The Real Name of the Muslim Messiah

Pakman

11-07-03, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by AAF
:cool:
No way!
A lot of things cannot be found on the Internet, including the gender of P*S*, the blueprint of the atomic bomb, and the hideouts of Bin Laden.
Does that mean those things do not exist?
Abu Ba'aja is Mohammed of Arabia. I'm absolutely sure about this.
I've read it time and time again, for more than 20 years, in many Arabist books and ancient poems of Arabian poets of considerable reputation.
More importantly, all the available circumstantial evidence supports the supposition that "Mohammed" is an alias of the Moslem Prophet that got after, not before his Mission.
So if you really interested in investigating this subject matter further, get up and head for the library.
One more note, in English the name "Abu Ba'aja" may have different forms such as "Abu Baaja", "Abu Ba'ajah", "Abu Ba'ajat" or "Abu Ba'azha".

You are right. Blue prints cannot be found neither in a library nor the Internet. The same goes to bin Laden's hideout.

But if you say that books can be found on Abu Ba'aja, then they should be able to be found on the Internet. I did a search with the different forms of the name in Google.

No Abu Baaja (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Abu+Baaja%22&btnG=Google+Search)
No Abu Ba'ajah (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Abu+Ba%27ajah%22)
No Abu Ba'ajat (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Abu+Ba%27ajat%22)
No Abu Ba'azha (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Abu+Ba%27azha%22)

And since you say books can be found in Arabic, I did a search on only Arabic sites using google.

No Abu Ba'aja (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Abu+Ba%27aja%22&lr=lang_ar)
No Abu Baaja (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Abu+Baaja%22&lr=lang_ar)
No Abu Ba'ajah (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Abu+Ba%27ajah%22&lr=lang_ar)
No Abu Ba'ajat (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Abu+Ba%27ajat%22&btnG=Google+Search&lr=lang_ar)
No Abu Ba'azha (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Abu+Ba%27azha%22&lr=lang_ar)

Nope, I couldn't find anything. Could you then list the references then?

AAF

11-07-03, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by guthrie
Then the solution is simple, merely find such references and post them here, along with page numbers etc, so that the interested partys can look them up themselves.

If you help me obtain a 3-month grant from AAAS, I will do it!

For now, I can refer you to an Arabic book entitled "History of Atheism in Islam" by an Egyptian professor called "Abdul-rihman Munif".
I recite from it this ancient verse (run the Arabic Script to read):

[íæÚÏäÇ ÃÈæ ÈÚÌÉ ÈÃä ÓäÍíÇ ***æ ÊÕäÚ áäÇ ÈÅÓáÇãå ÃÌÓÇÏ ãä Ñãíã]

TRANSLATION:

{Abu Ba'aja promises us that we shall live; and with his Islam we will have bodies made for us from dead corpses}!

:D

Pakman

11-08-03, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by AAF
If you help me obtain a 3-month grant from AAAS, I will do it!

For now, I can refer you to an Arabic book entitled "History of Atheism in Islam" by an Egyptian professor called "Abdul-rihman Munif".
I recite from it this ancient verse (run the Arabic Script to read):

[íæÚÏäÇ ÃÈæ ÈÚÌÉ ÈÃä ÓäÍíÇ ***æ ÊÕäÚ áäÇ ÈÅÓáÇãå ÃÌÓÇÏ ãä Ñãíã]

TRANSLATION:

{Abu Ba'aja promises us that we shall live; and with his Islam we will have bodies made for us from dead corpses}!

:D

Hmm, not yet. ;)

No Abdul rihman Munif (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Abdul-rihman+Munif%22&btnG=Google+Search)

Also, might I ask you what does the American Association for the Advancement of Science have to do with Abu Ba'aja?

Medicine*Woman

11-08-03, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by AAF
Muslims and many non-Muslims wrongly believe
that the founder of Islam is always
called by the name " Mohammed".
They can't get any further from the truth.

The Muslim Messiah got this name only later
in his life and by his own followers.

"Mohammed" which is an Arabic word that means, literally, "Thanks-worthy",
"Most-thanked", or "Most-praised" is not a proper noun at all.
It had never been used as a name of person
before the Islamic era.

The word "Mohammed" appeared for the first time in
the Islamic Oath of Allegiance or "Shihadah" in the phrase:
"Thanks-worthy is the Messenger of Allah".
Eventually, it replaced the true name of the
"Messenger of Allah".

What was his real name?

----------
M*W: Forgive me, I don't speak Arabic. I am not a Muslim. I do believe in Allah, however. Allah is my God. I am not xian. Xianism is a lie. I believe in the One Spirit of God. This eliminates all xians. They are an abomination to God. They will all die. My allegiance resides with Allah, who is God. I am One with Allah. Why will defy me?

A massive historical research, in the 18th and the 19th
and the early 20th century, reached a surprising conclusion: Almost everything in the traditional story of "Mohammed" is a mythology, including this pretentious name.

The "Messenger of Allah" real name is "Abu Ba'aja",
literally "the Father of the Bulge", or "the Pot-belly".
In ancient times, it was considered nice, in Arabia, to be called "paunchy" as a sign of wealth and good health.

So the first name of "Mohammed" is "Abu Ba'aja".
And the true name of his father is "Abdu Illat", literally,
"the Slave of the Arabian goddess, Illat".

To M.W. & P.S.:
You need to run the Arabic Script first, before you can read
the full name of your Prophet in Arabic:

Here it is: [ÃÈæ ÈÚÌÉ Èä ÚÈÏ ÇááÇÊ ÇáåÇÔãí ÇáÞÑÔí]

:cool:

WildBlueYonder

11-09-03, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
Hey Guys:

Are you taking this AAF seriously !!!

Dont give much attention to this filthy copte, let him bark without bones.
to quote the dog:
Hey Guys:

Are you taking this Proud_DELIRIUM seriously !!!

he's an obvious racist, an obvious idiot

Crunchy Cat

11-09-03, 10:54 PM

You are right, but it is the typical Arabic hot-temper again.

Are you saying that Arabs have problems with their temper above
and beyond other cultures? Thats not good, especially because
I always see you describing how your religion is supposed to
reduce such behaviors.

AAF

11-10-03, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman

"M*W: Forgive me, I don't speak Arabic. I am not a Muslim. I do believe in Allah..........................".
:D
If you believe in Allah, then you should learn Arabic.
Because according to the "Prophet of Allah", Arabic is the mother tongue of Allah!
:eek:

AAF

11-10-03, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by Pakman
You are right. Blue prints cannot be found neither in a library nor the Internet. The same goes to bin Laden's hideout.
..........................................Nope, I couldn't find anything. Could you.......................................... ?

:cool:

Absolutely not!
Real things always can be found in the "Great Book of Nature", as Galileo used to say.

:)

AAF

11-10-03, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Pakman
Hmm, not yet. ;)

No Abdul rihman Munif (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Abdul-rihman+Munif%22&btnG=Google+Search)

Also, might I ask you what does the American Association for the Advancement of Science have to do with Abu Ba'aja?

:D
Keep searching!
Late Prof. Munif is a very famous educator, researcher, and translator in the Arab world.

As for your last remark, don't you think pinning down the true name of the founder of Islam is a giant step forward for science?

;)

WildBlueYonder

11-10-03, 06:22 PM

Boolean exclusive OR: either Christianity is true or islam is true, not both
http://www.delphibasics.co.uk/RTL.asp?Name=Xor

Islam has it backwards, what is a martyr, an angel, an apostle, how do you submit to God, how do you practice fasting or prayer?

