I have a friend who is studying Sociology right now - incidentally, one of the few people I can have decent conversations with.

However, there is something that she and I are continually at odds about. When I talk with excitement about current developments in Astronomy and Space Exploration, she will usually respond with utter indifference and sometimes, argue the point that we don't even need to be spending so much money on these fields in the first place. In her opinion, the efforts that are put into carrying out these various missions could be put to better use here on this Planet.

I'm not really surprised because she is studying Sociology afterall, but I do find it hard to convince her sometimes. Of course I tell her about the importance of advancing science and our general knowledge of the Universe, but she always responds with the argument that these achievements are null if we aren't taking care of our own matters here on Earth, and to a point she *is* right I suppose.

In the end, I just tell her that space exploration is the natural progression for such an inquisitive species as ours and it is futile to argue against it (just as it would be to tell the first sea-faring peoples that there was no point in going out to explore the Ocean and the lands beyond).

Anyone come across this type of person before?

Anyone come across this type of person before?

Yeah.
ME.

I agree with her completely.

Not only do I agree with her that we would be much better off spending the time, money and other resources here, but I don't see any real point to it.
I am just as curious as teh next person, and have always been ineterested in Science, but Science, solely for the sake of Science is hardly a noble endeavor.
What have we actually gotten out of space travel?
The scientific "progress" people claim we have made because of the space program, did not require the space program at all, so could have been done for billions less, with less loss of life and with less effort.
What "advnacement" came out of space travel that could not been done without space travel (other then "advancements" that serve space travel)?
We landed on the moon for no other reason than to prove to the Russians that we have bigger dicks.

Knowledge is a good thing.
Science for the sole sake of science is impotent at best dreadfully dangerous at worst (see Nuclear Weapons).
NASA is a flagrant waste of tax-payer's money and should be disbanded.

Yeah.
ME.

I agree with her completely.

Not only do I agree with her that we would be much better off spending the time, money and other resources here, but I don't see any real point to it.
I am just as curious as teh next person, and have always been ineterested in Science, but Science, solely for the sake of Science is hardly a noble endeavor.
What have we actually gotten out of space travel?
The scientific "progress" people claim we have made because of the space program, did not require the space program at all, so could have been done for billions less, with less loss of life and with less effort.
What "advnacement" came out of space travel that could not been done without space travel (other then "advancements" that serve space travel)?
We landed on the moon for no other reason than to prove to the Russians that we have bigger dicks.

Knowledge is a good thing.
Science for the sole sake of science is impotent at best dreadfully dangerous at worst (see Nuclear Weapons).
NASA is a flagrant waste of tax-payer's money and should be disbanded.

I agree.

Space travel and exploration is the proper goal of the human race. We are too busy trying to solve problems caused by greed and ignorance, but someday we will wake up and get on with the task at hand.

One raven and samcdkey! Oh my god!

.

You have got to be kidding me!!!

The space program aside (which may save the entire biosphere from complete extinction one day by giving us the skills to avert a ten kilometer asteroid impact), pure science is the only reason science has been done for most of our history. I can't begin to list the pure science studies, with no apparent usefulness, that have given us all of the technology we have today.

While I respect you both, your statement (and agreement with it) is incredibly ignorant.

There is an apocryphal story in which Michael Faraday is demonstrating his new "dynamo" to the queen of england or something. She asks "But what is it good for?" and Faraday supposedly replies "Of what use is a new born baby?"

See my point?

I still can't believe supposedly intelligent people still hold this view of scientific endeavors.


Scientific endeavor is all very well, but when we are willing to spend more money to go to the moon than to make sure every one gets three square meals a day, we need to reconsider our thinking. Everything looks different on a full stomach.

Fucking hell.

Do you even know how little NASA's budget is? Compared to EVERYTHING ELSE? Research it. You women spend 1000 time as much per year!!! on cosmetics. God damn. You really need to google on the fallacy of this stupid argument. And you went to college???

Let's ask the world how much it spends on:

- Cat and dog treats
- Cosmetics
- Artificial fucking islands for arabe to play on
- High heel shoes
- Wars
- etc.............................. $$$$

I have an idea. Let's do what the chinese did in the 14th century. Lets stop exploring and focus on our internal problems. HAHAHAHA!!!

Nah lets starve and kill people and exploit resources so if we run out of them (oppressed people and nonrenewable resources), we can maybe kinda someday perhaps go somewhere else and do it all over again. And lets spend LOTS AND LOTS of money on the weapons and technology to do it really well.

Sam, you really don't think very deeply, do you.

You mean why don't I look 100 years into the future and ignore whats happening around me? Thats waaay too deep for me.

Why did you leave india to come to the US? Why did you even leave your cozy little hovel to go out every day? Wait, you've explored the world, right? How dare you do such a thing when you could have used that money for good elsewhere?

Irrelevant argument.

I'm not the one working for the DoD.

