The reason why no open contact yet.

I think it highly probable that other life has evolved on other worlds and that we have been visited and surveyed. But why haven’t we been openly contacted yet. I think because our intelligence is too low and we would have difficulty understanding their form of life.

However, I believe things are about to change. Please read this carefully, if you have not seen this before then you might be surprised.

It has been carefully estimated by a number of leading scientists that the rate of development of computing power will give us computers in equal power to the human brain by 2020. By 2030 they will reach desktop size affordability. There are now active projects throughout the world preparing for this eventuality with the intention of being able to scan the human brain and upload a digital equivalent into suitable computer architecture. At this point the human race will have begun to make the transition from a biological form to a mechatronic form. This is a major evolutionary step and it signals other major changes, e.g. continuing rapid increases in intelligence and memory, no further reliance on oxygen rich atmosphere, capable of rapid acceleration more appropriate for space exploration, able to happily exist on planets that would have atmospheres considered hostile and poisonous to humans.

When we make this leap, and it seems inevitable that it will happen rather than if, then I think we will begin to understand the probable other life forms that have visited us – which might also be mechatronic in nature. Two-way communication between us can then be by electronic images transmitted via high bandwidth connection or radio, with no need for very slow verbal language.

I think we are at the beginning of a massive series of evolutionary changes that have probably already occurred with other more advanced lifeforms. I suspect they have been waiting for us to reach a minimum level where contact between us would be meaningful.

For more information on uploading and other such philosophies see www.transhumanism.com (http://www.transhumanism.com) and for the latest theory of computer power see http://transhumanist.com/volume1/moravec.htm

So do you think this makes sense?

Have fun
Cris

we know they know & they know we know!

Nice hypothesis, but it doesn't explain a lot of things. Do you know how it figures in with abductions? Same thing with the standard "grey" format, as they are the leading EBE's, and they don't seem all that mechatronic. As with computers reaching human intelligence, I don't doubt that, but do you have a hypothesis for the uploading process date? I'm not sure that it would survive society, it's not likely that people would react well upon the news that they've become obsoulete. Just my opinion

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I wish that for every dollar I spend, that I would gain another dollar, because then yippee! I'd get my money back.

Hi Shadowflame,

I really don't know anything about the Alien issues. I don't event understand your terminology.

My idea was really based on massive differences in intelligence. For example suppose with our current level of intelligence we were able to visit other planets and discovered one inhabited by apes as the dominant species. How interested would we be in making contact and trying to explain to the apes who we were? I think we might just abduct a few for scientific study and agree to wait until they evolved further.

My proposal is identical to highly intelligent aliens discovering us. They have nothing to gain from us until we have matured.

UPLOAD DATES

There are two primary parallel research activities. The first is Neuroscience, with the intention of understanding sufficient about the human brain so that it can be accurately scanned - both for neural as well as chemical and hormonal activity. The second primary activity is computer processor technology.

The estimate is that by 2030 both paths of research will converge and result in affordable full upload capability.

At the present time the scanning methods do not provide apropriate resolution and the best methods are also destructive. E.g The brain has to be sliced very finely so that a high power electron microscope can scan the tissue without loss of information. The subject human is clearly dead at this point. If the process fails during scanning then you are screwed. It is hoped that non-destructive mechanisms will be devised. The problem there is that there would not be a clean transition from human being to mechatronic being. You would then exist in two forms.

So I kinda plan to help out a bit - finish my MSc first then proceed to a doctorate in an 'upload' direction. I hope the 2030 date doesn't shift too much, as it is I will be 78 by that time - I just need to stay alive and stay healthy for another 30 years.

Thanks for asking.
Cris

Yeeps, I'm not sure if this will be a good thing. What if something Matrix-esque happened, and the machines tried to go against us. Seems like the proggession might lead to something like that. Should we allow ourselves to die out, in the name of more efficent progress? Seems like it won't be good for the humans left.

Before I was just saying that mechs visiting us didn't fit in with current UFO lore. I believe that "robot" encounters only acount for less than 6% of sightings, and thats when they're grouped up with monsters and apes according to The UFO book. Most aliens seem more humanoid in looks. Just so you know, Greys, the most common type of being seen in abductions, are the short green-grey ones with the big eyes and slanted heads. EBE stands for Extra-Biological Entity.

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I wish that for every dollar I spend, that I would gain another dollar, because then yippee! I'd get my money back.

Thanks for the lesson Shadowflame, much appreciated.

And you are right we have the ability to really screw things up as well as make incredible progress.

