Ok, this isn't new but I'm sure it must be for some. Just a simple test of logic.

'You find yourself standing in a hall, there are two doorways leading out of the hall. One doorway leads to heaven and the other leads to Hell. By each door stands an identical looking guard, one only tells the truth and the other only tells lies.
You, presumably would like to enter heaven but the doors aren't marked. To make it even harder to find the right door, you are only allowed to ask one question from only one of the guards...
What is the question you must ask, to ensure you go through the right door?

Tab,

Would it be too much to assume that the guard who tells the truth is guarding the door to Heaven and the liar guards the door to Hell? If this is the case, I would say that you only need to ask, "Does one of these doors lead to Heaven?", or alternatively, "Does one of these doors lead to Hell?" Since you already know the truth (given in the stated premise, "One doorway leads to heaven and the other leads to Hell"), you will know which guard tells the truth and which one lies. However, this is complicated by the fact that you never told us which guard is guarding which door. Did you intentionally omit this information?

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Searcher -
You don't need to know which door each guard stands by to solve this problem; simply give the doors arbitrary labels and ask the guards with respect to those labels. For example "Is heaven behind door number 1?"

In solving this problem, you have two unknowns: which guard is which, and which door is which. So, your single question must deal with both, somehow. You cannot make the doors lead to the same place, so try to form a question to which they both must give the same answer, thereby sidestepping that half of the problem.

FyreStar

Here's the answer, scroll past if you don't want to see it!

*****

You must ask one of them "would the other guard tell me that door #1 leads to heaven?". If they say yes, then you know that door #2 leads to heaven, and vice versa.

*****

"Where would the other guard tell me that your door leads to?"

The "good" guard (guarding the door to heaven) would answer "hell" because he/she knows that the other guard always lies (and would say hell instead of heaven) and this good guard always tells the truth. Enter this guard's door to heaven. :)

The "bad" guard (guarding the door to hell) would answer "heaven" because this guard knows that the other guard always tell the truth and would answer "hell" (the truth) and this bad guard always lies. Don't enter this guard's door... It leads to hell! :(

P.S.

If you knew ahead of time that they were guarding opposite doors then their respective answers would be opposite from above.



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited November 13, 1999).]

Skyeblue,

I believe you found the correct answer! It's the only one that makes any sense without having to know which guard is guarding which door. Great job!

SkyeBlue/Searcher,

That's pretty good... except now you have to know which door is designated as #1 and which is designated as #2. :)

Truestory,

As Fyrestar had already pointed out, "simply give the doors arbitrary labels and ask the guards with respect to those labels".

By the way, do you still believe that Skyeblue and I are the same person? I'm just wondering why you addressed that post to both of us when she's the one who offered the final solution to the problem?

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Hello Searcher,

Yes, I'd agree with you if communicating the labels to the guards was within the guides of the communication "allowed" in the original conditions... As far as I understood it, the communication could consist of only one question. If other communication was allowed, I'd have a thing or two to say first. :) Tab'???

The reason I addressed both of you was because Skye gave the answer and you indicated that it was the only one that made any sense, a statement which I had reason to debate... Not because I believe you are the same person.

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited November 13, 1999).]

Good job . Boy am I glad I didn't submit my guess.
Daaaaaaaaaa.

Of course, if you watch too many testosterone-packed movies, you could always kick both doors in and pick that way. :)

[This message has been edited by Oxygen (edited November 13, 1999).]

You cannot give the doors arbitary numbers because that would entail striking up a conversation with the guards, telling them which door is which. But you're only allowed to speak to one guard anyway and if he turns out to be the liar you'd be lost before you'd even begun.The guards are not necessarily standing by their respective doors.
You're getting warm!

Alright, then simply point to one of the doors when asking the question...

"Would the other guard tell me this <<point to door #1>> door leads to heaven?"

Ta-daaa!

Good try Skye... Sounds good, but it wouldn't work under all conditions outlined...

truestory -
You are making this much more complicated than it really needs to be with all of the restrictions.

Which door would the other guard direct me to if I asked him which door led to hell?

FyreStar

FyreStar...

I am not putting any restrictions on the given situation... tab' set the stage and posed the question (not me). :)

FYRESTAR FYRESTAR FYRESTAR FYRESTAR FYRESTAR!!!
YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!
You got it...well done!
When you pose this question (whether you ask about the heaven door or the hell door), either guard will point to the same door and so, you will choose the other one.

You guys......

You could ask EITHER of them, doesn't matter which,

"Is Jesus Christ the Son of God?"

That is the ONLY question that will get you to the truth. The one who lies will say no, and the one who tells the truth will say yes.

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God loves you and so do I!

Lori -
Sure. Have fun picking a door in that case.

FyreStar

P.S. Sorry for the double post. :)



[This message has been edited by FyreStar (edited November 15, 1999).]

