The bible rewards the rapists!

Flores

06-24-03, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by Jenyar
Flores, you are being melodramatic. There are different translations (or transmissions) of the Quran as well (about seven I think), and all are recognized as having the same authority. Nowhere does the Qu'ran say the Bible was corrupted. Muhammad himself was convnced of its accuracy.

You are wrong here, there is only one Quranic version. I have travelled the world and have only saw one. Yes, there have been attempts to produce new versions, but they failed, due to the fact that the original text is in tact and could be used for comparison purposes to expose any fraud.

Originally posted by Jenyar
nazzala alayka alkitabu bel-hakkee musaddekan lima bayna yadayehewa-anzala al-tawratah wal-enjeel. (Al-Imran[3]:3)
(He sent to you the book in truth, confirming what is between his hands, and He sent the Torah and Gospel)

The gospel the Quran speak of is not the moderns bible, the Quran speaks the following of the current bible.
The Cow
[2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

Originally posted by Jenyar
The original texts of the Bible are for the most part much older than the Quran. Since it reflects a history of people who knew God, it necessarily also reflects their cultures, traditions and languages. The Bible does not have the advantage of having one originator and one original language, it is much less "godly" and much more "human". As a matter of fact, with the coming of Jesus the "Word" has indeed become flesh. The Torah started out much the same way as the Quran, and it is equally evident that their strict laws expose the evil - which is its intention. But the gospels are the only Scripture that show how God carried out his plan for salvation, whether the people who were exposed as sinful can read the original Hebrew or Aramaic or not. The truth is in the entirety, not in the details. The details expose our imperfections, the truth sets us free.

Flesh and blood and garbage again Jenyar. How unspiritual of you. The Quran teach me that human is a lasting soul and very temporary lowly clay....Why is it that Christians always try to extrapolate the truth by looking at the materials like the flesh and blood. Why can't you accept that Jesus is a slave and messanger of god. Why can't you just accept that the miraculous birth of Jesus have no justification other than that god is all powerfull and for him to create all he says is be and it is....

Originally posted by Jenyar
If you dismiss the Bible as blatantly wrong because it contains both universal and diverse information, you must judge the Quran by the same measure.

The bible is corrupt for the simple reason that the language under which it was written no longer exist and the original texts are unavailable to check the modern versions for accuracy. Asking me to accept it blantaly is merely ignorant and unfair. You are asking me to believe the crusaders and the catholic church words.....those who controlled the bible and it's editions for hundreds of years.

Jihad_AlifLamLamHah

06-24-03, 10:18 AM

RESPECT ?!?!

But first lets get to Jeremy , because he asks critical and interesting questions :

Do you Muslims read only the crumbling, original, centuries old manuscript? or modern versions of it. Even word for word transcription, it is not the same. The way a text is written, bold text, small text....it does have an effect on the meaning. Right? Right?

Lets see what our SIS has to say about this :

Yes, our original manuscript is intact and is saved in Turkey. Every arabic copy you see today is an exact to the letter and pronounciation copy of the original text. People all over the world memorize the Quran and if recited correctly, we would make awesome harmony without skipping a beat.

How true , but she seems to leave some things out of it . One of them is , that few of the 1.2B Muslims actually knows Arabic , and got stuck with some Pickthal or whatever translation , who FLORES herself obviously doesnt consider problematic since she quotes from it non-stop claiming representation of Qu'ran .

Which brings me to this original version of Islam , that can be so wonderfully memorized and recited by all the head-nodders :

An example is :
http://islam.org/mosque/arabicscript/3_9/6_1-4.gif

This is Qu'ran in its original writing , there's just one problem . Its nice to have something , but what if you cant read it ? The incapability to read Qu'ranic Arabic deals with much more than just part 2 , Arabic . Do you notice all the symbols surrounding the Arabic letters ? Well their wonderfull Idea of understanding is that it deals with pronounciation , you know it helps create this wonderfull harmony FLORES is talking about . There's just one problem , thats all they know about it . Are they aware of the semantical consequences of this special pronounciation technique ? Not one bit , so what the hell are they reading then ?
Only God knows ......
:rolleyes:

This reminds me of a Christian who told me once :
I dont need knowledge of the Bible to be saved by Jesus Christ

You just gotta love these peoples .

You should know Qu'ran has been about the first serious literary Arabic work , it is so original that its about the creation of the Arabic letter-system , so are we putting down more than half of the symbols (some actually belong to letters , so not all) used in the Qu'ran as pronounciation without a meaning ? Thats just disrespecting the book , and when you disrespect what you call the word of God you are being one damn big hypocrite .

Jeremy , do check http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23090&pagenumber=3 (entire thread actually) , it deals with these questions , questions that FLORES things she stands above , she doesnt need to know or answer , just nodding heads would do the trick right SIS ?

Respect right ? I am disrespectfull for a smiley , and then you come with this bullpoo emotional outburst of yours ? You need to go see a SHRINK SIS . Because Im not a reality denyer nor represser like yourself , Id love to comment on your cries of stupidity .

The reason I speak to you in Arabic is because you challenged me disrespectfully under your other post to show you my translation methods and to translate verses of the Quran. As if you doubt my abilities without even knowing anything. Now how can you be a judge of my knowledge while you don't know the language yourself? And why would I be the stupid idiot to subject myself to your judgements. For that reason, I felt it's a waste of time to converse with you on arabic translations issues, since it would be a one sided objective, one sided emotional and subjective debate.

First of all , EMOTIONAL would be on your side not mine , dont make me quote all things you yourself mention about your emotional incapabilities , please .....it would be humiliating . Please be aware what position you hold here on this issue . Dont deny yourself Al Haq .

Now , for your bullshit , did you translate that all by yourself ? I dont think so , you used Pickthal or whatever , so first you need to understand that it wasnt your UNEXISTING translation that was criticized , but another's . No I dont know Arabic , and perhaps that is what would help me keeping away from emotional-cultural ties peoples get stuck in , Im from a ulti-linguag family and if I see how they all translate their bullpoo into some other crap , their knowledge of Arabic is totally irellevant , and so is yours OBVIOUSLY . The translation of one verse specifically that I happen to actually KNOW and UNDERSTAND in Arabic , you totally fucked up . But you dont care to answer , because its all argue argue argue with you , while Im not looking for an argument . Im looking for the ritght understanding of Qu'ran , and You're not .

Must I repeat ? Fine then :

You are telling me to explain :

[112.1] Say: He, Allah, is One.
[112.2] Allah is He on Whom all depend.
[112.3] He begets not, nor is He begotten.
[112.4] And none is like Him.

So I tell you that :
ALLAHU AHAD,
ALLAHU SAMED,
LAMYALID & LAMYULAD
LAMYAKUN LAHU QUFUWAN AHAD

What you say is totally mistranslated first of all .

Allahu Ahad doesnt mean : He , Allah , is One .
It means : Allah is One (Ultimate Whole) . Where do you see 4 words ? I only see ALLAH + HU + AHAD . What HE ? Where HE ? HU=HE ?
Allah HE One ? At least that would be logical , so even by your OBVIOUS understanding the translation is incorrect .

The *One* of Ahad deals with the quality of One-ness , not with ONE specific object omongst OTHER .

Allahu Samed doesnt mean : Allah is He on Whom all depend.
Now all of a sudden we need IS between Allah and He ? Where's Whom ?

Anyways , only thing sayng here is Allah=Samed . And Samed = "That which has no gap, which is in perfect condition, is whole without holes and is impermeable; that which admits nothing in, nothing out". It means "solid," same as in that when we say "solid gold". In other words, mere, pure, the absolute! (Ahmad Hulussi)

Being ''SAMED'' states that Allah is not in need of anything for Allah's self .

So lets proceed : LAMYALID & LAMYULAD
Doesnt mean : He begets not, nor is He begotten. No the HE is the problem once again ....... oh they can help it I know , its just how King James works as well ...... he this he that ....
Oh well ....

Anyways : HU DID NOT BEGET , HU WAS NOT BEGOTTEN

But then the real beauty :
LAMYAKUN LAHU QUFUWAN AHAD
And none is like Him. ?

LMFAO

Im not even getting into this one , even a non-Arabic speaking person can see the totally fallascious way to translate this . I wish I knew the proper way , I dont . Ive seen possibilities :
Ahmad Hulussi proposes :

There is not an existence of another being after HU's macro or micro likeness; HU is matchless, peerless and is AHAD."

I dont agree , he makes the same over-translative error , he does point out to the following Ayaat :

"LAYSA KAMISLIHII SHAY'A" (42:11) meaning, "neither in macro nor in micro plan, there is nothing to be compared with HU."

One thing I do know , even those damn obvious Arabic words are totally misunderstood , what about the pronounciation signs ? Damn i keep forgetting how they are called . In the end you know SHIT and so do I , the difference is I am willing to admit and learn , while you go with your literal understanding of mistranslations and simple guesses ....

Why not take this literary as well :
He who is scalded by the soup blows on the yogurt.
Go blow on your yoghurt
They said to the mule, ''Who is your father?'' He said, ''The horse is my uncle.''
Go talk to a muel
If you cannot be a lighthouse, at least be a candle.
Yes go set yourself on fire

This doesnt go for just Muslims , Ive asked this many peoples before , why do you think literal understanding is
a)correct understanding
b)your Gods literal understanding

But Im getting off topic , anyways ........