Examples on martyrdom from Christianity: Stephen from Acts of the Apostles 7:59-60:
While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this against them.”
When he said this, he fell asleep.
Examples on martyrdom from islam: It’s a bomb! read the papers, use your browser, it’s
backwards

Examples on fasting from Jesus from Matthew 6: 16-18:
“When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their
faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their
reward in full. But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, so that
it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is
unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Examples on fasting from islam: during Ramadan, muslims fast during the day, then feast
at night, read the papers, use your browser, if you don’t believe me it’s backwards

Examples on prayer from Jesus from Matthew 6: 5-8:
“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing
in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth,
they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room,
close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who
sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep
babbling like pagans, for they think they will be head because of their many
words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you
ask him.
Examples on prayer from islam: as one of the 5 pillars of islam, prayer is out in the open
5 times a day so that everyone must do it, it’s backwards

Examples on being sent by God from Jesus Matthew 7: 15-16:
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly
they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick
grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles?
Examples on being sent by doG from islam: it’s backwards

Examples on lying angels from Galatians 1: 6-9:
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the
grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel – which is really no gospel
at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to
pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should
preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a
gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Examples of lying angels from islam: who is this Jibril, what is the quran, if not a false
gospel? it’s backwards

Examples from the Bible on prophethood from Deuteronomy 18:21-22:
You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been
spoken by the LORD?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD
does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken.
That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
Examples from islam on prophethood: want to marry your daughter-in-law, why as a
false prophet, you can make the quran say anything you want, just ask Ayesha
complain about Mohammad’s quran. it’s backwards
http://derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/women2.html

Examples on apostles from Jesus from Matthew 4: 18-19:
As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon
called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for
they were fishermen. “Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will make you fishers
of men.”
Examples on apostles from islam: Mohammad called by Jibril, a lying angel (known to average
people as a demon ), then confirmed by his wife (how did she know what’s true?),
it’s backwards

Examples of who Jesus is from Peter before the Sanhedrin in Acts of the Apostles
4:10-12:
Then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ
of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this
man stands before you healed. He is
“ ‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone’
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to
men by which we are saved.”
Examples of who Jesus is from islam: a muslim prophet, didn’t die on the cross for the
forgiveness of sins. Why different from Christianity? because it’s backwards

Examples from Jesus on believers from Matthew 7: 13-14:
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that
leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow
the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Examples from islam on believers: go to war against nonbelievers, force conversions by
the point of a sword, it’s backwards

Examples from Paul on temptation from 2 Corinthians 12: 7-9:
To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great
revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from satan, to
torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he
said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in
weakness.”
Examples from Mohammad on temptation: wants to marry a 6 year old kid? why as a
false prophet, you can make the quran say anything you want, do anything you
want. Why? Because it’s backwards

Examples of the crucifixion from Matthew 27: 35-40:
When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. And
sitting down, they kept watch over him there. Above his head they placed the
written charge against him: THIS IS JESUS, KING OF THE JEWS. Two robbers
were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. Those who passed
by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, “You who would
destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the
cross, if you are the Son of God!”
Examples of the crucifixion from islam: never happened, doG put someone else on the
cross, that looked like Jesus, read the quran it’s backwards

Examples from Paul on joy from Philippians 4: 4-5:
Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near.
Examples from islam on joy: you’ve already heard about the reaction to 9/11 at the
refugee camps, it’s backwards
http://www.ourenemies.org/9-11.htm

Examples of what Heaven is like from Jesus in Matthew 22: 29-30:
Jesus replied, “ You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.”
Examples of what heaven is like from islam: you’ve already heard about the 70 virgins,
right? Hmmm, virgins, now what do you suppose they are needed for? it’s backwards

Examples of the beast in Revelation 13: 18:
This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the
beast, for it is man’s number. His number is 666.
Examples of the beast in islam: the dragon is Jibril, the beast is Mohammad

Examples of the abomination that causes desolation from Matthew 24: 15:
“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’
spoken of through the prophet Daniel – let the reader understand
Examples of the abomination that causes desolation from islam: muslims take Jerusalem
in 638, build the Al-Aqsa Mosque over the Jewish Temple mount. it’s backwards

Examples on God’s name from the Bible Exodus 3: 14:
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM, This is what you are to say to the
Israelites, ‘I AM has sent me to you’ “
Examples on doG’s name from islam: Did God forget his name? who is this allah? Why
did doG change his name? Because it’s backwards

How many muslims will make it to heaven? None, only Christian muslims, those that have submitted to Christ.

What would Mohammad do? Why fight, rape, war, murder, read the quran & the Hadiths, if you don’t believe me, .

A typical muslim is backwards, they are milsum. So that’s what muslims practice, backwards Christianity!

What is heaven like? Who is God? If you’re not a Christian, you’ll never know the truth.

Pakman

11-10-03, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by AAF
:D
Keep searching!
Late Prof. Munif is a very famous educator, researcher, and translator in the Arab world.

As for your last remark, don't you think pinning down the true name of the founder of Islam is a giant step forward for science?

;)

AAAS Website
No Abdul Rihman Munif (http://search.aaas.org/cgi-bin/swish-bin/Swish-Search.cgi)

Arabic Google
No Abdul Rihman Munif (http://www.google.com/search?lr=lang_ar&cr=&q=%22Abdul+Rihman+Munif%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)

I have made my case. As you have noticied, we have gone nowhere. But please do notify me when you find a link to all that. Thank you and have a Happy Veterans Day.

Randolfo,
You too sir, have a Happy Veterans Day.

WildBlueYonder

11-10-03, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by Pakman

Randolfo,
You too sir, have a Happy Veterans Day. Thanks, you too. I'll be waving at the Vets marching by tomorrow, bought a cool B-17 & US flag t-shirt at the local 'Wings' restaurant, that I'll be wearing. I like WWII planes the best, the P-38 the most beautiful by far

WildBlueYonder

11-10-03, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by AAF
For now, I can refer you to an Arabic book entitled "History of Atheism in Islam" by an Egyptian professor called "Abdul-rihman Munif".
do you mean Abdur Rahman Badawi?

http://education.guardian.co.uk/obituary/story/0,12212,777001,00.html

WildBlueYonder

11-10-03, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by AAF
Muslims and many non-Muslims wrongly believe
that the founder of Islam is always
called by the name " Mohammed".
They can't get any further from the truth.

What was his real name?
you need better sources, if the name Mohammad never appeared prior to "The' Mohammad of the quran, that should be easy to prove, all the historical references should be able to verify it, unless it only became popular after islam appeared?

AAF

11-11-03, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by Randolfo
do you mean Abdur Rahman Badawi?

http://education.guardian.co.uk/obituary/story/0,12212,777001,00.html

:)

Exactly!
Thank you Randolfo.

Pakman

11-11-03, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by AAF
:)

Exactly!
Thank you Randolfo.

I can't seem to find the book anywhere to purchase from. I checked Barnes and Nobles and even on Ebay. You can find pretty much any book on Barnes and Nobles and just about anything on Ebay. I also checked my library, but they don't have it neither.

So I'm out of luck. Since you say a massive research was done on this, I'm sure you can find me another source. Good luck. ;)

Markx

11-11-03, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by Randolfo

Examples on God’s name from the Bible Exodus 3: 14:
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM, This is what you are to say to the
Israelites, ‘I AM has sent me to you’ “
Examples on doG’s name from islam: Did God forget his name? who is this allah? Why
did doG change his name? Because it’s backwards

How many muslims will make it to heaven? None, only Christian muslims, those that have submitted to Christ.

What would Mohammad do? Why fight, rape, war, murder, read the quran & the Hadiths, if you don’t believe me, .

A typical muslim is backwards, they are milsum. So that’s what muslims practice, backwards Christianity!

What is heaven like? Who is God? If you’re not a Christian, you’ll never know the truth.

There you go again. Do you need some more slapping? Do I need to repeat my self again? Why is that you Baptists or should I say Chrisitan terrorists hate all other religions?

Afraid of something?

So who wil go to HEAVEN according to Christian Terrorists i.e Souther Baptists?? Please tell. Please tell all the forum readers about it. :rolleyes:

Let me help you, According to christian Talibans only Southern Baptists will go to heaven or evangilical terrorists. Am I wrong???

Isn't it true that you can rape some one or kill some one but you won't go to hell since you believe that Christ Died for your Sin??

To prove that how stupid you are, one should read the BIBLE in Arabic, GOD is mentioned as ALLAH, nothing more or less. ha. Don't hate Allah so much, he is your God as well if you read BIBLE in arabic. But it never occured to you or did it? :D

Backward christianity.............yup. You got it all wrong.

Randolfo I really hope that you do some of your own research instead of copying and pasting. It was people like you, who made me leave christianity to atheism and from atheism to Islam. It is a perfect time for you to convert to Atheism, since christianity has failed you. :cool:

Markx

11-11-03, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by AAF
[
:( [/B]

AAF, what is the point of your post?? I don't understand. If it was meant as a mockery, then you could do better job then this, if it is meant as a informative post then you have failed yourself.

If I understand correctly, you are trying to say that Muhammed's name wasn't muhammed. Correct? What difference does it make? Muhammed was called Ahmed as well and was called Sadiq- ul Ameen too. What is the difference??

Secondly, your source. First your source so far doesn't exists , I am not saying that you are lying but even if it does, it holds no ground. Why believe a one unknown individual over million authentic sources? What would you believe world history written by Jessie Jackson or a world history written by 5000 shcolars from all over the world? Do you see my point?

