The arguments for & against letting Turkey into EU

For

The Turkish people are almost all Muslim but the government system is NOT religious but secular.

It is the most moderate Islamic country in the world, it even has relations with Israel.

It can serve a bridge between the west and Islam.


Against

Like any Muslim country. It is still extremely corrupted and terrible in most basic human rights like torture, etc..

It can serve only as a dangerous bridge, invasion-entry for masses of Arab Muslims flooding into EU, including Islamic terrorists.

Their masses sure showed much intolerance, especially At their fanatic violent reaction in the Jihad against Pope's marking Islam as 'nothing but violent'.

If you go to a country as a European and fear getting kidnapped and beheaded, it shouldn't be in the EU :D

Like any Muslim country? Do you feel all countries with prodominantly Muslim inhabitants are inherently corrupt and use torture?

Most of the world's Muslims live in Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan and Africa, not the Arab countries in the Middle East.

There should be no bridge between Islam and the West. There should be a division and one which is not crossed.

The West is not Islamic. That is one of the ways it ought to be -defined-. To be a Westerner precludes the ability to be Islamic.

Moreover, as you mentioned in the "against", the very fact that all Turks would become politically European, and that this woud mean millions of Moslems recognized in connection with the West, would be disasterous. The horrific barbary of Islam and her followers would become common place in Europe, even moreso than it has.

Most of the world's Muslims live in Malaysia, Indonesia, Pakistan and Africa, not the Arab countries in the Middle East.... with terrible human rights, though not as bad as in brutal dictatorships like Syria.

FOR:
Cheap manufacturing base for the corporations.
Mass of young workers that will be assimilated by Europe and add to the pension coffers much needed by an aging western population with a dwindling workforce.
Overland route for fossil fuel energy supplies.

AGAINST:
Vast majority of population militant Islamist and ultra Nationalistic.
Seriously large culture / educational gap between Them and Us.
An extremely difficult race to reason and compromise with.
Inherent mentality is vehemently anti human rights.
Vast difference in culture, education and attitude between the west and the east of the country.

The western coastal region might be ready for Europe within 1 or 2 generations, but the rest of the country is way out of sync with any European values. Turkey needs to westernise the whole of itself before it can stand a chance of joining Europe, but it probably can't do that without some kind of long term help from the EU. What might happen is that it will be offered some kind of conditional special status membership so that the EU can capitalise on Turkey's assets within 10-20 years if not sooner.

contra:
1 isn't willing to fully recognise a country of the EU,
2 By EU standards the island of cyprus is a membre but Turkye is not (yet) so it's effectifly invaded EU border
3 The military has enormous power over the political class I'm thinking of the end of joint military operations between france and turkey where the political top of turkey wasn't involved. This is rather dangerous.
4 Large gap between reality in both countries, the're not that extreme and we are not that rich

pro:
1 they 're not so bad
2 Their muslims but not so much extreme ones, if they don't join the changes that they become extreme encreases dramatically
3 Ligitiment EU influence in the middle east ligitiment military build up with border like Iran Iraq Jordania
4 there economy is not to be underestimated.

conclusion it's proberly going to happen part under US pressure part under Turkey pressure for some reason they want in, I bet the main problem is going to be with the nations military altough it's very unlickley that they wil perform a coup or something.

I will have you remember that the Turks tried to take over Europe 500 years ago. Why we would give it to them after crushing them in 1914 is beyond me.

In related news, Bulgaria and Romania joined the EU today.

I will have you remember that the Turks tried to take over Europe 500 years ago. Why we would give it to them after crushing them in 1914 is beyond me.
The Germans tried to take over Europe 70 years ago, yet they were among the EU's earliest members only decades after being crushed.

Prince_James:"The horrific barbary of Islam and her followers would become common place in Europe, even moreso than it has...

To be a Westerner precludes the ability to be Islamic."


Does the hypocrisy of your pronouncements really escape you?

Is it just me, or does the Islamic culture remind you of the 'Borg' from star trek? If you are not assimilated, you are anihalated. "Resistance is futile."

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d0/DutchSinterklaas2005.jpg

Yes evil incarnate I see...

