Answer this riddle, and tr not to use the term "free will":

THE RIDDLE OF EPICURUS
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?


I had the misfortune of going to go see the movie "Bruce Almighty" last year and wasteing a couple of hours and bucks, and upon exiting the theater I heard a couple of old hags behind me croaking about "how true it was to the real god" and "that is what it is really like" and "people can't wait on god to solve all their problams" and barf, blag, blarg ad nauseam.

So me question wa one I came out of that flcik was "why can't people understand what the word 'omnipotence' means?"
If Jim Carrey had all of God's power then he would have known everything at once and he wouldn't have trouble answering all the prayers in the world. It infallible means that nothing can go wrong...tons of shit went wrong in that movie, number one was making it...
Well, I can gripe all day, let me know what you guys think.

-ZERO MASS

He is able, but not willing...yet. Logic flaw...this does not mean that He is malevolent.

To teach a child right from wrong is not malevolent. To shelter a child from any knowledge of wrong is to avoid teaching them altogether. Even a parent can not force love or respect or a relationship with a child...the child is given knowledge and a choice, and the parent must earn it. God wants communion with His children...voluntary and with shared knowledge...in honesty and truth. He does not want us to be blind puppets...slaves of ignorance.

For as much trouble as I have been through in my life...all of the disappointment, the heartbreak, the loneliness, sickness, pain, fear, confusion, times of absolute hopelessness, and when the pain of this life was all I could see and feel...I would go back and do it all over again...and again, and again....I would go through so much worse than I've ever had it before...if that's what it took to get me here where I am today...in the comfort, peace, and joy of His love and His blessing...to know Him has made it all so very worth while...every last excruciating minute of it. I'd do it all again in a heartbeat...just so I could know what I know now. I'm very grateful for having been through it, and for learning what I've learned. He kept me through it all, and He has taught me so much...and He has healed my broken heart, redeemed me, and restored my life. I am eternally grateful to Him.

Love,

Lori

He is able, but not willing...yet. Logic flaw...this does not mean that He is malevolent.

Take this for an example, I know there are five men outside that are going to beat you to death. You say goodbye and get your car keys. I say nothing. My inaction is malevolent as it results in pain. god refueses to do something about the evil of the world, hence he is malevoent or non-existant.

God wants communion with His children...voluntary and with shared knowledge...in honesty and truth. He does not want us to be blind puppets...slaves of ignorance.

Yes, the idea of free-will. It is wonderful isn't it? Well, your explanation is a good attempt to answer this very large riddle, but it falls short in my opinion. What about things that are out of a person's control? What about a bomb dropping on your head? What about cancer? What does your god have to say abbout that?

For as much trouble as I have been through in my life...all of the disappointment, the heartbreak, the loneliness, sickness, pain, fear, confusion, times of absolute hopelessness, and when the pain of this life was all I could see and feel...I would go back and do it all over again...and again, and again....I would go through so much worse than I've ever had it before...if that's what it took to get me here where I am today...in the comfort, peace, and joy of His love and His blessing...to know Him has made it all so very worth while...every last excruciating minute of it. I'd do it all again in a heartbeat...just so I could know what I know now.

Hey, I am sorry to break it to you, but people have had it a lot worse in the course of human events, nomatter what rocky path you had to walk down. You wouldn't be talking like that if you country were invaded, your father shot dead, if you have ever faced starvation, or mass murder, or pestilence, all things that one cannot account for other than cruelty from god if one does exist.
Understand that while the rough knocks you have taken in your life seem significant, it is because you haven't had anything bad enough happen to in order to really make you think about "sickness, pain, and fear" as a serious threat. It depresses me that you can't think outside of the experiences of your own life. Read a serious article about what is going on in Darfur right now, and tell me there is a god.

-ZERO MASS

I've always loved this conundrum from Bertrand Russell's An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish:
There are logical difficulties in the notion of sin. We are told that sin consists in disobedience to God's commands, but we are also told that God is omnipotent. If He is, nothing contrary to His will can occur; therefore when the sinner disobeys His commands, He must have intended this to happen. St. Augustine boldly accepts this view, and asserts that men are led to sin by a blindness with which God afflicts them. But most theologians, in modern times, have felt that, if God causes men to sin, it is not fair to send them to hell for what they cannot help. We are told that sin consists in acting contrary to God's will. This, however, does not get rid of the difficulty. Those who, like Spinoza, take God's omnipotence seriously, deduce that there can be no such thing as sin. This leads to frightful results. What! said Spinoza's contemporaries, was it not wicked of Nero to murder his mother? Was it not wicked of Adam to eat the apple? Is one action just as good as another? Spinoza wriggles, but does not find any satisfactory answer. If everything happens in accordance with God's will, God must have wanted Nero to murder his mother; therefore, since God is good, the murder must have been a good thing. From this argument there is no escape.

http://www.luminary.us/russell/intellectual_rubbish.html

Take this for an example, I know there are five men outside that are going to beat you to death. You say goodbye and get your car keys. I say nothing. My inaction is malevolent as it results in pain. god refueses to do something about the evil of the world, hence he is malevoent or non-existant.

Who says that He says nothing? He says "don't go outside." God has protected me over and over again. There is no way that I should be alive and typing this right now, and yet I am. God's Word is there...He is there. You choose not to believe it...you choose not to have a relationship with Him. He is there screaming at you not to go outside, and you get your keys and turn and walk out the door anyway saying "I can't hear you...you don't exist...I don't believe you."



Yes, the idea of free-will. It is wonderful isn't it? Well, your explanation is a good attempt to answer this very large riddle, but it falls short in my opinion. What about things that are out of a person's control? What about a bomb dropping on your head? What about cancer? What does your god have to say abbout that?

He says that the wages of sin is death and all of the suffering that goes along with it. If there were no sin in the world, there would be no cancer and no bombs.



Hey, I am sorry to break it to you, but people have had it a lot worse in the course of human events, nomatter what rocky path you had to walk down. You wouldn't be talking like that if you country were invaded, your father shot dead, if you have ever faced starvation, or mass murder, or pestilence, all things that one cannot account for other than cruelty from god if one does exist.
Understand that while the rough knocks you have taken in your life seem significant, it is because you haven't had anything bad enough happen to in order to really make you think about "sickness, pain, and fear" as a serious threat. It depresses me that you can't think outside of the experiences of your own life. Read a serious article about what is going on in Darfur right now, and tell me there is a god.

It depresses me that you are so cold and judgemental. You know absolutely nothing, and I mean nothing about my life...nothing. Who said that I don't think about the experiences outside my own life you condescending pos? I hate this world...it's brutal and horrifying. So much so that for the majority of my life, I've wished that I didn't have to live in it. I would have considered death a relief, but could not kill myself..only because of Him. The consequences of sin in this world are horrifying...sickness, suffering, violence, and death. And that is why I seek an eternal life without it, and have found it in Christ. And as I said, my relationship with Him makes this life worth while...even joyful and peaceful in the midst of insanity and calamity. I pity you because this is all that you can see...this is the end of the road for you...all that there is. I see so much more...that the road goes on forever...and that all of this will pass. So let it burn...and the sooner the better. And I'll gladly leave this tainted body to death...because I know that I am an eternal spirit, and that this world and this body is only a step along the way. You think it's all that there is...you poor, blind man. If this is all you want, this is all you will get...that is free will.

Love,

Lori

Who says that He says nothing? He says "don't go outside." God has protected me over and over again.

Then why can I walk outside happy, without a care in the world and not suspecting anything, and then have something horrible happen to me to my great detriment. No warning; not even a twinge of anxiety. Would it be that god just chooses not to talk?

On the other side of the coin, I can get that twinge of anxiety, but nothing happens should I obey it or not. Sometimes you just get these sorts of thing for no reason. Sometimes bad things happen to me because I follow it. Is god just pulling my chain for his own amusement?


Heh. Why should our short and petty lives matter enough to a being who sees worlds flash into existence and then die in a relative instant. A human living 100 years or 10 would make little difference to a being who measures time by the rotation of the galaxy. And that is if he even exists.

On that scale, good and evil cease to have any personal meaning. A planet may have some meaning. A species may have some meaning. Even a culture may have some meaning. But an individual only matters as far as it affects the greater universe.

lori you are the very cold and judgemental one, you dismiss without any thought all the countless deaths from all sorts of reason as if they were nothing.
if you so keen to shed yhis mortal coil then, goodbye.
then we would need to listen to your callous words.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
There is merely reality; 'good' or 'evil' are imposed perspectives. It is in the first place a distinction made by God, whom we follow in making that distinction.

So we are indebted to God for being able to see that there is indeed evil in the world, for empowering us to do something about it and separate ourselves from it before it is destroyed. We have ourselves as guideline (the golden rule) and we have God as a guideline (the moral imperative).

This is where it intersects: God is able and willing - but we are unable and unwilling. Do we accept God's judgment of evil? No: we tend to think the total abolishment and punishment of evil is also evil. We don't want hell. Do we accept God's willingness to do something about it? No, we are unwilling to let our freedom be ruled by any but ourselves. We rejected his warnings, laws, and even his method of salvation.

People are content with making the distinction and setting ourselves up above God. We are content with evil. We wield this knowledge like a sword, as if we made it ourselves.

Romans 9:22-23 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory...
God's patience with evil means salvation (2 Pet. 3) - it is not an endorsement of it. Remember what we're asking for: final judgment. Are we so sure we are untainted by evil - not only in your own eyes, but also in the eyes of God who judges it?

Everytime God has shown that He does something about it, we complained. It's just too uncomfortable to feel His anger burning our own hides. That's why we're unwilling to be judged - even while we wait for judgment.

There are two things I wish to post:
1) Lies only exist to hide the truth.
2) Evil exists only because we allow it to.

The world could be free of evil in very little time if we all genuinely wanted it to be so.

To take the religious perspective:

The second book of the bible was all about the love and justice of that which is God. It suggests even if just in poetry that to love one another is the key to the erradication of evil. Now this book was written 2000 years ago.....yep...2000 year ago.

To take a humanistic perspective:

The Charter of human rights were created and endorsed over 50 years ago....yep that's 50 years ago.......

Take a older religious perspective:

How long ago was the ten comandments handed down.....hmmmmm...5000 years ago maybe....yep....5000 years ago.

The legal perspective:

Laws are in place have been for ages...yep have been for ages...

So tell me ...why does evil exist?

The answer is ...simply because that is what we have chosen and continue to choose to allow to exist.

The answer is not in "Gods'" hands but our own.....

Evil is not Gods responsibility it is ours and ours alone....every one of us....

Every time you ignore someones plight, every time you get a buzz out of seeing someone bleed, everytime you profit from someone elses misery you are choosing to allow evil to exist....
end of story and end of rant

God is able, willing and doing. The problem (or key) is balance. Evil exists only in the human mind, because he has fallen from the divine oneness to the world of separation. Now he must combine every two opposite to create balance. Man's nature is to search the good and avoid the bad, but God's nature is to make no difference between them. The evil is as important as the good, because without it we are not able to know what good is, since the only good is balance. Things depend on what we think of them and how we use them, that decides if they are evil or good.

The created world is like a tree: To left it bears evil (negative) fruits and to right it bears good (positive) fruits. But both of them come from the same stem, from the same one-ness. Only by separating, good and evil is born from the one-ness, which is not good or evil, but divine. Only by separating, information is possible. From this comes the consequence that the world consists of good and evil, but without this separation, creation is not possible.

Nothing can push aside God, he must always exist. This makes him omnipresent. God is the unity, he can't be separated. Even so, he created the world of separation, he sent two images of himself to reflect him, and these opposites keep searching the unification forever and ever. God knows everything, and suffering is the best way to lead man to the truth. God doesn't think like we do, he doesn't favor the good people more than the evil. God respects our free will. We wouldn't be free if he once again took us to the paradise. But we will come there, by our free will and by the guidance of God.

The evil is as important as the good, because without it we are not able to know what good is,
Yorda, maybe this should read:
The evil WAS as important as the good, because without it we WERE not able to know what good is,

God must have wanted evil to be; therefore, since God is good, the evil must have been a good thing. From this argument there is no escape.
what free will and suffering is never the best of anything.

If God exists, and he created mankind to have free will, then his interfering in our day to day affairs would take away our free will. If he prevents us from doing evil, he is defeating the purpose for creating us, which I guess would be to see if we can be good of our own free will and prove worthy to one day enter his kingdom.

OR...

Maybe it's like his own personal soap opera.. I mean, being God must get boring don't ya think? If you are omnipotent then you know everything that is, was and will be.. Kinda make for a dull day.. Maybe this would help to explain why he would give mankind free will. So that he WON'T know exactly what is going to happen. He's just entertaining himself by monitoring us.

Let's take my dog for instance. I don't follow him around and wait for him to make a stinky on the floor.... I hide and then beat the hell out of him with kitchen utensils and latex devices! err... RELAX! I'M JOKING! :)

Romans 9:22-23 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory...


Out of curiosity, what is your position on the meaning of these verses? I'm fairly certain you're aware of their possible "Calvinistic" interpretation. Do you believe God has predestined some for damnation and others for salvation?

If I had to guess, I'd say you don't believe this, but I'm curious. Just wondering how you interpret these verses.

Also, I don't quite understand how tolerating "objects of his wrath" made the "riches of his glory" known to the objects of his mercy. Because he is very patient with evil (done by those prepared for destruction, which to me could imply a Calvinistic slant to this verse), that makes the riches of God's glory known to the saved? How would it be glorious to be patient with evil if you've prepared those vessels for wrath in the first place? And how would God being very patient with "objects of his wrath" be a glorious thing, if there's an eternal hell? Being patient with those "objects of his wrath" would be pretty much meaningless to me, if they were truly the objects of his wrath. I see two distinct groups being talked about here. If that is what the author is saying, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Sure, you can say I'm doing a "Why, why, why, Why is there air?" But, this IS a general discussion forum for religion, isn't it? So, I think I'm allowed to ask questions. If people ask me questions, I can choose to try to answer them or not. And others may do the same.

It's just too uncomfortable to feel His anger burning our own hides.

This burning sensation could also be caused from too much sitting by those with a problem with their Pudendal Nerve. ;)

...opens can of worms...


THE RIDDLE OF EPICURUS
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

Perhaps, and this is only a thought, perhaps He is malevolent?

I've always loved this conundrum from Bertrand Russell's An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish:
There are logical difficulties in the notion of sin. We are told that sin consists in disobedience to God's commands, but we are also told that God is omnipotent. If He is, nothing contrary to His will can occur; therefore when the sinner disobeys His commands, He must have intended this to happen. St. Augustine boldly accepts this view, and asserts that men are led to sin by a blindness with which God afflicts them. But most theologians, in modern times, have felt that, if God causes men to sin, it is not fair to send them to hell for what they cannot help. We are told that sin consists in acting contrary to God's will. This, however, does not get rid of the difficulty. Those who, like Spinoza, take God's omnipotence seriously, deduce that there can be no such thing as sin. This leads to frightful results. What! said Spinoza's contemporaries, was it not wicked of Nero to murder his mother? Was it not wicked of Adam to eat the apple? Is one action just as good as another? Spinoza wriggles, but does not find any satisfactory answer. If everything happens in accordance with God's will, God must have wanted Nero to murder his mother; therefore, since God is good, the murder must have been a good thing. From this argument there is no escape.

http://www.luminary.us/russell/intellectual_rubbish.html


Sin is a transgression of law which causes a negative consequence. It is more than just an act though...it is a condition. The condition of man since the fall. An inherent affliction of the flesh that perpetuates...guarantees actually, that sin occurs. And yea, man is born with this condition and dies with it as well, no matter what. All men sin, and it is true that they can not remedy this state that they are in, and their works, as hard as they may try to remain righteous, will surely be tainted with it. That is not to say that you do not have choices in this life, or that you have no cognition or responsibility in regards to your actions. In this life, you try your best, and there is value in that. And there is value in learning from mistakes. And there is value in learning from what we know to be the horrible consequence of sin. We can realize too that we can not remedy our "condition" ourselves, no matter how hard we try...that being the most valuable lesson of all.

Yes, God knew that we would fall into this state, and allowed for it. For the purpose of experience...to gain knowledge...so that we may know the difference...and decide for ourselves.

God does not send men to hell for what they can not help. Hell is not a place of punishment for sins committed. It is a place that is void of God and His Spirit for those who chose to deny Him or reject Him. Some people unfortunately choose not to learn from this life. You could say that there is a hell on earth...to a degree. On earth, you experience good and evil. You live through it, see it, hear it, taste it, feel it, live it. And if you choose to learn the truth, you may understand it, and make a choice as to what you want for all of eternity. For in the spiritual realm, good and evil are not together and intermingled as they are here, but are separate. The Kingdom of God is without sin...hell is without God. So you live, and you choose.

Sin and it's effect is horrible...violent...bloody...deadly. That is what God wants us to know, so that we may choose to turn from it, and to live with Him and without it eternally. You can not have both sin and eternal life, because the consequence of sin is death.

Jesus Christ is the answer...only God can remedy us...redeem us...restore us...for it is He who created us..and all that there is...and nothing is impossible with Him. And in the meantime, He can be there with us, as He is with me...if you want Him to be. He is a provider, protector, comforter, counselor, a best friend, and a loving father. And He can be there for you and see you through til it's time for you to go...no matter what your circumstance may be. He was there with me when I was frightened and in jail...He was there for me while I was emotionally devastated by a divorce...He was there with Daniel in the lion's den...and He was there with Jesus on the cross. He can be there for you too, but you have to want Him to be. You can deny Him...you can not get to know Him and yet hate Him and reject Him...or you can get to know Him and then decide. I personally would suggest the latter.

Love,

Lori

lori you are the very cold and judgemental one, you dismiss without any thought all the countless deaths from all sorts of reason as if they were nothing.
if you so keen to shed yhis mortal coil then, goodbye.
then we would need to listen to your callous words.


Direct quote, "the consequences of sin in this world are horrifying." Do you know what the word horrifying means? If I were not compassionate, I would not find it horrifying now would I? Everyone dies misty. You will shed this mortal coil as well...the question is, then what?

You call me callous? You welcome my death so that you don't have to read my words? Not because I'm moving on to a better place, but for your own selfish reasons. That's real nice...you're a regular Mother Theresa.

My point which you entirely missed is that yes indeed, death and the suffering that goes with it is horrible. This is the consequence of sin...the fallen nature of this flesh. But I offer that this flesh is not all there is...this life is a step along the way. Our flesh is mortal in this life, but our spirits are not....they are eternal. For flesh to be eternal as well, it must exist without sin. It is God's will that this is learned, and not forced behaviour...it is a choice.

Love,

Lori

sin is not a transgression of law, it's a trangression of your gods law, but what of the non-religious who have not sinned, they die for no reason, this is not the consequences of sin, none of these people will have flesh eternal, but they exist without sin.

as an extreme example of how we allow evil to exist::

A Stargate episode shown last night depicts a race by aliens with the winner being awarded lucrative contracts.

The SG7 team want to have access to advanced technologies so they make a deal with one of the race participants that allows them access to the technologies without the consent of the owner of that technology.

To the Star Gate team this is fair an reasonable to acheive the technology with out paying for it. To go and in an underhanded way steal the technology and yet consider it to be a fair thing to do.

OK so ask the question again, why does evil exist? Because a lot of it is what we actually want....when it is to our advantage, thus profiting from evil yet when the profits of evil go to someone else we bitch and whine about how God allows evil in the world......ha......maybe one day humanity will grow up and learn that evil or wrong in any form comes back and bites them on the bum. :)
Make any pact with the 'devil' and you pay a price, and it is usually a heavy price....but don't whinge when it come your turn to pay because that is what you wanted.....afterall.

WE all know for example that to educate the worlds children and provide basic life supports we would achieve a healthier world. But no....cost too much....hey?

But I would suggest that the cost of not educating and nuturing our children properly is a real stinkfest.

So when you drive around in your fancy car to your fancy house you have to keep looking over your shoulder as the guys from Ethiopia are coming to take them away from you. Or the schizophrenic kills 10 people in a supermarket simply because we haven't provided appropriate care....not enough hospital beds etc....

The thing is we have the ability to solve nearly all our problems but choose not to, thus pay the price.....so do you want God to come along and make that choice for you?
I bet your answer would be no......If God asked you whether you wanted it all made right and take away your choice to do wrong if you so wish.

You would say "No way are you telling me what to do!!"
"if I want to do the wrong thing then it is my choice" you would say...

So the only solution is for all of us to get our heads out of the sand and realise the cost of having that freedom to choose. Freewill comes with a responsibility...does it not?

Yorda, maybe this should read:
The evil WAS as important as the good, because without it we WERE not able to know what good is,

...I don't think so...

THE RIDDLE OF EPICURUS
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

or maybe he just doesnt exist. ;)

if god created all people then he obviously made some evil.

www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/index.html

if god made universe/nature then natural disasters in which inocent people die would mean God is evil.


since I dont believe in gods,everything is as it should be,the strongest survive,the weak die,its just natures way.
if the weakest didnt die,the world would become overpopulated and everyone would soon starve and die anyway.

He is able, but not willing...yet. Logic flaw...this does not mean that He is malevolent.

To teach a child right from wrong is not malevolent.
to kill all people including children, such as in a worldwide flood is not bad :rolleyes: then?
what will they learn when they are DEAD!

to kill all people including children, such as in a worldwide flood is not bad :rolleyes: then?
what will they learn when they are DEAD!

That's basically how I see some of the actions of the "God of the Bible", also. Killing people is not "teaching them a lesson", unless one has a contorted theological view, in my opinion. I fail to see how killing children or those in the womb as being the corrective measure of a loving deity. If he is really omnipotent, he doesn't need to order the slaughter of all of a town's inhabitants, or kill everyone by a flood, he could dole out his justice individually. Some of the actions of the "God of the Bible" don't seem to be actions of an omnipotent deity who can dole out justice individually, or one who is willing to do so. Unless, of course, one wishes to say "justice" is "perfection or death" I suppose. If that's the case, that's an unfair standard for any being to expect out of anyone, in my opinion. Of course, an argument can be made that if there's a God, he can do what he wants, and I won't argue against that. But to try to say it's a "loving" or "just" act is kind of saying, in my opinion: God exists, might makes right, God's the might, and what he says goes. Or one can go ahead and say everything God does is good by default. Ok, then what? We should look at what doesn't appear good to us as "good"? If the Bible said that God killed a million people for the sins of a few, should we then say that it's a good act because "God did it"?

Then why can I walk outside happy, without a care in the world and not suspecting anything, and then have something horrible happen to me to my great detriment. No warning; not even a twinge of anxiety. Would it be that god just chooses not to talk?

On the other side of the coin, I can get that twinge of anxiety, but nothing happens should I obey it or not. Sometimes you just get these sorts of thing for no reason. Sometimes bad things happen to me because I follow it. Is god just pulling my chain for his own amusement?

Those are good questions. It is my experience that God is with me no matter what happens, good or bad. And that He has protected me from harm many times. The odds of me being alive are just...negative...as self-destructive as my behaviour has been in the past. It's been just recently that He's miraculously ridden me of a 20+ year and deadly drug addiction...nicotene, alcohol and marijuana...extremely physically addicted to nicotene, and extremely emotionally addicted to an altered state of mind. What's happened to me recently has been a real trip to make an understatement.

It is also my experience that bad things happen to good people all the time. But that God can see a greater outcome that we can not see. There is reason in everything...and even if the reason is just to learn something new...that may be a good enough reason. Often times, and it's a shame but, tragedy brings out the best in people. Look at the humanitarian effort and the outpouring of love that resulted from the 9/11 tragedy. Sometimes a bad experience can bring people together that need to be together for the greater good...for their own good. What is that saying? What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger?

Funny, I was just having a conversation with my brother tonight, and he's not a Christian, but a real history nut. And he said that some monks and other early Christian sects used to beat themselves with implements to invoke suffering. Like in an attempt to emulate the suffering of Christ, and to initiate learning from it. I'm still not sure how I feel about that. It seems very ritualistic to me, and therefore kind of hollow. For one, you're never going to get close to what Christ suffered. Two, the fact that the wounds are self-inflicted seems to take something vast away from the experience. And three, isn't there enough suffering in life already and inherently? After all, that's what were all talking about here...the point of this thread. I don't know. My brother seemed to think it was credible...that maybe comfort leads to laziness and stupidity. So he thinks that suffering does initiate learning. Hm...to be driven to seek the truth in an effort to eliminate or aleviate the suffering...or at the very least explain it. Maybe he's got a point...

I also know one thing for sure, because God has done this for me in many ways. That is He can use the worst thing for good. He can take the worst thing...the worst event or act or intent...and make something good out of it. Everything that happens is ultimately within His will. And His will is good...pure good and unconditional love...which means for our benefit...for our own good. We may have free will to do as we please...make our own choices good or bad. But we only do this within the realm which He created, and under the law that He designed. He is the one who has given us what we have to choose from. And He is the one who has determined the consequences of the choices we make according to His law.


Heh. Why should our short and petty lives matter enough to a being who sees worlds flash into existence and then die in a relative instant. A human living 100 years or 10 would make little difference to a being who measures time by the rotation of the galaxy. And that is if he even exists.

On that scale, good and evil cease to have any personal meaning. A planet may have some meaning. A species may have some meaning. Even a culture may have some meaning. But an individual only matters as far as it affects the greater universe.

It has meaning to us. It means everything to us...here and now. To learn this...to seek the truth about God is the meaning of life. To understand the difference between good and evil and experience the consequences of both so that we have knowledge of both is why we are here now...living with both. So that we understand that what God tells us is the truth...look around...the wages of sin really is death. That's why He hates sin, and that's why He will rid the world of it with His wrath. This is not the end...this is not all there is...rejoice in that certainly!!!!! His Word speaks of eternal life, and because the consequence of sin is death, an eternal life must then be void of sin. He wants us to see that with our own eyes...to hear it with our ears...to feel it with our flesh...yes, that it hurts...so that we KNOW...so that we truly understand. His Word says that this is NOT what He ultimately wants for us...and this is not what He will ultimately have for us. He offers us something so much better. Why it is that someone would not want an eternal life void of sin is beyond me...and that is what He offers.

You know, God doesn't do anything in vain or without purpose. If we didn't matter to Him He would not have created us in the first place. What is the scripture? "God's Word does not return to Him void"...which to me means that everything happens for a reason...every little thing. And that His will will be done...I guess the question is are you in or are you out? Do you really want this wretched flesh? Or are you willing to trade it in for something so much better? He is not done yet...this is a process that is not finished yet...Creation is not "complete". When it is complete...it will last forever. This life...in this flesh...is a step along the way.

I know the way He is with me...the way that He makes me feel. I've never felt so much love...true love...not in this world...it's not of this world. Because of who He is, He is able to give freely of this love to everyone who wants it...who wants to know it...to know Him...which is amazing to me...that He can be that way in the first place, and that He has an infinite amount to spread around. What He has done for me...how He's helped me...what He's taught me and shown me...how He's just been there for me...I swear to you, has made me feel like I'm the luckiest girl in the whole world. It makes my cry every time I think about it...I'm just so grateful and relieved...words just don't seem to capture how much. And I know I'm not special...everyone is special to Him. He loves all of us the same, and would give to all of you the same. All you have to do is to receive. You can not receive in denial or in rejection.

Love,

Lori

PS...Happy Thanksgiving everybody!

There are two things I wish to post:
1) Lies only exist to hide the truth.
2) Evil exists only because we allow it to.

The world could be free of evil in very little time if we all genuinely wanted it to be so.

To take the religious perspective:

The second book of the bible was all about the love and justice of that which is God. It suggests even if just in poetry that to love one another is the key to the erradication of evil. Now this book was written 2000 years ago.....yep...2000 year ago.

To take a humanistic perspective:

The Charter of human rights were created and endorsed over 50 years ago....yep that's 50 years ago.......

Take a older religious perspective:

How long ago was the ten comandments handed down.....hmmmmm...5000 years ago maybe....yep....5000 years ago.

The legal perspective:

Laws are in place have been for ages...yep have been for ages...

So tell me ...why does evil exist?

The answer is ...simply because that is what we have chosen and continue to choose to allow to exist.

The answer is not in "Gods'" hands but our own.....

Evil is not Gods responsibility it is ours and ours alone....every one of us....

Every time you ignore someones plight, every time you get a buzz out of seeing someone bleed, everytime you profit from someone elses misery you are choosing to allow evil to exist....
end of story and end of rant

I like that story...good answer. :)

God is able, willing and doing. The problem (or key) is balance. Evil exists only in the human mind, because he has fallen from the divine oneness to the world of separation. Now he must combine every two opposite to create balance. Man's nature is to search the good and avoid the bad, but God's nature is to make no difference between them. The evil is as important as the good, because without it we are not able to know what good is, since the only good is balance. Things depend on what we think of them and how we use them, that decides if they are evil or good.

The created world is like a tree: To left it bears evil (negative) fruits and to right it bears good (positive) fruits. But both of them come from the same stem, from the same one-ness. Only by separating, good and evil is born from the one-ness, which is not good or evil, but divine. Only by separating, information is possible. From this comes the consequence that the world consists of good and evil, but without this separation, creation is not possible.

Nothing can push aside God, he must always exist. This makes him omnipresent. God is the unity, he can't be separated. Even so, he created the world of separation, he sent two images of himself to reflect him, and these opposites keep searching the unification forever and ever. God knows everything, and suffering is the best way to lead man to the truth. God doesn't think like we do, he doesn't favor the good people more than the evil. God respects our free will. We wouldn't be free if he once again took us to the paradise. But we will come there, by our free will and by the guidance of God.

Very good...for there to be life, there must be death...for there to be good, there must be evil...for there to be light, there must be darkness...for there to be peace, there must be calamity...for there to be love, there must be hate...for there to be order, there must be chaos...for there to be joy, there must be sorrow...and on and on. But just because the possibility of these things exist within creation, does not mean that we must choose the latter of each of the two options.

Love ya.

sin is not a transgression of law, it's a trangression of your gods law, but what of the non-religious who have not sinned, they die for no reason, this is not the consequences of sin, none of these people will have flesh eternal, but they exist without sin.

The only man who ever lived without sin is God Himself in the flesh of Jesus Christ. Certainly you must realize that just because you deny the existence of sin does not in any way mean that you aren't a sinner. You will die because of sin...whether you acknowledge it as the reason or not. After all, you can believe that the world is flat if you want to...but that doesn't make it so. It may make for some rather inefficient long distance travel arrangements...

Love you.

to kill all people including children, such as in a worldwide flood is not bad :rolleyes: then?
what will they learn when they are DEAD!

Not to f*%k demons and breed nephilim. *shrug*

Love,

Lori

Yorda the problem is that to justify evil as necessary to promote good only goes to justify the existence of evil in our lives. A bit like saying the evil is essential to our existence. And it is just this sort of justification that allows evil to go on existing.

Is it fair to say that right can only be achieved if wrong is present?

I don't think so.....even a man living in a cave knows what works for his ultimate benefit and what doesn't. Does he deliberately perpetrate an evil against his own interests just so that he can get it right later....?

He's miraculously ridden me of a 20+ year and deadly drug addiction...nicotene, alcohol and marijuana...extremely physically addicted to nicotene, and extremely emotionally addicted to an altered state of mind. What's happened to me recently has been a real trip to make an understatement.

First off, you make me sick. If this is a real problem in your life, you smoke up,
then you need to get a life. For a lot of people their problem is they can't smoke up. And for those of us that live in the real world, death is a problem.

Everything that happens is ultimately within His will. And His will is good...pure good and unconditional love...which means for our benefit...for our own good.

The Holocaust? Eh? how about ethnic cleansing in the Balkans? Or what is going on in Darfur right now? Or what Europeans did to the native north and south americans? Or a million other horrible acts. To say that everything will turn out good in the end is not only wrong and illogical, but it is plain evil. If some mass murderer snuck through your window tonight and smothered you to death that is not a good thing. that is sick to believe that everything that is bad has a good end, that is not the way adults think and the real world works. Grow up.


for there to be love, there must be hate...for there to be order, there must be chaos...for there to be joy, there must be sorrow

On the "Spouting Inane Bull" exam you get an A+, on the "Talking like an Adult, and not a naive child" exam, you fail with an F-
Really though, this kind of "logic" was fine in kindergarten, but the rest of us matured and left the idealistic and illogical behind. While you are throwing out your ill-conceived ideas about good and evil, please also realize that Christopher Columbus was a sadistic asshole and the war on drugs, homelessness, and terrorism don't work.

Sorry, I am ranting. It is just this kind of rampant ignorance is stunning. Listen, if there were a god and he was benevolent then why make pain at all? Why make chaos? Who the hell says we have to suffer in order to enjoy things? and your definition of joy through sorrow is just plain wrong, and like I pointed out to you before (even though I do admit I know nothing abbout you, I would wager your family is still intact and not murdered in their sleep, and I would also hope that you have never been gang-raped) I would wager that you cannot think of what TRUE sorrow means. Your relative sorrow is NOTHING compared to the tragedy of real strife, true sorrow that I think that you would have trouble explaining as an act of god. Tell me why god would allow girls to be raped before they hit puberty. Tell me why YOUR god would allow soldiers in Sudan to throw babies up in the air for target practice. Please explain to them, not me, why god loves them and that is why millions starve to death every year.

Listen to reason: god does not exist. There is nobody behind the smoke and mirrors of "good and evil". They, like god himself, are constructs of the human mind to help cope with war, disease, famine, and evil. If god did exist and was "good" then he would not allow the kind of evil I mentioned above. The truth is he doesn't exist. A just god would step in, hell if I was god I would step in, unless of course I was malevolent then I would do nothing. The FACT of the matter is god does not and we are only to blame for the evil of the world. It is useless to talk about divine intervention stepping in and saving anybody.

The beef I have with religion is that the money, resources, and manpower that could go to the solving the problems of war, hunger, disease, and inequality all over the world is instead pissed away on you going to church on sunday for the bullshit reason that you are going to go to heaven when you die. Think for one minute. Your selfish act of "spiritual growth" is taking food out of the mouth of somebody dying in nother country. Please, review what I have written and think about it with a clear mind. What makes more sense, a world with or without god.

-ZERO MASS

zero: I am in awe. hear hear.


lori:
The only man who ever lived without sin is God Himself in the flesh of Jesus Christ. Certainly you must realize that just because you deny the existence of sin does not in any way mean that you aren't a sinner.
in your opinion, sin is a religious concept, I am not remotely religious, there is no historical proof a jesus (or who was the son of a god) every lived.
so lets make it clear, so you dont preach your shit to me or my kind, I/we have not sinned in anyway possible.
and now look at it this way and read my previous post again thank you.

Originally Posted by the preacher
sin is not a transgression of law, it's a trangression of your gods law, but what of the non-religious who have not sinned, they die for no reason, this is not the consequences of sin, none of these people will have flesh eternal, but they exist without sin.



oh btw that's rich coming from a xian (After all, you can believe that the world is flat if you want to) when you believe in fantasy figures, wow!


Originally Posted by Q25
to kill all people including children, such as in a worldwide flood is not bad then?
what will they learn when they are DEAD! ”


Not to f*%k demons and breed nephilim. *shrug*
wtf wow!, you are now entering the twilight zone.
this is one sick statement, children will learn this when there dead, wow!.

Yorda the problem is that to justify evil as necessary to promote good only goes to justify the existence of evil in our lives. A bit like saying the evil is essential to our existence. And it is just this sort of justification that allows evil to go on existing.

A human creates imbalance, (or evil) and the balance (the good) tries to inform us (by suffering) that we are doing the wrong thing.

If we didn't know what evil was, we might see someone crying for help and we would just walk by, because we don't know what evil is, and thus we wouldn't know what is right to do. But real evil is imbalance between two opposites. Animals and plants don't "know" what good and evil is, and because they don't know, they DO the right thing all the time, they have no choice but to do so, because they don't know any of the two opposites, they just act upon feelings.

In the primal state of existence all two opposites rested with each other, in complete balance, (and still do so) this means that they actually didn't exist (and still don't). Since, if we combine two opposites in harmony, they always melt together, they stop having an existence, and a new existence is born - balance. If we had black and white color for example, and then imagine that we would mix them together; both the black and the white would stop existing, and a new color would be born, the balance of these two colors. It's like this with every two opposite that we melt together. In the material world 2 things can't really be on the same space and time, but in our consciousness it is fully possible.

We must consider the fact that two opposites don't have a self-governing existence, but they are dependant on each other, on the tension between them which creates them. Most people would agree that there are no absolute directions. Even so, up and down must be thought as two opposites. However, when we are in space, there is no up and down. So the directions up and down are dependant on a body, which is depenant on gravity. Gravity is a manifestation of the balance between two illusional opposites.

Is it fair to say that right can only be achieved if wrong is present?

Yes, but remember that the other side is always left undisclosed, but it certainly exists! If I do good, the "not-good" is invisible, and when I don't do good, the good is invisible. Without this separation, the material world is not possible, because it consists of opposites which search for each other. Just as a coin has two sides, which still are one wholeness, in the same way are all two opposites only two aspects of one wholeness.

If I scatter 100 coins on the ground, about 50 of them are heads and the other half are tails. Why is it like this? Because 2 opposing (complementary) forces can't exist on the same space and time in the material world. These coins search for unity by combining themselves with each other so that a balance appears, but this is just a material manifestation of the unity.

I don't think so.....even a man living in a cave knows what works for his ultimate benefit and what doesn't. Does he deliberately perpetrate an evil against his own interests just so that he can get it right later....?

Animals and plants never do good or evil, they obey the Creator and balancer of all opposites, on an animal and vegetative state. Because they use both the good and evil in balance, these "opposites" stops existing - They do the right thing. A man might think that he is doing good but he might actually be doing evil, because he is already separated from the Creator unlike animals and plants. There is no eternal separation between two opposites, rather they are dependant on the balancer.

