http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/printer/ap.asp?category=1103&slug=Attacks%20Britain%20Text

Well, there's not much to debate at this point. Submitted for review, a link to the text of the 70-point summary of evidence against Osama bin Laden, released Thursday, 10/4, by the British government.

So now I have something to read through over a cigarette this morning.

So as the proof builds, throw links into this topic.

But at this point I have no issue to present for debate, so call it FYI ....

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Interesting. Whether his finger was on the 911 trigger or not, he's an asshole and should die. He's ugly, too. Do we need any more reason to hunt him down like a dog?

Well Bowser, I think you say it very well, don't you?
Haha.
You always make me laugh.
How you do that, you 'nutcase'?
:p :p
Tiassa, I read it for as long as I fell not asleep, sorry.
But I will try again.
I promise.
Looks nice, what Bin Laden did wrong...
Well, that will be a very long list.
No it is about evidence against Bin Laden.
Oh, all one and the same.
He is a terrorist.
So he has to be an asshole!!!
;)

More like circumstantial evidence that would have no credence in any court of law ... at least in this country.

That is the part to laugh about.
:)
There is no evidence...
Yet.
Maybe never...
;)
What then?
Shall America admit that they do not know for sure that it was Bin Laden?
No, America with Mr. bush up front will not admit they are wrong...
Never!!!
:confused:

Chagur

I agree that it looks circumstantial, but it's a mere summary. It will be interesting as the actual evidence itself becomes more public to see how it all fits together. I admit that's the primary reason I noted that I had no issue to present aside from making a place to start compiling what we're told is the proof.

Of whether or not it will stand ... I'm compelled to note that in this country you can now be convicted of murder without a body. Truly, proof that a murder occurred should be necessary. (I'm referring to a man in Oregon convicted of murdering his wife for insurance money; her body never was located, ergo there is no "proof" that she's actually dead. This, of course, is a complication when the issue is six-thousand people unaccounted for after a jet airliner destroys a building. But it's an interesting note at least, I hope.)

Banshee

Don't worry about falling asleep; you'll get all the sleep you need when the actual evidence is made public and we all get to spend hours combing the pdf's to see what we've got. To be honest, I've only given it a cursory glance over a half a cigarette, so I need to read it more closely myself ....

Bowser

* He's ugly, too. Man, do you know how many American political figures should be on the hunt-down-and-punish list? Sure, there's Pat Robertson, but the main body of Americans probably wouldn't give a rip about it if the Pakistanis negotiated the surrender of the man who leads the 700-Club cell.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

<i>"Man, do you know how many American political figures should be on the hunt-down-and-punish list?"</i>

Well see, if the terrorist hadn't made it personal by taking down innocent civilians...

Could it be that this is a grand scheme to rid the world of ugly muslim men, those same desperadoes who hide behind shrouds and, because they are too damn scruffy to get a real date, enslave their women ?

I'm on to something here. Work with me.

I think I've stumbled onto a peaceful solution. Let our military start droping into Afghanistan cases of Old Spice Deodorant Sticks--long lasting and original scent, of course. It's personal hygene which makes them so nasty.

Bowser, you are terrible.
Don't make me laugh all the time...
;)
You better be careful with what you say about Moslims, you never know.
I don't think it is quite safe to talk about them this way.
You better be careful.
:p :p :p

Yes, I'm being very bad. I shouldn't generalize. It isn't fair. I just felt a need to lighten up my mood. My apologies to all ugly muslim men and stinky Afghans.

Well, I guess the Moslims can see it is not quite what you meant.
Lets stick to that.
Then it is always ok.
You did nothing wrong.
You just said what you thought.
It is a free country not?
So be free...
And tell them what you have to say.
;)

Mm-hmm... I'm bored... I wish they would start shooting... If I was young and single, having no responsibilities here, I would be there now. Restless...

Dear Bowser, did you read another reply from me some where else???
Then I will forgive you this.
If not, how can you say so, idiot.
Really, don't say that, they will shoot.
Oh, on the tv, there is been shot at an American plane.
Nice, now you have it....
Afghanistan has begun shooting.
Silly people, what is it good for?
More death and dectruction.
You stil like it Bowser???
It is true, look at your tv....
Afghanistan shot a spy-plane from USA.
No harm done, there wasn't even a pilot in it.
Now I wonder.
Why do they shoot at a plane without a pilot.
Maybe it was an exercise.
To look if they could shoot straight.
Silly people...
;)

They have started shooting...