As for a mix of humans and mechs - yes I think there will be problems like racism and lack of tolerance etc. If we all become mechs then I can see argumants like - I have the latest CPU upgrade so I must be more intelligent than you. Somehow, I don't think 'human' nature is going to change very much for a while yet, whether bio or mech.

Have fun
Cris

What do you think about nano-technology? It'
s in the same avenue as mechanology(is that the right word?) but more in the lines of personal upgrade. For example, you could have them in your bloodstream cleaning out junk and assisting with oxygen transportation, augment your senses, strength, etc. Could it be an alternative branch to mechs?

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I wish that for every dollar I spend, that I would gain another dollar, because then yippee! I'd get my money back.

Hi all,

Nobody has mentioned this yet so I guess I'm gonna have to. The one BIG issue that hasn't been discussed in relation to mech upgrades of humanity is SEX. Sorry I had to bring it up but if we were to upload the entire human brain and hormonal activity etc then it would include sex drive. I think this issue would cause alot of faliure...you'd be by all intents and purposes imortal BUT also lonley starved of physical contact. You can't deny that ALL mammals (sp?) share that need for contact it's a huge part of us.

Thats why I believe it would be safer to use genetic/nano-tech manipulation to extend a biological existance. Or a cyborg of sorts...who knows, regardless it would take longer then 30 years for humanity to let go of physical contact.

Now with that said I have no intention of dieing. I believe that in the near future we'll be able to extend our lives to say 150-200 years...by the time I'm about 150 I'd say the WHOLE age issue will be solved and we'll have the choice of imortality.

[This message has been edited by Rambler (edited October 09, 2000).]

Hi again Rambler,

Sex and physical contact is definitely an issue that certainly can’t be overlooked. But sex (specifically for reproduction) will be a relic of evolution where the only reason is to ensure survival of the species. When we approach a state of near or actual immortality we will not need or want to be burdened by animal instincts as the new direction will be the survival of the individual.

But touch, massage, and sex, all generate hormonal, chemical, and nerve responses that we experience as pleasure. Denial of such experiences does cause undesirable psychological damage, although many voluntary celibates might disagree. However, by the time we can upload we will also understand how the brain connects and communicates with all body parts and the hormonal and chemical messaging mechanisms must be also fully understood. In the beginning we will not want to make adjustments to the basic human psyche, the transition itself will be sufficient shock, which will keep psychiatrists in business for a considerable time. So although I don’t think we would add mechanical genitals we should be able to add external ‘touch-pads’ strategically placed that would generate the equivalent of pleasure. The choice of masturbation or excitation by others would remain essentially the same as it is now although with quite different techniques.

I completely agree that if we can survive biologically for the next, 100 years say, then aging research will have progressed to the point where that boundary will be pushed out indefinitely. The downside of a bio solution to aging is that it will take a long time to grow and evolve larger brains whereas the electronic route will likely be much faster. An electronic solution also has the advantage of digital backups. If your electronic brain is severely damaged in an accident then it will be relatively simple to purchase a new brain and have your last backup restored. That is not likely to be anywhere near so easy, if ever, with a biological body.

So once you can overcome the probably overwhelming desires to retain your existing bio form you will find a mechatronic existence has incredible advantages.

Stay cool.
Cris

PS. I noticed in an earlier post of yours an interest in the aging issue. We share the same strong feelings - I also have no intention of dying and I plan to do everything I can to survive now that real solutions appear so near.



[This message has been edited by Cris (edited October 10, 2000).]

Shadowflame,

Yes I keep bumping into nanotechnology but haven't looked at it closely yet. It has been proposed as a potential non-destructive solution to scanning the brain for uploads, but as yet this looks unlikely to be practical.

I don't know enough yet to add any real comment of value, but it looks interesting.

Cheers
Cris

Hi everyone,
I think once machines evolve and are like us they will take over. They would have no reason to keep us around and look at us inferior. It would be the end of mankind.

Gee, sounds kind of like the old sci-fi movie "Westworld"; robots turning against people, etc.

Is anyone here familiar with Asimovs Robot novels?

If so, dont you think any person stupid enough to create a self-aware machine would instill something similar to the 3 laws of robots, or whatever they were called?

Hey guys,

I think you might have missed a subtle point here.

The machines will be us. It is our brains that would be transferred into machine bodies, where we would retain all our old memories and emotions, but we would have the chances for continuous CPU and memory upgrades.

