Moderator-This might get ugly. If you'd rather I not do this, please let me know.

Lori-Let's go.

So far there is nothing in existence that cannot be explained through chemical reactions. I believe the big bang was just one of many. As to where the chemicals came from, well, it's the same answer as to where god came from. Where are we going? Wherever we point ourselves until the reactions die out.

So much for my religious beliefs. I can probably guess yours, but if you want to sum them up, go for it.

I have two questions to start off with. 1) Am I dealing with an adult or a kid (under 18)? I don't care how old you actually are. I am an adult, and there is certain language I don't use around kids no matter how ticked off I might get. It's just a personal value and it has nothing to do with how serious I'll take you. (You know, the "s/he's just a kid so what do they know" syndrome.) 2) Could you please explain your signature? It doesn't seem to bear up unless you're into abusive relationships.

[This message has been edited by Oxygen (edited September 11, 1999).]

Come on now, it's not gonna get that ugly. I agree with you. Everything can be explained by a chemical reaction of some kind. I think that science is the method, and God is the reason. The Bible doesn't get into specifics on genetics and the science behind everything, just the why, not the how.

I'm 32, and I should really watch my mouth. You're right. You know, there are kids out here reading this stuff, and I shouldn't be so mouthy. I'm not an "accomplished" Christian, but one none the less. And what I mean by my sig is that I DO love you. I do, because God does, in an I love humanity kind of way, you know? Just because I get lippy, doesn't mean I don't wub u. I just disagree with you, that's all. I'm not into abusive relationships, I just get pissed because everyone out here on the board thinks I'm loony. I'm used to being the "smarty-pants". Straight A honors student, first woman in the family to graduate college, the one everybody comes to for advice, the "good little girl". Though, I did do my best to destroy that persona in my 20's. LOL! Anyway, I'm not used to being called a nut. I'm used to being called an excellent thinker. (if you can believe that!)

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God loves you and so do I!

Wow! And I was ready for a fight!

Well, I meant what I said about your writing. It's very top notch. I, too, am 32. Anyone who considers you a nut should remember that Copernicus was also thought of as a loon. I think that somewhere in the heat of the moment people all too readily forget that their view isn't the only view. I am, as I have said, an atheist. My father, however, is Roman-Catholic. We live in a Catholic neighborhood and I am treated like I have some kind of weird disease (except by my father, who is convinced that sooner or later I'll see the light). If someone has an opposing viewpoint to my own, I become very interested in hearing their side. If all they want to do is shake their fingers and tell me I'm wrong without any explanation, I try to ignore them.

Have you ever read the bible? I mean, REALLY read it? Some people flip through a couple of passages now and then and claim to have read it, but the whole book, from Old Testament to New, is chock full of contradictions. I don't mean just in the history or the storyline, but in the very nature of god. It's like he's a devoted, caring father in the first part, but in the second half of the Old Testament he's into cruelty (poor Job, and all over a bet with satan...) and vindictiveness. There's even a passage in Leviticus (I'll have to look for it again) where, if I've read it right, God meets Moses outside a bar and tries to kill him. Looking at it from a psychological standpoint, either God has a split personality, a drinking problem (jk), or there was a change in adminstration. What's your take on it?

For the record, it's a 1971 King James that I have.

(And I'm not sorry to have disappointed any viewers who wanted a cat-fight. I'd always rather be friends.)

Hey there,

Sorry it took so long to respond. I've had my PC down at home, and not much time. I didn't know there was such a thing as a catholic neighborhood! Don't worry, you're not a disease for crying out loud. God loves you just as much as He does them, you just don't know it is all. My little brother is an atheist. I should say younger, not little, as he's 28. I've read most of the Bible, but not all of it. Probably around 80% of it if I had to guess. I kind of jump around, and read different parts, not in chronological order. To be honest, some parts, like Numbers, are just too boring to get through....begat, begat, begat, who cares? Also, there have been many times when I've not understood what I've read. I started reading it without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which is the ONLY way to interpret it correctly, or to get the right message. Still, the language in the KJV is really hard to get used to. I've relied alot on other people's interpretations, though they vary, I ask the Holy Spirit to guide me to the truth. I know there are people who have devoted their whole lives to studying the Bible and interpreting it, so I guess I leave that up to the experts sometimes. Nothing wrong with that, as I would expect that if a theologian wanted his taxes done, he would come and get some of my expertise. You know what's really wierd though, is that even if I really don't understand the entire message of what I'm reading, that just the ACT of reading the Bible makes me feel good. It's just like a sense of peace comes over me that's just trippy. I think the Bible is magical almost. A spiritual phenomenon if you will. I think that there are endless messages and prophecies, and that they are revealed in many different ways depending upon the person who's reading it or interpreting it, or the circumstances of the day. It is definately divine. Because sometimes it seems to contradict, I just assume that I'm not understanding the message correctly is all. And also, you know that God controls Satan, right? So, in a way, God is responsible for the evil that takes place in this world. This life is a test. The most important one that you will ever take. The results are eternal. If it seems that God is cruel, I think that the message is that THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER. I think that the message is trying to give you a little glimpse of hell, you know? The point is that the consequences of disbelief, or disobeying God are terrible. And that's not because God is mean, it's just that we all have a choice, and He's trying to tell us that the choice is an important and eternal one, with glorious or very grave consequences. Hell is no picnic, you know? I have a friend that said that she would rather go to hell, than to change this one particular thing about herself. This particular thing is denounced in the Bible, and is in direct disobedience to God. I really don't think she understands what hell is. Certainly this particular thing does not warrant the consequences. I'm rambling aren't I? Well, I've got to get back to work now. Later, tater.

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God loves you and so do I!

Lori,


And also, you know that God controls Satan, right? So, in a way, God is responsible for the evil that takes place in this world.


Free will or no free will -- <u>that</u> is the question, isn't it? Sorry, just couldn't hold back on that one...

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I am; therefore I think.

The neighborhood I live in is made up of almost all Mexican families. There are two churches with three blocks of my apartment, both are Catholic, and although I'm an atheist, there's something so pastoral about church bells on a Sunday morning that I get the feeling that if there is a god, he doesn't care one whit about what I believe or don't, as long as I am at peace.

I am a fan of the Middle Ages, so the language in the KJV is like a second language to me. It's not the dialect that throws me. What I did, however, was to read the Old Testament as though I was reading a poorly translated history book. The sources that the bible was copied from were most likely incomplete, so some monks may have taken creative liberties here and there to put their point across to the pagans. Also, many books from the complete Old Testament, I have heard, were left out because they were of controversial nature. But I wonder about the books that were left in. Taken at face value, I summarized the "plots" of the Old Testament, using modern English, and sent them to friends of mine and asked what sort of rating they would give them as movies (not telling them what they were). Most came back with an "R" rating, one or two with an "X" rating (for excessive sex and violence) and only two books were fit for family viewing ( one was the Book of Ruth). What are these things doing in a book that is supposed to encourage peace and love?

The New testament is harder for me to read than the Old Testament, mostly because it's so repetitious. Most of the books simply retell the story of Jesu ben Josef (Jesus). They corroborate each other, but I don't know if that's because they are accurate or if the authors were copying each other over the years.

One note on the Book of Ezekiel: many people, UFO enthusiasts in particular, take this book at face value and point to it as evidence for all sorts of things (angels, aliens, etc.) Has anybody ever considered that Zeke ate some bad bread? There's a substance in bread mold that causes the same effect as LSD. Maybe he was hallucinating that wheel with a wheel and all that burnished brass?