Yes, they started bombing Afghanistan.
Are you happy now?
I hate this, I understand it, but I hate it.
I was afraid of that.
Now it escalates soon, I am afraid.
I am sorry for all the innocent people who are hit and died again for the sake of politicians.

I'm on the edge of my seat. I will be happy when the people of Afghanistan are free of Taliban rule, when Osama is capture or killed, when we move on to the next target country.

I know you are. Most Americans are.
I hope the Taliban are captured and punished for all the wrong things they do....
I really hope the right people are going to pay now.
And not always the innocent.
Talk to you later.

And they may get Osama Bin Laden, to kill him if you want. He is a dispicable man, or how you call it in english...

Terrorists are Terrorist

At this point what was declared, was the war on terrorist and the countries that harbor them.

So, evidence is really not needed. It really doesn't matter who did it. This is the loop hole America needed to go after Bin Laden.

A lot of people will die. Unfortunate, yes but sometimes you have to stand by your convictions. This is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. What are we going to do if Bin Laden sympathizers in the surrounding countries declare holy war? These is not a war on Islam. But these people live in a sheltered world. Where they are only shown what the government wants them to see. It wouldn't take much to push them over the edge and this whole region could go to war. With us with their own government with each other. If Bush is going to stand by his statements this is going to last a long time.

Also from what I understood, this is only the beginning. Will Ireland be next, what about the U.S.? Oh Yes. These hate groups are no better then the terrorists over seas, just low key.

<i>"He is a dispicable man, or how you call it in english..."</i>

Uhm...<i>an asshole.</i>

Patman,

We are the abertures of change. That change for those people may prove to be bad; but, then again, it may prove to be good. It's might be that the parts are being placed back in the box and we are now shaking up the pieces.

Patman.
What do you mean now?
I really don't understand.
I don't symphatise with wath kind of terrorists ever. I hate wars and killings.
You think I am not aware of what is happening in Ireland all the time?
Well, guess again, that is terrible, what happens there...
For years now.
And why?
Because the protestants hate the catholics, who worship the same god, but only have different rules to behave.
Same bible, same god and jezus.
Same heaven and hell, crazy people.
:mad:
Pride...In The Name Of Love...
What pride?
That you died for the same god as the other 'side'?
When children go to school, they throw stones at them.
How brave...
The parents could have gone another way, they didn't.
Who are the victims here?
Exactly, the children, as always.
:confused:
I hate war in every way...
I don't want this to escalate so far, there is no way back...
What about invisible attacks?
Something in the drink water or so.
This morning I heard there was a disease in Florida, from which they think it can be bacterial and brought to there by post.
Then there comes the end, sooner then you think.
That is the most low and cowardish deed some one can think of.
Such people are insane, deranged.
That is scary, because you never know when it hits you.
And what hits you...
:rolleyes:

Banshee,

<i>"That is scary, because you never know when it hits you.
And what hits you..."</i>

I think you might be freakin' out. Get a grip. These guys are low-tech and stab at targets of opportunity. Osama and his money are the only threat which should concern you. He has the ability to buy the technology. He has the will to use it. He has the influence to use others. If we can, at the very least, keep him on the run, he will be preoccupied. And while he runs, we will dig out his fellows and realize the defeat of his plans which may or may not be in motion.

Even with his ability to strike out at civilians, his threat is minimal. People should relax and enjoy the entertainment which the hunt for Osama offers.

As for the War on Terrorism, it is a police action on a multi-national scale.

If someone in your home country was causing harm to the citizenry, would not the authorities there search for and attempt to seize the criminal responsible? If someone was to aid that criminal and help him avoid capture, would not the authorities also search for and hold responsible his accomplices? Isn't this war on terrorism exactly that, an attempt to seize criminals and their cohorts?