Now we could also allow pure AI machines as well, but we would be able to keep pace with them. They would simply be other sentient lifeforms.

Hope that helps.

And note the Mind Uploading research is well underway.

Have fun
Cris

As to your original que: "Why No Open Contact Yet"...
I will sum it up in three words.....

"Arrogant Control Freaks"

.....and on another note,
"Absolute Power, Corrupts Absolutley"

yo, me back

and hi time

The reason for no contact, the shiting their kegs, thats if they have an ass at all, or even where kegs (to you american kegs=pants)

Hi everyone:

I basically dropped out of the forum for two years and now back browsing what is new. A lot has chaged including adding username and passwords to get in. I wonder in 50 years where this forum will be or 100, 1000... If you think Internet is a big place, imagine the galaxy.

I do like the idea of merging computers and biology (Bioinformatics). Who knows what type of entity will emerge! Natural evolution progresses slowly until a radical break in the evolution (it is still natural though). We are at the very cusp of such break point.

My sincere hope is that we humans need to improve our brain functions first before we are ready to upload our database to a computer. We should be able to biologically improve such that all of us can have photographic memory, recall visual events, fix body's damage parts to prestine conditions, duplicate DNA without loss of information, have access to hormone and chemical levels in a conscious way...

The future will be more like the movie Terminator than a single chip becoming sentient. That is someone will write a program that uses all the computers hooked to the internet to become self-aware. Either that or developing a technology to upload ones brain to a multi-petabyte machine.

Either way, managing complexity and knowledge that will grow exponentially will be the most challenge...

Dear Cris ;
I had visions...
Check this at my website : 'Veins' project a music tribute to H.R. GIGER "Alien".
Check out the Alien Brain development part. Pass my Biography as an artist...: http://damienveen.com
Your idea on uploading our brains in a computer and then a technologically developed machine : to become a kind of terminator or robocop ; is PURE EVIL.
Listen to me these 'God's Machinas' (smashig pumpkins) are made at God's image. This (our) biological body allows us to feel the nature ; caress and even make love and feel one another's warmth and flesh ; blood pressure is emotional my friend ; a wet pussy or an ejaculation or a kiss is what life is made of so far for us humans : man and woman ; "Thru this architect's eye" (D.Bowie). How can you consider that ? Recreating us in a form that never will be humanity again !! What a complete mistake my friend. It leads to unsanity and demonic power what you believe to be the future ... Trust me our re-creation be different : our souls are energy ; Einstein did just try to hide it with some false principle that be discovered soon - maybe because the israëlit population has a revenge to take with their waited Messiah. This energy won't be quantified as you said but transfered... The future can be very different : what if our seed be double, not reproductive one day ; and we reincarnate in cloned bodies instead of metal gear...
Remember we are made at GOD's image and god won't let us recreate ourselfs as you said...

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Dear Cris ;
I had visions...
Check this at my website : 'Veins' project a music tribute to H.R. GIGER "Alien".
Check out the Alien Brain development part. Pass my Biography as an artist...: http://damienveen.com
Your idea on uploading our brains in a computer and then a technologically developed machine : to become a kind of terminator or robocop ; is PURE EVIL.
Listen to me these 'God's Machinas' (smashig pumpkins) are made at God's image. This (our) biological body allows us to feel the nature ; caress and even make love and feel one another's warmth and flesh ; blood pressure is emotional my friend ; a wet pussy or an ejaculation or a kiss is what life is made of so far for us humans : man and woman ; "Thru this architect's eye" (D.Bowie). How can you consider that ? Recreating us in a form that never will be humanity again !! What a complete mistake my friend. It leads to unsanity and demonic power what you believe to be the future ... Trust me our re-creation be different : our souls are energy ; Einstein did just try to hide it with some false principle that be discovered soon - maybe because the israëlit population has a revenge to take with their waited Messiah. This energy won't be quantified as you said but transfered... The future can be very different : what if our seed be double, not reproductive one day ; and we reincarnate in cloned bodies instead of metal gear...
Remember we are made at GOD's image and god won't let us recreate ourselfs as you said...