(Glad your PCs working!)

[This message has been edited by Oxygen (edited September 17, 1999).]

Boris- re: all the evil in the world and who causes it

I read a story once about a man who confided to a friend that he was so pissed off at all the killing and violence and bad things that happen to innocent people that he wanted to climb the highest mountian in the world and shout to God "Why do you let this happen?"

When his friend asked him why he didn't he replied, "Because I'm afraid He might ask me the same thing."

Boris-My e-mail rang in that you replied to my Religious Debate topic, but I don't see your reply. Could you repost, please? Thanks!

Oxygen - if it seems that God has a split personality, maybe it's because there is more than one "god" whose actions are discussed in the Bible, although there was apparently a God above all other gods (e.g., Genesis 1:26, Genesis 9:26, Genesis 11:6,7, Genesis 14:18-22, Exodus 34:14-16).

Then what about that commandment about having no other gods before the big one?

We mistaken angels and Satan and his demons for gods. Little g's, I like to call them. Would be easy for us earthly dummies to do, since they are so much more powerful than us. We are easily deceived if we don't have a relationship with Jesus. That is why this message in the Bible is so important, and that is why it is important in relation to aliens and their motives.

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God loves you and so do I!

>We mistaken angels and Satan and his demons for gods. Little g's, I like to call them. Would be easy for us earthly dummies to do, since they are so much more powerful than us. We are easily deceived if we don't have a relationship with Jesus. That is why this message in the Bible is so important, and that is why it is important in relation to aliens and their motives.
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Lori,

They were trying to explain the apparently "split" personality of the bible's god. (from malicious to good. From orderly to chaotic.) You are saying that satan and his demons are responsible for roughly HALF of actions in the bible attributed to god? People obeyed, and praised satan and much as god. Satan, (under the guise of god of course) made a bet with himself. Satan gave authority to men AND TO HIMSELF. He can do that?

Now that's just scary. Or rather, would be if it made any sense...

Now this is pretty a strange theory. Even in the context of debate among bible "scholars", I strongly doubt it would hold much water. (no offense intended of course.)


Blacktubby


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Blacktubby,

"Reality has a way of catching up with you, the way the ground catches up with an airplane that runs out of fuel."

Let's not let Lori's most important statement slip through the cracks... "We are easily deceived if we don't have a relationship with Jesus."

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Have a great day!

The Bible is a book which was written by and translated by men. Each saw the stories from a different angle and it was translated the way the church elders wanted and not exactly as it was written in the original langauge. Some of the Hebrew words had two meanings and they chose the one which fit the human ego best. The trinity was not added until about the 14 to 16 century. Mysteries of the Bible on A&E and it is very interesting, Saturdays at 7 PM EDT.

Oxygen,

Then what about that commandment about having no other gods before the big one?

Oh yeah, you mean the "God" who descended in a "cloud" and met Moses face to face as a man on Mount Sinai, and told Moses his name was "Jealous"?

It is my personal belief that the real God is spirit, or energy, if you will. God permeates all things, from as far as you can go inside an atom out to the farthest reaches of the universe. God does not have a body, and therefore has no sex organs and no image. We refer to God as He or Him for the purpose of convenience only. I'm sure He is secure enough in His position that He doesn't feel the need to bully anyone into worshipping Him.

I believe that the ones who are demanding worship had a lot to do with our being here. I think we are either clones or hybrids of them (most likely hybrids). However, I don't think of them as demons any more than I would consider us demons if we went to another planet and did the same things.

Excuse me dude, but the Holy Spirit wrote the Bible, not men. You didn't know that???????????? Where have you been, in a cave or something?????

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God loves you and so do I!

Well said

Right. And I bet the Holy Spirit wrote Mein Kampf too. Or isn't it just downright obvious?

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I am; therefore I think.

Boris,

You are so full of shit. I'm glad I can't smell you through the PC.

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God loves you and so do I!

That was insolent and un-nessecary

u a cheeky monkee lori

p.s this post was edited cos i missed spelt nessecary, u see, i am a shambles :)
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Im a shambles, but Im Gods shambles!!

[This message has been edited by PercyPea (edited October 12, 1999).]

Lori,

I find your attitude of Christian love most inspiring. You're bound to convince countless thousands that your chosen path is the correct one. Keep up the good work!

Searcher -
Wonderful post :) It has always stuck me as odd why she has a lie as her signature.
Anyways, in regards to a previous post, do you feel that your god deserves worship? (as opposed to requires) Also, do you think it would have any sort of problem with those who flatly deny its existance? I am simply curious.

Thanks,
FyreStar

Why is Lori not allowed to have a sense of humour? Her tone sounded pretty affectionate to me.

Although on somethings I disagree with Lori...
BUT....
I know in her heart she believes in what she is doing. Think about it... do you really
think for once she enjoys all the shit people
give her because of her theories and beliefs
in God??????? She gives a flip about people
regardless if you can see this or not!
Her signature is anything but a lie!
Just because she is a christian doesn't
automatically make her the virgin Mary.
I agree...she does have a sense of humor..
and...she is human...she gets frustrated just
like any other person.. lay off her guys..
lighten up!

Does my God deserve worship yes!

And if you doubt the story, think about it.
Jesus had twelve disciples. If anyone stole the body or something like that it was them, yet they all died proclaiming what you are saying is a lie. Every single one of them. They had no idea that they would be celebrities and written about in the future. All they knew was what they had seen. If they were lying why carry the lie to the grave?

Also these weren't brave men. Most of them were fishermen. They led simple lives until Jesus showed up. I can't believe with all of the agony they went through, not one of them wouldn't recant if they were truly lying. just a thought.

Plain_insane

p_i -
Assuming for the moment that these people were real, I would not doubt that they believed what they said. However, belief in something doesn't make it true. Either that, or they were simply covering their backsides, "just in case".

FyreStar

The disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit in the time of Jesus Christ. They saw and heard things which caused them to believe. They passed along their observations to us so that we would know. With respect to questioning their motives, we all know that it certainly wasn't for the money!

Lori,

In the words of Jesus... "As you enter a house, wish it peace. If the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it; if not, let your peace return to you. Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words - go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet. Amen, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgement than for that town."

Peace.

Ok, let's see if I've got this straight....

Boris can claim that the Holy Spirit incited the holocaust, and that's fine.

I say he's full of shit, and you guys act like I chopped off his head.


Am I missing something here???????? Why in the hell am I not allowed to be a person?????? Doesn't strike you all as a little bit weird, and may I say hypocritical? I don't get it. And Boris, may I reiterate.....you're full of shit. And by the way all of you "christians" out there. You should know more than anyone that just because I think that Boris talks out his ass a lot, does not in any way shape or form mean that I don't love him as a fellow human being that has a soul that is just as valuable as yours and mine. Why exactly do you think I come out here and argue with him almost everyday? If I didn't love him, then I would not.

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God loves you and so do I!

Lori -
Well.. sounds like the pot is calling the kettle black.
Don't be stupid. You know damn well what Boris was saying in that last post. You believe the holy spirit wrote the bible, Boris believes otherwise. Even though his belief is based on substantially more facts than yours, you say he's full of shit. Obviously, you feel that you are superior to anyone not holding your beliefs. I hope you realize that you make yourself less by doing so.

FyreStar

I must apologise for my rash out burst of insolent calling, but i feel that u could have worded your monkee post better, cos 'full of shit' suggests boris is a shambles

and obviously his map is still intact

meaning, that some of his stuff that he posts is not shit, but your right, what he wrote was pants worthy in the zangief style

see isnt that nicer :)

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Im a shambles, but Im Gods shambles!!