<i>"I hate war in every way..."</i>

I have been feeling the beat of war drums since the fall of the WTC. It is a male disposition to desire war after injury has been received. I don't know why but we are often possessed with the passion to strike back at our enemies and make war when attacted. Also, I don't see this conflict evolving into WWIII, so it is not a threat to those things which I hold important. I think, too, that this war will bring needed change to Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Packistan, an many other countries involved.

Bowser, my country is involved already.
Our government has send militairy groups and equipment to 'your' waiting American fleet of ships and the rest of the militairy 'garbage'.

The flat in which I live have a lot of Moslim people living in it too.
Every evening there are fightings, right under my nose.
Moslims against not-Moslims.
Man, I am so sick of it...

And I am not freaking out...
It is scary.
I don't want to leave my house any more in the evening.
What do I have to do with this all?
Tell me.
:confused:
I am not a terrorist, nor have I done something to any Moslim, so let me live in peace.
I didn't attack the WTC either.
I am non-violent.
I am pacifist.
So are a lot of people...
And Afghanistan is closer to my country then to yours...
You know, this is a very little country.
One missile...gone country, bye, bye.
I have a child.
That is what I am so afraid for.
He is only fourteen.

Sorry, I forgot.
I know a lot of children were killed in the attacks at the WTC also.
So don't tell me things I already know.
I think it is my good right to say that I do not want my child hurt or worse, even before he starts living his life in his own free way.
In his own free country.
Yes, I know, that was wanted for all dead children too.
So that gives us the right to take other childrens lives?
Even innocent, like the children who died that useless death in the attacks at WTC.
We are no less then the killers themselves then.
Take Bin Laden and be careful, for this is escalating quickly...
:mad:

Call the police and tell them you are being terrorized by radical Muslims.

Really though, Banshee, you can't wish a problem to go away. Sorry.

Wish to go away???
You understand wrong.
I am not a fool Bowser, sorry, but I do know very well what is going on.
Wish things go away, yeah, yeah.
Like you have all the answers.
So tell me, American, what do you want?

You really think I am such a fool?
Then I am sorry to disappoint you.
I only tell what is happening here, on the other side of the Ocean.
What happens in countries like ours.
It is not only in this street, where they fight, it is everywhere.
You can talk easy don't you?
Stupid fools here are fighting one another for the wrong reasons.
It is useless to fight here, let them go to Afghanistan to fight, all of them, people from Netherlands as well. By the way, I told some of them to do so and then I was the enemy too, you see, useless.
You understand me better now?
I guess not.
It is really great to live in such agrisive vibes all the time, really great.

You see, you can say something about it, it doesn't help.
I don't understand why they are yelling and screaming at eachother day and night, and fight day and night.
Like the war already started.
And then, what the hell do you know?
You are safe there not?
Be happy and relax.

;)

Really though, Banshee, you can't wish a problem to go away. I feel compelled to point out that a "War on Terrorism" isn't going to make the problem go away, either. The only satisfaction we'll actually get from this, aside from vengeance and a chance to blow some stuff up, is that it takes 400 suicidal idiots to kill as many people as 19 suicidal idiots did. But if it's 400 guys with fertilizer bombs ... well, 19 hijackers and how many support people?

Either way, the Muslim terrorists will be problematic enough. What about when we get around to British and Irish terrorists, and the terrorists trained into death squads by American military personnel?

I just don't see the problem going away this way, either. Maybe the al Qaeda facet of the problem, but it will look like the drug war: knock out one cartel, another one comes up.

Fundamental ideological change is the only thing that will short-circuit this problem. The difficulty there is that we're Americans, and we don't like to change our fundamental ideology. We like to change other people's fundamental ideologies.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Tiassa,

At this time, it looks like we are bombing and searching for the largest threat. I agree that we cannot detsroy terrorism, but I believe we can hold it down, cutting off its heads, arms, and legs. Also, unlike the drug cartels, these people don't have American support. Why did we lose the war on drugs?

Yes, tell me Bowser.
Why did you loose the war on drugs?