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I believe wholly that the aging process will be halted and nano technology will rise to a level that will eliminate almost all diseases (except nano viruses ;) but as for downloading your mind into a computer is an almost absurd idea. The human psyche could not handle being deprived of its biological part. People are known to go crazy in a sensor deprivation chamber (a form of interrogation, people will talk to the apparitions in their hallucinations) and this will have much the same affect. Personally i could never handle not being able to touch another human being. The thought that the best I could would be to superficially have contact through sensor pads is horrifying. Biological perfection is a much more likely path and I believe that is the one that will be perused. As for this being the reason that aliens are not making contact with us seems to be untrue. A more viable explanation is that are not here. The details are too vast to go into in full but Here is a really short summery. The more abductions you study the more absurd they end up becoming. Why they have abducted more than 3 or 4 people does not make any sense. Most abductions center on sex or warnings that the earth is going to end, both highly unreasonable. Cattle mutations are even less reasonable. More and more pictures / videos are being proven as just flukes and some of the most renowned pictures are found to be fakes. There is no hard evidence that they are here and that is because they are not. One day they will be, it just isn't that day yet. And specifically to Ahkros, the human sexuality and interaction point is well made but i don’t believe that anything is EVIL, it is simply the implementation that is used for "evil" or "good."

Sorry for the length of this.


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If the theory does not fit reality then reality MUST be changed.

`FA_Q2 ; I just agree with you ; my Evil notion there was a bit to harsh ; I know some will consider that I am too much into God but it depends of your education ; religion and culture somehow.
I just know that if you look sharply to it you discover that apart from the fact our body don't last for instance and can be victim of viruses or disease it is in a way a perfect conception and machine.
Yes I hope one day light comes over us and we pass into a new dimension regarding our longevity...

human being- A member of the genus Homo and especially the species H. sapiens.
human- Referring to or indicative of the weaknesses, imperfection, and fragility associated with human beings.
humanity- Human beings as a group; e.g. the human race.
Have to agree with Time and Alien in regard to their posts on this topic...I find it hard to believe that there are individuals out there willing to throw away "humanity." You speak of taking the human brain and downloading it into a mechanized creation...why bother...the human brain can be so easily be clouded by emotion...by hormonal influences...a synapse misfires...I'm sure that other anal-compulsive sociopathic emotionally-retarded geniuses in their sterile labs somewhere would figure how much more perfect and efficient it would be to better the process by eliminating the waste of time spent downloading from humans. I mean think of how much more perfect these mechanized creatures would be if they weren't hindered by the shortcomings of a "human's" brain. Their creators could also pick out each of the charateristics they wished to endow on their robotic dildos; say for convenience and productivity's sake, meekness and submissive tendencies would be two good ones---that way they would never talk back. Throw away free will and sexual intercourse for a hard drive and contrived manipulation of your pleasure center by R2D2 and C3PO!!! What you suggest is the end of mankind!
If I was ET I probably wouldn't want to stay long either for fear that some deranged person might try to take my brain and "download it!!!!"
One forgotten point...one of the truly beautiful things about nature---is how it manages to keep up with everything that man does to try and undo it...for example the good old antibiotic...ever heard of MRSA or VRE?? or the other favorite, multiple drug-resistant TB. Evolution isn't as slow as some would have you believe.

FA_Q2, have you played Deus Ex too :)? I agree in that nano-technology will probably be a safer and less emotionally and ethically straining mode of self-perfection. Also, as for most cases being gibberish, ya, lots of people are either insane or crazy for attention, but there seems to much going on for nothing to be going on. Many people aren't just loonies, many are "normal" conservitive people who are the opposite of the wackos who are often associated with the study.

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Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music---George Carlin

“FA_Q2, have you played Deus Ex too?”
Shadowflame

I’m sorry but I don’t know what Deus Ex is, forgive me for my ignorance :)

There is a lot going on and its hard to believe that nothing is going on at all. I cant figure what that might be but also disbelieve that is extraterrestrials, no evidence. Many of these people are normal but so were the ones that murdered themselves when Hailbop passed. Media hype and a few support groups can do a lot to normal people. This has been compared to the Salem Witch trials, although it is not bloody or as counter productive as that incident was.


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If the theory does not fit reality then reality MUST be changed.

FYI, Deus Ex is a computer game focusing around nanotechnology and nanoviruses. Good game, I recommend it.
But anyway, yes there is a lot of media hype and etc., but evidence of some kind of visitation has existed in the past long before media hype. Theres the ever popular Ezekial biblical quotes, evidence in cave drawings of strange beings in helmets, the "abstract animal head" mask which looks exactly like a grey, etc. There remains tons of historical evidence that something is going on. I myself don't think that they're extra-terrestrials, but are more like our cousins who have exceeded beyond Earth. I'll try to dig up some more historical evidence.