And the there's the Alif Lam Mim etc etc , and all the numerology ........ can you get off your "I know Islam"-throne and admit you know shit ?

I'm sick and tired of you calling the muslims pagans and worshiping a diety, a matter that you have no knowledge of, and generalizing, and mocking me with your unhearty labeling me as your sister.

The fact that you dont except Ummah to be ONE is your problem not mine , I told you you're still SIS weither you like it or not , deal with it . But what you need to deal with also is this mix-up of things you seem to be having fun making . It is YOU who called me Pagan and Atheist PLENTY times , while Im not judging Muslims for who they are as Muslims . But i do point out that it is YOU who are the one having deity's , not me .

And yes I do have knowledge of what you worship , Im not a damn idiot .....dont think you're such a mystery SIS .

A word for word translation for what I said in arabic.

Well thats not a word-for-word translation but Ok ......

I'm not your sister and you are not my brother.

lol

I'm not fond of your political or religious veiws

And Im not fond of your psychology nor your sociologic ties that have lead to your political & religious views . PS , why bring in Politics ...because you really need to show how much you cant stand me beyond this whole damn discussion we're having ? lol , you're so funny .

You only seek to mock me, and have no knowledge of the contents of my heart and my head.

I mock those who seek to insult me , I have been very very very friendly to you , when I have said something regrettable I have appologized multiple times , dont turn things around here SIS .
What are you , history-revisionist ? Well you're doing a bad job if you are .....

Religion belongs to Allah and you have no right to judge others with what god have not given you any permission to interfere in (human judgement).

if it belongs to Allah then how come you seem to have all thise "knowledge" about it , all these "opinions" about it ? You steel it from Allah ? You thief . I dont have the right to do so , I also dont have the right NOT to do so , I also DONT need any permission to interfere in any judgement . Who do you think you are that you can have YOUR God judging me what to do ? Your God you can stick right up your ASS SIS , maybe you'll gain sudden Wahy ....... or at least some Ilham .

If god didn't bother to protect the correct version of the bible, then why do we bother defending what might be a wrong book so much.

If God didnt bother to tell people what the hell his WORD means , then why WRITE IT ?

The multiple copies and versions of the bible together with the hundreds of individual christian believes is a clear sign from god for all those that are brave enough to look.

Brave ? LOL . Get your telescope ready SIS , lets LOOK .

Flores

06-24-03, 10:30 AM

I see, so because I shared with you the fact that I studied too hard for my professional engineer exam while caring for a husband, a two year old, a full time job, and breastfeeding, and had suffered some lack of sleep that I got misdiagnosed on, you'll look down on me. I really don't give a crap how you look, because you are nobody.

I have noticed that we have nothing constructive to tell each other, so let's be smart and refrain from answering each other posts, and last I checked, I created this thread, so you are intruding on my space. By the way, I'm enjoying sciforums greatly since I just added you to my ignore list...your pages and pages of garbage have diminshed to one liners of this person is on your ignore list....Wow, life is beautiful

Ps. I know you don't know arabic, but how about calling yourself Jihad Khara, or better, Jihad Teez Elerd, those names would tell us posters more about you.

Quigly

06-24-03, 10:41 AM

Geez Flores, Is there some bitterness toward Jihad_AlifLamLamHah. Maybe I missed a beat, but he was just responding to the argument and to your posts. I am sure there is more to the story.
I see, so because I shared with you the fact that I studied too hard for my professional engineer exam while caring for a husband, a two year old, a full time job, and breastfeeding, and had suffered some lack of sleep that I got misdiagnosed on, you'll look down on me. I really don't give a crap how you look, because you are nobody. I am very sorry that you had to take a load like that on. It would become stressful on anyone.I created this thread, so you are intruding on my space. Can the creator of the thread kick people off their posts? Just curious. I am a newby still.

Flores

06-24-03, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by Quigly
Geez Flores, Is there some bitterness toward Jihad_AlifLamLamHah.

Can the creator of the thread kick people off their posts? Just curious. I am a newby still.

No Quickly, of course not, The creator of thread have no rights at all, and the thread can be removed and deleted by Cris in a second if it was not of proper value or off topic as we are doing right now. Let's just say, we are currently enjoying the moderator finite patience and respite.

To get to know Jihad Khara, you must hang around a bit longer to understand his hypocracy, his stupidity, his extreme views, his lies, ect......You can't get him from one or two posts, hang out in politics and you'll figure him out in a second...Afterall, he is an avid supporter of Usama Bin Laden political views.

Jihad_AlifLamLamHah

06-24-03, 11:19 AM

Hey Sharmuta , who the hell do you think you are ?

I created this thread, so you are intruding on my space

LMFAO , this Sharmuta thinks she owns some thread because she has gotten the PRIVILEGE to make one ?

I see, so because I shared with you

No...... and looking down has nothing to do with it .
What HAS to do it is your emotional involvement in everything , you cant let go of shit and you're trying to come off like some knowledge CUNCHA :

I'm actually scared of reading the Quran, because the Quran have so many complicated ideas with so much meaning that would send me permanently to the mental ward

You're scared of PAPER , God what an emotional wreckage you must be . I do hope you can keep all that to yourself and not bother your lovely children with it so they grow up SCARED OF PAPER just like you .

Wow, life is beautiful

Yes you keep telling yourself that .

that I got misdiagnosed on

ahum , yes sure...now allofasudden its misdiagnozed ...u didnt mention that last time , and just so you know , I dont care about diagnozes they are mostly hilarious ....... but thats besides the point , yet it does show how useless it is for you to bring this in ....... you're in constant denyal SISTER .

I just added you to my ignore list

:rolleyes: ....oh oh sorry for the lack of respect

his hypocracy

which IS ?

his stupidity

Most Excellent things that I have ever heard. I need to hand you $200 dollars, and a license to to practice phsyciatry...I"m serious.

What an idiot

LMFAO

his extreme views

Good and eveil can be divided into extreme and moderate correct ? Damn Allah must be the most evil "deity" ever as he is everything that is Good in extreme ...... where's your logic sis ? Where ? Go look for it

his lies

which are ?

hang out in politics and you'll figure him out in a second

Oh yes politics , you bring in politics , just cuz you cant stand that i can totally figure your brain out , and you cant stand that I am totally right on what I said , you bring in things that have NOTHING to do with what is being discussed here . Just to make me look bad ....and then you bring in :

Afterall, he is an avid supporter of Usama Bin Laden political views.

First of all , whats your damn point ? Secondly , you dont only point at me ...... Im not his ONLY political supporter , go back home once in a while sis , you'll find plenty peoples dont just support him politically but even admire his religious attempts (unlike me) . So be aware who you are pointing at ......

Maybe yo UMMI like UBL more than I do .

but how about calling yourself Jihad Khara, or better, Jihad Teez Elerd, those names would tell us posters more about you.

Im not that stupid to not know you are calling me Jihad Ass and Jihad Shit , its ok ....but dont say "US POSTERS" , because there is no US ther is only YOU . Moreover , I can better talk about US POSTERS who werent banned before on this forum because they cant behave . US ......... Dont try to claim unity when there isnt any

:rolleyes:

Quigly : Geez Flores, Is there some bitterness toward Jihad_AlifLamLamHah

You see the thing is , Flores has extreme emotional attachments to her religion and her God , whenever somebody is critcizing ANY of it , or at least questioning things that she doesnt like about it , she gets totally crazy . Especially when she now gets a cricizement she cant handle , like one from a MUSLIM point of view instead of Christians and Atheists .

Doesnt the way she behaves toward other religions just say it all , cricizing their scriptures while she cant even read Goddamn Hebrew nor Latin nor Greek , just because its *different* than her prescious Islam . And thats why she is totally upset when her prescious Islam turns out to be DIFFERENT from what she thought it was , some deity-worshipping space-baboon religion .

Go see a shrink sis , your situation is worrying .

Jenyar

06-24-03, 11:21 AM

You are wrong here, there is only one Quranic version. I have travelled the world and have only saw one. Yes, there have been attempts to produce new versions, but they failed, due to the fact that the original text is in tact and could be used for comparison purposes to expose any fraud.

Uthman's standardized version of the Quran (the one currently accepted by Islam) has verses missing. This fact is universally recognized. The Quran has gone through an "editing" process since the time of the original collection of documents. And if there weren't different variations, why the need for a "standardized version"?

There is no "original version" of the Quran. Muhammed dictated it, and afterwards it was written down from memory.

The gospel the Quran speak of is not the moderns bible, the Quran speaks the following of the current bible.
How is this possible, if the latest extant texts we have for the Bible date to 200AD, and the earliest Quran is after 600AD.

So my question to you is, exactly when was the Bible corrupted?

On the other hand: The Quran claims that speeches were made by Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Moses, Mary and even Jesus that contain words such as: "Muslim" and "Islam" that were in a totally unknown tongue and not invented for at least another 600 years (Suras 2:60, 126-128, 132-133, 260; 3:49-52, 67; 6:74-82; 7:59-63, 120-126 etc.).

And while the Quran claims to be perfect and complete in itself (Sura 85:21-22)...