The US reminds me of the Ferengi.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Santa_usairforce.jpg

Maybe you know the american version better his real neam is (saint) Nickolas and he's a Turk.
At least something good comes from Turkey

The US reminds me of the Ferengi.

I was thinking more of the Cardassians, they only look out for what benifits themselves and dont care who they kill to get it. Yes, i believe we are the Cardassians. (did i mention arrogant?)

Yes but the Ferengi would sell thier own mother for gold-pressed latinum.

Yes but the Ferengi would sell thier own mother for gold-pressed latinum.

ouch, the truth hurts. Except we seem to be selling our sons and daughters for earth pumped 'black gold'. I really wish this war would end.

You lose more than you gain by letting them in, if you make the entire balance.

If you go to a country as a European and fear getting kidnapped and beheaded, it shouldn't be in the EU :D:) "no need to leave the EU for that"...

First off: The Cardies are awesome.

Secondly: Hypewarders, I do not see the hypocrisy in my statements whatsoever. I think Islam is a plague on European peoples. We all ready sold out to Semitic religions once, and look what THAT got us (Dark Ages).

Europe for Europeans.

"Europe for Europeans."

What about European Muslims and Jews?

"Europe for Europeans."

Are you not espousing a similar intolerance to radical Islamism?

"Europe for Europeans"

What are your specifications for qualifying as "European"?

"I do not see the hypocrisy in my statements whatsoever."

You do not see a similarity between calls for European cultural isolation and calls for Islamic rule?

I think Islam is a plague on European peoples

A plague... interesting word choise a plague...

Can't say that I like the ID of masked people walking around in my street that's the only thing that realy bugs me. Also the fact that you can't understand a single word they are saying and offcourse because they are fond of locking their wives up inside their houses so you never see some of your neigbours, that's disurbing.
However it can be said that if a genuine moslim country should joing the EU then some of the moslims would considre the ID of moving to that country where people can better understand their languege where they feel better understood, and in general feel pretty stoopid because Turkey isn't that extreme at all. Their could be something like a official languege border or a official religion border that people are allowed to cross but somehow marks a border.

In the end their are already moslims in europe. Perhaps they feel more inclined to adapt to their host countries if they knew that if they want a extremer religious life they can do it in some moslim country thats still in the EU free from things like sharia or offcourse return to their back to their home country but they've already have that option offcourse

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Santa_usairforce.jpg

Maybe you know the american version better his real neam is (saint) Nickolas and he's a Turk.
At least something good comes from Turkey

Saint Nicholas was never a Turk. Nicholas was born in Asia Minor during the third century in the Greek colony of Patara in the Roman province of Lycia, at a time when the region was Hellenistic in its culture and outlook. Nicholas became bishop of the city of Myra.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Santa_usairforce.jpg

Maybe you know the american version better his real neam is (saint) Nickolas and he's a Turk.
At least something good comes from Turkey

Well, I did have a tryptophan joke, but it seemed too juvinile.

Hypewaders:

What about European Muslims and Jews?

No Moslems. And I'll accept Jews, but prefer if they moved to Israel. This is not their home.

Are you not espousing a similar intolerance to radical Islamism?

Yes.

What are your specifications for qualifying as "European"?

Someone of European ancestry (I.E. white), born in Europe or an over seas territory (or perhaps a nation such as America or Australia), and non-Islamic (including converts).

You do not see a similarity between calls for European cultural isolation and calls for Islamic rule?

I do not view sovereignty and integrity the same as domination and invasion.

I'm a Turk, I just want to share some of my thoughts here and correct misunderstandings

First off all, I'm not a nationalist or a muslim (I'm an atheist) and I'm definitely not pro-government

Like any Muslim country. It is still extremely corrupted and terrible in most basic human rights like torture, etc..

Obvious lie. It has problems but not extremely corrupted and terrible in most basic human rights. I think you're mixing up Turkey with Afghanistan


Their masses sure showed much intolerance, especially At their fanatic violent reaction in the Jihad against Pope's marking Islam as 'nothing but violent'.