Life in the material world is a circle (or more likely a sphere) of events; a man might be happy, but after happiness he falls into sorrow. Only if he has balance in his life, he can always be "happy". If he treats the good as the bad, like the sun shines with its warmth to all things, only then can he come back to the center of this circle and realize the entire spectrum, the sum of all perceptions, the absolute reality. He who has found the beginning has also found the end. He who has understood the meaning between two opposites is on his way of understanding everything, because the whole creation is based on this principal.

What is so evil in this world? Only the humans are evil, because they don't know how to obey the balance. People constantly go against the One which tries to make things back to normal. They think they can go their own way and be happy, but they can't. An earthquake is not evil. It can kill many people but it's not evil. Things are what we think of them.

First off, you make me sick. If this is a real problem in your life, you smoke up,
then you need to get a life. For a lot of people their problem is they can't smoke up. And for those of us that live in the real world, death is a problem.

First off, you want to know why this world sucks? Well then take a good long look in the f'ing mirror sweetheart, because it's hateful, judgemental, and vile sentiment just like yours that makes it that way, you bigot.

And death isn't a problem for those of us who know how, or in Whom rather, to overcome it. The only reason that it's such a problem for you is because it's all you've got...this wretched stinking world and all of it's misery is all you've got to look to...no wonder you're so disappointed and pissed off. But don't blame me or anyone else or even God for that matter because that is all you choose to see, it's no one's fault but your own. You stick your head in the sand, and then whine around about how uncomfortable you are, and that everything looks so dark. If you choose to be blind, then be blind, but stop whining about it...it's your own choice. Otherwise, pull your head out of whatever dark, cavernous recess you have it shoved up into, and get a clue.





The Holocaust? Eh? how about ethnic cleansing in the Balkans? Or what is going on in Darfur right now? Or what Europeans did to the native north and south americans? Or a million other horrible acts. To say that everything will turn out good in the end is not only wrong and illogical, but it is plain evil. If some mass murderer snuck through your window tonight and smothered you to death that is not a good thing. that is sick to believe that everything that is bad has a good end, that is not the way adults think and the real world works. Grow up.

Speak for yourself, you're the one ranting like some five year old spoiled brat who had his lollipop taken away. You want to change the world? Take a look at yourself...that's always a great place to start. As a matter of fact, I have found that it's the only way. You can't control anyone else, but you can control yourself, Saint Zero.

And allow me to reiterate once again...sin is indeed horrible, and not good. The effects of sin are the very suffering and pain and sickness and death that you are complaining of, and I don't like it any more than you do. Apparently I like it even less than you do, since I choose salvation from it, and an eternal life without it. The only good end lies in God...the only good end lies within the salvation from this evil that He offers in Christ. And so what do you do? Turn your nose up in the air and refuse it? If I can't have it my way then I don't want it at all? You would rather be some mindless puppet? You would rather be a slave to ignorance? You would rather not have a choice? You would rather be forced to commune with Him and blindly follow His law? Well then you might make a great pet...but His pet is not what you were created to be.




On the "Spouting Inane Bull" exam you get an A+, on the "Talking like an Adult, and not a naive child" exam, you fail with an F-
Really though, this kind of "logic" was fine in kindergarten, but the rest of us matured and left the idealistic and illogical behind. While you are throwing out your ill-conceived ideas about good and evil, please also realize that Christopher Columbus was a sadistic asshole and the war on drugs, homelessness, and terrorism don't work.

Sorry, I am ranting. It is just this kind of rampant ignorance is stunning. Listen, if there were a god and he was benevolent then why make pain at all? Why make chaos? Who the hell says we have to suffer in order to enjoy things? and your definition of joy through sorrow is just plain wrong, and like I pointed out to you before (even though I do admit I know nothing abbout you, I would wager your family is still intact and not murdered in their sleep, and I would also hope that you have never been gang-raped) I would wager that you cannot think of what TRUE sorrow means. Your relative sorrow is NOTHING compared to the tragedy of real strife, true sorrow that I think that you would have trouble explaining as an act of god. Tell me why god would allow girls to be raped before they hit puberty. Tell me why YOUR god would allow soldiers in Sudan to throw babies up in the air for target practice. Please explain to them, not me, why god loves them and that is why millions starve to death every year.

It is you who needs to open up a science text book dear. This is law we're talking about, and any time there is law, there exists the possibility of a transgression of it. Take a running leap off of a 30 story building and see if the effects of gravity don't suck...yea, pretty damn bloody. Does that mean that gravity is a bad thing? Well according to your logic it does. What is the only alternative to order? Hello, it's chaos. What is the alternative to love? It's hate. You have a choice, and your sentiment is pretty clear. What is the trangression of God's law? It's sin. What does God say about sin? He hates it. Will we remain in it forever? No, that's why He came here in the flesh as the ultimate sacrifice for it. And so whoever so chooses, can receive salvation through this sacrifice, as His wrath will surely destroy this sinful flesh and the remains of the devastating effects of it. Why do you think that what Jesus suffered was so horrible? Take a look around...because the effects of sin are so horrible, that's why.

You don't have to suffer to enjoy things, and you do not find joy through sorrow. But to suffer and to feel sorrow, you know what the effects of sin are, because you've experienced them, and so in knowledge, you can choose something better...the alternative.

And who are you kidding? Judging from your sentiment, it is pretty clear that nothing would make you happier than to see me gang raped. Apparently that's the only thing that would qualify me to have an opinion in a conversation with you. Which leads me to wonder if you yourself have been gang raped, or have had your family murdered in their sleep, because if not, then you don't have a valid opinion either. And that's according to your own logic...and I use that term very loosely here to make a point.

Fact is that I indeed have suffered because of the malicious intentions of men. I have been scared to death by them actually, and that fear has led me to believe lies that have caused me all kinds of strife. I have suffered mostly though, because of my own sin. And yes, it is all relative, but all it takes is compassion, and you are then suffering in sympathy. The truth is that whether we choose to recognize it or not, we all suffer due to everyone's sin, because we all live in the same ultimate condition of death...we all live in the same deadly world. Just because your flesh may be comfortable, does not mean that you are not suffering. Just because you deny your suffering does not mean that you are not suffering...it just means that you are ignoring the truth about this world, and believing the lies of your flesh.

And just because God allows us the free will to experience sin and it's effects does not mean that He condones it. God hates it more than you do. It is not God who tells a man to sin, but not to...and man turns against God and does it anyway.

Listen to reason: god does not exist. There is nobody behind the smoke and mirrors of "good and evil". They, like god himself, are constructs of the human mind to help cope with war, disease, famine, and evil. If god did exist and was "good" then he would not allow the kind of evil I mentioned above. The truth is he doesn't exist. A just god would step in, hell if I was god I would step in, unless of course I was malevolent then I would do nothing. The FACT of the matter is god does not and we are only to blame for the evil of the world. It is useless to talk about divine intervention stepping in and saving anybody.

What? Step in and and do something about it like come to earth Himself in the form of a man named Jesus Christ and offer Himself up to suffering as a sacrifice in atonement for all of the world's sin so that every man can have salvation through it? DUH....

And please stop talking out of both sides of your mouth...do you realize how stupid what you just said was? You said that evil was of "smoke and mirrors", and a construct of the human mind, to help cope with evil. So in your apparent nonsensical mind, what God defines as evil is an illusion, and what we define as evil in the world is reality, when in fact, they are by definition one in the same...exactly the same.

So you talk about how a just God would have to step in and save us from what is clearly our own deeds, and then in the next breath you deny the worth of salvation from divine intervention. Fine...you don't want help? You don't want salvation? You get what you want. You want to rely on yourself for your own salvation? You want to rely on this world? Well good luck with that, because history speaks for itself now doesn't it.


The beef I have with religion is that the money, resources, and manpower that could go to the solving the problems of war, hunger, disease, and inequality all over the world is instead pissed away on you going to church on sunday for the bullshit reason that you are going to go to heaven when you die. Think for one minute. Your selfish act of "spiritual growth" is taking food out of the mouth of somebody dying in nother country. Please, review what I have written and think about it with a clear mind. What makes more sense, a world with or without god.


First of all, I don't go to church, I am the church. And I do what I can even given my own sinful nature, which is what I would imagine to be no more or less or better or worse than what you do. Spiritual growth is not attained by going to a particular building that is run by a particular organization on a particular day and doing particular things while there. Spiritual growth comes only by rebirth through the Holy Spirit and is something profoundly personal. It also involves a conviction of sin, and a required repentence of it, which is a turning away. What I have learned through rebirth and by the counsel of the Holy Spirit has led me to turn away from some sin in my life. Sin that hurt me and hurt others around me. I do not take credit for this change. All I wanted was the truth, and to do what was right, but it was the power of God that manifested this change in me. It is clear to me that there is much to learn, and that I will be a work in progress until the day I die. It is clear to me that death is the only "fix" to this problem of sin, but that doesn't mean I can't try my best. And so the best thing that I can do to try to effect positive change in this world, which is to eliminate what sin I can, is to seek God more and more. You want to consider that a selfish act, you go right ahead. But I seek God in my life for the very same reasons that you are so pissed off...because I hate sin and the effects of it.

And as many problems as I have with organized religion...so much so that I can not bring myself to participate in it....organized religion has funded and perpetuated more humanitarian efforts in this world than all other secular organizations combined. Have they done everything right? No. Have they fucked up royaly and in many ways? Yes. But so have I and so have you. And after all, it stands to reason, since they are only an organization of sinners. What have you done to save the world you hypocrit? I suppose you live some meager existence like some monk so that you can give all of your money to charity right? I suppose that you spend all of your free time volunteering to feed and shelter those in need right? I suppose that you constantly give of yourself to others and offer your time and resources and money to those who are hurting right? What are YOU doing to change the world besides bitching about it?

XOXO,

Lori

zero: I am in awe. hear hear.


lori:
The only man who ever lived without sin is God Himself in the flesh of Jesus Christ. Certainly you must realize that just because you deny the existence of sin does not in any way mean that you aren't a sinner.
in your opinion, sin is a religious concept, I am not remotely religious, there is no historical proof a jesus (or who was the son of a god) every lived.
so lets make it clear, so you dont preach your shit to me or my kind, I/we have not sinned in anyway possible.
and now look at it this way and read my previous post again thank you.

Yes, profound as usual. There is no such thing as greed, lust, envy, gluttony, pride, sloth, or wrath, and therefore no negative consequences of such. Soooooo, what is this thread about again????? Refresh my memory...what is it that you atheists are whining about again??? OH YEA, THE SIN IN THE WORLD AND THE HORRIBLE EFFECTS OF IT.

You can deny, deny, deny all you want to preacher man, but those of us who have eyes and choose to use them to see the truth...we see your sin. As a matter of fact, we live with it everyday, as with our own. You're not fooling anyone but yourself.

Originally Posted by the preacher
sin is not a transgression of law, it's a trangression of your gods law, but what of the non-religious who have not sinned, they die for no reason, this is not the consequences of sin, none of these people will have flesh eternal, but they exist without sin.



oh btw that's rich coming from a xian (After all, you can believe that the world is flat if you want to) when you believe in fantasy figures, wow!

Believe what you want preacher. But what I'm saying is the truth and is correct and you can not argue with it, and that is this...

That just because you believe something to be true, does not in fact make it true. That just because you want to believe something to be true, does not make it true. So believe what you want...everyone does. But it would serve you well to examine the intentions within you and that determine how sincerely you seek the truth. You're intentions are not pure or founded in humility, and therefore you do not sincerely seek the truth. You seek to be right. And guess what? You're not. So believe what you want.



Not to f*%k demons and breed nephilim. *shrug*
wtf wow!, you are now entering the twilight zone.
this is one sick statement, children will learn this when there dead, wow!.

Physical death doesn't mean as much as you think it does, as this world is all that your blind eyes can see. We are eternal spirits. And if you're going to quote the Bible, I would suggest yet again, that you actually and at least remotely familiarize yourself with it first. For it is quite clear that God flooded the earth because the sons of God had bred with the daughters of men, and created nephilim. These were the exceedingly wicked and evil goings on at the time, and the reason for the destruction of that blood line.

You want to quote scripture? Then at least know what it is you're talking about. Otherwise why bother? You don't believe it anyway, so why do you? You don't make any sense.


But I still love ya.

I think most people are in agreement, whether you believe in God or not, that humans are responsible for the evil in the world. Sure, there is debate over natural disasters, but by and by it would seem that evil arises out of human activies, rather than it being something that is simply inherent in nature. Meh, that's my take on it anyway. I have no need to pass on guilt to God. I am responsible for whatever evils I bring upon myself and others. Simple as that.

lori I did'nt quote scripture, I quoted you.
however you are, and have been making soom, rather nasty callous statements, and you make out I'm the evil one, also I never once said I was'nt guilty of some minor bad things in my life, I said I cant sin, you have to believe in your god to sin.( sin: an act that is regarded by theologians as a transgression of God's will )( commit a sin; violate a law of God )

and note that it seems that anybody who remotely disagrees with you is the nastiest person/persons on this planet, I am glad it's just your fingers typing and not holding a gun, and we not in the same street, you would proberly kill one of us.

To teach a child right from wrong is not malevolent. To shelter a child from any knowledge of wrong is to avoid teaching them altogether.I do not believe that you (or your children) know the difference yet. Please, post you address so I can come over tie you up, and randomly chop fingers and toes off. To shelter your child from this knowledge of wrong is to avoid teaching them altogether.

You never really answered the question in the first post. Your answer seems to be that God is able, but not willing. The problem with your logic is that some people do go through life without experiencing as much pain as most. Are they now suddenly short changed? No matter how you cut it you have people that experience tons of pain, and those that don't.

For it is quite clear that God flooded the earth because the sons of God had bred with the daughters of men, and created nephilim. These were the exceedingly wicked and evil goings on at the time, and the reason for the destruction of that blood line.

A long time ago there was a race on earth, which was totally different from the man we see today. Their consciousness was on a divine state and they followed the Law without attaching themselves to the body and its properties - egoism. With their divine purity, this race truly deserved to be called "the Sons of God" (SoG).

The SoG became fewer and fewer on earth because they didn't procreate, materialize, on earth anymore, but ascended to heaven for a moment (so that we would grow independently). But before the SoG left the earth they had to plant their divine seed among people, so that after a long time of devolopment, the rise from matter would be possible again.

Because the SoG bred with the early humans, they also attached themselves to matter and lost their eternal life and fell to the sufferings of matter. But these were selfless people who were all-loving, and they were not restricted by bodily aspects. These SoG who took upon their shoulders this great burden will be born as great teachers, scientists, philosophers, mysticists, these great people will lead man to higher truth. They will live lonely lives and few people will understand them. Those who don't understand will laugh and those who understand them will listen and admire them.

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them.
They were the heroes of old, men of renown." - Genesis 6:4

The SoG were also Nephilim ("giants"). From the mixture of these two races (the SoG and early humans) this human race was born.

From the first crossbreedings of the SoG (which also were human, just that they were of greater size) and the daughters of men, "hybrids" were born, which partly had the divine spiritual powers of SoG and partly had the great physical powers of the daughters of men. So there were those which were physically giants, but still inherited the early human brain from the mother's side. Because of that, they converted the creative power from their father's side into great physical powers. With their great physical strenght they suppressed the weaker and because of their animal desires, they became feared tyrants.

But there were also spiritual giants, who didn't express their creative power in physical strength, but with the higher organs in the brain. Their job was to lead the hopeless people to love, wisdom, science, art - to higher culture.

Then there were also those who inherited Both the "magical" knowledge of the fathers and the earthly egoistic nature of their mother. They sneaked into the temples, and because of their spiritual powers they attained the inititation. But they suppressed this divine knowledge to black magic, they used the spiritual powers selfishly with their own power and the powers of nature, which the help of the devices from the temples.

Those SoG which lived in that land knew (they saw it as an inner vision) what was going to happen, they knew that these powers destroy without mercy the one who uses them incorrectly. These were the days of Noah, when the Sons of God built great ships, which were closed from all sides, even for those powers that go through matter, and they fled from the doomed land. Some of them sailed to the north, some to the east, some to the south, and to the west.

One day, when the SoG were already far away, an accident happened, for a black magician directed a power which destroys matter (converts it into another form of energy) to his own body. When this process has once started there is no stopping it, the matter which has formed into energy works as a destroying power until everything has been dematerialized.

The whole continent transformed into radiation energy, which first ascended to the outmost atmosphere and then came back in all kinds of substances. In constant processes of change this gigantic mass fell down as endless water- mud- and sand rain. In the place where this fallout met with a great 'earthmother', the waters of the oceans 'united' (even above great mountains). The 'other side' of the earth's continents 'separated' from each other and parted further away until they reached balance, until they reached about the point where the continents are today. The 'partly' destroyed continent is now a great desert. 'Nothing sounds here but the wind. Nothing moves here but the sand.'

The SoG had certain devices in their ships which always kept them in balance. This way, they lived through these nature catastrophes and reached land. Wherever the SoG went a new civilisation was created. With their infinite wisdom and universal love they conquered the hearts of all humans, they ruled over them and were respected as gods or half gods. At very first they raised adequate buildings to keep their devices which radiated all-piercing energies, these buildings which we call pyramids.

Because of the crossbreeding between this divine race, it is even today possible, through the laws of nature that the Son of God is born on earth, even under the darkest period. In the end times when the Sons of God will once again be born here, they will remember what they knew and they will do what they have to do.

Yorda,
Possibly we neeed to make the distinction between right and wrong and good and evil for they are not necessarilly the same.
How would you define evil?

Can a right action ever be evil?

Can a wrong action ever be good?

To me evil requires violition. It must be deliberate to be classed as evil.

For example; is an tornado that sweeps through a town and hurts 10 people inherantly evil?
To me the answer is no, as no deliberate action has been taken to make this so.

Is a car accident caused by a man who knows he shouldn't be driving but drives anyway an act of evil? To me I would say yes.

Is the act of blaming an event [the great flood in the bible] on a GOD and claiming he did it deliberately for purposes of superstition and religion thus misleading the common folk, an act of evil?
To me I would say yes.

Doing evil requires deliberate choices. And if a decision ismade to do what you know is the wrong thing then you are creating an evil.
To deliberately make a mistake makes that mistake not a mistake but an evil.

The difference between right and wrong and evil and good are quite subtle sometimes.

long time ago there was a race on earth, which was totally different from the man we see today. Their consciousness was on a divine state and they followed the Law without attaching themselves to the body and its properties - egoism. With their divine purity, this race truly deserved to be called "the Sons of God" (SoG)...............etc

You know, it is contantly a source of amazment and wonder how poeple use their imaginations and apply small fragments of information and build huge stories out of them. Tolkien was famous for doing it and Yorda you should write a book or two just like he did.

I am impressed by the story and marvel at it's construction but most of all I am amazed that it has the possibility of one person giving it credibility by lending his belief to it. :)

So, Yorda...abducted much?

Love, Lori

lori I did'nt quote scripture, I quoted you.
however you are, and have been making soom, rather nasty callous statements, and you make out I'm the evil one, also I never once said I was'nt guilty of some minor bad things in my life, I said I cant sin, you have to believe in your god to sin.( sin: an act that is regarded by theologians as a transgression of God's will )( commit a sin; violate a law of God )

and note that it seems that anybody who remotely disagrees with you is the nastiest person/persons on this planet, I am glad it's just your fingers typing and not holding a gun, and we not in the same street, you would proberly kill one of us.

Preacher for crying out loud a duck is a duck. You're arguing about what to call the same thing. Ok, how about this...just because you don't call it sin, doesn't mean sin doesn't exist, or that you aren't a sinner. Is it really that important what you call it? Let's call greed greed, and let's call lust lust...let's call envy envy, and let's call sloth sloth...ok? How about that?

And you know what? It seems that you're a bit biased. Let's see how you take it if someone opens a response to your post with "First off, you make me sick." The animosity that I receive from some out here is definitely not imagined, as it has even been pointed out by others, including an atheist. People disagree with me all the time, are you kidding? My own family disagrees with me about all kinds of things...and dear friends...and I love them to death, and we get along splendidly.

So let me ask you a question...how do you feel about Christians? Cause I get the distinct feeling that some people out here would answer "I hate them"...or how about "they make me sick". All I have to do is come out to one of these threads and offer up my honest opinion...what I believe, and that's the sentiment that is hurled at me. And actually, some of you atheists have proven that some particular scripture is true regarding this sentiment. Way to go.

Oh yes, and now I'm a homicidal maniac...right...um...do you hear yourself?!?!?!?!?!?!? And I would suppose that according to what you've said that your sentiment here is completely justified and rational and that I would have no right or reason to be offended. Is that right? And if I were to be offended then you could criticize me and insinuate more horrible things about me and call me names and...well, I've gotta run...seems someone wants to know my address so they can come over and cut off my fingers and toes.

F%$K OFF,

Lori

Ok, you know...I'm sorry for saying F OFF...I don't really mean it necessarily...all that much anyway...and now I feel kind of guilty for saying it. I'm just pissed...the animosity is getting old and wearing on me a bit. I'm not used to people hating me...quite the opposite actually. So would you forgive me? Is that what you even call it, or because it's a major tenet of the Christian faith do you say that forgiveness doesn't exist and refer to the same act by some other term? lol...

I do not believe that you (or your children) know the difference yet. Please, post you address so I can come over tie you up, and randomly chop fingers and toes off. To shelter your child from this knowledge of wrong is to avoid teaching them altogether.

You never really answered the question in the first post. Your answer seems to be that God is able, but not willing. The problem with your logic is that some people do go through life without experiencing as much pain as most. Are they now suddenly short changed? No matter how you cut it you have people that experience tons of pain, and those that don't.


And that would be your choice to come over and tie me up and mutilate me right?

I did answer the question in the first post...my answer was that He is able, but not willing...yet. He's not done yet...seems that some are slow learners. ;)

God doesn't short change anyone...He's GOD. He made us for crying out loud...He designed the desires of your heart and put them in there...He can count the number of hairs on your head at any given time. We're clearly all different. Some people go to their graves just as lost and miserable as they ever were...hard-hearted, bitter, hateful, assholes that seemed to never learn a lesson their entire lives...because they chose not to. Then there are some who seem to have "old souls"...mature beyond their years. The kind of people who don't have to learn everything the hard way. I know what it took to bring me to my knees...to humble me...to get me to sincerely seek the truth. It took something horrible...absolutely horrible. I can only speak for myself.

Love,

Lori

You do realise of course Lori that the main angst about all this Bible and God stuff is that for it to work we must accept that from the moment we were conceived in our mothers womb we some how inherited a sin. This is so counter intuitive that people feel that you are offending them by calling them a sinner when in fact they believe your belief that they are is invalid.

To claim that a week old baby is a sinner and goes to hell if it doesn't grow old enough to understand a concept called Jesus is just so absurd it is almost laughable if it were not for how serious some xians are about it.

The problem is I think people are startng to know when they are being taken for a ride, and this bodes badly for religion because to accept the religion is to allow ourself to be conned into believing you are guilty for something someone else has done which in this case is "god" himself.

The whole offering of the bible and most mono-theistic religions is built on the premise of creating the need [belief in original sin] and provide the answer [in this case Jesus]

Now most people are starting to see this marketing ploy for what it is and of course they get offended when, in your eyes they are sinners and when in their own eyes they can not accept your offending assumption.

It is unfortunate that the very nature of strong belief in a book so full of holes works against what you desire. I would suggest that you all find a better book to use as your justification, because if you rely on this book as your justification religion as we know it is doomed to become a showpiece of superstitious nonsense, which more and more persons are determining it to be as time goes on.

May be it is worth asking why we should accept that the bible and it's followers are not the product of superstition, no different to the belief that rocks with holes in them are devine or pagan whitch craft has intrinsic value.

Why should we believe that it isn't a bad case of clinging to a superstition?

And allow me to reiterate once again...sin is indeed horrible, and not good. The effects of sin are the very suffering and pain and sickness and death that you are complaining of, and I don't like it any more than you do. Apparently I like it even less than you do, since I choose salvation from it, and an eternal life without it. The only good end lies in God...the only good end lies within the salvation from this evil that He offers in Christ. And so what do you do? Turn your nose up in the air and refuse it? If I can't have it my way then I don't want it at all? You would rather be some mindless puppet? You would rather be a slave to ignorance? You would rather not have a choice? You would rather be forced to commune with Him and blindly follow His law? Well then you might make a great pet...but His pet is not what you were created to be.You often run into this argument when God's apparent refusal to prevent horrific things from happening is brought up; Christians will say that God doesn't use his omnipotent powers to prevent, say, a serial killer from torturing, raping, and murdering a child because God values our free will. Think about this for a minute - you're saying that God values the serial killer's right to free will more than the child's right to not be raped, tortured, and murdered. Does that really make sense to you?

You often run into this argument when God's apparent refusal to prevent horrific things from happening is brought up; Christians will say that God doesn't use his omnipotent powers to prevent, say, a serial killer from torturing, raping, and murdering a child because God values our free will. Think about this for a minute - you're saying that God values the serial killer's right to free will more than the child's right to not be raped, tortured, and murdered. Does that really make sense to you?
Of course Nasor, all this really means is that the Christian idea of God is obviously wrong. Not necessarilly that a 'God' per see exists or not, just as to whether the idea of a God capable of doing things deliberately exists.
I for one would argue that the God so often referred to is incapable of single minded action, the God of the bible being a God of preference rather than a God of reality.

To me the entire universe is what God is, and some would call it just simply nature but to assume that God exists as depicted in the bible denigrates God to the level of an idiot lacking any sense at all. And personally I don't think the universe is at all as idiotic as the god of preference being that depicted in the bible and other prescribed montheistic text.
In a way Christianity is an insult to God, as the God would be considerably smarter than what they think he is and certainly not indifferent to the girl being raped and tortured by a serial killer.

So therefore one can only concur that a God as described by the bible does not exist as this would make him a laughing stock.

But I temper my comments by saying that just because the Christian version does not exist this doesn't extend to mean that God doesn't exist, only that he doesn't exist in the form as we would like him to exist.

Yorda,
Possibly we neeed to make the distinction between right and wrong and good and evil for they are not necessarilly the same.
How would you define evil?

Can a right action ever be evil?

Can a wrong action ever be good?

To me evil requires violition. It must be deliberate to be classed as evil.

For example; is an tornado that sweeps through a town and hurts 10 people inherantly evil?
To me the answer is no, as no deliberate action has been taken to make this so.

Is a car accident caused by a man who knows he shouldn't be driving but drives anyway an act of evil? To me I would say yes.

Is the act of blaming an event [the great flood in the bible] on a GOD and claiming he did it deliberately for purposes of superstition and religion thus misleading the common folk, an act of evil?
To me I would say yes.

Doing evil requires deliberate choices. And if a decision ismade to do what you know is the wrong thing then you are creating an evil.
To deliberately make a mistake makes that mistake not a mistake but an evil.

The difference between right and wrong and evil and good are quite subtle sometimes.

Nice, you have good knowledge of good and evil.

A divine action can never be evil and a satanic action can never be good. Free will is needed to differ between right and wrong. Deliberate actions are done in the mind, and what we have done in the mind, that we have already done. A divine action is done in the right place and at right time, but a satanic action is done in the wrong place and at wrong time.

To control your characteristics means to use them in the right place and time. The same characteristic, which is divine in the right place and time, is satanic when used in the wrong place and time. There are no evil characteristics or powers, only characteristics and powers we use in a wrong way. A hammer becomes satanic in a persons hand who uses it to kill an innocent person, and it becomes divine when a person uses it to build something loveful.

If you speak in the wrong place and time, when speaking can hurt, the speaking becomes satanic, it forms into evil 'gossip'. This is a situation where you should be silent, because if silence happens in the right place, it is divine, an act of God. But if you are silent when one word can heal or save someones life, the silence once again forms to a satanic action, into a satanic 'secrecy'. Just as speaking and silence ('not-speaking') are two, each others, complementary manifestations of one power, there are many other characteritics that we have to learn to control in a divine, right way.

When you can control all your characteristics you will not be mistaken anymore, because you will be the love itself. Because love can only do love, you can just radiate 'yourself', you can only be, and 'life giving water will pour out from your eyes.' Remember that all the good chararacteristics that we have belong to Him, our person is only an instrument, a projector. All powers that we express flow to our person from the higher self, from God. The person is only an illusion, our only eternal real being is God.

There are limits in everything, so we should have a balanced mind in every situation. We must be brave and we mustn't fear, not even the death. But never must this courage turn into satanic 'rashness'. Because we must also be careful, but never must this carefulness fall too low. We have to fight with the sword of justice, but never must this fighting turn into senseless 'quarrel'. We must fight so that peace appears between those who are fighting. But never must this peacefulness turn into cowardice. We must do things as good as we can, not 'better' or 'worse'. Otherwise it turns into what I have told you. The personal self doesn't have that much importance as one might think.

It's better for a man to lose his body than to lose his soul. But we must never lead people by force, even if we tell the 'truth' for them, it is still not True if we try to force them to the 'truth'. God let's us have free will, and so must we let others have it, because God only does the good, beautiful and loveful. But never must this turn into personal 'desires', and just watch by when someone is dying. When a word heals, let it out, when a word destroys, don't let it out. Find the perfect balance and see the difference. Whatever we 'eat' we become. Eat these words and once again you 'eat' the fruits from the Lifetree.

It is possible for every human to hear the voice of the higher Self wispering, and whoever obeys this word is on his way to heaven.
But you are what you are, and so is also your future.

So, Yorda...abducted much?

Love, Lori

No, I have never been abducted by aliens. In my opinion, these Nephilim were totally human, just that their bodies were bigger than ours.

But yorda you mentioned earlier that evil 'satanic acts must continue to exist so that we know what is good.

So is not by yourown reckoning doing an evil act just helping every one to know what good is?
And if this is the case is that evil act actually evil if it is needed to create the good.
"evil is good because it allows us to see what is good" type reasoning

Do you see how the logic you are using defeats itself?

QQ

No, evil acts must not exist. But the evil must exist in the hidden, undisclosed; we must never express the evil, but use it as we use the ground when we walk. A thing can't exist without its complementary half. However, the ground, the matter, is not evil, but if we follow its Law, we bring the law alive with our own life - the living matter is satan - the evil. Satan lies dead in matter as long as we don't bring it to life, and it acts as a divine law, a necessary natural law of resistance, since it acts in matter, as matter, that is; 'in the right place and at right time'.

But if the law of resistance and cold is brought to the spirit, it exist 'in the wrong place and at wrong time'. Then man converts and expresses the 'qualities' of matter (hardness, resistance, drawing inward/gravity, cooling) as spiritual forms like egoism, jealousy, spiritual hardness, vain and greediness. Without the ground we can't jump, but we must never express the ground, the material, egoistic nature. If we were not tempted we wouldn't find the good, but we must never fall for the temptations.

Now, there are also evil acts in the world because most people don't win over these temptations, but by their mistakes they will suffer and they will learn by the evil in the 'world' (humans) that they must be good. It would be better if these things never existed, but the free will must exist, and man is like he is and so is his future.

You know, it is contantly a source of amazment and wonder how poeple use their imaginations and apply small fragments of information and build huge stories out of them. Tolkien was famous for doing it and Yorda you should write a book or two just like he did.

I am impressed by the story and marvel at it's construction but most of all I am amazed that it has the possibility of one person giving it credibility by lending his belief to it. :)

Actually I wasn't using my imagination, but just telling the truth. That is all I know and I wouldn't be able to write much more about it than that.

This human race will pass away in the future and maybe another human race will be born, and when they hear about this human race, they will be amazed by what we had achieved and they will tell it to other people. The story goes on and in a distant future it will be thought as a myth, a story, a 'fairytale', but we lived here once and we did what we did, but they don't believe. We flew with space crafts to other planets, we built 'machines' by which we could manipulate and transform 'matter' and 'energy' into different forms, we could control the gravity and other natural forces. Will all these be turned into myths once again, just as the 'miracles' of the Bible has turned into 'myths'?

Many stories like the story about tolkien may in some way reflect real things that has happened, but it is still totally 'made up', of course. Because people are so 'proud' of themselves they don't want to believe anything in the religious scriptures. Why would they say that the Bible is true if it isn't? Why would they write that Moses divided the sea and Jesus raised the dead if they didn't?

Now travel to Egypt, look at the great pyramid and ask yourself how it was built, who did it and why.

"You performed miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt and have continued them to this day, both in Israel and among all mankind, and have gained the renown that is still yours. You brought your people Israel out of Egypt with signs and wonders, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with great terror." Jeremia 32:20-21

God doesn't short change anyone...He's GOD. He made us for crying out loud...He designed the desires of your heart and put them in there...
now wouldnt GOD be responsible for CREATING people wicked then?
like you say here....
For it is quite clear that God flooded the earth because the sons of God had bred with the daughters of men, and created nephilim. These were the exceedingly wicked and evil goings on at the time, and the reason for the destruction of that blood line.
thanks for the contradiction,now you know why reasonable person cannot take the bible seriously!
btw He couldnt just smite the bad fuckers instead of drowning the whole world?? :rolleyes:

he is able, and willing, and patient - he sees no reason to rush into it

i would imagine

You do realise of course Lori that the main angst about all this Bible and God stuff is that for it to work we must accept that from the moment we were conceived in our mothers womb we some how inherited a sin. This is so counter intuitive that people feel that you are offending them by calling them a sinner when in fact they believe your belief that they are is invalid.

Maybe this is where the misconception lies then. I'm not calling anyone anything. I haven't come out here shaking my finger in anyone's face saying, "Repent you sinner or you're going to hell!" You would never in a million years hear those words from me. I speak for myself and for my own beliefs...my own testimony...my own knowledge. I'll call myself a sinner without a doubt...trust me, there is nothing that I'm more aware of except maybe God's love, which I am so eternally grateful for. I haven't come out here accusing people of anything. I came out here to share my experience with people. I mean shit, I had an f'ing miracle happen to me that blew my mind...still is...you know, something along the lines of Fatima, or statues crying tears of blood, or stigmata...what has happened to me...it's just huge...it's huge. And I came out here to share what I know, from what I've experienced. You know, I never expected everyone to agree with what I believe. You can't know what I know unless you've experienced it yourself. And for God's sake I would never suggest that someone just take my word for it...that would be crazy. I never expected people to believe what I said. What has happened to me has been so absolutely over the top that I don't blame people for having a hard time understanding or believing it. I don't know, I used to post out here for years...years ago...and I shared alot, and I learned alot, and I made some really great friends...and with those who do not share my beliefs. There used to be people out here who were intelligent, and respectful, even in disagreement. This place has changed a lot, and unfortunately for the worse. But I didn't know that, and so I came out here thinking that if there was one place that I should be able to go to share some over the top miracle, that it would be here. I was wrong. I thought that if there was a place that I could go to talk about my beliefs and the experience I've had that has led me to them, that it would be a "religious forum", but I was wrong. I think that most of the people out here are cool, but there are a select few, who are honestly some of the most hateful, cynical, close-minded, bigoted, ignorant, self-righteous, egotistical blow-hards I've ever had the displeasure of trying in vain to communicate with. And I suppose that because of said traits, they seem to have something to say about everything...never anything intelligent, respectful, or constructive...but that doesn't stop them. And I suppose that because they hate me, or hate Christianity, or hate me because I'm a Christian, or for whatever reason, they make a point of attacking me at every opportunity. It's entirely lame.


To claim that a week old baby is a sinner and goes to hell if it doesn't grow old enough to understand a concept called Jesus is just so absurd it is almost laughable if it were not for how serious some xians are about it.

I'm a Christian and that is in no way shape or form what I believe to be true. You know, I think the problem definitely is that people who don't know God, or people who aren't even educated in the tenets of the faith through some other theological means, assume to understand things about it/Him, and they're wrong. But the problem is that they don't care if they're wrong, as long as they have what they deem to be a good reason to deny Him, they are happy with that. Let me assure you that God is not stupid, and His will is not absurd. What you have said above is not in God's Word anywhere, and as a matter of fact, it is contradicted in His Word. So why do you want to believe such a thing about God? Why would you assume that this is His sentiment?

The problem is I think people are startng to know when they are being taken for a ride, and this bodes badly for religion because to accept the religion is to allow ourself to be conned into believing you are guilty for something someone else has done which in this case is "god" himself.

You know, because of pride, which is a sin according to the faith, people are so caught up in the whole right vs wrong, good vs bad thing, and that's missing the whole point. People always seem to focus even more on particular acts rather than sin being a state of existence. I can only speak for myself when I say that when I take a look at myself, and when I look around at the world around me, I can see greed, lust, envy, sloth, gluttony, pride, and wrath. Can other people not see these things? I've experienced these things within myself and around me and lived through, and continue to live through the consequences of them...don't you? Are you satisfied with this world? I'm not, and not many people are. Sure there is good in it, but a lot of bad as well...there is both. One of the arguements that is always thrown up is that God is a big meanie for allowing such horrible things happen in the world...all of the pain, suffering and death...that He must be sadistic or malevolent. Which tells me then that people do in fact see the sin, and the conseqences of it...they just don't want to call it sin...whatever???? What you call it is really irrelevant...like I said, a duck is a duck. So you disagree with the fact that humanity is fatally flawed? Well, we surely do die don't we? And we surely do suffer until we do. You think that humanity has what it takes to perfect itself...to redeem itself...to save itself? Well then let's take a look at every history book in existence, and let's take a look at current events. Um...yea...can't really see that happening. Shit, all I have to do is take a look in the mirror, and I know that's never going to happen. Because what I want in my spirit is not the same as what I want in the flesh...they oppose each other...I feel that war going on. So I've given myself and my life up to Him, because I realize that is the only real hope that I have. I would rather not live unless it is He who lives through me..this is what I pray. And on a related sidenote...a rebirth of the flesh...by the flesh...by man...is the mark of the beast. It is a genetic alteration that will make the life of the flesh eternal, but that will kill you spiritually...cut you off completely from God. This is the same thing as the fall of man...this change....only where the fall placed a veil of sin between man and God, the mark cuts us off altogether...the final nail in the coffin. It is stupid to think that we could look to ourselves to provide eternal life and perfection in our own creation...because it is not ourselves who created in the first place. And before you even go there, that is not to say that we are not responsible. We are responsible for gaining enough knowledge through humility and sincerity to realize that can not save ourselves, and to seek the truth about God.