Percy,

I honestly can't tell if that's nicer??? When I tell Boris he's full of shit, I think that he knows me well enough to know that I've got a smile on my face when I do it. Lighten up everybody! You know I actually enjoy coming out here and getting into a healthy topic debate, but this whole "let's analyze Lori's vurnacular to death" is getting really old. I'm the only one out here who's ever told someone they're full of shit in jest? I mean, let's break this down if you guys are really into it. Fyrestar, you said "oh Lori, you get his point, don't be stupid". Ok, so why does he get to refer to the Holocost in jest, and I can't say he's full of shit in jest? Why is it that it's ok for you to call me stupid, but I can't say he's full of shit? This is getting so ridiculous, I'm really starting to get the heeby-jeebies. I think that you newbies are assuming a lot about me that's wrong. I don't sit here all tyrannical and outraged and angry. I sit here and have fun. Haven't you guys every told a friend or a family member that they're full of shit when they say something dumb or sarcastic? I have, and you know what? If you know someone well enough, they know that you are saying that figuratively, and in jest, and they get your point without balling up in some fetal position and crying about it. Do you guys live on the same planet that I do or what? I find, like on the job and stuff, that most people are even MORE sarcastic than I am. I've sat in meetings before and listened to co-workers egg each other on, and slam on each other repeatedly (all the while they are smiling and laughing about it), and it makes me uneasy. I actually had to get used to people doing that whole "slamming" thing. I just don't understand why it is you guys take me so seriously. You've totally got the wrong idea. And Boris, if you will notice, knows me well enough to know that.

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God loves you and so do I!

Although im sure ive written it a fair amount of times, u still dont seem to realise im a shambles

what i write has to be taken with a pinch of salt

and u must also understand, that saying something is like zangiefs pants, is very nice :)

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Im a shambles, but Im Gods shambles!!

Swearing and God in the same message. Interesting. No guilt feelings? Just curious...

Hello vanja monkee, was that above post addressed to me

cos shambles isnt swearing

if not, please ignore this post, cos i am a shambles

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Im a shambles, but Im Gods shambles!!

PercyPea-Hello, shambles. The message is for Lori, but thanks for caring!

Ok monkee, i thought it couldnt have been for me, but i know that some peeps dont know what shambles is

im thinking about germans here

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Im a shambles, but Im Gods shambles!!

PercyPea,
Listen, I know you have said for everyone
not to worry about you being in shambles..
but COME ON ... either spit it out or drop
it. I do not mean to appear to be rude..
cause that is not my intent... it's just
I have read that 100 times now. So if
you are in trouble..tell us.. maybe we
can help? Come on..it won't hurt ya. *S*

Vanja,
Grow up and get real... christians like
you make ones who are not sick!!! Holy..
ohhhhhhhhhhh you are so holy ! blah blah blah
talk real woman! No, I do not mean you have
to swear in order to be real...but pleaseeeeeeee nevermind!

The question was for Lori.

honestly flash, theres nothing wrong with me, nothing 'to spit out'

ummmmmmmmmm

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Im a shambles, but Im Gods shambles!!

Lori -
Firstly, I didn't call you stupid. Through reading your frequent posting, I know that not to be the case. However, each human has it within them to be stupid on occasion. I am a friend of Mierdaan, a new poster to this forum, and I tell him he's full of shit all the time. :) However, I don't tell him that when he raises valid points, which was the difference in this case. This wouldn't be much of a forum if when somebody posted something, everyone responded with "You're full of shit, ha-ha" and ignored what that person was saying. Personally, I wouldn't have any problem with you saying that, if you followed it with "here's why....."

FyreStar


[This message has been edited by FyreStar (edited October 16, 1999).]

I agree with you Oxygen in the theory of the 'big bang'. I cannot imagine ALL the matter in the universe within one planet or sun. There was an original bang but it was no bigger than any other supernova (relatively speaking). It was just the first.
I am also a fan of history. And it the history of the ancient world, especially the history of Shamanism that predated myth and theology, that convinces me that the christian religion is not just error but an error stolen from pagans and shamans.

I have guilt about lots of things, and I pray for forgiveness. But I'm confused....what does that have to do with you? And, isn't that pretty typical for any Christian? That's what Flash is going off about. I'm a real person. I'm not afraid of that, and though I realize I have a propensity to sin, I do try very very hard not to, and when I know I've done something wrong, I pray for forgiveness. I pray for forgiveness even if I don't realize I've done something wrong, just because I know that I don't know everything, and that life is a learning experience, and that I don't know nearly as much as there is to know through God. But I sure am trying. I think our problem is this....cuss words don't freak me out like they do some people. When you hear an f-bomb (and others) seems like you all immediately assume I'm an evil person. I, on the other hand know that I sure have done a lot worse than that!!! Everything's relative in a way. I'm just trying to communicate, but not to offend. Realize that people cuss all of the time, and it doesn't mean they're BAD people. Just mean's their rednecks is all. LOL!

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God loves you and so do I!

Lori,

I think our problem is this....cuss words don't freak me out like they do some people. When you hear an f-bomb (and others) seems like you all immediately assume I'm an evil person. I, on the other hand know that I sure have done a lot worse than that!!! Everything's relative in a way. I'm just trying to communicate, but not to offend. Realize that people cuss all of the time, and it doesn't mean they're BAD people.

So now sin is relative? That's not what you were telling me in another thread.

Cuss words don't "freak me out", but I do wish you wouldn't use them on a public board where young children might read them. It's not that I believe that kids these days haven't been exposed to all of the words you use - but that isn't the point. The liberal use of cuss words has helped to bring our society down to the level it's at now, and I think you'd agree things are not what they should be in our society at this time. For this reason I find your use of vulgarity offensive, and it is completely unnecessary when making your point.

Lori-Of course I realize people swear. But is it necessary? When you cuss on your post...sometimes I would love to respond to some of your very interesting thoughts, but don't know how to approach what, in my mind, is such a contradiction. I am merely trying to communicate. I did put "just curious" because I meant to disarm. By the way, I don't believe that any human being is evil.

Here's something that really turned me off to the "christian" religions. You all are familiar with those little "comic" books with little stories in them that are supposed to expound on a virtue - one will be about confessing to Jesus, one about not lying, etc? I read one that absolutely fired me up.
It was the story of a buddist, he was a very good man, he was wealthy and gave to the poor. He adopted orphaned children and just overall did his best to be a good man his whole life. So he dies, and goes to hell. Why? Because he worshipped the wrong god. He knew Jesus existed, but instead of accepting him into his heart, yadda, yadda, yadda, he worshipped Buddha. I'm interested to hear what the Christians out there think of that! Is God so full of himself that he'll condemn a man for doing the right things just because he worshipped one of the competitors? Seems to me a guy so high-and-mighty (literally!!) could afford to be a little more generous! Yes, I know, this is just one little pamphlet, but this attitude seems to be prevalent amongst the Christians - a sort of "my way or the highway" frame of mind.

SkyeBlue,

He knew Jesus existed, but instead of accepting him into his heart, yadda, yadda, yadda, he worshipped Buddha.

This is the whole point in case. This is the whole reason for our existence. We are given the generous gift of free will, by a generous God. How we choose to use it is up to us. There is only one way to God... Only one way for our souls to share eternally with God in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. God sent Jesus Christ, in the flesh, to show us the way. When you "know" the way and you consciously choose to ignore it or choose another path, you suffer the consequences... eternally.