(C)ertain variant readings existed and, indeed, persisted and increased as the Companions who had memorised the text died, and because the inchoate (basic) Arabic script, lacking vowel signs and even necessary diacriticals to distinguish between certain consonants, was inadequate. ... In the 4th Islamic century, it was decided to have recourse (to return) to "readings" (qira'at) handed down from seven authoritative "readers" (qurra'); in order, moreover, to ensure accuracy of transmission, two "transmitters" (rawi, pl. ruwah) were accorded to each. There resulted from this seven basic texts (al-qira'at as-sab', "the seven readings"), each having two transmitted versions (riwayatan) with only minor variations in phrasing, but all containing meticulous vowel-points and other necessary diacritical marks.

With the result that the version from Imam Hafs differs from the version by Imam Warsh, for example.

I'm not trying to say that these version are contradictory or corrupted, as I have not (and am not able) to read them. But that they exist means that your objection about the Bible being corrupt by the same standard under which the Quran is not, is invalid.

Jan Ardena

06-24-03, 11:45 AM

In what way is the man who commits this act rewarded?
He has to pay the father of the girl 50 shekels, and has to marry the girl, to whom he obviously had no respect, for the rest of his life, never to be divorced.
Also you must take into account what rape meant in those days. It was forbidden for a women to have relations outside of marriage, she could only be given away by Dad, her will, was in the charge of Dads, Dad was in charge of his estate and all his properties, including Mum. :)
If she (daughter) had sexual relations without her fathers permission or blessing, she was considered a prostitute, and the act of the man was considered "rape" as he did not get the permission from Dad. And this was legal, whether she agreed to the relations or not.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Flores

06-24-03, 11:57 AM

Flores

06-24-03, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by Jenyar
Uthman's standardized version of the Quran (the one currently accepted by Islam) has verses missing. This fact is universally recognized. The Quran has gone through an "editing" process since the time of the original collection of documents. And if there weren't different variations, why the need for a "standardized version"?

Good point, but Othman was alive during the time that the Quran was revealed. He saw and spoke to the Prophet. He was one of the Islamic Khalifas or followers. He was entrusted personally by the Prophet to compile the Koran. In that case, I don't see a problem with Othman issuing the standardized version not long after the death of the Prophet, for by default, the compilation of the Quran during that time was a great great task that had to go through many checks and the most accurate accounts were the only to be adopted.

Originally posted by Jenyar
There is no "original version" of the Quran. Muhammed dictated it, and afterwards it was written down from memory.

During the life of the Prophet, he had a chance to review. Something that Prophet Jesus Christ peace be upon him, didn't have a chance to do on the document that you are currently reading.

Originally posted by Jenyar
How is this possible, if the latest extant texts we have for the Bible date to 200AD, and the earliest Quran is after 600AD.

That's not the bible in it's entirety. Just some chapters of it. I'm not saying that the bible have no word in truth in it. All I say, is that it's corrupt. A holly document can be corrupt by misplacing one or two words, and still many of the stories will remain true. Don't think that when I say that they bible is corrupt that I don't believe in a bible, because I do believe in the bible or Injil, I'm just carefull while reading it, because I know that the pen of the scribes have lied sometimes to satisfy it's agenda at the time.

Originally posted by Jenyar
So my question to you is, exactly when was the Bible corrupted?

The bible was corrupted many times, everytime that a translation took place, a corruption had to enter, even with good intentions. Then there was bad intentions during the times of the Crusaders and the catholic church, when priests used to sell people salvation papers. Sections of the new testaments were added in full and corrupted to support the church views.

Originally posted by Jenyar
On the other hand: The Quran claims that speeches were made by Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Moses, Mary and even Jesus that contain words such as: "Muslim" and "Islam" that were in a totally unknown tongue and not invented for at least another 600 years (Suras 2:60, 126-128, 132-133, 260; 3:49-52, 67; 6:74-82; 7:59-63, 120-126 etc.).

Precisely, the Quran tells us that speeches were made in unknown tongues, but that within itself tells us that those books are unavailable to us, and that the Quran is the final protected word of god.

Originally posted by Jenyar
And while the Quran claims to be perfect and complete in itself (Sura 85:21-22)...

Does the bible make that claim?

Originally posted by Jenyar
(C)ertain variant readings existed and, indeed, persisted and increased as the Companions who had memorised the text died, and because the inchoate (basic) Arabic script, lacking vowel signs and even necessary diacriticals to distinguish between certain consonants, was inadequate. ... In the 4th Islamic century, it was decided to have recourse (to return) to "readings" (qira'at) handed down from seven authoritative "readers" (qurra'); in order, moreover, to ensure accuracy of transmission, two "transmitters" (rawi, pl. ruwah) were accorded to each. There resulted from this seven basic texts (al-qira'at as-sab', "the seven readings"), each having two transmitted versions (riwayatan) with only minor variations in phrasing, but all containing meticulous vowel-points and other necessary diacritical marks.

I'm impressed Jenyar, I have to admit that I learned something from you here.

Originally posted by Jenyar
I'm not trying to say that these version are contradictory or corrupted, as I have not (and am not able) to read them. But that they exist means that your objection about the Bible being corrupt by the same standard under which the Quran is not, is invalid.

I can't fully proof to you that the Quranic version is exact to the one revealed to Muhammed, although it's very very close for all human use purposes, but I detect larger problems with the bible. I detect inconsistencies and matters that make no sense whatsoever like confusing the first commmandement of worshiping the one and only god to worshiping Jesus as the lord and savior. These are major discrepencies that can not be tolerated by any person that understands and respect the oneness of god concept.

Jan Ardena

06-24-03, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by Flores
This brings out to another discussion is the Bible and Koran written for every day and age, or do the laws only apply to the specific times that the message was revealed in.

The essence of the books never changes, such is the nature of the Supreme Allah, it is very simple. :)

Love

Jan Ardena

Flores

06-24-03, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by Jihad_AlifLamLamHah
Islam turns out to be DIFFERENT from what she thought it was , some deity-worshipping space-baboon religion .

The Family of Imran
[3.19] Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.
[3.85] And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

Please direct all future insults and questions to the author of the book....Please don't bother me, I'm merely highlighting a passage in the book...I have no claims regarding this passage but the obvious.

Your insults were well taken coming from uneducated incompetent fool on the internet. A mother always knows how to handle a smelly lump like yourself, I have changed and disposed of plenty of diapers before.

Jihad_AlifLamLamHah

06-24-03, 03:37 PM

To Flores Sharmuta

Please direct all future insults and questions to the author of the book....

And which HUMANS would those exactly be ?

Please don't bother me, I'm merely highlighting a passage in the book...I have no claims regarding this passage but the obvious.

What are you highlighting ? I didnt know those HUMAN writers of Qu'ran knew modernday English ......

So before we get to the authors , we meet the translators first dont we ? So who should I whine about ? Pickthal ? Yusuf ? Who ?

Also , what exactly do you think

3.19] Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.

has to do with your space-baboon ? Tell me
Surely it DOESNT say .

"Surely the true religion with space-baboon is Islam , and those whom the Book had been given (but cant read it nor understand it nor apply it ) etc etc etc .

Your insults were well taken coming from uneducated incompetent fool on the internet . mother always knows how to handle a smelly lump like yourself, I have changed and disposed of plenty of diapers before.

Yet you need to hand me $200 dollars, and a license to practice phsyciatry ? You're such a laugh moms , lets not question my education thats the last thing you want to worry about .

Also , you are obviously superwoman for being able to read what I post after ignoring me .

At least then one potential meaning of the infamous :rolleyes: has been revealed .

Stop whining about insults , you are the highly insultive one here while I have always treated you with respect and apollogized when necesarry , while you only shit on peoples philosophical understanding of things ........ things you even have openly admitted you know nothing off , and then call me damn names and whine whine whine .

How sad ......

Jeremy

06-24-03, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by Flores
Yes, our original manuscript is intact and is saved in Turkey. Every arabic copy you see today is an exact to the letter and pronounciation copy of the original text. People all over the world memorize the Quran and if recited correctly, we would make awesome harmony without skipping a beat.

You mean no you do not.

Read what you wrote: 'arabic copy'. A copy is a copy. It is not the original.
And while you are reading what you wrote, try reading what I wrote. You now the part about, the way a text is written?

And quoting Quran with memory skills alone is now o.k. with you? You trust all those different minds out there to remember the same message? To hear someone 'say' the Quran, is not the same message as to read it for yourself. Subtleties, especially in religion can have huge affects on the message.

Even if you really did read from the original, you are reading it in a different context. Words and the meanings attached to them, constantly evolve. Centuries latter are you still cool with that? Would the author of the Quran be 'cool' with it? Or would he say he does not need a blanket, no he is not cool.

You do not know what the intended message precisely was. You are, like it or not, out of context from 'when' and 'where' the Quran was written. Just as you are taking the 'rape' words out of context.

Jan Ardena

06-24-03, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by Flores
Your insults were well taken coming from uneducated incompetent fool on the internet. A mother always knows how to handle a smelly lump like yourself, I have changed and disposed of plenty of diapers before. [/B]

Ouch!!! :D

Love

Jan Ardena.

okinrus

06-24-03, 04:33 PM

I agree Jan ardena,
And actually after I examined the other versions of the bible, I think that NIV have made a super simplistic translation that might not agree with the intent of the bible. I think the intent of this verse was to highlight the fact that the bible believe that sex is what binds a man and woman together forever. So once a girl is violated or even had sex with her consent, she must be commited to the man that afflicted the rape on her. Today, this would be horrible and not applicable, but maybe 2000 years ago, a girl who have been raped have no other better choice than to marry her rapist, because no other man would marry her.