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Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music---George Carlin

I have seen much of the historical evidence you are referring to and I agree, it is an amazing coincidence. I cannot explain it all and trust me I have tried. One of the things that convinced me to "swing the other way" on this issue (as I used to be a big believer in UFO's) was Carl Segans book The Daemon Haunted World. It is a good book but anyway, i remember a statement in there that went something like this: Lack of an alternate theory is not proof of another theory. In other words, just because we cant explain it doesn’t mean it to be Extraterrestrials, or people from the future or whatever other theory out there. There just simply isn’t any proof.

This is going to be confusing, I’m not good with words. Try to bear with me.

Also, if you look at enough thing eventually you will be able to pull out some similarities that are meaningless. Hoglands Mars is a good example where geometric consistencies are pulled out of nowhere to create a pattern that is meaningless. If i take 100 random numbers, and then do a whole lot of the same calculations to each on i can come out with a single number and say hey, these weren’t random but carefully chose by me and sent to your head and i would be chatoyant.

To clarify: (x*(45+3))/48x = 1
This will always = 1 no matter what number you choose and can be misleading when pulling numbers that seem to quarrelate, such as the locations of the Pyramids and Stonehenge. Yet its not immediately visible and if I wanted I could bury this so deep in mathematics that you would never find it and I could run all kinds of numbers through the equation.

I’m really sorry if this confuses you. I’m not even sure if I can make sense of it myself but ill post it anyway. Tell me if you cant understand it.


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If the theory does not fit reality then reality MUST be changed.

Two wrongs do not make a perfect "Right" in any given scenario within our imperfect yet impecible physical cosmos! (You do the math.)

In spite of evidence witnessed by those who "Saw" or claim to have "Seen" in reguards to the infamous "Roswell Incident" I must contend that we all(or most of our combined planetary populus) must have some small voice the echos within us, the sounds of mystery & cover up in relation that something extraordinary or extraterrestrial did in fact happen, and whatever it was, those in the highes in command of our world powers, did their damndest to hide the truth for a variety of economical & political resons.

Whatever the event & cause/s or issues surounding this incident burning up our scandelous history, the lie must continue, so that those responsible for this great hoax, (Not the UFO Crash, but the lies & cover-up & Disinformational Prpoaganda backed by extortionalists organized by tri-laterals, Bilderburgers, and neo/pseodo Nazis & Templers, Necromancers & etc, it just would expose just how sick we have allowed ourselves to "DEVOLVE" to, or better yet, allowed ourselves to follow as leaders!

We all have choices to make, but when the combined choices of humanity totals to the sum of allowing ouselves to be suppressed from the truth, how are we to evolve beyond the veil it is hidden behind?

Just my own observation is that if a interstellar craft of extraterestrial origin did in fact crash on our earth back in the fourties, it would in fact count for such a rapid growth in our technology.

If this supposed crash never occured, our current Time-Line would have not been altered, and our society would not have evolved much beyond what we had in the fifties. I believe that this supposed extrarestrial interstelar craft had in fact
carried secrets of technology, technology that was latter, "reversed engineered" to contribute & assymilate to that of our own, and this direct action is a direct contributor to the "Alteration" of earth's otherwise naturally occuring chronological "TIME-LINE"

<font face=park avenue font size=12 color=blue>T H I N K..."Real Hard"</font

I understand what your saying, I've heard about it before. But what I'm saying is that while it may not be "proof" per se, it still indicates very strongly that there is some kind of influence going on. One more thing, do you recall the Mothman story?

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Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music---George Carlin

There is no “UFO” needed to account for our supposed jump in technology. Computers in of themselves can easily support that burden. Things have evolved since the fifties at an increasing rate, as things have always done. 50 years from now, the rate which we discover technology now will seem slow by comparason.

”If this supposed crash never occured, our current Time-Line would have not been altered, and our society would not have evolved much beyond what we had in the fifties.”

Technology always goes forward and very few times in the past has it ever stood still. Nowhere in modern history has it stood still.

The idea that new technology helps find new technology holds true. The more you have, the faster you get more.


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If the theory does not fit reality then reality MUST be changed.

FA_Q2;
You are thinking in the "Linear" understanding of what I commented on as you replied to in your post, in another of "many" parallel dimensional universes, This "Roswell-Incident" perhaps never did occur, and I grant you that in that dimension's "Current" Time-Line of 2000, they are more than likely observing technology that is behind ours another 50 yrs. perhaps.........

I was referring to our current timeline. Other timelines do not matter as we are not able to observe them. As it goes today in our timeline, the UFO crash at Roswell was not needed. Indeed it was probably an advanced military machine, maybe from Russia or us. Nothing that was that advanced or from another planet, or future earthmen.