The whole offering of the bible and most mono-theistic religions is built on the premise of creating the need [belief in original sin] and provide the answer [in this case Jesus]

I feel the need. The need has brought me to my knees crying out for help. He was there for me. He was there with me. I heard Him. I felt Him. And what people don't want to know is that I am in no way speaking metaphorically, and that I'm as sane as the day is long. And when this happens to you, you know. You f'ing know...doubt is obliterated. Jesus is the answer. I know Him. I've lived through it, and I know because and only because I've lived through it and I know Him. I don't know what else to say...I'm telling you the truth. The only thing that keeps people from knowing what I know is that they don't want to...that's it. And I think it's extremely clear based upon what's written out here, and if the people reading this were to look honestly at their own intent...people don't want to know Jesus. They don't want to know God. They don't want to share their lives with Him...to hand their self and their lives over to Him. It's as simple as that. And so they go about claiming good reason to not want Him, and that is every man's choice to make. But I'm telling you sincerely that I too was like that at one time...when I was younger. But my intentions changed. And I found out that I was wrong...man, was I ever wrong. And I just want to tell people so bad that they're wrong about God, that they don't understand Him at all. I want to convince them to just get to know Him themselves and they would see what I mean...they would see how wrong a person can be...I saw this myself! But the frustration comes in realizing that people just don't want to know. People don't want to know the truth about Him...people don't want to know Him...otherwise they would...because a sincere desire is all it takes.


Now most people are starting to see this marketing ploy for what it is and of course they get offended when, in your eyes they are sinners and when in their own eyes they can not accept your offending assumption.

What is it exactly that you think I'm marketing? I'm not trying to offend, I'm trying to help. I've experienced something that has helped me so much...that has made my life so fulfilling and so awesome and I'm so amazed and I just want to share it with everyone. I want everyone to know what I know. I want everyone to know and feel and see just how much God loves them. I'm not charging a f'ing fee you know? I'm not selling an f'ing book. It's not about that you know? It's about the truth. Put your fear and your pride away for a minute and ask yourself...do I want to know the truth about God? Either way...any way...whether He does or does not exist...whether Jesus was His Son or not....whether He subscribes to a particular dogma or doctrine or not....whether you can be born again or not....whether you can actually know Him and have a relationship with Him or not...DON'T YOU WANT TO KNOW???????? WHY DON'T YOU WANT TO KNOW?????????? PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO KNOW. And I assure you that is the ONLY thing that keeps them from knowing.



It is unfortunate that the very nature of strong belief in a book so full of holes works against what you desire. I would suggest that you all find a better book to use as your justification, because if you rely on this book as your justification religion as we know it is doomed to become a showpiece of superstitious nonsense, which more and more persons are determining it to be as time goes on.

For like the gazillionth time, I in no way use a book as my justification, or as the basis of my belief. My belief is based upon knowledge that was gained through personal experience and that's it. And you know, I would really love to know exactly how many times I'm gonna have to say that before anyone out here would possibly take it into consideration. The only reason, and I mean the only reason that I know the Bible to be true is because God always uses it to confirm things that I've experienced through Him in my life. So, He'll teach me something through my life experience, and then later at some point, I'll see the same thing depicted or described in scripture, and I'll be like, "Oh, wow, so that's what this scripture is talking about...now I understand." It says right in the Bible itself that it is impossible to understand without the interpretation of the Holy Spirit on a personal level, so why it is that people still keep trying to understand it without this interpretation is beyond me. Then again, I guess it serves their purpose in rationalizing their intent, which is to deny God, and to avoid sincerely seeking the truth about Him. The Bible is not meant to be used as some theology or history or science textbook....it's so beyond that. I hate to use this word, but for purposes of explanation, the Bible is like a magic book. And I say this from personal experience. There are times when I've read it and for as much as I've understood, it may as well have been written in the orginal greek, and there have been times when the Holy Spirit has lead me to scripture that has made me feel as if I was reading my own life story...history and future...but deeply, deeply personal. Personal...as it was meant to be. Person to person....spirit to spirit....you and the Holy Spirit. Again...it is entirely futile to try to "get" God by relying on yourself to do so...you may as well not even try. All you need to do is want it, and it is He who takes it from there and via His Holy Spirit. The Bible is more than just a book...it is a spiritual tool.


May be it is worth asking why we should accept that the bible and it's followers are not the product of superstition, no different to the belief that rocks with holes in them are devine or pagan whitch craft has intrinsic value.

Why should we believe that it isn't a bad case of clinging to a superstition?

You shouldn't believe anything that you don't have knowledge of yourself. You will not gain this knowledge of God from a book or from a man, but only from your own personal experience of living through it...only from Him...straight from the source. The scripture says seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened. This is law...spiritual law. You do not seek in a book, but seek God Himself. You do not knock on a man's door, or the door of a church, but call out to God Himself. "God, if you're there, if you care, I want to know it...I want to know you...show me yourself." That's it...it's that simple. And yet it is not simple because of all of the "conditions" that we want to place on Him and on the "truth" that we seek. If you sincerely seek the truth, then you seek it no matter what it is and do not place conditions on it. That is why knowledge is gained only through humility...because you have to acknowledge that you do not know already in order to seek it.

There was a time in my life when I intellectualized religion and God. I said to myself and to others that I wanted to know, but only because I rationalized that this was the correct answer to give...after all, what more important question is there to answer in this life? But sincerely, I did not want to know. It would have totally f'd up my plans for the evening...it would have been a real buzz kill. So I read books and contemplated theories and theologies and appeased my guilty conscience regarding answering the big question with what amounted to be a bunch of mental masterbation. Until something happened to me. This something was an abortion. Not judging anyone else who's had one...I had one...I know what it is, and I know what it's like. It was a culmination of things, experiences and feelings with me, but the one thing that stood out among everything else and was the primary driving force in my search was the abortion. And it made me, for the first time, really want to know. Not just to say I wanted to know...not just to read about it or theorize about it or debate it...but really want to know. I had already decided for as much reading and studying and theorizing as I had done, I would never come to truly know by these means...I needed proof. And for the first time, I sincerely wanted proof, and so I sincerely asked for it...regardless of the consequences...regardless of my weekend plans....regardless of what it meant for me and my lifestyle and my choices or whatever. I, for the first time, wanted to know the truth, no matter what the truth turned out to be, and I wanted to know for sure...without a doubt. And that is when everything changed for me. And nothing has ever been the same. It did not happen over night. Shit, it's been over a decade. But it's happened. It's happened perfectly...so that I know. And I just wish to God that everyone else wanted to know what I know now...that's my "agenda"...that's all I want. So sue me, hate me, call me a liar, call me delusional...do what you want. My intentions are sincere.

Love,

Lori

You often run into this argument when God's apparent refusal to prevent horrific things from happening is brought up; Christians will say that God doesn't use his omnipotent powers to prevent, say, a serial killer from torturing, raping, and murdering a child because God values our free will. Think about this for a minute - you're saying that God values the serial killer's right to free will more than the child's right to not be raped, tortured, and murdered. Does that really make sense to you?

I will say that yes, God values free will obviously, or these terrible things would never happen. But I will also say that God has protected me many times from harm. God has miraculously rescued people from harm. I also know that everything happens for a reason...even if what happens is horrible. He sees to it that His truth is shown in this world. Eating from the tree of knowledge is what it is. We now have knowledge of both good and evil...just like God...and now we know the difference...because we live it.

I can't explain everything, but let me share something that I realized through my own experience. I conspired and paid money to have my own child murdered. I laid my ass down on a table and allowed a doctor to vacuum the child out of my womb and chop it up to bits and throw it out with the trash with full knowledge of what he was doing. I did this for selfish reasons. Though I had rationalized at the time that I was doing it for everyone involved's own good, including my child's...when it came right down to it, I was doing it so that I would not have to face the consequences of my own foolish and selfish actions...the primary consequence being the child itself. I realized many, many years later, that this little baby...fetus...only after six weeks of life...not ever having been outside of my womb...affected more of a positive influence on this world, than I had been able to accomplish in thirty some odd years of life. A life that I lived primarily for myself. My little baby gave it's life to save it's mom's soul. This wretched mother that I am...this murderous, vile, selfish, hideous creature that would never deserve such a thing as to be forgiven or to be saved. God used the horrible and violent death of my innocent child to do something good and loving and forgiving...grace. And so when I say that I would give my life, so that God could use me in this same way, I'm not kidding...it's not lip service. I truly mean it from the bottom of my heart. It's the least I could do. And so I've given Him my life, and will continue to do so, and He can use it in whatever way He chooses. I do not deserve what He's done for me. I do not deserve the love and forgiveness that He's given me. I do not deserve the blessings that He has bestowed upon me. And to think that sometimes...shit, often times I complain and whine around selfishly about my circumstance...about it being "hard". I'm so absolutely wretched. I see this in myself, and I see His Word and His truth come to life in me. The truth about what I am...the truth about this horrid flesh that I'm in and the vile sin that resides in it. And I know that without a doubt, His Spirit is the only and I mean only good thing in me, and He is my only hope.

So, in other words...you are talking to the killer. I can only speak from my own perspective. But I can only hope that my perspective may shed a little light on an answer for someone else.


Love,

Lori

now wouldnt GOD be responsible for CREATING people wicked then?
like you say here....

thanks for the contradiction,now you know why reasonable person cannot take the bible seriously!
btw He couldnt just smite the bad fuckers instead of drowning the whole world?? :rolleyes:

The Bible says that Noah and His family were the only ones who were found to be "pure", which I'm assuming is referring to his bloodline...the purity of his genetics. I mean, the population then was not what it is today...we're probably only talking about a very localized population. And if you can imagine the effects of breeding a demi-god. These men were giants...men of renown. I'm sure it was a very popular thing to do...people signing up for it left and right....just like it will be with the mark of the beast. It will be presented as a good thing you know, not a bad thing, not an "ok" thing to do, but "the" thing to do. It will be presented as "the answer", as I'm sure this phenomenon was back then in Noah's day. Stands to reason doesn't it? Breeding with angels...I'm sure the consequence was a very powerful and very seductive one.

And yea, God knew that we would live in sin and still chose to create us. He wanted it this way. This is the only way that we know the difference between good and evil. This is the only way to have true knowledge. So He apparently wanted us to have knowledge...through experience, and not to simply be dictated to, or worse, to follow Him blindly without knowledge. And as much as it may suck to live in sin, this makes sense to me.

Love,

Lori

Lori,
I read your response, I see the strength of your conviction. I see the strength of your desire for others to experience what you have experienced.
Many years ago I too had similar experiences and wished to share and advise based on those experiences.

What I found was, that the depth of your truth is so strong that it repells people because they can't possibly understand it with out actually experiencing it for them selves.

I found also that to rely on words or intellectual discussion led only to circles, thus I dropped any mention of that which required words as the only testimony.

I took a long look at the events that were Jesus for example and I realised that to accept those events as stated in the bible unfortunately diminishes those events.

The logic that is often used in the bible limits Gods abilities to act in a sane and rational way. So therefore the bible is a poor indication of that which is God.

In the second book we have a man that ends up on a cross. The son of God sacrificed when this is not necessary. God is much more smarter than to require the painful sacrifice of a single man to prove his love for mankind.

If you go back and re-read your posts and do so imagining that the bible doesn't exist on this planet.

Center yourself in your own revelations, understand how mankind can only take words and use them in distorted ways to serve self interests and self fears.

Place no condition on what you believe and what you know. And have faith in your own relationship with God and know that all will be fine in the end.
Go sit under a tree somewhere and feel what you have, and realise that you do not have to do anything.

"And when God came to town the first thing he did was order all bibles to be destroyed and a new bible to be written, because the bible was his greatest liability, If only because the words of the past are words of the past, and only words of the NOW are relevant "

No, I have never been abducted by aliens. In my opinion, these Nephilim were totally human, just that their bodies were bigger than ours.

Yorda,

I wanted to apologize for asking you that question. It was a flippant and callous remark. I shouldn't have inquired in that manner...maybe not inquired at all. I had read some of your posts and seemed to recognize "the voice". See, I don't believe that aliens are what most people think they are, but that the abduction phenomenon is a spiritual one. You are obviously enlightened by some spiritual source.

Love,

Lori

Hi Quantum Quack,

Quote QQ:
"The logic that is often used in the bible limits Gods abilities to act in a sane and rational way. So therefore the bible is a poor indication of that which is God.

In the second book we have a man that ends up on a cross. The son of God sacrificed when this is not necessary. God is much more smarter than to require the painful sacrifice of a single man to prove his love for mankind.

If you go back and re-read your posts and do so imagining that the bible doesn't exist on this planet.

Center yourself in your own revelations, understand how mankind can only take words and use them in distorted ways to serve self interests and self fears.

Place no condition on what you believe and what you know. And have faith in your own relationship with God and know that all will be fine in the end.
Go sit under a tree somewhere and feel what you have, and realise that you do not have to do anything."

Good to hear your words, I can absolutely relate. Many years ago, when trying to find the answers to why so many cruel events had happened to me, I received the understanding that the simple answer was just "because". It had nothing to do with god, sin or bad luck. Pathetic as it may sound, this insight changed my life. I could break out of "victim" mode and fall effortlessly into "grateful" mode. So simply put, in my humble opinion, religion and its accompanying dogma create nothing but distance between man and god. Religion absolutely limits god to the human arena.

Ahem.

So simply put, in my humble opinion, religion and its accompanying dogma create nothing but distance between man and god. Religion absolutely limits god to the human arena.

It is good to hear someone else shares a point of view, Stretched.

I have often argued that religion re-inforces the separated state of man and God rather than brings us all together.

When I was a kid learning about religion and standing in a school church service the priest asked all us kids to pray and I said to my self, If I have to pray to be heard then something aint right in ole' heaven, as God hears everything.........maybe I should write my prayers down and post them to my self...[chuckle] at least I would get to know what I prayed.....ha

The Christian idea of God does limit God terribly and so to do most religions.

In the main they must think God is an imbicile, an entity that has no intelligence, which funnilly enough isn't that far from the truth I reckon, in that God needs not intelligence as he IS intelligence.

The externalising of God by man is in the middle of the whole problem.
We pass the buck, we blame and thank something that we think is separate from us yet all the time it IS us.

Why is there suffering ? Because God chooses to suffer. Why do we suffer?Because we choose to suffer.
God suffers with us have no doubt. When you suffer the news of sadistic crimes and suffer so too does God. When you don't suffer from the news of sadistic crimes well neither does God.

So in this way God is suffering just like you and you and you and me.

This is my take on it......

If you feel the pain of someone elses suffering or even your own then just remember God is suffering though you as well.

Lori, it's cool.

I didn't know you we're trying to 'say' something. I thought you were just asking a question.

It's not easy to recognize "the voice" of people whom we don't meet face to face, so we should never condemn, unless God says it's Ok.

I'm don't know if all alien abductions are spiritual.

No one can have anything unless God gives it.

No one can have anything unless God gives it.

Then we are nothing; mere insignificant motes in the darkness. If it is not really a painter painting, then why paint? If anything an archetect designs will be only something from god, why have anything built. I prefer to think that god, if he exists, set up the laws of the universe in such a way that they promote complexity and then let it to its own course.

Perhaps hell would be better in your case, at least if you consider it to be any place away from god. At least there, what little you can make is made alone and is something you can be proud of.

Perhaps hell would be better in your case, at least if you consider it to be any place away from god. At least there, what little you can make is made alone and is something you can be proud of.
And herein lies teh nub of the whole issue. WE are separate from God because we want to do it ourselves....and suffer the consequences accordingly.
However I would argue that being one with God [the universe] does not in any way undermine your own self inspiration in fact being one with God can only enhance your self inspiration....as you draw on his infinite wisdom and presence. [Which is what we already do every moment of our lives anyway....]

You see a vacant block of land and you build upon it a house of your choosing. All aspects are God inspired. for with out God [universe] there is no land or ability to build a house etc etc.....
The universe determines what we do with our lives, is this so bad.....it is only when you grant God the ability to make decisions in a human way that you loose your sense of individuality and self inspiration.

Would not being one with god be akin to a drop of water falling into an ocean? Once in, you can pull another drop out of the ocean, but it will never be the same drop. It would even be infinitly worse with god as he is, after all, supposedly infinite.

God may very well have tweaked the universe in such a way that bricks and wood and cement are all possible... but there are an infinite number of possible combinations of assorted mediums.

I like to think that he may have plopped down the paint and the canvas, but stayed apart from the act of painting itself. I also like to think that sapience would have formed and made something out of anything he layed down, no matter what it was.

Lori, it's cool.

I didn't know you we're trying to 'say' something. I thought you were just asking a question.

It's not easy to recognize "the voice" of people whom we don't meet face to face, so we should never condemn, unless God says it's Ok.

I'm don't know if all alien abductions are spiritual.

No one can have anything unless God gives it.

I meant that I thought I recognized "the voice" of your source of enlightenment, not your voice. That's why I thought that you may have been abducted.

Love,

Lori

Oh... ok... But as I said, I've not been abducted, I just have a bad life. Suffering leads to much knowledge... Sometimes.

What no one seems to have addressed is this...

Let's suppose free will completely answers the question of evil. Let's suppose that it is our free will, and our free choice to do evil, and not God's. Let's suppose that the only way God could eliminate evil would be to rob us of our free will. Let us also suppose that the other bad things that happen to us, which don't have to do with human choice, happen for a good reason (to teach life lessons, to make the timeline work out, whatever).

Let's assume ALL of that is true. Now...

Why did god create us? To worship Him is what I've heard.

So, God is a perfect being, meaning that he doesn't NEED to have us worship him for his survival right?

He's also a being that can tell the future, including our future choices right?

So why would a perfect and good being choose to create a universe and a free-willed people that he knows will make choices that result in massive suffering? Why would he create them deficient of the knowledge that only the lessons of suffering could teach?

So far, the picture looks like this...

Although he didn't require them, God desired some beings to worship him out of free will. Therefore, he created a universe, which would essentially be a big grinding machine which would create billions and billions of these people. The nature of this universe is that these people would suffer. There would also be additional suffering because of the choices many of these free-willed people would make (and he knew this for a fact). When it was all said and done, the majority of these people would be cast into hell. But, the remainder who chose him freely would be brought to heaven so he could have his worshippers.

Does this seem ethical to you?

Edit: Is "wanting worshippers" a good enough reason to create beings that you know will freely choose to commit evil acts? Wouldn't it have been more ethical to just go without worshippers than do it this way? It's a good thing this model is monotheistic because If I was God, I'd never admit to my other god-buddies what I had been up to here.

Oh... ok... But as I said, I've not been abducted, I just have a bad life. Suffering leads to much knowledge... Sometimes.

Well good, I'm glad that you haven't been abducted. And I hope that you have found relief in truth.

Love,

Lori

Tiberius1701,
The conflict of logic/morality/ethics only comes about when God is granted the limitations as set out in a 2000 year old book.

Is it possible that God as described by these books has yet to evolve, that he is less sentient than we are?

Is it possible that the universe [God] is just some fantastic organism that functions on auto pilot with out a ruler at it's helm.

Is it possible that God is looking outwards and relying on what is within him [us] to maintain his existence just like we do?

I have often thought that man kinds quest for self determination is the same quest that God has. If Man is a reflection of God then maybe to acheive self determination man and God must create their own individual reflection and not the same shared reflection.

Maybe man as creeated to help facilitate Gods desire to acheive self determination by using mankind etc as a vehicle in that quest.

Just some thoughts :)

Yo,

Are we the dream, or are we the dreamer?

Ahem.

Are we the dream, or are we the dreamer?

I am the dreamer, but I'm not conscious about that so that makes me a dream.

What no one seems to have addressed is this...

Let's suppose free will completely answers the question of evil. Let's suppose that it is our free will, and our free choice to do evil, and not God's. Let's suppose that the only way God could eliminate evil would be to rob us of our free will. Let us also suppose that the other bad things that happen to us, which don't have to do with human choice, happen for a good reason (to teach life lessons, to make the timeline work out, whatever).

The only way to eliminate evil is not to rob us of free will. If evil comes from a trangression of law, then you may eliminate evil by choosing of your free will not to transgress the law, and you make this choice given your knowledge of the evil consequences of doing so...in understanding brought about by experience.

Let's assume ALL of that is true. Now...

Why did god create us? To worship Him is what I've heard.

Where did you hear that? He made us to commune with Him. Why do people have children? Well, lets try to eliminate selfish intentions like to suck some child support out of some man, or to suck some welfare dollars out of the govt...but in a purest sense, supposedly without sinful intent, why would a person have a child? To love and to hope to be loved...to share love...to commune with...to have a family.

The worship comes as a result of this communion and the knowledge that it brings of God and His love and His character. The definition of worship is to "treat somebody or something as a deity" and to "love somebody deeply". I can only speak for myself here, but to worship Him is not even a choice really...it's just a natural outcome of experiencing who He is in my life. You just can't help it. He is all powerful, all knowing, full of unconditional love and grace that has had the most profound impact of me and on my life...He's changed everything for me...He's made it all worth while...He's given me so much hope when there was none...He's made a way out of what seemed impossible and in ruins....He has restored. He has blessed me in unimaginable ways. People whine that God is not fair....no, He is not fair...grace is definitely not fair...but I tell you what...it will melt your hard heart into a big ol' puddle of love. So, worship is just a natural result of realizing through experience that God is who He says He is...and that knowledge results in a profound respect, love, admiration, trust, and reliance that manifests itself in "worship". You know, church people pretend that worship is when they go to a church on some particular day, and sing what are usually really hideous sounding songs and clap their hands and pray for a minute...dance around a little maybe...I don't know. But those of us who actually are the church know that worship is given your whole life...giving your whole life to Him...to live for Him and in His will to the best of your ability 24/7....to desire for Him to live through you...you being the temple of the Holy Spirit, a vessel for His love and power to move through. And you do this because through knowledge of Him, you realize that this is the best possible use of your life....best for you and best for everyone around you...you do this out of love, but it's also just a matter of making a sound decision. Like I said, once you know Him, it's like you almost don't have a choice because to do anything else just seems like such a stupid idea...destructive even....self-destructive...counter-productive....selfish and malicious even...sadistic and masochistic.

So, like a good parent, He earns your respect and admiration and love and trust, and you wish to commune with Him according to His law because of this.


So, God is a perfect being, meaning that he doesn't NEED to have us worship him for his survival right?

Right.

He's also a being that can tell the future, including our future choices right?

Right.


So why would a perfect and good being choose to create a universe and a free-willed people that he knows will make choices that result in massive suffering? Why would he create them deficient of the knowledge that only the lessons of suffering could teach?

There is good too...we have both. How would we come to have this inherent knowledge of something so vast and that we have never experienced? What you are proposing is that we would be born with all of the knowledge that we had acquired by the time of our death, and who's to say about reincarnation and even more knowledge acquired through it. How can you acquire knowledge without being taught? How can you achieve knowledge without experience? Without being God that is...


So far, the picture looks like this...

Although he didn't require them, God desired some beings to worship him out of free will. Therefore, he created a universe, which would essentially be a big grinding machine which would create billions and billions of these people. The nature of this universe is that these people would suffer. There would also be additional suffering because of the choices many of these free-willed people would make (and he knew this for a fact). When it was all said and done, the majority of these people would be cast into hell. But, the remainder who chose him freely would be brought to heaven so he could have his worshippers.

God desired love and to be loved. Therefore He created children and a universe for them to live in. The nature of the universe is to maintain an eternal perfect balance according to His law. But for a relatively short time, He allowed for the transgression of this law, according to His children's free will, which caused much suffering, death, and destruction. So that when it was all said and done, He would end up with children who desired to live with Him in love and communion and according to His law, and therefore eternally, voluntarily and of their own free will, and according to their own knowledge.

Here it is in a nutshell...He has created every one of us...and given every one of us a choice...do you wish to continue to live or not? And He abides by your decision, and ensures that you have the knowledge with which to make one.



Does this seem ethical to you?

Yes, it does.

Edit: Is "wanting worshippers" a good enough reason to create beings that you know will freely choose to commit evil acts? Wouldn't it have been more ethical to just go without worshippers than do it this way? It's a good thing this model is monotheistic because If I was God, I'd never admit to my other god-buddies what I had been up to here.

I'm not trying to be critical or whatever, but it seems that you're not looking at the big picture. This evil has a purpose, and once served will be ridden of our own free will choice, made according to this knowledge of it. This evil is not all there is...this flesh is not all there is....this is just a very necessary step along the way to something perfect and eternal and void of evil. But you have to know what it is that you're avoiding and understand how to avoid it first, in order to do so.

Love,

Lori

Tiberius1701,
The conflict of logic/morality/ethics only comes about when God is granted the limitations as set out in a 2000 year old book.

Is it possible that God as described by these books has yet to evolve, that he is less sentient than we are?

Is it possible that the universe [God] is just some fantastic organism that functions on auto pilot with out a ruler at it's helm.

Is it possible that God is looking outwards and relying on what is within him [us] to maintain his existence just like we do?

I have often thought that man kinds quest for self determination is the same quest that God has. If Man is a reflection of God then maybe to acheive self determination man and God must create their own individual reflection and not the same shared reflection.

Maybe man as creeated to help facilitate Gods desire to acheive self determination by using mankind etc as a vehicle in that quest.

Just some thoughts :)

I agree, but my arguments are specifically made with reference to the conservative Christian god - I should have made that more clear, but many of the posts on this thread which I was responding to were already taking that line. But you're correct. :)

The only way to eliminate evil is not to rob us of free will. If evil comes from a trangression of law, then you may eliminate evil by choosing of your free will not to transgress the law, and you make this choice given your knowledge of the evil consequences of doing so...in understanding brought about by experience.


No, I mean the only way God could eliminate evil would be to remove humans of their free will, since it is inevitable when creating billions of people that some will choose evil. Human beings are not perfect.


Where did you hear that? He made us to commune with Him.


Ok, so he wanted people to commune with. The argument still works in either case.


There is good too...we have both.


Yes, but even though there is good, the point still stands - God created a universe he knew would contain evil for his own selfish ends (to have people to commune with).


How would we come to have this inherent knowledge of something so vast and that we have never experienced?


Because God is allegedly all powerful - he can do anything. And that includes making a being which already contains knowledge of the things it would have learned through a life of suffering. It should be a sinch.


What you are proposing is that we would be born with all of the knowledge that we had acquired by the time of our death, and who's to say about reincarnation and even more knowledge acquired through it. How can you acquire knowledge without being taught? How can you achieve knowledge without experience?


Your brain (or soul) is in a certain state before an experience, and a certain state after an experience. Experiences change the nature, structure, and state of your brain (and presumeably soul). If God can create one structure he can create another. He could have created the entire universe one hour ago, complete with full memories everyone had of all preceding events and world history. He could have made sure to include this forum in his creation, along with your memory of writing your last post, even though it didn't actually happened.

So, when the whole world history is complete and all the badies have gone to hell and all the goodies are with him in heaven communing, then that will be the state of things. He could have just created that state, along with the inner knowledge and nature of all beings involved just as they will be, without ever having created a universe with so much suffering.


God desired love and to be loved.


Yes and to fulfill that desire he would go to any lengths, including creating a universe in which he knew there would be massive suffering. It's not like having kids because parents can't control the universe. If they could, they would ensure that their children did not suffer.


But for a relatively short time, He allowed for the transgression of this law, according to His children's free will, which caused much suffering, death, and destruction.


Which he knew would happen when he created them. A murderer may have free will too, but if I open his jail cell and release him out into the world, am I not responsible in some regard? God unleashed all sorts of horrors on his children, including certain children that he knew would freely choose evil upon the others.


I'm not trying to be critical or whatever, but it seems that you're not looking at the big picture. This evil has a purpose, and once served will be ridden of our own free will choice, made according to this knowledge of it. This evil is not all there is...this flesh is not all there is....this is just a very necessary step along the way to something perfect and eternal and void of evil. But you have to know what it is that you're avoiding and understand how to avoid it first, in order to do so.


Why would I need to learn how to avoid something that will eventually be gone?

If you say that evil is truly going to be gone, then that means no one will have the ability to choose to do evil once in heaven. If that is true, then our entire ride here is pointless. He could have just created people that coudn't do evil to begin with.

On the other hand, if you say that evil will be removed but our ability to choose evil will continue, then evil will not truly be removed because if so many people have the ability to choose evil for ALL eternity, then eventually someone will.

And, aside from the question above, you still have the fact that an all powerful god could have created entities already aware of the lessons he's teaching them with evil now. Through god all things are allegedly possible so that means evil isn't necessary. For ANYTHING to be necessary would mean that there would have to be some things God can't do.

So, either God is not all good, or he's not all powerful. The two cannot logically both be true given the universe we live in.

As mentioned by Quantum Quack, there may be other sorts of general god/s which are logically possible. But the one being discssed here is flat out impossible.

No, I mean the only way God could eliminate evil would be to remove humans of their free will, since it is inevitable when creating billions of people that some will choose evil. Human beings are not perfect.

Well, instead of eliminating free will, it seems that He is eliminating those who use their free will to choose evil. See, it's according to His law that states that the result of sin is death. So the result of the transgression of his law is death. So to use your free will to choose to trangress His law is really to choose to eliminate yourself. You choose...do I want eternal life...or do I want death? He gives you what you want.


Yes, but even though there is good, the point still stands - God created a universe he knew would contain evil for his own selfish ends (to have people to commune with).

So are you saying that every person who bears children throughout the entire history of this planet, knowing that evil exists is selfish, and is doing so selfishly? We all should have stopped having sex long ago and perpetuate the extinction of our species to spare the future generation any suffering? Are you saying that it's better not to live at all, than to live a life with suffering and then die? I also think that you might be forgetting how long eternity is. This time spent with evil in our midst is infinitesmal.

Don't you want to live? Don't you want to exist? I do. And I live in the same world that you do. I didn't used to be too keen on this life, but I could never kill myself because I knew that there may be something so much more than this. Now that I know Him, things are so much different. Now, even though this world sucks, He has blessed me so much that I have a hard time imagining anything any better than this...even in His Kingdom...which I know is incorrect in thinking...it's just that He's made things so good for me here...I could have never imagined it being this good, or anything close to it, much less how it will be in His Kingdom. So recently, I've been hoping for time...lots of time left, here on this sucky planet, to enjoy the life that I've been given in Him.



Because God is allegedly all powerful - he can do anything. And that includes making a being which already contains knowledge of the things it would have learned through a life of suffering. It should be a sinch.



Your brain (or soul) is in a certain state before an experience, and a certain state after an experience. Experiences change the nature, structure, and state of your brain (and presumeably soul). If God can create one structure he can create another. He could have created the entire universe one hour ago, complete with full memories everyone had of all preceding events and world history. He could have made sure to include this forum in his creation, along with your memory of writing your last post, even though it didn't actually happened.

So, when the whole world history is complete and all the badies have gone to hell and all the goodies are with him in heaven communing, then that will be the state of things. He could have just created that state, along with the inner knowledge and nature of all beings involved just as they will be, without ever having created a universe with so much suffering.


Sooooo, you want God to brainwash you instead of allowing you to actually live? That's....weird. Reminds me of that Schwartzenegger movie...the one that Sharon Stone kicks ass in right? You know, and they had that place you could go to have vacation memories implanted into your brain. Did you see that movie cause I think it may just provide an answer to your suggestion. Which begs the question...how would you know that the knowledge that He implanted in you was the truth? Talk about a lack of free will...you would rather be some programmed robot-like being? That would take away all of your free will as you would have absolutely no choices at all regarding your experience in life...you wouldn't have a life...it would be imaginery. Brainwashing and spoonfeeding is not how God operates...ironically, it is however how the "other side" operates.


Yes and to fulfill that desire he would go to any lengths, including creating a universe in which he knew there would be massive suffering. It's not like having kids because parents can't control the universe. If they could, they would ensure that their children did not suffer.

As you suggested before...they could not have them in the first place...knowing that suffering exists

And like I said, the only reason that the suffering seems so "massive" to you is because the life of your flesh is all you see and believe in. And because you see no purpose in it other than suffering for the sake of suffering. This life of suffering is a mere blink of an eye compared to the eternal life of your spirit....that if you choose this eternal life, will live forever in love joy and peace.




Which he knew would happen when he created them. A murderer may have free will too, but if I open his jail cell and release him out into the world, am I not responsible in some regard? God unleashed all sorts of horrors on his children, including certain children that he knew would freely choose evil upon the others.

He also offers them protection, provision, redemption, restoration, and salvation in Christ. And for all of the horror, gee, you would think that more people would take Him up on it huh?



Why would I need to learn how to avoid something that will eventually be gone?

Because given the premise of free will, it will only be gone because you have learned how to avoid it and why you should.


If you say that evil is truly going to be gone, then that means no one will have the ability to choose to do evil once in heaven. If that is true, then our entire ride here is pointless. He could have just created people that coudn't do evil to begin with.

People will still have free will, and still have the ability, but they will choose not to because after all, knowing what they know from living here and now, WHY WOULD THEY CHOOSE TO? Fact is that God knows what we will choose before we ever do, so ultimately, the ones who will be saved are the ones who, by their own choice, and by their own desire, will live according to His law.


On the other hand, if you say that evil will be removed but our ability to choose evil will continue, then evil will not truly be removed because if so many people have the ability to choose evil for ALL eternity, then eventually someone will.

Not if they don't exist anymore they won't. God already knows what everyone will eventually choose for all of eternity. I can't really get my head around that either, but that's not surprising, as I am only human.

And, aside from the question above, you still have the fact that an all powerful god could have created entities already aware of the lessons he's teaching them with evil now. Through god all things are allegedly possible so that means evil isn't necessary. For ANYTHING to be necessary would mean that there would have to be some things God can't do.

God IS doing it...His way...which is the best way...the perfect way. Now, that doesn't mean that this is the only way, just the best way. And the best way for us, whether you see it or not. He always acts in our best interest, you just can't see all of what God can see. But, when you create your own universe, and your own species, then you can decide what's best for them...like brainwashing them perhaps...into choosing whatever you want them to choose....thereby eliminating their free will. You could call them muppets. Muppets are damn cute aren't they?



So, either God is not all good, or he's not all powerful. The two cannot logically both be true given the universe we live in.


As mentioned by Quantum Quack, there may be other sorts of general god/s which are logically possible. But the one being discssed here is flat out impossible.

I contest, as I have found flaws in the logic that you are using. God is indeed both all good and all powerful...and all knowing. We are not all knowing...not sure that I would even want to be...but we can know Him, and in doing that, we can know everything we need to know, to ensure an eternal life of love peace and joy.

Love,

Lori

Lori,

It wouldn't be "brainwashing" for him to create beings that already had knowledge. They would still have free will, they would just simply be aware of certain information. He could have created people with him in heaven already, who were knowledgeable of all the life's lessons that they are currently learning through pain and suffering.

As for the ones that he knows will choose evil, he could simply just not create them in the first place.

That would be a universe with no evil, no suffering, AND free will. But, he didn't do that it seems. (of course, as you know, I don't believe this entity exists but we're assuming that for now, for the sake of the discussion)

Lori,

It wouldn't be "brainwashing" for him to create beings that already had knowledge. They would still have free will, they would just simply be aware of certain information. He could have created people with him in heaven already, who were knowledgeable of all the life's lessons that they are currently learning through pain and suffering.

As for the ones that he knows will choose evil, he could simply just not create them in the first place.

That would be a universe with no evil, no suffering, AND free will. But, he didn't do that it seems. (of course, as you know, I don't believe this entity exists but we're assuming that for now, for the sake of the discussion)

Maybe it's me, but I can't figure out how you would know, without experience, whether the "implanted" knowledge was the truth or not. It would be the same thing as taking someone's word for something, or accepting something that you read in a book as the truth. In my experience, the only way to have true knowledge of something is to live through it. I mean, to try to "imagine" the consequence of sin...even with a true and accurate description...it just wouldn't do it justice. How can you know what it's like to have a broken heart without ever having one? You can't.

And to not create those who would choose evil would be taking away their free will. Because they choose to die. They are created, and given life, and given knowledge, and given a choice...do you want to live forever or not? And they get what they want. To have never been created, they would have never been given a choice. Right?

Love,

Lori

[QUOTE=Zero Mass]Answer this riddle, and tr not to use the term "free will":

depends on your definition of evil. who says death is the ultimate evil in the world? God doesn't allow or disallow anything. what happens to us in this world is the product of our actions.

Many many people would consider death to be a blessing, if anything to end interminable suffering due to severe illness or accident.....