Truestory -

But my point is - how could this guy have known for sure which was right and which was wrong? He did his best, according to what he "knew" and still was punished for it. Jesus didn't come to this man personally, this guy made the best choices with the information at hand, and really behaved the way God probably would have wanted him to. He had the right motive, he did almost everything right, why couldn't God be just a *little* forgiving, and maybe give the poor guy a second chance? I guess my question is - how vengeful does an all-powerful being have to be? Seems like there's a lot of room for forgiveness there. Why doesn't God send another messiah, at least? If there is a God, why is He letting all these otherwise good people slip through His ethereal fingers? If there is a God, doesn't he realize this is the Age of Information? Couldn't He at least assign a few angels to miracle duty down here in the mortal plain? Or at least a webpage! (Okay, just kidding, but you know what I mean!)

And what about people that live out in the "non-civilized" world - indiginous (sp?) tribes in the rainforest and such that have never even heard the words "Jesus" or "God" and worship some other diety? Are they condemned to Hell just because the missionaries didn't make it to that neck o' the woods in time?

This is the kind of stuff that bugs me about christianity too. While christians desperately attempt to validate their faith by interpreting the bible in thier favor, they overlook something as simple as universal love by God. If so many other things in the bible can be interpreted as false or misunderstood, why is this concept so hard to accept. It's simply nonsensical to think that a universal God does not equally love everyone(and everything) regardless of wether they believe in him.

SkyeBlue,

Those who have not heard the words of "Jesus" are not condemned to Hell just because the missionnaries didn't make it to that neck o' the woods in time. However, neither will they ever know God. That is why it is so important to spread the word throughout the world, so that as many souls as possible have the opportunity to share eternally with God in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.

Now, if the fellow in your example received the word of God, and "knew" that accepting Jesus Christ was the only way to salvation and he used his free will in a way that denied Jesus Christ, then regardless of his other works, he did not do the one thing that was needed for salvation. He did not accept Jesus Christ as his savior.

I am sorry that you see God as being unforgiving. How unforgiving is a God that sends their only Son, in the flesh, to show us the way, to suffer and die an excruciatingly painful death for all of us so that our sins may be forgiven? This, to me, is the ultimate forgiver!

I am also sorry that you see God as being vengeful. Jesus Christ was sent to be among us so that the word of God would be perfected, so that we would "know" the path to God. The life and teachings of Jesus Christ was filled with miracles and was well-documented for our benefit. How many of us would willingly sacrifice the life of our only child so that the souls of humanity could be saved? I'm sorry you feel the way you do. I do not see God as "vengeful". I see God as the ultimate giver! (and I am finding it hard to believe that all of this was not good enough or "enough" for you?)

Why should God send another messiah, SkyeBlue? Because there is only one savior and that is Jesus Christ, who will come again to raise the living and the dead. We don't know the exact time of the second coming but, if we want to be saved, we must use the great gift of free will in the manner it was intended for salvation and accept Jesus Christ as our saviour before then. It is not too late! All things can be forgiven. Behold the Son (Jesus Christ). Through Him, all good things will come.



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 26, 1999).]

Okay, so if these people that have never heard of Jesus don't go to Hell, they certainally can't go to Heaven, where do they go? Are they just completely outside the framework and their spirit or soul just dissipates? Are they reincarnated? Are they left to wander the earth as ghosts?

As far as God being the ultimate giver - he gave his son up for humanity's good. Okay, let's accept that for the moment. Poor Jesus! God's awfully generous with other people's pain and suffering, isn't he? How would you feel if your parents gave you up to be tortured and killed just so that the rest of your family might live a little better? (not talking about sacrificing yourself to save their lives, just saving their peace of mind) Why couldn't God find another, less painful way of accomplishing this? If he's all-powerful and all that good stuff, doesn't he control the whole enchilada? Why would a human body's death have anything to do with the sin of people not even born yet? This has never made any sense to me, it seems excessively cruel. An awful waste of a life.

The reason I think he should send another messiah - have you taken a look at the world lately? If there is a God, he's letting his pets get out of control. I own a couple of cats, and I take responsibility for them, I make sure they're fed and taken care of. As a "loving creator" God is falling asleep on the job. I just have adopted my cats, I sure would feel a lot more responsibility towards them if I had CREATED them! Has God no empathy? Is He so petty that if people don't buy into His religion and worship Him, He turns His back and pouts? Are His resources so thin that he can't spare some time to at least confirm his existence to his creations? He did create us, after all, He built into us this monkey curiosity that makes us pry into the questions of the universe - He must know that his existence is doubted, even by most of the people that desperately want to believe. I don't know if you believe in your heart of hearts, truestory, but I know a lot of devout Christians that have faith wearing thin.

It doesn't help any that the bible has been translated and altered along the way so many times, it's message is totally garbled. Too many try to take it at face value, which is just silly. As a metaphor, there are some good lessons in there. Of course, most religions have the same type of messages, be it Wicca, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.

My last point (at least for now!) - Okay, let's say there is a God, He created all of mankind. That includes me. When He created me, why did he create such doubt? He made me, bones, body and soul - he must have implated this doubt in me as it sure didn't come from my (devoutly Catholic) mother! Instead, he showed me all the negativity that can come from organized religion, exposed me to death and sorrow, and then expects me to just feel his love and take it on faith that he exists?? Somehow, I'm not convinced. This feels too much like my parents telling me there really IS a Santa, even though I saw them putting the presents under the tree, know what I mean? Sure, it would be nice to believe that there's this loving father, waiting in the curtains to whisk you into his warm arms and save you from the harsh, cruel world. But through his lack of intervention the world is harsher and crueler than it must be. If you half-drown a kitten and then rescue it should that kitten then love you for the rest of it's life?

Wow, SkyeBlue! You sound extremely angry with God.

The message I am hearing from you is... If you were God, you would have done things differently. Well, you are not God and it is very apparent that you do not understand God's plan. God has already done the thing that you ask, however, you are not accepting it. It doesn't seem good enough for you. The existence of God was confirmed through the conception, birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Let me ask you this, if I may... Have you even tried to do things the way that God has taught you? Have you ever seriously prayed for Jesus Christ to enter your life? Have you opened your heart completely to the love of Jesus Christ? Have you been filled with the Holy Spirit? Have you accepted Jesus Christ as you savior?

If you did, in addition to being saved through Jesus Christ after death, in addition to walking with God eternally in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, your spiritual vision would become clearer and the anger and negativity that you are now experiencing would go away... you would feel much better while you are here.

Try it, seriously. You will find peace, joy, happiness and salvation. Rest assured, you will like it.

Truestory
You certainly bypassed the issue. You've come up with a response that I can say
I've read a few hundred times worded almost to the tee.
I'll give you credit for not getting into the name calling thing some of the people do.( Jesus hater, etc. )
I've tried myself to believe the Bible, but when you find the flaws you just have to say 'What the hells going on here ?'.
The fact is Science nor Religion has the answear. If there is a God, he apparently doesn't wish to be known now, and there ain't no amount of Science or Religious Dogma that's going to prove he is or isn't.

truestory,

I guess I can see how you got this impression, but I am not angry at God. How can one be angry at something/someone they don't believe exists? I am not really angry at anything - annoyed is more like it. I also don't need a God to give me peace, joy, and happiness. I am quite happy, and have found profound peace, just not through blind faith in a diety that is (in my opinion) indifferent to his responsibilities. My peace comes from within myself, as does my joy and happiness. I believe that these things cannot come from an external source, they must be found internally. External joy is superficial and temporary. (Compare the thrill of a new car to the thrill of accomplishing a goal - which lasts longer?)