Just an aside re.As for the War on Terrorism, it is a police action on a multi-national scale. Interpole, the international police information coordinator, only recently ('87) has begun to address terrorism.

http://www.interpol.int/Default.asp

For those interested in the Arab world's take on a number of issues, you might want to check out:

http://www.ain-al-yaqeen.com/

Chagur

Americans (drug users) are funding the cartels, Banshee. We are our own enemy in that war. Drugs have large consumer support here. I don't see much demand for Islamic terrorism, however.

Banshee
What are your Muslim neighbors fighting about? That the U.S. is right or wrong for doing this? Obviously they left their Muslim country and countrymen behind seeking greener pastures. They're not there demanding change of their government or the polices so who are they to argue. I understand the protests in the surrounding countries, who knows what they're being told be their governments or by the taliban refugees?

But this bullshit in the middle east has got to end somewhere. Can we do it? Only time will tell.

The collective goal of Bin Laden and Hussan is to unite the Muslim world. The problem they both want to rule this new super-Muslim nation. This will never happen, because we will not and can not let it happen! These people can't even get along with themselves. The constant fighting is mind numbing. If we could some how put an end to it I'm all for it. I think it's safe to say that for the most part your pretty safe in the Netherlands, aside from your neighbors that argue about the country they abandoned. Sorry for the civil unrest but it could be worse. If the Muslims ever did unite you can bet they wouldn't stop there. they would want Asia, then Africa, then Europe etc... You get the point. Sometimes there is no other recourse but to act. Right or wrong something had to happen. This region has been a time bomb since I was a kid. This time we did not need a back door to do something this time we can directly do something to bring some stability to some if not all this region.

Can Americans ever see anything other than in 'The Reds/drug dealers/terrorists/Muslims want to take over the world' terms?

They don't, just want others to stop meddling in their bit - right or wrong.

The US has done pretty good job so far of taking over the world anyway. No terrible thing maybe, but always likely to sew the seeds of discontent and opposition. It's just the way of things.

They fight, because they like to fight I think.
Silly people...
It is so that the most people of the Netherlands are against the bombing, but they do cooperate in the war against terrorisme.
So the younger people have more to fight about.
Fighting eachother they do any way, not so bad as the last time, but always fighting.
Maybe they practice for as they have to fight in some 'war', I really do not know. It is very irritating not to can go out the door here , without being bothered by these people who are molesting eachother over something they don't even have to fight, for they are all born here, in the Netherlands. Most of them, I should say. Some are illegal.


And now there is that strange powder...
I really do hope this is not the way they are going to play it...
This is so freaking sick, I can't believe it.
But it is not only in the USA, this morning there was powder found in the same kind of package as in the USA, here in the Netherlands...
So you see.
They are terrorising us all, all people who don't want a war, not only you there.
All of us, friends and allies of the USA.
You see.
Look at the news or look for a paper on Internet.
It will be there that the powder is found in Europe too.
That scares me.
This is so sick, to plague people in such a sick way, innocent people.
It scares the hell out of me that people can be so sick, really deranged sick.
I do not have words for this.
Making people sick...on purpose, yes that is the way...
Sick people...
:confused:

tiassa: * He's ugly, too. Man, do you know how many American political figures should be on the hunt-down-and-punish list? Sure, there's Pat Robertson, but the main body of Americans probably wouldn't give a rip about it if the Pakistanis negotiated the surrender of the man who leads the 700-Club

Hey man! That's my favorite TV show! (700-Club):D


Bowser: I think I've stumbled onto a peaceful solution. Let our military start dropping into Afghanistan cases of Old Spice Deodorant Sticks--long lasting and original scent, of course. It's personal hygene which makes them so nasty.

- Yes, I'm being very bad. I shouldn't generalize. It isn't fair. I just felt a need to lighten up my mood. My apologies to all ugly muslim men and stinky Afghans.

Well, at least I'm not Muslim.:rolleyes:
But I could use a case of Old Spice! :eek:


Banshee: Bowser, my country is involved already.
Our government has send militairy groups and equipment to 'your' waiting American fleet of ships and the rest of the militairy 'garbage'.

The flat in which I live have a lot of Moslim people living in it too.
Every evening there are fightings, right under my nose.
Moslims against not-Moslims.
Man, I am so sick of it...

And I am not freaking out...
It is scary.
I don't want to leave my house any more in the evening.
What do I have to do with this all?
Tell me.

