What many of you do not understand about the United States is that it is more than a country. It is an idea, an idea that men regardless of color, regardless of religion, regardless of belief can live together in peace and prosper not just for now, but for always.

Do we have problems, certianly. Do we make mistakes, absoutely! Do we get knocked to our knees, without question. But will we stop? Will we be cowed into submission? Never!

We are like that crippled patient who struggles every day to overcome his physical limitations. We will never struggling, we will never stop trying.

And so are so many other democratic countries. Does australia look like a picture perfect nation ? We are struggling to give proper consideration to our Aboriginal citizens, for over a century now. I think you aren't talking just about the USA. You seem to be talking about democracy in general. But, pray, tell me what is this idea that is so exclusive to the USA ?

The problem is not that you have a problem, every country has one or the other. The problem is you tend to cause problems while pretending to be perfect. That hypocrisy is why a lot hate you. That, and your foreign policy tends to cost a lot of lives.

But America is being destroyed from within. There are those that are greedy and want everything for themselves, as most egotistical people are. Those that run businesses in America only want profits nothing more. They only want to take and not give. Look at the oil companies now, they made hundreds of billions of dollars in excess profits from the sale of overpriced gas for Americans and nothing is being done to stop this from going on. America isn't what it used to be with more compassionate presidents running companies or legislators like before. America stood for the little guy before but now it stands on top of them pushing them lower under the foot of "democracy".

Is it truly just that ? You guys had prestige and a good rep before some idiot took charge.

Democracy = mob rule.
That's not what America was founded on.

It was founded on the two laws the that all faiths share in common.
1. Do all you agree to do.
2. Don't encroach on others (property or otherwise)

These two laws are essential to survival in society and nature. Our government has ignored them for too long and instead champion democracy.

Is it truly just that ? You guys had prestige and a good rep before some idiot took charge.

It is the businesses that now run America as well as the military to a big extent.

And so are so many other democratic countries. Does australia look like a picture perfect nation ? We are struggling to give proper consideration to our Aboriginal citizens, for over a century now. I think you aren't talking just about the USA. You seem to be talking about democracy in general. But, pray, tell me what is this idea that is so exclusive to the USA ?

The problem is not that you have a problem, every country has one or the other. The problem is you tend to cause problems while pretending to be perfect. That hypocrisy is why a lot hate you. That, and your foreign policy tends to cost a lot of lives.

That was my point Challenger. The founders of the United States intended to form a more perfect union, and that more perfect union is a work in progress. It is not exclusive to the United States. But at the time the United States was founded it was unique.

The United States could be wiped off the map today or tommorow, but the ideas upon which the country was founded will not be wiped from the hearts of men.

As I said, we do make mistakes. All of the critisims that have been made in this thread are valid. But those are not reasons for stoping the quest for a more perfect union.

What many of you do not understand about the United States is that it is more than a country. It is an idea, an idea that men regardless of color, regardless of religion, regardless of belief can live together in peace and prosper not just for now, but for always.

Do we have problems, certianly. Do we make mistakes, absoutely! Do we get knocked to our knees, without question. But will we stop? Will we be cowed into submission? Never!

We are like that crippled patient who struggles every day to overcome his physical limitations. We will never struggling, we will never stop trying.

certainly in the past, many countries looked up to and envied the freedoms citizens of the USA had - these days its very different - most western democracies are in many ways considerably free-er societies than the USA in a real sense - certainly they are no less free.
So when we hear american rhetoric about them saving the world for thier brand of freedom - what we hear is simply hypocracy - sorry!

I'll give you an example - the US higher education and health system can often shackle people with huge debts - often before they even start their careers - how is it possible to be truly free if you are in debt bondage?

Another example - despite what you say, race and colour are still a VERY big deal in the USA - not so much in Britain (we still have our problems of course) - I have experienced this at first hand both when in the states and when I have worked with american students of colour studying here in the UK - a good example of this was when Will Smith did the chat show circuit in the UK. On the same show was a black newsreader - Will was like "Right on! a black news reader on the main daily news show on the BBC" the host was like "yeah? so what? this guy has been a mainstay of the 9 oclock news since the 1970's - its really not a big deal for us"

Then of course there's all this paranoia about international terrorism that seems to be the conerstone of american foreign and domestic policy these days - in reality of course the whole threat is incredibly overplayed and largely a complete illusion.
The rest of the world has figured out that the tiny threat that does exist won't bring about the destruction of our societies or their institutions and that we shouldn't be overreacting to it (our governments haven't quite got the message yet though) - not so for the USA. If they could keep this paranoia inside their own borders then fair enough, it wouldn't be our business - but of course that's not the case.

Don't get me wrong - I like most of the Americans I've met, but they tend to be over emotional, over-sentimental, and have an unhealthy respect for authority and their government that we just don't understand - they beleive their own hype when the rest of the world sees through it.
You're a young nation though and I look forward to the day when you grow up

certainly in the past, many countries looked up to and envied the freedoms citizens of the USA had - these days its very different - most western democracies are in many ways considerably free-er societies than the USA in a real sense - certainly they are no less free.
So when we hear american rhetoric about them saving the world for thier brand of freedom - what we hear is simply hypocracy - sorry!

I'll give you an example - the US higher education and health system can often shackle people with huge debts - often before they even start their careers - how is it possible to be truly free if you are in debt bondage?