Another obvious bullshit. 100.000 people walked for the dead Christian-Armenian in Turkey last week. That people reacting to pope was a hardly 20.000 people which is the only Islamist party of Turkey. Turkish people are as secular as Europeans. My British friends say Islam in Turkey is like Christianity in the UK

Vast majority of population militant Islamist and ultra Nationalistic.
Nationalist yes, ultra no. Militant Islamist hell no! Sir, have you ever been to Turkey? Ever?

An extremely difficult race to reason and compromise with.

Difficult race.. hmmmm.

orcot is informed about the country you can rely on his posts.

But people, you need to at least know something before having an idea? Don't you think so?

Is this the fault of Turks who cannot advertise their country well? Or is this just ignorance, I don't know... orcot knows very well, so others could.

Does the hypocrisy of your pronouncements really escape you?
Obviously yes.

For
Against

Like any Muslim country. It is still extremely corrupted and terrible in most basic human rights like torture, etc..
It can serve only as a dangerous bridge, invasion-entry for masses of Arab Muslims flooding into EU, including Islamic terrorists.
Their masses sure showed much intolerance, especially At their fanatic violent reaction in the Jihad against Pope's marking Islam as 'nothing but violent'.



FOR:
Cheap manufacturing base for the corporations.
Mass of young workers that will be assimilated by Europe and add to the pension coffers much needed by an aging western population with a dwindling workforce.
Overland route for fossil fuel energy supplies.


AGAINST:
Vast majority of population militant Islamist and ultra Nationalistic.
Seriously large culture / educational gap between Them and Us.
An extremely difficult race to reason and compromise with.
Inherent mentality is vehemently anti human rights.
Vast difference in culture, education and attitude between the west and the east of the country.

AGAINST:

Many European are so ignorant that believe Turkey is a militant, unhumane, barbaric country whose people eat human meat.

TURKISH people have much deeper and older a culture than the Europe, and if EU accession means assimilation and leaving their own culture, they better not.

Human rights and democracy is fast improving in Turkey, but thanks to removal of many rules like police authority, heavy punishments, execution etc. due to EU pressure, the country now has a serious security problem as the criminals are not afraid of the laws anymore and the police can not shoot those who fire at them.

Fleshy western culture is taking over the old eastern spiritual culture little by little, and the old traditional culture (with its pros and cons) is giving up to capitalism and sexuality. The EU accession will have a catalyst effect on this.

EU is a group of hypocrites, they took the Southern Cyprus against their principles of not taking any country with border problems till these problems are solved and while the new Turkish government and the ppl of the northern Cyprus were doing their best to reconcile.

EU will use Turkey's bid for membership as a pressure toold to make them accept such lies as the Armenian genocide,and then come up with other genocide allegations, and force Turkey to give big parts of its soil to Armenia.

Some countries in Europe will eventually bar Turkey from accession for good after they get all the concessions they want now.



The West is not Islamic. That is one of the ways it ought to be -defined-. To be a Westerner precludes the ability to be Islamic.

Well...nothing can be said in reply to this kind of belief, can it?

There should be no bridge between Islam and the West. There should be a division and one which is not crossed.

The West is not Islamic. That is one of the ways it ought to be -defined-. To be a Westerner precludes the ability to be Islamic.

Moreover, as you mentioned in the "against", the very fact that all Turks would become politically European, and that this woud mean millions of Moslems recognized in connection with the West, would be disasterous. The horrific barbary of Islam and her followers would become common place in Europe, even moreso than it has.

Once again, the word moslem is no longer the correct word, its Muslim. It was changed.

AND

Religion should have nothing to do with being "west" at all. It's not the West vs. Islam. I think all governments should be secular (secular rule, i don't ,mean atheist leaders), and let the people choose what they want to be.

chuuush, do you have anything to support your opinion?
precendence, historical documents..anything?

against.

72,600,000 people will join the EU which living standards are well below the European average.

In fact Turkey will be the second biggest nation in the EU when they join. And Germany the biggest one will have to pay for it. Germany is still struggling from 'assimilating' the DDR.

Not likely.

