be undermined by the twisting of satan's theologians, His Word Reigns.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[QUOTE=Adstar]While some of their family members might be Christian the solders who went to iraq to fight where certainly Not Christians. They where not following The Messiah Jesus in doing what they where doing they where following worldly political masters Not the Lord Jesus. So Yes i slap them in the face if they dare to declare their war fighting sons and daughters Christians, they are liars to God and deceivers for calling their sons and daughter Christians.

*************
M*W: You ignorant bastard. You are the one who deserves beheading. The atheists on sciforums would even pray for that!

Sorry Adstar, it should be a crime for what they've done to you.

And you should know that people should not but God to the test.


And why not? Is it because you wish to remain ignorant in your belief? Oops, pardon me, "ignorant" is not the politically correct term, my apologies. I guess the correct term would be "faith".

And you should know that people should not but God to the test.
"That way, it can never be proven that God actually doesn't exist. Teehee."

"Behold with a great plague will the LORD smite thy people and thy children, and thy wives, and all thy goods: And thou shalt have great sickness by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness day by day." (II Chronicles 21:14-15)

hahahhaaha.


Praying is like the child who asks santa for a present, when really it is the parents giving the gifts every year.
Real miracles (e.g. like healing a very sick person) are carried out everyday by human beings in hospitals (acting under the guidance of science).
That's why I'm a humanist.

"The hard work of one does more than the prayers of millions".

Simple :) , because God did not deem it good for those prayers to be granted. I can pray for anything and everything but my prayers are only requests. I trust in Gods judgement on what He grants and what He withholds. He has ultimate wisdom and knows what should be granted and what should be withheld. I trust in His judgement on the matter.

So, your prayers for some selfish petty things get answered while the prayers to put an end to starving children and disease go unanswered.

Yes, your god has ultimate wisdom and you trust him in these matters.

Why would he grant you your petty wishes and withhold prayers that actually had meaning?

I pray because I like to talk with God, insofar as I can. God being infinite, of course I can never truly "approach" God - but by the means which God provides - I have some way of communicating.

Here is a quote that I believe helps answer the question:

You must be 'communicating' about the weather or some such triviality. Have you ever 'communicated' the need for real changes on earth? You must feel so good that your god talks to you to make you feel better while ignoring that his children die of starvation every day.

You must be 'communicating' about the weather or some such triviality. Have you ever 'communicated' the need for real changes on earth? You must feel so good that your god talks to you to make you feel better while ignoring that his children die of starvation every day.

Actually Q I think you'll find that 'we' are responsible for those children dying and starving, we have enough wealth in this world to put an end to starvation and poverty, but WE choose not to. I guess when we stop being greedy and decide to cure our own problems and those of others we will have evolved at last into the higher beings we constantly rant on that we are.

God, has provided the means to cure these problems, just we prefer to use those 'means' for other purposes.

Real miracles (e.g. like healing a very sick person) are carried out everyday by human beings in hospitals (acting under the guidance of science).
That's why I'm a humanist.

"The hard work of one does more than the prayers of millions".

''Real miracles carried out under guidance of science'', this is a contradiction in terms, no miracle there. Also people were being cured from illness long before science had came into being! Hilarious post, but nice sentiment.

Actually Q I think you'll find that 'we' are responsible for those children dying and starving, we have enough wealth in this world to put an end to starvation and poverty, but WE choose not to. I guess when we stop being greedy and decide to cure our own problems and those of others we will have evolved at last into the higher beings we constantly rant on that we are.

God, has provided the means to cure these problems, just we prefer to use those 'means' for other purposes.

Thost damn fatcat Christians.

Actually, I'm not sure why you bothered to respond, all you've done is proved my point. Yes, WE are responsible.

And we will only 'evolve' in those higher beings when religion is finally banished from the Earth. Then we can start taking those resources used for worshipping gods and place them where they're needed most.

Lets' start by selling off all the churches and land used for religious purposes and use that money to feed starving children. Do you have a problem with that?

''Real miracles carried out under guidance of science'', this is a contradiction in terms, no miracle there.

And you are so dense as to not realize the point he was making.

And you are so dense as to not realize the point he was making.

are you so dense that you missed my 'nice sentiment' comment showing I noted his sentiment!

U want to get off topic and start a slanging match Q, that just about your style, fucking useless at debating so start slagging!

Thost damn fatcat Christians.

Actually, I'm not sure why you bothered to respond, all you've done is proved my point. Yes, WE are responsible.

And we will only 'evolve' in those higher beings when religion is finally banished from the Earth. Then we can start taking those resources used for worshipping gods and place them where they're needed most.

Lets' start by selling off all the churches and land used for religious purposes and use that money to feed starving children. Do you have a problem with that?

Agreed!

You thought I was Christian, no my slagging friend I'm not, no fan of religion at all! lol

"That way, it can never be proven that God actually doesn't exist. Teehee."


:) You assume it is Gods Will that that men using their logic would be able to prove His existence. If God could be proven then everyone would acknowledge His existence. Do you think God wants people to grudgingly follow Him because He has been proven to exist???

No my friend. God is seeking people who have faith/trust in Him even when they do not understand all His will or can prove His existence.

John 20
27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

I have never gone out to prove God exists. And i know that no one can prove that God does not exist either. Some of the vain attempts i have seen in here make me laugh so much they bring me to tears.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[QUOTE=Adstar]While some of their family members might be Christian the solders who went to iraq to fight where certainly Not Christians. They where not following The Messiah Jesus in doing what they where doing they where following worldly political masters Not the Lord Jesus. So Yes i slap them in the face if they dare to declare their war fighting sons and daughters Christians, they are liars to God and deceivers for calling their sons and daughter Christians.