Rape meant stoning. The story of Daniel 13 shows this.
1
1 In Babylon there lived a man named Joakim,
2
who married a very beautiful and God-fearing woman, Susanna, the daughter of Hilkiah;
3
her pious parents had trained their daughter according to the law of Moses.
4
Joakim was very rich; he had a garden near his house, and the Jews had recourse to him often because he was the most respected of them all.
5
That year, two elders of the people were appointed judges, of whom the Lord said, "Wickedness has come out of Babylon: from the elders who were to govern the people as judges."
6
These men, to whom all brought their cases, frequented the house of Joakim.
7
When the people left at noon, Susanna used to enter her husband's garden for a walk.
8
When the old men saw her enter every day for her walk, they began to lust for her.
9
They suppressed their consciences; they would not allow their eyes to look to heaven, and did not keep in mind just judgments.
10
Though both were enamored of her, they did not tell each other their trouble,
11
for they were ashamed to reveal their lustful desire to have her.
12
Day by day they watched eagerly for her.
13
One day they said to each other, "Let us be off for home, it is time for lunch." So they went out and parted;
14
but both turned back, and when they met again, they asked each other the reason. They admitted their lust, and then they agreed to look for an occasion when they could meet her alone.
15
One day, while they were waiting for the right moment, she entered the garden as usual, with two maids only. She decided to bathe, for the weather was warm.
16
Nobody else was there except the two elders, who had hidden themselves and were watching her.
17
"Bring me oil and soap," she said to the maids, "and shut the garden doors while I bathe."
18
They did as she said; they shut the garden doors and left by the side gate to fetch what she had ordered, unaware that the elders were hidden inside.
19
As soon as the maids had left, the two old men got up and hurried to her.
20
"Look," they said, "the garden doors are shut, and no one can see us; give in to our desire, and lie with us.
21
If you refuse, we will testify against you that you dismissed your maids because a young man was here with you."
22
"I am completely trapped," Susanna groaned. "If I yield, it will be my death; if I refuse, I cannot escape your power.
23
Yet it is better for me to fall into your power without guilt than to sin before the Lord."
24
Then Susanna shrieked, and the old men also shouted at her,
25
as one of them ran to open the garden doors.
26
When the people in the house heard the cries from the garden, they rushed in by the side gate to see what had happened to her.
27
At the accusations by the old men, the servants felt very much ashamed, for never had any such thing been said about Susanna.
28
When the people came to her husband Joakim the next day, the two wicked elders also came, fully determined to put Susanna to death. Before all the people they ordered:
29
"Send for Susanna, the daughter of Hilkiah, the wife of Joakim." When she was sent for,
30
she came with her parents, children and all her relatives.
31
Susanna, very delicate and beautiful,
32
was veiled; but those wicked men ordered her to uncover her face so as to sate themselves with her beauty.
33
All her relatives and the onlookers were weeping.
34
In the midst of the people the two elders rose up and laid their hands on her head.
35
Through her tears she looked up to heaven, for she trusted in the Lord wholeheartedly.
36
The elders made this accusation: "As we were walking in the garden alone, this woman entered with two girls and shut the doors of the garden, dismissing the girls.
37
A young man, who was hidden there, came and lay with her.
38
When we, in a corner of the garden, saw this crime, we ran toward them.
39
We saw them lying together, but the man we could not hold, because he was stronger than we; he opened the doors and ran off.
40
Then we seized this one and asked who the young man was,
41
but she refused to tell us. We testify to this." The assembly believed them, since they were elders and judges of the people, and they condemned her to death.
42
But Susanna cried aloud: "O eternal God, you know what is hidden and are aware of all things before they come to be:
43
you know that they have testified falsely against me. Here I am about to die, though I have done none of the things with which these wicked men have charged me."
44
The Lord heard her prayer.
45
As she was being led to execution, God stirred up the holy spirit of a young boy named Daniel,
46
and he cried aloud: "I will have no part in the death of this woman."
47
All the people turned and asked him, "What is this you are saying?"
48
He stood in their midst and continued, "Are you such fools, O Israelites! To condemn a woman of Israel without examination and without clear evidence?
49
Return to court, for they have testified falsely against her."
50
Then all the people returned in haste. To Daniel the elders said, "Come, sit with us and inform us, since God has given you the prestige of old age."
51
But he replied, "Separate these two far from one another that I may examine them."
52
After they were separated one from the other, he called one of them and said: "How you have grown evil with age! Now have your past sins come to term:
53
passing unjust sentences, condemning the innocent, and freeing the guilty, although the Lord says, "The innocent and the just you shall not put to death.'
54
Now, then, if you were a witness, tell me under what tree you saw them together."
55
2 "Under a mastic tree," he answered. "Your fine lie has cost you your head," said Daniel; "for the angel of God shall receive the sentence from him and split you in two."
56
Putting him to one side, he ordered the other one to be brought. "Offspring of Canaan, not of Judah," Daniel said to him, "beauty has seduced you, lust has subverted your conscience.
57
3 This is how you acted with the daughters of Israel, and in their fear they yielded to you; but a daughter of Judah did not tolerate your wickedness.
58
Now, then, tell me under what tree you surprised them together."
59
"Under an oak," he said. "Your fine lie has cost you also your head," said Daniel; "for the angel of God waits with a sword to cut you in two so as to make an end of you both."
60
The whole assembly cried aloud, blessing God who saves those that hope in him.
61
They rose up against the two elders, for by their own words Daniel had convicted them of perjury. According to the law of Moses, they inflicted on them the penalty they had plotted to impose on their neighbor:
62
they put them to death. Thus was innocent blood spared that day.
63
Hilkiah and his wife praised God for their daughter Susanna, as did Joakim her husband and all her relatives, because she was found innocent of any shameful deed.
64
And from that day onward Daniel was greatly esteemed by the people.

This brings out to another discussion is the Bible and Koran written for every day and age, or do the laws only apply to the specific times that the message was revealed in.

Jesus fullfilled the old testament law. We should go the extra mile. Also the old law was created to keep social order and show what God wants.

3
Some Pharisees approached him, and tested him, 4 saying, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?"
4
5 He said in reply, "Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female'
5
and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
6
So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate."
7
6 They said to him, "Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss (her)?"
8
He said to them, "Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
9
I say to you, 7 whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery."
10
[His] disciples said to him, "If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry."
11
He answered, "Not all can accept [this] word, 8 but only those to whom that is granted.
12
Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage 9 for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it."

Medicine*Woman

06-24-03, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by okinrus
Rape meant stoning.

Bullshit! This longwinded passage you copied just goes to show what lecherous old men are capable of in Biblical times AND now. Please okinrus, spare us the long, boring Bible quotes. If you must, just make reference to the chapter and verse. If any of us want to look it up, the Bible is wasted paper that any of us could get our hands on--if we wanted to or if we cared what you had to say.

okinrus

06-24-03, 08:02 PM

And "the woman shall encompass a man with devotion". Why are you assuming that in bibical times woman were looked bad upon? It was a woman whom Jesus said had faith greater than all of Isreal. Besides rape has always meant stoning.

filibuster

06-24-03, 08:21 PM

Eek, Flores!

Are you implying that the bible has a disrespectful attitude towards women? Pshaw.. Don't you realize that Mary was a VIRGIN. Yes, a pregnant virgin. You see how much the bible loves women! The mother of our savior would never disgrace herself by enjoying sex, wanting sex, or even considering sex. No, she was a good woman: a sexless woman. Why, after she delivered Jesus, any man finding her on deserted road would be proud to....

um, marry her.

It's how any man would want it.

okinrus

06-24-03, 10:55 PM

You have some sick perverted fantasies. Even if we assume that you are an atheist, you are still sick because you want to have relations with a dead woman.

http://www.catholic-center.rutgers.edu/FrAlCaprio/Apparitions.html

Jenyar

06-25-03, 05:00 AM

Originally posted by Flores
Good point, but Othman was alive during the time that the Quran was revealed. He saw and spoke to the Prophet. He was one of the Islamic Khalifas or followers. He was entrusted personally by the Prophet to compile the Koran. In that case, I don't see a problem with Othman issuing the standardized version not long after the death of the Prophet, for by default, the compilation of the Quran during that time was a great great task that had to go through many checks and the most accurate accounts were the only to be adopted.

The Quran was not compiled during the Prophet's lifetime. The seven different reading might not vary significantly, but it means that the Quran is no more immune to changes than the Bible, even after it was 'approved'. The Bible underwent similar meticulous checks and likewise only the most accurate accounts were adopted.

During the life of the Prophet, he had a chance to review. Something that Prophet Jesus Christ peace be upon him, didn't have a chance to do on the document that you are currently reading.
The difference is that Jesus used the Old Testament as it was available to the Jews of that time (called the Septuagint, or LXX which we still have today), and that the New Testament testifies about Jesus himself. The OT testifies about the messiah, and the NT testifies about Jesus as the messiah. The fact is, neither Mohammed nor Jesus wrote anything themselves, but trusted scribes and witnesses.