One man against the world. Was he there? did he hear himself people called that name? Please give me a reason to believe and I will. However it doesn't make any difference to me but it would be nice to see what you have to back it all up.:cool:

AAF

11-12-03, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by Pakman
I can't seem to find the book anywhere to purchase from. I checked Barnes and Nobles and even on Ebay....................
Good luck. ;)
:)
I read that Egyptian book in early 1981.
So it is reasonable to assume some copies of it are still in the libraries of Cairo University. Also the Congress' Library in USA, may have some references to it.

AAF

11-12-03, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Markx
AAF, what is the point of your post?? I don't understand. If it was meant as a mockery, then you could do better job then this, if it is meant as a informative post then you have failed yourself.

If I understand correctly, you are trying to say that Muhammed's name wasn't muhammed. Correct? What difference does it make? Muhammed was called Ahmed as well and was called Sadiq- ul Ameen too. What is the difference??

Secondly, your source. First your source so far doesn't exists , I am not saying that you are lying but even if it does, it holds no ground. Why believe a one unknown individual over million authentic sources? What would you believe world history written by Jessie Jackson or a world history written by 5000 shcolars from all over the world? Do you see my point?

One man against the world. Was he there? did he hear himself people called that name? Please give me a reason to believe and I will. However it doesn't make any difference to me but it would be nice to see what you have to back it all up.:cool:

:D

["In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual."
Galileo Galilei ].

A quote from : {http://www.wbabin.net }

Markx

11-12-03, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by AAF
:D

["In questions of science the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual."
Galileo Galilei ].

A quote from : {http://www.wbabin.net }

Based on your quote the argument just died. :D

In questions of science

We are not dealing with science are we? :rolleyes:

AAF

11-13-03, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by Markx
Based on your quote the argument just died. :D

In questions of science

We are not dealing with science are we? :rolleyes:
=======================
:D
I don't believe you're bold enough to kick serious historical research out of science!
Do you?

Markx

11-13-03, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by AAF
=======================
:D
I don't believe you're bold enough to kick serious historical research out of science!
Do you?

First, answer my previous two questions.

Second, you are right. I am not bold enough to kick historical research out of science, where I don't see an argument. You are trying to hide your embarrasment that you have failed to answer all the members here about your sources and second you failed to tell me the relevance of this fabricated argument. :rolleyes:

I am expecting another irrelevant reply from you. So please hurry. ha
:D

WildBlueYonder

11-13-03, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by Markx
There you go again. Do you need some more slapping? Is violence all you know? Bad X, bad, bad!

Do I need to repeat my self again? as if you wouldn't?

Why is that you Baptists or should I say Chrisitan terrorists hate all other religions? all muslims that try to bring down Christianity are from a hate group, usually connected with Amaddya (sic) the 'AHMADIYYA MOVEMENT' http://alhafeez.org/rashid/

Afraid of something? Like you? You must be kidding!

Randolfo I really hope that you do some of your own research instead of copying and pasting. except for the Bible quotes, it's all my ideas & reasoning, were do you think I plagiarized it from? if you can find an other author that wrote similar things via a search engine or those teachers' plagiarized checking programs, why post your findings, so that I can buy the books of someone that thinks just like me! I hope that brings terror in your heart! (Hmmm, does that make me a terrorist?) Uhhh, 2 Randolfos loose on the world, are you trembling yet?

:cool: ;) :)

It was people like you, who made me leave christianity to atheism and from atheism to Islam. It is a perfect time for you to convert to Atheism, since christianity has failed you. Islam huh? So from the fire into the frying pan? You're a joke! at least in atheism, you had some logical backing for your beliefs, or rather lack thereof, but islam for logical or reasoning people, what a laugh! I could understand if you were born into it, since most of us are shaped by our upbringing, our society & culture. You are proof that the West lets people explore the bounds of personal belief, or lack thereof, by leaving Christianity. Now let's see if you can ever repeat the process in a muslim country? you'll be dogmeat salami

AAF

11-14-03, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by Markx
First, answer my previous two questions.

Second, you are right. I am not bold enough to kick historical research out of science, where I don't see an argument. You are trying to hide your embarrasment that you have failed to answer all the members here about your sources and second you failed to tell me the relevance of this fabricated argument. :rolleyes:

I am expecting another irrelevant reply from you. So please hurry. ha
:D
:)
'Hide my embarrasment'?
Are you mistaking me for "ProudSyrian"?
I've nothing of that sort.
Also why are you treating my post here as if it were a PH.D thesis in this chatroom! I don't have to reveal my sources. Why should I? I get no credit for that. Exchange of ideas is the whole purpose of such discussion, no more and no less.
One thing is certain. Abu Ba'aja is the true name of the Muslim Prophet. That is a historical fact.
History is on my side.

Pakman

11-14-03, 03:13 PM

With all due respect, you are mistaken AAF. There is no history book which agrees with what you say. Everything you have said is unsupportable. As for your sources, you do have to list them. This is the basis for decision in any forum.

I hate to say this, but your boat has sank. This is a thread I will further avoid. I urge this message to anyone else. It seems as if we are going in circles.

But please AAF, if you are willing too, I recommend the best course of action, which is to list your sources. List them and I will respond accordingly. Thank you and have a nice day.

WildBlueYonder

11-15-03, 02:09 AM

Originally posted by AAF

Also why are you treating my post here as if it were a PH.D thesis in this chatroom! I don't have to reveal my sources. Why should I? I get no credit for that. Exchange of ideas is the whole purpose of such discussion, no more and no less.
One thing is certain. Abu Ba'aja is the true name of the Muslim Prophet. That is a historical fact.
History is on my side.
Interesting idea, but to answer your question, here is a quote as to why you should post sources (with proper attribution):
Originally posted by Pakman
As for your sources, you do have to list them. This is the basis for decision in any forum.

But please AAF, if you are willing too, I recommend the best course of action, which is to list your sources. List them and I will respond accordingly. Thank you and have a nice day. To Pakman, Thanks , you have a good idea for anyone that is proposing such wild ideas or thoughts, to back them up with facts

AAF

11-15-03, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by Pakman
With all due respect, you are mistaken AAF. There is no history book which agrees with what you say. Everything you have said is unsupportable. As for your sources, you do have to list them. This is the basis for decision in any forum.

I hate to say this, but your boat has sank. This is a thread I will further avoid. I urge this message to anyone else. It seems as if we are going in circles.

But please AAF, if you are willing too, I recommend the best course of action, which is to list your sources. List them and I will respond accordingly. Thank you and have a nice day.
:cool:

Certainly not!
Reference listing is a requirement only for primary publications, i.e. publications that can be used for establishing originality and resolving priority disputes.
In any case, all what your rebuttal amounts to is this:
{The idea of pre-Islamic name of Mohammed is original. Therefore it is false}!
I say you're utterly wrong. The reason is simple.
Originality is a royal road to immortality and glory, not a sign of falsehood and disgrace.
I wish the above idea about Mohammed was original.
Because my analysis of it is robust and it can stand on its own.
However, the claim of originality, in this case, goes to someone else.
I have neither the time nor the desire to find out who the originator of this idea is.
I've already established, with the help of Randolfo, Badawi's book as a secondary reference.
This book is, particularly, important. Because it references most of the primary sources, namely the ancient poems of Arabian poets, relevant to this matter.
If you realize that Muslims, through the ages, have done everything in their power to erase the pre-Islamic name of their Messiah from the scrolls of history, you will appreciate how difficult the task of locating the primary sources is.
The process of uncovering the true name of Mohammed consists of four parts:
[1] Linguistic analysis of the word "Mohammed": Meaning, root, use, origin, etc.
[2] Context analysis of how it is used in the Quran and various Islamic rituals.
[3] Historical review of Islamic and pre-Islamic naming systems of people, in Arabia.
[4] Locating primary sources, mainly ancient anti-Mohammedan poems.
The first three parts, in my opinion, are the most important in clenching the argument and establishing the truth of this case. Because it is possible for Moslems to doubt the objectivity of the primary sources and claim they were anti-Mohammed propaganda. But they have no defense whatsoever against rigorous linguistic analysis and the complete difference between pre-Islamic and Islamic naming systems. The former is pagan in its origin. And the latter is simply an import from the Bible with some Islamic peculiarities.