*************
M*W: You ignorant bastard. You are the one who deserves beheading. The atheists on sciforums would even pray for that!

Thank you MW for confirming prophesy.

Revelation 20:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Yes i have no doubt that you would gladly murder me. You took part in mass murder in Vietnam and the poisoning of the unborn innocents with Agent Orange. Just as these solders fired of thousands of Depleted Uranium rounds all over Iraq condemning the unborn innocents to gruesome deformities, pain and death into the future.( Oh by the way I have seen a lot of pictures of these deformed babies and be assured they are gruesome)

God will avenge the innocent victims you took part in hurting as well as the innocent victims these mass murdering solders of today will be killing for generations to come.

John 17
14I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

Why do the evil hate me.. Because i reveal their evil, and that’s one thing that puffed up arrogant people can never stand. The truth.

You may indeed hack my head off one day MW But the eternal victory is with Jesus and I will be with Him. All anti-christs like you will be in the eternal lake of fire writhing in unimaginable agony.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

So, your prayers for some selfish petty things get answered while the prayers to put an end to starving children and disease go unanswered.

Yes, your god has ultimate wisdom and you trust him in these matters.

Why would he grant you your petty wishes and withhold prayers that actually had meaning?

When did i say all my prayers where for material things for my personal benefit?

You do not know what i pray for.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060330/ap_on_he_me/prayer_study

according to this study prayer seems to have no power.


Believers why do you pray?

Comfort, wish list, or giving god some ruling advice
If god is all knowing wouldn't it already see what your going to pray for?Yes, and He does. I see that you haven't read/remembered the Bible too much since Jesus mentions that God allready knows what you pray for and the spirit talks to God in words and utterances not speakable for man.

However to pray is good nevertheless since it is *very* comforting and can relieve you of your worries, also it connects you in a very deep level where you can confess and seek solutions to your problems (and of course pray for help). Don't underestimate the power of prayer. The Bible tells us that we will find what we seek for. The prayer helps us to establish what we want to search for, so that we constantly search for it, and thus find it where it is (since we know what to look for).

It is so easy to forget.

Adstar: Thank you MW for confirming prophesy.

*************
M*W: You're not just an ignorant bastard, you're an ignorant christian bastard. You defile your own kind and are an apostate to your faith. You need not worry about atheists murdering your sorry ass, we will gladly dust off your worthlessness from our hands. It will be your own brethren who do you deservedly in. You are a bigot to your own kind. I can't think of anything lower than you.

Yes i have no doubt that you would gladly murder me. You took part in mass murder in Vietnam and the poisoning of the unborn innocents with Agent Orange. Just as these solders fired of thousands of Depleted Uranium rounds all over Iraq condemning the unborn innocents to gruesome deformities, pain and death into the future.( Oh by the way I have seen a lot of pictures of these deformed babies and be assured they are gruesome)

*************
M*W: You are one sick individual. Yes, I took part in Vietnam, but I murdered no one. I saved lives. That was my job. I bear no guilt for my service to my country. Both my parents served in the US military (Army and Navy). They were in no way to blame for the atrocities in Japan and Korea, just like I'm not to blame for the horrors in Vietnam. (Yes, those were horrors I saw with my own eyes). My children are in no way to blame for the War in Iraq. No one desires the collateral damage of war, but I have never seen another human being gloat over the loss of lives of those who served their country --especially one's own ilk, like you. How shameful and embarassing! I certainly hope to see comments the christians on this forum post. Even I, as an atheist, feel the pain of christian families and friends who lost soldiers in wars, but you are a judgmental christian who has no regard for human life and sacrifice!

God will avenge the innocent victims you took part in hurting as well as the innocent victims these mass murdering solders of today will be killing for generations to come.

*************
M*W: If there were a god, which there's not, he should know what's in my heart. But since there is no god, it is enough for me to know what is in my heart. It is not for you to judge me based on what I did for my country, because you don't know. You 'assume' I was running around in the jungle with an M16. You couldn't be more wrong.

Why do the evil hate me.. Because i reveal their evil, and that’s one thing that puffed up arrogant people can never stand. The truth.

*************
M*W: Why do you 'assume' everybody but yourself is evil? LOL
You reveal nothing except your ignorance which is massive.

You may indeed hack my head off one day MW But the eternal victory is with Jesus and I will be with Him. All anti-christs like you will be in the eternal lake of fire writhing in unimaginable agony.

*************
M*W: Well, since no one has come back from your heaven or hell, and no one has yet to even senr a message from their eternal location, it would seem that heaven and hell are both imaginary locations created to extend fear and to control the minds of 'believers'. You are an evil christian. You are possessed by the ignorance in your own mind.

Lets' start by selling off all the churches and land used for religious purposes and use that money to feed starving children. Do you have a problem with that?
Let's start by having the rich pay taxes, whoever they are, and in whatever situation, church or corporation, or private individual.
There will be an excess of funding, although we still won't use it to help anyone, we'll just improve our war machines.

p.s. We should be able to have nothing but pity for people who got wrangled into iraq, even if they are stupid enough to believe they are fighting a "just" war. Those people may be christian, but the american government is not, that is for sure.

Let's start by having the rich pay taxes, whoever they are, and in whatever situation, church or corporation, or private individual.
There will be an excess of funding, although we still won't use it to help anyone, we'll just improve our war machines.


indeed,

Actually Q I think you'll find that 'we' are responsible for those children dying and starving, we have enough wealth in this world to put an end to starvation and poverty, but WE choose not to. I guess when we stop being greedy and decide to cure our own problems and those of others we will have evolved at last into the higher beings we constantly rant on that we are.