My beef is with Christianity. Not the God, because I don't believe it/he/she/whatever exists. I resent being told that if I don't follow a set of restrictions I'll go to this awful place. And then, when I look at these rules and restrictions, their backup material (I mean the bible here) is so contradictory... I resent the fact that schools are being told not to teach evolution. I resent the fact that the word "GOD" is on my money. Basically, I have the misfortune of living in a society that has merged government with religion (what ever happened to seperation of church and state, anyway?). I know, I know, USA isn't the worst offender, but I can't pretend to like it! Not that I'm saying Christianity is bad, I just want it to stay out of my schools, off my money, and away from the politicians. As a concept, Christianity is just fine, just as most other religions are.

I like to think I respect everyone's beliefs. That's why you won't hear me call you stupid for believing in God, or even tell you that you are wrong. I think you have the right to believe in Holy Horny Toads, if that's what makes sense to you. But that's not going to stop me from questioning you about the Holy Horny Toad, especially if "In Holy Horny Toad We Trust" is inscribed on my currency! I question everything I am told to "have faith" in. Hence my questions here. If it doesn't make sense, I must question it. If I don't understand, I must ask. I don't think I'll ever get an answer that will fully satisfy me - I keep getting told to take it on faith, or to accept Jesus into my heart (which is the same thing, as far as I can tell).

So please don't preach to me. If you don't have the answer to a question, say so! You aren't a priest (are you?), so I don't really expect you to have all the answers. Just don't tell me to accept Jesus into my heart, etc, etc, because it will never work. BUT! if you can give me answers that make sense, I just might begin to believe.

See, my mind isn't as closed as you thought! My basic 'religious' belief is that I DON'T KNOW the answers. I don't know what happens after I die. I don't even know what I *want* to have happen after I die. There's only one way to find out for sure, and as yet I'm sure not willing to take that step!

Anyway, truestory, do you wish to answer my last post? I AM curious to see what you have to say. I just don't promise to believe it. :-)

Gee SkyeBlue,

So sorry. I did not perceive that you were actually looking for an answer. I took your post to be basically rhetorical in nature... What, specifically would you like to know?

PS... There is something that I would like to know. How can you "know" that accepting Jesus into your heart will "never work?"

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 27, 1999).]

truestory,

You misunderstand. I don't "know" that "accepting Jesus" won't work. You preaching to me is what won't work!

As to what I want to know - I refer you back to my second-to-last post. I don't really want to retype it. Refering to the fate of those that die without ever hearing about Jesus, etc.

Zapper,

There is a reason that the words in my post sound very familiar to you. It is because it is the message which God sent to us through Jesus Christ... The message which is to be spread throughout the world so that the souls of mankind can be saved.

You are exercising the free will which God gave you when you decide to accept it or ignore it.

SkyeBlue,

Those you refer to go into a state of natural happiness but separated from God. That state is commonly referred to as Limbo.

So, then, those 'souls' are lost to God forever? There you go, another reason for a new messiah!

Okay, I got a new question for you! (And anyone else! This thread is starting to get taken over by myself & truestory)

The whole Hell concept confuses me too. (Stop rolling your eyes, truestory!) Is Hell supposed to be the final stop, end of the line, or is it supposed to be a sort of prison system - you do your time, take your punishment and then you are considered to have made up for your wrongdoing?

More fuel for the argument - here's a concept I haven't run accross yet in these message boards - what do you all think about this? What if, when you die, your fate is determined by your mind-set? So if you believe in Heaven or Hell, you go there. If you believe in Nirvana, that's what you attain. If you are an atheist, you just dissapate and there's nothing afterward. There are so many different types of people anyway - heaven to me would be quite different than heaven to someone else. Maybe there is one God, and He/She/It appears to each culture in a different visage, to better relate to his poor stupid creations that are too simple to comprehend his/her/it's complex, all-present, all-knowing, omnipotent, existance?

Okay, so I guess that was more than just one more question. Sorry :-)

SkyeBlue-
I'm inclined to think that the mindset idea is the most probable. I've thought about that concept myself. Heaven and Hell would seem to be more like an impression left behind from the mind of the person. How many happy, cheery ghosts have people encountered?

MY TWO CENTS--JMitch

Actually, SkyeBlue, it is the reason why "the" Messiah (Jesus Christ) came and gave the word of God to man to be spread throughout the world... So that none of us would be lost, so that all of us would have the opportunity to be saved. As I'm sure you know, no matter what God does or does not do, there will be many who will still turn their backs on God and go another way. Although we might all have the opportunity to be saved, many of us will choose not to for various reasons.

What I continue to hear from you is that you want God to do the things that have already been done. I am also hearing that you think you know me (based on the asides). I can tell you that your perception of me (rolling eyes, etc...) is way off base. (Not that it matters, just thought you'd like to "know"). I am genuinely interested in your questions which contribute to your disbelief.

Yes, Hell is a final stop. However, it is an eternal state, not a temporary one. There is no time off for good behavior once you are there.

The different mindset concept is an interesting one. As far as atheism is concerned though, I have heard that it has been proven on the battlefield that there is no such thing as a true atheist. When faced with death, it is reported by those who have been there that even atheists cry out for God to help them. I know we can't believe everything we hear, but I have heard this from a number of different sources. I also know a woman who was the staunchest atheist I have ever met. She suffered with cancer for many years. She ended up living five years beyond the six months that the doctors had expected her to live. Now, I have experience with a number of people who suffered and died with cancer. However, everyone who knew this woman (especially the doctors) could not believe that she was still able to live, given her severely decrepit condition. She was like a stick walking around with a huge, oozing cancerous tumor popping out of her abdomen which had split open from the pressure of the tumor long before she expired. She was only sixty pounds and such bad vital signs had never seen in a human being who was still able to walk and talk. After she finally died, we found out from her family that the reason why she hung on so long was that she was afraid to die - afraid of the finality - due to her strong atheistic beliefs, she had no concept of any destiny beyond her physical death and this had scared her into living and into seriously seeking alternatives to her beliefs. Ultimately, she found God and was comforted in her death.

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 27, 1999).]

Err, excuse me for butting in, but what about all of the poor bastards going to hell BEFORE the coming of the messiah?

[This message has been edited by JMitch (edited October 27, 1999).]

Truestory,

Actually, SkyeBlue, it is the reason why "the" Messiah (Jesus Christ) came and gave the word of God to man to be spread throughout the world... So that none of us would be lost, so that all of us would have the opportunity to be saved.

Another question I have is, saved for what purpose? What happens next? Do we get any clues about that? Will we have any choices about what we get to do for all of eternity? Why do I keep thinking of the story of Pinocchio and the boys who wanted to play hooky? They were promised a life free from what they thought they hated most of all - school. They got that, all right - but found out there was something they hated more than school after all. Do you remember the story?

Searcher,

Another question I have is, saved for what purpose? What happens next? Do we get any clues about that? Will we have any choices about what we get to do for all of eternity? Why do I keep thinking of the story of Pinocchio and the boys who wanted to play hooky? They were promised a life free from what they thought they hated most of all - school. They got that, all right - but found out there was something they hated more than school after all. Do you remember the story?