Free Matt 187:

I have read the word "Moslem" in many books. It's my personal preference to use.

chuuush, do you have anything to support your opinion?
precendence, historical documents..anything?

Which part of it?


against.

72,600,000 people will join the EU which living standards are well below the European average.

In fact Turkey will be the second biggest nation in the EU when they join. And Germany the biggest one will have to pay for it. Germany is still struggling from 'assimilating' the DDR.

Not likely.

Well, if everything was due to economics I should say countries like Bulgaria and Romania are way poorer than Turkey, with less but again considerable population and much less potentials.
I do not believe the idea that the opposition is merely an economic one. It is something much deeper. Why do you think Turkey is used as an effective propoganda tool whenever some anti-Turkey party in France or Germany or Holland ... aims at winning the elections. Why does anti-Turkish talks inflame much more just at times when elections are close in such countries. Would people easily get duped by such rhetorics of the politicians if they didn't really have something against Turks down deep there.

Yet again, I say, Turkey should not enter the EU club for its own good, even if they let it to. I don't think anybody can bring in good reasoning to change my mind here. As per theeconomy and human rights as well as the democracy I suppose they are decided and will do it with or without EU.

hmm...

for: more Döner Kebap stalls/places...
germans going on holiday can pay in euros

contra: everyone in germany will have to learn turkish

http://www.doener365.de/img/db/2166.jpg


I'm hungry

Nationalist yes, ultra no. Militant Islamist hell no! Sir, have you ever been to Turkey? Ever?



Difficult race.. hmmmm.



You may not be Islamist but the Western media would have us believe that the vast majority are, and the only reason that they are not militant is because Islamist political parties are banned.

I have been to Turkey, twice. It's a beautiful country and it's big...man it's so big, which leads me to wonder, why the hell don't they remove their army from Cyprus? Why do they need to have a foothold in such a small country?

They reason that they invaded Cyprus to protect the Turkish minority during the USA backed Greek Junta inspired Cyprus fiasco in 1974 but they did much more than that, taking 45% of the country and ethnically cleansing it of its rightful owners, the Greek Cypriots. They then imported many more mainland Turks than the indigenous Turkish Cypriots, gave them Greek Cypriot land and property and are now developing Greek Cypriot land and selling the flats and houses to foreigners.

In the past few years there has been more free movement between the 2 communities, Greek Cypriots visit the North in their thousands and spend millions in the Turkish casinos and restaurants, whileTurkish Cypriots visit the south to do their shopping, use the free hospital services and get their European passports. There has never ever been any trouble between the 2 communities since this freedom of movement was introduced, so I ask again, why does Turkey not remove its 35,000 heavily armed troops from a tiny country with a population of 650,000 Greek Cypriots?

The Greek Cypriots, through the auspices of the UN, have been trying to reason with Turkey and to reach an acceptable compromise for a solution since 1975, but the Turks will not budge from their intrasigent stance and are not willing to give an inch. Now, they are threatening the Greek Cypriots with force of war because the Greeks did not include the illegal Turkish regime in the international dealings with other nearby countries concerning the oil exploration that is about to commence in Cyprus / international waters.

Difficult to reason with? Absolutely.

Which part of it?




Well, if everything was due to economics I should say countries like Bulgaria and Romania are way poorer than Turkey, with less but again considerable population and much less potentials.
I do not believe the idea that the opposition is merely an economic one. It is something much deeper. Why do you think Turkey is used as an effective propoganda tool whenever some anti-Turkey party in France or Germany or Holland ... aims at winning the elections. Why does anti-Turkish talks inflame much more just at times when elections are close in such countries. Would people easily get duped by such rhetorics of the politicians if they didn't really have something against Turks down deep there.

Poor economics in combination with size. Nobody has to listen to what romania says. 22 million people there. hardly more than a small shit country like holland. Bulgaria: 7 million people. A midget.

Turkey will be the second biggest nation in the EU if it would be accepted. That's not something the big rich countries of the EU will gladly see happening.

And on top of that you have the undemocratic values etc.

AGAINST:

EU is a group of hypocrites, they took the Southern Cyprus against their principles of not taking any country with border problems till these problems are solved and while the new Turkish government and the ppl of the northern Cyprus were doing their best to reconcile.