God, has provided the means to cure these problems, just we prefer to use those 'means' for other purposes.
Your reasoning is badly flawed. You assume that we are responsible for starvation because we could end the starvation but choose not to. The thing is, God is also able to end the starvation (in fact, it should be even easier for him than it would be for us!) but God also apparently chooses not to end it. So why is it that we're being remiss when we don't end starvation, yet God isn't being remiss when he doesn't end the starvation?

Your image of God seems to be like a parent who always puts enough food on the dinner table to feed all their children, but then stands by and does nothing when the older, bigger children steal the food from the small children. When one of the smaller children begs the parent to intervene so that they can get their fair share, the parent says, "I gave you all enough food to feed everyone. If you all can't share properly it isn't my problem." Then the parent sits back and watches the bigger children steal the food until small children starve to death.

That's a very strange image of a "loving" parent! In fact, I’m sure most people (including virtually all Christians) would condemn such a parent as monstrous. Yet for some reason, it never occurs to them that god is engaged in exactly the same behavior.

That's one of the big things that I've never understood about Christians. They all assume that god doesn't want things like, say, people starving to death. If that were the case, then why wouldn't god do something about it?. If a starving person is unable to feed himself and prays to god for food, but god doesn't send any food, what can we conclude other than that god must have wanted the person to starve? If god is infinite and all-powerful, then it should be trivially easy for him to provide food for a starving person - and yet he doesn't. Perhaps you could argue that god would prefer for us to feed each other without his intervention, but why would he still refuse to help when it's clear that his intervention is the only way that starvation would be averted?

Also, it’s worth noting that even though today with refrigeration and our ability to easily send huge quantities of food around the world in planes and ships, that wasn’t always the case. So while you could reasonably argue that humans have the power to end starvation everywhere in the world if we chose to, that argument doesn’t apply to the many, many instances of famine that couldn’t have been helped throughout history that god still apparently chose to do nothing about.

Also, it’s worth noting that even though today with refrigeration and our ability to easily send huge quantities of food around the world in planes and ships, that wasn’t always the case. So while you could reasonably argue that humans have the power to end starvation everywhere in the world if we chose to, that argument doesn’t apply to the many, many instances of famine that couldn’t have been helped throughout history that god still apparently chose to do nothing about.


First off, I'm not a Christian so cannot comment on their view of God, my view does not involve God as parent figure either so don't know what that reply was all about really? With my view of God, the world as it is, with all its crap, makes sense, but you wouldn't know anything about my view would you, you're just presuming to know?

You presume God doesn't want starvation, and so doesn't exist as if he did he'd end it? Well that makes no sense, he does exist or he doesn't? Make up your mind.

Why assume God doesn't want starvation? Sufferring is neccessary in order to intiate compassion.

Meanwhile we could end starvation and poverty, the lack of success in relief efforts made thus far is lack of good management, pure and simple.

The remedy is there, we just (as had been said already in another thread) spend the money on arms instead.

You presume God doesn't want starvation, and so doesn't exist as if he did he'd end it? Well that makes no sense, he does exist or he doesn't? Make up your mind.

No, I said that other people (most Christians) seem to believe that god doesn't want people to starve. I also said that this view didn't make sense to me, because it seems unlikely that god would let people starve if he didn't want them to. I was making a general comment about christianity that wasn't directed specifically at you, sorry if there was confusion there.

Why assume God doesn't want starvation? Sufferring is neccessary in order to intiate compassion.

Just out of curiosity, would compassion even be necessary if suffering didn't exist?

The problem with this reasoning is that it forgets that we are the ones who took a comfortable (enough) planet and killed each other, and stole from each other, and exploited each other's resources, and acted completely unfairly and greedily - now we say, "god must not exist because god didn't stop us from doing that to each other", but then if God controlled us we would say, "we don't have freedom, God is a monster incapable of letting humans exist at all because God is forcing them to become robots."

The system is such that we are supposed to be humans and make our own decisions, and have responsibility for our actions - perhaps it would have been better for us not to have existed at all, and have only animals or robots on the planet, but that is not the system - we exist, let's not complain about that.

P.s. nasor, I agree that it is strange to say God is omnipotent but things happen in a way that that is against God's wishes. If God allows freedom, and suffering comes with freedom, then God allows suffering.

The problem with this reasoning is that it forgets that we are the ones who took a comfortable (enough) planet and killed each other, and stole from each other, and exploited each other's resources, and acted completely unfairly and greedily - now we say, "god must not exist because god didn't stop us from doing that to each other", but then if God controlled us we would say, "we don't have freedom, God is a monster incapable of letting humans exist at all because God is forcing them to become robots."

The system is such that we are supposed to be humans and make our own decisions, and have responsibility for our actions - perhaps it would have been better for us not to have existed at all, and have only animals or robots on the planet, but that is not the system - we exist, let's not complain about that.

P.s. nasor, I agree that it is strange to say God is omnipotent but things happen in a way that that is against God's wishes. If God allows freedom, and suffering comes with freedom, then God allows suffering.

well said.

Meanwhile Nasor re 'sufferring and compassion' issue.
There can be no good without evil, think about that for a while, this is not a God ponderance, it's a philosophical one. But the philosophical answer should clarify why sufferring and compassion exist and why each has its place in the world.

No, I said that other people (most Christians) seem to believe that god doesn't want people to starve. I also said that this view didn't make sense to me, because it seems unlikely that god would let people starve if he didn't want them to. I was making a general comment about christianity that wasn't directed specifically at you, sorry if there was confusion there.