That's not the bible in it's entirety. Just some chapters of it. I'm not saying that the bible have no word in truth in it. All I say, is that it's corrupt. A holly document can be corrupt by misplacing one or two words, and still many of the stories will remain true. Don't think that when I say that they bible is corrupt that I don't believe in a bible, because I do believe in the bible or Injil, I'm just carefull while reading it, because I know that the pen of the scribes have lied sometimes to satisfy it's agenda at the time.
Just which books do you consider to be corrupt? The oldest complete New Testament (about Jesus) dates to 400AD, while the most important books of the OT date from 200 BC - 70 AD (the rest were preserved with great care by the whole of Judaism). You can check which books were found among the Qumran scrolls. What is left, I presume, are those you consider 'corrupted'.

The bible was corrupted many times, everytime that a translation took place, a corruption had to enter, even with good intentions. ... Sections of the new testaments were added in full and corrupted to support the church views.
This is not based on any facts. I challenge you to substantiate these claims. I have shown you that we have complete manuscripts of all the books of the New Testament (Injil) dating to before 400AD, long before Muhammed testified to their truth in 600AD.

Precisely, the Quran tells us that speeches were made in unknown tongues, but that within itself tells us that those books are unavailable to us, and that the Quran is the final protected word of god.
The language of the Quran, or "divine language" happens to be the same dialect spoken by Muhammed's tribe?

Does the bible make that claim?
It only says that the Scripture is "God-breathed".

I can't fully proof to you that the Quranic version is exact to the one revealed to Muhammed, although it's very very close for all human use purposes, but I detect larger problems with the bible.
I also claim that the Bible is sufficient for the purpose it was intended for by God, but I don't have to show disrespect to the Quran to do it. I might not trust the scribes, but I do trust God.

I detect inconsistencies and matters that make no sense whatsoever like confusing the first commmandement of worshiping the one and only god to worshiping Jesus as the lord and savior. These are major discrepencies that can not be tolerated by any person that understands and respect the oneness of god concept.
You do not agree - that is different than seeing an inconsistency. We both testify to one God alone, but I understand that God sent a part of himself to a become part of us. We worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who has become our saviour through Jesus. If their are any specific inconsistencies that bother you, feel free to ask.

Flores

06-25-03, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by Jenyar
The Quran was not compiled during the Prophet's lifetime. The seven different reading might not vary significantly, but it means that the Quran is no more immune to changes than the Bible, even after it was 'approved'. The Bible underwent similar meticulous checks and likewise only the most accurate accounts were adopted.

Agreed, yet it was compiled shortly after by a man named Othman who was alive and a deciple during the time of Prophet Muhammed. Neverthless, as you repeately stated, our true faith is in god and not the scribes, and the holly books are guidelines and not the object of the worship.

Originally posted by Jenyar
The difference is that Jesus used the Old Testament as it was available to the Jews of that time (called the Septuagint, or LXX which we still have today), and that the New Testament testifies about Jesus himself. The OT testifies about the messiah, and the NT testifies about Jesus as the messiah. The fact is, neither Mohammed nor Jesus wrote anything themselves, but trusted scribes and witnesses.

To be honest with you, I'd like to go straight to the elements of the bible that discomfort me. I agree with most of the bible with expception of few things that I feel had to be corrupt. The reason I feel so is because I compared them with the Quran, and I was ready to announce that Quran was wrong in those subject, but after study, I realized that the Quran presented the better seemingly correct view. Issues that I have are: The story of Abraham, Parts of Genesis, misrepresentations of Jesus, and defammation of some prophets by exposing their sex life.

Originally posted by Jenyar
Just which books do you consider to be corrupt? The oldest complete New Testament (about Jesus) dates to 400AD, while the most important books of the OT date from 200 BC - 70 AD (the rest were preserved with great care by the whole of Judaism). You can check which books were found among the Qumran scrolls. What is left, I presume, are those you consider 'corrupted'.

Like I said, I can't totally proof corruption beside the logic that I outlined before. The books were written and compiled during a long time. The church that handeled the books was extremely troubeled during the most part and should not be trusted, the language the bible has been written with is lost and all is availalbe to us is second, third, and fourth hand translations.

Originally posted by Jenyar
This is not based on any facts. I challenge you to substantiate these claims. I have shown you that we have complete manuscripts of all the books of the New Testament (Injil) dating to before 400AD, long before Muhammed testified to their truth in 600AD.

I agree that Muhammed testified to the truth in the Torah and Injil, and that's why I read them, yet the Quran mentions that christians at the time exceeded the limits given to them. Meaning Christians added a lot to the divine message, beefed it up. It's that extra beef that I have trouble with. It was impossible during those times to find enough papers to write and store the entire bible as we see it today, that was an unheard of practice. We can go and research the biggest book during the time to understand the capability of publishing at the time. And where are these original scribes?

Originally posted by Jenyar
The language of the Quran, or "divine language" happens to be the same dialect spoken by Muhammed's tribe?

Arabic is a cousin of Hebrew. Actually it's pronounce AAraby, with the A being AA, real hard to pronounce by a westerner. Hebrew is AAbry. Both languages have almost identical letters, similar words, both right from right to left, ect......The best poetry written in those times where written by the those tribes. Those guys were so good in literature that they started modifying their language and making it richer to accomadate their complicated writings. God wished to silent a bunch of pagan arrogant poets using their same tool which is writing. I consider that a miracle within itself. They with all their might could not produce one Sura like in the Quran.

Originally posted by Jenyar
It only says that the Scripture is "God-breathed".

Yet, It doesn't say that this is the bible is the only and last book. It doesn't even say the injil as mentioned in the Quran. So the Quran gave the bible more credit than the bible gave itself.

Originally posted by Jenyar
I also claim that the Bible is sufficient for the purpose it was intended for by God, but I don't have to show disrespect to the Quran to do it. I might not trust the scribes, but I do trust God.

Amen to that, and trust me I'm not disrespecting the bible, the bible complete many voids in my knowledge and my god tells me that not only that I have to believe what is given to me, but what was sent before me. The Torah and the bible came before me and without learning them properly, I have no basis to understand the Quran.

Originally posted by Jenyar
You do not agree - that is different than seeing an inconsistency. We both testify to one God alone, but I understand that God sent a part of himself to a become part of us. We worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who has become our saviour through Jesus. If their are any specific inconsistencies that bother you, feel free to ask.

Please explain to me your view of the trinity, Jesus as the son of god, and Jesus as god himself. Then we'll compare notes. This is the most ouch subject for me, but what the hell, let's try again.

Mucker

06-25-03, 07:33 AM

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 22:28)" Can we have some context please flores! :rolleyes:

I have read that passage myself but I don't recall it saying 'rape', but something along the lines of 'sleeps with'. I remember the passage fundamentally portraying the message that if a man sleeps with a girl, he must take her as his wife, for life, i.e., men should not just use women for sex. It must also be noted that this is from The New International Version, and Mis-transaltions are not unheard of. The 'red sea' (that parted) was actually supposed to be 'The Reed sea', and the parting is a natural phenomenon! In the King James Version it is written 28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
30 A man shall not take his father's wife, nor discover his father's skirt.

It's Interesting to note how God knows we are all secret tranvestites. :D :rolleyes:

(I think other people have already posted about translations, but this is my effort).

Flores

06-25-03, 07:58 AM

Thanks Mucker,

The moral of the story here is really that the laws of the bible and even some in the Quran were meanat for a specific day and age and not for standard application. For example, I Don't think it's morally correct to publically stone people this day and age, while it was a practice urged by in the Bible and Quran for sexual crimes.

Please remember that the era that the Bible and the Quran were revealed, women used to be treated like shit, so what some passage might imply as againest women, they were actually revolutionary at the time in liberating women. Baby girls during those times were always buried alive to save the father any future scandals. A widow was as good as dead, a raped girl was also as good as dead. The bible took one step forward and placed a liability on the rapist, by our standards today, that's awefull, but back then that was a great move.

The whole objective of this thread is to enlighten some christians to the fact that certain goals justify certain deeds and that everything is not black and white. Women can not be liberated over night, being a slave is better than dead and being one of four wifes is better than being a slave, and being the wife of a rapist is better than killing the woman and rewarding the rapist, ect...... There has been over 2000 years since Jesus Death and things that were a seed back in the times of Jesus are full grown plants now. It makes no sense to apply the bible literally , that would be like ignoring the full grown tree and clinching to the seed for salvation.

Mucker

06-25-03, 09:29 AM

The bible took one step forward and placed a liability on the rapist... Where?? I have just shown the passage about rapists is a mistranslation.

Jenyar

06-25-03, 09:32 AM

Please explain to me your view of the trinity, Jesus as the son of god, and Jesus as god himself. Then we'll compare notes. This is the most ouch subject for me, but what the hell, let's try again.

I have done this in another thread somewhere - I wish I could remember where, because I spent some time writing it! I will look for it...