I've always loved this conundrum from Bertrand Russell's An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish:
There are logical difficulties in the notion of sin. We are told that sin consists in disobedience to God's commands, but we are also told that God is omnipotent. If He is, nothing contrary to His will can occur; therefore when the sinner disobeys His commands, He must have intended this to happen. St. Augustine boldly accepts this view, and asserts that men are led to sin by a blindness with which God afflicts them. But most theologians, in modern times, have felt that, if God causes men to sin, it is not fair to send them to hell for what they cannot help. We are told that sin consists in acting contrary to God's will. This, however, does not get rid of the difficulty. Those who, like Spinoza, take God's omnipotence seriously, deduce that there can be no such thing as sin. This leads to frightful results. What! said Spinoza's contemporaries, was it not wicked of Nero to murder his mother? Was it not wicked of Adam to eat the apple? Is one action just as good as another? Spinoza wriggles, but does not find any satisfactory answer. If everything happens in accordance with God's will, God must have wanted Nero to murder his mother; therefore, since God is good, the murder must have been a good thing. From this argument there is no escape.

http://www.luminary.us/russell/intellectual_rubbish.html


or maybve God is omnipotent and life is just a great big test that we all are taking to get to next level. and GOd has all the answers already.http://sciforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=721727#

or maybe nero's wife would have been instrumental in the deaths of millions if she had lived.....or maybe her pet dog was....

Maybe it's me, but I can't figure out how you would know, without experience, whether the "implanted" knowledge was the truth or not. It would be the same thing as taking someone's word for something, or accepting something that you read in a book as the truth. In my experience, the only way to have true knowledge of something is to live through it. I mean, to try to "imagine" the consequence of sin...even with a true and accurate description...it just wouldn't do it justice. How can you know what it's like to have a broken heart without ever having one? You can't.


If God were all powerful then he could make a person who knew what it was like to have a broken heart, even though they never had. By saying this is impossible, you are saying that God is not all powerful.


And to not create those who would choose evil would be taking away their free will. Because they choose to die.


No, it would be choosing not to make them so they never would have existed. You can't take away something from someone that never existed. That's like saying people without kids are commiting child abuse because they are not allowing those new children to exist. I'm sorry, but your point here is just plain comical.


They are created, and given life, and given knowledge, and given a choice...do you want to live forever or not? And they get what they want.


Do you really believe that there are people who think that there is a God and a divine Jesus, who simply choose not to be saved? Do you really believe that people can choose what they believe or not? You can't help whether or not you believe something. You can choose to act like you believed something, but whether or not you really believe something is based on your experience and how it has convinced you of various things. That's like saying that you yourself could cimply "choose" to believe that Klingons are real and then you would really believe it deep down. There is no choice in what we believe or don't believe, it simply comes to us. You yourself aren't choosing to believe in God, you believe it because you have become convinced of it through your experiences. The belief that the people going to hell under your world view are "choosing" to is just a rationalization to make the obviously unjust worldview seem just.

If God were all powerful then he could make a person who knew what it was like to have a broken heart, even though they never had. By saying this is impossible, you are saying that God is not all powerful.

How could you know without ever having one? You say, he could implant the knowledge in your head. I'm asking then, how would you know that the knowledge that He implanted was actually the truth? Maybe it would not really be the truth, but just what He wanted you to believe. I'm not saying that what you are suggesting is impossible. What I am saying is that it is not the best way. God always chooses the best way....the perfect way actually...for us. See, the whole point is that God does not want us to be spoon fed information, but to learn from experience. Knowledge comes from personal experience, not from rote memory, not from a book, not from someone else's experience. He doesn't want to just tell us "this is how it is and this is what you should believe because I say so"...He want's you to actually understand and decide what to believe on your own through your own experience. Don't you see that what you are suggesting would do nothing but create a bunch of mindless thoughtless unquestioning robots?

Then again, who is to say that it would change anything? After all, we can all look around and see the horrible effects of sin in this world...all the pain, suffering, and death. And do we stop sinning? No. Do people still choose to do evil? Yea, all the time. So apparently, He could very well implant all of this knowledge of the horrible consequences of sin into our brains and we would still choose to sin. After all, it's in our nature...the propensity to sin is encoded genetically into our flesh. So then you say, what if Adam and Eve knew of the consequence of sin... what if they new of the horrible effects of it because He implanted these "fake memories" in their heads. Wouldn't they have chosen not to sin? The answer is apparently no, because they were told by God Himself that if they ate of the tree of knowledge that they would surely die. Satan comes along and says what? "God's a liar...you won't die, you'll get to be like Him because of what you will learn". And they ate. So if God had implanted the fake memories in their heads, all Satan would have to do is come along and say "God's a liar...what He implanted in your head is a lie...you won't die, you'll get to be like Him because of what you will learn". It really wouldn't change the scenario that much at all. At least this way, we know that what we're experiencing is real and that it is true.




No, it would be choosing not to make them so they never would have existed. You can't take away something from someone that never existed. That's like saying people without kids are commiting child abuse because they are not allowing those new children to exist. I'm sorry, but your point here is just plain comical.

Well I'm glad that I could give you a chuckle...if there's one thing I'm good for....

He can take away the person's opportunity to live. He can take away the person's opportunity to trangress His law. I'm sorry but I'm a Christian, and what you're suggesting doesn't even sound right to me. It's sounds...very...Nazi-ish.

I mean, for this parent to not allow those new children to exist simply because He knows that at some point in their lives they will disobey Him, or make an honest mistake even? That just sounds really wrong to me.

If "pre-programming" us wouldn't keep us from challenging Him and His law, then the only thing that would keep us from doing it is not creating us in the first place. To only create a species that would never choose to transgress His law would be taking away our free will. Simply because it is apparent that we are not that species. I don't think myself or anyone else any better or smarter than Adam or Eve...rather apparently given a good deal of my behaviour and choices. If He were to create a different species...one that would never think to challenge Him...to never seek knowledge and understanding through their own experience...to never ask for "proof" of what He says is true...it would be a species very different from our own. And as much as it may suck to live in a world of sin, I would think that this proposed alternative species would not be nearly as glorious as we are, and will be. They would merely be puppets...drones. I don't blame God for not wanting to commune with a bunch of unquestioning, unthinking drones who lack knowledge and understanding of Him and His law...I don't blame Him a bit.




Do you really believe that there are people who think that there is a God and a divine Jesus, who simply choose not to be saved? Do you really believe that people can choose what they believe or not? You can't help whether or not you believe something. You can choose to act like you believed something, but whether or not you really believe something is based on your experience and how it has convinced you of various things. That's like saying that you yourself could cimply "choose" to believe that Klingons are real and then you would really believe it deep down. There is no choice in what we believe or don't believe, it simply comes to us. You yourself aren't choosing to believe in God, you believe it because you have become convinced of it through your experiences. The belief that the people going to hell under your world view are "choosing" to is just a rationalization to make the obviously unjust worldview seem just.

Yes, I most certainly do believe it, I've lived it myself, and I see it around me every day of my life. Certainly you know of people who live their entire lives so deeply in denial about certain things that you would think them to be insane...blind...deaf...dumb...not to see the obvious right in front of their face. And not something that is insignificant, but something that is absolutely ruining their lives...causing them so much strife and grief and pain and sickness...something that is killing them! And they look the other way, and deny, deny, deny, until they allow it to take them to their graves.

I believe in God because of my experiences yes...I asked for proof and He gave it to me in spades. But I did not have to ask for it. Many, many people live through the same things that I did, and suffer the same way that I did, and they do not ask for the truth from God...they do not ask for what I asked for. It is definitely a choice. Some people just do not want to know the truth about Him. I didn't at one time in my life...I know what it feels like to not want to know. It's too consequential...it's too humbling...and it makes you afraid. You're afraid of Him....judgement...condemnation...what it will all mean for your life...your lifestyle. You look at "church people" and say "Good God, I'll have to turn into one of those? No way!" People don't realize that there is nothing to fear...that all of that perceived negativity comes from a lie...a deadly lie...that they choose to believe because it justifies their aversion to Him...an inherent one that is caused by the sin of our flesh. People don't want to know about their sin....they don't want to face it. But I tell you sincerely...please believe me...that there is NO condemnation from God...and that judgement is nothing more than the truth shown in the light of His love. God is love.

Love,

Lori

Lori,

When I said that your statement about not creating someone is denying them something seemed comical to me, I was trying to convey to you how far from my conception it was. In retrospect, it sounded very insensitive and I shouldn't have phrased it that way - sorry.

As for choosing beliefs, I know the type of person you're talking about. Those who just reject something because they don't want to believe it. But I think you're not putting yourself in other people's shoes very well. To many people, Christianity seems as far off from reality as Hinduism probably seems to you.

For instance, if you died and then found out that Hinduism had it right and you're going to pay for not being a Hindu during your life, would you think that was reasonable or fair? Then they would say, ah yes, but you lived in a world full of Hindu teachings and you rejected them all, so you should have nothing to complain about.

Of course, this would be unfair, for you did not grow up in a culture as familiar with Hinduism as with Christianity, so it probably just seems like some outside weird thing to you. We all have free will to choose between different options, but what we cannot control is our perception of the worthiness of those options. Maybe you could choose to live as an Islamist, but what you can't choose is your perception that Islam and Hinduism and Humanism are less true and less good of a choice. And, of course, we all choose what we believe to be the most beneficial choice.

So, by the same token, when I look at Christianity, I have a certain perception of it, not unlike your perception of Satanism. I can't help the fact that this is my impression. I can listen to the arguments of people like yourselves, read, explore, consider carefully, etc. But my experiences are not your experiences and so the perception that forms in me of the value of these different choices is going to be different than yours. It is this perception we have of the relative values between the different options that we cannot control - it's not that nonbelievers are people of malintent, as you suggest.

But instead of really placing yourself in my shoes, you are conceptualizing the situation as though I were like you but behaving differently. In other words, you imagine what you would have to be like to do and say the things I am doing, and you imagine a person who is rejecting what they "know" to be right. But this is not the case. I am a person who is following what I truely believe is the right, just, and moral course of action.

You are not a person who really knows that Hinduism or Budhism is the right way but are rejecting it out of arrogance, pride, or evil are you? Certainly not, and most non-Christians are likewise not as you paint them.

Lori,

When I said that your statement about not creating someone is denying them something seemed comical to me, I was trying to convey to you how far from my conception it was. In retrospect, it sounded very insensitive and I shouldn't have phrased it that way - sorry.

That's ok...it wasn't that insensitive. I wasn't offended at all. But thanks for the apology anyway...you seem very conscientious, and I like that.



As for choosing beliefs, I know the type of person you're talking about. Those who just reject something because they don't want to believe it. But I think you're not putting yourself in other people's shoes very well. To many people, Christianity seems as far off from reality as Hinduism probably seems to you.

For instance, if you died and then found out that Hinduism had it right and you're going to pay for not being a Hindu during your life, would you think that was reasonable or fair? Then they would say, ah yes, but you lived in a world full of Hindu teachings and you rejected them all, so you should have nothing to complain about.

Hinduism really doesn't seem so far off to me at all. Hinduism though is kind of the "opposite of" Christianity in a way...because Hinduism allows for all other religions and faiths to also be true. Which makes it a really bad example of what you're talking about...lol...but I still get your point. :)

While Hinduism is not exclusive at all, Christianity is completely exclusive...which is your point of contention here...but is also what made it stand out to me, when I was studying all of the major world religions. This exclusivity made me question it's validity more than any other religion that I studied. No other religion attests to God coming to earth in the form of a man. No other religion provides a Saviour in the form of God himself...or a Saviour at all...most others only provide doctrine that contains suggestions or rules for behaviour that is supposed to help you promote yourself...and provides nothing to be "saved" from. No other religion attests to this Holy Spirit and a personal relationship with God enabled through it...a communication by way of it between yourself and God Himself. No other religion attests to this spiritual rebirth that is no consequence of your own actions but only to seek God Himself, and so is a consequence of God's actions. All other religions attest to enlightenment being a consequence of things that you do yourself to achieve it. Most other religions promote controlling your behaviours and actions in life by your own will to achieve enlightenment, where as Christianity promotes completely giving up your will and your life to God in order to achieve enlightenment by His behaviours and actions presented to and through you...given this personal relationship that comes by rebirth and by His Spirit.



Of course, this would be unfair, for you did not grow up in a culture as familiar with Hinduism as with Christianity, so it probably just seems like some outside weird thing to you. We all have free will to choose between different options, but what we cannot control is our perception of the worthiness of those options. Maybe you could choose to live as an Islamist, but what you can't choose is your perception that Islam and Hinduism and Humanism are less true and less good of a choice. And, of course, we all choose what we believe to be the most beneficial choice.

I grew up in a culture that for the most part denies God entirely, except for when they want to take His name in vain, and use it to serve some selfish intention. At the very least, most people throw His name around in complete ignorance, without any true knowledge of Him at all. They may as well be talking about Elvis.

The question is why is your perception what it is? What makes it up and why is it that you perceive one choice as more benefical than another? You are saying that it is what you are exposed to through your culture or through a choice of particular doctrines given your exposure to those doctrines. I disagree with you when you say that you can not choose your perception...I see that people do this all of the time, in that they choose to believe what they want to believe for whatever reason. The reason being that, as you've stated, the beliefs seems most beneficial to them in some way, whether it's because it fits in with their culture or what society accepts, or because it's what their family dictates, or because it makes for a comfortable and desired lifestyle, or for whatever reason. And you see then that people then accept information that supports their chosen belief as true and reject information that is contradictory to it as false. And it creates a paradigm...a perception is a paradigm...that in no way has to be deemed to be the truth. In actuality, the nature of a paradigm works to inhibit the truth, because if one already believes that one has found the "truth", one ceases to find a logical reason to seek it, and so they cease to seek. It is possible though, for some bit of contradictory information to come along and intrude into your perception...like a fying pan to the head. This is called an epiphany, which changes your perception, and at the very least shifts your paradigm. If one is intelligent enough to apply reason in regards to an epiphany, they would then unsubscribe to their paradigm once and for all, realizing that they will never know all there is to know, and that it is never "correct" or beneficial to stop seeking the truth. After all, to live is to learn...to seek the truth is the meaning of life. Now that is a perception you may want to hold on to...and that is a perception that you can choose to have.

So, by the same token, when I look at Christianity, I have a certain perception of it, not unlike your perception of Satanism. I can't help the fact that this is my impression. I can listen to the arguments of people like yourselves, read, explore, consider carefully, etc. But my experiences are not your experiences and so the perception that forms in me of the value of these different choices is going to be different than yours. It is this perception we have of the relative values between the different options that we cannot control - it's not that nonbelievers are people of malintent, as you suggest.

Um...Satanism actually supports Christianity, as it is Christianity that defines Satan. Satanists are just choosing to play for the other team so to speak. But I get your point...lol.

And unless you live on a deserted island or in a cave somewhere, information containing the basic tenets of the Christian faith is widely available to anyone who may want to know about it, and in many different forms. As the world has gotten bigger and bigger in regards to population, it has at the same time grown smaller and smaller because of technology.

God is also no dummy in that He knows what you have been exposed to. He knows every little detail of your life experience and what it is that has made up your perceptions and why and He allows for all of this and takes all of it into account. He knows you better than you do...He made you.

And I don't want to label anyone's intentions as malicious. I don't want to judge anyone or come across as holier than thou. What I'm basing my arguement on is my own personal experience and how that allowed me to understand scripture that describes a certain spiritual law. I know that without a doubt, there was a time in my life when I did not want to know the truth. Did that make me a malicious person...evil? I don't know...I can certainly tell you that I didn't consider myself to be malicious or evil. I just didn't want to know because it was too consequential...it meant too much. I was afraid of what it would mean for me and my life. This life that I clinged to and that I did not want to give up...I did not want to give up control of. And as uncomfortable as this life of mine was, at the time I perceived it to be much more comfortable than what God would have for me if I gave my life to Him. Because I figured that if I had knowledge of Him...if I knew the truth about Him...that He actually did exist...it would only make sense to have to give a shit about what He wanted and what He determined to be right or wrong or good or bad. And what would that mean for my life? It was just way too consequential, and I just did not want to know...I was afraid that it would make my life bad, or boring, or hard. When ironically enough, my life was bad and boring and hard...and now I know that it was because I didn't know Him. It's funny. Knowing Him has been the opposite of what I expected back then.

What happened to me was that I got to a point in which I had to know the truth about God regardless of the consequences...regardless of what it meant for me and for my life...my lifestyle...I didn't care about the consequences anymore...I had to know the truth. Whatever that meant for me was irrelevant, because I was willing to accept it, as long as I knew the truth.

When this happened, He showed Himself to me. And He taught me through this experience, and over the years that your sincere desire to know the truth, is what determines whether you know it or not. And that is what the scripture means that says "seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened".

But see, this scripture is not referring to seeking doctrine, or knocking on the door of a particular church, mosque, or temple. It is referring to seeking of God Himself, and knocking on His door. See, knowledge of God is not revealed through doctrine, or history, or scripture, or organizations of men, or institutions. Knowledge of God is only revealed unto you through the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, with all of these other things, all you have is evidence that you may intellectualize. But with the Holy Spirit, you have proof, because of a personal spiritual interaction. THAT is knowledge, and anything else is conjecture.

And in realizing this, it makes the availability of the doctrine, or the organization supporting the doctrine, or the societal acceptance of the doctrine irrelevant. Because it is not a doctrine that you seek, but a Spirit...a real live Spirit that is everywhere, and all knowing, and available to everyone, regardless of their circumstance. So you could indeed be living on a deserted island or in a cave and still know God, if your perception is that you desire to know. As a matter of fact, I would argue that it is a person in this isolated circumstance who would actually be in a better position to have such a perception and to gain knowledge of God Himself because they would lack all of the distractions and the lies and coercive pressures that come with societal living. This isolated person could know God through the Holy Spirit without ever knowing that the Bible or a person named Jesus ever existed. But I tell you for sure that if they ever did become familiar with scripture, that they would know it was the truth. Why? Because it would confirm everything they already know about Him...from knowing Him personally...and from having Him counsel and teach them personally.

I know this because I have experienced it myself. I was never that knowledgeable regarding scripture myself, and when I had tried to read it, I didn't understand much of it at all. It just seemed very dry and irrelevant to me...I got nothing out of it. But the way it has worked since knowing Him, is that He will teach me something, and always through my life experience. And then when I have gained understanding of it, at some point in the future, I may see or hear scripture that confirms it, and I'll be like, "Oh, ok, I understand what that means." But only because I've lived it. So the dynamic regarding understanding scripture, if done correctly in rebirth, is actually backwards to what most people think it is.


But instead of really placing yourself in my shoes, you are conceptualizing the situation as though I were like you but behaving differently. In other words, you imagine what you would have to be like to do and say the things I am doing, and you imagine a person who is rejecting what they "know" to be right. But this is not the case. I am a person who is following what I truely believe is the right, just, and moral course of action.

I would contest that we are not all that different you and I...or anyone for that matter. As we all have different paths and different circumstances...there is only one universe and one planet that we all reside on for now...there is only one set of universal laws that we all live under...and there is only one God who created it all...and ourselves...and in His image. The difference right now between you and I is that you are relying on yourself, and I am relying on God.



You are not a person who really knows that Hinduism or Budhism is the right way but are rejecting it out of arrogance, pride, or evil are you? Certainly not, and most non-Christians are likewise not as you paint them.

I am aware of my own arrogance and pride, and I know that evil exists in this world...I have felt it's effect...in my own actions and intentions and in those of others as well. I know that I am no different from anyone else in this way.

Love,

Lori

Answer this riddle, and tr not to use the term "free will":

THE RIDDLE OF EPICURUS
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?


-ZERO MASS

You have Religions and you have Philosophies.

Religions arise from Divine Revelation.

Philosophies are cooked up by committees.

Now, most Atheists enjoy pretending that Religious Absolutes were the creation of Religions. In fact, they were the invention of Philosophers. It is like the Atheists themselves created a Religion designed for its Vulnerability.

But when did Revealed Religion ever pretend to possess God with any Absolute Power in the World? Look at Our Stories! First, the Creation Story -- the first thing mentioned is that in a Heavenly Rebellion God loses One Third of His Angels to Lucifer who is ejected from Heaven. What does this tell you? It tells you up front that One Third of the Powers in the Universe are in Rebellion against God. It doesn't make good Philosophy, but it was never intended to. It is Revealed Religion. It is only suppose to BE True, not sound True.

Then we have the Curse on Adam and Eve and their ejection from Paradice. There! Separation from God and all things Holy. Revealed Religion is notifying us that we can expect no perfection in these lower realms of the Curse of God.

Anyway, Epicurus was the typical Philosopher -- laying out Rules for God which God could not possibly conform to. Setting up the argument in terms which would guarentee he would win. If he had had any Intellectual Integrity he would offer an explanation which would explain Reality. Instead Epicurus shows us only a little child shaking his fist at the Sky.

If he is willing and able the why is there still evil?

You people love to deny the ability of free will given to us. Evil comes from us. It is no tool of God. and to say so is blasphemy. You better watch what you say on this forum. you may not believe in God, but he will hold you accountable unto death just the same.

Why do you struggle with believing in God. People answer me by saying i can not see him, i cannot hear him, i cannot feel taste or smell him. What good is he anyway. I said can you see air? They said no. I said can you fell it? They said yes, in a very bold and defiant voice as if to prove me wrong. I said why can you fell it. They replied i just can. I said your wrong. You can feel it because your in it's path. Live for God. Obey his word exactly and as passionately as you can. Do not quit searching for answers mind you for God is not the God of confusion, he would have you know all you can. But live for him and see if you don't see things you'd never have belived.


I have seen such miracles! Praise God.

get into god's path

hey Lori_7, it does my heart good to see that someone out there still moves by the holy spirit. Thank you.

also for everyone here. the book the creation-evolution controversy by R.L. wysong is awesome. It not only disproves evolution by a long shot but proves creationism with scientific law. 1st and 2nd law of thermodynamics, the law of biogenesis. All kinds of great stuff. Look into it.

hey Lori_7, it does my heart good to see that someone out there still moves by the holy spirit. Thank you.

also for everyone here. the book the creation-evolution controversy by R.L. wysong is awesome. It not only disproves evolution by a long shot but proves creationism with scientific law. 1st and 2nd law of thermodynamics, the law of biogenesis. All kinds of great stuff. Look into it.

Word up, home-pooch...I wish I could make people understand...that they are not going to find God in a book, or a doctrine, or an organization, or in their intellect...that God is a real live being with a Spirit...that they can interact with and know personally...if they only were to want to...

Scooby snacks for everyone!

Love,

Lori

I don't know how many of you have little kids or live with them, but I live with a two year old. She likes to help me out with cooking and stuff. ONe day, we were making pancakes on a griddle. I tell her to not touch the iron because it is hot and it will burn her. She decides to go ahead and touch it. I am willing that she not touch it, or I wouldn't warn her. I am able to make it so that she cannot burn herself ie. I can tell her to get out of the kitchen. But I allow her to stay. I let her choose to burn herself. Am I mean/cruel? No. I want her to learn how to trust me and to learn how to cook.

Enigma'07 good example. I read an analysis of all religion, atheism included, (It is a religion) and the writer of the analysis was in fact an atheist. He referred to religion as shallow water and said that the only way we will ever solve our problems is through a LACK of faith. He said if you want to get into the deep water become a free thinker. I don't think my belief in God ever stopped me from thinking. I still do my physics homework and would you believe it, not once has God ever stopped me.

But he also said that he admired and respected those who took their faith serious, so much so that they were willing to die for it.

to tell the truth I agree with him. Not on his beliefs mind you, but who are we to tell someone about a faith, and a set of guidelines that we don't follow.

the athiest man even quoted the bible referring to Jesus' statement that "those who believe on me and obey, even greater things than these shall you do." He said that christians do have a, more or less, test to see if they are just faking their faith or not.

By their fruits you shall know them.

I'm not saying if you believe in and obey God perfectly that your going to be able to shoot energy out of your hands cure all disease on the earth, Christ himself believed his whole life, but didn't start his ministry till he was 30. All in God's timing. but once again you must, must have faith for anything miraculous to occur.

For anyone out there who completely disagrees with any or every thing i've said, please do me a favor. I'm not asking you to give up Your beleifs, i'm just saying have an open mind and never stop searching for truth. It is out there. The greatest minds in history were people who were searching for the truth behind something they could not understand. Electricity. Time. Space. All things we now know more about because people we now call genius's would not just dismiss them as supernatural. Keep searching and don't get hard headed on me.

Peace,
Michael


don't preach hypocritically.

snoopdogg_capoeira: You people love to deny the ability of free will given to us. Evil comes from us. It is no tool of God. and to say so is blasphemy. You better watch what you say on this forum. you may not believe in God, but he will hold you accountable unto death just the same.
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M*W: Welcome, snoopdogg, but you can dispense with the preaching.
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snoopdogg: Atheists believe in free will, because they don't believe in god. Evil only emanates from religious people who seem to believe that their god can redeem them from evil. Atheists focus on good, not evil. Atheists don't believe in blasphemy, because there are no gods to blaspheme.
*************
snoopdogg: Why do you struggle with believing in God. People answer me by saying i can not see him, i cannot hear him, i cannot feel taste or smell him. What good is he anyway.
*************
M*W: Atheists don't struggle with believing in a god that doesn't exist. We don't see him, we cannot hear him, nor can we taste or smell him, because he doesn't exist.
*************
snoopdogg: I said can you see air? They said no. I said can you fell it? They said yes, in a very bold and defiant voice as if to prove me wrong. I said why can you fell it. They replied i just can. I said your wrong. You can feel it because your in it's path.
*************
M*W: Atheists don't need proof of the air, we just know it's there so we can breathe.
*************
snoopdogg: Live for God. Obey his word exactly and as passionately as you can. Do not quit searching for answers mind you for God is not the God of confusion, he would have you know all you can. But live for him and see if you don't see things you'd never have belived. I have seen such miracles! Praise God.
*************
M*W: Atheists live for themselves for the good of all humanity. We obey passionately what our hearts tell us. We haven't quit searching for answers, we've just realized that there is no god to give us the answers we search for. Living for something that causes unbelieveable hallucinations is called an addiction. I suggest you get a psychotherapist for your hallucinations and a detox from your religious addiction. Praising god falls not only on deaf ears, but on no ears, and preaching on this forum can get you banned.

snoopdogg_capoeira: get into god's path
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M*W: P-R-E-A-C-H-I-N-G ! ! !

snoopdogg_capoeira: hey Lori_7, it does my heart good to see that someone out there still moves by the holy spirit. Thank you.
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M*W: In religious addiction, the "shakes" or "DTs" as they are called, are neuromuscular seizures caused by a lack of oxygen to the brain resulting in brain damage. The holy spirit had nothing to do with it.
*************
snoopdogg: also for everyone here. the book the creation-evolution controversy by R.L. wysong is awesome. It not only disproves evolution by a long shot but proves creationism with scientific law. 1st and 2nd law of thermodynamics, the law of biogenesis. All kinds of great stuff. Look into it.
*************
M*W: I'm sure David F. already has.

WOW, M*W. Didn't mean to offend you. I will quit preaching at you if it makes you happy. I didn't mean to force anything on you in the first place, i was not trying to, so sorry if it sounded that way. I was out of line with the whole blasphemy thing. It is what i believe but i have no right to threaten you with it. if you would, and i'm not gonna push it or anything, but if you would could you explain to me why you think there is no god. It would be much appreciated.

again to M*W . I do however really respect you for trying to live as rightly as you can. There are very few who are unselfish enough to even do that, God or not. Tip of the Hat to ya.

also, and i'm probably gonna get a big BIG NO here, and i would understand that, but if you have an aol screen name, medicine woman, i would like to talk to you on there. this waiting stuff is so inconvinient.

I'm not saying if you believe in and obey God perfectly that your going to be able to shoot energy out of your hands cure all disease on the earth, Christ himself believed his whole life, but didn't start his ministry till he was 30. All in God's timing. but once again you must, must have faith for anything miraculous to occur.

.

You don't seem to have much of a background in Christianity, do you?

Christ wanted to get started when he was 12 years old, remember? His Mother told him "NO". It was only after She asked him to, that he re-commenced... he was even a smart-aleky son about it... remember what he replied when She told him at the Wedding of Cana to begin his Miracles?... "so you think it is finally the time for it", as though he had been somewhat recentful for having to wait 18 years.

Isn't it odd that Protestants do not see this... that Mary was so important to Jesus, and that his obedience to Her was absolute. I suppose it is because they hate Mary so much, they suppose Her Son must have hated Her too, and they think like you, that Christ could not begin because he could not begin... that He was the Son of God, but not quite yet...

As for the Holy Spirit... Protestants do not have it. They think they do but that is because when none of Paul's Congregations were given the Holy Spirit, because Paul's Teachings were not Christ's Teachings and so the Pauline Congregations were cut off from the Grace of God, Paul was put under pressure to explain why. So he lied. He told everybody that the Holy Spirit was not much more than ordinary virtues and common sense. He tossed out Pentacost and quite allowed everyone to forget what Christ said about the Holy Spirit, and instead insisted that the Holy Spirit was simply the different little human talents that everybody has in some degree.

But we know by the Christ-Like Miracles of the many Catholic Saints, and even from the Saints of the other Higher Religions (Hinduism, Sufism -- which is a development of Zoroastrianism) that there is indeed a Real Holy Spirit, and it goes way beyond Paul's and Protestantism's 'looking both ways when you cross a street'.

I interact with the Holy Spirit and have for years. I've had conversations with Him...He has taught me so many things...completely changed me and my life for the better. I'll never be "fixed" in this lifetime, but I've improved so much, and through no account of my own...only because of Him...all I've done is had faith in Him. I've experienced a mind blowing miracle recently...very complicated and involved...but having to do with revelations prophecy. I describe some of these things that I've experienced out here, and the best that the atheists can do is say that I'm crazy or hallucinating. My question to them is why don't you believe me? I'm telling you the truth. The answer is because you don't want to believe me...and that's the only reason. As a matter of fact, that's the only reason that you're not experiencing the Holy Spirit yourselves.

And MW...what in the hell are you talking about seizures and dt's for? My miracle doesn't have anything to do with lack of oxygen or seizures and I've been examined by a medical doctor, including an mri of the brain, and I'm in perfect health...mentally and physically...so again, let me once again warn you to speak for yourself, and do not project your full of crap diagnosis or absolutely ridiculous opinions on me or my experience. Thank you. Oh, and would you stop accusing people of preaching already. THAT'S ALL YOU DO WOMAN, YOU HYPOCRIT! SO SHUT UP ABOUT IT ALREADY! You're not a moderator so stop telling people what they can and can not say.

MW: "I don't preach, I teach."

roflmao. WHAT A LOAD.

Love,

Lori

Christ wanted to get started when he was 12 years old, remember? His Mother told him "NO". It was only after She asked him to, that he re-commenced... he was even a smart-aleky son about it... remember what he replied when She told him at the Wedding of Cana to begin his Miracles?... "so you think it is finally the time for it", as though he had been somewhat recentful for having to wait 18 years.

Isn't it odd that Protestants do not see this... that Mary was so important to Jesus, and that his obedience to Her was absolute. I suppose it is because they hate Mary so much, they suppose Her Son must have hated Her too, and they think like you, that Christ could not begin because he could not begin... that He was the Son of God, but not quite yet...
I often wonder what Mary must have felt and thought when she saw her son put up on a cross and crucified. I wonder how she could reconcile her grief in knowing that God should have been a hell of lot smarter than to sacrifice his only son instead of doing somethng himself.

I wonder how Joseph felt and thought also.

"What futility, that God should choose such a terrible way to get his message across, surely he is capable of much smarter and effective ways of achieving his ambitions......"

I often wonder what Mary must have felt and thought when she saw her son put up on a cross and crucified. I wonder how she could reconcile her grief in knowing that God should have been a hell of lot smarter than to sacrifice his only son instead of doing somethng himself.

I wonder how Joseph felt and thought also.

"What futility, that God should choose such a terrible way to get his message across, surely he is capable of much smarter and effective ways of achieving his ambitions......"

What a sadly ignorant comment.

That supposes God is a logician and everything He does must make sense to human beings. I suppose you were ignorant too of the description of God as being transcendent, a very quality which negates what you have said?

It also supposes that Jesus' sacrifice didn't make any sense, and was futile... Just another senseless death.

do you really believe that the sacrifice of Jesus was the best way to do what God wanted to do. Do you think that God was incapable of doing a better job of it?
After all given the limited audience etc he certainly doesn't think big hey?

Any way
happy New Year

You might find that "God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise [and] the weak things of the world to shame the strong." Because even strong men and phlosophers die in shame, and their strengths helped them nothing.

So that no one may boast before him (1 Cor. 1:29).

well he certainly can't boast to himself...........

I appreciate the effort shown in all the back and forth about unprovable theories, but i would like to say that the word "sin" has been misused many times here and should be translated "imperfect" as it is a word that originally described an arrow missing its target.

So, breaking God's (or nature's) laws would obviously fit into "sin", but so would many other things - false assumptions that had negative consequences, lack of ability or drive to alleviate the evil that is obviously present in our world, etc.
The second example (regarding evil) is actually a much bigger problem than the creation of the evil itself. Have you ever thought about how few people there are that want to commit murder compared to the people who would rather let others just go ahead and live? The question here is not "how many hitlers does it take to start a holocaust", but rather, how many people who would rather not have innocents murdered participate, or just look the other way?

Of course all humans are "sinful", because they are all imperfect. Thus, they don't always do good, sometimes they do evil.
Here is where it gets sticky - I would say that God created humans imperfect or they would have had to choose not to "sin" and eat the apple, "causing" all future generations to be born into sin, also known as imperfection. Therefore, the root cause of the evil in the world is God's creation of mankind as imperfect beings.
(Thinking ahead: God's creation of an imperfect being is not cause for thinking that God is not perfect, most things that have any value beyond their base mechanical purpose are "perfectly" imperfect, and in that lies their beauty, power, and transcendence.)

Letting people exist in their imperfections, causing themselves and others incredible amounts of pain, is no more "evil" than creating gravity, or allowing humans to create "time", which results in all kinds of terrible events. It is just the way things are...
Anyone who complains about God should first point at themselves since a few people, even in their their imperfect state, have shown that we could do a lot to help alleviate this suffering, and most of us (including myself) don't do a whole heck of alot.
Then, let's try to imagine what the world would be like if it weren't this way. Well, we don't really have any idea what things would or could be like because our minds operate under the constraints of our existence. If we were not "sinful" we wouldn't have to be having a discussion about God's existence, because we would be perfectly able to see (or to not see) God, or at least gather enough information to come to some conclusion. (maybe faith is somehow more "perfect" than "knowledge" anyway)

conclusion-
Evil is something humans do. Humans are something God does.
I am sure God has an explanation for all this, but I am pretty sure it will end up being our own fault somehow.
Which could be why we'll have to spend the rest of eternity in heaven while God answers all our silly questions in a way which will satisfy our tiny little minds.

p.s. please don't ask about satan, i haven't figured that one out yet... :eek:

I have read and argued this point countless times (MANY of them here) so I have no desire to read through all six pages of re-hashed shit and the same arguments.

If that leaves me undeserving of an answer to this question, I understand.

Why the caveat?
Answer this riddle, and tr not to use the term "free will"

I happen to think that is the solution to the so-called "riddle".

If you really want my opinion, here it is (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=696909&highlight=malevolence#post696909).

And I think it to be a very valid opinion one_raven. [that doesn't make it the truth but certainly valid as an opinion all the same.]
In another thread I asked the question "Does God play Chess?" It was really a statement also as I pondered on the idea that God also has freewill which he has every right to excersise. It is possible if one extends their beliefs to allwo GOd full and unfetted freewill one muct alsio realise that his range of choices is considereably more that we have. To not interferre, to practice "the Prime directive" and take no action when watching people suffer terribly must stake awsome self restraint and disciplne. To allow people to consider him to be an idiot and a god lacking in intelligence yet do nothing to show tyhem as wrong also takes enourmous self discipline and yet appearing as apathetic or indifferent.

To say that God exists solely to serve humanity is an incredible inditement as to the freedom God has.
To say that God is unable to develop a self sustaining automatic system of evolution would not give him the credit he may deserve.
Now either God has free will or he doesn't.
I find it some times amazing how religions underestimate the object of their faith so chronically. That religion denigrates God to being some sort of distorted refelction of them selves.

The it is no wonder that evil is allowed to perpetuate simply because the example set by God in the bible seems to justify the existence of evil.
Afterall it is ok for God to nail someone to a cross to set an example afterall.......


I also would like to ask the questions:

Do you think God may have evolved since the bible was written?

Or do you think God is some how required to be the God of the bible of 2000 odd years ago?

I appreciate the effort shown in all the back and forth about unprovable theories, but i would like to say that the word "sin" has been misused many times here and should be translated "imperfect" as it is a word that originally described an arrow missing its target.

So, breaking God's (or nature's) laws would obviously fit into "sin", but so would many other things - false assumptions that had negative consequences, lack of ability or drive to alleviate the evil that is obviously present in our world, etc.
The second example (regarding evil) is actually a much bigger problem than the creation of the evil itself. Have you ever thought about how few people there are that want to commit murder compared to the people who would rather let others just go ahead and live? The question here is not "how many hitlers does it take to start a holocaust", but rather, how many people who would rather not have innocents murdered participate, or just look the other way?

Of course all humans are "sinful", because they are all imperfect. Thus, they don't always do good, sometimes they do evil.
Here is where it gets sticky - I would say that God created humans imperfect or they would have had to choose not to "sin" and eat the apple, "causing" all future generations to be born into sin, also known as imperfection. Therefore, the root cause of the evil in the world is God's creation of mankind as imperfect beings.
(Thinking ahead: God's creation of an imperfect being is not cause for thinking that God is not perfect, most things that have any value beyond their base mechanical purpose are "perfectly" imperfect, and in that lies their beauty, power, and transcendence.)