There is no southern Cyprus and no northern Cyprus. Cyprus is one country, which is in part illegally occupied by Turkey. The whole of Cyprus is a member of EU and that includes Turkish Cypriots, but rightly excludes illegal Turkish settlers.

If Turkey wants to 'reconcile' all they need do, is get their troops and illegal settlers out. There is no problem between Greek and Turkish Cypriots, the problem is Turkey.

for: more Döner Kebap stalls/places...
http://www.doener365.de/img/db/2166.jpg



Fuck yeah! I practically lived off of those when I visited Germany...

I got a lot of dirty looks in Germany, I think because I looked Turkish.

I got a lot of dirty looks in Germany, I think because I looked Turkish.

Maybe it was the swastika logo on your T shirt.

Free Matt 187:

I have read the word "Moslem" in many books. It's my personal preference to use.

Hmm sorta like the British spellings huh?:p

Yes. I prefer the "u" intact in my "honour", thank you very much, Mr. Webster.

Yes. I prefer the "u" intact in my "honour", thank you very much, Mr. Webster.

You're a funny guy.

You seem like the kind who's partial to antique furniture and collectors items!:D

And tweed jackets with leather elbow patches. Perhaps a monocle?

http://norbizness.com/archives/monocle.gif

You may not be Islamist but the Western media would have us believe that the vast majority are, and the only reason that they are not militant is because Islamist political parties are banned.

I have been to Turkey, twice. It's a beautiful country and it's big...man it's so big, which leads me to wonder, why the hell don't they remove their army from Cyprus? Why do they need to have a foothold in such a small country?

They reason that they invaded Cyprus to protect the Turkish minority during the USA backed Greek Junta inspired Cyprus fiasco in 1974 but they did much more than that, taking 45% of the country and ethnically cleansing it of its rightful owners, the Greek Cypriots. They then imported many more mainland Turks than the indigenous Turkish Cypriots, gave them Greek Cypriot land and property and are now developing Greek Cypriot land and selling the flats and houses to foreigners.

In the past few years there has been more free movement between the 2 communities, Greek Cypriots visit the North in their thousands and spend millions in the Turkish casinos and restaurants, whileTurkish Cypriots visit the south to do their shopping, use the free hospital services and get their European passports. There has never ever been any trouble between the 2 communities since this freedom of movement was introduced, so I ask again, why does Turkey not remove its 35,000 heavily armed troops from a tiny country with a population of 650,000 Greek Cypriots?

The Greek Cypriots, through the auspices of the UN, have been trying to reason with Turkey and to reach an acceptable compromise for a solution since 1975, but the Turks will not budge from their intrasigent stance and are not willing to give an inch. Now, they are threatening the Greek Cypriots with force of war because the Greeks did not include the illegal Turkish regime in the international dealings with other nearby countries concerning the oil exploration that is about to commence in Cyprus / international waters.

Difficult to reason with? Absolutely.

What chuuush said
Many European are so ignorant that believe Turkey is a militant, unhumane, barbaric country whose people eat human meat.
Actually no need to discuss but lets waste some time

I'm living here, therefore I know a little better. I don't need to convict you that majority is not Islamist because this is obvious and you have no proof. And west media is not showing Turks as militant Islamist it's just you. Read BBC or New York Times and you'll see. Read articles from Turkey experts and you'll see. Walk half an hour in the middle of Istanbul and you'll see. Turn on a TV in Turkey and you'll see. Talk to 100 random people and you'll see.
You believe in your own truth, also believing that others believe the same. No, it's your bias.

Who are they? Do you think all people in Turkey is for the army in Cyprus. Do you think all Turkish people are responsible for faults. And that makes them militant Islamist or ultra nationalist? Great. So all Americans are responsible for what Bush did. You can multiply the examples. Next time you visit Turkey, pay attention to people. Talk with people, hear what they say. It doesn't matter you believe all Turks are this or that it doesn't make any difference. I think you're wrong and I'm trying to tell you the truth. I'm not trying to change the truth.