Lori -
Sure. Have fun picking a door in that case.

FyreStar

What do you mean, sure? That is the ONLY way to discern spirits. Says it right in the good ol' Bible. Ask the spirit, "is Jesus God come in the flesh?" If it is an angel of the Lord, He will say yes. If it is a fallen angel, he'll start spewing some new age mumbo jumbo about christ consciousness and how aliens created us and wrote the Bible, but they did such a lousy job of it that we all just misunderstood. Seriously, this is happening to many people right now, and some do not know the Word well enough to discern, and they are buying in hook, line, and sinker. So you can scoff all you want, but if some "being of light" floats into your bedroom some night, and tries to compare Jesus to Jim Jones, you'll know what to do.

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God loves you and so do I!

Lori,
you still wouldn't know which is the door to heaven because the guards could be guarding the 'wrong ones' and you're only allowed one question.
Unless ofcourse you relied on the power of prayer, in which case the door to heaven would automatically open for you. But now we're relying on faith to avoid thinking, as the problem has already been solved simply by applying logic.God helps those who help themselves!

Lori -
Like tab said, it doesn't solve your problem. And it would also require your particular theories on religion to be correct. (and please don't go off on a rant about how you are somehow inherently superior in picking from the menu of the supernatural, its been covered in other threads :)

FyreStar

Lori,

Tab already confirmed for us that the guards are not necessarily standing by their respective doors in his message posted 11/14 at 10:19 am, so only knowing which guard is a liar and which guard tells the truth is insufficient information for our purposes. There's really no argument here - you're just going off on a tangent, as usual.

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

You people are real assholes. I just wanted to point that out. I mean do you all really have to be so fucking snotty about everything? Who the hell said I was inherently superior, and I suppose this is just another tangent huh? Well I'd say then that we could reduce every single post on this board down to a tangent, now couldn't we? You guys can take the assumptions you keep insisting on making regarding me and stick them up your collective ass. And no, before you ask, this message did not come from the Holy Spirit.

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God loves you and so do I!

Lori -
The point is, you posted a response that was necessarily irrelevant to the question posed. Your answer would not help you select which door was which. You merely used this as another excuse to assert that your religious views are correct.

You are entitled to your views. However, I am also entitled to my views. Since we are fundamentally the same type of being, your declaration of truth in the unprovable is saying that you are superior to the rest of us in selecting a faith. When we disagree, you simply say we are "confused by satan", or "not really trying". How convenient.

FyreStar

I am superior in no way. The faith is the truth, regardless of what you and others may be aware of or unaware of. And besides, I'm not out here bragging and trying to put others down. I didn't write the Bible, did I???? Do you know something I don't? This is a religious debate right? So let's just keep the stupid personal digs to yourself is all I'm saying. YOU are the one who perceives me as being superior apparently, not I, so don't make those stupid assumptions, and then judge me against them. I mean face it. Who are you guys kidding? You know as well as I do that a lot of people only have to hear the word Jesus, and it's like fingernails on a chaulkboard. Do you think that's not obvious? Why don't some of you try to keep your prejudice bias to yourselves, as a debate is always enhanced by open-mindedness. :)


Oh, and excuuuuuuuuuuse me, but I used this as an excuse???? A fucking excuse????? How about the thought that I was honestly offerring up the best solution I could think of at the time? Did that ever enter into your Christian-bashing little brain by chance? You know, just like EVERYONE else did who responded to the question? Get a grip. Christian phobia. What a concept.
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God loves you and so do I!

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited November 16, 1999).]

Lori -
Thank you for vehemently validating my point. Let me paraphrase the first too lines of your response:

"I'm not superior, I'm just right, and you are wrong."

Need help with that shovel?

Funny you should call me prejudiced.. foolish me who looks for such infantile and irreverent concepts are evidence, and proof.

What else... Oh yeah, I (most emphatically) *DO NOT* know that a lot of people have to hear "the word of jesus", so kindly don't say that, else you will be a liar, and I believe that is a "sin" according to your self-aggrandizing belief system.

You most obviously needed an excuse, else you would have had to post your repetitious blather in a brand new topic.

Christian-bashing? Excuse me, I wasn't talking about christians, Lori, I was refering directly to YOU and no other. Before you spout off on another rant declaring me an enemy of christianity, I'll have you know that the other person in my room right now, is a devout christian, and one of my best and most respected friends.

BTW, you didn't actually respond to what I said, you simply swore at me, called me names, and reiterated your arrogance. Care to try again?

FyreStar

Fyrestar,

Apparently Lori has a rather tenuous grasp on her sanity, not to mention a hair trigger on her temper. But that aside, I think what she was so ineffectively trying to sputter out was that the word of Jesus is like fingernails on a chalkboard to some people (although I'm certain she also believes that some people on this board need to hear the word of Jesus - fingernails on chalkboard or not).