Letting people exist in their imperfections, causing themselves and others incredible amounts of pain, is no more "evil" than creating gravity, or allowing humans to create "time", which results in all kinds of terrible events. It is just the way things are...
Anyone who complains about God should first point at themselves since a few people, even in their their imperfect state, have shown that we could do a lot to help alleviate this suffering, and most of us (including myself) don't do a whole heck of alot.
Then, let's try to imagine what the world would be like if it weren't this way. Well, we don't really have any idea what things would or could be like because our minds operate under the constraints of our existence. If we were not "sinful" we wouldn't have to be having a discussion about God's existence, because we would be perfectly able to see (or to not see) God, or at least gather enough information to come to some conclusion. (maybe faith is somehow more "perfect" than "knowledge" anyway)

conclusion-
Evil is something humans do. Humans are something God does.
I am sure God has an explanation for all this, but I am pretty sure it will end up being our own fault somehow.
Which could be why we'll have to spend the rest of eternity in heaven while God answers all our silly questions in a way which will satisfy our tiny little minds.

p.s. please don't ask about satan, i haven't figured that one out yet... :eek:


yummy, yum, yum.

scooby snacks for me!

*a big lick up the cheek*,

Lori

I have read and argued this point countless times (MANY of them here) so I have no desire to read through all six pages of re-hashed shit and the same arguments.

If that leaves me undeserving of an answer to this question, I understand.

Why the caveat?


I happen to think that is the solution to the so-called "riddle".

If you really want my opinion, here it is (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=696909&highlight=malevolence#post696909).

You're smart...very objective...seemingly open-minded and relatively unbiased. I like that. But dude...your avatar is freaking me out.

Love nuggets,

Lori

Thanks, Lori.
I chose that picture for a few reasons.
That picture is his LIFE magazine cover, and I guess it's a bit of a comment on a nation that would put him (Charlie Manson, for those of you that aren't aware) on the cover of their most widely read (at the time) news magazine and turn him into a celebrity.
It's an event that marks what I really see (though some may disagree) as the point when this country's morbid obsession with celebrity simply for the sake of celebrity reached a sad point of no return.

Another reason is one thing about him that has fascinated my curiocity (not really about him but the whole series of events) was his claim to be the second coming of Christ.
Now, I don't believe him, I think he's simply an insane, derranged man that was undeservedly vaulted to celebrity status, but since I was a kid one question has always hovered around my mind, "What if?" I think mainly because I think it would make a great story.
The other curiosity for me was how people reacted to his claim. I don't think they rejected it because he got people to murder for him, but simply because he claimed it to be so. Anyone who claims to be Christ is laughed at, ridiculed and out-right rejected (usually locked-up) regardless of their actions. So it brings another question to my mind, "What would Christ have to do to convince people, if it is even possible?"
I can't help but imagine him coming back (not that I necessarily even believe in Christ myself) as the long -awaited return of the king, and him laughed at and institutionalized.
Hell, he could even be in a mental ward as we speak.

Anyway, the short of it (even though it's a bit late for that now ;)) is that I am endlessly fascinated by people's reaction to him specifically and "potential saviors" in general.

Thanks, Lori.
I chose that picture for a few reasons.
That picture is his LIFE magazine cover, and I guess it's a bit of a comment on a nation that would put him (Charlie Manson, for those of you that aren't aware) on the cover of their most widely read (at the time) news magazine and turn him into a celebrity.


But you are providing just one more instance of contributing to that celebrity, no?

Old Charlie had a rare and dangerous talent -- he could get people to absolutely obey him even to the point of murder. Do you realize how much power can be gotten from such absolute obedience? Stalin did not have any more adherents that Old Charlie. It only takes a few, and if everybody knows they are out there, then everyone else soon falls in line. But what did Old Charlie do with his virtual omnipotence? He killed a few silly Hollywood second rate Movie Stars. But still, we are left with the fact that there were almost a dozen people willing to obey every whim and command of Old Charlie, no matter what. And this is in a World where most of us can't get others to agree which Restaurant to go to or which Movie to see. So we must all concede that Old Charlie had something weird and strange going for him.

Or maybe his secret was simply in how to recruit the most impressionable idiots, but even that shows a great deal of insight into character. So it really is difficult to entirely dismiss Old Charlie's bazzaar accomplishments.

"What would Christ have to do to convince people, if it is even possible?"


Well, we have enough documentation for that sort of thing. The Catholic Church likes to keep Christ front and center, but there have been several times in their History when they have had very powerful Christ-Like Celebrities -- Bernard of Clairvaux, Vincent Ferrer, and even Anthony of Padua. What made them popular Saints even during their lifetimes? Miracles and plenty of them.

Francis of Paola in Southern Italy had a fascinating career. He put together a plan to have the strictest ascetic sect in the Church, providing the least food, the least sleep.. the least of everything. But because of his numerous miracles of every kind -- healing, levitating, modifying matter, raising things from the dead... all on a daily basis -- people were beating down his doors to join his Brotherhood.

But it was as nothing compared to Vincent Ferrer. He toured Southern Europe with a troupe of 10,000 flagellents. In each town he visited he would completely empty the hospitals with healings. He was a little old man, but would address the crowds, speaking only Castilian Spanish, and yet everyone in crowds of over 100,000 people would understand him distinctly in their own language. People would have thought he was certainly Christ come again, and he could only dissuade them by claiming to be the Angel of Judgment from Revelation Chapter 14.

We know that Bernard was able to exercise an incredible authority throughout Europe. He was quite the Peace Maker. he would walk into local Civil Wars and arbitrate, and nobody would even contemplate the bare possibility of not doing exactly what he recommended. It was Bernard who was able to put together the 2nd Crusade. it was ostensibly a 'failure', but it did send 90% of the Norman Invaders out of Europe where they got killed and were not able to come back to be a pain in everybody else's backsides.

Then we have the Story of Bernard and Abellarde, who was the foremost Philosopher and Intellectual of his time. Abellarde wanted to use Reason to justify Faith, but Bernard warned that to subject Mystery to Reason would be to open a door that would not be so easily shut. The Pope, who had been a brother recruited by Bernard, asked Bernard to debate Abellarde, and Bernard objected that this was exactly what he was against... people arguing over the Faith, but the Pope insisted. So they met at Paris and Abellarde spilled out his very sensible Argument. It was Bernard's turn and Bernard simply caught Abellarde's eye. Instantly Abellarde understood. He recanted and and resigned his Chair of Philosphy at the Sarbonne and went off to retirement at a secluded Monastery.

Anthony of Padua was also rife with the ordinary miracles but seemed to specialize in 'animal tricks'. He once preached to the Fish as a few members of a lakeside audience turned away from him. He said, "Okay, People don't want to listen... so I'll preach to the fish". and instantly all these fish heads popped out of the water and the fish were jumping just next to shore. The people were mesmerized by it, and then when Anthony finished his Mass and crossed himself, the fish instantly dispersed as though on signal. Then, from town to town he would find horse and mule owners who would bet Anthony that their horses and mules were not more Religiously wise than they were. The contest was for the horse or mule to chose between Anthony's God and the owners hey and oats. The Owners would starve their animals for days, and then show up in the town square, where, without ever having met Anthony, the Horse or Mule would actually lift up a hoof and 'cross' itself, and then genuflect, and then take a Consecrated Host from Anthony, all while ignoring the hey and oats and the lamentations of their owners. Anthony became wildly popular. And he tried to keep it secret, but he was caught levitating a few times (he didn't want to be known to be able to do something that even Christ was not known for).

Anyway, if the Second Coming of Christ were to arrive, He would only have to pick up where Bernard, Ferrer, Francis and Anthony left off. People would be just as impressed now, as they were then for the Saints.

to Leo,

Let me say I appreciate the very interesting historical anecdotes you posted.
It is cool that some people take the time to look into the things most people would not.

I was however concerned with the post from page 5 of this discussion where you seem to say that Paul (credited with writing a good chunk of the New testament) was a fraud and protestants are devoid of contact with the holy spirit.
Wow! that is some real exclusionary sH*#.
It is bad enough to have even most christians excluded from acceptance by their God according to most "religious" people, due to lack of faith, or sin, or whatever. But when branches of the same root get into disparaging each other, it is sad.

First of all, the gifts of the spirit are not just the things that make up a good magic show. Love, patience, self-control, and even faith itself, are gifts from God.
Maybe the followers of Paul got more of those and the catholics got more cool magic tricks. It is certain the catholics commited more heartless, terrible, monstrous acts in the name of God than the protestants did. Although the protestants did try to catch up in the witch-burning game...

I guess I just think it is sad that someone who has an interest in reading about works of the spirit would try to be divisive instead of instructive and loving.
Oh well, nobody's perfect.

If I read that post wrongly and what I perceived was not your intent, please forgive my mistake. Nobody's perfect. :)

also, to Q.Q. who asks:

---- Do you think God may have evolved since the bible was written?
Or do you think God is some how required to be the God of the bible of 2000 odd years ago? ----

I hope our perception of God has evolved and will continue to, even if God doesn't need to evolve. Hopefully we can figure out the things in the bible (and elsewhere) people have been misreading for the last 2000 years that have caused so many problems.

From the bits i've read of Leo's it seems to me he is living in his world of catholiks and protestants. and obviously siding with the former, accuses anyone to give a differnt view to his as being a protestant, and secualr protestant etc....as long as 'protestant' is ad-fixed

What he doesn't understand is that i am j'accusing BOTH catholiism and protestantism, and hitting them with the same broom!

one can see, even from a preliminary elementary glance at their story that protest-anism was an emergence in protest at the corruption of the Catholic church......and in doing so, their own religion lost much of the coulur and exuberance of Catholic ritual....yet deeper insight can see that the latters colour and exuberance was all show. and it had ruthlessly persecuted people, especially pagans, and hereitcs etc (which to this day it has never apologized for)...and the protestant religion is part of the grin work ethic trap of industrially fascist ideologies which fue//fool Western culture, and ruthlessly exploit most of the the rest of the 'un-develop-ed' world

We in the UK know all too well what can happen when the cathlics and the proddys go at each other....like Northern Ireland...?!

so the authentic explorer looks through this superficial rivalry to the REAL roots, which is the patriarchy!....the invention of a perfect 'he-God' and the rules which create pseudo-order

Duendy, you have pointed out a good response to Q.Q.'s question about God evolving.
Nobody who is informed and rational believes in a big man in the sky with a white beard anymore. Maybe God took on the appearance of a man to communicate with the ancient patriarchs, (but then again, appeared as some sort of fire to Moses), so even the patriarchs should have a hard time deciding what he/it is really like.
In the Bible, God is represented with feminine aspects too.
Also, a belief that God is strictly female, should be just as spurious to the modern mind.

Leo,
after reading some of your posts, I conclude that you waste a lot of your knowledge and obvious literary talent when you try to make such a stretch as calling Paul the antichrist, or protestantism a continuation of barbarism.
Although I would like to believe George bush responded to the pope in the way you ascribe to him, I couldn't find that quote anywhere, so your source is suspect to me, until that quote is shown from some ostensibly "reliable" source.
I think it was just a mistake putting quotes around it, and was just your interpretation of what was going on in his mind which is probably pretty accurate. But if you hold to it it as an actual quote, and the quote isn't real, it makes your presentation of other supposedly factual information (histrory for example) suspect to me as well, which probably isn't fair since it seems to be well researched. My point is, you could be more careful with where you point your pen, er, cursor.

Then there is this quote from one of your posts:
--- Originality is the fetish of secular humanists. This is why in modern western culture good music, good art, good literature is all abandoned in the pursuit of an originality that is rarely equal to what it displaces.----

Well said (x2).

When you make a point that is true, you show your true intelligence. Maybe you could channel your energies into more productive arguments. I'm sure you could think of something.

Thanks, Lori.
I chose that picture for a few reasons.
That picture is his LIFE magazine cover, and I guess it's a bit of a comment on a nation that would put him (Charlie Manson, for those of you that aren't aware) on the cover of their most widely read (at the time) news magazine and turn him into a celebrity.
It's an event that marks what I really see (though some may disagree) as the point when this country's morbid obsession with celebrity simply for the sake of celebrity reached a sad point of no return.

I suppose that ironically, that's the same reason that I was disturbed to see the pic used as an avatar.


Another reason is one thing about him that has fascinated my curiocity (not really about him but the whole series of events) was his claim to be the second coming of Christ.
Now, I don't believe him, I think he's simply an insane, derranged man that was undeservedly vaulted to celebrity status, but since I was a kid one question has always hovered around my mind, "What if?" I think mainly because I think it would make a great story.


Well, I would suppose that there was definitely a spiritual influence involved with Manson and his claims and his resulting ability to convince/coerce others. I've said it before on this board, that just as I have heard the voice of the Holy Spirit speak to me, I know that there are others who hear voices as well...it's just that only One such voice is Holy. Demonic spirits influence and communicate with people as well...interact with them...impart knowledge to them...lie to them. It's strange, I was just talking about Manson not too long ago with someone...I can't remember who it was...but they were telling me that the reason that he was so convincing to his followers is because he knew things about them that he should have had no way of knowing. There was no explanation other than a spiritual one to account for the personal and private information that he had about his followers. It freaked these people out to the point where they were convinced that he had "spiritual powers"...and I suppose they thought that if he was correct regarding the information that he told them about themselves and other things/happenings, that he was also correct in his claims to be the second coming.

I'm sure that Manson actually thought that he was the second coming...I'm sure that he believed the voices in his head. Demons are very deceptive...after all, it's their whole purpose or intention...to deceive...and they are very powerful and convincing in their manifestations. Telepathic communication not being the only way in which they can interact or influence. They can possess people who are willing and/or preferrably heavily drugged to the point of an extreme reduction of will or consciousness. And they can also possess the bodies of animals with relative ease. I've had them interact with me a couple of times. Back in the spring of last year...while I was knee-deep in "my miracle". I could certainly tell that they didn't like what was happening to me...involving me...and so they were trying to scare me...and did a real good job for a minute...until God showed me that I had nothing to fear, as He was with me. If He is with me who can be against me? But in the process, my ex-husband...who hears voices in his head and has for years...convincing him of a conspiracy against him...making him suicidal...and landing him in the psychiatric hospital on three occasions now. Anyway, they used him to communicate to me...they spoke through him. He called me on the phone one day...drunk and stoned as hell and as usual...and told me things about what I was going through that he had absolutely no way of knowing...no way at all. The tone of his voice was even different...he didn't sound like himself...and he didn't remember the conversation at a later date. This actually happened several times...but one time in particular, the things that he said regarding my miracle...things he knew...it scared me so bad. I've never been so scared in 37 years of life. I wasn't shaking, I was practically convulsing.

He also called me one time and left a message on my machine. When I played the message, there were two voices on the tape. His was in the background, and there was another non-human sounding voice in the foreground. It wasn't the tv or stereo...he was alone at the time and at home. It was an evil hissing almost synthesized sounding voice. I couldn't make out what it was saying, though I recognized that it was saying something. I got the creeps and deleted it almost immediately. I later regreted deleting it.

There was also this cat...my neighbor's cat...that slept in a tree one night in my backyard. I'm pretty sure that it was the same night that I received the terrifying phone call from my ex. This tree is a mulberry, and it's branches canopy over the middle of my yard. The cat laid all night in one that was in direct view of my second story bedroom window. I remember seeing it when I had gotten home that night...walked right under it while coming in from my garage...and thinking it very strange. See, my dog had chased that poor little thing up a tree twice before, and it had been scared to death. It cried and cried while it was stuck up there both times until it finally and most apprehensively found it's way down. So to see it just calmly and quietly laying up there, with no dog in sight, and watching me, was weird...really weird. And it stayed there all night. And the weirdest thing was that every time I looked at it...from my bed, in the dark, out the window, and approximately forty feet away into the back yard...it would move. Every time I looked at it...even just to glance at it...it would get up and reposition itself. It freaked the shit out of me.

Also during that time, I kept hurting myself...like stubbing my toe, or running my shin into the coffee table. I'm usually a clutz, but this was noticably more often and more painful. And so I'm standing in my closet this one afternoon...rearranging my clothes...winter to summer changeout...and out of nowhere my head goes slamming into my closet shelf. I had been standing still...trying to decide how to organize it all. It's not like I lost my balance or ran into it...I wasn't even close to it. I swear it was as if some invisible hand came along and shoved my head right into it. The next day I slammed my finger in my car door at the gas station and that was it...I f'ing went off...at God. Yelling at Him about "how can you let this shit happen to me?...and you're supposed to protect me...you're my Father and it says in the Bible that you don't want me to be hurt"...and so I ended up praying for His protection and got it. Sometimes God allows things to happen to me so that I will pray for something in particular that He wants me to pray for...that I need to pray for...and then I pray and He acts upon the prayer. It's kind of cool actually.

And then there is also demonic interaction that happens in the spiritual realm...as with lucid dreaming, astral projection, and alien abduction. I've never experienced this myself, and am no expert, but I do know from hearing testimony of those who have experienced, that one's body can be left asleep/paralyzed, while their spirit goes elsewhere and interacts with deceptive/demonic spirits/beings. Astral projection could explain how Manson was able to collect personal information about his followers without their knowledge or consent...or information about other things...that would have convinced them that he was the Christ.

Anyway, with any kind of spiritual influence and/or interaction/communication, there are resulting manifestations in the physical realm. This is what the Bible refers to as "fruit of the spirit". And it says that the identity of the spirit is made obvious by it's fruit...a good spirit yielding good fruit and a bad spirit yielding bad fruit. I think that in the case of my ex-husband, and Manson, the fruit is obvious...as it also is with myself and in contrast.


The other curiosity for me was how people reacted to his claim. I don't think they rejected it because he got people to murder for him, but simply because he claimed it to be so. Anyone who claims to be Christ is laughed at, ridiculed and out-right rejected (usually locked-up) regardless of their actions. So it brings another question to my mind, "What would Christ have to do to convince people, if it is even possible?"
I can't help but imagine him coming back (not that I necessarily even believe in Christ myself) as the long -awaited return of the king, and him laughed at and institutionalized.
Hell, he could even be in a mental ward as we speak.

Anyway, the short of it (even though it's a bit late for that now ;)) is that I am endlessly fascinated by people's reaction to him specifically and "potential saviors" in general.

Shit, I'm ridiculed, rejected, and have my sanity questioned simply because I claim to know Him...to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit...to have experienced this miracle because of Him.

They killed him the first time, but the second time is going to be very different. No humble beginnings with a virgin birth in a manger...He's already lived that life...He's already conquered death. This time He will come with the armies of heaven to make war against and capture the antichrist and the false prophet at armeggedon. It says in the Bible something like just as lightning strikes in the east and is shown in the west so will be His second coming...that the whole world will see His return, and that the whole world will know who it is that they are seeing. Sounds like circumstances will be most different then, and that His identity will be obvious.

Love,

Lori

interesting discourse Lori,

A little advice, grab some sea salt and place it in a small cloth bag, and carry it in your pocket or purse.

The crystaline properties of the salt allows you to detect deceptions, which as yo saqy the "spirit " world has heaps of.
It also purifies those energies that may be toxic and preserves your underlying motivation.

The history of Salt casting dates back thousands of years and has often been used primarilly for protection. It may be something you can offer your ex husband as a way of protecting him from negative inputs, also it acts as a memory prompt of the need to be protected which we often forget to keep in mind.
Also the ritual of rubbing salt between your hands and smelling the result is also useful in allowing your brain/physical body to determine your state of health.

Lori,
I know you get this a lot, and I know what the impressions are of most of the people that ask you, but I assure you, this is not in ridicule, nor it is a plea for you to seek professional help.
It's simple questions from an interested and curious person.
I would like to know, however, how you know that this is spirits and mystical interractions in the spiritual realm, rather than simple, straight-forward psychosis?
How do you know it's not your mind playing tricks on you?
I am sure (or at least I hope) that you understand and recognize that psychosis does exist and affects people in simillar ways to your visions and voices.
How do you know that it doesn't apply to you?
What is the deciding distinction for you?

The other thing I wanted to ask, if you see fit to share (I understand if you don't), Can you post the letters you wrote while interracting with The Holy Spirit, if you haven't already, and link to tham if you have?
Maybe even a scanned copy?
I would honestly be eager to read them.
I assure you that I will not ridicule you, but, of course, you will have to expect it from some.
If you are willing to share it with me, but do not want to make it public, maybe you could send me a private message?

Respectfully,
one_raven

p.s. please don't ask about satan, i haven't figured that one out yet... :eek:

Got me thinking about Satan...about who he is...his "role" in all of this...

You know how it is that creation seems to have this duality of opposition? Life/death, light/dark, love/hate, faith/fear, order/chaos, peace/strife, good/evil, truth/lies, hope/despair...

It's implied in spiritual law I suppose...that there is always a choice for us to make...we, who are created...to follow the law or to trangress it...determining the quality of our lives while here in the flesh...and ultimately determining whether to live or to die...to continue to exist or not eternally...

Holy/unholy...

Well, just as Christ, and His Holy Spirit is the embodiment of everything that is holy, the anti-christ and Satan is the embodiment of everything that is unholy. Who do we follow? Who do we serve? There is always a choice. What king and kingdom do you choose? The Holy Spirit leads us by rebirth of the spirit...by the spirit...and through Christ. Satan leads us by our flesh and the material things of this world...a denial of Christ. And the life of the spirit and that of the flesh oppose one another...you can not choose both. That which nutures the spirit, crucifies the flesh. That which satisfies the flesh crushes the spirit.

Just as Christ is the way that leads you to eternal life through the spirit, Satan is the alternative that leads you to death through the flesh.

The mark of the beast being a genetic alteration...presented as a "rebirth"...only of the flesh...that makes the flesh immortal, while killing the spirit. This is the alternative to spiritual rebirth through Christ, which makes the spirit immortal, and crucifies the flesh.

I'm thinking out loud, and my thoughts aren't very well organized, so I apologize...

Love you,

Lori

I know that the bible does not say this, but have you ever considered that God turned his back on humanity when they killed his mortal son?

I can't help but consider that he saw Jesus as his last ditch effort to save humanity from itself and they not only wholly rejected him, but killed him and sent him back home.

God could very well have said, "Well, I see you have made your decision" and became a Deist God at that point.

I hope that makes sense because that's one of the premises of a book I am working on. :D

interesting discourse Lori,

A little advice, grab some sea salt and place it in a small cloth bag, and carry it in your pocket or purse.

The crystaline properties of the salt allows you to detect deceptions, which as yo saqy the "spirit " world has heaps of.
It also purifies those energies that may be toxic and preserves your underlying motivation.

The history of Salt casting dates back thousands of years and has often been used primarilly for protection. It may be something you can offer your ex husband as a way of protecting him from negative inputs, also it acts as a memory prompt of the need to be protected which we often forget to keep in mind.
Also the ritual of rubbing salt between your hands and smelling the result is also useful in allowing your brain/physical body to determine your state of health.

That made me chuckle for some reason...sorry, not trying to be shitty...it just struck me as funny. Maybe that's why the Bible refers to those born again in Christ as the salt of the earth??? But just the same, I'll stick to Jesus...He works just great. There is authority in His name...ultimate authority. So I can pray for protection in His name and I receive it...which I have, and did. I can also command evil spirits in His name, and they must submit to my authority in using it...me being aware of who they are, and in relation to Him, they being under His authority...and I have done this as well, and witnessed them reluctantly submit. Faith is the opposite of fear...and they can't get to you if you have knowledge, because they can only operate in ignorance and deception. It may have scared the crapola out of me...what I went through for a while last year...but it only lasted for a minute...and I learned a hell of a lot from it...and for that I am thankful...and stronger.

*making a big spiritual muscle* What now biotch?

Wubbies,

Lori

one_raven,

Not to barg in here. By the way, I liked your answer to the riddle. Thought it was very well thought out. But, I think in response to your question, ("but have you ever considered that God turned his back on humanity when they killed his mortal son?"), Christ was meant to die. It was this that paid for our sins, not Christ's life, but his Death. sort of the ultimate sacrifice. So, here's where i'm at. I think God was really ticked, but the bible said Christ is at his right hand ever interceding for us. Best answer i can think of. Hope it helps.

I'm glad to meet someone who has an open mind.

oh yeah Lori. If you don't mind, and maybe you already said it and i missed it, but what miracle are you talking about when you say "my miracle".

Still looking,
michael

one_raven,

Not to barg in here. By the way, I liked your answer to the riddle. Thought it was very well thought out.
Thanks


But, I think in response to your question, ("but have you ever considered that God turned his back on humanity when they killed his mortal son?"), Christ was meant to die. It was this that paid for our sins, not Christ's life, but his Death. sort of the ultimate sacrifice.
See, that explanation never sat well with me for a few reasons.

First of all, what sacrifice?
He was welcomed into the Kindom of Heaven for Eternal bliss. What is really so bad (from Christ's point of view) of being crucified?

Second, where's the necessity?
If God wanted to forgive us our mortal sins, he could simply do so. Why would he have to send his son to die on the cross? He's omnipotent, he wouldn't HAVE to.

Third, where's the reasoning?
Why would Jesus being crucified absolve us from mortal sin? If anything, it is proof positive that we do not want absolution at all. The son of God holds himself up as a teacher. He preaches eternal bliss in the his father's Kindom of heaven. He tells people that there are a few simple rules that need to followed. The rules are a thousand-fold less complex than Mosaic law and requires very little more than simply bening selfless and caring for all others. He was preaching simple compassion and cooperation. Not only did he get killed, but his followers raped his teachings, completely distorted his truth and used his words as an excuse for committing countless heinous crimes against all humanity. It is quite clear that we flat-out rejected salvation and absolution, regardless of how simple and clearly intuitive it was. If anything, us killing him would not ensure entrance into Heaven, but decent into Hell.

On top of all that, God was apparently aware that Jesus was going to be crucified at the hands of the very humanity he was attemting to save? What's the point?

It makes no sense at all to me.
If you really think about it, doesn't it sound pretty silly all-in-all?
I think it does.
This is where that premise from my book came from.
What seems to me like unsoluable reasoning regarding God offering the "ultimate sacrifice".

oh yeah Lori. If you don't mind, and maybe you already said it and i missed it, but what miracle are you talking about when you say "my miracle".
I believe she is referring to this miracle (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=739049#post739049), which is the one I was asking about 2 posts back.

Lori,
I know you get this a lot, and I know what the impressions are of most of the people that ask you, but I assure you, this is not in ridicule, nor it is a plea for you to seek professional help.

Thank God.


It's simple questions from an interested and curious person.

Now that is more like it...that I can appreciate.


I would like to know, however, how you know that this is spirits and mystical interractions in the spiritual realm, rather than simple, straight-forward psychosis?
How do you know it's not your mind playing tricks on you?
I am sure (or at least I hope) that you understand and recognize that psychosis does exist and affects people in simillar ways to your visions and voices.
How do you know that it doesn't apply to you?
What is the deciding distinction for you?

That's a totally legit question, and I'll do my best to answer it. I'm sure that you can appreciate that it's sometimes difficult to interpret personal impressions and feelings or a sense of knowing or understanding into words. Especially when it has to do with the spiritual realm and these manifestations of it. It's just not something that I'm used to talking about or hearing about or even experiencing...at least not in relation to most other things...the things of the flesh...the things and happenings of this material world. Those things are easy to talk about and describe because we do it all the time...we're taught to in school even. But things that are not of this world are not so easy to talk about and describe...no one ever taught me much about that.

First, I would have to say the most obvious thing is that I've never been diagnosed with any mental problems or psychosis before...nothing even remotely close...quite the opposite actually. I'm the one that people confide in when they need to talk. I'm the one that people come to if they need help. I'm the responsible one. I'm the smart one...the capable one...the one that no one worries about. There have actually been times in my life when I've even resented this way that others see me and treat me. Like why does everyone else get to be weak and behave foolishly and irresponsibly and need bailing out all the time and I don't? Doesn't that sound weird? But it's almost like I felt neglected because no one ever worried about me before. Or there have been times when I've felt taken advantage of or taken for granted. I know, it's strange that I would feel that way...and I could never really stand the thought of being weak or needy either. I'm a control freak historically. I say this in retrospect because God has been changing me over the years...I've come to need Him...and to give up all control to Him...to recognize my weaknesses...and to appreciate very much the idea of needing someone else...or relying on someone else...a man that is, and in a marital and symbiotic ying yang kind of way you know. Anyway, I digress...

It seems odd to me now looking back that no one ever did worry about me back then, because as responsible and capable as I was, I was also truly self-destructive, extremely unhappy, and all because I believed lies about myself and this life that were truly ridiculous. So now people worry about me and think I'm nuts, while the opposite is true...that I now understand the truth about things that allows me to be happier, healthier, more fulfilled, productive, and "saner" than I've ever been. I don't know...I guess in a way, you've got to be somewhat nuts to be considered normal in this world.

So that explains other's perspectives of me...now for my own. I've never experienced anything like this before or in relation to anything else...meaning that this phenomenon is very specific. The experience has been very directed...by my prayer...by my sincere desires...legitimate desires that have been brought about by life experience. Seek and you shall find...and I sought...and I found. And back in the day, the answer that I got, I must say, was not the answer that I necessarily wanted...considering the circumstances...probably the opposite. But the thing is that because of the circumstances, I had to know the truth, regardless of what it was, of what it meant, of what the consequences were, of whether or not it was what I wanted to hear or to have to deal with.

And so it's been a progression over the years...this relationship with God. The things He's taught me and shown me...sometimes through circumstance, feelings, ideas or understanding that just "comes from out of nowhere", and on rare occasions this voice of His. But it's all been in response to prayer...to satisfy a sincere desire of mine to understand certain things.

This thing recently though has been over the top freaking trippy. Blown my f'ing mind. And here's the thing...my mind isn't contriving this...my mind can barely even keep up with this. I can barely get my pee-brain around it...it's so meaningful and amazing. The thing is that I'm neither smart enough nor imaginative enough to ever even attempt to make something like this up...it would be absolutely impossible for anyone to...it's way too complicated and profound...and straight out of the Bible for crying out loud. Interpretation of prophecy that I could have never in a million years even attempted to develop a theory about, nor would I even care to or have any interest in trying to.

I try to explain this stuff to my friends and family and in relation to the rock star and his work, and also in relation to scripture and here's what happens...first of all I ramble on and on because it's just seemingly never ending, which can be irritating...for me at least. And then, what's even more irritating is the repeated use of the word "coincedence" in their response to what I attest to. Over and over and over and over. To the point at which the last time I was discussing this with my dad I asked him "Do you realize how many times you've used the word 'coincedence' in relation to what I'm telling you? You're starting to sound like the one who's crazy." I mean seriously, how many coicedences can there possibly be regarding one specific thing or occurrence before you start realizing that something weird is going on? But they just don't want to know. It means too much...it's too consequential...it's too over the top.

Then there's the rock star. Good God, there he is, just as amazing as the rest of it, but human, just like me. He's walking, talking, living, breathing, and singing actually, evidence of what has happened to me...and continues to happen. It's what him and his band and all of their work is all about. No one can figure it out....there's this huge enigma surrounding the band and his lyrics...everyone is dying to know what's up with this guy. No one knows what, but they know it's something. They love him, adore him, worship him actually. Until I understood what was going on it gave me the creeps. I want to tell you guys who it is, I just don't know if it's the right thing to do or not...I can't tell...I don't have an answer. It's not like you would believe me anyway...no one does. Shit, I could go out on to the band's message board, where these people spend hours and hours contriving and discussing theories about what the band and his lyrics are about, and give them the answer that they are so desparate for and they would totally ignore me. It's just not going to make any difference until it comes from him.


And here's the bottom line...this thing is SO over the top that there is no in between...I'm either telling the truth and this has really happened, or I'm completely delusional to the point of being profoundly insane and need some serious help...and I mean serious help. There's just no in between with this...there's no watered down version...there's no other explanation...there's no rationalization...there's no diminished diagnosis. It's either the honest to God's truth or someone should heavily medicate me and lock my ass up. And also along this bottom line is the fact that I've never been happier, healthier, more fulfilled, or more at peace in my life! I've quit doing drugs...I was an addict for 21 years!!!!! 21 years people! That's a long fucking time to not be able to put something down...shit, I was chained to nicoteen, and to anything that altered my state of mind...preferrably pot. Put it all down without so much as one little withdrawal symptom...not one. It was like I didn't even have a choice. It was like I had never even been addicted at all. It was like I turned into someone else...someone who had never smoked or drank and never wanted to. I'm sorry, but that's just f'ing weird!!!! Shit like that just doesn't happen ok? Not to me it doesn't. I always said that it would take a straight jacket and a padded cell to get me to quit cigarettes. I was wrong. And you know, I'm not delusional about anything else. People still want my advice and my help and they still don't worry about me...other than when I talk about this one specific thing. They have no choice...they can't...cause they know me, they see me, they witness my behaviour and my mentality and it's obvious that I'm completely sane. I'm productive, rational, capable, and have no problem taking care of myself and others for that matter.



The other thing I wanted to ask, if you see fit to share (I understand if you don't), Can you post the letters you wrote while interracting with The Holy Spirit, if you haven't already, and link to tham if you have?
Maybe even a scanned copy?
I would honestly be eager to read them.
I assure you that I will not ridicule you, but, of course, you will have to expect it from some.
If you are willing to share it with me, but do not want to make it public, maybe you could send me a private message?

Respectfully,
one_raven

The first letter has references in it that are very telling as to the identity of the recipient. The second one does not, but I'm frustrated by it. See, I destroyed the original copies of both the letters right after I got off of the phone with my ex that day. That's what I did in my state of terror...I burned my notebook with the writing in it, along with just about anything else that had to do with what I had experienced, and a full carton of cigarettes too. Through them all into the fireplace and burned them...I have no idea why other than that I was just scared to death and didn't know what else to do.

So what I have now is rewritten from memory. The first letter is very accurate to what I sent him...I remembered that one very well. The second one though is not, and it bugs the shit out of me that I can't remember. Man, it was so perfect...every word just fit perfectly and flowed perfectly...and now it doesn't and so it frustrates me.

I wish I had a sign that told me what to do about spilling my rock star's beans...about naming him. If I were to look to your name raven, it would be a sign that said "NO!"...boldface and in all caps...screaming no. Nothing personal sweety, you would have to know a thing or two about the rock star to understand why I say that. I'm sorry, I'm just not sure right now.

Love,

Lori

Do you think God may have evolved since the bible was written?

Or do you think God is some how required to be the God of the bible of 2000 odd years ago?

I am well aware that I could be thinking from a very skewed perception and faulty anthropomorphic reasoning, but I always view "God" as having a personality.
If he does, then I think his evolution is fairly inevitable.

Where do you stand?
Why do you ask?

Snoop and Raven,

The letters are just a small slice of the pie that is my miracle...there's a lot more to it. I'm going to see if I can do some quick "cliff notes"...

Rock star was abducted by aliens. He also has experienced prophetic and lucid dreams, and can astral project himself. During these experiences, he interacted with demonic spirits who deceived him into taking the mark of the beast.

Because of this he became immortal in the flesh, and yet spiritually dead, for what I can tell was a period of seven years.

I do not understand his perspective and can't speak for him to explain what this was like or how he came about finding a way out of it. All I know is that he was shown a way out somehow...through his dreams...through signs and by God. This website is part of the way. He used to post out here when I first came out here in 98/99. He still posts out here for all I can tell...under assumed names of course. I'm pretty sure I know who he is...then again, I've been wrong before. Sometimes I misinterpret what God is trying to show me. Anyway, back in the day, the reason I came out here was to tell everyone what God had told me about aliens and the abduction phenomenon...that is was demonic, and was the basis of the end times deception of the antichrist and the false prophet. I don't think I knew about the genetic change that was to be the mark of the beast at that time yet...I'm not sure.

Rock star contacted me while I was out here...he wrote me poetry...on this site, and he emailed me once with it. It used to piss me off cause I hated poetry...I didn't understand it and I didn't understand him. He finally spoke some "english" to me and told me that he saw a sign with my name on it and would send me a bird. I wrote about this and posted it already somewhere in another thread. I can't find it now...

Five years later I listen to this record that practically hypnotized me. The lyrics sounded familiar...I knew what he was talking about...kind of...about abduction...but something was different about him...something had gone terribly wrong. He knew he was deceived...he was talking about blood and death and it certainly wasn't the run of the mill peace of and light shit that the typical new ager spews on a regular basis.

I bought the previous records and knew for sure that was what he was talking about. I still didn't understand all of it...I still don't understand all of it.

But God told me to write him a letter. I tried but it didn't come out quite right...wasn't happy with it. So then God told me to send him flowers. That's when the writings happened. When I began to write a "get well soon" note to accompany some flowers that I had no idea how to get to some rock star. The whole thing seemed ridiculous to me at the time. I had no idea what I was in store for.

During the writing of the second letter something else happened. I was in my trance like state and writing one night, and God told me to put down the letter and get my Bible and read Revelation. I hadn't read my Bible in a long time...years maybe. So I did what He asked and I was right in the middle of it when something distracted me. It was the sound that the tires were making on the pavement on the street going past my house. Sounded like the street was wet. I hadn't heard any rain...didn't hear any water in the gutters. So I was sitting there listening and wondering if it was raining and then I heard a rumble of thunder which answered my question. Then I felt something on my arms...my upper arms. This tingling sensation. It's hard to describe because I've really never felt anything like it, but the best I can do is to say it felt tingly, like when your limbs "fall asleep" from lack of blood flow and then the blood rushes back in...only my arms had not fallen asleep. It didn't feel like that really, I just don't know how else to describe it. I immediately knew that someone was there with me...standing in front of me...two beings actually. And don't ask me how I knew because I have no idea, I just knew. And so because of all of the weird letter writing shit that had been going on in regards to this rock star I asked "Rock star, is that you?" And the sensation got a lot stronger, like he squeezed my arms really hard or something...it didn't hurt at all...it felt great actually...but it got stronger, and so I took that as a "yes"...that it was him. The sensation slowly went up my arms to my shoulders to my neck and to my face. It lasted for several minutes all together I suppose...I really wasn't paying attention...and then it stopped and I was alone. My Bible had fallen off my lap, and I was sitting there with my head tilted back and my hands on my face, as they had followed where ever I had felt the sensation. And I was thinking "What the fuck just happened to me?" I didn't realize until later that he had given me a hug and a kiss.