I'm against Turkish army in Cyprus. I want resolution as soon as possible. So many Turks do.

Yes, there are many ultra nationalists and some Islamists. But majority of the Turks are not religious. They don't attend prayers they drink alchohol, TV's all full of half-naked Turkish models and stars. You're not being fair.

Even the majority of people of Iran are not militant Islamists. Did you know that? Militant Islam is El-Qaida, women merely covering their head are not militant Islamists.

And Cyprus has nothing to do with religion. It's pure, bad smelling nationalism. Which the political parties use for getting votes from the lumpens.

It's not a "racial" thing. I'm confused how do you relate this with race.

I hope I could express my thoughts. Sorry if I'm too harsh.

Edit: I saw your post about Ottoman Empire and realized you're Greek. I'm not a bloody ultra nationalist I like Greek people I have Greek friends and really dislike the dispute over Cyprus. Just wanted to tell what I believe about people. It's not a big deal after all.

Poor economics in combination with size. Nobody has to listen to what romania says. 22 million people there. hardly more than a small shit country like holland. Bulgaria: 7 million people. A midget.

Turkey will be the second biggest nation in the EU if it would be accepted. That's not something the big rich countries of the EU will gladly see happening.

And on top of that you have the undemocratic values etc.

If Turkey can provide what EU needs there would not be any reason for keeping it out of EU. It's one of the fastest developing countries in the world and it will surely boost internal dynamics of EU. Believe or not, EU needs Turkey.

Religion should have nothing to do with being "west" at all. It's not the West vs. Islam. I think all governments should be secular (secular rule, i don't ,mean atheist leaders), and let the people choose what they want to be.
But many Muslims do not agree. They will not be happy until the entire world submits (the literal translation of Islam) to Islamic law.

Yes. I prefer the "u" intact in my "honour", thank you very much, Mr. Webster.
You know, it was none other than Ben Franklin who made many of the changes to American English. What kind of patriot are you?
:)

But many Muslims do not agree. They will not be happy until the entire world submits (the literal translation of Islam) to Islamic law.

Many but not all. Turkish muslims never claim such thing. Even the Islamists in Turkey are not like jihadist losers. Shariah supporters had %1 or so votes. Yes they have a party they're still not banned. This is why Turkey can be an official EU candidate country. All muslims are not just bunch of middle eastern jihadists.

edit: duplicate post

it will surely boost internal dynamics of EU.

How?

Have you checked the finances of the EU? Did you know only a few countries actually pay more than that they receive. Do you think they would also like to pay for the turkey bill?

How?

Have you checked the finances of the EU? Did you know only a few countries actually pay more than that they receive. Do you think they would also like to pay for the turkey bill?

I don't need to give you a lesson about EU economics. If EU did not need Turkey they wouldn't ever accept it as candidate. They could claim it's in Asia and it's over. You say all the experts are wrong and your Turkey bias/dislike is always true. We don't need to discuss anything because your thoughts about Turkey are not likely to change. That's what I saw in your posts.

There is no southern Cyprus and no northern Cyprus. Cyprus is one country, which is in part illegally occupied by Turkey. The whole of Cyprus is a member of EU and that includes Turkish Cypriots, but rightly excludes illegal Turkish settlers.

Are you a national of Southern Cypriot?

If Turkey wants to 'reconcile' all they need do, is get their troops and illegal settlers out. There is no problem between Greek and Turkish Cypriots, the problem is Turkey.

Who will guarantee that the southerns will not resume the atrocities they had to leave unfinished in the pre-1974 era, the EU, we saw them in Srebrenitsa.

No problem between the two nations? Yes, I suppose Bosnian muslims abd serbs also had no problem, same with th serbs and the Albanians in Kosova.... You should study more about why Turkey had to interfere to stop a human tragedy and why Turkey and the U.K. are called Guarantor countries.

I don't need to give you a lesson about EU economics. If EU did not need Turkey they wouldn't ever accept it as candidate. They could claim it's in Asia and it's over. You say all the experts are wrong and your Turkey bias/dislike is always true. We don't need to discuss anything because your thoughts about Turkey are not likely to change. That's what I saw in your posts.