Just out of curiosity, would compassion even be necessary if suffering didn't exist?

here a useful link I just found! http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/evil.html

quoted from link as taster of contents:

"Probe Ministries
The Problem of Evil
How Can A Good God Allow Evil?
Rick Rood

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Problem of Evil - Introduction
John Stott has said that "the fact of suffering undoubtedly constitutes the single greatest challenge to the Christian faith." It is unquestionably true that there is no greater obstacle to faith than that of the reality of evil and suffering in the world. Indeed, even for the believing Christian, there is no greater test of faith than this--that the God who loves him permits him to suffer, at times in excruciating ways. And the disillusionment is intensified in our day when unrealistic expectations of health and prosperity are fed by the teachings of a multitude of Christian teachers. Why does a good God allow his creatures, and even his children to suffer?
First, it's important to distinguish between two kinds of evil: moral evil and natural evil. Moral evil results from the actions of free creatures. Murder, rape and theft are examples. Natural evil results from natural processes such as earthquakes and floods. Of course, sometimes the two are intermingled, such as when flooding results in loss of human life due to poor planning or shoddy construction of buildings.

It's also important to identify two aspects of the problem of evil and suffering. First, there is the philosophical or apologetic aspect. This is the problem of evil approached from the standpoint of the skeptic who challenges the possibility or probability that a God exists who would allow such suffering. In meeting this apologetic challenge we must utilize the tools of reason and evidence in "giving a reason for the hope within us." (I Pet. 3:15)

Second is the religious or emotional aspect of the problem of evil. This is the problem of evil approached from the standpoint of the believer whose faith in God is severely tested by trial. How can we love and worship God when He allows us to suffer in these ways? In meeting the religious/emotional challenge we must appeal to the truth revealed by God in Scripture. We will address both aspects of the problem of evil in this essay.

It's also helpful to distinguish between two types of the philosophical or apologetic aspect of the problem of evil. The first is the logical challenge to belief in God. This challenge says it is irrational and hence impossible to believe in the existence of a good and powerful God on the basis of the existence of evil in the world. The logical challenge is usually posed in the form of a statement such as this:


A good God would destroy evil.
An all powerful God could destroy evil.
Evil is not destroyed.
Therefore, there cannot possibly be such a good and powerful God. "

It's a Christian explanation, so not sure I agree with it! But none the less an interesting read!

A good God wouldn't ultimately have to destroy evil. He could have invented it in order to teach humans that they have a choice, and that our judgement will be made based on our choices. Although, an allmighty God could destroy evil, and based upon indoctrinated beliefs, He probably will, no-one could say that He'd have to just because He is able to.

But back to praying, my mother, who's a christian, claims that if she lives a life accordingly to the divine laws put upon man, what she wishes/hopes/prays for, will, in some extent, be made real. Hence the judgement based on actions.

There can be no good without evil, think about that for a while, this is not a God ponderance, it's a philosophical one. But the philosophical answer should clarify why sufferring and compassion exist and why each has its place in the world.
the things we call good could still exist without evil, we just wouldn't have the knowledge or distinction available to our consciousness'. That wouldn't be so bad. Evil things aren't necessary to have around for good things to exist, just to allow us to ponder the difference.

The power of prayer works in my life.


A good God would destroy evil.
An all powerful God could destroy evil.
Evil is not destroyed.
Therefore, there cannot possibly be such a good and powerful God. "

It's a Christian explanation, so not sure I agree with it! But none the less an interesting read!

I will have to read that.

There are those who say they are Christians but are in fact not Christians.
I would say that the author's logic is very flawed because he does not understand the truth of GOD's love. I would say that he is NOT a Christian even though he says he is if that is his take on GOD.

We box GOD into our own finite view so that we can bring HIM down to our level and tell HIM HE is not what HE says HE is so that we can go along our merrily way of continuing the evil and blaming HIM for it.

Lest we forget there were acts of destruction of evil... but the scoffers who convolute for their own agendas will call them myths to dismiss them.

And it is a good thing that GOD is a loving and patient GOD or HE'd wipe out all humanity that did not know HIS Son as redeemer of their souls. How many of you does that include?
The goodness of humanity is as filthy rags to GOD. We'd all be wiped out because our hearts are deceitfully wicked and who can know them.

His goodness is that he tolerates and loves us when we should be put to death.
We are arrogantly prideful to think we are as good or better than GOD.

The evil is perpetrated by the wicked heart of mankind.
Why are we not taking responsibility for it?? Why are we passing the buck to GOD?

Do you blame your parents for your lacking in your life instead of taking responsibility for your mismanagement of what was given to you?

If so, why do you do that?

Who says HE will not destroy evil? I say HE is patient to destroy the world waiting for that last soul to believe on HIS Son before HE brings the judgement and destruction on the evil of the world.

Adstar:

*************
M*W: You're not just an ignorant bastard, you're an ignorant christian bastard. You defile your own kind and are an apostate to your faith. You need not worry about atheists murdering your sorry ass, we will gladly dust off your worthlessness from our hands. It will be your own brethren who do you deservedly in. You are a bigot to your own kind. I can't think of anything lower than you.


My kind follow the Messiah Jesus As Lord as well as Savoir.



*************
M*W: You are one sick individual. Yes, I took part in Vietnam, but I murdered no one. I saved lives. That was my job. I bear no guilt for my service to my country. Both my parents served in the US military (Army and Navy). They were in no way to blame for the atrocities in Japan and Korea, just like I'm not to blame for the horrors in Vietnam. (Yes, those were horrors I saw with my own eyes). My children are in no way to blame for the War in Iraq. No one desires the collateral damage of war, but I have never seen another human being gloat over the loss of lives of those who served their country --especially one's own ilk, like you. How shameful and embarassing! I certainly hope to see comments the christians on this forum post. Even I, as an atheist, feel the pain of christian families and friends who lost soldiers in wars, but you are a judgmental christian who has no regard for human life and sacrifice!