Salvation begins in the present life and continues into everlasting life. Yes, we do have some clues about what happens next. God came in the flesh through Jesus Christ to inform us that God wants us to be saved so that we can share with God for all eternity in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. It is the ultimate gift from God which consists of living in complete communion with God... some of the gifts of the Holy Spirit which we can look forward to are infinite regeneration, wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, charity, joy and peace... the greatest gift of the Holy Spirit is love.

Those of us who have heard the word already know that we have a choice about what we get to do for all eternity by virtue of God's gift of free will. We can either choose to spend eternity with God or without God (with Satan).

You probably know better than I why you keep thinking of the story of Pinocchio??? I don't remember much of it. (I was never a big fan of fiction). What I do remember about that fairy tale was that each time Pinocchio lied, his nose grew. Even though I was young, I knew this was not a true story and I got kinda turned-off. It just did not interest me, I guess.

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited October 27, 1999).]

truestory -
As far as atheists/agnostics recanting their beliefs when faced with death.. try to keep in mind that not all of us are weak-minded, weak-principled hypocrites. If you would like an example, I give you Carl Sagan. If you want details, read the end of his book "Billions and Billions". I believe that 1+1=2. If I am about to die, you won't hear me say 1+1=3. Why? Because it is wrong, and even if it will give me false hope, I'll still know that it is wrong.

SkyeBlue -
Interesting question. Personally, I tend to think that all of our conciousnesses will dissipate, despite what we believe. We are simply biological life, after all. I am interested though, in what would become of agnostics, in such a situation? An eternal final jeopardy? :)

FyreStar

FyreStar -

Good question, about the agnostics. I suppose they could end up as ghosts, always wandering looking for the answers? Just a thought. I have to agree with you, though, I too tend to believe that our conciousness (which is really just a series of electrical impulses) will just dissipate upon death. I wish I could believe in something else, perhaps that's why I pester and push at people like truestory - I'm looking for a 'truth' that can fit into my crazy little ol' mind.

truestory - hey sweets, don't be mad at me! I'm not trying to say I know you with my little asides. I'm just trying to add a little levity to what's turning into quite a debate! Of course I don't know you, just as you don't know me. I totally respect your point of view - as I said before, I believe each person has a right to their own set of beliefs - I might be a pest, but I'm a respecful pest! :-)

Okay, my rebuttal: About your comment regarding Pinnochio - you knew the story wasn't true because his nose grew each time he lied. But you do believe in people parting seas and restoring sight to the blind in an instant? What about Moses - wasn't he supposed to be hundreds and hundreds of years old? To me, the story of Pinnochio and the story (stories) of the Bible seem to be about equal (from a true or not true standpoint) - metaphorical stories designed to get a moral point accross. I have to say I don't believe in miracles - at least not the religious definition of miracles. I do believe life is a miracle, but I also believe shooting a basket behind your head with your eyes closed is some kind of miracle, too. I guess that means my definition of miracle is something that happens against all odds. But, I don't think they're generated, they just happen, or they don't.

Okay, truestory, I also have to say that you're hearing me wrong. I'm not saying that I want God to do anything. Yes, theoretically, if I were to become a God I WOULD do things differently. But since I don't believe that I ever will become a god, just as I don't believe there is a god at all, I can't say that I want him to do anything. Don't forget - I don't believe in God! I'm poking at YOU - I want to know what you think - I want to know your version of the WHY behind God's actions. You seem to have very solid, definite beliefs and views on the subject, and I'm just trying to push you into thinking past what you already "know" - I want to make you think, and try to see things from my view. My questions aren't designed to harrass you, really! I suppose it looks that way. And, of course, you keep trying to get me to see things from your point of view - which is fair!

I guess I'm just not the type to take anything on faith. If you tell me something is hot, I'm going to look for heat waves. If I don't see the heat waves, I'll try to touch it. If I am blocked from touching it, I'm going to quiz you endlessly on how you KNOW that thing is hot. It doesn't mean I'm angry at the heat, or I want the heat to manifest itself in another way, I would just wonder how YOU knew it was hot, without the data *I* would need to verify that fact. See what I mean?


JMitch - good question! truestory - do you have any thoughts about what happened to people that died prior to Jesus and his message?

Hey, does this mean that SkyeBlue and Searcher are one in the same?

You seem to have very solid, definite beliefs and views on the subject, and I'm just trying to push you into thinking past what you already "know" - I want to make you think, and try to see things from my view. My questions aren't designed to harrass you, really! I suppose it looks that way. And, of course, you keep trying to get me to see things from your point of view - which is fair!

SkyeBlue/Searcher,

I have no problem thinking or seeing things from your point of view... It is a fact that I saw things from your view for many, many years... I had many of the same questions you currently have... The cumulative effect of a number of life-altering experiences (many of which I have posted in previous threads over the months) caused me to open my heart completely and ask Jesus Christ to come into my life. I have since found answers which enable me to see things from the perspective of Jesus Christ with the help of the Holy Spirit.

JMitch,

Throughout the history of mankind, God has expressed the desire to share eternity with the souls of mankind. There have been a number of covenants between God and man throughout the years. The most recent (and the last) is the covenant of salvation through Jesus Christ. Prior to Jesus Christ, those who knew of God's previous covenants and followed the way to God at the time, will be saved. My understanding though, is that the number of souls saved prior to Jesus Christ will be few and far between. God came to us in the flesh of Jesus Christ because mankind was so depraved and wicked that the majority were unworthy of eternal salvation. God's eternal kingdom has no end and God wants to share this with as many worthy souls as possible. God went through great lengths to prepare mankind for the coming of Jesus Christ, so that we would recognize the savior, so that we would hear God's words perfected in the flesh, so that we would understand God's plan for the resurrection of the faithful and the life of the world to come and so that we would know the specific way to eternal salvation. As far as I am concerned, we are much more fortunate than those poor people who went before the coming of Jesus Christ. Thank you God!

truestory,

Nope, I am not Searcher. Though thru reading his (her?) comments, I think we are perhaps both 'searchers'.

Why do you think God waited for so many thousands of years before sending Jesus? I never really thought about that one before.

SkyeBlue,

Hmmm... SkyeBlue was posting many questions throughout this thread... Searcher jumps in and says, "Another question I have..." and posts the Pinocchio episode (I look back and don't see any other questions from Searcher in this thread)... I respond to Searcher's post about Pinocchio and SkyeBlue rebutts my response about Pinocchio... I thought you were likely one in the same... Yes, I agree that you are probably both "searchers."

Heh,heh, you're right truestory, Searcher and I have been stealing eachother's discussions. But, we are seperate people. However, I must say the Pinocchio analogy is an interesting one! I never really liked that story though, too preachy. You know how much I like to be preached to! ;-)

So, truestory - you say you used to think just like me. What made you choose Christianity as your faith? If you don't mind me asking... Did you do a lot of research and choose the one that seemed to fit, or did something specific happen that just kind of revealed this 'truth' to you. (Sorry, but I still just HAVE to put quotes around truth in this context. Nothing personal!) I did see your post somewhere else in these forums about the missing kid and the voice out of nowhere, and I think there was another one from you with a car accident your kid was almost in. I think that's really a trip, but what made you choose Christianity in particular? Were those two incidences what made you think there was a God in the first place?

Truestory,

I can see why you might have been confused about whether or not SkyeBlue and I were one and the same, but I assure you that we are indeed two different people. The reason you hadn't seen any other posts from me is because I normally only post in the evening after work (unless I'm home sick from work), or on the weekends, or once in a great while very early in the morning before I leave for work. Not only that, but things are a bit hectic around here right now, so I don't have as much time for posting (not to mention that since I downloaded AOL 5.0, I keep getting knocked offline just when I'm about ready to post a nice long message, like what just happened a couple of minutes ago - grrrr!!!).