Lori - get a grip. Everyone else who answered was at least making an attempt at staying within the bounds of the problem - not introducing irrelevancies like you did. So you didn't get the right answer - neither did I. Get over it already.

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

That's my whole point. I didn't get the right answer just like you didn't, but I didn't hear anyone reducing you down to some insane, ranting, spoon fed religious freak who's just using this riddle to shove my faith down someone's throat, now did I? That's what I'm talking about, and you can deny it to the hilt, but it's true, and frankly I'm sick and tired of being ridiculed. All someone had to do was point out the conditions that I missed, and redirect. Nothing had to be said about my so-called twisted selfish blow-hard Christian agenda or my sanity. You started this, so if you don't like my reaction, then maybe you should think about being a little nicer?????? I'm sure that never occurred to you eh? No, that's not what you want. What you want to do is ridicule me in a very rude way for believing what I do and offerring up my opinions, and then when I get angry about being ridiculed, you are first to point your finger and go, "that's not very Christian-like". Well, fuck you. How's that for Christian-like?

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God loves you and so do I!

Lori -
The difference in answers is simply that you did not try to answer what tab was asking. You took the opportunity to spout off about your beliefs, which was rather uncalled for. Reread the other posts. Not one of them goes away from the question itself. Then comes yours. If you still don't see the problem, reread the question itself, which you obviously skimmed through the first time.

Congratulations, you know how to swear. Now that you've risen to the level of a third grader, try actually responding to posts. If you want people to be nicer, try being nice yourself.

Quote from you in your last post:
"All someone had to do was point out the conditions that I missed, and redirect."
Look at my first post to you in this thread. I simply pointed out that you had failed to answer the question properly, to which you went off on one of your trademarked propaganda rants. So much for your theory, eh?

FyreStar

P.S. I still haven't seen a revised answer from you.

I'm quite the sweety until someone starts accusing me of ranting, and being, how do you say, ah yes "inherently superior in picking from the menu of the supernatural". That was uncalled for and you know it. Then of course, let's not forget that I had to have my sanity questioned. That's always good to hear. So are you still going to pretend like you don't see my point?

PS-I really shouldn't have responded. My answer is true but irrelevant to the purpose of the riddle.

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God loves you and so do I!

Lori -
Like I said before, when you claim to know the unknowable, you are simply stating your belief that you are superior than I in that regard. I said this before. The main reason was that despite what I said in my response, I knew that you would whip out "jesus is good speech #47" and lecture about something that really isn't even remotely relevant. It happened anyway. Oh well. As for your sanity, I'm not qualified to make a judgement. However, I notice that you didn't comment on the remark about your temper. Hmm.

You are right, you shouldn't have posted in this forum to begin with, which is what started this little fray.

FyreStar

P.S. You STILL haven't responded to most of the legitimate points I brought up. And you still haven't revised your answer.

Lori- The thing is, you are ranting. You are just trying to show off your moral and spiritual superiority, even when you are apologizing. You belittle those with different beliefs, all the while preaching tolerance and love.

Lori -

If I might jump into this mess...

The best way to defend your beliefs would be to argue them calmly - not freak out the way you tend to. Sorry, sweets, not trying to come down on you. :) Your tone just is so...I dunno, I just end up picturing you hollering with a red face and your hair all messed up. These guys keep picking on you because you really do make yourself an easy target - you tend to focus on the personal stuff too much and stray away from the main focus of the post. Just let that crap drop and focus on the real question! Taking it personally just validates the comments, know what I mean? Just give them a "whatever" and state your views!

(darn! I hate typo's - just had to fix it)

[This message has been edited by SkyeBlue (edited November 17, 1999).]

Lori,

I rest my case.

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

You guys TOTALLY have the wrong impression of me. I think that some of it may be my fault regarding the way I express myself. BTW, it's not red-faced and hollaring and messed up hair. It's a smile, and over-zealousness I guess. Some of it is your fault too, as you choose to interpret my intentions incorrectly regarding my so-called superiority. Nothing could be further from the truth, but you will never admit that because it's one of the rather lame excuses you guys use to deny the faith. I know that many so-called Christians are into placing themselves above others for a host of reasons, but that's the reason that I left the organized church and haven't been back. I'm not that person. I'm no better or worse or smarter or gifted or whatever than anyone else out here, and that's a fact. If you guys stop focusing on this bogus assumption, maybe you couldn't use it to reject the faith, which has absolutely nothing to do with some Christians holier than thou attitude. Actually, if you're familiar with the faith, it's pretty clear that we are all the same, and God loves us all the same. Listen, if I was some "Jesus loves you, and I'll pray for you, you poor misguided person" would you like me better, or hate me worse. I vote for the latter. I'm just not that way. This isn't about me or my mouth or my personality. Why do you keep trying to make it about that? I'm just simply trying to get a message across the best way I know how. You can believe it or not, but regardless, it needs to be said.