Was i gloating over the deaths of these solders was i gloating over anyone’s death???? No. You where there to support the killing in Vietnam and you are responsible for all the actions of the forces you serviced and supported.



*************
M*W: If there were a god, which there's not, he should know what's in my heart. But since there is no god, it is enough for me to know what is in my heart. It is not for you to judge me based on what I did for my country, because you don't know. You 'assume' I was running around in the jungle with an M16. You couldn't be more wrong.

Of course i know you where not running around in the jungle with an M16 I know you where a nurse in a medic Unit. Does that change anything? Your primary role was to patch up solders to make them available to go out and murder again. Therefore you take direct part in all their doings.

Yes God knows your heart and your expressing it here very well. You stand up like a pound arrogant person you are and scream that you are justified in what you have done. You have expressed your support for your nations actions in war, You have shown where your allegiance is. In the satanic powers that be in this world. So yeah God does know where you stand.



*************
M*W: Why do you 'assume' everybody but yourself is evil? LOL
You reveal nothing except your ignorance which is massive.

Where did i say i was not a sinner???????? Don't put words into my mouth, liar.

I agree with God that sin is wrong but you seek to justify your acts of evil by saying you where saving lives. You where not saving lives you where treating people so as to get them back into the fight so they could kill even more lives.



*************
M*W: Well, since no one has come back from your heaven or hell, and no one has yet to even senr a message from their eternal location, it would seem that heaven and hell are both imaginary locations created to extend fear and to control the minds of 'believers'. You are an evil christian. You are possessed by the ignorance in your own mind.

You do not know the meaning of fear, yet. You call the message of peace and love and non-resistance that i give is evil. So be it. You seek to justify yourself and attack anyone who reveals the evil you have taken part in. So be it. But the truth of Eternity with God and of the eternal lake of fire you will come to know. Sooner or later.

So vent and scream all you want anti-christ, your vanity and pride will not change the will of God.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

The power of prayer works in my life.




I will have to read that.

There are those who say they are Christians but are in fact not Christians.
I would say that the author's logic is very flawed because he does not understand the truth of GOD's love. I would say that he is NOT a Christian even though he says he is if that is his take on GOD.

.

Finewine THIS IS NOT the authors take on God, if you read the post or the link you'll see its just a bunch of questions that arise (usually by athiests) that he then goes to answer.

When did i say all my prayers where for material things for my personal benefit?

You do not know what i pray for.

It doesn't matter what you pray for, that isn't the issue. And it would appear you don't have an answer because there isn't an answer. Prayer doesn't work, its that simple.

If it did, I should be able to pray to god to feed HIS CREATIONS. He refuses to do so.

Either he is a very cruel god or he simply doesn't exist. Take your choice.

It doesn't matter what you pray for, that isn't the issue. And it would appear you don't have an answer because there isn't an answer. Prayer doesn't work, its that simple.

If it did, I should be able to pray to god to feed HIS CREATIONS. He refuses to do so.

Either he is a very cruel god or he simply doesn't exist. Take your choice.

God created death, he won't stop it. Life is cruel in some ways. That's the way it is.

Let's start by having the rich pay taxes, whoever they are, and in whatever situation, church or corporation, or private individual.
There will be an excess of funding, although we still won't use it to help anyone, we'll just improve our war machines.

p.s. We should be able to have nothing but pity for people who got wrangled into iraq, even if they are stupid enough to believe they are fighting a "just" war. Those people may be christian, but the american government is not, that is for sure.

Well, the rich do pay taxes, but giving more money to governments isn't going to solve the problem.

Theists, need to sell off those worthless buildings and land and use that money to feed the starving. Isn't that what their god would want them to do?

If not, why doesn't god simply do it himself? They are his creations, aren't they? Does he create people only to sit back and watch them starve to death?

God created death, he won't stop it. Life is cruel in some ways. That's the way it is.

Then, god is cruel because he gives life to all and life is cruel. Thats the way it is?

The problem with this reasoning is that it forgets that we are the ones who took a comfortable (enough) planet and killed each other, and stole from each other, and exploited each other's resources, and acted completely unfairly and greedily - now we say, "god must not exist because god didn't stop us from doing that to each other"
When Christians are faced with the question of “If God loves us, why doesn’t he help us when bad things happen?” they like to try to change it around to “Why doesn’t god stop people from doing bad things to other people?” Obviously these are not the same question. While you could perhaps use the argument about god not wanting to interfere with human free will to explain why he doesn’t stop people from deliberately hurting each other (although I think it is a weak argument), it doesn’t explain why god would refuse to answer a starving person’s prayers for food.

When a person in a drought-ridden African country prays to God for food and God doesn’t send food, what are we to conclude from that other than that God must have wanted the person to suffer and starve? but then if God controlled us we would say, "we don't have freedom, God is a monster incapable of letting humans exist at all because God is forcing them to become robots."
This is just silly. It would not interfere in human free will in any way for God to give food to starving people, or prevent people from suffering from horrible diseases, or do most of the other things that people routinely beg God for.

P.s. nasor, I agree that it is strange to say God is omnipotent but things happen in a way that that is against God's wishes. If God allows freedom, and suffering comes with freedom, then God allows suffering.
It is difficult to imagine how a child suffering horribly and dying from a disease like progeria has anything to do with human freedom. No one chose for the child to get sick. No one even wanted the child to get sick. In fact, if a doctor had a cure for the child but refused to administer it for no apparent reason, people would say that the doctor was a horrible, evil person who should be reviled.