AAF

11-19-03, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Randolfo
Interesting idea, but to answer your question, here is a quote as to why you should post sources (with proper attribution):
To Pakman, Thanks , you have a good idea for anyone that is proposing such wild ideas or thoughts, to back them up with facts
:D

These links may shed some light on this topic:
[2]
http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:q4gmp-K4Fu4J:notendur.centrum.is/~snorrigb/islam1.htm+The+Real+Name+of+the+Muslim+Messiah&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
[2]
http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:2gbDqon7kpQJ:radicalacademy.com/studentrefreligion3c1.htm+the+original+name+of+Moh ammed&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Markx

11-19-03, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by Randolfo
Is violence all you know? Bad X, bad, bad!

Scared now?? How come? didn't they teach you how to fight in Baptist churches? I mean they teach, hate, they teach lies, ignorance and read you mythical stories...etc.. lol.

all muslims that try to bring down Christianity are from a hate group, usually connected with Amaddya (sic) the 'AHMADIYYA MOVEMENT' http://alhafeez.org/rashid/

lol.. Oh my Jesus. You have found a website. Congrats.

! I hope that brings terror in your heart! (Hmmm, does that make me a terrorist?) Uhhh, 2 Randolfos loose on the world, are you trembling yet?

lol. :) what on earth have you been drinking.... same wine made out of water???

or rather lack thereof, but islam for logical or reasoning people, what a laugh! I could understand if you were born into it, since most of us are shaped by our upbringing, our society & culture. You are proof that the West lets people explore the bounds of personal belief, or lack thereof, by leaving Christianity. Now let's see if you can ever repeat the process in a muslim country? you'll be dogmeat salami
:p

ahh.. What would happen to you. I am just wondering.When Jesus will reject you, and paul will not be able to save you..... I guess all will be depend on Allah..lol

Watch out my christian Taliban friend.

Man, you are too much fun. Please forgive me for not replying to all of your ranting, I don't have energy to to educate you. Now let me help you by directing you to Islamic Center at Vermont st D town LA . You might learn something. I hope the darkness of ignorace will go away some day.

Markx

11-19-03, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by AAF
.

You didn't answer me. Please read my post again and see if you can answer this time. :p

AAF

11-20-03, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by Markx
You didn't answer me. Please read my post again and see if you can answer this time. :p
;)
What post?
Is it this one:

"AAF, what is the point of your post?? I don't understand. If it was meant as a mockery, then you could do better job then this, if it is meant as a informative post then you have failed yourself.

If I understand correctly, you are trying to say that Muhammed's name wasn't muhammed. Correct? What difference does it make? Muhammed was called Ahmed as well and was called Sadiq- ul Ameen too. What is the difference??

Secondly, your source. First your source so far doesn't exists , I am not saying that you are lying but even if it does, it holds no ground. Why believe a one unknown individual over million authentic sources? What would you believe world history written by Jessie Jackson or a world history written by 5000 shcolars from all over the world? Do you see my point?

One man against the world. Was he there? did he hear himself people called that name? Please give me a reason to believe and I will. However it doesn't make any difference to me but it would be nice to see what you have to back it all up"!?!
CORRECTION:
It's wrong to say: "Muhammed was called Ahmed".
Because Muhammed claimed only in his Quran that Allah named him 'Ahmed' in the Bible, and the Christians and the jews had deleted that name from their copies of the Bible, when they realized he is "UMMI" i.e gentile.
:D

Markx

11-20-03, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by AAF
;)
It's wrong to say: "Muhammed was called Ahmed".
Because Muhammed claimed only in his Quran that Allah named him 'Ahmed' in the Bible, and the Christians and the jews had deleted that name from their copies of the Bible, when they realized he is "UMMI" i.e gentile.
:D

well at least you tried. I am glad you got that part right. :p

AAF

11-21-03, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by Markx
well at least you tried. I am glad you got that part right. :p
:)
Good! So it is the post.
You wrote: "your source so far doesn't exists".
How many times I told you that the primary source about the original name of Mohammed---Abu Ba'aja---is the ancient Arabian poetry, and that Abdur Rahman Badawi's book [A history of Atheism in Islam] references all those relevant poems.
You, also, said: "Why believe a one unknown individual over million authentic sources? What would you believe world history written by Jessie Jackson or a world history written by 5000 shcolars from all over the world? Do you see my point"?
I'm surprised you said that. As I gathered from your previous posts you were a Christian, then heretic, then atheist, and finally a new convert to Islam! How on Earth you did all that with such timid attitude towards authorities of big numbers!
I would only say this to you: In the long run only the truth that does matter.
Finally you posted: "One man against the world. Was he there? did he hear himself people called that name? Please give me a reason to believe and I will. However it doesn't make any difference to me but it would be nice to see what you have to back it all up"!!!
Again I wonder how you feel about this:
You believe Islam is true. But the people of Europe, the people of North America, the people of Central America, the people of South America, the people of Australia, the people of China, Japan, and India, the people of most of Africa, not to mention the people of the Pacific and the Indian ocean, all believe Islam---your religion---is plainly false. Is that doesn't bother you? "Do you see my point"?
I hope you do.

:D

Pakman

11-22-03, 07:15 PM

AAF, I hope you know your entire post is just opinion. Your sources don't exist.

You didn't even know exactly about the book about "History of Atheism in Islam" until Randolfo posted a story to it. While researching into your post, I did find that book, but I didn't post anything about it. Why?

1. Because I could not find any other links to it.
2. And because you would just continue blabbling about it and so saying that's the book and so.

Your posts mean nothing. Squat. Zero. Nada. Zip. Nothing. I have tried to tolerate you, but now your ranting about this and that saying it's false and so is annoying me. Let me remind you that in a Religon forum, everyone here is to respect other people's religion whether or not we agree or disagree with it!

If you are going to participate, participate decently like everyone else does. I hate lecturing you, but since I'm not a mod, I can't close this topic, or else I would have long ago! Have a nice day.

Vienna

11-22-03, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by Pakman
If you are going to participate, participate decently like everyone else does. I hate lecturing you, but since I'm not a mod, I can't close this topic, or else I would have long ago! Have a nice day.
What! and have everyone agreeing with each other, what would be the point of having a forum then?

Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion, have a nice day.

Pakman

11-22-03, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by Vienna
What! and have everyone agreeing with each other, what would be the point of having a forum then?

Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion, have a nice day.

Not to the point saying my god is better than your god. I have the real god. Your religion is fake and false.

The other person does not think that. To him, his religion is real. There is a way of discussing religion.

Vienna

11-22-03, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by Pakman
Not to the point saying my god is better than your god. I have the real god. Your religion is fake and false.

The other person does not think that. To him, his religion is real. There is a way of discussing religion.
And why shouldn't the "other person" believe that he/she is following their true God.

Are you not following your true God???

If you can't handle forums ...well...have a nice day.

Markx

11-22-03, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by Pakman
Not to the point saying my god is better than your god. I have the real god. Your religion is fake and false.

The other person does not think that. To him, his religion is real. There is a way of discussing religion.

But this is not the way of dicussion of fundamentlist christians, same thing for extremist muslims. Vienna is kind a guy we deal with evey now and then in our local mosques. They come and yell and scream and ask the same kind of questions but they never like the answers. They are responsible for their own acts and they will carry their own burden, on the day of Judgement, when Eisa(Jesus) will simply deny the fact about Holy trinity and the Scarificed for sin concept, they will be very disapointed. Since Jesus never said Worship him, neither he said I am GOD, but yet they believe in that myth.

However he is entitled of his views, his extreme views. His views are like of taliban, you can call them Christian Talibans, remember how they fell, exactly that is how they will fall. Pakman, if you live in usa you must have come across some of them, you can always visit any southern baptist church or ask any of them about their views on Islam oron other sects of christianity they hate them, you will be astonish to see how they will respond. Drop dead ignorant. They believe what the church tells them or what the conservative radio and tv stations tell them. To them there is nothing out side the church and their spiritual leaders are the only truth. Sad but it is a reality. You will not see this kind of extremism in any other sect of christianty.

Vienna

11-23-03, 07:13 AM

Hello Marx

Originally posted by Markx
But this is not the way of dicussion of fundamentlist christians, same thing for extremist muslims. Vienna is kind a guy we deal with evey now and then in our local mosques.
Never have I or do I ever intend to enter a mosque.

They come and yell and scream and ask the same kind of questions but they never like the answers.
Now why would I want to yell and scream in a mosque?????