God had told me a week or so before that happened that I would swallow the monster whole with a kiss...and had reminded me of that Nirvana song called "Heart Shaped Box". He had already told me that this silver heart shaped jewelry box that I had belonged to the rock star too...I was supposed to send it to him with one of the letters...or so I thought at the time....with my crucifix necklace in it that I got at St. Marks in Venice. The jewelry box had belonged to a good friend of mine who had died of cancer years ago.

Anyway, apparently the kiss is what healed the rock star...somehow...don't ask me how I have no idea why or how...I don't know. All I know it that after that the Holy Spirit came flooding into me like a whirlwind and over the next several months I was not myself...I was...on fire. Everything changed...everything was so intense...I had so much energy...I learned so much...and I still to this day have no idea what if anything I accomplished, but...

I woke up from a very intense and frightening dream at 7am on 7/7 and the fire was gone. And I've slowly progressed back to my old self since then...minus the addictions...and changed forever because of what has happened to me.

Rock star is not only a rock star, but he is also John, who wrote the book of Revelation...reincarnated. He is the one who ate the little scroll that contained the prophecy regarding the mark of the beast. Rock star accepted the mark by eating a carnivorous fruit...just like eve and adam ate a fruit. Now he will prophecy to the world...and I get to help too...even if it's just to love the shit out of him while he does it. We're going to have a baby. God told me that I'm the chosen lady that John writes to in 2 John. And that I'm the woman in the story of the woman and the dragon in Revelation...rock star is the eagle that flies me into the desert...he is the eagle that in Rev 8:13 announces the fifth trumpet blast. Chapter nine is about the aliens...the locusts are the aliens...the scorpion sting is the mark of the beast...that is why it says that men will seek death in those days but will not find it. Our child will apparently be the morning star. I'm not even sure what that means...but whatever it means, I know that he will rule over the nations with an iron scepter, and dash them to pieces like pottery. I don't know how this is going to happen. There are so many things I don't understand.

And I could go on about the details of all of this...it just seems to go on for forever and ever.

I will say that much of this understanding that I've received about what has happened to me and to my rock star, God has given to me using art...music, books, paintings, movies...it's been such a trip...and it just goes on and on.

Jesus rocks...

Love,

Lori

I am not mocking, but I can't resist asking if the rock star is Snoop Dog. ;)

Rock star contacted me while I was out here...he wrote me poetry...on this site, and he emailed me once with it. It used to piss me off cause I hated poetry...I didn't understand it and I didn't understand him. He finally spoke some "english" to me and told me that he saw a sign with my name on it and would send me a bird. I wrote about this and posted it already somewhere in another thread. I can't find it now...


This is literal?
He emailed you directly and conversed with you?
Did the correspondence continue?
When was the last time you heard from him?

You keep talking about when you "came here" am I correct in assuming that "here" is sciforums?

During your correspondence, did he mention anything of John, the prophetic verses in the bible or his contacting you via his astral projection?

How much of this has he acknowledged being aware of?
What was his reaction to your letter (if any)?

Is this the bird thread you mentioned? (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=710936&highlight=bird#post710936)

I am well aware that I could be thinking from a very skewed perception and faulty anthropomorphic reasoning, but I always view "God" as having a personality.
If he does, then I think his evolution is fairly inevitable.

Where do you stand?
Why do you ask?

I ask these questions more as an excersise in broadening peoples ideas of what they worship.
I suppose it is inevitable that people will place certain human traits upon the object of their worship. Traits such as an ability to make decisions and feel anger and grief, and yet refuse to allow for the fact that with every decision the decider must change and evolve accordingly.
It seems to me that God or should I say his definition is sort of caught up in a time capsule, stuck in the times of 2000 odd years ago. Religion and in this case specifically Christianity is virtually obsolete and needs updating urgently.
IMO.

I have certain beliefs and knowledge that I can not openly discuss. Mainly out of respect for the delicate nature of others belief systems.

Suffice to say that the community off mankind could be greatly enhanced by allowing "god" to exist as he is and not as we think he should be or what some old books may claim he to be.

Often I advise if people want to find the truth about God to just go find a quiet place somewhere and watch a sunset. If you can feel the joy and the music that is being played out in front of you you have discovered God. If people just drop the speculation and just behold that which is themselves they have found God.

But of course this is just poetic license is it not....

I do find it somewhat disturbing that even religious arguement about the nature of God is so distorted. That persons can claim to be acting on behalf of God when they perpetrate an evil against his creation.

That the God that exists today and not yesterday is being falsly represented by such as Manson and other fundamentalists.

I don't believe for a moment that God is unevolving or changing as change is inevitable in all things including that which is God. I don't believe that the God as depicted by most religious groups exists nor will he ever exist in the form of their definitions.
However he does exist whether you believe or not, as belief in him is not necessary for him to exist. I don't believe for a moment that God is less than what he is. He cannot be the moron or imbecile or the fool that most religions tend to think of him.
And on that basis I can not accept religious interpretations, however that doesn't discount my belief in the ever evolving force that is God.

Telepathic communication not being the only way in which they can interact or influence. They can possess people who are willing and/or preferrably heavily drugged to the point of an extreme reduction of will or consciousness. And they can also possess the bodies of animals with relative ease. I've had them interact with me a couple of times.

But in the process, my ex-husband...who hears voices in his head and has for years...convincing him of a conspiracy against him...making him suicidal...and landing him in the psychiatric hospital on three occasions now. Anyway, they used him to communicate to me...they spoke through him. He called me on the phone one day...drunk and stoned as hell and as usual...and told me things about what I was going through that he had absolutely no way of knowing...no way at all.

I wasn't shaking, I was practically convulsing.

...It wasn't the tv or stereo...he was alone at the time and at home. It was an evil hissing almost synthesized sounding voice. I couldn't make out what it was saying, though I recognized that it was saying something. I got the creeps and deleted it almost immediately. I later regreted deleting it.

And the weirdest thing was that every time I looked at it...from my bed, in the dark, out the window, and approximately forty feet away into the back yard...it would move. Every time I looked at it...even just to glance at it...it would get up and reposition itself. It freaked the shit out of me.

And so I'm standing in my closet this one afternoon...rearranging my clothes...winter to summer changeout...and out of nowhere my head goes slamming into my closet shelf. I had been standing still...trying to decide how to organize it all. It's not like I lost my balance or ran into it...I wasn't even close to it. I swear it was as if some invisible hand came along and shoved my head right into it. The next day I slammed my finger in my car door at the gas station and that was it...I f'ing went off...at God.

And then there is also demonic interaction that happens in the spiritual realm...as with lucid dreaming, astral projection, and alien abduction. I've never experienced this myself, and am no expert, but I do know from hearing testimony of those who have experienced, that one's body can be left asleep/paralyzed, while their spirit goes elsewhere and interacts with deceptive/demonic spirits/beings. Astral projection could explain how Manson was able to collect personal information about his followers without their knowledge or consent...or information about other things...that would have convinced them that he was the Christ.

Anyway, with any kind of spiritual influence and/or interaction/communication, there are resulting manifestations in the physical realm. This is what the Bible refers to as "fruit of the spirit". And it says that the identity of the spirit is made obvious by it's fruit...a good spirit yielding good fruit and a bad spirit yielding bad fruit. I think that in the case of my ex-husband, and Manson, the fruit is obvious...as it also is with myself and in contrast.

Shit, I'm ridiculed, rejected, and have my sanity questioned simply because I claim to know Him...to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit...to have experienced this miracle because of Him.

Ok Lori, it may come across in previous posts that I dislike you, but that is not true. I have never met you and only dislike what you have said. I personally care about you and your well being, and it is for this reason that I write this post, not out of spite or some plot to perseccute the religious for their beliefs.

What I want to say is that you are seriously showing several signs of schizophrenia and I think you need to look into the possibility that you are suffering from it. Here is a link to a personal health site: Schizophrenia Information (http://health.yahoo.com/centers/personality/000928.html)

Seriously, please take a look at the symptoms and consult a doctor. Like I said, I am not trying to single you out or discredit you, or blame these symptoms on your religion, it is due to a chemical imbalance that these things happen, which are mostly hereditary and you are not to blame in any way. Trust me when I say that I am telling you this out of all good intentions. I have a friend that struggled with schizophrenia, he too had delusions of a religious nature and he abused drugs, which aggravated the situation. He dropped away from school and social life and ended up hurting himself resulting in hospitalization. The doctors they put him on a medication that completely straightened him out though, so he is fine now.
So please talk to somebody, preferably a professional, about your episodes and start on your path to recovery as soon as possible.

-ZERO MASS

BTW
I have been involved with the paranormal and psuedo sciences for many years. I do realise this means zilch to most and frankly it is not my concern. However I do know that preparations are under way and have been for some time for the age of God to come to mankind and the rest of the universe.
These preparations have been occuring essentially at a subconcious level, and are yet to manifest consciously.

God is evolving...... that there is no doubt of.

To me what this means is that the future of this universe is guarranteed, and I find great joy in knowing this. And what is most important is that it doesn't matter what anyone believes, worships, of does. This age will occur regardless. So sit back be as good as you can and enjoy the ride......

I am not mocking, but I can't resist asking if the rock star is Snoop Dog. ;)

No, it's not Snoop Dog...that's funny...lol.


This is literal?

Yes.


He emailed you directly and conversed with you?

Yes...though I barely understood anything he said...lol...and what I did understand I interpreted as craziness and basically disregarded.


Did the correspondence continue?

No, it was a one time thing. I wasn't very nice to him, and I pretty much blew him off.

When was the last time you heard from him?

Well, like I said, this happened around 99 or 2000...I think he emailed me in 2000. I have a bad memory...

But he is a celebrity...so he's interviewed a lot...I see him in videos and on tv...I've got just about everything he and the band have ever put on tape. They also have a website for the band that he has posted on occasionally, so I've read that.

As I said, he is also out here. I said that I could be wrong about him posting out here, but I know that I'm not. I know who he posts out here as...as least one name that he goes by. He doesn't come out here to the religion forum under that name though...he posts in the more "geeky" forums. But he can read my posts...he knows what's going on with me. Keep in mind though that he's never identified himself to me or to anyone out here...the only reason that I know who he is is because God told me.

See, we can't communicate with each other...we're not supposed to. After the kiss happened, I expected him to come and see me or to at least call me or something right away. I slept with my clothes on and on the couch for several nights afterward. Constantly looking out the windows...staring at the phone...waiting. Until God explained to me that it was going to be a while...and that this time spent apart is for witnessing purposes. I'm telling my story...and he's telling his...thousands of miles apart and in very different ways...but the exact same story. There's actually more to it...see, I told you that he can astral project right? Just like he came to me in the spirit for the kiss and hug, he can come to me anytime...I just don't know he's around. I actually think he's around me a lot...watching me pick my nose or whatever...I don't know. The band is writing and recording a new record and it's gonna be all about this...what has happened.

You keep talking about when you "came here" am I correct in assuming that "here" is sciforums?

Yes. I used to post out here under my name "Lori".

During your correspondence, did he mention anything of John, the prophetic verses in the bible or his contacting you via his astral projection?

No, not at all. He didn't know any of this about his identity (as John) until recently. He found this out through me and our interaction actually. He didn't understand who he was or why any of this had happened to him until Jesus got ahold of him, and he was introduced to Jesus through me...I think that's how it went down anyway.

All he said in his email was that he would send me a bird???

Some of his lyrics though make me think that he has visited me in this way for years now...since that time back in 2000. Watching me...and waiting for this to happen I suppose. Man, I really hate speaking for him. Like I said, I'm getting this from song lyrics and I don't understand everything from his perspective...barely from my own. But that's the impression that I get anyway...

How much of this has he acknowledged being aware of?

None...there is no acknowledgement. It's all coming in the form of an album I suppose. There is no communication between us at all in any way. I see things in him and have heard him say things to others that provides confirmation and some understanding of what's going on with him. But most of my confirmation and understanding has come from God Himself and actually from other people, and other people's art. I know this must sound so strange to you...


What was his reaction to your letter (if any)?

I only sent the first one, with the silk flowers, which were returned unclaimed and unopened from the band's po box two months later. Somewhere out here, I've described why I didn't send the second letter. It involved me sitting on my couch and watching a piece of paper with the band's po box address written on it and the stationery and envelope packaging shrinking up into a ball right before my eyes on my coffee table. That's because we're not supposed to communicate "conventionally". He was apparently reading both of the letters over my shoulder as I was writing them anyway. So given the fact that the first letter was returned unopened, we have never communicated with each other in any way...I've never even seen his band in concert. That is me and the rock star...I did communicate with crazy bird dude back then, but didn't know it was the rock star, and the only reason that I know that now is because God told me, not because he's ever identified himself out here. Does that make sense? lol...


Is this the bird thread you mentioned? (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=710936&highlight=bird#post710936)

Yes, that's the one.

Love,

Lori

Why don't you send him a Private Message?
He must know who you are, and he doesn't need to make any public acknowledgement to reply to your PM.

By the way, what does my name have to do with anything?
Why would you be wary of telling me who he is due to my name?

Ok Lori, it may come across in previous posts that I dislike you, but that is not true. I have never met you and only dislike what you have said. I personally care about you and your well being, and it is for this reason that I write this post, not out of spite or some plot to perseccute the religious for their beliefs.

What I want to say is that you are seriously showing several signs of schizophrenia and I think you need to look into the possibility that you are suffering from it. Here is a link to a personal health site: Schizophrenia Information (http://health.yahoo.com/centers/personality/000928.html)

Seriously, please take a look at the symptoms and consult a doctor. Like I said, I am not trying to single you out or discredit you, or blame these symptoms on your religion, it is due to a chemical imbalance that these things happen, which are mostly hereditary and you are not to blame in any way. Trust me when I say that I am telling you this out of all good intentions. I have a friend that struggled with schizophrenia, he too had delusions of a religious nature and he abused drugs, which aggravated the situation. He dropped away from school and social life and ended up hurting himself resulting in hospitalization. The doctors they put him on a medication that completely straightened him out though, so he is fine now.
So please talk to somebody, preferably a professional, about your episodes and start on your path to recovery as soon as possible.

-ZERO MASS

Sweetheart, I appreciate your concern, I really do...sincerely. And I really do not blame you, given your perspective, to recommend such a thing to me. But I swear to you I'm as sane as the day is long. What I am telling you is the truth, and will someday, hopefully soon, be confirmed by said rock star. See Zero, as I've said before...in a way, I do think I have schizophrenia ironically enough...because I believe that the Holy Spirit is not the only spirit that can "talk" to people or interact with people. But as the fruit of the spirit dictates, not all of the spirits are holy...only one...the rest being demonic...and landing you in the mental ward, or on drugs, or incapacitated somehow, if not dead from suicide. As weird as what I am attesting to sounds, I am happy, healthy, drug-free, and for the first time in my life, estatically glad to be alive. You'll see Zero, one day all of you will see that I am AOK.

XOXO,

Lori

Another question.
How do you know this is not an evil spirit?
As you have essentially said (and many other people attest to) evil spirits are conniving, beguiling and very clever masters of disguise.

Lori, I must agree with Zero Mass but not for the same reasons.

What I read is a person who is despartely trying to cope with her experiences.
As to whether they are delusional or psychosis or whatever is not so much the point, howver your ability to cope with those experiences is.
A simple question needs to be asked and you don;t have to reply here at this forum.
The defining aspect of any serious problem is whether or not you are able to function as most "normal " people do. For instance are you able to maintain relationaships, are you able to hold down a job? Are you able to talk about other things besides your "esoteric" experiences?
These are the questions that determine your need for medical help. Having beliefs is not the problem but how you behave according to those beliefs is.

You sound as if you are verging on exhaustion. Please if you have answered the above questions to the negative seek help. Some medications that can be provded give you a chance to slow your thoughts down so that you can deal with your experiences. They will also raise your fear thresh hold so that your anxiety level is reduced, thus you can relax a little and take stock and get somesort of balance back into your life.

My perspective on all this is rather simple. The 'Tsunami' this past weekend says it all. To hear some say "I thank God for chosing to save me" is assinine. If God chose to save one person he also chose to kill 120,000+, 1/3 of which were innocent children. The majority were poor working people and the others were comparitively rich vacationers.

There is no excuse and there is no God. It is that simple.

Why don't you send him a Private Message?
He must know who you are, and he doesn't need to make any public acknowledgement to reply to your PM.

Well, because we're not supposed to communicate. He wouldn't respond to me if I did. There would still be a record of it. I have a feeling that the whole point is that this miracle will be investigated. This thing is gonna be huge, and people are going to be searching really hard for a way to disprove it, and I'm not going to give them one. That's why I don't want to tell who he is...the rock star's name. Because I don't want anyone to be able to say that the rock star just happened to be cruising the net and just happened to come across my posts here at exo, and though it would be some great publicity stunt to confirm my story. Though when I consider that, it still doesn't disprove anything. He's been writing lyrics about this and telling his friends and family about this and living with this for years. I just want him to be the one who "comes out"...I don't want to "out" him. He's got an amazing voice and he's an eloquent writer, he can handle it...I can't imagine him needing my help.

By the way, what does my name have to do with anything?
Why would you be wary of telling me who he is due to my name?

Well, remember how he's the crazy bird dude and he said he's send me a bird? A raven is a bird. And actually it is the specific type of bird that I believe was used by demons somehow with him...in their presentation to him...during the deception. This is evident from things I've seen.

Love,

Lori

BTW
I have been involved with the paranormal and psuedo sciences for many years. I do realise this means zilch to most and frankly it is not my concern. However I do know that preparations are under way and have been for some time for the age of God to come to mankind and the rest of the universe.
These preparations have been occuring essentially at a subconcious level, and are yet to manifest consciously.

God is evolving...... that there is no doubt of.

To me what this means is that the future of this universe is guarranteed, and I find great joy in knowing this. And what is most important is that it doesn't matter what anyone believes, worships, of does. This age will occur regardless. So sit back be as good as you can and enjoy the ride......


The age of Aquarius. Yea, things are about to get freaky. Remember what I've told you about the aliens ok?

Love you,

Lori

I am happy, healthy, drug-free, and for the first time in my life, estatically glad to be alive. You'll see Zero, one day all of you will see that I am AOK.

I am glad that you now believe you are ok, I truly am, and if you believe that you are then it couldn't hurt to talk to a doctor about it to confirm you medically. If you can give me a legitimate reason not to go to the doctor then I won't mention it again.

But like I said, it is better to be safe about it and check it out. So please do

-ZERO MASS

But, when this does come out, all you have said will still be on the net and readily available to anyone that wants to look at it.

If I am watching TV, and Bono comes on and said he met his soulmate during an out of body experience and he is actually the resurrection od John, you can be DAMN sure a bell is going to ring in my head, as well as anyone else who has ever read this.
Word WILL get out, and all of what you have posted here will be published in a sensational book, in all likelihood written by me (in which, of course I, one_raven, will claim to be the bird that he sent you ;)).

I don't understand why it matters if it comes out now or later, the end result will be the same.
Some will believe and praise God, some will call you both crazy freaks and say you put John and Yoko to shame, some will think it is a big publicity stunt and some will think that Bono is the devil incarnate and send him death threats.
Then it will fade into obscurity when the next sensation comes along.
(Not that I'd complain, I'm sure I'd sell a lot of copies of my book)

So, what's the difference between now and then?

You mentione you mom wanting you to get an MRI or CAT Scan or something to rule out a brain tumor (the forhead pain during the event, and all).
Did you ever get it?

Lori, I must agree with Zero Mass but not for the same reasons.

What I read is a person who is despartely trying to cope with her experiences.
As to whether they are delusional or psychosis or whatever is not so much the point, howver your ability to cope with those experiences is.
A simple question needs to be asked and you don;t have to reply here at this forum.
The defining aspect of any serious problem is whether or not you are able to function as most "normal " people do. For instance are you able to maintain relationaships, are you able to hold down a job? Are you able to talk about other things besides your "esoteric" experiences?
These are the questions that determine your need for medical help. Having beliefs is not the problem but how you behave according to those beliefs is.

You sound as if you are verging on exhaustion. Please if you have answered the above questions to the negative seek help. Some medications that can be provded give you a chance to slow your thoughts down so that you can deal with your experiences. They will also raise your fear thresh hold so that your anxiety level is reduced, thus you can relax a little and take stock and get somesort of balance back into your life.

The answer to those questions is that I'm actually functioning better than normal. People notice too...I'm happy, healthy, and off drugs and most other self-destructive behaviors that people succomb to, including myself in the past. Trust me, if there was anything "wrong" with me, my family would have my ass to the doctor in no time flat. They had me examined medically when this first happened...an mri of the head. They though it may be some physical anomaly, but they found nothing. And because I'm completely sane other than the fact that I attest to this miracle, they can't justify taking me to a shrink...they know I'm sane...we talk all the time...we're close and they know me very well.

To be honest with you, this has been a real challenge for me. It has been somewhat exhausting and it's complicated and confusing to me sometimes...it hasn't been easy. It's been the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with...and the most amazingly wonderful thing at the same time. Nothing good ever comes easy does it? I know that it's in God's will...that it's His plan for my life...my destiny...my redemption and restoration. And He has kept me through it all. Despite my selfish and whining flesh wanting to complain because it can't have it's own way all of the time, I am actually so happy and grateful that I can't even put it into words.

Love,

Lori

I am glad that you now believe you are ok, I truly am, and if you believe that you are then it couldn't hurt to talk to a doctor about it to confirm you medically. If you can give me a legitimate reason not to go to the doctor then I won't mention it again.

But like I said, it is better to be safe about it and check it out. So please do

-ZERO MASS

Right now I don't have health insurance. That's a pretty good reason huh? I did not too long ago and I still didn't want to talk to one. Just sounds like such a drag. And nobody's putting me on drugs...I've done enough drugs and I'm done with them for good.

Trust me Zero, I'm fine.

*smooch*

Right now I don't have health insurance. That's a pretty good reason huh? I did not too long ago and I still didn't want to talk to one. Just sounds like such a drag. And nobody's putting me on drugs...I've done enough drugs and I'm done with them for good.

That isn't a reason, it is an excuse. I am sure that if you are in such good standings with your family they will be willing to pay. If worst comes to worst go see a social worker, they can do a limited screening and suggest medical advice and with their order I am sure you could get a trip to the doctor paid for. If worst comes to worst I am sure that we could ask around and get enough money. Please try to seek counsel from the medical community.

-ZERO MASS

But, when this does come out, all you have said will still be on the net and readily available to anyone that wants to look at it.

If I am watching TV, and Bono comes on and said he met his soulmate during an out of body experience and he is actually the resurrection od John, you can be DAMN sure a bell is going to ring in my head, as well as anyone else who has ever read this.
Word WILL get out, and all of what you have posted here will be published in a sensational book, in all likelihood written by me (in which, of course I, one_raven, will claim to be the bird that he sent you ;)).

I don't understand why it matters if it comes out now or later, the end result will be the same.
Some will believe and praise God, some will call you both crazy freaks and say you put John and Yoko to shame, some will think it is a big publicity stunt and some will think that Bono is the devil incarnate and send him death threats.
Then it will fade into obscurity when the next sensation comes along.
(Not that I'd complain, I'm sure I'd sell a lot of copies of my book)

So, what's the difference between now and then?

Oh good God, not Yoko!!!!!

Um, I think it matters because I haven't said his name out here, so as far as he knows, I could be talking about David Bowie or Michael Jackson. So people can't claim that he came come out here and knew from what I've posted that I was talking about him. Even though he really does know that I'm talking about him. My friends and family know his name, but they're not going to correspond with him so they're safe to confide in. Listen, I didn't claim that what I'm doing/not doing made sense...I just don't want to fuck anything up you know? This is too important.

And you are right...in that no matter what I do, some still won't believe. Not because of any evidence or lack thereof, but simply because they don't want to.

Maybe you are the bird that he sent me?

Love,

Lori

If I had to hazard a guess, I would have to say it is Scott Stapp.
You don't have to confirm or deny if you don't want to.

I have to say, I have known quite a few people with psychotic delusions, and, although I am not necessarily saying that's what this is, you HAVE to admit, you are displaying all the classic symtoms.
Denying reason.
Refusal to face the situation in the "material realm".
Justifications that don't even make sense to you, yet you still cling to them...

I am just saying that if I were you, I would contact the person directly and discreetely and face it head-on.
Tell him it's time you guys face up to this.

I would have to do it just for my own sense of satisfaction and need for physical corroboration.
I know you said you can't be mistaken that it really did hapen, but these things have a way of being easily misunderstood (like the Halloween thing) and perhaps you are misinterpreting your visions.
Don't you owe it to yourself to at least find out?

My question to Lori is, do you and the rockstar get together in the process of revealing the miracle you had, and then become the two witnesses of revelation that shoot fire upon the people that try to kill them during the end times, or however that story goes?
That would definitely qualify you for at least the symptom of grandiose thoughts described under paranoid schizophrenia in the link supplied by zero mass.
I am always sorry to join a consensus, as following a crowd usually indicates one is just as dumb as a crowd tends to be, but in this case I don't think the crowd is dumb when they suggest getting a professional opinion. Nobody can force someone to take any drugs that might be suggested as long as a person is functional enough to stay out of an institution, so there would be no harm done in getting checked out. (I know because I have a friend who is supposed to be medicated, and he sometimes tries to just work his problems out himself without taking his medication, and that is when I get a call about some "crazy" situation that has arisen.)
I went through a rough spot in my life about seven years ago, and took anti-depressants for three or four months while my environment became more bearable. It isn't a bad thing to have a problem, however, to have a problem and not be able to ask anyone for help is.
Of course there is a very small chance that your perspective is entirely correct, in which case I'll be glad to know Jesus will return soon. Hopefully he will then explain to everyone that he was never telling george w. bush what to do, and christianity won't have to take the blame for any more racist killings.

Also to quantum, like I said before - God doesn't need to change/evolve, but our understanding of God does. It's very funny that humans, with their incredibly awful track record of screwing things up, somehow feel that they can judge God. Just because we evolve enough to figure out that God doesn't want us to kill anyone, or we figure out God isn't a cosmic animal totem (or big man or woman) in the sky, doesn't mean God has changed.

also, to mac

using one argument that you interpret as disproving God's existence and then expressing an opinion based on that is like trying to prove the law of entropy by spilling some water on the sidewalk, and then saying "it splashed around all disorganized-like, so therefore everything in the universe that doesn't have an organizing force must become more chaotic over time."
In other words, stating your opinion is fine, but don't think something makes sense just because you believe it.

*That example does not express any support I may or may not have for the validity of the idea entropy is actually functioning in our universe.*

oh, and to Leo,

---- Is that what that fat lying stupid perverted insane drunk Luther told you, or are you just guessing? ----

this hateful remark of yours actually shows literary talent too, so maybe you don't have to constrain yourself to something productive like I suggested in my earlier post about you. Just be funny when you say something ridiculous, that's what George Bush does...

If I had to hazard a guess, I would have to say it is Scott Stapp.
You don't have to confirm or deny if you don't want to.

Is that the dude from Creed? Nope, but that's a decent guess I suppose. My rock star is waaaaaay hotter than him...lol.


I have to say, I have known quite a few people with psychotic delusions, and, although I am not necessarily saying that's what this is, you HAVE to admit, you are displaying all the classic symtoms.
Denying reason.
Refusal to face the situation in the "material realm".
Justifications that don't even make sense to you, yet you still cling to them...

I am just saying that if I were you, I would contact the person directly and discreetely and face it head-on.
Tell him it's time you guys face up to this.

I would have to do it just for my own sense of satisfaction and need for physical corroboration.
I know you said you can't be mistaken that it really did hapen, but these things have a way of being easily misunderstood (like the Halloween thing) and perhaps you are misinterpreting your visions.
Don't you owe it to yourself to at least find out?

Ok...ehem...Mr. Rock Star, um...it's time that we get together and face up to this head-on.

There I said it. He reads my posts so...

Here's the thing...the thing is that there is a specific date. I don't know what the date is...but I know that the day is a Sunday...he says so in a song. That's one of the reasons that I thought it was Halloween...one of many, many reasons...but whatever. See, I don't decide when it's time, he does. Well, he doesn't really either, God does. But God told him when to come and get me, not the other way around. So I'm waiting on him, and will continue to. For me to attempt to communicate with him during this time defeats the entire purpose of being separated. Why would I want to do that? God knows what He's doing, I don't...so I'll let Him handle it.

Rock on,

Lori

PS...I think it was lalapalooza last year that I saw this guy with a tshirt on that said "Even Jesus hates Creed". lmao. That is so f'ing funny. I actually like Creed though...and I would imagine that Jesus likes them too...at least it's not lame-o whitey Christian sap music...bleh...

My question to Lori is, do you and the rockstar get together in the process of revealing the miracle you had, and then become the two witnesses of revelation that shoot fire upon the people that try to kill them during the end times, or however that story goes?

You know, I've wondered about that myself, but I was not shown anything regarding the two witnesses. The two men witness for 3 1/2 years, and my story says that I go into hiding for 3 1/2 years...the same 3 1/2 years I don't know.

I went through a rough spot in my life about seven years ago, and took anti-depressants for three or four months while my environment became more bearable. It isn't a bad thing to have a problem, however, to have a problem and not be able to ask anyone for help is.
Of course there is a very small chance that your perspective is entirely correct, in which case I'll be glad to know Jesus will return soon. Hopefully he will then explain to everyone that he was never telling george w. bush what to do, and christianity won't have to take the blame for any more racist killings.

Well, I don't have a problem, I have a miracle, so the latter scenario is true. And so speaking to a shrink would be a colossal waste of time...me sitting there rolling my eyes while they use the word "coincedence" 87 times in a half hour conversation. I'll pass...

And, I'm not depressed...not at all. Going through this has been a challenge. It would be for anyone I would imagine. But what it means for me...what it's done for me...is a huge blessing...something more wonderful than I could ever have imagined for myself or for my life. It's been frustrating not knowing what to do with myself in response to it. I've never felt so inept. And I miss him...my rock star. I want to be close to him so badly...it's difficult sometimes. I've never longed for anything before...not like this. The only times I've gotten depressed is when I've set myself up for disappointment by trying to guess the date of his arrival. And even then the depression only lasted a couple of days or so, and then God steps in and lifts me back up and dusts me off and I'm fine again. So trust me when I say that there is no other "place" I would rather be than right where I am...right now. In God's will...in His plan...under His wing. This is what I want. There is nothing else...it's all I am...it's all I want for myself...it's my destiny...my purpose...and I am eternally grateful. It will be a huge relief to finally feel those big hunky arms around me, and to hear that beautiful voice explain everything to me, when he does get here. But only in God's time, and until then I'll be just fine...drooling over pictures of him and listening to my CD.


Love muffins,

Lori

Interested by the riddle I googled it and came upon this little ditty....

http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2004_02_29_archive.php

I grew up in church, but it didn't really "take" until I was 17. At that dramatic "turning-point" time in my life, I was very emotional, no real direction in my life, and one night when I was at home all alone, I dropped to my knees and Received Jesus as my Savior and Lord, amen.

Over the next three decades, I memorized hundreds of Bible verses. I taught Sunday School classes. I collected 22 different translations of the Bible. When that wasn't enough for me, I learned Greek and Hebrew so that I wouldn't have to rely on translations (Greek, by the way, is MUCH more difficult than Hebrew).

And I got to know a LOT of Christians. They're a pretty twisted bunch - as evil as any of us, but they're CHRISTIAN about it. No atheist ever fucked with me or cheated me or stabbed me in the back the way Christians did.

And I really tried to ignore the blatant contradictions in the Bible, and the descriptions of hateful, despicable acts that were attributed to God, or were ordered by him. One day, I realized that I was more moral than he was.

"coincedence" 87 times in a half hour conversation. no shrink worth his salt, would do this.
I'm glad, your not depressed.
but what about all, the concerned people, around you.
.it's my destiny...my purpose.
what destiny, and what purpose, as your a slave to the will of your god.
take yourself up, and go find your man, then it will be your destiny.
just remember your man is a solid, living, breathing, creature, not an invisble entity, go get him.

I Have finally figured out the ultimate fact...and i hope it doesn't end this forum. No one in this forum is going to convince anyone of anything, scientific proof or not. I have heard disbeleif in God merely because something bad happened. Give me a break. "You will suffer as I have suffered." ~Jesus. Also, I've heard some pretty sad arguments in God's favor, and some pretty good ones too. I'm not going to leave out the fact that i've heard some good arguments in the atheists favor, and some bad ones too. All i'm saying is that very few if any are going to be moved in their thinking by an unprovable argument.

Guess we'll know in like 70 years. 100 years for those of you exercising while reading this.

I know this sounds bad for my argument but i hope i'm wrong about there being a god because, IF I'M RIGHT, and i'm not preaching here med. woman., but IF I'M RIGHT, alot of people in this forum are going to be screwed.

Nothing but love for ALL of you,

Michael

I myself wouldn't presume to be able to convince anyone to believe in God. I just think people like to blame God for everything when it is really mostly humans that screw things up, even if they blame it on God afterwards and say, "he told me to do that."
Do the people who blame God for the incredible death toll of the recent tsunami know that here in america we have equipment which will tell us if there is seismic activity underwater which will give us about an hour to evacuate? But instead of helping prepare other countries (who didn't have natives to kill for their resources like we did) with that expensive equipment, america buys hummers, and $6000 tv sets.
Then we blame God that over 100,000 people die.

Also, trying to disprove or prove God's existence (which is not my intent), is no less futile than trying to convince Lori to act sensibly and spend two hours of her life with a mental health professional so that she can at least have options for her way of understanding her miracle. Even if it is just to get a good medically approved reason to say, "I'm not schizophrenic."

Also Lori, i wasn't saying you were depressed, i was merely pointing out that people can be helped temporarily by a prescription and it doesn't have to affect your whole life.
And please stick to your plan, don't go after "your" rockstar. If you wait and he doesn't come for you, that will be disheartening (sometimes we misinterpret things, nobody's perfect) - but if you go get "your" rockstar, you could end up locked up, and hopefully that isn't how you are supposed to spend your 3 1/2 years in "hiding".

M*W: Atheists don't struggle with believing in a god that doesn't exist. We don't see him, we cannot hear him, nor can we taste or smell him, because he doesn't exist.


Than I don't exist either. You don't see me, you cannot hear me, you can't taste me, nor smell me, so accourding to your logic, I don't exist. Hmmmm.

Enigma'07: Than I don't exist either. You don't see me, you cannot hear me, you can't taste me, nor smell me, so accourding to your logic, I don't exist. Hmmmm.
*************
M*W: This would be true. I can only read what you write. Jesus never wrote anything, so I don't know if he existed or not.

I can read what Jesus has inspired to be writen. You can also read it, if you want.

no shrink worth his salt, would do this.

They would either have to do this, or believe what I tell them...and no shrink worth his salt would do that.


I'm glad, your not depressed.
but what about all, the concerned people, around you.

I'm so blessed with family and friends who love me so much and really make sure I know it. I get loved on a lot. And the ones closest to me don't mess around. If they thought for a minute that I needed help, they would hog tie me if they had to...which they would not have to...but they would if they had to to drag me to the doctor. After the mri came back fine, my dad had mentioned me seeing a shrink, and in response I reiterated a description of my "state of mind". For the first time in a long long time I was happy, and fulfilled, and had purpose, and I wasn't bored anymore...I was healed of all of my addictions, and was not self destructive anymore...I was taking better care of myself than I ever had...quit smoking cigs and pot and quit drinking, and was exercising and taking vitamins and eating a healthy diet. Where before the miracle happened I was a mess! I was every kind of junkie there was from pot to junk food...spent my days getting high and watching soaps on tv and my nights at the bars after work or at my house with my addict friends getting loaded. I was an addict for 21 years. I told my dad that it would seem rather ironic to send me to a shrink now. The medical doctor that I saw told my parents that I was probably experiencing a manic episode and that I would eventually "come down" from my "high", and that's when it would be bad. So I told my dad that we should wait and see what happened...and that if I came down and fell into some deep dark depression and went back to self-destructive behaviour or fell apart emotionally, then that would be a good time to look into seeing a shrink. He had to agree with me because of the logic that was presented and so he did. He's still waiting...and I keep getting better and better. What are you gonna do?

what destiny, and what purpose, as your a slave to the will of your god.
take yourself up, and go find your man, then it will be your destiny.
just remember your man is a solid, living, breathing, creature, not an invisble entity, go get him.

I'm no slave...this is voluntary. Back when this whole thing started, going on six years ago, I gave the whole "man situation" up to Him to take care of for me. We had a long conversation one night after I realized that I was getting a divorce. I learned a lot that night from Him. I told Him that He was going to have to find me a man...after He convinced me that He could...that there was one out there for me...and I've been waiting since.

He really knows how to exceed one's expectations, God does...lol. You should see this man He's got for me...absolutely unbelievable. And yet he is a solid, living, breathing creature...absolutely beautiful inside and out...and as real as the day is long. It's not about finding a man...men are to be found everywhere...it's never been a problem. It's been more of a problem trying to lose them...lol. It's about finding the right man...the perfect man for me...and only God can do that...and so He has...because I had faith in Him to do so. I just wasn't having it any other way.

Love,

Lori

Also, trying to disprove or prove God's existence (which is not my intent), is no less futile than trying to convince Lori to act sensibly and spend two hours of her life with a mental health professional so that she can at least have options for her way of understanding her miracle. Even if it is just to get a good medically approved reason to say, "I'm not schizophrenic."