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God loves you and so do I!

Lori,

A smile on your face seems incongruous with the hateful tone of your posts. Perhaps it is a sign of the madness that lurks within? Or maybe the expression on your face would be better described as a smirk?

In any case, we would probably take you a bit more seriously if you didn't come across as an ill-tempered child who's throwing a tantrum because the rest of us don't want to play the game she wants to play. Reading your posts, it is very difficult to picture a 32-year old woman at the keyboard - more like an immature 13-year old, tops.

If it's respect you want, perhaps you should show more respect in your interactions with others. Communicate as the adult you claim to be, Lori, and you might be surprised at the results.

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Lori,
If you learnt to temper your faith with logic and rationale, you wouldn't have to write abusively defensive letters or excuses. You would simply say your piece and people would accept it, because they would understand it within the context of the subject matter.
And when people point out to you that you have gone beyond the bounds of the subject or question with an irrelevant answer or statement, then that should be your cue to review the subject and think a little bit about your answer.
I think that sometimes you forget that you are not only speaking to Christians, but to a whole host of different faiths and beliefs.And if you are trying to evangelise them by throwing in smug, simplistic and irrelevant Christian type rhetoric you are failing miserably. In fact you are probably doing more harm than good to the Christians mission. Please review your tactics and understand that humility is wisdom.

PS, you do not seem to demonstrate many of the virtues of love in your mails;
are you sure you understand the meaning of love?

-MY DOG LOVES ME AND SO DO I-


[This message has been edited by tablariddim (edited November 19, 1999).]

Tab,

You may have a valid point here - maybe Lori's true mission is to discredit Christianity by claiming to be a Christian while displaying decidedly un-Christlike behavior on these message boards for all the world to see. Good point! I'm sure that the true Christians (if there are any left here) must cringe every time they see a post from her.


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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Ok, this is great. Do you guys hear yourselves at all? Do you actually hear the incessant slamming that you throw at me? How am I SUPPOSED to react to that? Like I said before, I'm not out here slamming anyone unless someone slams me first. You may think that's childish, but re-read your last posts before you throw any more stones. I never belittle people, and if I do I'm being sarcastic. This isn't about belittling anyone. It's impossible, because contrary to what you all want so desparately to think, I don't hold myself or my opinions in any higher regard than I do yours. I'm not the one out here calling people insane, and bugging about grammar, and slamming put-downs all over the place. If you will re-read, you will see that is YOU that is doing that to me. See? You call me crazy and conceited, I respond by saying f you. See how that works? BTW, what planet are you all from? Do you think that everyone who cusses is crazy? That's interesting. Is this what you would call ranting? Well, I call it talking, and you can picture me red-faced if you want to, but that sure as hell doesn't mean that I am. Think what you like. I'm not buying into what you are trying to label me as to satisfy you own egos, sorry. I swear, I go back and re-read my posts, and I don't see what you guys see. Oh, and Corp. you are soooooooo one to talk. Your all being rather hypocritical don't you think? Oh, that's right, you've turned this into a pissing contest, so you'll never admit to that, right? Making fun of my sig? I haven't done that to anyone. Wouldn't even think of it.

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God loves you and so do I!

Lori,

I thought Tab's parody of your signature was hilarious!

By the way, your signature is just one of the many incongruities I see in your posts, which leaves you open to ridicule. You may want to change it or leave it off altogether if it bothers you so much to have that pointed out to you.

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Ok, here's a riddle for you. How in the world would you guys be able to recognize a "true Christian"? Face it, you not only have absolutely no idea what that means (don't feel bad as many so-called Christians do not know either), but you think the faith is fiction, sooooooooo??????? I'm a real person, deal with it. I thought that's why you guys vehemently criticize Christians anyway, you know, for being so holier than thou? So make up you minds. You're talking out both sides of your mouth. I don't like so-called Christians that try to pretend that they're not human. I'm human get it? So if you call me crazy, and pick my ass apart like you definately without a doubt have done, then yes, I will certainly take offense. This isn't brain surgery you know????? You are criticizing me for being "above it all" and "holier than thou" or "superior" or whatever, and then turning around and criticizing me for being defensive and cussing. Make up your minds. That's the whole point I was trying to defend here. I'm not superior, I'm not special, never said I was, and never implied it, and so yes, it pisses me off when others assume that I think I am. Let's see if you get it this time.

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God loves you and so do I!

Lori,

I think I have an answer to your riddle. I believe the way to tell a true Christian is by observing their "walk" - that is, do they "walk in the Spirit"? Allow me to quote from Galations 5:13-26:

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornications, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against these there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Is that the answer, Lori? Do I win the prize?

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Lori,

I never belittle people, and if I do I'm being sarcastic.