There can be no good without evil, think about that for a while, this is not a God ponderance, it's a philosophical one. But the philosophical answer should clarify why sufferring and compassion exist and why each has its place in the world.
I suppose evil would have to exist as an abstract concept if good were to exist, since if good existed then the opposite of good would have to be a theoretical possibility. But that doesn't mean that evil things would ever actually have to happen. There's no reason why we couldn't live in such a way that everything was good and evil was merely a theoretical possibility that was never made manifest in real world.

Well, the rich do pay taxes, but giving more money to governments isn't going to solve the problem.

Theists, need to sell off those worthless buildings and land and use that money to feed the starving. Isn't that what their god would want them to do?

If not, why doesn't god simply do it himself? They are his creations, aren't they? Does he create people only to sit back and watch them starve to death?
the rich in america have a lot of ways to avoid paying taxes, and they use them.
Once I had an actual job making music and wasn't working for myself and was making a lot of money and someone told me I had to buy a house or I was a dumbass, because I get to write off the interest on the loan, which is most of your payment. So I did, and did.
Basically, if you are too poor to buy a house you have to pay taxes on your housing and if you can buy a house you can make money instead of paying money, and avoid paying taxes on your housing, and on top of that not pay taxes on your profit, as long as you have enough money to buy a new house when you sell your house. Get my point about taxes? There are many more extravagant examples, but that should be a sufficient example.
Maybe you live in denmark or something.

If you see existence as cruel, you may see God as cruel.
I see existence as fairly benign, and people as cruel, and if people worked together there would be less than 5% of the suffering we have. I think this is hard to refute.
Now I agree, if God created us, it is his fault, but then you are going to have to condemn our existence as we are, which is hard to do, because we have no idea what it would be like if things were better. A stubbed toe could become somehow a life-changing, horrific, soul-mutilating event (I admit that it might not), but we don't know.

I will say this - I also wonder why God didn't just make us good instead of able to fuck things up, which is first shown by the story of adam and eve fucking things up.
I think it is to allow to evolve to the level of consciousness necessary to experience God, or have anyone feel that they do, in any way. That is just my thought though. Being happy animals instead of humans is a choice some peope would go for - i would not.

the rich in america have a lot of ways to avoid paying taxes, and they use them.

Don't you yourself look for ways to avoid paying taxes?

Do churches pay taxes?

If you see existence as cruel, you may see God as cruel.

I see mankinds existence as a most wondrous thing. I see peoples versions of their gods as cruel.

I see existence as fairly benign, and people as cruel, and if people worked together there would be less than 5% of the suffering we have. I think this is hard to refute.

People can be cruel, but they can also understand cruelty and understand its consequences, and they can choose not to be cruel. That is the essence of our existence, the ability to reason and act upon it.

But mankind has been inundated with centuries of religious thought and dogma. Our very way of life is the result of those beliefs. The majority of the worlds population are religious, billions of people who believe in the supernatural.

The cruelty and suffering you see today is a result of those centuries of religious thought and dogma.

Now I agree, if God created us, it is his fault, but then you are going to have to condemn our existence as we are, which is hard to do, because we have no idea what it would be like if things were better.

Of course not, mankind hasn't had a chance to exist religious-free for a very long time, if ever. Is there any reason you can see for not trying?

I will say this - I also wonder why God didn't just make us good instead of able to fuck things up, which is first shown by the story of adam and eve fucking things up.

You can do good yourself, anyone can, and can do it all the time, if you so desire. They just have to believe that its themselves that are doing it. What's so hard about that?

I think it is to allow to evolve to the level of consciousness necessary to experience God, or have anyone feel that they do, in any way. That is just my thought though. Being happy animals instead of humans is a choice some peope would go for - i would not.

I would make the same choice as you, to be a human. All one must do is evolve to the level of reason necessary to experience humanity.

Don't you yourself look for ways to avoid paying taxes?
I just explained how i did. In response to you saying the rich pay taxes. In response to me saying they don't. My explanation of how i avoid payng taxes shows my point.

Do churches pay taxes?
They should. Any profit should be taxed.

I see mankinds existence as a most wondrous thing. I see peoples versions of their gods as cruel.
your version of their gods.

The cruelty and suffering you see today is a result of those centuries of religious thought and dogma.
This is a myopic view of the causes of human suffering, there are more reasons why humans hurt each other than religious ones.

I would make the same choice as you, to be a human. All one must do is evolve to the level of reason necessary to experience humanity.
Without pressure, no change is necessary. I personally think that a necessary pressure for the evolution of that level of reason may be negative circumstance.

post one iota of pray actuelly working, or have worked. it just ai'nt going to happen.

I just explained how i did. In response to you saying the rich pay taxes. In response to me saying they don't. My explanation of how i avoid payng taxes shows my point.

Actually, your point is moot because everyone avoids paying taxes, not just the rich.

your version of their gods.

Sorry, but I have no versions of any gods, because I have no concept of religion other than what has been presented to me by theists and their scriptures.

This is a myopic view of the causes of human suffering, there are more reasons why humans hurt each other than religious ones.

The majority of human suffering has been caused by religious people driven by their beliefs. We can start there simply because it's easily identifiable as such. By removing the religion and substituting it with education, much of the cruelty and suffering would stop.

Without pressure, no change is necessary. I personally think that a necessary pressure for the evolution of that level of reason may be negative circumstance.

How can that be? Circumstances are neither positive or negative, it is the perception and way of thought that makes it such.

Being human means to be part of the earth, and not part of a glorified fantasy.

**Here's the question from Marilyn's column:

Q: Is it true that the rich pay very little tax?