But I don't see how they could hear what I have to say about what's happened to me and not diagnose me as such. And I'm just not into that diagnosis or the reprocussions of it at all. It's either that diagnosis, or they would have to believe what I was saying...and that's just not going to happen. It's clear that no one is going to believe a word I say about this until my rock star confirms it.


Also Lori, i wasn't saying you were depressed, i was merely pointing out that people can be helped temporarily by a prescription and it doesn't have to affect your whole life.

Well, considering the fact that this miracle healed me of a 21 year drug addiction, I would find it completely ironic for me to seek a prescription...lol. See what I mean?


And please stick to your plan, don't go after "your" rockstar. If you wait and he doesn't come for you, that will be disheartening (sometimes we misinterpret things, nobody's perfect) - but if you go get "your" rockstar, you could end up locked up, and hopefully that isn't how you are supposed to spend your 3 1/2 years in "hiding".

You're very witty. Yea, I'm not seeking to contact him, as tempting as it is sometimes and as much as I'm looking forward to being with him...I'd have to be an idiot to want to screw this up with selfish intentions like that.

Love,

Lori

Enigma'07: Than I don't exist either. You don't see me, you cannot hear me, you can't taste me, nor smell me, so accourding to your logic, I don't exist. Hmmmm.
*************
M*W: This would be true. I can only read what you write. Jesus never wrote anything, so I don't know if he existed or not.


I don't have to read anything He wrote because I know Him and He talks with me and interacts with me all the time in all kinds of ways. You should meet Him, He's totally cool...maybe if you ever manage to get your head out of a book and want to...

Actually, He wants me to tell you something so I will. He wants you to know that the feeling that you got at the Vatican was from the Holy Spirit...it was God communicating with you that has caused you to change your life quite drastically in regards to organized religion and wildly research certain things since then. He also wants you to know that God is not organized religion...that they are not the same thing...and that they are not to be equated to one another. He wants you to know that He is a real being with a real Spirit that as a matter of fact has interacted with yours and caused all of this shit to happen in your life in the first place.

There now...don't shoot the messenger...I don't want to hear it...I'm just doing what I'm told.

Love you,

Lori

Lori,

It sounds like you have an escape route planned in case everything goes to hell (figuratively speaking), and if you are not hurting yourself or anyone else while you wait, I guess we should lay off. But can I offer one friendly suggestion?
If you say "the rockstar", instead of "my rockstar" it won't sound as...

well...

crazy.

Lori,

It sounds like you have an escape route planned in case everything goes to hell (figuratively speaking), and if you are not hurting yourself or anyone else while you wait, I guess we should lay off. But can I offer one friendly suggestion?
If you say "the rockstar", instead of "my rockstar" it won't sound as...

well...

crazy.


lmao...

Sorry dude...he's mine. We're betrothed to one another by our Father.

I always wanted my very own rock star...thanks God.

Jesus rocks...

Love,

Lori

so Lori, after you get him what are you going to do for the next 40 years?

ok, i tried.
Don't blame me when people call you CRAZY.

Than (sic) I don't exist either. You don't see me, you cannot hear me, you can't taste me, nor smell me, so accourding (sic) to your logic, I don't exist. Hmmmm.

This is a lame, tried-and-not-true argument. By definition things do not exist if you can not perceive them or observe them in any way. But we have proof of your existing in your posting, what I am responding to right now. If god(s) posted on this forum then we would have some indication that they existed. So get it through your head that comparing the existence of some lamer on the net with poor logic and spelling skills is not the same as proving the existence of a deity.

so Lori, after you get him what are you going to do for the next 40 years?

Have a lot of really great sex.

Oh yea,

Lori

ok, i tried.
Don't blame me when people call you CRAZY.

I won't...I think I'm actually getting a bit used to it. Hm...that's kind of scary.

What can I do but be honest? *shrug*

Love,

Lori

and when you are not having sex?

“ Originally Posted by Quantum Quack
so Lori, after you get him what are you going to do for the next 40 years?
”
Have a lot of really great sex.

Oh yea,

Lori
---

Well, my experience HAS been that the craziest girls I have ever dated, although their craziness became a serious detriment to my having an enjoyable life, were the best in bed...

Just an observation:
As with almost all extraordinary or extreme states of mind sex or more to the point pleasure of sexual origin comes into the picture to distort and drive the illusion of truth.

The mind finds pleasure in the illusion and usually manifests itself in sexual desire. Normally this is referred to the manifstation of the demon of material pleasure.

To have "god's" voice lead you to a relationship that titillates suggests that even the voice of God is some how tainted.

One of the main resaons why abstinence was so important to teh clergy ws to avoid teh distortions of motive and thought that sexual desire creates. However in denying their sexuality only manifested in some, extreme behaviours that we often read about in the news papers.

So Lori, I ask you just how important is the sexual aspect to your revelations and so on. Because if they are the driving force you are in trouble.
I admit I really don't expect a truthful answer.

and when you are not having sex?

We have a lot to talk about...it'll take forever. We have a lot to share...with each other...and with the world...about what God has done for us...with us...and through us. And what He can do for them too. This miracle is all about Revelation prophecy...we have to tell people what God has shown us...warn them.

He's the most prolific guy on the planet...has to be. He's even productive while asleep apparently. I'm sure he'll keep me plenty busy.

And we're going to have a baby too.

Warm fuzzies,

Lori

For the first time in a long long time I was happy, and fulfilled, and had purpose, and I wasn't bored anymore...I was healed of all of my addictions, and was not self destructive anymore...I was taking better care of myself than I ever had...quit smoking cigs and pot and quit drinking, and was exercising and taking vitamins and eating a healthy diet.

Okay, but addiction, smoking, and drinking are not the the serious sins. Someone eventually can rid thimself of them. Pride is the serious sin, that's what I've found.


Actually, He wants me to tell you something so I will. He wants you to know that the feeling that you got at the Vatican was from the Holy Spirit...

But M*W also could say it was the devil trying to trick her. Only by what she said, practically anything could of caused her to have this impression. The people who've tried to reform the church, inside out, perhaps they had the same feelings. Perhaps. But why did they choose to remain but others didn't, that I don't know. I should think, though, that they didn't base their decision to remain based upon this feeling, same with those who left.


it was God communicating with you that has caused you to change your life quite drastically in regards to organized religion

Okay, what do you mean by organized religion? If simply opposed to disorganized, organized seems to be a bit better.


and wildly research certain things since then. He also wants you to know that God is not organized religion

Agreed.

“ Originally Posted by Quantum Quack
so Lori, after you get him what are you going to do for the next 40 years?
”
Have a lot of really great sex.

Oh yea,

Lori
---

Well, my experience HAS been that the craziest girls I have ever dated, although their craziness became a serious detriment to my having an enjoyable life, were the best in bed...

Well there ya go...lol. It's been a long, long time. And I told God, when I made my decision to become celibate, that the next time I had sex, I wanted it to be not only with my husband, but the kind of sex that He meant for us to have. I call it "God sex". And judging from how God always infinitely exceeds my expectations...I'd say that we'll probably blow the roof right off my house. :D

That's the spot,

Lori

Lori, how about the competition.?
Surely this rock star has women coming out his arse so to speak.What about them?

And judging from how God always infinitely exceeds my expectations...I'd say that we'll probably blow the roof right off my house.
I would suggest that your expectations were just to low to start with......
Sorry Lori for sounding so much like a party pooper, am just trying to ground your notions of heaven........

the competition?
If he is a real rock star he'll have sex with them too, of course.

Just an observation:
As with almost all extraordinary or extreme states of mind sex or more to the point pleasure of sexual origin comes into the picture to distort and drive the illusion of truth.

The mind finds pleasure in the illusion and usually manifests itself in sexual desire. Normally this is referred to the manifstation of the demon of material pleasure.

To have "god's" voice lead you to a relationship that titillates suggests that even the voice of God is some how tainted.

One of the main resaons why abstinence was so important to teh clergy ws to avoid teh distortions of motive and thought that sexual desire creates. However in denying their sexuality only manifested in some, extreme behaviours that we often read about in the news papers.

So Lori, I ask you just how important is the sexual aspect to your revelations and so on. Because if they are the driving force you are in trouble.
I admit I really don't expect a truthful answer.

Well then why do you ask? lol. You'll get an honest one anyway. Honestly, when this happened, I didn't know much about this guy at all. I had listened to three of their cds for a few months. Prior to me listening to them, I had never heard of the band before. There was only one pic of him in the cd covers that I could make out any features on, and it's not a very good one. I didn't have internet access at the time and I didn't have mtv2 on my cable so I could not easily access pics or videos of him at all. I had to go to my mom's and use her computer to try to look stuff up about him...to find out about him. I wasn't thinking about sex at all...not at all. I was thinking about aliens and what they may have done to him. I was thinking about the mark of the beast and what it meant for him. I was thinking that God must have lost His mind telling me to write this guy a letter. I was on the net looking to find an explanation of his lyrics...in vain...there was no explanation. Only a butt load of obsessed fans trying to theorize about them and figure "the mystery" of them and the band out. He had given some artistic crapola answer when asked about their meaning...saying that he wanted everyone to interpret them in their own way and to mean something to each individual...and that they were personal. He would not tell. Knowing what I know, I don't blame him. I wanted to make sure he hadn't explained the lyrics because I felt like the biggest ass in the entire world when I thought of having to write him regarding their meaning.

While out there trying to find a clue, I saw a lot of pics of him. Like I said, people are obsessed with this guy. Guys think he's a god, and girls lust after him like nothing I've ever seen. Honestly, I didn't get it. From what I saw of him at the time, I found him to be creepy...and not very attractive. Sorry baby if you're reading this. I didn't think he was unattractive necessarily...he was just hard to see really...and so morose and angry. I didn't understand him back then...I didn't understand anything back then. And I was intimidated as hell by him. God told me back then that if I took the fear out of my intimidation, that I would be left in awe. And of course, He was right. He always is. Now that I understand him, and I've seen so much more of him since then...of his personality...learned so much more about him...I have grown to love him dearly...and so he has become the most attractive man in the world to me. He's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. But you know that what makes people beautiful isn't what's on the outside, but what's on the inside that shows through. And he has a beautiful heart. He is so intelligent, and creative, and romantic, and talented, and disciplined, and prolific. And yet is so humble and caring and compassionate. He is the strongest and bravest man in the world. He has passion. And he has incredible faith...faith that can bring the dead back to life. Faith that can change the world...and help many people...save many lives. I absolutely adore him, and I'll trust him with my life.

It's funny...back then God told me so many things, but one thing that He said to me...after I had been looking at rock star on the net was..."Don't you think you look alike?" And I said, "No, not really". It was kind of hard to tell actually, but I didn't think so...not much anyway. I took that one little pic that I had of him from the cd cover to the mirror and looked and was like, "I dunno, maybe???" Then God said, "You have the same Father." And I thought "wtf?" And God said, "He doesn't know his real Father either." And I immediately thought of my biological father, whom I do not know. I do though have a couple of pics of him...his senior hs pic and him and my mom at their prom. So I got those out and compared the pics of him and rock star, and you know they looked like they could be father and son. I was shocked. I thought that God was trying to tell me that this guy was my long lost brother from my biological father's side of the family. And God said, "I didn't say that you were brother and sister, I said that like you, he doesn't know his real father." And then I realized that God was referring to Himself...his spiritual Father. And I said, "Oooooooooh." So, for a minute, I actually thought this guy was my brother. Which lead me to consider some other things about my brother the rock star. Which is actually what I call my real brother, who is also a musician. He is a guitar and bass teacher, and plays in a local cover band, and is amazingly talented. I've always referred to him as "my brother, the rock star".

Immediately after that, God directed me to read the story of Isaac and Rebekah in Genesis ch 24. He used it as an analogy pertaining to rock star and me. And because of this, I think that rock star and I are related on my biological father's side, but more distantly...like Isaac and Rebekah were. I digress...

Anyway, to sum up my feelings...first of all, this whole thing is very surreal to me. To think of myself with this guy is just so over the top...it's just something that I wouldn't imagine in my wildest dreams you know. I would never think of such a thing. Not even in fantasy. I've never had delusions of trying to hook up with some rock star or any famous person...that shit is for stupid teenagers. I didn't even think such things back then, and I'm a grown woman now. It seems to weird to be true...and yet at the same time, it makes perfect sense...explains many things about me and my life. But it's still so surreal. Secondly, I look at this guy and think what the hell is he going to want from me? I mean, I don't doubt God one bit, and if He says that we're meant for each other then I believe it, but that doesn't mean that I "see" it. Because when I look in the mirror, I'm not young enough, not pretty enough, not glamorous enough, not smart enough, not nice enough, not talented enough, and yea, not sane enough. I just don't see it, but I believe it still...only because I know God, and I know that He doesn't lie. Thirdly, I don't deserve any of this. With God, it certainly is never about deserving anything. I deserve to be dead and in hell. I deserve to be alone at the very least. And what is God's "punishment" for me having an abortion those years ago? For me to get to have a child for Him. Do you have any idea how loving that is? How graceful that is? How that melts my heart? It is truly amazing what God had done for me...how God treats me...loves me. His grace is truly amazing. And so, even if I was to never get to see or to be with this man, to be his wife or to have his child, I would still be so grateful for God to have used me to help him in this way. I told God that I didn't want my life unless it belonged to Him, and I meant it....it's the only way that it has any value to me is if He is living through me...if I am living in His will. For me to be able to see my own life be used to help someone...to save someone...to do something good for once...something right...that is the blessing. It's not about me...it's not about me getting laid or getting what I want. It's about God. Most of the time I talk crass. It's not that I'm being dishonest, it's just that I tend to express myself in a way that does not necessarily reflect the depth of my true feelings. It's just easier for me to speak that way...it's the language that most people use most of the time. The truth is that I could die one very happy woman right now knowing that God used me to help this man...and that I am forgiven.

*sniff, sniff*,

Lori

All this stuff sort of remnds me of the Wacco Texas incident with that man called David Karesh [spellings?]
He also was found to be very attractive with his mix of spirituality and profound sexuality. Polygomous and kids getting born every where. But sadly in the end 75 or so people died in their insane support of a messiah complexed man. Not to mention something similar in the form of the Jones Town Masacres. [hundreds died I think]
The point is as has already been pointed out with reference to the Manson character, perceptions can get bloody distorted when there is a heady mix of spirituality and sexuality.

The hard questions that need to be asked is " Why has God suddenly decided to show the light yet offer insanity as a reward for devotion?
Why is God not talking to every one? Why just you?

If God is truely God why woudl he focuss his attention on just one person and not the entire planet?
Whats the point of telling only one person and then expecting her to be found credible when the world will not do so?

Hard questions like these are going to save your skin Lori, as maybe God is testing your ability to reason and find a rational way of living.

How easy is it to delude someone if you give then what they want with out declaring the price?

Lori, how about the competition.?
Surely this rock star has women coming out his arse so to speak.What about them?

It's crazy the way girls freak out over him...I'm gonna piss some girls off really bad. Maybe a death threat or two. He's gonna break some hearts. But if they really love him like they say they do, they'll want him to be happy and to be loved. And I really love him, and I hope that in time they will see that he's happy and they'll forgive me.

Who am I kidding, they're going to hate me. :(

Love,

Lori

the competition?
If he is a real rock star he'll have sex with them too, of course.

Hey! That's not funny. My man's not a slut. He even wrote a song or two about it. I would suppose that he has been celibate a hell of a lot longer than I have. He's a good man...you take that back Cole. :mad:

Love,

Lori

Hey! That's not funny. My man's not a slut. He even wrote a song or two about it. I would suppose that he has been celibate a hell of a lot longer than I have. He's a good man...you take that back Cole.

One thng I have learned over the years:
"If you ignore reality it's going to come along and bite you on the bum"

The hard questions that need to be asked is " Why has God suddenly decided to show the light yet offer insanity as a reward for devotion?
Why is God not talking to every one? Why just you?

QQ, I'm not insane sweetheart. And I'm just going to ignore the reference to Koresh and Jones and Manson for the most part, except to say that the fruit of the spirit is obvious to the observer. And in my case, will be as well.

And God is certainly not just talking to me...He talks to lots of people. He talks to those people who want Him to talk to them...who want to hear Him...and so are listening. Asking and listening takes faith. Seeking a relationship with Him is a very real endeavor, and one that is never futile. Having this relationship with Him and this ensuing knowledge of Him is what being born again is.


If God is truely God why woudl he focuss his attention on just one person and not the entire planet?
Whats the point of telling only one person and then expecting her to be found credible when the world will not do so?

God uses those who offer themselves and their lives up to Him to be used. And I will be found credible...you will see...give it a minute...He's not done yet. There will still be some who will not believe, but not because I'm not credible or because there is no evidence, but only because they don't want to believe, and for no other reason.


Hard questions like these are going to save your skin Lori, as maybe God is testing your ability to reason and find a rational way of living.

How easy is it to delude someone if you give then what they want with out declaring the price?

I have found the only way to live. The only way that I'm willing to live. It's just that what seems rational to this world is many times nothing but a lie...one big distraction from the truth. And so I no longer look to this world for the truth, but to the source of it, that is to God. Because of this, the way I live may seem irrational to others who do not know what I know.

Love,

Lori

One thng I have learned over the years:
"If you ignore reality it's going to come along and bite you on the bum"

No, I would imagine that he may bite me on the bum, and that I may just like it. :D

Ouch...do it again,

Lori

cole grey --- the competition?
If he is a real rock star he'll have sex with them too, of course.

Lori --- Hey! That's not funny. My man's not a slut. He even wrote a song or two about it. I would suppose that he has been celibate a hell of a lot longer than I have. He's a good man...you take that back Cole.



response --- ok, but first you must admit that it was funny.

Seriously, I will tell you something from my experience as a songwriter, not from a hunch or a prophetic word, but from actual experience, not just mine either, I have worked with a lot of other songwriters too;

1. sometimes you write about other people
2. sometimes you write about yourself or others as you wish you/they were, not as you/they actually are
3. sometimes you write about how you think things will some day be, or could have been
4. sometimes you put a line into a song that doesn't express exactly what you would like it to say because it just sounds right with the music (good examples of this are david bowie, and the beatles
5. sometimes you write something that means something to you, and people interpret it in a different way that is meaningful for them (most of the best songs fit this category)

All that to say, until the rock star confirms your interpretations of every lyric, you can not know exactly who this person is by studying their art. Sure, you can probably get a halfway decent rough idea, but you would be foolish to presume you can predict their actions based your interpretations of their art.

And rock stars like to f*** around.

Sorry.

cole grey --- the competition?
If he is a real rock star he'll have sex with them too, of course.

Lori --- Hey! That's not funny. My man's not a slut. He even wrote a song or two about it. I would suppose that he has been celibate a hell of a lot longer than I have. He's a good man...you take that back Cole.



response --- ok, but first you must admit that it was funny.

Seriously, I will tell you something from my experience as a songwriter, not from a hunch or a prophetic word, but from actual experience, not just mine either, I have worked with a lot of other songwriters too;

1. sometimes you write about other people
2. sometimes you write about yourself or others as you wish you/they were, not as you/they actually are
3. sometimes you write about how you think things will some day be, or could have been
4. sometimes you put a line into a song that doesn't express exactly what you would like it to say because it just sounds right with the music (good examples of this are david bowie, and the beatles
5. sometimes you write something that means something to you, and people interpret it in a different way that is meaningful for them (most of the best songs fit this category)

All that to say, until the rock star confirms your interpretations of every lyric, you can not know exactly who this person is by studying their art. Sure, you can probably get a halfway decent rough idea, but you would be foolish to presume you can predict their actions based your interpretations of their art.

And rock stars like to f*** around.

Sorry.

Ok, I suppose it was a little bit funny...probably much more so to anyone but me.

I'm not stupid.

And "my" rock star is different. That's why I love him so.

Fuzzy bunnies,

Lori

And God is certainly not just talking to me...He talks to lots of people.

And I suppose all the other female Lusty fans aren't also in some sort of commune with a "god" as well.

Maybe you should talk go some of them and see if they say the same thing you are saying?

And "my" rock star is different. That's why I love him so.

Fuzzy bunnies,

As I said earlier Lori I have been involved in teh paranormal for many years and what I am about to suggest may at first be rather amuzing and then possibly quite scary.

"Maybe your Rock star and your God are one and the same thing."

And I suppose all the other female Lusty fans aren't also in some sort of commune with a "god" as well.

Maybe you should talk go some of them and see if they say the same thing you are saying?

I haven't heard any of them attest to anything like I've experienced, but I can't speak for anyone else. Did you have to capitalize Lusty? I Love him.

Love,

Lori

As I said earlier Lori I have been involved in teh paranormal for many years and what I am about to suggest may at first be rather amuzing and then possibly quite scary.

"Maybe your Rock star and your God are one and the same thing."

That's a very strange thing to say...and I don't understand what you mean. My rock star is definitely not God though...he's a man, and he's not Jesus. I'm fairly certain, from what I've been shown that he is John, who wrote the book of revelation, reincarnated.

Love,

Lori

This is a lame, tried-and-not-true argument. By definition things do not exist if you can not perceive them or observe them in any way. But we have proof of your existing in your posting, what I am responding to right now. If god(s) posted on this forum then we would have some indication that they existed. So get it through your head that comparing the existence of some lamer on the net with poor logic and spelling skills is not the same as proving the existence of a deity.

Then how do you know that I am not god? But then, I could also be a super computer programed to respond to such questions. Or, I could be an alien from a distant galexy(which would explain my poor spelling skills). You cannot make such judgements without seeing me in person.

I think we should just have an elijah project. All religions call upon their god. Athiests can...uh...call upon the nothingness that everything came from (what a dumb thought), and whoever shows up wins. End of story. If no one shows up then we'll be where we are now. But if one does, this forum will end and people will be happy again. Cause it seems to me that this forum went from the riddle of Epicurus, to everyone suggesting Lori psychiatric help.

snoopdogg, it is not wise to test God in such a way.

what is a fuzzy bunnie lori, is it a drunk rabbit.
I had an actor boyfriend, who I dumped for screwing around they all do it, it's a power thing.
there must be more girls, who idolise your guy, so be aware, none of the these guys are angels gods or saints.

snoop,

I'll admit to contributing to the digression, but it seems to me these topics and arguments can only be pursued for a period of time until your subconcious (or the holy spirit, or your biocomputer brian) can process everything and communicate more refined or fitting ideas to contribute to the search for understanding.
(I hope nobody responds that they already have understanding (although, I know Lori has understanding and everything is rosy for her), because although each of us might have some, none of us understands as much as there is possible to understand about philosophy:religion:insert name of thread here)

I think the discussion with Lori actually ended up illustrating an idea that people often forget when they get into a discussion like this:
you can provide someone sensible arguments, but people still tend to cling very tightly to what they "know" as it intrinsically has more meaning for them than some of the best arguments might.
maybe that has something to do with "free will", which is basically saying you are not a programmed machine. "Free will" doesn't imply that you can do whatever you want, obviously you can't, it's just that you are free to think whatever you want.

By the way, that is a pretty good argument for humans having a soul - your organism is pre-programmed with instinct galore, yet you have the ability to reprogram yourself in a lot of ways too. And if you tell me some animals do that too, maybe they have souls. Maybe they are the souls of people with bad karma, who the f*** knows for sure?

"We have to have free will" has never struck me as a very strong argument relating to the riddle of epicurus anyway, so the caveat doesn't bother me.
(taking away one obvious, and weak, solution makes the game more challenging)
We could very well have a benevolent God who makes everything nice for us, and God could still give us the "free will" to think God was a dumb-ass, who we would deride, thinking we could do it better, without having to give us pretty much total power to destroy the planet. E.g.,God didn't give us the ability to fly to other galaxies to destroy them, but we don't consider that an infringement of our free will...
Maybe God let us have first crack at it, so we could royally screw things up, and God doesn't have to go through everyone saying, it was better the other way, for eternity.

Ok, am I back on track now snoop? We've got the riddle of epicurus, free will, and even sci-fi in one paragraph.

mis-t says "none of the these guys are angels gods or saints"

I think this is a pretty good argument against anyone who say's "I'm God, you're God, etc." Just look at us. Weak, even pathetic at times. I think God is not the type of thing you pity for it's lack of control. The word "God" itself, especially as a contrast to the word human, implies power.

snoopdogg, it is not wise to test God in such a way.

Elijah did. Got away with it too.

Somebody help me out with this. With all the possibilities God and no God and all the in-between (astral projection, demons, angels, ect.) I'm still insanely bored with my everyday life. Not unhappy, not suffering so much, just bored. What do any of you suggest? After all i can't spend my whole life reading this forum.

P.S. has anyone really ever "astrally projected" themselves. And if so...how do you do it.

Help me out here Lori.

Elijah did. Got away with it too.

But he was acting accourding to the will of God.

No, but some people can project their subconscious desires onto other people as is the case with the rock star and Lori.

Of course when a person becomes aware of these projections they immediately make the connection to God. Simply because this is the domain of God. The realm that God works in. Seeing the difference is very difficult especially if the person is in a state of trauma in the first place. Thus the seeds of self-deception bear fruit.

Lori appears to have picked up the subconscious projections of the Rock star that is promoted by his music and has interpreted them as the voice of God.
But as I know God talks to no one [in English of all things][he doesn't need to], it can not be God.

I think Lori, if you listen real close to the voice of God you are hearing you will find out that it is really your own voice in reflection, reflecting what you are sensing from your Rock star with a heavy dose of imagination and spiritual rapture. The voice being an auditory "refraction" [a fragmentation of your own inner voice]
The funny thing is that the rock star doesn't even know he has this psy. ability.

snoop,

supposedly Dorothy Parker said, "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity. "

I would say this is true, because I am pretty much never bored.

The question is, would you rather be bored, or constantly pecked at by questions you can't answer, like a harassed birdie-momma?

I can say I am basically never bored, but am often vexed by questions I can't answer, questions which I think are of the utmost importance, while most people could care less.

Which would you prefer?

Which would you prefer?
Damned good question!

No, but some people can project their subconscious desires onto other people as is the case with the rock star and Lori.

Okay. But note that this is of the subconscious. Lori wouldn't even need to choose to have this projection.


Of course when a person becomes aware of these projections they immediately make the connection to God. Simply because this is the domain of God. The realm that God works in. Seeing the difference is very difficult especially if the person is in a state of trauma in the first place. Thus the seeds of self-deception bear fruit.

Well, this isn't so. Obviously someone who hears a voice couldn't rule out the possibility that it was God or some good sign given to them. But at the same time, I think no need to assume its God. That's if your speaking simply of locutions or visions. Some of the patriachs such as Abraham seemed to have the uncanny ability of recognizing God, but for us, no doubt, this is more difficult.


Lori appears to have picked up the subconscious projections of the Rock star that is promoted by his music and has interpreted them as the voice of God.
But as I know God talks to no one [in English of all things][he doesn't need to], it can not be God.

Depends. Paul heard Jesus speak to him in English, certaintly. But God has other ways to communicate, some of which, depending on circumstance, might be better than English.


I think Lori, if you listen real close to the voice of God you are hearing you will find out that it is really your own voice in reflection, reflecting what you are sensing from your Rock star with a heavy dose of imagination and spiritual rapture. The voice being an auditory "refraction" [a fragmentation of your own inner voice]
The funny thing is that the rock star doesn't even know he has this psy. ability.

I don't know Quantum Quick. The voice could be outside of her, demonic. I can tell, though, that the emphasis is wrong. Too much in expectation when we called to expect nothing. Well, none of us is like to be able to do that, but when your receiving visions and voices that tell you to "expect," there's something wrong, I think.

I think we should just have an elijah project. All religions call upon their god. Athiests can...uh...call upon the nothingness that everything came from (what a dumb thought), and whoever shows up wins. End of story. If no one shows up then we'll be where we are now. But if one does, this forum will end and people will be happy again. Cause it seems to me that this forum went from the riddle of Epicurus, to everyone suggesting Lori psychiatric help.

I'll play...I've already called on Him...and when my rock star shows up, then Jesus wins. Fair? Can't say when that will happen, but...it will happen.

I was thinking today how strange it is that people would suggest such a thing of me...about getting pyschiatric help. I've been dealing with this impression that others have since this happened to me...it will be a year in March. At first I was pissed about it...offended. But then at the same time, I also couldn't really blame people for their opinions when I thought about the things I was telling them...it's just so over the top...it's not like I don't realize that it is. So for a while I went back and forth, being offended and then understanding...the reaction of the flesh vs the reaction of the spirit. I did a pretty good job of keeping the reaction of my flesh to myself I must say...and that's good, because it's really great to have people who care about me, and I appreciate it very much. Now I no longer feel offended, but it's more amuzing to me, and in a surreal kind of way. I still just can't fathom that people think I'm nuts. It makes me chuckle, but it's really not funny. I don't know...

Can you guys try to put yourselves in my shoes for a minute and try to imagine how it would feel to have something like this happen to you? To experience a very real and important and fairly consuming supernatural event. And then you try to share it with others...tell them about it...and people don't believe you and think you've gone nuts. This place I'm in is a very weird place. It's a pretty lonely place too, if it weren't for God here to keep me company. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of loved ones and friends around me...it's just that no one understands. There is one man who understands in this whole world...and for now, I'm not allowed to talk to him. It's hard. It's odd. But it's so worth it. You'll see.

Love,

Lori

Lori, it is always teh same when experiencing paranormal or supernatural events. Any one who is not experienced in these things goes through this phase of intense excitement and fears, some don't make it though and end up in institutional care some do make it through and realise the supernatural is just an extreme of what is actually part of a greater reality.

When you are able to sit down and cope with your experience like a walk in the park, then you will know you are on top of it. But at the moment it's got you by the balls so to speak [ovaries will do] and the energies involved are amazingly potent....

it reminds me of the Greek mythology [well I think it was Greek.] of the Sirens call and how men in ships had to tie themselves to the ship to stop themselves from abandoning ship in pursuit of the source of the sound. Such was the allure of the sexual nature of the sound [feminine no doubt] How they would steer their ship onto rocks, [ loose the ability to rationalise and reason]

what is a fuzzy bunnie lori, is it a drunk rabbit.
I had an actor boyfriend, who I dumped for screwing around they all do it, it's a power thing.
there must be more girls, who idolise your guy, so be aware, none of the these guys are angels gods or saints.

Well, I think it may be obvious that I had a glass of chianti last night. :rolleyes:

It's just me being stupid...trying to be cute.

And yes there are plenty o girls who idolise my guy...that would be a vast understatement actually. But I'm not looking for an angel, god, or a saint even...just an honest man, who is born again and loves Jesus like I do...a man I can trust. And I trust this man completely and without a doubt. And it may sound strange but the reason I trust him doesn't have as much to do with him as it does with God. Because I know God and we have this relationship, I have grown to trust Him with my entire life. He is perfect, all knowing, all seeing...He created me and instilled the desires of my heart in me, and knows exactly how to fulfill each and every one of them. He knows me better than I know myself. And most of all, I know that He loves me...a love this great does not exist in this world...I experience it and it amazes me. And so I know also from experience that He always, always acts in my best interest. And consequently, when He says to me, "Lori, this man is your husband." What else would I say except, "Ok...and thank you." That's a long way of saying that I trust this man because I trust God.

Let's say snuggle bunnies,

Lori

Lori do you think the same God is telling your rockstar that you are his wife? Afterall relationships take at least two to tango and in your case you are assuming at least three.

How would you feel if you were to write him a letter asking him if God had told him that you were his wife?

What do you think his response would be?
Surely if God had told you that he is your husband he has also told him that you were his wife, and if not why not?

As I said to you before, if you were to express your experience in a way that sounded less crazy, some people might not be as quick to point you straight to the shrink.

I'm still suggesting saying "the rockstar" instead of "my rockstar" would be a start. If you hold onto saying things that are generally attributed to psychopaths, like claiming ownership of a person who you don't even have normal and earthly communication with, people might tend to label you with

quacks like duck + walks like duck = duck

even if they are wrong.

Lori, let's face it you are in love, simple, and you are going to defend that love all the way to hell and back. The question really is what are you in love with? A real person ? An idea? An experience? What?

a long time ago as part of my research I was talking to a psychiatrist who said something that really stuck in my mind.
"People fall in love with their psychosis, and it is this love that destroys them."
now he was talking from a clinical perpective, deeming the patients experience as psychosis.

I guess sometimes we love riding a rollercoaster too....

Somebody help me out with this. With all the possibilities God and no God and all the in-between (astral projection, demons, angels, ect.) I'm still insanely bored with my everyday life. Not unhappy, not suffering so much, just bored. What do any of you suggest? After all i can't spend my whole life reading this forum.

P.S. has anyone really ever "astrally projected" themselves. And if so...how do you do it.

Help me out here Lori.

Ok yea, you didn't have to ask because this post had my name written all over it anyway. Because I had felt the same way for all of my life...just bored shitless. And it did not matter what circumstance was going on in my life at any particular time either...because the boredom was not due to lack of activity or stimulation. I was constantly busy and entertained...school, jobs, family, boyfriends, friends, a marriage, a house, traveling, partying my ass off. Actually, that's the reason I think that I was so inclined to get high...to relieve my boredom. It actually helped quite a bit. I was still bored, it's just that if I was high, I didn't seem to mind it so much...my boredom wasn't as frustrating to me if I was high. No matter what I did though, nothing made it go away. I did my best to distract myself from it, but it was just systemic...nothing relieved it. My whole life, and in regards to life I've asked, "This is it? You've got to be kidding. This is it?" And I've had a life that most people would envy...it's not like I had anything to complain about.

I don't feel that way anymore...I'm definitely not bored anymore. It didn't happen over night, but what did finally relieve it was being born again and my relationship with God. When you live in His will, and experience your restoration and redemption in Him...your destiny in Him...there is no boredom there...anything but. It's the most amazing and exciting thing that you could ever experience...that is...your life. And it's because He fulfills those desires of your heart. The boredom and/or frustration comes from unfulfillment...and so when you are fulfilled in Christ, it goes away...it is finally relieved. It's better than any drug I've ever done that's for sure. I am so excited about my life now...I love my life...and I want to be here living it...I love being me...for the first time ever. And God did this for me, so...

Give your life up to God. Tell Him He can have at it...that you'll be His vessel, and that you want to live in His will, and experience His divine destiny for you. Tell Him that you want Him to fulfill the desires of your heart...that you want to experience His plan for your life. And then hold on tight man, cause it's a wild ride. And I guarantee you that there will come a time when you will not be bored anymore.

Rollercoaster of Love,

Lori

Lori do you think the same God is telling your rockstar that you are his wife? Afterall relationships take at least two to tango and in your case you are assuming at least three.

How would you feel if you were to write him a letter asking him if God had told him that you were his wife?

What do you think his response would be?
Surely if God had told you that he is your husband he has also told him that you were his wife, and if not why not?

Yes as a matter of fact, I know that God told him this very same thing. It is depicted very plainly in his art....his lyrics and a scene in one of their videos...it is very apparent that he knows that I am his wife. It's so strange because we're committed to each other without ever having met "in the flesh"...it's very odd, but it's true.

I can't write him a letter remember? He would just have to send it back unopened and unclaimed like he did the one that I sent him already with the flowers. We are not supposed to communicate during this time.

Lori loves her rock star 4-ever!

Oh well Lori, grab a picture and put in on the mantle piece above your heater if you have one, write a book called teh second testemant and wait to meet him in person just like all the other Christians are doing.
edit:
oops I didn't mean that to be so so so sarcastic.....sorry

No, but some people can project their subconscious desires onto other people as is the case with the rock star and Lori.

Of course when a person becomes aware of these projections they immediately make the connection to God. Simply because this is the domain of God. The realm that God works in. Seeing the difference is very difficult especially if the person is in a state of trauma in the first place. Thus the seeds of self-deception bear fruit.

Lori appears to have picked up the subconscious projections of the Rock star that is promoted by his music and has interpreted them as the voice of God.
But as I know God talks to no one [in English of all things][he doesn't need to], it can not be God.

I think Lori, if you listen real close to the voice of God you are hearing you will find out that it is really your own voice in reflection, reflecting what you are sensing from your Rock star with a heavy dose of imagination and spiritual rapture. The voice being an auditory "refraction" [a fragmentation of your own inner voice]
The funny thing is that the rock star doesn't even know he has this psy. ability.

QQ, you're not correct about this. I knew God's voice and had conversations with him years before ever hearing the rock star's music. And His voice is not a refraction of my own inner voice either. He has a different tone, and speaks in a different way. Not only does He say things to me that I would never say to myself...being that these things would never just occur to me from out of the blue...but He says these things in a way in which I would never say them. He speaks very directly and truthfully. Not necessarily in a "formal" way...He just doesn't use any extraneous or unnecessary words, and He doesn't lie, not even to exaggerate in order to make a point. He has said things to me that I didn't necessarily want to hear. I mean, I asked Him to communicate with me and to give me answers...to tell me the truth. It's just that sometimes, the truth isn't pretty...it can be difficult sometimes to hear the truth about yourself.

Love,

Lori

Lori, let's face it you are in love, simple, and you are going to defend that love all the way to hell and back. The question really is what are you in love with? A real person ? An idea? An experience? What?

I am in love with a very real person. Come on QQ..what kind of question is that anyway? Ok, I do and have wanted to be married...and not just in a "legal" or secular kind of way...but in a "biblical" or spiritual kind of way. I've missed being married, just not the man I was married to. :rolleyes:

And it is this "experience"...this spiritual occurrence that has brought me and this man together in this way. And so I am very grateful for the experience.

But this man is what I am in love with...who I am in love with. I admire and respect and trust him with my life. I absolutely adore him...every little thing about him...even the mistakes...even the things that I have yet to know about. I love his heart...his broken heart. And the blessing for me is to see God mend it...to witness his healing...and to be a part of it with him. I've never felt this way before about anyone...about anything...not even close. To belong to him is all I want to be...it's all I am. To be able to love him in this way...to be his wife...is all I want for myself in this world...I'll never want for another thing for myself. For others yes, but for myself no. Because in him, my joy will be complete.