Um, in case you weren't aware of it, using sarcasm is a method of belittling others. Please allow me to quote the definition of sarcasm from my Oxford American Dictionary:

1. an ironical remark or taunt. 2. the use of such taunts.

Lori, would you also like me to quote the definition of the word "taunt"?

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

I think that what I'd like for you to do is irrelevant here. How in the world would you know what walking in the spirit is? Face it, you have no idea whatsoever what it's like to walk in the spirit because you haven't. When you have, then maybe you could qualify to judge my behavior, or psychically "know" what expression I have on my face at any given moment, but oh that's right, not even Christians have the right to judge. Did you forget that? No, you didn't, you just like to throw Biblical verses around, that you don't even believe mean anything anyway, to suit your purpose at any given time. Did you ever notice how I never do that? Probably not, because you're too busy IMAGINING things about me.

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God loves you and so do I!

Lori,

You originally answered:

You guys......
You could ask EITHER of them, doesn't matter which,

"Is Jesus Christ the Son of God?"

That is the ONLY question that will get you to the truth. The one who lies will say no, and the one who tells the truth will say yes.

Guess what? That was the EXACT answer I was giving until I read that there was a POSSIBILITY that they might be guarding opposite doors. Without knowing about that possibility, you are absolutely right... that was the BEST answer and you had every right to post it, regardless of those who believe that, for some reason, it was "uncalled for."

As for the other stuff going on here, well, you know how I feel about it, so... bygones!

Tell me about it. I miss a little detail, and instead of just pointing out that I missed a detail, they have to hop on the Christian-bashing band wagon, and use my mistake as an excuse to ridicule me to death. It doesn't make sense. I was wondering too, how it is that someone can freak-out, and display a temper in writing? How can I have a tone in writing? Does freaking out relate to the use of certain punctuation or what? May I not use exclamation points or...????? And I'm sorry, but I still don't get the swearing thing at all. I mean, I watch TV, movies, real life, at work, all around me, and I swear it seems like you guys don't live on the same planet that I do. Everyone I know cusses, but you know, in casual conversation, or to be expressive to emphasize a point, but it doesn't mean they're freaking out. I just don't get it at all???? Just suffice it to say again that I'm not the person that you all are imagining in your little heads that I am, and I'm not mad or angry, and I'm not freaking out. You could very well imagine just about any tone you wanted to apply to my posts, just keep in mind that just because you imagine it, doesn't make it true. I have a friend who's known me since I was 12 years old. Do you know what her nickname is for me? Smooth Water. Because I'm such a placid person. She knows me better than anyone probably; we're like sisters. Hmmmm.....

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God loves you and so do I!

Lori,

you just like to throw Biblical verses around, that you don't even believe mean anything anyway, to suit your purpose at any given time. Did you ever notice how I never do that?

What is your purpose in pointing out that you never do that? Is it to demonstrate your moral superiority? Well then, I humbly bow before your superiority, and hopefully that will be the conclusion of this thread.


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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Searcher,

In reference to "having the last word"... You might want to keep in mind that God will ultimately have that... :)

Yea Searcher. Great idea. Start the whole damn thing over again by accusing me of implied superiority. Why do you insist upon having these delusional thoughts about me? May I reiterate that I am not superior. You may think that I am all you want, but again, that doesn't make it so. My point was that I'm a Christian, and I don't even come out here and spew memorized verses all over the place. You do, but you don't even believe they mean anything apparently. I just don't understand why you would quote something that you don't even believe in or even attempt to understand. If I'm not mistaken, you probably hate it when people are judgemental of you, and shake their finger, and start preaching the Word to you, like "you sinner, you". So why are you doing it to me? I don't do that to you or anyone else. Quit judging me is the point. Leave that up to organized religion. They are so good at it, ya know, that they've turned a gazillion people away from Jesus. Get it?

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God loves you and so do I!

Lori,

Apparently the Word is like fingernails on a chalkboard to you, and for that I must apologize. I'll try not to quote Scripture to you again, now that I realize how it antagonizes you.

Truestory - if God would like the last word here, He's welcome to join in the fray. I'm on my way to a concert, so this is the last I will post in this thread, at least for tonight. :)

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Regarding true Christians ... Show me a true Christian. Now, will that person know what they are in terms of this question?

And here's the problem: "Is the car black or grey?"

"It's whatever color the Lord made it."

Ask any either/or, and then throw in "Jesus" as the answer. It reminds me of a junior high school joke:

* How many surrealist painters does it take to screw in a lightbulb? (Answer: Fish)

Tiassa

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"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)

Lori may not be superior, but i am

now go and sing with the sailors my monkees!
http://www.par.org.uk

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Im a shambles, but Im Gods shambles!!

PercyPea,

A monkey? Did you find my monkey? I must spank him for being so naughty. He didn't spit at you did he?