A: No, and this is the myth, more than any other, that has created the unwarranted and destructive dissension among the so-called economic classes in this country. The wealthy pay a truly stunning amount of tax, and there are virtually no exceptions. Anyone who thinks otherwise has been misguided.**http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_139.html

**Yes, the bottom 62% of taxpayers -those with annual incomes under $40,000 - will get only 10% of the total income tax cut under a plan that cuts each tax rate by 10%. But these people pay less than 5% of total income taxes, according to data from the House Ways and Means Committee.

And while it's also fair to say that the top 10% - those who earn more than $89,000 a year - will get 62% of the total tax cut, an honest analysis would include the percentage of total income taxes these people pay. In fact, the Ways and Means numbers show that the top 8.7% of earners pay 62% of all income taxes in the U.S.** http://reason.com/opeds/lynch022499.shtml

**What had gotten the class-warfare crowd so worked up was my statement that no one can credibly call the Bush tax plan a "tax cut for the rich" because the rich pay a larger share of federal income taxes than they would have if Bush hadn't cut taxes.

My source is a study by the Treasury Department on tax shares paid by income groups. Treasury estimates that the top 1 percent will pay about 32.3 percent of all taxes this year. Treasury also estimates that absent the tax cuts, the top 1 percent would be paying only 30.5 percent of taxes, down 10 percent from 2001.**http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_19_56/ai_n13673328

Don't tell me about the rich not paying taxes, That's a load of BS, though I'm not rich my father was moderately well off, he used to tell us, the freaking taxes is draining him. My pops made well over 300k a year, one way he hid his income was to create dummy corporations, there are tactics one can use to cut their taxes. Is this fair. I believe so, cause income tax mandated by a government is unfair, and amoral. That just makes us slaves, and the rich pay for the poor, it has been, always will be. Though because of life style differences, the poor always thinks they are getting duped. p

Think of this way, if it were not for the rich enterprizing people, were the hell would you get any income.? The rich provide jobs, they pay more taxes on income earned, but they also use their "brains" to find loopholes! ;)

Godless

Your father's dummy corporations are just another example of the rich not paying their taxes.
Now, whether or not the income tax is fair is another subject, I don't insist either way, I was just talking about the resources that are available to feed the starving children in africa.
If you follow the idea that taxes are not equitable to the extreme, perhaps we shouldn't even have public schools for the poor people's children, or public water purification facilities.

edit- we're way off the subject now obviously

I was just pointing out that we have the resources for everyone to be reasonably cared for, so we are responsible, whether or not God exists.

Sorry, but I have no versions of any gods, because I have no concept of religion other than what has been presented to me by theists and their scriptures.
your version is the version you recieved from those people. You cannot add anything intelligent to a subject you have no perceptions about, you can just say, no, or yes, or grunt. I have perceptions of what it is like to be black, or rich, or gay, they are my perceptions or versions of the experience, although I don't have a personally verifiable version. It is the same with your idea of God if you have no personal experience with a version of God. Or maybe your version is a version you had in the past - it is still your version, even if you use it to insist that the physical existence of the idea presented by your version is impossible.


The majority of human suffering has been caused by religious people driven by their beliefs. We can start there simply because it's easily identifiable as such. By removing the religion and substituting it with education, much of the cruelty and suffering would stop.
The cause of religious beliefs being twisted to hurt and destroy is human greed and pride. We had humans, and their anscestors probably, killing each other and hurting each other before we had any importance paid to religious ideas I'm sure.


How can that be? Circumstances are neither positive or negative, it is the perception and way of thought that makes it such.

Being human means to be part of the earth, and not part of a glorified fantasy.I am saying that evolutionarily change is made possible by environmental pressure. Without that, random changes could occur I guess, but not focused changes.

I was just pointing out that we have the resources for everyone to be reasonably cared for, so we are responsible, whether or not God exists.

We may have the resources but we certainly don't care for everyone, otherwise would children be starving to death every day?

your version is the version you recieved from those people. You cannot add anything intelligent to a subject you have no perceptions about, you can just say, no, or yes, or grunt. I have perceptions of what it is like to be black, or rich, or gay, they are my perceptions or versions of the experience, although I don't have a personally verifiable version. It is the same with your idea of God if you have no personal experience with a version of God. Or maybe your version is a version you had in the past - it is still your version, even if you use it to insist that the physical existence of the idea presented by your version is impossible.

You're confused. I have NO versions of god myself. I am unable to provide a version of a god since there is nothing whatsoever, other than scriptures and the imaginations of others, to refer. And even then, the versions provided by theists are vague at best.

You may have perceptions of blacks, the rich or gay people, but these are real tangible things, not fantasies conjured in the minds of men.

The cause of religious beliefs being twisted to hurt and destroy is human greed and pride. We had humans, and their anscestors probably, killing each other and hurting each other before we had any importance paid to religious ideas I'm sure.

No, religious beliefs are what twisted the minds of men to hurt and destroy in the name of their gods.

Yes, our anscestors probably did kill each other, by the same ignorance that religion now provides. It is only through reason and rationale that we can put an end to that destruction. Religion may have tried, but failed, miserably.

Had we the forethought to go the way of reason instead of religion centuries ago, our way of life would be very different indeed. There would be no wars, no famine, no disease, and most importantly, no ignorance and fear, that which drives religion.

:) You assume it is Gods Will that that men using their logic would be able to prove His existence. [snip]
How oddly convenient...