My thoughts are certainly not going to change by absence of substantiated arguments.

Rethoric is rethoric. How is turkey going to stimulate the internal dynamics of the EU?

A range of arguments can be heard inside the EU. One is that Turkey is not culturally "European".

Another is that it will cause a wave of Turkish immigrants. A third is that widening the EU to include Turkey will prevent further deepening of political and economic union. A fourth is that Turkey is too big, and will therefore exercise too much power within the EU. A fifth is that it is too poor, and will cost the rest of the EU too much.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4107919.stm

How can bleeding the EU be translated into stimulating the dynamics of the EU? Does it just mean that a lot of money is send to Turkey?
Does it mean that a wave of turkish workers will spread around Europe?

My thoughts are certainly not going to change by absence of substantiated arguments.

Rethoric is rethoric. How is turkey going to stimulate the internal dynamics of the EU?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4107919.stm

How can bleeding the EU be translated into stimulating the dynamics of the EU? Does it just mean that a lot of money is send to Turkey?
Does it mean that a wave of turkish workers will spread around Europe?

An important argument in favor is that Turkey has a very dynamic, rapidly modernising economy. In 2004 and 2005, growth was above 7%, being far above average growth in the EU. Although the current GNP per capita is still lower than all of the other new EU-countries, the current economic growth rate suggests that in a few years, Turkey will have overtaken several of these.

In addition, Turkey has a young population. That, combined with the huge size of the country, and its growth rates, constitutes a major dynamism and a huge opportunity for the EU.

See?

Some "rich" EU citizens don't even understand Turkey's accession would be better for them. As I said before EU would not even start accession talks if it did not need Turkey. Anyone holding a gun towards them or what? Are they afraid or so? Why the hell they're dealing with Turkey?

If you believe it's just economics you're far away from understanding

NATO connection

Outside Turkey, Atlanticist countries such as the United Kingdom believe that Turkey, having been a staunch NATO ally, would help counteract France's usually independent stance towards the United States. In non-Atlanticist countries such as France, this is of course seen as an argument against Turkish membership.

Many in the West hope that Turkish membership would cement its alignment with the West. Turkey is a strong regional military power that might give the EU more weight in hotspots like Syria, Iraq or Iran. Alternatively some believe that conditional Turkish membership would encourage moves towards more stable economic growth, democratic government and a less interfering military. This could potentially provide a model of democracy for the rest of the Middle East, comparable to the role played by Western Europe in the Cold War.

Religious

A prevalent point of view from Ankara as well as members of the EU is that EU can be called a "Christian club", and there are suspicions of allowing such a large Muslim country in. However, the foundation of the European Union was never claimed to be on religious grounds, so this argument is something that seems to trouble the general population rather than specific politicians or experts.

European Christians who had converted to Islam freely rose to the highest position in the Ottoman Empire. More Grand Viziers were ethnic Albanian, Slav, or Greek devshirmes, rather than Turks. Even the maternal lineage of Ottoman Sultans was non-Turkish after the first few generations. The Ottomans made key contributions to European culture.

The Turks consider their state a strongly secular one, just as the EU defines itself (for example with the abandonment of the proposals to make reference to Europe's Christian heritage in the draft European Constitution). Compared with the neighbouring Arabic Muslim states, this secular character is obvious.

Demographics

Turkey's overwhelmingly Muslim population would lend considerable weight to EU multi-culturalism efforts and might help to prevent potential scenarios involving a clash of civilizations. At the same time, Turkey's young (23% of population is under 15) and well-educated population might act as a balance for the increasingly aging populations of the current EU. In relation to this, Samuel Huntington regards Turkey as a split country in his book Clash of Civilizations, which could drift off to Islamism and/or nationalism if European integration fails.

If you have "against" arguments, then there's "for" arguments. This is why I said it's useless to discuss with you. You say the same thing, I say the same thing and we'll never agree. Endless dialogs.