Lori,

you may think that I am all you want

Until we see pictures in the buff we will not know for sure. You will be in my dreams. ;) j/k

Hey, did you guys know that they even have rules for flame wars? Just thought I'd share them with you:

http://www.alsirat.com/flame.html

Lori - I'm really going to try to stop this now (which is very hard for me - I'm a born fighter :) ), as it is going absolutely nowhere. If you really want to continue it elsewhere, you can start a different thread and invite me to join you there. I'm sure I won't be able to resist - but I promise that I will not continue the flame war in this thread, so the last word here is yours for the taking. Flame away!

Welcome back, Percy Pea! Where've you been? I checked out your site, but the music didn't come through. I thought maybe I had gone deaf since last night's concert (which was great, by the way!), but I cranked up the speakers - and nothing! Anyway, it's good to see you back! :)

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

shambles music

try going to macromedia.com and downloading the flash4 player again, sometimes it mucks up and stops playin sound, thats what i reckon has happened

booooooooooooo

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Im a shambles, but Im Gods shambles!!

Searcher,

Ok then, my last word is this...the Word of God is definately not like fingernails on a chaulkboard to me. And I seem to be a born fighter as well, so there, looks like we have something in common.

666,

Seems that my sense of humor is ALMOST as vulgar as yours. So maybe we have this in common. And be careful spankin' that monkey. I heard that you can get carpal tunnel syndrom from doing that too much. Now let's work on getting some Jesus in ya? :)

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God loves you and so do I!

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited November 20, 1999).]

Lori -
I find it ironic that you are talking about egos. I also find it ironic that you use many arguements that apply to yourself, and seem not to notice.

I don't picture you as the red-faced, extremely offended person you seem to think I do. I picture you more as the stubborn, self-oriented person who enjoys showing off her religious "smarts".

Since you don't seem to realize where the superiority comment is coming from, I'll spell it out for you. You and I are both human. You have accepted certain beliefs as truth, with self-invented proof to back it up. Furthermore, you have the gall to say that I am wrong in what beliefs I have, tenous as they are. I'm not accusing you of a 'holier than thou' attitude. Go before that, to the very beginning of the belief system. I am accusing you of claiming ultimate ultimate superiority in selecting faith. Do you understand now, or will you continue to view this as slanderous personal attacks to comfort yourself and take the easy way out?

Lets pull some interesting quotes;
Lori, 11/19, 11:00AM - "I don't hold myself or my opinions in any higher regard than I do yours."

Lori, 11/16, 3:31PM - "The faith is the truth, regardless of what you and others may be aware of or unaware of."

Complete contradiction. That comes damned close to out and out lying.

Why do you continue professing innocence in this whole debate? Originally, you responded to tab with an incorrect answer. I said, and I quote, "Sure. Have fun picking a door in that case." Apparently, you took exception to "Sure." Why is that, exactly? I thought "sure" was a term of agreement? Or, at the very least, non-commital acknowledgement. Yet you take exception to it...why? Are you suggesting I planted some sort of sarcastic tone in there to imply you were wrong? Quoting you, 11/19, 2:0PM - "How can I have a tone in writing?".
Pick a side.

Also, at the top of that post, you say "I miss a little detail, and instead of just pointing out that I missed a detail, they have to hop on the Christian-bashing band wagon, and use my mistake as an excuse to ridicule me to death." I refer you again to "Sure." Now, I'm not german, but I don't see how one word can have that much meaning.

FyreStar

Lori,

I started my life off with Jesus, but he seemed to ignore me. Don't take the 666 for a user name the wrong way, I don't worship Satan. It is more symbolic than anything else.

What do you mean carpal tunnel syndrome? I was told I would go blind. I'm trying to get disability, they don't give it for carpal tunnel. Can I asume that I'm not going to get the picture then? :)

Searcher,

I come from the old days of the internet with a 300 baud modem and it was all text They had a newsgroup set aside specifically for flame wars. Maybe we need one here?

[This message has been edited by 666 (edited November 21, 1999).]

FyreStar,

I'm really not trying to show off religious smarts. I know that I could say that a million times and it wouldn't matter, but it's the truth. I sure do have a lot of room for improvement in that area as far as I can tell.

This is very important...the proof is definately not self-invented. Most definately not.

The reason that the quotes you mentioned aren't contradictory to me is because I don't perceive the faith to be my opinion.

If you will go back and re-read you will notice that I did not take exception to your response of "sure". All I did was say that I didn't understand, and asked you to explain.

666,

I felt that same way for a long time myself when I was younger. It turns out that I wasn't really getting it. I can't speak for you, but I didn't really understand what all was involved, and I don't even think I had the maturity to really understand what giving your life to Christ was about. I thought of that as more of a hinderance to me than anything probably. I was really turned off by the church that I went to too. That didn't help any. I still have a church aversion. Not a Word aversion, just a big-haired, overly charasmatic, holier than thou, tell you neighbor Jesus loves you type of aversion. It eventually took a lot of soul searching and learning and the humility definately had to come first for me. I'm not sure if it has to be that way for everyone, but that's how it was for me. Sorry dude, no pictures. :)

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God loves you and so do I!

Lori,

I absolutly enjoyed the church I whent to. It wasn't opresive or any of the usual things most people think of. It was realy comunity oriented, I even knew my preist very well. I am reluctant to bring up why I do not belive, becuase it is very personal and feel that it is some what inapproriate here. Allthough I feel it will help you understand my point of view a little better. All I ever asked for was for the abuse to stop, but never happened until I was old enough to take matters into my own hands. I hear a lot of pepole say "God only helps those who help themselves", but what is a 6 year old boy to do? At a time in my life when I needed a God to help me the most he was never there. I was left to find my own way out of a hell I never chose. Today I am proude of the fact that I have come as far I as I have and in some ways further than most, but a good day for me is a day I don't feel like I would have been better off if my father had killed me. It is the fights I fought with out help from a God who never helped that leads me to belive that there is no God. If it is one of his "mysterious ways" I have only one question. What is so terrible in heaven that I had go through so much just to prepare?

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The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
-Max Born


[This message has been edited by 666 (edited November 21, 1999).]

666,

Your feelings of abandonment are truly understandable. There is noone who could rightfully criticize your feelings - certainly not God.

After reading your post, there is not much that I can say about your father other than his abuse was one of the heavy crosses that you have had to bear in this short life. You might want to keep in mind though, that the abuse which your father inflicted upon you resulted from your father having turned his back on God.

The power of God is unimaginable, 666. It is so great that, believe it or not, if your father is still alive today and truly repents for the horrible abuse which he inflicted upon you and others and if he truly accepts Jesus Christ into his life, he would be saved.

God's plan is truly unimaginable at times... It may not have seemed like it then and it might not make sense to you yet but, there was a reason why... even though your father had turned his back on God, God helped you to carry that cross of abuse and God carried you through your torture without your being killed... God gave you the strength, in time, to do what needed to be done to stop the abuse. God did, in fact, answer your prayers.

You might look at it as God not having "saved" you from the abuse. Remember, however, that although there were many who could not understand it at the time, God did not "save" the Son either. Jesus Christ was crucified, died, was buried and rose from the dead for a reason.

Your time to rise will come, 666. Your long-suffering gives you great options. One of those options is to turn your horrible experiences into something good. You have experienced pure guilt and evil at the hands of another and therefore you now have the ability to recognize pure innocence and goodness. You were taught first-hand what not to do when you grew up. You can use this experience to share your pain with other adults who might be prone to committing child abuse. Having been there, you can educate children about what they should do/should not do if they find themselves being abused. You can use your passion to educate entire communities about the absolute need to get involved when they suspect that a child is being abused.

I am not telling you what to do, 666. I am merely pointing out some positive options. Best of all, unlike your father, you can choose to walk through this temporary world and beyond "with God" rather than "against God" and do the work of God, rather than that of the devil.

God bless you, 666!!!

666,

I'm glad I called in sick today, and wasn't sitting at my desk when I read that. You can e-mail me off-line anytime you want to, the address is on my posts. I don't know how you feel about it, but I'm totally honest about things out here because it's so anonymous you know? I mean, it's not like I have to see you guys at work tomorrow or something. I feel like what TS said is right on. Sharing pain is a good thing and often fosters a lot of understanding. I can't even say how sorry I am that you had to go through what you did. Just like TS said, and certainly you realize that as a child, you were completely innocent. All children are completely dependent upon their parents, and all adults for safety and security and love and nuturing. That is why it is so important for parents to be saved in Christ and to then realize the true responsibilities that they have to God and to their children. I assume that since you went to church then, that your dad did too? Parents aren't just responsible for the physical well being of a child, but also the spiritual. For God to have saved you then, it would have had to have been through your father. What about your mom? What about all the other people around you? Your priest? Someone should have been there to help you. I would have if I were there. This situation depicts humility that I'm always talking about. That's why I don't understand people like Boris or Plato or others that I've talked to that act like this doesn't exist. If there wasn't a God, and we were just educated animals then why would you feel the pain that you feel? Because there are moral absolutes. And it's pretty damn clear to me and to you that we, as humans, did not create them, and it gets clearer and clearer to me every single day. And the One who did create them and why gets clearer and clearer. The pain that all of us suffer shows us that there is a God that loves you more than anything, and does not want you to suffer. You won't feel this pain in heaven. You don't have to now. I'm not trying to act like something like this would be easy to recover emotionally from, but I'm pretty sure that there's only one way TO do it. You will know though, going through it, that the pain does exist, and what it is a consequence of. In this life, we are cursed of our own volition to learn lessons the hard way, or to not learn them at all, or to pay for the sins of our fathers. THIS is why I bow my head to my Father and ask for forgiveness, and profoundly appreciate and worship His grace and forgiveness. This is a difficult question to ask you, but I will. Can you forgive your father? Not to forget. Not to condone. To hate the sin, but forgive the sinner. Not even to associate with him or to make him a part of you life. I don't know what your relationship is; he should be in jail if there is any justice in this world, but it wouldn't surprise me if he isn't. But to recognize that he is human, and does not walk with God, and to forgive him in your heart, so that you can let go of the pain. It's the only way I know how. The powerful thing about it is why you would ever even want to do that. That's the question you have to answer, and there is only one real answer to that question. I want you to have all good days. I want you to love yourself like God loves you. You can turn this around and be the man that your father wasn't. You sound like you are a very strong person. Maybe stronger than you realize. Where does that come from?