They are responsible for their own acts and they will carry their own burden, on the day of Judgement
And that applies to everyone on this planet.

when Eisa(Jesus) will simply deny the fact about Holy trinity and the Scarificed for sin concept, they will be very disapointed. Since Jesus never said Worship him, neither he said I am GOD, but yet they believe in that myth.
Explain why Jesus would "Simply deny the fact about Holy Trinity and the sacrificed for sin concept???

However he is entitled of his views, his extreme views. His views are like of taliban, you can call them Christian Talibans, remember how they fell, exactly that is how they will fall.

My views are not extreme, I have enough problems with my own beliefs without some violent arrogant people forcing their ugly ideas on me, and that makes the whole idea of faith repulsive. I would rather be atheist than a muslim.

They believe what the church tells them or what the conservative radio and tv stations tell them. To them there is nothing out side the church and their spiritual leaders are the only truth. Sad but it is a reality. You will not see this kind of extremism in any other sect of christianty.
Scuse me, I believe what I want to believe, I am a free person, and I don't go for any bullshite that is thrown at me, especially muslim bullshite. I certainly don't need Churches or any media to make my mind up for me. I have enough problems with the ideas of Jesus, but if a God does exist it is only through the Christian way. So please don't shove the repulsive idea of another way to God down my throat. It only makes the idea of faith ridiculous.

I am curious to know why you think Jesus would "Simply deny the fact about Holy Trinity and the sacrificed for sin concept???

Proud_Syrian

11-23-03, 07:19 AM

CAN JESUS BE GOD WHEN HE HIMSELF WORSHIPPED GOD ????

Let us look at Luke 5:16 "And he (Jesus) withdrew himself into the wilderness and prayed to his God." Here we see that Jesus had a God, a supreme God, who is higher than him and stronger than him. Jesus was God's servant and he prayed to God so God would strengthen him more and reinforce him with patience and desire to continue his mission in spreading the word of God Almighty.

Also, let us look at Matthew 26:39 "And going a little way forward, he (Jesus) fell upon his face, praying and saying 'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.' " Here in this verse we see two things: (1) Jesus bowed down on his face and prayed in submission to his GOD in obedience. (2) Jesus was begging his GOD to let the cup pass away from him. Jesus did not have the power to will it for himself and make the cup pass away from Jesus. GOD had to do it for Jesus !. How can Jesus be the Creator of this Universe, the all knowing, most powerful??!!

Also, let us look at Matthew 26:42 "Again, for the second time, he (Jesus) went off and prayed, saying: 'My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass away except I drink it, let your will take place.'" My comments on this verse are similar to the above one (Matthew 26:39), Jesus begged his GOD to will what Jesus wanted to happen. Jesus couldn't will it by himself.

Also, let us look at Matthew 26:44 "So leaving them, he (Jesus) went off and prayed for the third time, saying once more the same word." Here we see that Jesus for the third time begged his GOD to will what Jesus wished for in Matthew 26:39 above. How can Jesus be the Creator of this Universe if he (1) begs, and (2) lacks power?!

Pakman

11-23-03, 07:35 AM

Originally posted by Vienna
[B]Never have I or do I ever intend to enter a mosque.

Very well. If you had, you would have learned that the Quran does not say anything about the world being flat, as you think it says. You would also learn that men did not write the Quran, as you think it happened.

Explain why Jesus would "Simply deny the fact about Holy Trinity and the sacrificed for sin concept???

Because Jesus(pbuh) has never said that according to Muslims. The Bible has been changed by the hands of men to say that. God has no equal. He is One. We believe in the Oneness of God and Jesus(pbuh), not in 3 gods. Jesus will come on and say himself that it was indeed changed.

Look at it this way. I tell you a story and you tell that story to someone else. About 10 people down, the story could become something else. You would have added or removed something in teling it. And the other person would have done the same. This is how it was with Jesus(pbuh). That is why Mohammad(pbuh) was sent after Jesus to correct that.

The sin concept is wrong because everyone man is responsible for their own actions. The way Christanity works is that you can live a live of sins, but before you die, except Jesus as your savior and you go to heaven.

In Islam, it is not like that. Good deeds bring you good stuff and heaven. Bad deeds bring you bad stuff and hell.

Markx

11-23-03, 06:57 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vienna
Hello Marx

[b]Never have I or do I ever intend to enter a mosque.

Why not?? If I could enter, mosques, churches, gardwara's, manders to learn and to understand other's faith, why can't you do the same? I hope you are not afraid that what you learn is different then what you were taught.

Now why would I want to yell and scream in a mosque?????

You might, since other suthern baptists do that all the time.

Explain why Jesus would "Simply deny the fact about Holy Trinity and the sacrificed for sin concept???

Like I said, wait till you die and I will wait for my death. It will settle this dispute. Correct? If I am wrong I will go to hell and if you are......then you know what!!

My views are not extreme, I have enough problems with my own beliefs without some violent arrogant people forcing their ugly ideas on me, and that makes the whole idea of faith repulsive. I would rather be atheist than a muslim.

For the first time you atleast admit that you have issues. Again, can you show me where I shove my religion to your throat? Please do not fabricate things, there have been enough fabrication from your side. It is a good idea to be an atheist instead of being a christian. Atleast an Atheist can think out the box and make more sense then a christian fundo.

Scuse me, I believe what I want to believe, I am a free person, and I don't go for any bullshite that is thrown at me, especially muslim bullshite. I certainly don't need Churches or any media to make my mind up for me. I have enough problems with the ideas of Jesus, but if a God does exist it is only through the Christian way. So please don't shove the repulsive idea of another way to God down my throat. It only makes the idea of faith ridiculous.

Good to see that you admiting the problem with Jesus's ideas. It is a good start. But you know what you have done and what you do as a christian or as a evangilist or S baptist.

I am curious to know why you think Jesus would "Simply deny the fact about Holy Trinity and the sacrificed for sin concept???

Save your criousity for death. You don't care what I say any ways ...correct?? You don't want to listen anything but what you wishes to listen. Look friend, you know that you have extreme views about every one who doesn't agree with you and you know it well.

This forum has discussed the fabrication of holy trinity and original sin and Jesus's scarfice etc etc so many times that I don't think any one is even interested talking about it. But if you still want we can start a new thread.

:rolleyes:

Vienna

11-23-03, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by Markx
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vienna
[B]
Save your criousity for death. You don't care what I say any ways ...correct?? You don't want to listen anything but what you wishes to listen. Look friend, you know that you have extreme views about every one who doesn't agree with you and you know it well.
:rolleyes:
Thats a long way to say "I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER" :D

Markx

11-23-03, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by Vienna
Thats a long way to say "I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER" :D

Really? If I give you answer you will consider it mockery against your religion. I understand, you don't want any one to mock your religion but you can mock theirs...some fundamentlist christian way.

:rolleyes:

skywalker

11-23-03, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by Markx
Really? If I give you answer you will consider it mockery against your religion. I understand, you don't want any one to mock your religion but you can mock theirs...some fundamentlist christian way.

:rolleyes:

Do you mind if I mock the hell out of christianty?:D

I can act exactly like Vienna and I won't be very nice Vienna. haha

Vienna

11-24-03, 03:55 AM

Originally posted by Markx
I am curious to know why you think Jesus would "Simply deny the fact about Holy Trinity and the sacrificed for sin concept???

Save your criousity for death. You don't care what I say any ways ...correct?? You don't want to listen anything but what you wishes to listen. Look friend, you know that you have extreme views about every one who doesn't agree with you and you know it well.[/B]
Markx.

Don't dance around the question like a fairy, just answer it!

I don't believe you can.

Proud_Syrian

11-24-03, 10:50 AM

Vienna:

I found something very interesting about your CHRISTIAN HERO:

''Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Another popular one is this, from a speech in 1922:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

DID YOU GUESS WHO SAID THE ABOVE ??????????????

Vienna

11-24-03, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
Vienna:

I found something very interesting about your CHRISTIAN HERO:

''Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Another popular one is this, from a speech in 1922:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

DID YOU GUESS WHO SAID THE ABOVE ??????????????

Adolf Hitler

And by the way this is the last time I will tell you I AM NOT CHRISTIAN got it, deaf lugs.

" Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

There are many quotes where Hitler extolled Christianity and even compared himself to Jesus, but as we have seen, his view of Christianity was quite muddled. The problem lay with Hitler and not with the scriptures themselves, he was responsible for the decisions that he made and the actions that he undertook.

