Ok, this is (admittedly) a barrel of monkeys. I foresee this disintegrating into a slugfest by post #22. With that in mind, I will beg a moderator to lock this thread at that point, or move it to Pseudoscience where (I'm sure) it will fit right in, eventually Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! http://www.arabtimesonline.com/client/pagesdetails.asp?nid=28063&ccid=18 I know members of both of these organizations, and I wouldn't class them as "Zionists" at all. The members of these organizations which I know are much more interested in doing community service in America, than pushing some "Zionist" agenda. (As an aside, even if this WERE the case, I fail to see how it's any different than all of the "charity" organizations in the US and Europe that send money to terrorists.) I also remember reading this paper: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy a few years ago and being surprised at the language and conclusions, although I don't really recall what they are. So, the question: is there a Zionist Lobby in America, and how strong is it? Is the support of Israel by America due to some deep conspiracy, or is it nothing more than politics---i.e. having a friend in an unfriendly place?
Yes, there is a Zionist lobby in the US and no there is nothing illegal, sinister or conspiratorial about it. And yes, it has a significant role to play in American support for Israel. Its as American as apple pie to have lobbies for your group of interest and work to maximise their benefits. While I have heard that there has been some criticism of their conclusions, Mersheimer and Walts study of the Israel Lobby in the US is one of the best resources available to expand your knowledge on their influence. This is the article they were contracted to write by The Atlantic Monthly in 2002, which subsequently rejected it, it was published by the London Review of Books after a significant gap, in 2006. In the meanwhile, they collated and published their findings as a book. What makes the book interesting to me is that the authors are both sympathetic to Israel.
That there's a (large) fraction of people sympathetic to Israel in America is no real mystery. I want to know how far reaching some people think it is---for example, the FUU seem to think that it reaches into the community group level.
Based on what? The Rotary Club? Since I have never been a member of any of these or know much about them, I could not give an opinion on this.
From the first link: "The People's Ulema Forum (FUU) said the clubs were 'infidel' fronts for Freemasonry..." What's wrong with Freemasonry?
I found it. Its a borrowed conspiracy More http://www.slate.com/id/2145486 In my defence, I've never heard of this before. Glory to teh internet, I suppose.
These bodies do fantastic charity work, I think however that the Indonesians would see them as a "Western/US" influence, and we all know how much damage Bush did to the US image. There is an extremely powerful Zionist lobby at work in the US, and the inference is political and geostrategic. Its really a proxy US state in the ME. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
No expansion of knowledge on the topic would be complete without also reading Walter Russell Mead's exocriating review of Mersheimer and Walts, available from Foreign Affairs at: http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20071101fareviewessay86611/walter-russell-mead/jerusalem-syndrome.html Likewise, Martin Gross's, commentary on the previous FA review of the M&W book: http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20070101faletter86165/martin-gross/the-israel-lobby.html And, last but not least, is Mead's rebuttal article, also from Foreign Affairs: http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20080...-russell-mead/the-new-israel-and-the-old.html
I've read Mead's article. Seems to me its hard to separate the effects of the Zionist lobby in the Americanisation of Jews, from the support they enjoy from mainstream Americans. I've addressed this elsewhere in a response to Tyler. Its simplistic to talk about American support for Israel without questioning what happened to the antisemitism that turned away the St Louis during the holocaust. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism_in_the_United_States
??? And it is obtuse to avoid stating the obvious answer: the Civil Rights movement. Or is the Jewish Lobby also the explanation for the end of Jim Crow, liberalization of immigration laws, etc.? Also, the St. Louis incident occurred in 1939, at which point the Holocaust was just getting into full swing. It was not until years later that the facts of what happened became widely known, and so had a chance to affect American sentiment (which they did, radically).
You see unlike many other western countries India's definition of freedom of assembly is not nearly as supportive as one is lead to believe
Hmm because Americans care so deeply for people being starved and tortured and killed in other countries. Right?
When the people involved are white, and the countries are in Europe, certainly. The historical record is mixed in cases that do not meet both those criteria.
Which is why it was necessary to make Jews both "white" and "European". http://www.amazon.com/Became-White-Folks-About-America/dp/081352590X
The Jews in question were already European, and had been for hundreds of years. There couldn't have been any Holocaust otherwise. Not sure how one "makes" the Jews white. It seems a bit ridiculous to presume that there is some discrete author of a mass social phenomenon. And I'd also note that, having assimilated large numbers of non-WASP peoples by that point, the term "white" already meant little more than "of European descent, and with light skin." Ironically, the Jews are perhaps the only such people that are still NOT considered fully "white" in the United States. So perhaps Christianity is important here too...
There was a time when Jews were not considered white at all, if the author of the previously linked book is to be believed. The making of Jews into "dem white folks" is the difference the Zionist lobby has made to their social standing, which is all to their credit And while Jews may have been European, they were still more Jewish than "white" in identity, at least in the early 1900s New York Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Or even 1944 Florida Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