Like SkyeBlue, I am interested in finding out what makes people believe the way they do. I'm particularly interested in you because of some of your experiences which you've been kind enough to share with us. If I'm not mistaken, you were abducted by aliens when you were a child. I wonder then, why you don't see Jesus as being an alien? I've seen enough evidence in the Bible that he was/is an alien (meaning, he came from another world, as he clearly stated in John 8:23). In fact, I believe that anyone who claimed to be God, or a son of God, and yet manifested as a man, was actually an alien (at least those who were seen flying about the heavens in their chariots of fire, and such). Why do you believe differently - or do you?

truestory - you were abducted by an alien? Wow! You have had an eventful life! I have to say I will believe in aliens before I will believe in an eternal, all-present diety. Can you direct me to your alien story - if it's still up on these boards? I'd be interested in reading that.

I must say I'm <u>really</u> beginning to doubt truestory's monicker. Poltergeists, precognition, remote viewing, and an NDE are already on the list. Now, we seem to be adding abduction, too. What a distinguished psychic career! (Say, truestory, have you ever considered checking in with a psychiatrist?)

------------------
I am; therefore I think.

Boris - what's an NDE?

Nevermind. Just figured it out. My bad.

SkyeBlue,

She made mention of it in this thread (see below for address), but I'm sure I saw a more detailed story of her abduction when she was a 6 year old child. Sorry I couldn't find it - Truestory, would you care to tell us about it again?
http://www.exosci.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000088-2.html

Well, well... Welcome back Boris... I seem to remember that you had read and commented on my abduction post a couple of months ago, when I first started posting... I believe you even mentioned it previously in one of your posts in which you ridiculed the fact that I have had a number of personal experiences which you do not understand... I could be wrong but, this really is not news to you, is it?

SkyeBlue,

Here is my post from September 14, 1999:

Given my experience, this site interests me. It might even be a site where others might find my exprerience interesting!
September, 1959 (approximately 5:00 PM):

I was taken by "little men," out of my bed in the Bronx, through an open fifth-story window which was next to the top bunk in which I was napping. When I arrived in the "craft," I saw a boy from my neighborhood who looked very scared. The inside of the room which I was in was cylindrical in shape and the walls were made of what appeared to be dull, metal-colored, cushiony cells (allowing for the flexibility needed to form the rounded walls). Yes, I found myself on an examining table. I remember being terrified and screaming and crying. Some of the "little men" (standing in front of the table) in the examining room, who were not as little as the ones who took me from my bed, were standing back because I was thrashing about, trying to get free. A couple of the larger "little men" were holding me down from behind. One also had a hold of my right arm and leg. I calmed down once I knew that they were going to return me to my home. (Yes, they were able to communicate with me without moving their mouth areas). When they brought me back to my bedroom, they were talking with me, instructing me about what not to say (little did they know that I had already learned that lying to my mother would be a sin). They made my bed which, at age five, I was too young to do adequately (especially the top bunk). My mother entered my bedroom all of a sudden, asking me who I was talking with. You should have seen the look on her face when she saw the perfecly made bed! "Who are you talking to? and WHO made your bed?!" When I told her it was the "little men" she asked "What little men?" I turned to point to them and, of course, they were gone. My mom felt my head and said, "Well it's cool, but you must have had a fever!" At that age, I did not understand why she could not accept what I was saying but I could see that Mom was somewhat scared and concerned. Mom was also curious, though, and continued to ask me questions about the experience throughout the next couple of days. I gave her details, including the name of the neighborhood boy who I saw in the ship's examining room (He had a very unusual last name, pronounced "hoozar" so my Mom thought I made it up). I remember Mom telling her friend, who came to visit the next day, that I must have had a fever and that I must have been hallucinating. When Mom was telling the family about my "fever" and "hallucinnation" at dinner the following evening, she was joking around: "Hoozar?! - What's a hoozar?!" Noone was laughing, though. My brother, who was six, informed my Mom that "Hoozar" was a boy in his class. We never spoke about the abduction again.

------------------
Have a great day!

truestory,

Sorry, it's hard to keep tabs on all of your plentiful exploits. Now that you mention it, I do recall that particular "true story" as well. I still think you should see a psychiatrist.

Hah, Boris...

I can understand where you are coming from. "You're crazy" is the usual knee-jerk reaction from others to such experiences. That's the same reaction my husband "used to" have. Now that we are in our 28th year of marriage and he has seen the cause and effect of my "experiences" although he can't comprehend for sure how they happen, he tells others that he no longer thinks I'm crazy.

Take for example one New Year's Eve celebration more than twenty years ago. A couple that was at our table had a loud disagreement which caused an uncomfortable "scene" for others. The husband finally walked out of the ballroom and others basically said, 'O.K... He's gone, it's over, let's have a good time!'

Instead, I "heard," yes Boris, "heard" a voice which said, "He's getting a knife." I told my husband, "He's not leaving... he's just going to get a knife!" My husband, of course, said, "WHAT???!!! You're CRAZY!!!"

The man returned around 15 minutes later and sat down at the table, opposite his wife, next to me and my husband. I pleaded with my husband not to take his eyes off of the man. My husband obliged, but, after about 10 minutes of the man behaving rationally, my husband's attention was diverted to a discussion on the edge of the dance-floor. My husband left to go join in the conversation with his friends.

With no other males at the table, the cowardly man pulled a knife out from under his sleeve, lifted it over his head, yelling "AAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!" and started to lunge across the table at his wife with the knife. Only because I had earlier "heard the voice" was I able to be quick enough to grab his hand and elbow him in the ribs so that he fell backwards over his chair, letting the knife slip out of his hands.

My husband, who had turned when he heard the man yelling, and saw what transpired after that said, "HOW DID YOU KNOW???!!! I'm so sorry!!!"

Wow, truestory, you have lived an incredibly interesting life!

Did you ever talk to that other little boy that was there with you?

Did this experience have any effect on your faith - make it stronger, or weaker? What a night! I would have been terrified.

SkyeBlue,

If you are talking about the experience that I had when I was five... No, I never spoke with the boy about it and I never thought about it in terms of faith... although I didn't think about it too much growing up, I just thought it was one of those experiences that aren't talked about much... Now, I really don't see it as being "different"... I don't dwell on it. I just see it as another life experience, albeit with other-than-human beings...

Searcher,

Like SkyeBlue, I am interested in finding out what makes people believe the way they do. I'm particularly interested in you because of some of your experiences which you've been kind enough to share with us. If I'm not mistaken, you were abducted by aliens when you were a child. I wonder then, why you don't see Jesus as being an alien? I've seen enough evidence in the Bible that he was/is an alien (meaning, he came from another world, as he clearly stated in John 8:23). In fact, I believe that anyone who claimed to be God, or a son of God, and yet manifested as a man, was actually an alien (at least those who were seen flying about the heavens in their chariots of fire, and such). Why do you believe differently - or do you?

In this day and age, I believe that the term "alien" is relative to one's definition, based on their experiences.

If you are asking me if I believe that Jesus was a member of the foreign species (aliens)which abducted me then, my answer is no. If you are asking me if I believe that Jesus is "alien" in the sense that he originated from God who dwells physically in another (foreign) realm, then my answer is possibly, yes.