Standing alone, the quote appears to refer to Jesus and Christianity as Hitler's reason for defending himself against the Jew, but a closer examination shows otherwise. As was already stated, that is only the last sentence of Hitler's quote. The sentence begins with the word "hence" meaning "therefore" "from this cause" "for that reason." So Hitler's reason for believing that he is acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator by defending himself against the Jew comes before the word "hence". The entire quote is as follows:

"The Jewish doctrine of Marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of Nature and replaces the eternal privilege of power and strength by the mass of numbers and their dead weight. Thus it denies the value of personality in man, contests the significance of nationality and race, and thereby withdraws from humanity the premise of its existence and its culture. As a foundation of the universe, this doctrine would bring about the end of any order intellectually conceivable to man. And as, in this greatest of all recognizable organisms, the result of an application of such a law could only be chaos, on earth it could only be destruction for the inhabitants of this planet.

If, with the help of the Marxist creed, the Jew is victorious over the other peoples of the world, his crown will be the funeral wreath of humanity and this planet will, as it did thousands of year ago, move through the ether devoid of men.

Eternal Nature inexorably avenges the infringement of her commands.

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."7

Again, Hitler is basing this on politics, nation, and race. As we have seen in a previous Hitler quote, he believed that the Aryans must fight for the purity of their blood and maintain their superior race; they had a mission allotted to them by the Creator of the Universe. He felt that their superiority was a God-given right. The concept of Marxism, where the aspiration was for all people to belong to one equal class, robbed Hitler of the superiority that he thought the Aryan race deserved. The eternal privilege of power allotted to the Aryan by the Almighty Creator is taken away by the equality of the masses. The principle of equality was nonsense to Hitler, for he believed in the aristocratic principle of Nature that placed the Aryan race above all others. He believed that the concept of what he called "Jewish Marxism" denies the value of personality in man, contests the significance of nationality and race, and thereby withdraws from humanity the premise of its existence and culture and the result would be chaos and destruction for the inhabitants of this planet. He felt that the concept was a crime against God and nature and HENCE he believed that he was acting in the will of the Almighty Creator by defending himself against the Jew. It had nothing to do with Jesus or Christianity. The New Testament does not preach racial superiority, as a matter of fact, the scriptures exhort equality and humility and express that no one is superior to anyone else, and that is the very concept that Hitler strongly stood against.

"Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others." Philippians 2:3

"Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves." Romans 12:10

AAF

11-24-03, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by Pakman
AAF, I hope you know your entire post is just opinion. Your sources don't exist.

You didn't even know exactly about the book about "History of Atheism in Islam" until Randolfo posted a story to it. While researching into your post, I did find that book, but I didn't post anything about it. Why?

1. Because I could not find any other links to it.
2. And because you would just continue blabbling about it and so saying that's the book and so.

Your posts mean nothing. Squat. Zero. Nada. Zip. Nothing. I have tried to tolerate you, but now your ranting about this and that saying it's false and so is annoying me. Let me remind you that in a Religon forum, everyone here is to respect other people's religion whether or not we agree or disagree with it!

If you are going to participate, participate decently like everyone else does. I hate lecturing you, but since I'm not a mod, I can't close this topic, or else I would have long ago! Have a nice day.
:cool:
The mistake has been corrected.
It's official. The word is out. Abu Ba'aja is the Prophet.
Here is the reference:
The primary source about the original name of Mohammed---Abu Ba'aja---is the ancient Arabian poetry, and Abdur Rahman Badawi's book [A History of Atheism in Islam] references all those relevant poems.
That is final.
Now let me ask you a question!
What does, regarding this topic, constitute, in your opinion, a decisive evidence?
In other words, at what point you will throw your hands in the air and say: {Marx, ProudSyrian........That is it. I'm now convinced that Abu Ba'aja is the pre-Islamic name of Mohammed}?
What is the decisive evidence? What kind of proof will convince you? Please, give a clear and honest answer!

WildBlueYonder

11-24-03, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Vienna
And by the way this is the last time I will tell you I AM NOT CHRISTIAN got it, deaf lugs. Vienna, the problem with a lot of fundamentals (islam or otherwise), is that you (as their enemy) has to fit in a pre-conceived category. Thus as a Westerner, you are automatically a Christian, until you convert to islam, then you'll always be RIGHT!

There are many quotes where Hitler extolled Christianity and even compared himself to Jesus, but as we have seen, his view of Christianity was quite muddled. The problem lay with Hitler and not with the scriptures themselves, he was responsible for the decisions that he made and the actions that he undertook. [/B] Hitler was coocoo for cocoa puffs, he also blamed everybody else, but his people for their problems, hmmm, sounds like a muslim to me

If, with the help of the Marxist creed, the Jew is victorious over the other peoples of the world, his crown will be the funeral wreath of humanity and this planet will, as it did thousands of year ago, move through the ether devoid of men.

Eternal Nature inexorably avenges the infringement of her commands. hmmm, sounds like a naturalists to me, darn those greens!

The New Testament does not preach racial superiority, as a matter of fact, the scriptures exhort equality and humility and express that no one is superior to anyone else, and that is the very concept that Hitler strongly stood against.

"Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others." Philippians 2:3

"Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves." Romans 12:10 many in the West, both Christian & non- , have not, can not, nor will they live under those words.

it's too hard for human nature to bow down to others more humble than ourselves, as it would to our superiors (as to emperors, kings, etc.)because we'll get punished if we don't bow to the king, but those that turn the other cheek, usually get the poo knocked out of them, in this society as well as others

Proud_Syrian

11-24-03, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Vienna
Adolf Hitler

And by the way this is the last time I will tell you I AM NOT CHRISTIAN got it, deaf lugs.

Is it that easy to abandon your faith when you get cornered ???

One time you invite muslims to be christians, and now you are saying you are not christian any more !!!

Are you Ok vienna ? I am worried about your mental health ?

:confused:

WildBlueYonder

11-24-03, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by Markx
:p Scared now?? How come? Not me, why should I be? Why, are you planning violence?

didn't they teach you how to fight in Baptist churches? I’m not a Baptists, but I have been baptized. I didn’t know that Baptist churches had paramilitary training programs, hey! Have you turned them in to the FBI? Or are you just assuming again, just because your mosque does?

I mean they teach, hate, they teach lies, ignorance and read you mythical stories...etc.. lol

Stop talking about muslims again, you shouldn’t tell everybody about the background of your religion.

the 'AHMADIYYA MOVEMENT' http://alhafeez.org/rashid/

lol.. Oh my Jesus. You have found a website. Congrats.
Meaning?

lol. what on earth have you been drinking.... same wine made out of water???
I don’t drink, but you're drunk on idolatry.don't believe me? ask yourself, "why mohammad didn't convert to Judaism or Christianity? If he believed he was following in the footsteps of the prophets, why did he start a new religion? one that no one had heard of before? and don't tell me that Moses, David & Jesus were muslims, that is so un-historical, that it’s hysterical

ahh.. What would happen to you. I am just wondering.When Jesus will reject you,
If Jesus rejects me, it’s because of something else I do, like not ‘turning the other cheek’

and paul will not be able to save you..... Paul can’t save anyone anyway, same as Mohammad can't

I guess all will be depend on Allah..lol why would it depend on a moon-god? Silly pagan, allah can’t save either

Watch out my christian Taliban friend. You mean talib?
As this site explains:
http://www.terrorismanswers.com/afghanistan/taliban.html

“friend”, why thank you, it’s refreshing to know that people that oppose each other publicly, can still be friends

Man, you are too much fun. Please forgive me for not replying to all of your ranting, agh, & here I thought you were the one ranting, silly me!

I don't have energy to to educate you. In what? Reverse thinking? Thanks for sparing me

Now let me help you by directing you to Islamic Center at Vermont st D town LA . ahh, why would I want to go to L.A. or to that mosque in particular? Do they specialize in converting Christians into muslims?

You might learn something. I know too much already

I hope the darkness of ignorace will go away some day.
Me too

Vienna

11-24-03, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
Is it that easy to abandon your faith when you get cornered ???

One time you invite muslims to be christians, and now you are saying you are not christian any more !!!

Are you Ok vienna ? I am worried about your mental health ?

:confused:
You would be better off as a Christian, anything is better than being a muslim.

I hate Islam and all it stands for. It is racist, intolerant, sexist, undemocratic, opressive by principle and brutal and savage in practice.

All those countries that practice Islam as a political governing tool should be de-islamicified just like Germany was de-Nazified.

Medicine*Woman

11-24-03, 05:19 PM

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vienna

You would be better off as a Christian, anything is better than being a muslim.

I hate Islam and all it stands for. It is racist, intolerant, sexist, undemocratic, opressive by principle and brutal and savage in practice.