As you probably know, Muslims have the "99 names of God". "Names" are just ways that we use to try and understand small manageable parts of God - who is unknowable in His entirety (hence the 'missing' 100th name). Hindus would argue that each "name" is a different god, all part of the great Brahman. The Trinity is the same - these are names of God, but names all describe the nature of God. God's glory is such that each of his attributes is 100% completely God, but from our perspective we can only see 33.3% of it. It's the difference between what we 'call' God, and what we 'see/experience' of God.

I'm on dangerous ground again, so please patiently correct me if I am wrong: My understanding is that Muslims have only one experience of God: the Merciful Unknown. Muslims can only hope for God's mercy, but have no promise of it. Is that right? I have read a note left by a Muslim suicide-bomber that asked his wife and children's forgiveness because "it is too hard to attain paradise" any other way than martyrdom. I don't mean to say this is a valid or accepted excuse under Islam, but it illustrates my point.

In the meantime, here is a diagram of how the New Testament interprets the manifestations of God:

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-godhood.gif

Flores

06-25-03, 09:44 AM

That's a good diagram, I haven't seen it before. If I understand it correctly, you are saying that god could be the father, the son, and the holly spirit, but vice versa is not possible, so the son can not be the father, the holly spirit can not be the father, because they are only partial, while god is whole.....I think I understand that and I don't think the view of the trinity violates the oneness of god if viewed as such. God send Jesus and holly spirit to deliver a message. Jesus and the holly spirit are part of god, but not totally god....

You question is

I'm on dangerous ground again, so please patiently correct me if I am wrong: My understanding is that Muslims have only one experience of God: the Merciful Unknown. Muslims can only hope for God's mercy, but have no promise of it. Is that right? I have read a note left by a Muslim suicide-bomber that asked his wife and children's forgiveness because "it is too hard to attain paradise" any other way than martyrdom. I don't mean to say this is a valid or accepted excuse under Islam, but it illustrates my point.

You are right here, we only wish for god mercy to deliver us. That is the true meaning of submittion. Submit means one that is at the mercy of another. You can't truly be a submitter unless you have left your entire fate and destiny in another. The suicide bomber is detinetly mentally disabeled and there are so many mentally disabled undiagnosed people all over the world that take dangerous steps to their goals, but that doesn't speak any truth of a religion or a god, just speaks truth of the person belief.

My question to you, Do chrisitians submit to their lord and his decision nomatter, or do christians love for their god is conditional upon their salvation.

Quigly

06-25-03, 10:03 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please explain to me your view of the trinity, Jesus as the son of god, and Jesus as god himself. Then we'll compare notes. This is the most ouch subject for me, but what the hell, let's try again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another way to look at it is like water.

Water is a liquid, but also can become ice, and a gas.
It is still in essence water, but different attributes of the water. I know that is a simplified look at it. Who can totally know the mysteries of God. Jenyar had a good diagram to show it also.My question to you, Do chrisitians submit to their lord and his decision nomatter, or do christians love for their god is conditional upon their salvation.
I believe you will find a torn view amongst christians if you look at the essence of your question. I think that the nature humans and love is on a conditional basis. Can a person give out unconditional love? I could be wrong...

FLORES- What does your religion talk about Predestination? Does everybody have the ability to believe, or are there chosen people that will receive the Salvation and others that wont? Im curious to know. The christian religion is torn with the belief...

Jihad_AlifLamLamHah

06-25-03, 10:24 AM

I don't think the view of the trinity violates the oneness of god if viewed as such

Cant believe my eyes ........ and this after the recognition of the rape-misunderstanding , wow ........ seems like hating on me makes Flores a better person :D

Anyways , beautifull diagram and totally interesting :

I have a question . I think it doesnt show that father/son/spirit are part of God , but that God is in the middle between them 3 .
Whats up with that ? Or is it like Flores says , and is it simply the unity that represents God , and not 1/3 of the unified ?

I would agree more with such a diagram , but I dont think this one is representing it good enough , weither intended or not .

Now it seems God is excluded from all 3 of them ......

:confused:

My understanding is that Muslims have only one experience of God: the Merciful Unknown. Muslims can only hope for God's mercy, but have no promise of it.

Most Muslims to start with are under the impression that you cannot know God , while everything that can be known IS God . Submission as it is putted means submission to that what God is , and God is not just how you put it .

But indeed most operate this way , as for the martyrs ...... I understand the point being illustrated , the fact that they believe they dont know it , but their act of martyrdom doesnt have to depend on such and usually doesnt , although Im surely not denying the highly religious motivation for actual suicide .

The suicide bomber is detinetly mentally disabeled and there are so many mentally disabled undiagnosed people all over the world that take dangerous steps to their goals

Yes well , everybody is mentally disabled then . Im sure you are aware that you in USA are quite an exception on how you live and in what circumstances , most peoples' lives really really sucks , and those of the Palestinians are one of the top-stories as a peoples .......

Dont worry Im not saying its a smart thing to do from an individual point of view , but dont shov it off like a mental disorder , its a sociological disorder that has grounds in the current situation of daily life . The only seriously disordered part , which IS religion based (as they interpret it) , is the fact they have to kill themselves during an attack . If this wasnt the deal they would be all placing bombs and throwing grenades , and thats when the simple circumstances come in .

or do christians love for their god is conditional upon their salvation.

Although many Muslims believe they dont know , is it not that they feel choiceless and do sign that contract IN THE HOPE that somebody signs it back ? If there was no hope for salvation , woudl a Muslim truly submit ? I dont think so , its all for afterlife .

Jihad_AlifLamLamHah

06-25-03, 10:26 AM

Water is a liquid, but also can become ice, and a gas.

But thats a totally different view isnt it ? Thats just transformation . Thats not partial , thats the complete essence that transforms .

Flores

06-25-03, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by Quigly
Another way to look at it is like water.
Water is a liquid, but also can become ice, and a gas.
It is still in essence water, but different attributes of the water.

I heard that one before and I agree with you, it's very simplified and possibly to view god as a lowly matter and to examine his properties using our limited knowledge of physics. But I do acknowledge the fact that god's will is in everything we do, and was definetly embedded in Jesus's actions and in commanding the holly spirit. To say that Jesus was god sent and inspired by god is the truth, but I don't see it necessary to take the extra step and say that he is a physical son or part of god. I think Jesus will not condemn me for seeing him as god sent and inspiration of the lord.

Originally posted by Quigly
[BFLORES- What does your religion talk about Predestination? Does everybody have the ability to believe, or are there chosen people that will receive the Salvation and others that wont? Im curious to know. The christian religion is torn with the belief... [/B]

Islam really denounce predestination completely. And removes all mediators between god and his creation. Our system of salvation is based on purifying one soul though good doings. So many verses throughout the Quran speaks about the fact that god does not differenciate between one and another except with their use of ability to restrain from evil. We don't believe in any chosen people, and our own Prophet does not even have a clear bill from god to go to heaven. He will be judged just like us.

We know that in this life people will differ in opinion, but we trust that the only judge of the opinions is god.

[6.164] Say: What! shall I seek a Lord other than Allah? And He is the Lord of all things; and no soul earns (evil) but against itself, and no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another; then to your Lord is your return, so He will inform you of that in which you differed.

Jenyar

06-25-03, 10:33 AM

My question to you, Do chrisitians submit to their lord and his decision nomatter, or do christians love for their god is conditional upon their salvation.

It's a good question. I think it's one that Christians should ask themselves more often. The problem is that very few people are honest to themselves. You will sometimes hear atheists or agnostics say: 'I tried God, and He didn't convince me', or 'How could there be a God who permits so much suffering?'
These words expose that 'conditional love' you talk about. They can't even believe in God if He does not conform to their expectations, never mind love Him.

Our submission is based on love, not on fear. A submission based on possible (and even probable) punishment, is based on fear and fear leads to anger and resentment. This is the picture of God many people have in their minds: A strict boss just waiting for you to do something wrong to punish you. However, Jesus taught that those who endure suffering, and persevere in faith, are those who are blessed. The love you show will be rewarded to you a thousand fold. But it is a reward that requires truthfulness, for God judges the heart and the intention. There is a good German proverb that says: "The intention is the soul of the deed".

But if you testify of God's love, and do not practice it, you are lying to yourself. If you practice it ("take up your cross"), continue to have faith, and put your sins to death with Christ, God pardons them, and promises to raise you as He raised Jesus. It's an ongoing process, a fight against temptation and sin, but it is a fight that Jesus has already won.

So the short answer is yes: but it is a two-edged sword. Salvation is a gift that is easy to accept but hard to earn - it is free, but it's not cheap. By persisting in sin salvation is made cheap, and it is an insult to God.

While our debt has been paid, the hard part is remembering how much we owe to God, and many Christians forget God's mercy. So they either try to earn it (which can't be done) or they act as if they have already earned it (which they haven't).

Quigly

06-25-03, 10:36 AM

Jihad:

Yeah, Again my water illistration doesnt attribute enough to the trinity...

So if Muslims do not believe in a Personal God that is involved with his people, then would they just believe that God is this distant being that they will do as much as they can to try to please him in this life in hopes for the next. It sounds like the religion then would make decisions out of Fear rather then a love.. Correct me if I am wrong.

As opposed, Christians believe in a Personal God that is involved with his people. More prone to move out of Love even though humans move with a conditional love. Then again... There are christians that move completely out of fear and with the motivation of the afterlife.