Love,

Lori

and to be his vessel and trust him without doubt and his for ever, to be possessed by him...and so on...I am wondering which God you are talking about Lori. I think you have them mixed up. You can't be the vessel for two entities let alone three....

and to be his vessel and trust him without doubt and his for ever, to be possessed by him...and so on...I am wondering which God you are talking about Lori. I think you have them mixed up. You can't be the vessel for two entities let alone three....

I don't understand what you mean.

well let me see if I can show this in yuor writing by quoting the following:
About your Rock star:
Ok, I do and have wanted to be married...and not just in a "legal" or secular kind of way...but in a "biblical" or spiritual kind of way
To belong to him is all I want to be...it's all I am. To be able to love him in this way...to be his wife...is all I want for myself in this world...I'll never want for another thing for myself. For others yes, but for myself no. Because in him, my joy will be complete.

About you relationship with God:
When you live in His will, and experience your restoration and redemption in Him...your destiny in Him

Give your life up to God. Tell Him He can have at it...that you'll be His vessel, and that you want to live in His will, and experience His divine destiny for you. Tell Him that you want Him to fulfill the desires of your heart...that you want to experience His plan for your life.

do you see the similarities in these few quotes which are ony a quick collection for there are many to choose from.

Years ago and even today Nuns in the Catholic church were supposed to be virginal for a reason. Their devotion to God and Gods work had to be total with out the distraction of earthy lust/love.

They asked God to possess them and for them to be his vessel. But as a condition they required abstinance from earthy pursuits or passions.

So here we have a situation were you are Gods vessel but wish to be your Rockstars vessel as well. There is just one small problem with all this and that is you. Where are you in all this?

You have given God something he already had so that's no big deal but now you wish to give this Rock star the same deal you gave God. Why's that do you think?

Could you just simply be projecting your love for the spirit [God] onto something a bit more earthy as you lack the rigors of the monastary and seclusion that abstinance affords?

"the rock star and God are the same thing"

QQ,

No, they are not the same thing. But I do experience God's love for me through this man...I will in being his wife. And he through me. We will get to see God in each other because God is who brought us together...we are each other's gift from God...an answer to prayer.

God does not come uninvited, does not grant what is not asked, and does not take what is not offerred.

Nuns do as they do because in the Bible the relationship between Christ and His Church is described as a marriage. I think that what they do is ridiculous, and that they are missing out on something that God would have wanted for them...but what do I know? It just seems that in general, the catholic church is all about replacing a spiritual relationship between a person and God Himself, which a physical relationship between a person and their organization. So, in regards to myself, what God has in the spirit, my husband has in the flesh. I belong to them both, and we both belong to Him. Our marital union being spiritual because it is in Christ...a covanent between God and him and myself.

God gave me a vision...a depiction of a family...like a family photo. It was a mother with her child in her arms...a husband with his arms around his wife and child...and Jesus with his arms around all of them. What a pretty picture.

Love,

Lori

QQ,

No, they are not the same thing. But I do experience God's love for me through this man...I will in being his wife. And he through me. We will get to see God in each other because God is who brought us together...we are each other's gift from God...an answer to each other's prayer.

God does not come uninvited, does not grant what is not asked, and does not take what is not offerred.

Nuns do as they do because in the Bible the relationship between Christ and His Church is described as a marriage. I think that what they do is ridiculous, and that they are missing out on something that God would have wanted for them...but what do I know? It just seems that in general, the catholic church is all about replacing a spiritual relationship between a person and God Himself, which a physical relationship between a person and their organization. So, in regards to myself, what God has in the spirit, my husband has in the flesh. I belong to them both, and we both belong to Him. Our marital union being spiritual because it is in Christ...a covenant between God and him and myself.

God gave me a vision...a depiction of a family...like a family photo. It was a mother with her child in her arms...a husband with his arms around his wife and child...and Jesus with his arms around all of them. What a pretty picture.

Love,

Lori

I thought you were talking about a real boyfriend, and your a stalker, WOW! did I get it wrong, why are we giving you credence?.

Lori just as an aside the following link will take you to a musical web page I created a while ago.
This is how "God " makes me feel......
[I wrote it about 3 years ago]
http://www.paygency.com/1P&M/M_Nossoeterno.htm
make sure your pc sound system is switched on.

Mis-t,

damn, that's cold. She doesn't actually qualify as a "stalker" if she doesn't contact the guy, and just waits for him to make the move.
It does qualify as "kind of sad".

I have some music I recorded about how God makes me feel, too.
I made a page with two of my songs on it. The first (to the farthest star) is seeker music, and the second (my desire) I think Lori will appreciate.
You have to download the mp3's if you want to hear them.

I'm not encouraging Lori's blind devotion to her miracle, or paranormal experience, or fantasy, whichever it is, but sometimes it is nice if you are feeling lonely and you realize a lot of people feel that way, whether or not they have God in their lives. Or, in the case of the first song, it's nice to just rock out a little when you can't make sense of it all anyway.

ok, I now admit to being an official dumb-ass,

I forgot the link -

http://www.americansoul.net/colegreypage.htm

I thought you were talking about a real boyfriend, and your a stalker, WOW! did I get it wrong, why are we giving you credence?.

It's "you're", and I'm not a stalker. Wrong again. And who exactly is giving me credence? lol...

Love,

Lori

Lori just as an aside the following link will take you to a musical web page I created a while ago.
This is how "God " makes me feel......
[I wrote it about 3 years ago]
http://www.paygency.com/1P&M/M_Nossoeterno.htm
make sure your pc sound system is switched on.


Bravo! That was beautiful!! I didn't know that I was surrounded by musicians...how awesome is that? Must be another "coincedence". :cool:

Thanks for posting that link QQ.

Love songs,

Lori

Mis-t,

damn, that's cold. She doesn't actually qualify as a "stalker" if she doesn't contact the guy, and just waits for him to make the move.
It does qualify as "kind of sad".

I have some music I recorded about how God makes me feel, too.
I made a page with two of my songs on it. The first (to the farthest star) is seeker music, and the second (my desire) I think Lori will appreciate.
You have to download the mp3's if you want to hear them.

I'm not encouraging Lori's blind devotion to her miracle, or paranormal experience, or fantasy, whichever it is, but sometimes it is nice if you are feeling lonely and you realize a lot of people feel that way, whether or not they have God in their lives. Or, in the case of the first song, it's nice to just rock out a little when you can't make sense of it all anyway.

It's not sad damn it, it's f'ing glorious!!!!!! Good Lord...

Please post a link cause I want to download your songs...I definitely want to hear them. More scooby snacks for me...yum, yum. How exciting!

Jesus rocks,

Lori

here is the link to my songs again, separating it from the post was a confusing mistake on my part.

http://www.americansoul.net/colegreypage.htm

Cole those songs were so amazing!!!! Absolutely awesome...I love them! Wow, I'm really blown away. My desire...yea...I really appreciate that one...it brought a tear. You're very talented Cole...to have written such really good music. So what are you doing in those pieces? Is that your band? Are you singing? playing? what?

Scooby dooby doo,

Lori

my download speed is very slow so excuse the delay in commenting on Coles Music....
Maybe other readers have songs that stand out for them and would care to mention them.
A song by Sarah McLachlan, Full of Grace, stands out for me. [I haven't uploaded it]
Her song, Angel, also is amazing as well.....I think

I was thinking today how strange it is that people would suggest such a thing of me...about getting pyschiatric help. I've been dealing with this impression that others have since this happened to me...it will be a year in March. At first I was pissed about it...offended.

Lori, no we do not mean to offend you. In fact, it's likely a good percentage of us have heard unexplained voices, things like that. But the way that you have complete, total faith in them sounds illogical, if not dangerous. For if God spoke into someone, wishing them to know that it was His voice and His alone, then he'd instill into them the knowledge that it was His voice. There would be no doubt whatsoever, at least from your perspective. But this isn't true, is it? At some point, I think, you made a conscious choice that some voice was God?


Nuns do as they do because in the Bible the relationship between Christ and His Church is described as a marriage.

A Nun follow what Paul said, that by not being devoted to their husband they may devote themselves more to Christ. Doesn't mean the marriage life is worst than the religious(by serving their husbands, wives serve Christ), just that each is called to a different role.

Nice music Cole, very........

Lori, no we do not mean to offend you. In fact, it's likely a good percentage of us have heard unexplained voices, things like that. But the way that you have complete, total faith in them sounds illogical, if not dangerous. For if God spoke into someone, wishing them to know that it was His voice and His alone, then he'd instill into them the knowledge that it was His voice. There would be no doubt whatsoever, at least from your perspective. But this isn't true, is it? At some point, I think, you made a conscious choice that some voice was God?

No, um...I've always talked to myself quite a bit...but I've always known that was me...lol. Sometimes when God speaks to me it's more like an idea or impression just comes to mind from "out of nowhere". But I'll never forget the first time I heard His voice...like a very strong telepathic communication...and I definitely knew it was Him...and had never heard Him like that before.



A Nun follow what Paul said, that by not being devoted to their husband they may devote themselves more to Christ. Doesn't mean the marriage life is worst than the religious(by serving their husbands, wives serve Christ), just that each is called to a different role.


Yea, I see what you're saying. I wonder how true that really is though. You always hear the horror stories about the abusive nuns with the rulers in catholic schools...lol. Like with the priests and their vow of celibacy turning around and molesting all of those kids. I guess I just don't see it "working" in a practical sense. I would imagine that most seem more devoted to their role in the organization than devoted to Christ is all. It seems for most it may be more of a cop out or a weird "job" than a true devotion. That's my impression anyway...I could be wrong.

Love,

Lori

I need help from the forum....a call for the "forum league of justice" if you will. I have a very good friend. He is however an incredibly large jackass, and for the most part don't get along with him. I'm not actually sure how we became or remain friends, but there is just sort of that....bond there you know. Anyway, my biggest peave is that this kid alllllllllllways thinks he's right. He'll bring up anything to argue about; the president, evolution, gay rights, whether homosexuality is a genetic disease....by the way this last one would make an excellent forum. I'd like to start one but don't know how. Anyway. He'll bring this crap up and put in his 2 cents and that is the end all beat all no doubt about it answer to what ever topic we were on. Any suggestions on how to deal with him other than going through with the irritation and beating the hell out of him.

I am not a shrink (though I have seen plenty :)) nor any other type of mental health professional. I also do not know you, all I know is the very little I see here in front of me. I am just calling it as I see it and not claiming any professional experience or anything like that. This is just the advice I would give to a friend.

That said...

Put myself in your shoes?
OK.


1.) I fall so madly head-over-heels "in love" with someone that I have never spent any time with in real life.
2.) I am so "in love" with this person that I am ready to dedicate or scrifice my life for this person.
3.) I KNOW this person is just as "in love" with me and wants to be with me.
4.) This person has never acknowledged me, outside of astral projection (keep in mind, I AM experienced in meditation, out of body experiences, lucid dreaming and drugs).
5.) All of my reasoning for not contacting this person not only does not make reasonable sense even to me, but it all comes from the voice of God.
6.) The one time I DID try to contact this person, the package came back unopened (even though this band is known for opening all their fan mail).
7.) I talk about this person like we have known each other our entire lives.


OK, here would be MY reasoning if I were in your shoes...

1.) Being "in love" with someone requires getting to know them. Not through their art, not through astral projection (real or imagined), not through my built-up impression of who I think they are. Through real life interraction. Through getting to know and trust them by them being there for me in times of need (like my girlfriend taking care of me while I was sick with the flu this week), and me doing the same. It is a two-way street. Give and take. It requires EARNED and DESERVED trust and mutual respect. It requires spending quality time with the person and seeing them interract with other people on a regualr basis so you get to see and fully understand their true character. When I was younger I fell for MANY artists for their art. It took me a long time and a lot of hurt to recognize that an artist and their art are two very different things. Until I get to know a person, TRULY get to know them through inter-personal interraction and real time together, I can't BE 'in love" with them. At best, I can be infatuated with their persona or intrigued by their art and WANT to get to know them.

2.) That's not love if it's not reciprocated. It's dangerous obsession and nothing more. If this person is not willing to contact me, then it is not reciprocated, regardless of what happens in the spiritual world.

3.) If the person is not willing to publicly come out and love me in real life because the person is afraid people will think it is a publicity stunt or people will ridicule us, then that person is more in love with their career than ME. If that person is "in love" with me, and that person is a rich and famous rock star, that person would be willing to retire, step out of the limelight and settle down with me if that is what is required to be with me. The person would do a Rolling Stone interview and say, "I know this sounds cooky, but I truly believe that God led me to this person." The person is Born-Again, anyway. Most of rock star's fans would completely understand and say how wonderful it is that God did that, and those that didn't believe, SO WHAT?! I don't need people to believe I am in love with the person I am in love with. I could care less about anyone's opinion of OUR relationship.

4.) I have had some incredibly realistic believable experiences during meditation and other altered states of consciousness. I have felt people touch me, heard voices (not just in my head, but clearly whispering in my ear) I have had visions, I have had the sensation of leaving my body, I have had the sensation of communing with others WHILE out of my body. Although I do honestly believe that some of it was real, I am absolutlely convinced that some of it was just in my head. YES, my subconscious. It is a hell of a lot more powerful than you give it credit for. I have personally seen people cause burn blisters rise on thier skin without touching anything warm to it. If they can do that, don't you think you can have the sensation that someone is touching you? Or talking to you? One experience I had was communing with my father in my bathroom mirror. He was dressed in the leather jacket he used to wear when I was a kid. The last time I spoke to him he was on his way into the hospital, and I hadn't heard from him since (it was over a month, but that was nothing new for my father). I called the hospital (he didn't have a phone), I checked the Social Security database online, I called everyone I could think of and nobody knew anything. I was convinced he was dead. A few months later, my brother tried the bar he likes to hang out at and he was there. No matter HOW convincing it might be, I would never take any of these experiences as FACT, ESPECIALLY invoing someone else, ESPECIALLY someone I didn't know without some kind of confirmation in real life. Not only does this person not confirm any of this, but I am making nonsensical excuses for it and holding onto those for dear life.

5.) I'm not an atheist, so I wouldn't discount God right out of the box, like some, but I am agnostic and would, understandably, have a hard time with this. Pretty much everything from number 4 would stand for this one. Sure, maybe God does have some grand plan for me, or maybe he just wants to play match-maker for me. Maybe he is my buddy and just picked me out of 6 billion people to hook-up because of my faith. As outlandish as it might sound, is it possible? Sure! However, I can't let myself forget precicely HOW outlandish it does sound. I couldn't allow myself to use God's voice as supporting evidence (again, refer back to number 4).

6.) One of two things happened. Rock start knew who I was and is trying to push me away, and could possibly be getting nervous or the Post Office fucked up. There is NO WAY in hell I would make the connection that I am not "supposed to" contact the person! Even with point 1, 2 AND 3 put aside, the reasoning makes no sense whatsoever. The band likely gets (they way you describe them and their popularity) thousands if not tens of thousands of pieces of fan mail a week. There is no way the flower deliever person would remember my name, even if he did, he didn't know what I said in the card, even if he peeked, it would mean nothing to him. Who besides me and this person would think those flowers are of any significance to me and the person. Besides, this person doesn't sign for their mail personally! In order to have my flowers rejected, this person's assistants would have to know about us, and that is MUCH more of a risk than actualy accepting flowers from a fan. which this person does on a regular basis. It makes NO SENSE!

7.) Let's take Jack Kerouac as an example. The vast majority of Jack's work is autobiographical. Most of his friend and acquaintences were writers, and most of them wrote about him (before or after his death). He lived a WIDE open life. I have read things that he has written dating back to when he was 12 years old! I have a book filled with dozens of letters Jack has written to many people. I have heard him speak about his work and his life. I have heard other that knew him speak of his work and life. I have read books and articles wriiten about him by people that knew him and others that studied his life. I know a great deal ABOUT Jack Kerouac. Odds are I know a good deal more about Jack than you know about rock star. You know what, though? I DO NOT KNOW JACK. Moreover JACK DOES NOT (or did not) KNOW ME.


Looking at it altogether, this is the impression I get.
This happened RIGHT after you decided that it is OK to need and want a man in your life.
You had been without one, and living a self-destructive lifestyle for quite a while up until then.
You were lost, confused and desperate for some direction, some understanding, but you were still very afraid.
Afraid of what? I don't know, but I suppose it was whatever drove you to your secluded life of self destruction in the first place (yes, even when you were married, you were secluded - secluded from life and from yourself). You tell me, what drove you to drugs in the first place? What were you running away from? What were you trying to hide from all those years ago?
So, your survival instinct kicks in. That's quite a powerful thing. It gives people super-human strength at times (physically and menatlly). Your mind will convince your body of ANYTHING if it needs to. It will even lie to itself. You knew that if you stayed in the life you were in, you would be destroyed. You were probably coming to some big turning point in your life, some point of no return. You knew there was no turning back after this. You had a decision. You continue on with the path you had chosen, or you allow your survival instinct to take over. What's the easiest thing for a Christian to believe? God intervened. It is almost like a split personality. Your rational side that knows you are destroying yourself and will not let that happen, does what it has to to convince your emotional side to change, to hold on to life, to trun around before it's too late. Who knows you better than you know yourself? Of course, you can't see all this going on because, as much as you seem to hate the word, it is happening in your subconscious mind. You were ready for a man, but if another man broke your heart it would be then end of it, you were far too fragile at that point, so you had to be protected from that. Your rational subconscious mind knows that if youe confront your rock star and he rejects you, the whole smoke and mirrors set-up will fail, and you just may collapse.

You aren't crazy at all. We all do this. Regardless of what anyone tells you, we ALL do this. To what extent we do it all depends on how much we need it. You are far too intelligent and sane to need it to this level. You DON'T NEED a man. It is nice to have a companion in life, but you are not incomplete, your life is not incomplete without one. Fuck Jerry Maguire, if you need a man to complete you, then you are better off alone until you are a complete person. Find what's missing in your life and pursue it. When you see yourself as complete, then look for someone who will COMPLEMENT you and your life.

So, me, in your shoes, I think the same thing I thought last week.
Yes, it is possible, but severely unlikely.
Find out.
Write him a letter and say, "This may sound crazy, but it would be MORE crazy for me to NOT ask..."
If he says, "No." or doesn't reply, let it go. Get on with your life.
If he says, "Yes" run to him (sticking your tongue out at all of us on the way there), be happy, and let me write the book. :)

Let's look at it from another angle, Lori.
Let's say it is all true. Like I said, it could be.
You said yourself that the signs and visions etc are difficult, to say the least, to understand and interperate, right?
So, who's to say that I'm NOT the bird he was going to send you.
Maybe I am simply an unwitting participant.
Maybe God knows me well enough to know that I would push to get you to write him a letter.
Maybe this is the sign that is supposed to tell you that it's time to get in touch with him.
Let's look at that, shall we?

OK, we are assuming I am the bird, and the message is that it is time for you to write him a letter.
So, you write him a letter, and oops, you misread the sign, and it wasn't time yet.
What happens, the letter gets returned unopened, just like the flowers, and you are still in the exact same place. No harm done.
Or...
You write him a letter and he writes back confirming all this and the ball gets rolling.

If it is true, you have nothing to lose, right?
Why not write a letter spilling EVERYTHING out?

raven makes some very good points -
especially #'s one and seven. hard to refute. tsk, tsk.

But three cheers for Lori, my vote is that she gets to go to heaven for her childlike faith and love of God, so a little earthly heartbreak can't mean much in the long run. (that of course doesn't mean she shouldn't try to make the best use of this life too.)
Why do a(nti)theists think that if you believe there might be something after "this life", you automatically must try to f*** up "this life" and everyone elses?

I think, along with all the other possiblities of suggestions there are for Lori, the overwhelming, undeniable, consensus that has been reached is -
don't put all your eggs in one basket regarding this rockstar thing.

By the way, the songs on that link is my band, for lack of a better word. I sang, wrote, produced, and played gtr/pno.

No, um...I've always talked to myself quite a bit...but I've always known that was me...lol. Sometimes when God speaks to me it's more like an idea or impression just comes to mind from "out of nowhere". But I'll never forget the first time I heard His voice...like a very strong telepathic communication...and I definitely knew it was Him...and had never heard Him like that before.

I've had that too. I guess God could have put those thoughts into our heads and some we might naturally derive ourselves. But if He has left us some doubt as to their origin, He most likely doesn't want us to claim directly that they are from God, though we may look at the evidence and privately believe so.


Yea, I see what you're saying. I wonder how true that really is though. You always hear the horror stories about the abusive nuns with the rulers in catholic schools...lol. Like with the priests and their vow of celibacy turning around and molesting all of those kids. I guess I just don't see it "working" in a practical sense. I would imagine that most seem more devoted to their role in the organization than devoted to Christ is all. It seems for most it may be more of a cop out or a weird "job" than a true devotion. That's my impression anyway...I could be wrong.

A lot of movies portray nuns with rulers, and I'm pretty sure they used rulers back in the 1960s, but I don't think they use them anymore. Celebracy is an entirely different issue, though. The latin rite could change its requirements for celibracy--the matter is one of discipline not doctrine--but most of the priests, especially those in the european countries who haven't had the scandal, don't see the scandals the result of the decree to celibracy. After all, a priest could break his vow to celebracy in many other ways, none necessarily illegal. Why they'd go after young boys is mindbongling, unless of course they had the inclination before becoming a priest. But then the vows to a lifetime of celebracy wouldn't be the direct cause, only an attraction to pedophiles.

I've had that too. I guess God could have put those thoughts into our heads and some we might naturally derive ourselves. But if He has left us some doubt as to their origin, He most likely doesn't want us to claim directly that they are from God, though we may look at the evidence and privately believe so.


I have absolutely no doubt as to the origin of His voice...none.

Love,

Lori

1.) Being "in love" with someone requires getting to know them. Not through their art, not through astral projection (real or imagined), not through my built-up impression of who I think they are. Through real life interraction. Through getting to know and trust them by them being there for me in times of need (like my girlfriend taking care of me while I was sick with the flu this week), and me doing the same. It is a two-way street. Give and take. It requires EARNED and DESERVED trust and mutual respect. It requires spending quality time with the person and seeing them interract with other people on a regualr basis so you get to see and fully understand their true character. When I was younger I fell for MANY artists for their art. It took me a long time and a lot of hurt to recognize that an artist and their art are two very different things. Until I get to know a person, TRULY get to know them through inter-personal interraction and real time together, I can't BE 'in love" with them. At best, I can be infatuated with their persona or intrigued by their art and WANT to get to know them.

I know everything I need to know about this man to love him and to commit myself to him and I do. That is not to say that our love will not grow upon meeting in the flesh and spending time sharing each other...as this will continue on forever and ever. God has shown me this man...his character...his faith...and resulting accomplishments...his personality. It's like He let me take a peek inside his heart. God told me that he was just like me only a man...only stronger than I am. God told me that he was my husband...my spiritual leader. God also told me that he was my childhood imaginery friend before he was born. How extremely odd and romantic is that? Because of God, I know things about him that not many people know...and understand things about him that not many people understand...things that have been extremely personal...rather ironically, as these secrets have been the inspiration for all of his art. I have just about everything the band has ever put on tape in the form of cd's, music videos, interviews, concert footage, radio shows. And I've watched this man change...over the past 6 years or so. I've watched him grow up...having to...rather quickly. And I've watched and listened with a limited understanding, but at that, a better understanding than most others have. I've watched him become humbled...going from an angry and defiant boy to a remorseful and desperate man. It's been difficult to watch because it breaks my heart...and I'm sure I still have no idea really how bad and hard it's been for him. But I've sat riveted to the images and mesmerized by the music in absolute amazement at what he and his friends (his band) have accomplished. I've never been so impressed with anyone. I don't even know the half of how hard it's been for him and yet I still respect him and admire him more than I have anyone else in my entire life...by far. It's actually occurred to me lately that what I am going through now, and have been for the past nine months is an itty bitty taste of what it must have been like for him...only he endured for seven years...and he endured in a state of "being" that I have no understanding of...spiritual death. The strength that he has shown is miraculous and inspiring. And so God was right...I am most certainly in awe of him. Bottom line is this...when God tells me something I believe Him. And God has told me that me and this man were made to love each other. It's that simple. There is nothing in this world that is more real to me than that. As a matter of fact, this world and those in it can be very deceiving can't they? In many ways, this world and our flesh is one big lie...one big distraction from the truth which is found in the Spirit of God. You think that people don't deceive one another when forming a relationship? Think about it. My baby watches me when I think that I'm alone. He has most undoubtedly seen me at my worst...and I can be really hideous. I disgust myself even sometimes.


2.) That's not love if it's not reciprocated. It's dangerous obsession and nothing more. If this person is not willing to contact me, then it is not reciprocated, regardless of what happens in the spiritual world.

It's not that he's not willing. He is doing what he has been told to do, as am I. He is doing the right thing for me and for everyone...even for you my dear...and I'm sure that it is not easy for him. But we are all blessed by his strength and righteousness. And it is reciprocated. He wrote an entire album just for me for crying out loud. I've told you that he has made his sentiments very clear to me in his lyrics and in other ways.



3.) If the person is not willing to publicly come out and love me in real life because the person is afraid people will think it is a publicity stunt or people will ridicule us, then that person is more in love with their career than ME. If that person is "in love" with me, and that person is a rich and famous rock star, that person would be willing to retire, step out of the limelight and settle down with me if that is what is required to be with me. The person would do a Rolling Stone interview and say, "I know this sounds cooky, but I truly believe that God led me to this person." The person is Born-Again, anyway. Most of rock star's fans would completely understand and say how wonderful it is that God did that, and those that didn't believe, SO WHAT?! I don't need people to believe I am in love with the person I am in love with. I could care less about anyone's opinion of OUR relationship.

Just give him a minute would you? This is not over. And this can not be rushed. He will treat me right...you'll see. He will sanctify, honor, defend, and protect me...you just watch.



4.) I have had some incredibly realistic believable experiences during meditation and other altered states of consciousness. I have felt people touch me, heard voices (not just in my head, but clearly whispering in my ear) I have had visions, I have had the sensation of leaving my body, I have had the sensation of communing with others WHILE out of my body. Although I do honestly believe that some of it was real, I am absolutlely convinced that some of it was just in my head. YES, my subconscious. It is a hell of a lot more powerful than you give it credit for. I have personally seen people cause burn blisters rise on thier skin without touching anything warm to it. If they can do that, don't you think you can have the sensation that someone is touching you? Or talking to you? One experience I had was communing with my father in my bathroom mirror. He was dressed in the leather jacket he used to wear when I was a kid. The last time I spoke to him he was on his way into the hospital, and I hadn't heard from him since (it was over a month, but that was nothing new for my father). I called the hospital (he didn't have a phone), I checked the Social Security database online, I called everyone I could think of and nobody knew anything. I was convinced he was dead. A few months later, my brother tried the bar he likes to hang out at and he was there. No matter HOW convincing it might be, I would never take any of these experiences as FACT, ESPECIALLY invoing someone else, ESPECIALLY someone I didn't know without some kind of confirmation in real life. Not only does this person not confirm any of this, but I am making nonsensical excuses for it and holding onto those for dear life.

Well, that sounds kind of nuts to me. It must come down to our differences regarding the acceptance or knowledge of the spiritual realm. I honestly have no idea how you could experience what you have and still say that you're an agnostic. I mean what's it going to take with you? Only God knows what it will take for each of us...and He knew for me...and so that is what He presented to me...and so now I know. And what you are missing, and by no fault of your own since I refuse to divulge the identity of the artist, is the confirmation. But please believe me...there is a ton of confirmation...a mountain of confirmation. So far, six cd's of it...plus a variety of other art...interviews. You know, all of the "coincedences"...the bazillion or so "coincedences" all regarding the same thing. This will be shown...soon...and then you will see what I've seen and then you will understand.


5.) I'm not an atheist, so I wouldn't discount God right out of the box, like some, but I am agnostic and would, understandably, have a hard time with this. Pretty much everything from number 4 would stand for this one. Sure, maybe God does have some grand plan for me, or maybe he just wants to play match-maker for me. Maybe he is my buddy and just picked me out of 6 billion people to hook-up because of my faith. As outlandish as it might sound, is it possible? Sure! However, I can't let myself forget precicely HOW outlandish it does sound. I couldn't allow myself to use God's voice as supporting evidence (again, refer back to number 4).

I am very well aware of how outlandish it sounds. I'm the one who's going through it and it sounds outlandish to me. I've said that I can barely get my own head around all of this...and in many ways it's very surreal to me. But being the one having experienced it, I can assure you that this is as real as the nose on my face...there is absolutely no denying it. Aside from the "spiritual experience" itself, the material evidence and confirmation that has been provided to me has been absolutely overwhelming and undeniable. Given what has been presented to me for confirmation, I would have to be insane to deny.


6.) One of two things happened. Rock start knew who I was and is trying to push me away, and could possibly be getting nervous or the Post Office fucked up. There is NO WAY in hell I would make the connection that I am not "supposed to" contact the person! Even with point 1, 2 AND 3 put aside, the reasoning makes no sense whatsoever. The band likely gets (they way you describe them and their popularity) thousands if not tens of thousands of pieces of fan mail a week. There is no way the flower deliever person would remember my name, even if he did, he didn't know what I said in the card, even if he peeked, it would mean nothing to him. Who besides me and this person would think those flowers are of any significance to me and the person. Besides, this person doesn't sign for their mail personally! In order to have my flowers rejected, this person's assistants would have to know about us, and that is MUCH more of a risk than actualy accepting flowers from a fan. which this person does on a regular basis. It makes NO SENSE!

Listen, I don't know how it went down...but rock star definitely knew who the flowers were from, but was not trying to push me away. He's known me and been watching me, and waiting for all of this to happen for years. And during that time was not allowed to contact me, but only to pursue my interest with his music. And it does make sense. Think about it...I know this is hard to follow, but try. When this is all said and done, no one will be able to say that rock star came to me in response to a solicitation or invitation from me due to a lack of communication. There is also no way, without communication that our individual accounts/stories of what has transpired could have been corroborated...and yet we will have been witnessing to the exact same account for almost a year...or have been for almost a year...as I do not know how long this separation will last. The lack of physical or material communication will be evidence of a spiritual interaction and/or phenomenon...and it will give credibility to our testimony. Do you see that?



7.) Let's take Jack Kerouac as an example. The vast majority of Jack's work is autobiographical. Most of his friend and acquaintences were writers, and most of them wrote about him (before or after his death). He lived a WIDE open life. I have read things that he has written dating back to when he was 12 years old! I have a book filled with dozens of letters Jack has written to many people. I have heard him speak about his work and his life. I have heard other that knew him speak of his work and life. I have read books and articles wriiten about him by people that knew him and others that studied his life. I know a great deal ABOUT Jack Kerouac. Odds are I know a good deal more about Jack than you know about rock star. You know what, though? I DO NOT KNOW JACK. Moreover JACK DOES NOT (or did not) KNOW ME.

I know what I need to know, and apparently so does he. I don't know what else to say.


Looking at it altogether, this is the impression I get.
This happened RIGHT after you decided that it is OK to need and want a man in your life.

No, it actually happened five years later.


You had been without one, and living a self-destructive lifestyle for quite a while up until then.
You were lost, confused and desperate for some direction, some understanding, but you were still very afraid.
Afraid of what?

Probably failure.


I don't know, but I suppose it was whatever drove you to your secluded life of self destruction in the first place (yes, even when you were married, you were secluded - secluded from life and from yourself). You tell me, what drove you to drugs in the first place? What were you running away from? What were you trying to hide from all those years ago?

I wasn't hiding from anything...I was just bored, unfulfilled and disappointed. And in regards to men, I was afraid of them. I didn't trust them...I didn't think that they could be trusted, or that at the very least that it was a good idea to lay it all on the line in hopes that one could be.



So, your survival instinct kicks in. That's quite a powerful thing. It gives people super-human strength at times (physically and menatlly). Your mind will convince your body of ANYTHING if it needs to. It will even lie to itself. You knew that if you stayed in the life you were in, you would be destroyed. You were probably coming to some big turning point in your life, some point of no return. You knew there was no turning back after this. You had a decision. You continue on with the path you had chosen, or you allow your survival instinct to take over. What's the easiest thing for a Christian to believe? God intervened. It is almost like a split personality. Your rational side that knows you are destroying yourself and will not let that happen, does what it has to to convince your emotional side to change, to hold on to life, to trun around before it's too late. Who knows you better than you know yourself? Of course, you can't see all this going on because, as much as you seem to hate the word, it is happening in your subconscious mind. You were ready for a man, but if another man broke your heart it would be then end of it, you were far too fragile at that point, so you had to be protected from that. Your rational subconscious mind knows that if youe confront your rock star and he rejects you, the whole smoke and mirrors set-up will fail, and you just may collapse.

After knowing God personally for years, and after He was the one who explained to me what my problem was in relation to men...being the trust issue. He convinced me that I had been lying to myself all of these years. This is how it went in a nutshell...

Lori: What is my problem?
God: You don't trust men.
Lori: Well, duh. Why would I? You know what I've seen...you know what I've experienced. You know your whole "wives submit to you husbands" and "husbands love your wives as Christ loves the Church" thing sounds really nice...really nice. I mean what a relief it would be to be able to actually trust a man's intentions were in my best interest...but the fact is that the preacher man who is explaining all of this to me is most likely doing half the choir behind his wifes back and you know it.
God: Touche. So are you saying that you don't think that there is any man on the face of the earth that is as trust worthy as you are?
Lori: *dumbfounded by the last three words of His last statement* Yea, I suppose that is what I'm saying.
God: Doesn't that sound kind of arrogant to you?
Lori: Well yea, when you put it that way, I suppose it does sound pretty arrogant. So if I'm wrong then prove it to me. Show me this man who is as trust worthy as I am who I can be with. I mean, where the hell is he? Where has he been hiding?
God: So what are you going to do?
Lori: What can I do? I can't kill myself because of you. I can't go through what I've gone through with a man again...I'm just not willing to go through it again...I can't...I'm not capable of being that devastated again...I won't. And yet the thought of living the rest of my life without that kind of love that I long for just makes me want to refer back to the first option. So I ask you, what can I do?
God: Let me do this for you.
Lori: Well, you're going to have to because there is no way in hell I'm ever trusting my own judgement again. The only way I will ever be with a man again is if you provide him to me. I mean you are going to have to find this guy, cause I'm not looking, and plop him down right on my front porch, and make it so overwhelming obvious to me that he is "the one" that I can not possibly mistake him.
God: Well then I will.

And I have been waiting for five years. And I've done a lot of learning and growing and changing over those years.


You aren't crazy at all. We all do this. Regardless of what anyone tells you, we ALL do this. To what extent we do it all depends on how much we need it. You are far too intelligent and sane to need it to this level. You DON'T NEED a man. It is nice to have a companion in life, but you are not incomplete, your life is not incomplete without one. Fuck Jerry Maguire, if you need a man to complete you, then you are better off alone until you are a complete person. Find what's missing in your life and pursue it. When you see yourself as complete, then look for someone who will COMPLEMENT you and your life.

I do need a man. Not just any man. Only one man...and yes I do need him. I could live without him, but I don't want to. I need him to be fulfilled in ways that only he can fulfill me...no one else can.

So, me, in your shoes, I think the same thing I thought last week.
Yes, it is possible, but severely unlikely.
Find out.
Write him a letter and say, "This may sound crazy, but it would be MORE crazy for me to NOT ask..."
If he says, "No." or doesn't reply, let it go. Get on with your life.
If he says, "Yes" run to him (sticking your tongue out at all of us on the way there), be happy, and let me write the book. :)

Forget it, I'm not writing him or contacting him in any way...it's not gonna happen. He will come to get me...he will contact me...not the other way around. He knows when, I do not. I will try very hard not to stick out my tongue when he does. And we'll see about the book...someone's going to have to write one.

Love,

Lori

ps...I just wanted to say how much I appreciate you talking to me about all of this and your ability to be sincere and open minded. I appreciate it so much. Thank you. *smooch*

raven makes some very good points -
especially #'s one and seven. hard to refute. tsk, tsk.

But three cheers for Lori, my vote is that she gets to go to heaven for her childlike faith and love of God, so a little earthly heartbreak can't mean much in the long run. (that of course doesn't mean she shouldn't try to make the best use of this life too.)
Why do a(nti)theists think that if you believe there might be something after "this life", you automatically must try to f*** up "this life" and everyone elses?

I think, along with all the other possiblities of suggestions there are for Lori, the overwhelming, undeniable, consensus that has been reached is -
don't put all your eggs in one basket regarding this rockstar thing.

Well, I'm going to put all of my eggs into one basket...actually I have now for a long time. But it's not the rock star's basket or my own...the basket belongs to Jesus. If it wasn't for Him, none of this would be happening. And whatever happens, I trust Him completely, and so I give Him my life.


By the way, the songs on that link is my band, for lack of a better word. I sang, wrote, produced, and played gtr/pno.

You are extremely talented and have a lovely voice. I think we may be witness to a brand new genre of music that I would like to call "Christian music that does not suck". How refreshing is that? Jesus has expressed His appreciation for it to me because of this "thing" I've been going through...and because Jesus rocks.

Rock on,

Lori

PS...I also wanted to thank you Cole for talking to me about my experience and being so nice and supportive and open minded about it all. I appreciate it very much. *mwah*

I never thought anyone would call my music "christian". I guess it's because the spirituality that informs it is not in line with the fundamentalism that marks what most people (myself included) call "christian" music.
As for you, I was just suggesting not to put all your eggs in the rock star's basket. But you knew that already.
See you around...