Another example - despite what you say, race and colour are still a VERY big deal in the USA - not so much in Britain (we still have our problems of course) - I have experienced this at first hand both when in the states and when I have worked with american students of colour studying here in the UK - a good example of this was when Will Smith did the chat show circuit in the UK. On the same show was a black newsreader - Will was like "Right on! a black news reader on the main daily news show on the BBC" the host was like "yeah? so what? this guy has been a mainstay of the 9 oclock news since the 1970's - its really not a big deal for us"

Then of course there's all this paranoia about international terrorism that seems to be the conerstone of american foreign and domestic policy these days - in reality of course the whole threat is incredibly overplayed and largely a complete illusion.
The rest of the world has figured out that the tiny threat that does exist won't bring about the destruction of our societies or their institutions and that we shouldn't be overreacting to it (our governments haven't quite got the message yet though) - not so for the USA. If they could keep this paranoia inside their own borders then fair enough, it wouldn't be our business - but of course that's not the case.

Don't get me wrong - I like most of the Americans I've met, but they tend to be over emotional, over-sentimental, and have an unhealthy respect for authority and their government that we just don't understand - they beleive their own hype when the rest of the world sees through it.
You're a young nation though and I look forward to the day when you grow up


And I don't disagree with word you said. I too look forward to the day we grow up. In many ways and most respects European and other democracies are more democratic than we are in the United States...but we keep trying. At this point, we are behind, very behind.

What many of you do not understand about the United States is that it is more than a country. It is an idea, an idea that men regardless of color, regardless of religion, regardless of belief can live together in peace and prosper not just for now, but for always.
That idea places you in the middle of american history. Not at the beginning, where race did exclude, generally, equal rights and, not more recently since women now have equal rights. OK. Just being petty with the latter point. I am sure you included women in 'men'. But still you are mythologizing the US, it had a good 80 years of slavery where race was an issue.

Further your description above could be a description of Rome's self image, back when it was an Empire. A self-image that probably was not shared by many of its neighbors.

Sowhatifit's that is were you are wrong. The founding fathers were progressive. You cannot jump for the 18th century belief systems to the 21st century belief systems...it is a progression. In 1776 the foundations for that transition was set in place. The belief in freedom and the worth of the individual is embeded in the Declaration of Independence and in the Preemble of our Consitution.
How those principals have been applied and how they have grown to fruition is history. And you know what, we still have not achieved those goals. There are still folks today who will not vote for Hillary or Obama because one is a woman and the other is a of mixed race. On the Great Seal, the words "a new order" in latin are plainly stated. Our founding fathers intended to form a new more perfect order. Notice, I did not say perfect. They laid the foundations. Change in the hearts and minds of humans is not an easy thing...just look at the current state of the election in the United States.

What many of you do not understand about the United States is that it is more than a country. It is an idea, an idea that men regardless of color, regardless of religion, regardless of belief can live together in peace and prosper not just for now, but for always.

Do we have problems, certianly. Do we make mistakes, absoutely! Do we get knocked to our knees, without question. But will we stop? Will we be cowed into submission? Never!

We are like that crippled patient who struggles every day to overcome his physical limitations. We will never struggling, we will never stop trying.

you are talking about America the land of the brave and the land of the free?

(your so funny)

you are talking about America the land of the brave and the land of the free?

(your so funny)

Well we are not so free or brave these days. But we are trying...some of us are anyway.


That is why I say, don't confuse The United States with the Ideas upon which the country was founded. Hopefully others can learn from our mistakes. Hopefully, we can learn from our mistakes. But given what I am seeing in this election, it may be too late for us.

But in any case, the great experiment must continue. Will man be able to achieve the goals laid out by our founding fathers? Are we worthy of those goals? Time will tell.

Sowhatifit's that is were you are wrong. The founding fathers were progressive.
I never said they weren't. I never mentioned them at all. Nor did I mention that a number of them owned slaves. I did point out, however, that the US has not always regarded all races are having equal rights. In fact a strong argument can be made for saying that officially it did not do this until the 1960's.


You cannot jump for the 18th century belief systems to the 21st century belief systems...it is a progression. In 1776 the foundations for that transition was set in place. The belief in freedom and the worth of the individual is embeded in the Declaration of Independence and in the Preemble of our Consitution.

Sure. But when you speak about the US as if its timeless idea included racial equality it is misleading in the extreme.
How those principals have been applied and how they have grown to fruition is history. And you know what, we still have not achieved those goals. There are still folks today who will not vote for Hillary or Obama because one is a woman and the other is a of mixed race. On the Great Seal, the words "a new order" in latin are plainly stated. Our founding fathers intended to form a new more perfect order. Notice, I did not say perfect. They laid the foundations. Change in the hearts and minds of humans is not an easy thing...just look at the current state of the election in the United States.

I agree with you in some ways. I just think you were romanticizing the US. Now we are talking about 'the founders'. Yes, they were better in many ways than leaders in other countries. But I don't think it helps to romanticize countries, even flexible romanticizing like you engage in above. And the ideals for how we treat and think of our own citizens has not matched the way we treat citizens of other countries. I think national self-images should be humbled, frankly. Especially in international forums.

You also keep talking about 'we' this 'we' that. I do not experience a 'we'.

I am not trying to idealize the country. However, I am trying show the other side of the United States that does not get much play these days. There is the country and there are the ideas upon which it was founded. How we live and practice those ideas is another story, and in the recent decade a story that is very lacking.

I love the USA. It has its problems, but its kind of like those annoying things you don't like about your parents, but that doesn't change your relationship.