For one thing, there should be an international space program, but people are too idiotic, they think our proper place is grovelling to the Gods until they bless us with their holy presense and tuck us into bed with milk and cookies.

The exploration of space isn't a scientific endeavor, it's our destiny.

It wasn't an argument. It was just pointing out what a hyppocrite you are.

Don't give a rats ass.

Good. We need practical people (who take advantage of the fruits of the forward thinkers) to do the grunt work. Good for you. Now, please abandon all of your technological tools. Seriously. You are arguing for primitivism.

You think science is sucking up money to save the hungry? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

No I think scientists have an obligation to ethics. Science doesn't.

Sam, quit typing on the computer you're using, that uses power generation from somewhere, that uses a massive communications network (including hundreds of satellites) and ignore the forewarning you get of the next major flooding storm (also satellites).

NOW! You're starving some poor kid somewhere!!!

More irrelevance.

Making life better for people is completely different from space exploration.

And they are all unethical bastards. I know. It's sad. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't say that.

But they are selfish bastards, many of them.:p

You may have noticed a bit of fanaticism on my part when it comes to scientific exploration. It is my passion and I will defend it like a rabid fundamental theist. Be warned.

:crazy:

WRONG! All of human endeavor is interconnected. But you wouldn't know anything about the human need to explore and investigate. I feel sorry for you.

:sleep:

I'm going to quit this "discussion" because I really can't stand people who debate the merits of scienc and scientific exploration of any kind while they wallow blindly in the fruits of that exploration. Just like the queen of england talking to faraday about his useless dynamo, you are.

Done here.

If you read more carefully, you will realise that I am not damning all scientific endeavor, nor am I saying it should be halted or never undertaken. Just that we seem to have skewed our priorities.

For one thing, there should be an international space program, but people are too idiotic, they think our proper place is grovelling to the Gods until they bless us with their holy presense and tuck us into bed with milk and cookies.

The exploration of space isn't a scientific endeavor, it's our destiny.

I think an international space program is a good idea. We should get rid of all the nuclear weapons and collaborate. Scientists should take a stand against arms.

Yeah, it's OK, but it's budget pales in comparison to the Pentagon. There is no reason we can't build a fair society AND explore space.

Jesus! We ARE collaborating! Do you all live in caves or something? There is a robust international space program under way!

US
Russia
Europe
India
Japan

to name a few.
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/801/1:yawn:

I'm one of those anti space exploration types too. I love the thought of exploring space, I dig the National Geographic photos as much as the next schlemeil, but it isn't space exploration that is gobbling billions of dollars, it's the militarization of space. We aren't spending the big bucks for science! Or discovery. It's a vast moneypit for defense contractors, again, to bathe themselves in wealth while militarizing science.
Is it all for the cool rocks we come back with? The groovy photos?
Spend the money here on our own rock. As a species we haven't earned the luxury of space militarization. We are only as successful as our poorest. Abort NASA, bring the money HOME.

I'm still flabbergasted One raven and sam. Stunned in fact.
I'm not. I pretty much always disagree with Sam. I believe strongly in the space program, so I would naturally expect Sam to oppose it.
I'm one of those anti space exploration types too. Spend the money here on our own rock. As a species we haven't earned the luxury of space militarization. We are only as successful as our poorest. Abort NASA, bring the money HOME.
Home is a sewer down which all the money you throw at it will flow. Space is the future. It is the only real hope for mankind to survive over the long term.

It is the only real hope for mankind to survive over the long term.

Its a pretty thin hope. Might be far far better to make the known environment sustainable.

perhaps but to keep the enviroment sustainable you would have to trow most of the people of.

I'm rather dissapointed in the space program, the goals are all wrong and non ambitious. It's al very short sighted and well basicley it has to present pretty pictures to matter nobody cares for the weather satelites until their so old that they wil fall down and we won't be able to forcast the weather anymore.:(

superluminal,

I wasn't aware that humans had to travel into, explore and colonize space to launch communication satellites.
I guess I'm just an ignorant fool.

The exploration of space isn't a scientific endeavor, it's our destiny.
Ridiculous.
Even if I did believe in "destiny", which is an absurd notion, who, short of a God, would know what our destiny is?

I can't believe this. You really have no clue about what "pure" research has done for you (in addition to nuclear weapons - BTW, what about nuclear power plants, nuclear medicine, x-rays, CAT scans, NMR, etc?)



Pure research into the Medical applications of these things would have yielded the exact same results. We didn't discover them because of a space program, we discovered them despite it.

Personally I think all manned space missions should be dropped as a waste of money, and the money put into direct use to improve people's lives.

Probes, satellites and telescopes are worthwhile, but I would encourage far more international collaboration and data sharing, to prevent unnecessary replication of instruments.