In other words, my answer is relative and depends on whether you and I are on the same plane, so to speak... :)

Truestory,

I don't mean alien as in a foreign species, exactly. I believe his father is of the same species that first put mankind here on this earth, and we came from them in some way (as clones or hybrids). Jesus was always referring to his "father in heaven", whose craft was often seen surrounded by some sort of cloud.

I just want to know the true nature of those we worshipped as gods in the old days. Which ones did we come from and why did they put us here? What is their interest in us now? Do they want to protect us or destroy us? And I don't want canned answers that really don't explain anything to my satisfaction, which is all I get from the churches.

Searcher,

I don't believe that God is what we contemporarily consider a "space" alien in need of a craft... and I am not familiar with such references made by Jesus.

Could you point me in that direction? :)

Searcher -

To clarify - you are thinking that Mary was artificially inseminated with some kind of clone/hybrid that was Jesus? Interesting idea, don't think I've heard that one yet. That would explain the virgin birth thing quite handily, though.

But what interest would aliens have in creating/furthering this religion? What would they have to gain? Unless they share the same God and wanted to spread the word? In other words, maybe they aren't a God in themselves, but they believe in God and wanted to share? Hmmm, lots of food for thought there.

Yes, definitely a mouthful of food for thought. Or, then there's the aetheist/alien one too.

A quick thought: Heaven and Hell? Judgement? Lost souls of those who do not believe? How clever. Well, it's not all that clever but a nice try. Too bad it's not working.

Truestory,

I assume that you meant you hadn't seen any references Jesus made to the "cloud" his father in heaven travelled in, as he made too many references to his "father in heaven" for a bible scholar such as yourself to miss.

I'm sure you remember the "cloud" that guided the Hebrew slaves out of Egypt? Exodus 13:21,22 tells us:

21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.


Exodus 14:19,20 continues the story:

19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.


Following the parting of the Red Sea, Exodus 14:24,25 tells us:

24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians.

25 And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.


It goes on from there to describe how the Lord drowned the pursuing Egyptians.


Exodus 33:9-11 mentions the cloud again:

9 And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses.

10 And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.

11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.


I'm sure you've read about the transfiguration account in Matthew 17:1-17? That's the same one that mentions Jesus hanging out with Moses and Elias on a mountain. Verse 5 is especially interesting to me:

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.


Paul gives us some interesting news in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4:

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

SkyeBlue,

I'm sorry if I confused you, but my idea is that we are clones or hybrids of this species that we resemble, and Mary was artificially inseminated by the highest in command.

I first began to consider this possiblity many years ago, when I read the account of Jesus's birth in chapter 2 of the book of Matthew. Verse 2 tells us about how the wise men had seen the star in the east and came looking for the Christ child. After they left King Herod to go find the child, the star that had been in the east went before them and led them to the child, where it hovered above (see verse 9).

I'm not at all certain what the whole purpose of this experiment is, but it seems clear enough that if we want to live eternally, we had better not ask too many questions. Only those who believe like a small child are supposed to make it to "heaven" - or so we're told. The $64,000 question is, what happens next?

Searcher,

Did I hear the bubbling of a bong? :)
It's human nature to ask questions! That's how we learn, and the only reason why you have come to this conclusion. At first glance theorys come to us with out any questions, but after examination you will find an underling question you have had for a long time but have put aside for lack of an ready answer. If there were no questions left to be answered life would be prety boring. If asking questions is a sin that will eject my from heaven then screw them!

------------------
The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
-Max Born


[This message has been edited by 666 (edited November 02, 1999).]

Searcher,

Jesus was always referring to his "father in heaven", whose craft was often seen surrounded by some sort of cloud

What I meant was that I had not seen any references to a "craft"... Per your examples, and others...

"Cloud" - yes.

"Craft" - no.

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited November 03, 1999).]

Truestory,

Sorry I don't have enough time for direct bible quotes in the morning before I leave for work, but I trust you have a bible and can look up the following for yourself:

2 Kings 2:1-12 (chariot of fire, whirlwind)

Ezekiel 1:1-28 (UFO moving as fast as lightning, with wings and retractable landing gear)

I'll be back...

This is fascinating, Searcher! I never thought about it, but you are making a compelling argument.

Truestory - here's a way to tell me & Searcher apart - I'm not nearly so familliar with the bible! I ought to pick up a copy somewhere & try to read it again.

Searcher,

Things seem to be getting a bit twisted here. :)

Your original statement was:

Jesus was always referring to his "father in heaven", whose craft was often seen surrounded by some sort of cloud

Again, I see no such references made to such a "craft" by "Jesus"... (That is not to say that there are none). Can you show some support to your claim that "Jesus" was "always" indicating that his "father in heaven" owned a "craft"...???

If I'm not mistaken, the verses you refer to above (Kings, Ezekiel) were from the Old Testament and reflect the ancient prophetic writers' literary styles. I would caution you not to interpret such styles "literally".



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited November 03, 1999).]

Truestory,

I think you misread my post just a little. For the purpose of clarification, the sentence you are quoting could rewritten as two separate sentences, as follows:

1) Jesus was always referring to his "father in heaven".

2) The craft in which his father flew about the heavens was often seen surrounded by some sort of cloud.

I never said that Jesus called whatever his father rode in a "craft", my point was that he referred to God as his father in heaven ("heaven" is just another word for sky). Neither did I say that the people who saw the "cloud" called it a craft. I am simply drawing my own conclusions based on the clues that are there. And if God doesn't need a vehicle, why does he need a cloud?

As for the literary styles of the prophets, I would certainly expect them to use whatever words they had at their disposal to describe objects and events that are beyond the scope of their knowledge and experience. Allow me to quote 2 Kings 2:11,12:

11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

Today we would just say that Elijah was abducted by a UFO - although it lacks the literary style of the Old Testament prophets, the meaning is the same.

SkyeBlue,

For me, the Bible is an endlessly fascinating book. It is filled with mystery, and is like a puzzle just waiting to be solved. I think it would be much better to be able to understand the original languages the Bible was written in, but I do my best with what I have. The book of Ezekiel is especially intriguing. There is too much from Ezekiel to try to include here, but I would like to quote a couple of verses from chapter 1:

4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.


The description that follows contains quite a bit of confusing detail, but it mentions wheels and wings, and states that when the creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up too.

I would definitely suggest picking up a bible and reading it for yourself. It will give you much to think about!

I have read parts of the bible, but it is so confusing to me! I get lost just trying to figure out which version is which... I have been planning for some time to pick up the Bible & the Koran and see what they have to offer. Guess I should get off my duff! I have been thinking of taking a religious study course over at the local JC, just to get my feet wet. Religion is fascinating to me - I can't say that I believe it, but it has affected so many people that I definitely want to know what they are following. I think religion is heavily linked to psychology - my feeling is that a lot of religious 'facts' are projections of what our ancestors wished and thought. Studying their beliefs (and contemporary man's beliefs) is a great way to get into someone else's head. And a history lesson to boot!

I love this forum - it's proving to be quite educational for me.

By the way - truestory - how do you get those smiley faces into the body of your post? I can't figure it out.

Good Morning SkyeBlue :)

Just make a smiley face with your keyboard (colon and end-parenthesis). Once you post, it will automatically convert to :) !!!

true' -

Thanks! I've been making these smileys :-), I guess the 'nose' screws it up. :)

We are not hybrids,we are cloned workers,
given flaws(like my spelling). :) http://www.webcom.com/way/the-way.html


hint:ufo's hide in the clouds