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God loves you and so do I!

666,

It's tough to live in the past and move forward at the same time. I agree with Lori that it is important to forgive those who have trespassed against you, but I don't agree that there is only one way to do that.

I read a book about 20 years ago called, "Your Erroneous Zones", by Dr. Wayne Dyer. This was the best book I ever read in my entire life, as far as helping me get past the abuse I suffered in my life. It really made me see that no matter what other people do, I alone am responsible for my own happiness and that by allowing them to make me unhappy, I was granting them far more power over my life than they deserved to have.

I highly recommend this book to anyone who would like to throw off the shackles of an unhappy or abusive past, and finally take control of their own lives and move forward. Good luck to you.

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

To all that responded,

Thank you for your thoughtfull replies! I didn't realy know how to respond to the feed back. So I just sat there for a while and thought about what you wrote. I had mixed feelings about it. I normaly don't speak of my past becuase I feel it taints the view people have of me and don't like receiving attention for my past.

Turestory,

When I pass from this world I will at that moment know absolutly weather or not I am right and there is no god or if I am wrong and there is. At that time I will ask him my one question then pull up a chair and listen. At this point in my life I have chosen not to go with a religion. Instead I follow what I belive in my heart is right and just. At times I make misstakes, but hey I'm human. I am fordging a life that dose not dwel on my past, but looks to the future, what ever it might be. The first thing I had to accept was that my father chose his own path and I must chose my own. Mine just happens to be oposit direction then him. I didn't feel like you were telling what to do. Allthough I have already tryed to my hand at speaking to groups of adults at a local rehab center, but it's not for me.

Lori,

I do realize that there was nothing I could do. My father never whent to church, he was to hung over on sunday morning. My family was finacialy comfortable and lived in an equaly comfortable naiborhood. The type of naiborhood that rather not know or acknolege that that sort iof thing happened ware they lived, my mother included. It happened just long enough ago that people still feard getting involed in someone elses family affairs. My father is no longer alive he died on my high school gradguation(sp?) night of all nights.

Searcher,

I understand how hard it is to overcome the past. I have been fortunet to have had the chance to reach out and get the help I needed to keep me from following in my fathers foot steps and continue with the help to progress even further.



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The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
-Max Born

Cheers 666! I didn't respond in time, but thank you for sharing your story.

I too have yuckiness in my past I prefer not to dwell on. Seems like you have realized the same thing I did - keeping the anger, hate, frustration, dismay, sorrow, all that crap, keeping it all inside you just poisons you. You have to spit it out, no matter how hard that is to do. I felt like I was giving up my 'self' or 'soul' when I did, but afterwards I realized it was a necessary step to take to heal.

My tormentors still live - they have changed, and grown too. I am now to the point where I really have forgiven them, and I am better off for it. Perhaps some day I will be strong enough to even offer a hand of assistance to try to pull them from the muck, but for now I am staying clear.

666 - thanks again for sharing. Sometimes talking about this kind of stuff is very cathartic (sp?). You have my support, along with everyone else's here, I think. :)

I'm amazed by the response to this topic and how it's developed into something far deeper than its original intention! s'all.

Wow, this thread is amazing! Hello and Merry Meet everyone, I don't have anything to contribute to this conversation, but I think I might have found a new home! :)

666, darling, here's a hug from me!(squeeze) And another one for everyone else, too (squeeze). Blessings to all, have a happy Thankgsgiving!

I'll be watching you!

Welcome, Lady o' the Green! Glad to have you with us. Happy Thanksgiving and Blessed Be!

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Aww...I love cyber-hugs! Thanks, I needed that, and Happy Thanksgiving everybody! I'm cooking a turkey for the first time this year, so this should be interesting. This year I'm thankful that Jesus died to save all of us. It's never really been so clear to me before until recently. So thanks Jesus!

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God loves you and so do I!