You're confused. I have NO versions of god myself. I am unable to provide a version of a god since there is nothing whatsoever, other than scriptures and the imaginations of others, to refer. And even then, the versions provided by theists are vague at best.
You are confused. If the word "God" has no connotations or meaning to you, you cannot functionally use it in a sentence. If your meaning is, "that thing other people attach meaning to, but i do not," how can you even discuss it? If I said, "finding a man sexually attractive is insane," even though it is unreasonable to me what would you label me? Ignorant. I make no such claims upon other people's ideas because they are the ones who have them, not me - if you have no ideas of your own about God you should not make claims either. What do you say to the person who posted earlier saying God is the inner higher consciousness, or whatever? Tell them their version is incorrect so you can continue trying to explain God as irrational, but by doing so you do claim a version for yourself.


No, religious beliefs are what twisted the minds of men to hurt and destroy in the name of their gods.
contradicts with
Yes, our anscestors probably did kill each other, by the same ignorance that religion now provides.
If the ignorance was there, and is now exemplified by bad religion, does that make bad religion the cause or the effect?

Had we the forethought to go the way of reason instead of religion centuries ago, our way of life would be very different indeed. There would be no wars, no famine, no disease, and most importantly, no ignorance and fear, that which drives religion.
I agree that the way we approached religion in the past was ingorant, fearful, and unreasonable, but that by no means makes religion the cause of our ignorance. Only the abuse of it by power hungry groups and individuals, is the cause of ignorance.

I was just pointing out that we have the resources for everyone to be reasonably cared for, so we are responsible, whether or not God exists.


There are resources though we are not responsible, people, countries, states, head of states, are the ones who need to be responsible. Why should I feed everyone else's kids?, they had them, they should feed them, their state should take care of them, if the state isn't doing their job, then they should overthrow their government. It's not directly or indirectly our responsibility to take care of everyone. If we each cooperated to take care of our own, we would do good enough.

The cause of religious beliefs being twisted to hurt and destroy is human greed and pride.

Read the scriptures, it has always been for human greed and pride. Islamics use their scriputures for greed and pride, as do christians, as well as judaism. It's all for greed and pride.

Godless

There are resources though we are not responsible, people, countries, states, head of states, are the ones who need to be responsible. Why should I feed everyone else's kids?, they had them, they should feed them, their state should take care of them, if the state isn't doing their job, then they should overthrow their government. It's not directly or indirectly our responsibility to take care of everyone. If we each cooperated to take care of our own, we would do good enough.
If we have not benefited in any way from the processes that have left such a disparity between the comfortable and the starving, yes. England should be first on the list for aid to india and africa after many years of stripping these countries of their resources. And every american should give a little something to help educate american indians, for example. Other than those who have benefited from another's pain, you are right, communities should probably take care of themselves.
If the people who have directly benefited from the appropriation of resources gave back, that would be enough for everyone to have their bowl of rice and vegetables, clean water, etc.


Read the scriptures, it has always been for human greed and pride. Islamics use their scriputures for greed and pride, as do christians, as well as judaism. It's all for greed and pride.

Godless
The question is, are the scriptures interpreted this way because we are deficient in qualities of love and care for others, and have plenty of selfishness and distrust of alien entities, or are the scriptures the cause of this?
You know my answer, and you know it is just as valid a possibility as yours, because like nietzsche pointed out, it is impossible to apply our ideas to an earlier pre-historic society, which 99% did exist , before religion was ever a major factor in society.

You are confused. If the word "God" has no connotations or meaning to you, you cannot functionally use it in a sentence. If your meaning is, "that thing other people attach meaning to, but i do not," how can you even discuss it? If I said, "finding a man sexually attractive is insane," even though it is unreasonable to me what would you label me? Ignorant. I make no such claims upon other people's ideas because they are the ones who have them, not me - if you have no ideas of your own about God you should not make claims either. What do you say to the person who posted earlier saying God is the inner higher consciousness, or whatever? Tell them their version is incorrect so you can continue trying to explain God as irrational, but by doing so you do claim a version for yourself.

Again, confused. I cannot provide you with a description of a god in any way other than what has been described in scriptures and by other theists. Therefore, if I can read about a god and listen to theists talk about their gods, I most certainly can question them.

I've made no claims of a god, that is the work of theists. And I don't tell them their versions of god are incorrect, I tell them that their versions are indistinguishable from their imaginations.

And what's most interesting is that each persons version is different from the next. And they all claim there is only one god. Silly, isn't it?

If the ignorance was there, and is now exemplified by bad religion, does that make bad religion the cause or the effect?

The ignorance of not knowing anything was there first, then the ignorance of trying to explain everything with religion supplanted the first.

I agree that the way we approached religion in the past was ingorant, fearful, and unreasonable, but that by no means makes religion the cause of our ignorance. Only the abuse of it by power hungry groups and individuals, is the cause of ignorance.

Yes, religion is the cause of ignorance and fear, without them, religion wouldn't exist.

Surely, pure religion could be pure couldn't it?

If the people who have directly benefited from the appropriation of resources gave back, that would be enough for everyone to have their bowl of rice and vegetables, clean water, etc.

Again, you appear to be retreating back to the image of a god who says "I gave them enough for them to take care of themselves. If they can't cooperate or share, screw 'em." Although this is perhaps a possible explanation for why god would refuse to help people, it is not at all consistent with the traditional Christian view of god - that god is a loving being who cares about us.

A parent who gives their children enough food to eat but then watches without interfering when the smaller children starve to death because the bigger children constantly steal their food, even as the smaller children beg the parent for help, is indeed one possible type of parent – but they could hardly be considered a “loving” or “caring” parent. In fact most people, including virtually all Christians, would call such a parent evil and monstrous. The best thing you could say about such a parent (or such a god) would be that they had an interest in some of their children surviving, but didn’t care how many of their children survived and have no interest in the welfare of any specific child.