You actually don't care for other countries or people. You only care for your welfare and if you see a threat to your welfare you just argue. This is why you only focus on economics.
Therefore no need to even discuss.

mindtrick- Yes, there are many ultra nationalists and some Islamists. But majority of the Turks are not religious. They don't attend prayers they drink alchohol, TV's all full of half-naked Turkish models and stars. You're not being fair.

mindtrick, you talk about these as if they are human virtues or good merits! I'm surprised... do you think that Turkish people should leave their religion and culture just so that th Europeans feel sympathy towards them. Can't you see that the what is meant is to make a world of robotic uniform culture, uniform norms. Does being non-religious guarantee that people will be good ones and being religious would automatically mean being a threat? So why do they call the EU a Christian Club?

madanthonyayne- But many Muslims do not agree. They will not be happy until the entire world submits (the literal translation of Islam) to Islamic law.

Read, listen, watch or whatever the hell you are going to do, but educate yourself a bit more about the history of islam and then compare it with others. And please do not trnalate the word islam by yourself, are you an exper in th arabic language???

It's not a "racial" thing. I'm confused how do you relate this with race.

I hope I could express my thoughts. Sorry if I'm too harsh.

Edit: I saw your post about Ottoman Empire and realized you're Greek. I'm not a bloody ultra nationalist I like Greek people I have Greek friends and really dislike the dispute over Cyprus. Just wanted to tell what I believe about people. It's not a big deal after all.

I don't have a problem with Turkish people, I have a problem with Turkey's policies and especially their policy on Cyprus.

mindtrick, you talk about these as if they are human virtues or good merits! I'm surprised... do you think that Turkish people should leave their religion and culture just so that th Europeans feel sympathy towards them. Can't you see that the what is meant is to make a world of robotic uniform culture, uniform norms. Does being non-religious guarantee that people will be good ones and being religious would automatically mean being a threat? So why do they call the EU a Christian Club?

No my mate, you got me wrong. I use those examples for explaining how people are far from religion or conservatism. I don't mean they're virtues :) It's the truth. It's what's happening right now. You're right about cultural assimilation.

I don't have a problem with Turkish people, I have a problem with Turkey's policies and especially their policy on Cyprus.

So we have no problem :) You know what, I also don't approve Turkey's foreign policy. We don't like politicians over here.

So we have no problem You know what, I also don't approve Turkey's foreign policy. We don't like politicians over here.

Does this mean that Turks are wrong and the Greek are right? Don't forget in democratic countries it is the people who choose the politicians..

Does this mean that Turks are wrong and the Greek are right? Don't forget in democratic countries it is the people who choose the politicians..
No side is actually right. Both sides have their faults. Most people don't like politicians due to failures and empty promises. You vote, then they fail. Current government is the best of last 20 years.

No side is actually right. Both sides have their faults. Most people don't like politicians due to failures and empty promises.

The question is whether your counterpart is as ready to accept their faults as you are, and if not then what can you do? to surrender??


You vote, then they fail. Current government is the best of last 20 years.

It is an islamist government I know. So it seems islamists can do some good job if they given the chance and not obstacled. I'm so sad for Hamas, they didn't give them a chance to breathe after they were democratically elected.

The question is whether your counterpart is as ready to accept their faults as you are, and if not then what can you do? to surrender??
Nope. You've the right point. Problem is both sides are far from accepting their faults.

It is an islamist government I know. So it seems islamists can do some good job if they given the chance and not obstacled. I'm so sad for Hamas, they didn't give them a chance to breathe after they were democratically elected.
Yes, economic growth, low inflation, improvements in health services. etc. Way better than previous. I don't like how the military is bullying them with regime paranoias.

It's a time-honored method (see Biblical, American, and Israeli history): Box the human pests in, create enough desperation to set them against both their overlords and each other- When things get predictably unruly, it's time for the final solution (annihilation). For compassionate requiem we'll tisk-tisk those poor, ignoble, dead, and dispossessed savages while their ashes smoulder. Then we can toast the victors for heralding the, um... same old bloody same old. Think what you're told: Innocent victors, and savage (read Islamist these days) losers; God's on Our Side and everyone else can go to hell.

Or, we can each stand up for a better way, wherever we live, and whenever the same old crimes against humanity are dressed up and whored again.