You may have noticed a bit of fanaticism on my part when it comes to scientific exploration. It is my passion and I will defend it like a rabid fundamental theist. Be warned.
Exactly.
And, sadly, you seem proud of that fact.
It's really not a whole lot different than a rabid, fundamental theist, is it?
You become single-mindedly and blindly devoted to your "cause".
So much so, that you are not only convinced you are right, but that anyone who disagrees with you must be delusional and mentally handicapped, at best...

But you wouldn't know anything about the human need to explore and investigate. I feel sorry for you.


So much so that rationale and reason go out the window, and you start operating on a solely emotional level, attempting to defend your position, by attacking those who disagree with your OPINION.
I'm going to quit this "discussion" because I really can't stand people who...
I still can't believe supposedly intelligent people still hold this view of scientific endeavors.

So much for being a rational and clear-headed "scientist", huh?


There is an apocryphal story in which Michael Faraday is demonstrating his new "dynamo" to the queen of england or something. She asks "But what is it good for?" and Faraday supposedly replies "Of what use is a new born baby?"
How quaint.
Your little anecdote sounds very similar to something I heard about this woman who's daughter had cancer, but she prayed and prayed...


Damn. I've just about lost all respect for you guys.
Pathetic.
And you call yourself a scientist.

And you are proud of this behavior, are you?

It is exactly this type of religious fervor that leads me to say that science, simply for the sake of science, is impotent at best and dangerous at worst.
It is this constant push for "progress" without direction that leads us to Nuclear weapons (and by the way, Nuclear power is NOT an acceptible price to pay for Nuclear weapons, when we have other options available).

It's all in the name of "progress", right?
Always moving forward so we do not stagnate, right?
Always onward and upward, right?

You can not have "progress" without defining a goal or direction, you simply have movement, and science, can not define a goal or direction itself, that is the job of humans.
Science is our child - we either give it direction, morals and wisdom, or we let it run pampant until it kills us in our sleep.

Tell me, wise old sage of a scientist that you are, if you are standing at the edge of a cliff, which direction defines "progress"? Onward and upward?

Pure research into the Medical applications of these things would have yielded the exact same results. We didn't discover them because of a space program, we discovered them despite it.

Personally I think all manned space missions should be dropped as a waste of money, and the money put into direct use to improve people's lives.

Probes, satellites and telescopes are worthwhile, but I would encourage far more international collaboration and data sharing, to prevent unnecessary replication of instruments.

Well said.

And what does NASA and research have to do with the DoD?

Check out the development of 'Clementine' and get back to us.

Some simple questions.

1) How much of the science done throughout human history has been done with a practical goal in mind?

The vast majority. The vast majority of science has been weapons research.

2) What is different about space exploration vs the explorations of the earth undertaken throughout human history?
Cost. Most sailors were a dime a dozen, and you could pillage and plunder for food on almost any island.

4) How much mony do you all think the manned space program takes out of the budget of the US.
A pittance. The total budget for the space program (human and robotic) is less than 2/3 of one percent of the federal budget.

5) How many of you will keep advocating an international space effort (manned and unmanned) when THIS HAS BEEN IN PLACE FOR MANY YEARS NOW?
I've always been a space fanatic.

6) If all human activities could be carried out by surrogate robots, how many of you would permanently sit on your asses and never leave your multifunction robot control couch?
Not me. IMHO, the primary justification for robotic space probes is that one day humanity will follow.

8) How many of you want to stagnate yourselves and never explore beyond the walls of your hovel?

The naysayers who want their children and grandchildren to live in hovels while more farsighted nations take the high ground.

The argument against further exploration is that we cannot afford to add real world experience in science to America's repertoire, we cannot afford to add trillions of dollars to America's economy again, we cannot afford to have thousands of people working in high-paying jobs, we don't seem to even understand that while we through a few thousand tons of metal up in the sky, the money stays down here and enriches the economy (we can't afford that either.) At the same time we can afford to bomb a country into the stone age that has failed to threaten us or offend us in any way.

we cannot afford to add trillions of dollars

Then I won't ask how much of NASA's budget goes to alternatives like space elevator rechearge. (the answer is 0$ and their stance is that they wouldn't build one even if the technology is avaible but that they would use their services if someone else builds it)

And I certainly won't argue the goals in favor from projects that actualy have significant influence on the earth
http://newstandardnews.net/content/ion/index.cfm/bulletin/6072
ever heard of new orleans, want to make it worse? Sometimes I wonder how much the military budget increased afther 9/11. Now how much more did the weather forecasting get afther new orleans?

I have a friend who is studying Sociology right now - incidentally, one of the few people I can have decent conversations with.

However, there is something that she and I are continually at odds about. When I talk with excitement about current developments in Astronomy and Space Exploration, she will usually respond with utter indifference and sometimes, argue the point that we don't even need to be spending so much money on these fields in the first place. In her opinion, the efforts that are put into carrying out these various missions could be put to better use here on this Planet.

Anyone come across this type of person before?

unfortunately these are the narrowtimeminded individuals I fear the most...
Surrounded by them all, its tough to get a point across.