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If the theory does not fit reality then reality MUST be changed.

Does anyone find this subject as... potentially evil?

Maybe I'm the only one who has every played it, but there was once a game called Total Annihilation based on a huge galactic war that started when the government made "patterning", download of consciousness into a machine, mandatory, and half the population revolted on a massive scale.

I have to concur, in some ways, that such adaptions of the human race may have to occur in order for space exploration to thrive... Most of the universe is totally non-survivable to human beings. But I think very serious considerations have to be done before we begin patterning people.

I can have my brain scanned up and down, my neural patterns recorded and then laid down into the circuits of a human-based mind matrix, but what does that make me? Is it really possible to "transfer" consciousness, or does such a procedjure merely mimic the original being? And is there more to a person than just a consciousness... Can a SOUL ever be transfered into a machine? (Hate to bring up that sort of discussion again, but it should be noted.)

Given the choice, how many of you would undergo a patterning operation?

I agree with Chris.The Human race is not considered to be an inteligent life form,by other species,in the universe.We are probably looked upon as vile,primitive creatures.Other,real life forms,have proliforation of the species as a main objective.We seem to be bent on self destruction.We humans are killing ourselves and the planet we live on.And we can't even see it.Earth will become uninhabitable before we have the technology to be able to leave here and look for another planet to poison.Our planet is beyond repair.Therefore they are leaving us here,victims of our own vices.The last thing they want is for us to become smart enough to be able to try moving to thier neighborhood.We are being watched closely.Shareing of knowledge would be interfearing with normal evolution.Only humans do this.Teaching us anything would be like giving nuclear weapons to Saddam Hussian.We are closer to extinction with every tech. advancment.(No,my name is not Ted K.)Space-Time travel may be the only thing that can save us,or rather,prolong our stay.However long we hang on,our existance would be as insignificant as a speck of dust on an infinite timeline.Another scarry thought:insects will outlive the human race in the test of time.They allready have.

And what evidence is any of this based on? Scattered reports of abductions, some sighting of unexplainable phenomenon across the globe, and all the sudden we know the reasoning behind intergalactic species?

I think not. It is a good idea, but it is not fact, but pure specualation. Just thought I should point that out. I am not trying to take anything away from the idea, just making sure everyone understancds the distinction.

This is sort of off topic, but has anyone read Childhoods End? Its pretty goof, and kind of relates to all of this.

Some interesting views.

I’ll pose you a slightly different variation. It is inevitable that computing power will reach the power of the human brain within a few decades and then will continue onwards. If we do not transition into this technology then the AI machines will most certainly dominate us. How happy will we be as the second class citizens of the planet? We might think we can maintain control of the machines but we would be deluded – they will simply be able to out-think us – in the same way as we can out-think the apes. There will be no way to put the genie back in the bottle. We will have little choice but to accept these momentous changes. Biological changes are just not going to occur fast enough to keep pace.

Those that accept these technology changes will likely be atheistic – i.e. no belief in supernatural spirits or other entities. The issue of transferring a soul simply will not arise – unless someone can show evidence of such entities, and for the moment scientific studies indicate that a spirit is highly improbable.

As for sex and fluidic-based emotions: I have met people who live for sex and who would be devastated if they lost those abilities. I have also met those who have no problems with celibacy. It must be emphasized that sex is a primitive instinctive mechanism developed by evolution to ensure survival of the species. The purpose of life is survival and sex is merely the tool. When survival can be achieved without sex then sex will simply fade away and not be seen as a requirement. We will learn to adapt (re 7 of 9).

If the high points of your life are based on sex then you have my sympathy. I believe there are greater pleasures to be experienced, primarily creativity, which will be greatly enhanced by a significant increase in intelligence.

Our current electro-chemical lifeform is enormously inefficient and poorly developed; it was after all the result of a long random evolutionary process. We now have the chance to design new bodies and correct all the deficiencies of the human form. Robotic bodies will have significant advantages and far greater flexibility and options. While early versions may be initially clumsy it can be reliably assumed that significant refinements will quickly follow. Your sense of touch, initially, may be poor compared to human touch but wait a few years and I suspect that those senses will be amplified and enhanced way beyond crude human senses.

Have fun whatever
Cris




[This message has been edited by Cris (edited November 03, 2000).]

You make several strong points, Cris. First, let me remind you that the sensation humans associate with sex is little more that a set of chemical reactions in the brain, and if patterning operations do succeed, it should be fairly simple to reproduce such things electronically.

But let me state my point of view on patterning a little more... Is it really life? You say that humans will never survive our own war and pollution without new, mechanical bodies and synthesized, patterned brains. But if we do manage to pull off a "transition" for everyone, and we have our robot selves running about in the galaxy, what part of us is really out there? What am I if the sum of my cosciousness is my advanced computing power and expanded logic subroutines? Can a machine ever experience beauty, or joy, intruigue, curiosity, creativity? Can a machine laugh? All those things that lie in my cousciousness between instinct and logic, things that have no use to a machine, would all those be lost?
Would survival, as you define it, really be worth the abandonment of so many things?

It seems to me that humanity is going to die anyway. Either we suffocate from our own greenhouse gasses or we create mechanoid mimics of ourselves and pretend to live on.

Some might say that my morals are going to kill me in the future, but offered the choice between death and patterning, I might not take the latter. At any rate, if mankind is really so destructive, is there really any justification in allowing the species to live on? Perhaps minds as destructive as ours should not be allowed to control the universe, whether those minds be contained by walls of flesh or iron.

DataBob,

The brain scanning research requires not just the electrical neuron activity but all hormone and other chemical interactions. Everything that makes us human must be duplicated for the upload to be acceptable. It will not be acceptable for us to lose any emotional or intellectual activity.

You use the word ‘machine’ in a derogatory manner, I think born of exposure to science fiction and Hollywood perceptions. The human body and brain is also a machine but is carbon based and poorly constructed. Our transition will be to a more flexible, resilient, and advanced metal/silicon/plastic based structure.

I need to say that I didn’t make any pessimistic references to wars and pollution.

The objective of transhumanism is to be able enhance and improve the human condition. It will not be acceptable to lose anything, at least initially, we may at a later date find that some evolutionary instincts have no relevance to our new advanced format and we might decide to remove such redundant features. Much like the appendix serves no useful purpose to us as humans and is often a problem if it becomes infected.

Be more optimistic. The future looks like being very exciting. Will it all work out right? Yes it will. How do I know? I don’t know it’s a mystery. (Re Shakespeare in Love).

Have fun.

Cris (Eternal Optimist)

There are some interesting thoughts going on here.I've developed a pretty solid mathematical background during my humble existance.The people I work with,along with myself are firm belivers(my spelling is suffering)there is nothing that can't be described with numbers,done with numbers or communicated by numbers.Numbers are in everything from the shape of the doughnut you eat in the morning to the dust you inhale when your head hits the pillow.Getting back to the "No contact yet" thing,are there any thoughts out there why we haven't gotten an answer to any of the battery of codes we bombard our little spot in the galaxy with?Our spots too small?Signal too weak?Math is not the language of the universe?No one is listening?They don't want us to know they're listening?Are we too simple?Does "matter" even matter?

That last post on your view of patterning made ME optomistic.
I still do not know if mankind is going to destory this planet, but at any rate there is much hope that our condition will improve, and even if I don't think we deserve to live, it's certainly not up to me to decide. (We decide for ourselves, in everything we do.)

As for patterning, I really just think it needs to be debated heavilly before applying it is considered, and it should never, under any circumstances, be made mandatory.
And I do see the wisdom in it... We may reach a point when we need to go beyond the limitations of our slightly limited bodies and allow our minds to travel and explore the universe without them. In some ways, I look forward to that time.
But if even the slightest, most seemingly trivial function of the human brain is lost in trasfer, the "new organism" (More to your liking than "machine"?) ceases to be any more than an AI construct. Keep that in mind.

So in response to the topic, why haven't we been contacted? I'm not entirely sure, but I see a few possibilities.
Maybe, as many have tried to point out to me, our whole race is really primitive and no one even wants to meet us. Obviously, if we were contacted by an advanced society, we'd be very hungry to have a sample of their advanced technology. If I were an alien, (If... :) ) I would think that new races should think up their own technology, and in doing so learn how to use it responsibly. Like, imagine if we'd gone back in time and given people in the dark ages something like atomic energy, so they'ed have all the light they needed. Not too smart, is it? So maybe these aliens don't want to contact us because it would make us too jealous of the knowledge they don't want to give us.
On the other hand... Even though there must be millions, if not trillions of advanced civilizations out there somewhere, simply given the immense size of the known universe, life must still be pretty rare. There may be only ten or twenty other planets in this galaxy with life, for all we know. Maybe even less. And this is a HUGE galaxy.
If humans gained sufficient technology to explore the universe on a feasible scale (I.E. warp drive, wormholes, etc.) and started looking for other civilizations, it would still take a very very long time to find one, simply because of the sheer distance between every star and more so the sheer number of stars. We'd have to search nearly every one to be sure to find aliens, and the Milky Way galaxy had several hundred billion stars, last time I checked.
Maybe there are aliens looking for us right now. Heck, maybe they're already on their way.
And you may point out that we have all these radio waves and TV signals going out into the cosmos all the time... But I have doubts as to their power. Why can't I pick up the TV stations that are broadcasting on the other side of town? How is anyone supposed to pick up those same signals on the other side of the galaxy? And, who's to say that any alien races still use normal radio waves? They are very slow for long range communication, completely inadequate for interstellar transmitions, if you ask me.

But then again, who is to say that we HAVEN'T been contacted?

"But then again, who is to say that we HAVEN'T been contacted?......
Excellent point DataBob!, which is exactly the same point I attempted to apply in relation to the "Roswell" incident, yet FA_Q2 failed to recognize.
Who's to say a UFO did "Not" crash there in the fourties?

And if so, it would in "Fact" have been recovered by compartmentalized segments within our GVT & Military establishments, thus leading our normal chronological Time-Line to become altered in such a way that may not have otherwise occured!!

Moreover, FA_Q2 stated the following inaccuracy....."I was referring to our current timeline. Other timelines do not matter as we are not able to observe them."

What the hell are you saying? ...
ALL Time-Lines MATTER!!
and who's to say some of us here on earth are "Not" able to observe them?
Do you know this for a fact to disprove it?

So just because you are unable to observe a Mac-Truck about to swerve into your lane on the freeway, does that make it any less significant?

What affects one Time-Line, affects "All" Timelines! like looking through a row of mirrors into infinity, it is ALL Relative.



[This message has been edited by Time/02112 (edited November 05, 2000).]

Actually...
I heard something about that whole idea of multiple timelines, of different realitites (or "dimensions" as some scifi shows sometimes call them...) existing simultaneously...
Anyway, I heard somewhere that the human mind, at its most basic, microscopic level, operates on the existence of more than one reality. I will really have to look into this, but as I understand it, it's as if the cells in our brain are actually playing out all the immediate possibilities of the universe before they happen.
So, as Time just described, if I'm driving down the freeway and see a Mac Truck swerving maniacally, my brain cells have a "precognition" of the reality in which the truck falls over and crushes me and I die. Also, they see the universe in which I pull over and the truck instead kills the driver who tailgated me.
I think it is probable that there exist an infinite number of realities in which the random quantum events working within an atom can affect events in the whole, and if our brains really do work as this theory speculates, it mught indicate that by every decision I make, I am actually "steering" myself out of the realities I don't wish to experience. (I.E. being crushed under a truck.) That would be interesting.
Do I have this whole concept of brain function completely backwards? Does someone else know about this? Maybe someone can give a better explanation than me.

What do you think, time?

P.S. Oh... And If I can steer myself from reality to reality, what else can that ability do? Can I change reality, or jump into a timeline I cut off from much earlier? Like, if I see the truck, can I change reality so that I never even got into my car?
Who knows what abilities one might be able to develop with quantum-event-reactive-reality brain cells!
Other thoughts on this?

[This message has been edited by DataBob (edited November 05, 2000).]

Regarding time travel – here is an extract from a dictionary I picked up in the early years of the 22nd century.

Robo sapiens: n (English), from robot, a mechanism guided by automatic controls; and Latin, from Homo sapiens, mankind) 1. A hybrid species of human and robot with intelligence vastly superior to that of purely biological mankind; began to emerge in the twenty-first century. 2. The dominant species of the solar system of Earth. [Microsoft Universal Dictionary, 2099]

"MULTIVERSE"
...Look that up DataBob.
Ref:> T.O.E. Theory, Dr. Micio Kaku http://mkaku.org

Sorry, but I can't find any reference to the word Multiverse, either on the site you gave me or in any dictionary I could find... Pardon me if you find me guilty of not digging deep enough...
But I can kind of imagine its meaning... The idea of many or even infinite realities existing simultaneuosly with our own. Is that it?

Any other thoughts, alternate meanings, etc?

<img src="http://ubmcrew.8k.com/pics/USNCreature.jpg" width="120" height="170"></p>




[This message has been edited by Time/02112 (edited November 10, 2000).]