All those countries that practice Islam as a political governing tool should be de-islamicified just like Germany was de-Nazified.
----------
It is better to be Muslim anyday than to be a perverted freak like you. Thank Allah there is only one of you. I pity your children, and I pray they don't learn from your example.

Markx

11-24-03, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by AAF
:cool:
The mistake has been corrected.
It's official. The word is out. Abu Ba'aja is the Prophet.
Here is the reference:
The primary source about the original name of Mohammed---Abu Ba'aja---is the ancient Arabian poetry, and Abdur Rahman Badawi's book [A History of Atheism in Islam] references all those relevant poems.
!

Geez man, what a proof you got for the bilions of muslims and disregarded the 1500 years of history and that one poetry became a proof to deny the whole history. Thank you AAF, it was really some proof. I mean what have I been doing all my life??? I missed the darn poetry, I missed the most important piece of history and yet you proved the history of Islam by that poetry. :D

Now, let me ask you what difference does it make to me if and it is a bigest if the name was Mohammed or something else? lol.

Pakman

11-24-03, 08:29 PM

Wouldn't it just blow your mind if I said Vienna is AAF or AAF is Vienna's younger brother or sister?

Markx

11-24-03, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by Pakman
Wouldn't it just blow your mind if I said Vienna is AAF or AAF is Vienna's younger brother or sister?

hear hear.

AAF

11-25-03, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by Markx
Geez man, what a proof you got for the bilions of muslims and disregarded the 1500 years of history and that one poetry became a proof to deny the whole history. Thank you AAF, it was really some proof. I mean what have I been doing all my life??? I missed the darn poetry, I missed the most important piece of history and yet you proved the history of Islam by that poetry. :D

Now, let me ask you what difference does it make to me if and it is a bigest if the name was Mohammed or something else? lol.

:(

Your 'HolyQuran' is poetry as well. Don't you know that?
So it goes without saying, what is good for the gander is good for the goose.

In any case, as far as history is concerned poetry is a very reliable source. You should be embarassed of looking down on poetry. Shouldn't you?

Finally, you asked this question: "what difference does it make to me if and it is a bigest if the name was Mohammed or something else"? It makes big difference. First, it is a historical fact that must be known. Second, it means devout Muslims, like you, have been 'suckers' all the time. They don't even know the original name of their 'Beloved Prophet'! What a shame! What unmitigated ignorance!

:D

AAF

11-25-03, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by Pakman
Wouldn't it just blow your mind if I said Vienna is AAF or AAF is Vienna's younger brother or sister?

:D

I would love to have Vienna my big sister.
I don't mind at all being her 'little brother or sister'.
At least, I could borrow 'her AVERAGE CAR' sometimes.

But don't try by asking silly questions like these to avoid the serious questions I have asked you.

In particular, what kind of proof and decisive evidence will convince you that Abu Ba'aja is your Prophet?

:cool:

skywalker

11-25-03, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by AAF
:(

Your 'HolyQuran' is poetry as well. Don't you know that?
So it goes without saying, what is good for the gander is good for the goose.

In any case, as far as history is concerned poetry is a very reliable source. You should be embarassed of looking down on poetry. Shouldn't you?

Finally, you asked this question: "what difference does it make to me if and it is a bigest if the name was Mohammed or something else"? It makes big difference. First, it is a historical fact that must be known. Second, it means devout Muslims, like you, have been 'suckers' all the time. They don't even know the original name of their 'Beloved Prophet'! What a shame! What unmitigated ignorance!

:D

Awwww ...............is no one listening to you?. :). Re-writing history eh?

skywalker

11-25-03, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by AAF
:D
But don't try by asking silly questions like these to avoid the serious questions I have asked you.

:cool:

hmm.....it is really **serious** issue. We have a new historian. It is serious inded.

Proud_Syrian

11-25-03, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by Vienna
You would be better off as a Christian, anything is better than being a muslim.

I hate Islam and all it stands for. It is racist, intolerant, sexist, undemocratic, opressive by principle and brutal and savage in practice.

All those countries that practice Islam as a political governing tool should be de-islamicified just like Germany was de-Nazified.

You know there is famous Hadith(saying ) for the great prophet Muhammad(pbuh) which says:

'' Anyone who hear about Islam and Allah Almighty and does not believe will end up in hell''

now, after hearing about Islam for such a long time vienna, it is your choice......save yourself eternal hell where blood will boil in your head...

skip your jewish roots and embrace Islam, it is the only way out.

Markx

11-25-03, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by AAF
:(
Finally, you asked this question: "what difference does it make to me if and it is a bigest if the name was Mohammed or something else"? It makes big difference. First, it is a historical fact that must be known. Second, it means devout Muslims, like you, have been 'suckers' all the time. They don't even know the original name of their 'Beloved Prophet'! What a shame! What unmitigated ignorance!

:D

Please don't use the word 'FACT'. You do not know the meaning.

AAF; Friend I am still enjoying the entertainment you are providing, now let me end this discussion by saying the following,

If you take Ahemd deedat as an authority on christianity, I will belive in what you are saying. :rolleyes:

Apologies to Mr. Deedat for comparing him with Badwai.

AAF

11-26-03, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by skywalker
hmm.....it is really **serious** issue. We have a new historian. It is serious inded.

:)
Hmm............................................... .
Are you 'skywalker' or 'sleepwalker'?
Seriously......................................... ..

AAF

11-26-03, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by Markx
Please don't use the word 'FACT'. You do not know the meaning.

AAF; Friend I am still enjoying the entertainment you are providing, now let me end this discussion by saying the following,

If you take Ahemd deedat as an authority on christianity, I will belive in what you are saying. :rolleyes:

Apologies to Mr. Deedat for comparing him with Badwai.
:D
Sorry, you're wrong!
Dr. Badawi was a great professor & researcher as judged by his own peers.
And in any case, Badawi's accurate referencing of the primary sources on this particular topic is what is important here, not his conclusion which he didn't make big deal of it anyway.

Markx

11-26-03, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by AAF
:D
Sorry, you're wrong!
Dr. Badawi was a great professor & researcher as judged by his own peers.
And in any case, Badawi's accurate referencing of the primary sources on this particular topic is what is important here, not his conclusion which he didn't make big deal of it anyway.

:p Please man, get a life. So, you said YES to my question? You are taking Deedat as an Authority on Christianity? I thought so. Thank you.

AAF

11-27-03, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by Markx
:p Please man, get a life. So, you said YES to my question? You are taking Deedat as an Authority on Christianity? I thought so. Thank you.
:D
"Please man, get a life"!
Don't get carried away. I didn't say anything about 'Deedat'.
"Abu Ba'aja" is the topic here.
Tell me: How long it will take to get you convinced that 'ABU BA'AJA' is the 'PROPHET'?

WildBlueYonder

05-20-04, 11:51 PM

:D
"Abu Ba'aja" is the topic here.
Tell me: How long it will take to get you convinced that 'ABU BA'AJA' is the 'PROPHET'?

so did you find any proof?

AAF

08-20-07, 04:29 PM

:D

As the captain of that huge ship, it's my duty to make sure it won't sink into oblivion.
Thereupon, I've decided to tether to Abu Baja's!

I would like to make the following points with regard to the 'locked-out' thread:

[1] I was not notified or given any advance warning that the direction of the last exchange was against the rules of this board.

[2] The subject matter of that thread has, indeed, been exhausted or almost exhausted.

[3] To the contributors, I would say this. As disheartening as it, the locking out is actually a good thing. I have been informed of attempts at hacking the thread, in question, a number of times. And so, your contributions are now more secure and immune to that sort of corruption.

[4] Finally, my sincere apologies to TruthSeeker for the ill-fated attempt to bring him back to the discussion and for unwittingly staining his good name. And I apologize to the administrators of this forum for violating the rules, and to the contributors for letting them down. To the participant in the last exchange, I have to say this. I can't look across one thousand miles and be thoughtful of your conditions; but if you're really hurt by that small and careless remark, then I must regret it and apologize for it; no hard feeling…

:)

AAF

09-01-07, 12:29 PM

:)

There can be no doubt that 'Abu Ba'ajah' is the true name of the Muslim Prophet.
The historical evidence for it is very good.

It's imperative in this regard, however, to clarify the use of the 'Abu-Naming' System of persons in the Arabic language. In formal Arabic, the words (Abu, Aba, & Abi) mean 'father, dad, daddy, pa, & papa'.