Quigly

06-25-03, 10:47 AM

But I do acknowledge the fact that god's will is in everything we do, and was definetly embedded in Jesus's actions and in commanding the holly spirit. To say that Jesus was god sent and inspired by god is the truth, but I don't see it necessary to take the extra step and say that he is a physical son or part of god. I think Jesus will not condemn me for seeing him as god sent and inspiration of the lord
Jesus coming in flesh was the fulfilling of many old testament prophecies.

...Islam really denounce predestination completely. And removes all mediators between god and his creation. Our system of salvation is based on purifying one soul though good doings. So many verses throughout the Quran speaks about the fact that god does not differenciate between one and another except with their use of ability to restrain from evil. We don't believe in any chosen people, and our own Prophet does not even have a clear bill from god to go to heaven. He will be judged just like us.

I believe that man is totally depraved..(there is no good in him at all.) Without God drawing man to him(choosing him) man would always choose the way of sin and never find God... Man would still worship, because he was created to worship.. but man wouldn't worship God, they would worship Gods creation.. Man, animals, nature, Universe.... Once God draws man to himself and reveals salvation... Man would be created anew and good would flow out of him. Yes man would still sin, but man would no longer be under the bondage of a depraved sinful nature. Good would flow out of the mercy and grace shown to them by God and the plan of salvation through Jesus.

EvilPoet

06-25-03, 11:21 AM

http://killerbutterfly.com/pics/bibwarn2.gif

Flores

06-25-03, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by Quigly
Jesus coming in flesh was the fulfilling of many old testament prophecies.

I agree, so is Prophet Muhammed, he satisfied many prophecies in the bible and I can show you if you wish.

Originally posted by Quigly
I believe that man is totally depraved..(there is no good in him at all.) Without God drawing man to him(choosing him) man would always choose the way of sin and never find God... Man would still worship, because he was created to worship.. but man wouldn't worship God, they would worship Gods creation.. Man, animals, nature, Universe.... Once God draws man to himself and reveals salvation... Man would be created anew and good would flow out of him. Yes man would still sin, but man would no longer be under the bondage of a depraved sinful nature. Good would flow out of the mercy and grace shown to them by God and the plan of salvation through Jesus.

You are wrong here, and beside believing in predestination, you believe in the original sin. Those two issues make me puke when viewing christianity. I'm a mom that gave birth, and when my babies were born they had the clearest most beautifull soul, and if god chose to take them back at the time, their soul would be clear and would be admitted to heaven. If god has already chosen, then what the hell am I doing here. Temporary vacation from eternal hell...?????God told us that he created us as higher creatures with a soul that knows right from wrong. Man has a free will and can keep his soul clean or loose it to sin. God doesn't differentiate between a white and a black or a woman and a man except with the way they treated the precious soul he have given them. To tell a man that he is prechosen is to finish the test before you start it, and how is god to know his devout worshippers from others if he has already prechose some.

Medicine*Woman

06-25-03, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Flores
If god has already chosen, then what the hell am I doing here?

The way I see it--anyone who has set foot on this old Earth was 'chosen' to be here by their Creator--by whatever name we call our Creator, there really is only One Creator, and we are Co-Creators with our Creator. Therefore, when we are born into this world, this has guaranteed us 'salvation,' if you can even call it that. We really don't need to be 'saved' from anything since we've come here to learn what we didn't in the past and to build the Spirit we share with God and the human race. So, we are all chosen for a reason. We each have a purpose in life, but it is our duty to find out what that purpose is while we're here. There may be some kind of master plan that we, as humans, don't understand, but we are totally in charge of our destiny because we are given free will. God is not someone 'out there' sitting on a cloud, striking lightning bolts at us sinners. God is inside each of us to varying degrees. Therefore, we knew before we were born that we would come here. We're here, so we wanted to be here. That is because we are Co-Creators with God. Unless humans realize this, they will have missed their calling in this life. How dangerous religions are! They teach you to worship some old white-bearded man in the sky, but they fail to teach you that you are God's representative on Earth. True 'salvation' comes when you realize the Power of God is Within each of us!

Flores

06-25-03, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
They teach you to worship some old white-bearded man in the sky, but they fail to teach you that you are God's representative on Earth. True 'salvation' comes when you realize the Power of God is Within each of us!

I believe everything you say to a degree and thanks for the good pointers. I have to correct you though, no religion teach that god is a white bearded man in the sky striking lightening bolts except greek mythology. Monotheist religions starting with judiasm, christianity, and ending in Islam, teaches the concept of a one creator or unifier of all forces. Monotheism condemned ideas in greek methology that attributes sons and daughters and royal family to god and make god look and feel like a human.

I don't believe that god is inside of me and that doesn't belittle my believe in god a bit. How can god be inside of me while I know that I'm me and in control of me. I can choose to be good or bad. What if I choose to be bad, am I insulting god by stating that he is inside of me. God is good and pure and is not being subjected to a test here, I'm. God is outside of me and I'm fully responsible of me. Salvation is in the hands of god and not a power within me. I'm at the mercy of my creator.

Quigly

06-25-03, 02:57 PM

You are wrong here, and beside believing in predestination, you believe in the original sin. Those two issues make me puke when viewing christianity. I'm a mom that gave birth, and when my babies were born they had the clearest most beautifull soul, and if god chose to take them back at the time, their soul would be clear and would be admitted to heaven. If god has already chosen, then what the hell am I doing here. Temporary vacation from eternal hell...?????God told us that he created us as higher creatures with a soul that knows right from wrong. Man has a free will and can keep his soul clean or loose it to sin. God doesn't differentiate between a white and a black or a woman and a man except with the way they treated the precious soul he have given them. To tell a man that he is prechosen is to finish the test before you start it, and how is god to know his devout worshippers from others if he has already prechose some.

Original sin is all over in the bible. It seems that you take parts of the bible but not all of it. Where does God say that he created us as higher creatures with a soul that knows right from wrong. If you don't believe in creation and the story Adam and Eve then I can see why you would think that. Man has a free will....Free will is defined :the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies. I do not believe that anyone has a free choice. I do not think every action that a person would do is premeditated by God, but I still do not believe that we, as people (anyone)have the ability to make a decision on a completely neutral unbiased basis. It talks plenty in the bible about god choosing his people. The whole of the old testament is about the history of his chosen people. Jesus himself was part of the predestined plan for salvation. It completely makes since why you do not entertain the thought about predestination. It is because you do not believe in the original sin. Why then does the god you serve require good works? Original sin talks about the fact that we were born into this world with a sin nature. A tendency toward sin. Look at children.. Before they can even talk they can manipulate parents into getting what they want. Then they can become rebellious and throw fits... Kids get a little older and continue to be influenced by their own nature. Why? Sin is in them whether they like it or not. Christians have a baby dedication to where they dedicate the baby to God and charge the parents to uphold christian principles and teach their children until the age of accountability. Please help me understand why you do not believe in Original Sin.

Medicine*Woman

06-25-03, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by Flores
I believe everything you say to a degree and thanks for the good pointers. I have to correct you though, no religion teach that god is a white bearded man in the sky striking lightening bolts except greek mythology. Monotheist religions starting with judiasm, christianity, and ending in Islam, teaches the concept of a one creator or unifier of all forces. Monotheism condemned ideas in greek methology that attributes sons and daughters and royal family to god and make god look and feel like a human.

I don't believe that god is inside of me and that doesn't belittle my believe in god a bit. How can god be inside of me while I know that I'm me and in control of me. I can choose to be good or bad. What if I choose to be bad, am I insulting god by stating that he is inside of me. God is good and pure and is not being subjected to a test here, I'm. God is outside of me and I'm fully responsible of me. Salvation is in the hands of god and not a power within me. I'm at the mercy of my creator.

You are given free will to do as you wish. When you choose to be "bad," you distance your Spirit from that of godliness (i.e. sin). Sin is a free will choice. Humans aren't perfect. That's why we need to be in tune with our Creator. Distancing oneself from one's inner spirit is removing oneself from the "face of God" as I understand it. Believing or not believing is a choice. Even the worst of people still have the innate Spirit of God in them. It's their choice to believe it or not. Even these people can sometimes be the richest or most successful or most beautiful people, yet be so ugly inside.

God is outside you, too. Everyone we see also has been given the power to contain the spirit of god. Whether or not they accept that gift is entirely up to them. So, I still say, we are not at the mercy of our Maker at all--we need to take responsibility for being whatever it is our own Spirit creates of us.

Quigly

06-25-03, 03:16 PM

Jeremy [I]

Thank you for your profound thought on this matter. Can I quote you?

"I"

Just kidding, Place your opinions on what we have been talking about.

Jeremy

06-25-03, 03:19 PM

[I]

oooops...sorry html code errors.

but, yes you may quote:rolleyes:

Jeremy

06-25-03, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by Flores
............. The suicide bomber is ......... but that doesn't speak any truth of a religion or a god, just speaks truth of the person belief.......

If it is not to do with religion, why then, are so many islamics & muslims nuts? I hear about waves of suicide bombers from the islamic world, but not too many atheist bombers. Face it, religion is hatred and rejection of other ideas. The fact that any one religion proclaims itself as above others shows this. Islam especially. Imagine dressing up in silly outfits to bring you closer to god, bowing to Mecca at all times of the day, completely nuts. Mind control at its finest! God could not care less about such pathetic rituals.

strategicman

06-25-03, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by Flores
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 22:28)"

There's just one problem: we don't use shekels.....or do we?? Well, one of you said it's what happens when people translate the bible, ,but that would actually be manipulating.....

okinrus

06-25-03, 05:44 PM

I accept the doctirn of original sin mainly because even if you put most of this world in paradise they will still be sinful.

If it is not to do with religion, why then, are so many islamics & muslims nuts? I hear about waves of suicide bombers from the islamic world, but not too many atheist bombers.

I believe that the Qur'an says that suicide is haraam. However in cases of wartime it may be necessary. For example if your going to die anyways inflict the most harm on the enemy.

Original sin is not something that we commited, it is the lack of grace from our forefathers. As was written, "Cursed be the ground because of you! In toil shall you eat its yield all the days of you life. Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to you, as you eat of the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face shall you get bread to eat. Until you return to the ground from which you were taken. For you are dirt, and to dirt you shall return." Jesus took up our infirmites, by wearing the crown of thorns, by praying in the garden of Olives until his sweat droped like blood and by his death.

Face it, religion is hatred and rejection of other ideas. The fact that any one religion proclaims itself as above others shows this. Islam especially. Imagine dressing up in silly outfits to bring you closer to god, bowing to Mecca at all times of the day, completely nuts. Mind control at its finest! God could not care less about such pathetic rituals.

Most religions are against hatred and consider it sinful. The only thing I have against muslims in here is that it is one sided. Also ritual if done for love of God is alright, however ritual for the sake of ritual will not be.

Maia

06-25-03, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by okinrus
And "the woman shall encompass a man with devotion". Why are you assuming that in bibical times woman were looked bad upon? It was a woman whom Jesus said had faith greater than all of Isreal. Besides rape has always meant stoning.

Do you have any evidence that rape meant stoning? No dictionary will support you. Ask anyone what "rape" means. It means sexual intercourse forced upon a wo/man.

okinrus

06-25-03, 08:34 PM

Now were getting a bit to literal. Does jumping off an airplane mean death? However if we look closely there's an archaic definition of rape: to seize and take away by force. By stoning were seizing and taking away life itself. Therefore stoning falls under rape.

Maia

06-25-03, 08:38 PM

Of course jumping off a 10,000 foot high airplane means death. You are making things up to suit yourself.

I see no evidence or references for your definition of rape. As for mine, all the dictionaries in America are my references.

Jihad_AlifLamLamHah

06-25-03, 08:49 PM

If it is not to do with religion, why then, are so many islamics & muslims nuts? I hear about waves of suicide bombers from the islamic world, but not too many atheist bombers. Face it, religion is hatred and rejection of other ideas. The fact that any one religion proclaims itself as above others shows this. Islam especially. Imagine dressing up in silly outfits to bring you closer to god, bowing to Mecca at all times of the day, completely nuts. Mind control at its finest! God could not care less about such pathetic rituals.

Seems your full of shit Jeremy , you obviously fail to distinguish cause affect , and link things with eachother based on relevance .

Should I even bother commenting ? What the heck

1)their interpertation of religion only brings in the question of martyrdome what implies own death , otherwise the same oppressed peoples that commit acts of violence against fascists would detonate bombs from a distance like IRA or ETA (Im not arguing their legitimacy , just pointing out tactic) .

2)many atheists however do kill other peoples without killing themselves , if you point out the suicide as stupid , I couldnt agree with you more .

3)You dont , you point out religion as hatred .... so you prove my point perfectly here .

4)Islam especially ? What does clothing and the Salaat have to do with anything ? Do you know anything of both ? No ? Then shut up please

5)God could care less about pathetic rituals ? What God ? That one in the sky who's looking down ? Let me let you in on somethin .......... doesnt exist .

startegic
There's just one problem: we don't use shekels.....or do we?? Well, one of you said it's what happens when people translate the bible, ,but that would actually be manipulating.....

Actually they do nowaydays , in ISRAEL . Insane right ? Indeed .
Yes translation is manipulation , sometimes without the manipulator even knowing it :p

okinrus

06-25-03, 08:52 PM

Webster defintion 2 and 3. http://www.webster.com/

one_raven

06-25-03, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by okinrus
Besides rape has always meant stoning.

Yeah.
That's what it meant.
If you stone a woman (the intention and usual result of which was death) then you must marry her and can't divorce her till she dies.

That makes a great deal of sense. :bugeye:

Grasping at straws again, I see.

Don't you get weary from constanly twisting the meanings of passages to fit your personal views and justifying your faith?

okinrus

06-25-03, 09:16 PM

No you don't understand. Removing a stone from the earth causes the earth to loose her virginity. That's rape. No doubt about it.

Don't you get weary from constanly twisting the meanings of passages to fit your personal views and justifying your faith?

I'm not sure what your talking about. Flores was using a different translation than me.

Medicine*Woman

06-25-03, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by okinrus
No you don't understand. Removing a stone from the earth causes the earth to loose her virginity. That's rape. No doubt about it.

I'm not sure what your talking about. Flores was using a different translation than me.

Stone a woman, you take her life.
Rape a woman, you take her soul.

Jeremy

06-25-03, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by Maia
Of course jumping off a 10,000 foot high airplane means death. ......

Have you heard of a parachute?

Jenyar

06-26-03, 03:15 AM

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
The way I see it--anyone who has set foot on this old Earth was 'chosen' to be here by their Creator--by whatever name we call our Creator, there really is only One Creator, and we are Co-Creators with our Creator. Therefore, when we are born into this world, this has guaranteed us 'salvation,' if you can even call it that. We really don't need to be 'saved' from anything since we've come here to learn what we didn't in the past and to build the Spirit we share with God and the human race. So, we are all chosen for a reason. We each have a purpose in life, but it is our duty to find out what that purpose is while we're here. There may be some kind of master plan that we, as humans, don't understand, but we are totally in charge of our destiny because we are given free will. God is not someone 'out there' sitting on a cloud, striking lightning bolts at us sinners. God is inside each of us to varying degrees. Therefore, we knew before we were born that we would come here. We're here, so we wanted to be here. That is because we are Co-Creators with God. Unless humans realize this, they will have missed their calling in this life. How dangerous religions are! They teach you to worship some old white-bearded man in the sky, but they fail to teach you that you are God's representative on Earth. True 'salvation' comes when you realize the Power of God is Within each of us!

This is what I believe:
Philippians 2
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death--
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

okinrus

06-26-03, 04:20 AM

Stone a woman, you take her life.
Rape a woman, you take her soul.

The earth was the virgin mother of Adam and the shed blood of Abel defiled her.

Jan Ardena

06-26-03, 06:03 AM

Originally posted by Jeremy
If it is not to do with religion, why then, are so many islamics & muslims nuts?

There are billions of nutz, one only has to watch Japanese TV. :D
But seriously, how many people have been killed by suicide Islamic fundamentalists, in the last 30 years, by people who have claimed their acts.
In just the US, alone, how many people have been killed through, guns, rapes, drugs, greed, jealousy, envy, alcohol, police brutality, gangs, prisons and pointless wars, where there has been no claims from Islamic fundamentalists, in the last 30 years.
As much as you claim Islamic or religious texts and teaching for murders, violent films, literature, clubs, groups, scientific advancement, music and patriotism, can be seen in the same way as religious teaching, from your perspective.

I hear about waves of suicide bombers from the islamic world, but not too many atheist bombers.

Waves? As I have challenged above, tell me how many people has been killed by Islamic fundamentalists who have claimed their actions, in comparisson to non-muslim, murders and suicides.
People who don’t believe in God (atheists) do not have any reason to express themselves in such a manner, even though some do murder and commit suicide, and bring innocents with them.
Are the atheists in America oppressed?

Face it, religion is hatred and rejection of other ideas.

Face it, you are hatred, when you make these kind of baseless, ignorant claims. You should first read the instructions as set by the said religion (Islam), then see if any of these minority groups (terrorist) are actually in accordance with Allah, before citing such ignorance.

….nor kill(or destroy) yourselves;
indeed Allah has been most merciful to you.
Al-Quran, chapter 4, v29

In adition to the above verse of the Qur’an, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) has warned that anyone who commits suicide will be deprived of Allahs mercy on the Day of judgement.

“In the time before you, a man was wounded. His wounds troubled him so much that he took a knife and cut his wrist and bled himself to death. Thereupon Allah said, ‘My slave burried in the matter of his life, therefore he is deprived of the Paradise.’”
Al-Bukhari, Muslim

The acts of suicide bombers have nothing to do with the real Islam. They have other agendas and are using the name of Islam, to give their cause credibility. People will always want to cling to something which has credibility, and will act under such guises.

The fact that any one religion proclaims itself as above others shows this.

No, the fact is that there is only one religion, and that religion is to surrender to God, any other so-called religion that does not aspire to this oneness is bogus.

Islam especially. Imagine dressing up in silly outfits to bring you closer to god, bowing to Mecca at all times of the day, completely nuts.

You are an idiot with next to nothing understanding. :(

Mind control at its finest! God could not care less about such pathetic rituals.

Don’t get me started on mind-control using the latest scientific technological developments :D

Love

Jan Ardena.