I am not a terrorist, nor have I done something to any Moslim, so let me live in peace.
I didn't attack the WTC either.
I am non-violent.
I am pacifist.
So are a lot of people...
And Afghanistan is closer to my country then to yours...
You know, this is a very little country.
One missile...gone country, bye, bye.
I have a child.
That is what I am so afraid for.
He is only fourteen.

Banshee,

First, you have my empathy. It must be upsetting to be living in the middle of these neanderthalic people, who possess not even a trace of emotional self control in public. Given the record of these people, you should be worried for the safety of yourself and your young son! If he is anything like normal American boys, then he is just now at that age when boys start to run with their friends and get into mischief. The last thing that you want is for him to get into the middle of these people when they are showing their true colors!

Since you are a pacifist, your options are limited to calling the police. However if you do so, you and your son may well become subjected to retribution by these people. I don't know if it is a criminal violation to cause a public disturbance in the Netherlands, but if these people are truly causing a problem, then your local police should understand your situation and do something about these people! Given the current media coverage of these very types of people, I imagine that your local police ought to be happy to do something about them, not only for you, but for all of your law abiding neighbors as well!

Look at this way, I am not saying that you should call the police because they are Muslims or because of the recent events, but that you should not be forced to live in fear. If anyone in your community should be afraid, it ought to be these people! I know that I would not be "showing my ass" in public (causing my neighbors to be distressed because of my actions) if I were a Muslim today. In fact, I would be at least a little extra careful to avoid any type of conflict with anyone if I were Muslim and had any damned intention of living as a law abiding citizen of the Netherlands.

Being a law abiding citizen is what it's all really about anyway, isn't it? These people in your community ought to be happy to live in your nation and respect your nation's laws and lifestyles, otherwise they should go back to their parent nations. I am often confounded by some foreign immigrants to the USA, who want to lobby and change this country into what the left behind. The main reason that they come to the USA is prosperity, yet they cannot seem to understand that the prosperity of the USA is largely because of the political "Checks and Balances" of our laws that are built into the American Constitution and because of the American People's desire to live free of tyranny and fear.

Believe it or not, Banshee, most Americans are NOT as they are portrayed by the many media outlets. We aren't all a bunch of rich assholes. In fact, most Americans are a pretty ordinary group of hard working people, who want to raise their children and get along with their neighbors. We don't crave for war and we don't go out of our way to piss off people in other countries! We don't push our political leaders to attack other nations, nor do we hope to conquer the rest of the world. Like you Banshee, we just want to "........ get along."

Good luck Banshee.

Thank you Mr. Riddler, for your support.
You know, I think they have something to fight about, something new.
You Moslims did this, and so on...
The Netherlands young men are not so friendly either, so the both 'groups' are guilty on this stupid behaviour. It is more that there are very much foreign people here in the Netherlands, and that is why some young people fight them, because they are illegal sometimes and black and moslim and so on.
It is ridiculous.
But it goes from both sides.
Difficult, this, really...
I don't know what to do.
If you say something, you better watch out. That I tried, once. Haha, never again. What angry young men they are.
I hope it will calm down. That would be so much better, I really hope it will calm down.
Everywhere...
:rolleyes:

Captian Canada

What do you think Bin Laden or Hussan want?

Well, specifically or generally?

Bin Laden -
I think he's something of a megalomaniac with a messiah complex mixed with deep hatred of the US. He would like nothing more than to spark a region-wide war and push the US out of Saudi. Destruction of Israel is a given, as is the end of sanctions on Iraq. Specifically, I think the attack on WTC (if it was him) was largely an end in itself, but as with so much of what goes on, the ultimate objective is a region-wide war with Israel.

To have a chance of defeating Israel even extremists like Bin Laden realise you need states like Saudi and Egypt on board. To get this you need popular Arab sentiment. To get this you need US attacks on an Arab/Muslim country. The more the better. So here we see Israel and the US playing into his hands by talking about hitting Iraq (Israel has even talked about hitting Egypt!). A peace deal between Israelis and Palestinians would be a massive blow for terrorists in the region. But Israel, and to an extent the Palestinians, seem unable to do it.

Hussein -
He wants an end to sanctions above all else. Any chance to humiliate the US is a plus, and any attempt to build his arsenal without the UN coming in is a bonus. Ultimately, he wants to put his military back where it was, increase oil revenue, push the US out of Saudi, dominate the Gulf states and attack Israel (if given a chance - he is NOT suicidal or a complete idiot, so he wouldn't launch a military strike unless he was attacked by the US - and even then it would be only a token effort). GIven his health, I think he realises he won't achieve this so he's lining up Qusay (who is not quite as reviled in the west) to be his replacement. His major concerns are internal, political and control.

Linking Iraq to the anthrax scare makes no sense to me. I cannot see it. It would not fit with Saddam's aims or recent policy. Can anyone tell me of a terrorist attack outside of Iran or Israel/occupied territories that Iraq has been linked with?

Well, for what it's worth, that's what I think these men want.

Maybe you are right.
Maybe you are not.
Insane they are, that is for sure...

Actually, I did omit one crucial factor. Bin Laden wants to overthrow the Saudi government more than anything else, and it's not as far away as it may initially appear.

Captain Canada

I agree with your profiles of the two, but I do believe that it doesn't stop there. Hussien wants weapons of mass destruction. Why? Even the countries around him that have them have no more say in policy then he does. So having weapons of mass destruction doesn't change anything, unless you plan on using them. using them close to home is the mind set of a madman. he has no way of delivering them farther then a scud missile, not the ideal distance to be safe from your own weapon as far as I can tell.

Anthrax, as far as I can tell. It is not terrorism from overseas. I think this is some American hate group. So far it seems like only democrats have been sent these letters, along with news/media. What terrorist group(overseas) would single out democrats?

So my gut feeling on this is it's definitely some F@#$ed up Americans doing it. Think about it this would be the most opportune time to do this because all the fingers would point elsewhere.

Patman
Appearently our thought trains run in the same line on this Anthrax stuff. It is my speculation that this is a militia group of some kind with a beef towards the democrats. While it will be a while before all is known of what the investigation turns up I would think our own people would be most likely the ones to come up with the access. To top it all off a year or so ago the was some concern about not having enough antidote to protect the population at large broadcast over the news. Now the question in my mind is this, Was that a set up for whoever may have had access to the stuff? Did our higher politicans know that this stuff was missing from some where? I ask that because if you were a terrorists, would you not want to do the maximum amount of damage with the least effort? Anthrax is not exactly the premium tool to use. It does not spead that rapidly, it is easy to contain and easy to eliminate. If you were the politicains in power, would this not be what you would want released to damage the public rather than some kind of superbug that threatens entire continents and their populations? If you must pick one or the other this is by far the best choice. Or course this also opens the door for the thought of maybe our government is trying to manuiplate the public feelings in one direction or the other. Just a thought to bounce out there.

Whatever you say guys, I do believe you, but I do not trust your government.
I never will...
To much damage is done over the years.
Not for the benefit of USA, I am sorry to say so.
It is not your fault, you are just the inhabitants of this big country with its 'scary' government...

Banshee
Trust and government are two words most Americans don't use in the same sentence, for one reason or another.:D:

Well Patman, I guess why that is.
I do agree, you can't say both in one sentence in America...;)

The US government has never done anything wrong to me, so I do suppose I trust it...I do not think it's neccessary to be scared of something because it's too big. If it was big and very corrupt, yes, but the USA is not corrupt (at least to a degree.) The US is big and good, and that's not bad. Although smaller government is always a plus...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Excuse me?
The USA government is not corrupt?
Oh, well, thank you for telling me this. I thought different, haha.
But whatever you want Congratulations, whatever you want, hahaha.
USA government, not corrupt......
Ok!

The US government is corrupt--just not to the point where I do not trust it. We are all corrupt in many forms. the only thing that could not be would be God, or any other impossible model of perfection.

:D And about the MJ comment, Banshee, it was a joke. Yes, a little sick, but still a joke. It doesn't mean I have a ruined soul or anything. Good for you for being so compassionate you take offnese at a joke aimed at Michael Jackson.:cool:

lol