Historically, there are four types of this naming system:

[1] The Classical 'Abu-Naming' System:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~bvon/images/map1.gif
In the pre-Islamic period, the word 'Abu' is always used as a prefix for forming proper nouns. For example, the name of the first Caliph is 'Abu Bakr':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr
This is a real name. In other words, this Caliph had no son called 'Bakr'. 'Abu Bakr' was just a name given to him on his first birthday. The same applies to the Muslim Prophet. He had no daughter called 'Ba'ajah'. 'Abu Ba'ajah' was just a name given to him on his first birthday as well.

[2] The Asian 'Abu-Naming' System:

http://www.yale.edu/ceo/Projects/swap.html
In the Arabic speaking countries east of the Suez Canal, i.e. (the Gulf States, Yemen, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Gaza, and the West Bank), the 'Abu-Naming' System is used today to generate nicknames of persons in a pre-defined manner. Suppose for instance that someone is called 'Abraham'. As soon as this 'Abraham' comes of age, his friends start calling him 'Abu Isaac' and 'Abu Ishmael'. Why is that? It's because, according to the Bible, the old Abraham had two sons called 'Isaac & Ishmael' respectively.

[3] The Egyptian-Sudanese 'Abu-Naming' System:

http://www.atlapedia.com/online/maps/political/Nth_Africa_E.htm
In Egypt and Sudan, the 'Abu-Naming' System is used arbitrarily to refer to an actual father by the name of his first-born son or daughter whatever that name happened to be. And mainly wives in referring to their husbands use the 'Abu-Naming' System.

[4] The North-African 'Abu-Naming' System:

http://www.mytravelguide.com/travel-tools/maps/North-Africa-map.php
In the North-African countries, i.e. (Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, the Western Sahara, & Mauritania), the 'Abu-Naming' System is used differently. Here, the word 'Abu' means 'son of ' instead of 'father of'. Accordingly, the 'Abu-Naming' System is used, in these countries, to refer to sons by the names of their fathers.

These differences in the use of the 'Abu-Naming' System must be taken into account in any historical research to pin point the actual name of the Muslim Messiah.

The Muslim Prophet got the name 'Abu Ba'ajah' in the Classical Period. And hence, when ancient poets called him 'Abu Ba'ajah', those poets were referring to a real name and not just a nickname of the contemporary types.

*** *** ***

Dear Muslims;

You have to realize that your Prophet couldn't be the 'Messenger of Allah', because first and foremost there is absolutely no 'Allah' anywhere inside or outside the vast Universe:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=22326

;)

Norsefire

09-01-07, 04:31 PM

AAF, you are not Muslim, therefore anything you say about Islam has not much credit with me.

cosmictraveler

09-01-07, 05:25 PM

AAF, you are not Muslim, therefore anything you say about Islam has not much credit with me.

Does that also mean that anyone that isn't a Muslim has no credit with you either?

cosmictraveler

09-01-07, 06:41 PM

AAF, you are not Muslim, therefore anything you say about Islam has not much credit with me.

Well, can't you answer a simple question?:shrug:

Norsefire

09-01-07, 07:04 PM

No, but if they go and think they know everything, then yeah, I just see a total dipshit

But if they truly think about it and ask and think and discuss, that is different

cosmictraveler

09-02-07, 07:39 AM

No, but if they go and think they know everything, then yeah, I just see a total dipshit

But if they truly think about it and ask and think and discuss, that is different

So the only way people, other than Muslims, can have a discussion is if they know what a Muslim is? It would seem, as in my case, I am not educated as to just wahat a Muslim is and I would take this opportunity to let you explain what Muslims are exactly so that I can discuss with you things that you will credit me for.

(Q)

09-02-07, 09:57 AM

AAF, you are not Muslim, therefore anything you say about Islam has not much credit with me.

Interesting notion, one which delves deeply into hatred and bigotry.

In other words, what you're saying is that one could learn everything there is to know about Islam, yet not be a believer of Islam (Muslim), and you wouldn't accept anything they had to say about it? Yet, you'd accept something from a believer who actually knew very little about Islam?

:bugeye:

Norsefire

09-02-07, 10:07 AM

What I am saying is simple. Before you speak, know what you're talking about.

(Q)

09-02-07, 10:16 AM

Are you saying you don't understand a simple question, are refusing to answer or you simply are unable to formulate one?

Heres' how it works; you make unsubstantiated claims, we ask questions and you answer them. By not answering, you become a preacher and that isn't tolerated here.

Zakariya04

09-02-07, 10:24 AM

No, but if they go and think they know everything, then yeah, I just see a total dipshit

But if they truly think about it and ask and think and discuss, that is different

Hey

Why did norsefire get an infraction for this comment.
?
whats the issue???

~~~~~~~~Zak

AAF, you are not Muslim, therefore anything you say about Islam has not much credit with me.
Hi Norsefire

I hope all is good with you
How do you mean Norsefire?

do you mean that a non muslim can not speakj about isalm or be knowledgeable about Islam?

Why do you say that??? If the above is the case i completely disagree with you.

~~~~~~~~~
Takeit ez
zak

:)

There can be no doubt that 'Abu Ba'ajah' is the true name of the Muslim Prophet.
The historical evidence for it is very good.

;)

Hell AAT

i hope you are well

I think you are forgetting something Muslims dont think the Prophet Muhammed is the Messiah either??

Over to you Norsefire

~~~~~~~~~~
take it ez
zak

Norsefire

09-02-07, 10:37 AM

Zakariya04

09-02-07, 10:45 AM

Dear whoever

thank you for merging my posts

Norsefire

Thanks for clairfying.

did i have a question?

cant remember

~~~~~~~~~
cheers
Zak

Norsefire

09-02-07, 10:47 AM

No I was referring to (Q) who was referring to me and my refusal to answer a question. Please, what is the question?

(Q)

09-02-07, 10:59 AM

Because SkinWalker is a horrible mod, of course, I got 3 infractions! *gets edited*

Anyway, a non-Muslim can defintely be knowledgeable and speak and I would respect their opinions. BUT, they cannot simply play a game of "my religion is better" or "christianity is perfect", because christianity is far more violent than islam.

(Q), what's the question?

You answered it. Perhaps the more knowledgeable is right when he says another religion is better or is perfect or is less violent. If you feel your religion is not what he claims, find evidence to the contrary and present it.

Norsefire

09-02-07, 11:10 AM

Well, since the topic is religion, the simple evidence I need is the Koran.

(Q)

09-02-07, 11:15 AM

Well, since the topic is religion, the simple evidence I need is the Koran.

A manual on how to do something is not evidence to the actions committed. You must demonstrate the actions of Muslims to demonstrate your argument.

Norsefire

09-02-07, 11:24 AM

A manual on how to do something is not evidence to the actions committed. You must demonstrate the actions of Muslims to demonstrate your argument.

Isn't the question whether or not Muhummad's name was Muhummad?

(Q)

09-02-07, 11:41 AM

I was merely following your off topic post.

AAF

09-09-07, 01:02 PM

AAF, you are not Muslim, therefore anything you say about Islam has not much credit with me.
:)

Hello Norsefire;

No credit for outsiders; believers of every religion, always, say that to each other.

As someone who believes strongly in the correctness of 'Abu Ba'ajah', therefore, I should give no credit for your above statement! An eye for an eye; and a tooth for a tooth; and the one, who starts it, is the aggressor; right?

Now, let's look closely at your statement!

Concerning a specific belief system (e.g. Islam), whom we should trust more, the insiders or the outsiders? All things being equal, the outsiders are closer to the truth and more objective and trustworthy than the insiders are, for the following reasons:

{1} More often than not, the insiders are blinded by their faith in the belief system in question.

{2} More often than not, the insiders are accustomed to discussing only trivial and non-crucial matters of their belief system.

{3} More often than not, the insiders are unable to see the true foundations of their belief system.

{4} More often than not, the insiders have partial or complete amnesia with regard to the historical situation prior to the installment of their belief system.

{5} More often than not, the insiders have distorted and unrealistic views about the history of their belief system.

{6} More often than not, the insiders have very mythological and false images of the founders of their belief system.

{7} And finally, more often than not, the insiders hide the unpleasant aspects of their belief system from themselves, from their children, and from outsiders.

Therefore, it's in your best interest to give all the credit to my research on the real name of the Muslim Messiah and to pay no heed at all to the confused and misleading mythological stories of your imams about his true name.

*** *** ***

Dear Muslims;

You have to understand that there is absolutely no 'Allah':
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=22326

*** *** ***

:cool: