The basic premise for the belief in Hell is in the Bible which teaches the following three points of doctrine as truth.

1. An omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), and omnibenevolent (all-loving) God exists.
2. Some people will be consigned to Hell forever, and will be eternally punished or tortured there.
3. According to the Bible, Hell is an actual place and is located beneath your feet in the center of the earth. Yes, it really does teach this!

Ladies and Gentlemen I have a few basic questions:

1. Why would an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God allow the creation of souls foreknowing those souls would end up in Hell?

2. All human beings are born into a fallen condition, according to the Bible, and deserve death and eternal punishment in Hell. How is it just or loving to punish humans for a condition which no human can avoid?

3. How can God give such flawed, ignorant, and fallen creatures as ourselves the responsibility for our own eternal destinies?

4. Humans can commit only a very finite amount of sin or wrong-doing in one lifetime, yet Hell is an infinite punishment. In fact, the Bible even teaches that all it takes is just one single sin to deserve an eternity in hell. How is this justice or loving?

5. How can God punish a person for not believing in him when, as an omnipotent being, he can make his existence known with certainty to every person, but He still chooses not to?

6. If Hell is the choice of every individual who goes there how is it plausible that any informed, rational person would ever deliberately and knowingly really choose to go there?

7. It is clear that the religion a person subscribes to is largely a result of the culture they are born into. How can a person be thrown into hell because of his place of birth, because of geography? This alone makes the Hell of the Bible seem profoundly unfair.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this topic?

Thank You!

If humanity is held to be so fallen, how is it proper for an omnibenevolent God to give forgiveness?

were in bible does it say that god is omnipotent?

generally the problems of hell are resolved once it is determined that hell is not eternal, since eternity rests on god and one's relationship with god (nevertheless, a little bit of time in hell feels like a long, long , long time)

generally the problems of hell are resolved once it is determined that hell is not eternal, since eternity rests on god and one's relationship with god (nevertheless, a little bit of time in hell feels like a long, long , long time)

But all the problems of hell are resolved once it is determined that it doesn't exist at all.

But all the problems of hell are resolved once it is determined that it doesn't exist at all.
a high school dropout also has no problems with physics either by adopting the same means of knowing (ie - outright rejection)

Ahemmmmmm ..

When I was a wee one - I never learned about God beeing omnibenevolent ????

I guess he might be omnibenevolent to all and everything in Paradise ....
But then the " apple-eating incident " occured, and Adam and Eve were evicted........ I am not sure God has any omnibenevolent obligations for the human mankind anymore ..........at least not untill your souls enter Paradise again ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibenevolence

1. An omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), and omnibenevolent (all-loving) God exists.

God is just and does not love evil. This concept that God is all loving has been twisted. God is all forgiving to those who accept the truth but He wills not to have eternity with those who love a lie. God does not love those who love evil. But is willing to forgive those who turn from their love of evil.



1. Why would an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God allow the creation of souls foreknowing those souls would end up in Hell?

God has given us free will a great and wonderful gift. But with free will comes the freedom to chose evil. Yes God foreknew that some would chose evil. He will put up with them for the sake of those who will choose Good.

Romans 9
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



2. All human beings are born into a fallen condition, according to the Bible, and deserve death and eternal punishment in Hell. How is it just or loving to punish humans for a condition which no human can avoid?

We are not condemned for the condition. People are condemned for shaking their fists as God and saying their evil condition is not evil but good. If people agree with God that evil is in fact evil and if they agree with God that they are by their nature, evil. Then they will accept the forgiveness freely open to them via the Messiah Jesus with joy. Otherwise they can choose to remain as vessels of wrath.



3. How can God give such flawed, ignorant, and fallen creatures as ourselves the responsibility for our own eternal destinies?

What? Would you prefer that someone else have control of your eternal destination? wanna be a zombie?



4. Humans can commit only a very finite amount of sin or wrong-doing in one lifetime, yet Hell is an infinite punishment. In fact, the Bible even teaches that all it takes is just one single sin to deserve an eternity in hell. How is this justice or loving?

Those who love evil will face the eternal consequences of their earthly life’s stance on the issue. And again it is not the single sin that condemns its the attitude to that sin.



5. How can God punish a person for not believing in him when, as an omnipotent being, he can make his existence known with certainty to every person, but He still chooses not to?

He has made himself known. It’s just that some people hate what God has revealed about Himself. Those who hate the will of God will not spend eternity with Him. Most people do not reject God because of lack of evidence they reject God because the hate what the evidence reveals. Just as you are doing here in your post. You are revealing your hate for the will of God. Nothing you are stating here either proves or disproves the existence of God, it only reveals your hate for His revealed will.



6. If Hell is the choice of every individual who goes there how is it plausible that any informed, rational person would ever deliberately and knowingly really choose to go there?

Easy. Because pride in self is an incredibly powerful motive for some. People want to be independent to do what they will to do. To be masters of their own destiny. The knowledge that they are a created being and that the Creator is by His very nature superior and a level above them offends the hell out of them. You know a lot of people will cut of their own nose to spite their face. Pride makes people do stupid things but they will do anything to keep their pride intact.


7. It is clear that the religion a person subscribes to is largely a result of the culture they are born into. How can a person be thrown into hell because of his place of birth, because of geography? This alone makes the Hell of the Bible seem profoundly unfair.

I believe people are thrown into the lake of fire for rejecting the love of the truth. Thereby showing that they embrace the opposite of the Love of the Truth.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

So where is Hell? Is it still under our feet? The literal translation of the Bible?

a high school dropout also has no problems with physics either by adopting the same means of knowing (ie - outright rejection)

I reject it because I care about evidence. There are many things that are true that currently have no evidence or even any reason for us to think about, but we can't guess them, we need evidence to uncover them before we can then make a credible claim. There is nothing about god, heaven or hell that stands up to scientific scrutiny. All these religious folk are simply making claims that an electron exists before finding evidence for it.

there is no hell and no heaven. there is us in silence of universe.

I'm yust wandering but what happend to all the people who where born and died before the bible was written, where are they?

I've never truly read the bible, but isn't the bible yust a cencord little part of a collection of books.

I've never truly read the bible, but isn't the bible yust a cencord little part of a collection of books.

a very old one and wise book. Not that it is right...but wise.

perhaps I should read it to think of my old days. Can't say I give death much tought I yust hope that the wings are not compulsatory.

perhaps I should read it to think of my old days. Can't say I give death much tought I yust hope that the wings are not compulsatory.

The part I love in bible is the story of the shepard, its very calming.

If humanity is held to be so fallen, how is it proper for an omnibenevolent God to give forgiveness?

Good Question!

1. This is kinda like asking, how is it proper for a loving father to forgive his own newborn baby daughter for having aids?

She had nothing to do with it and did not ask to be born? She contracted it from her mother as a result of her mother's immorality and sin. It was the mother's sin not the daughters. It would be insane to blame the daughter for the sins of the mother. Do you agree? But God does indeed punish children for the sins of their parents. Of course the Bible teaches that this is both true and false! So pick the side you like the best.

2. Now I am a "fallen" father myself and I have 3 "fallen" children of my own and I am completely able and willing to forgive all of their sins against me whenever they ask me to, if not before. In fact, it delights me to do so. And I never, ever require them to kill any of their pet fish or their dog or any of their friends as payment. What is wrong with me anyway? I must be really messed up! Why cannot God do such a simple thing?

3. Even my own "fallen" children can forgive each other without the shedding of blood. How can this be, when according to the Bible, without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness of sin?

4. How is it also possible for an omnibenevolent God to kill His own Son? How does causing injury to your own son, and blood letting, and death pay for anything?

Perhaps He is not omnibenevolent, just as others have said! And perhaps the doctrine of "unconditional love" is made up as well. Someone really needs to tell all those pastors that teach this doctrine that they are in serious error.

I look forward to your comments.

Thanks!

So where is Hell? Is it still under our feet? The literal translation of the Bible?

Yes, according to the Bible, Hell is indeed under our feet in the heart of the earth, that is, unless God moved it or something and did not tell us. It is supposed to be somewhere between where I live and China. I will be happy to find the references for you if you wish.

There are even rumors that you can hear the screams of people at some of the volcanoes around the world. Find one and check it out yourself on your next vacation! I frankly do not believe this, however.

were in bible does it say that god is omnipotent?

It basically teaches that He is and is not omnipotent! Right up your alley! But perhaps that is for another thread!

Hell and heaven are nothing more then "manipulating" tools to fool the masses. Do as we demand, and your soul will enter in heaven, a place of bliss and be close to god..bla,bla,bla bull shit!! Hell is a place of damnation, disobey us, disobey our doctrine and your soul will burn for eternity, tourture and you will be with the devil! Ya! nothing more than made up bull shit, to get people to do what religious leaders wanted!!

Don't you suppose this is exactly how these molesting priest got children through the ages! These molestation of children is nothing new, it's been going on since ancient past.

generally the problems of hell are resolved once it is determined that hell is not eternal, since eternity rests on god and one's relationship with god (nevertheless, a little bit of time in hell feels like a long, long , long time)

As far as I can tell, LG, according to the Bible, Hell is supposed to be eternal torment. So, the problems remain.

Do you have any other thoughts?

Thank You!

Hell and heaven are nothing more then "manipulating" tools to fool the masses. Do as we demand, and your soul will enter in heaven, a place of bliss and be close to god..bla,bla,bla bull shit!! Hell is a place of damnation, disobey us, disobey our doctrine and your soul will burn for eternity, tourture and you will be with the devil! Ya! nothing more than made up bull shit, to get people to do what religious leaders wanted!!

I am inclined to agree with you! Thank you for your comments!

Don't you suppose this is exactly how these molesting priest got children through the ages! These molestation of children is nothing new, it's been going on since ancient past.

I do indeed suppose! This insight is brilliant!

Thanks Again!

But all the problems of hell are resolved once it is determined that it doesn't exist at all.

This is my own current position.

Thank You!

Ahemmmmmm ..

When I was a wee one - I never learned about God beeing omnibenevolent ????

I guess he might be omnibenevolent to all and everything in Paradise ....
But then the " apple-eating incident " occured, and Adam and Eve were evicted........ I am not sure God has any omnibenevolent obligations for the human mankind anymore ..........at least not untill your souls enter Paradise again ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibenevolence


Perhaps you are right! Or perhaps the Bible teaches both that He is and is not omnibenevolent to all. There seems to be a measure of confusion on this topic. Perhaps point number one is incorrect?

Thank you for the link!

I reject it because I care about evidence. There are many things that are true that currently have no evidence or even any reason for us to think about, but we can't guess them, we need evidence to uncover them before we can then make a credible claim. There is nothing about god, heaven or hell that stands up to scientific scrutiny. All these religious folk are simply making claims that an electron exists before finding evidence for it.

Perhaps if we were to drill a shaft straight down through the earth's crust and we lowered a microphone down we could hear the screams of all the people and prove that hell really exists. What do you think?

Just kidding!

eternity isn't all time, eternity is no time.

eternity isn't all time, eternity is no time.

Please Clarify!

Time pertains to the physical world. In the non-physical spiritual world there is no time. The abscence of time in the spiritual world is what is referred to as eternity. Eternity is indivisible (one moment) and without limit (not to be confused with forever).

Heaven and Hell is actually the exact same "place." It will be perceived as good or bad depending on the individual. You must also go through Hell to get to Heaven.

I reject it because I care about evidence.
then it raises the question (not just with you but also with teh high school drop out) why you don't care about the processes for acquiring evidence

There are many things that are true that currently have no evidence or even any reason for us to think about, but we can't guess them, we need evidence to uncover them before we can then make a credible claim.
can you give an example of a credible claim to knowledge that doesn't involve applying a process to uncover it?

There is nothing about god, heaven or hell that stands up to scientific scrutiny.
there are also heaps of references in scriptures about how god is transcendental, thus empiricism is not determined as the best method for verifying theistic claims

All these religious folk are simply making claims that an electron exists before finding evidence for it.
actually they are like the physicist - they make claims about an electron and also claims about how one can come to the platform of perceiving the electron, but such claims are flatly refused by persons who have a bad attitude, like the high school drop out

As far as I can tell, LG, according to the Bible, Hell is supposed to be eternal torment. So, the problems remain.

Do you have any other thoughts?

Thank You!

even the vedas advocate that material life (not just the lower hellish regions) is populated by nitya (eternally) baddha (conditioned souls) - in other words the time duration of material existence (hell included) is eternal - one can stay there as long as one wants (or as long as one is not sufficiently intelligent to see the value of getting out of it) - theoretically one could spend an eternity there - practically though, we don't

The special qualities of the hellish planets is that a little bit of time there passes incredibly slowly, just like the special quality of the uppers regions of material existence is that time passes very quickly (much like having your hand on a hotplate for 20 seconds feels like an eternity and a two week holiday in the Caribbean seems to pass quicker than an eye blink)

even the vedas advocate that material life (not just the lower hellish regions) is populated by nitya (eternally) baddha (conditioned souls) - in other words the time duration of material existence (hell included) is eternal - one can stay there as long as one wants (or as long as one is not sufficiently intelligent to see the value of getting out of it) - theoretically one could spend an eternity there - practically though, we don't

The special qualities of the hellish planets is that a little bit of time there passes incredibly slowly, just like the special quality of the uppers regions of material existence is that time passes very quickly (much like having your hand on a hotplate for 20 seconds feels like an eternity and a two week holiday in the Caribbean seems to pass quicker than an eye blink)

Ok, now you lost me. Are you saying that one should believe scripture as truth? Or are you saying that one can, by the right method, verify the truth of scripture for oneself?

Ok, now you lost me. Are you saying that one should believe scripture as truth? Or are you saying that one can, by the right method, verify the truth of scripture for oneself?

Both options are valid, but they both amount to the same result - like for instance if your mother tells you fire is hot or if you decide to touch fire, the result in knowledge is the same - of course having the intelligence to understand scripture is certainly unique and requires cultivation, so generally the life of the average theist is made up of a mixture of both processes until they come to the perfectional platform

God is just and does not love evil.

Sounds good so far!

This concept that God is all loving has been twisted.

Yes, it has!

God is all forgiving to those who accept the truth but He wills not to have eternity with those who love a lie.

Billions have never heard “the truth” about Jesus and are condemned anyway. I think Paul addresses this.

God does not love those who love evil. But is willing to forgive those who turn from their love of evil.

People are never allowed to turn from their “love of evil”, once they are in hell, so this does not affect them at all. All Christians still do love evil so none must be forgiven. Supposedly the only way to avoid this is to die. There are none righteous. Not one!

God has given us free will a great and wonderful gift. But with free will comes the freedom to chose evil. Yes God foreknew that some would chose evil. He will put up with them for the sake of those who will choose Good.

Romans 9
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

We are not condemned for the condition. People are condemned for shaking their fists as God and saying their evil condition is not evil but good. If people agree with God that evil is in fact evil and if they agree with God that they are by their nature, evil. Then they will accept the forgiveness freely open to them via the Messiah Jesus with joy. Otherwise they can choose to remain as vessels of wrath.

You are claiming that we have freewill when the scriptures you provided indicate that we do not! It says, “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” and “vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory”. Again, millions have never heard “the truth” about Jesus and are condemned anyway, that is why there is still such a need to evangelize, remember?

What? Would you prefer that someone else have control of your eternal destination? wanna be a zombie?

I would prefer that we were at least afforded the same courtesy that was given to the devil and all of the angels. In the Bible, Satan made his decision with direct experience and full knowledge of the existence and character of God and so did all of the angels that fell with him. They all started from a position of good and made a freewill choice of evil. Perhaps under these circumstances, their condemnation really is just.

But we are exactly the opposite of this! We are all designed to sin by our very nature, at the core of our being, from the very first day we are born. And we are supposed to be able to choose good, after being created evil, with an evil and fallen mind that is supposed to be incapable of any good. We were not created, as truly neutral beings, were we? Why could we not have been created good instead of evil and with direct contact with God so we could all make a true freewill decision to simply remain good or defect to the dark side like the angels? Any ideas?

And, actually, yes I think I would prefer to be a zombie in Heaven as opposed to having freewill and being in eternal torment in Hell. Thanks!

Those who love evil will face the eternal consequences of their earthly life’s stance on the issue. And again it is not the single sin that condemns its the attitude to that sin.

All Christians love evil, and they especially love it that an innocent person was tortured and killed for all of their evil deeds, instead of them. In fact they love this evil the most of all.

He has made himself known.

Then why evangelize? Wake Up! Many are completely ignorant of the Bible. Millions have never read it. Millions more have never even heard of it. Why? Because He has definitely not made Himself known to them.

It’s just that some people hate what God has revealed about Himself. Those who hate the will of God will not spend eternity with Him. Most people do not reject God because of lack of evidence they reject God because they hate what the evidence reveals. Just as you are doing here in your post. You are revealing your hate for the will of God.

Under this approach anything can be accepted as “the truth”, no matter how evil.

Nothing you are stating here either proves or disproves the existence of God, it only reveals your hate for His revealed will.

I agree that nothing here proves or disproves the existence of God. It reveals my hatred for evil, but thanks anyway.

Easy. Because pride in self is an incredibly powerful motive for some. People want to be independent to do what they will to do. To be masters of their own destiny.

Good Point! Why then is there so much arrogance and pride in the Christian community? Any ideas? Perhaps pride is a universal human problem.

The knowledge that they are a created being and that the Creator is by His very nature superior and a level above them offends the hell out of them.

I have no problem with this. I would expect this to be the case. I even desire it to be so! I would love to sit at the feet of God and learn from him all day long. That would be heaven to me! But, according to you, I suppose I will never get the chance.

You know a lot of people will cut of their own nose to spite their face.

I have never seen anyone cut his or her own nose off on purpose. Have you?

Pride makes people do stupid things but they will do anything to keep their pride intact.

These words are true and wise. It is too bad that so many Christians have such a huge problem in this area. I have to look no further than my own mother for an all too real example of this.

I believe people are thrown into the lake of fire for rejecting the love of the truth. Thereby showing that they embrace the opposite of the Love of the Truth.

Then there are some who are thrown into the lake of fire for rejecting what they have never even had any opportunity to accept, see, hear, or be taught simply because of where they were born on this planet.

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

Thank you for your comments!

Take Care!

can you give an example of a credible claim to knowledge that doesn't involve applying a process to uncover it?

Anything religious, where 'knowledge' is invented out of nothing. Like when the animals went on board two by two (lol).

there are also heaps of references in scriptures about how god is transcendental, thus empiricism is not determined as the best method for verifying theistic claims

Well that just about sums it up doesn't it? Sort of like when the Pope claimed around 1,000 ad that Mary bodily ascented up to heaven upon death despite the fact no scripture made any such claim. This is shamelessly invented out of nothing and is now an established tradition in catholocism. And so the pointless bandwagon of invented tradition rolls onwards...

actually they are like the physicist - they make claims about an electron and also claims about how one can come to the platform of perceiving the electron, but such claims are flatly refused by persons who have a bad attitude, like the high school drop out

It's a bad attitude to flatly refuse that which has evidence. It's also a bad attitude to claim something exists without evidence... this is why you have so many religions and cults which only process is brainwashing the superstitious.

Anything religious, where 'knowledge' is invented out of nothing.

"The pursuit of knowledge, unless sanctified by a holy mission, is a pagan act and therefore vile" - St Bernard of Clairvaux, (the most influential christian of his time).

Christians have followed this example ever since - caring not for knowledge, (because it's vile), but for make-believe and fantasy.

It's tragic.

Billions have never heard “the truth” about Jesus and are condemned anyway. I think Paul addresses this.

Well Peter addressed it:

1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

Its a pity you being well read in the Bible where never allowed to see it and understand it's full implications. Maybe if you where more meek and asked for guidance instead of being rebellious and proud you might have more truth revealed to you.






People are never allowed to turn from their “love of evil”, once they are in hell, so this does not affect them at all.

True. But as long as they are given A chance then Justice and mercy are covered.


All Christians still do love evil so none must be forgiven. Supposedly the only way to avoid this is to die. There are none righteous. Not one!

All Christians acknowledge their evil deeds and thoughts as Evil. And acknowledge their unworthiness to obtain eternity with God. You deliver a false allegation against followers of the Messiah Jesus.



You are claiming that we have freewill when the scriptures you provided indicate that we do not! It says, “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction” and “vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory”. Again, millions have never heard “the truth” about Jesus and are condemned anyway, that is why there is still such a need to evangelize, remember?

You cannot understand the scriptures because your set on rebellion against them. The clay exists before The potter decides to prepare them into eternal vessels of mercy or eternal vessels of wrath. We evangelise to bring the good news to those in bondage and ignorance. The good news frees us to have a life in peace and assurance. But it also offers an opportunity for some to reject the truth and thereby condemn themselves to be used as vassals of wrath in this world.



I would prefer that we were at least afforded the same courtesy that was given to the devil and all of the angels. In the Bible, Satan made his decision with direct experience and full knowledge of the existence and character of God and so did all of the angels that fell with him. They all started from a position of good and made a freewill choice of evil. Perhaps under these circumstances, their condemnation really is just.

Just as every human being who has rejected the Messiah Jesus condemnation is just.

But we are exactly the opposite of this! We are all designed to sin by our very nature, at the core of our being, from the very first day we are born. And we are supposed to be able to choose good, after being created evil, with an evil and fallen mind that is supposed to be incapable of any good. We were not created, as truly neutral beings, were we?

We obtained the knowledge of Both Good and Evil and we have the free will to love one and hate the other. We decide from our own free will what we will love and what will distain.



Why could we not have been created good instead of evil and with direct contact with God so we could all make a true freewill decision to simply remain good or defect to the dark side like the angels? Any ideas?

Adam and eve decided they wanted to be Gods just like the God of Abraham. They decided to take satans bait. They had contact with God they knew what He said but choose to disbelieve Him and believe satan. But God had a plan to offer reconciliation and healing to humanity but again it is up to the individual to accept of reject His offer again. People still disbelieve the Word of God.

And, actually, yes I think I would prefer to be a zombie in Heaven as opposed to having freewill and being in eternal torment in Hell. Thanks!

We will not be Zombies in heaven, But we will have the wisdom required to desire and perform what is good.



All Christians love evil, and they especially love it that an innocent person was tortured and killed for all of their evil deeds, instead of them. In fact they love this evil the most of all.

I do not love the fact that Jesus had to die for my salvation. I do not rejoice in the pain and suffering of the Messiah Jesus. But i am eternally grateful for the what Jesus went through for me. You are very wrong to state that we love the fact that Jesus went through pain and death. When a new baby is born the parents and friends are filled with joy there joy is not joy at the pain of child birth the mother went through to bring the baby into the world. They joy is that they baby is born and a new little one is with us.



I agree that nothing here proves or disproves the existence of God. It reveals my hatred for evil, but thanks anyway.

Isaiah 5
20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
And prudent in their own sight!



Why then is there so much arrogance and pride in the Christian community? Any ideas? Perhaps pride is a universal human problem.

Whatever pride that there be God knows what is within the hearts of people. But people often misinterpet suprime confidance in God as pride in self. I am absolutly cobfident in the truth of God and the Messiah Jesus. If thast comes across as self pride then i can do little about that. When someone believes in and stands up without compromise for their God it can be misinterpreted as pride in oneself rather than surpeme confidence in God.



I would love to sit at the feet of God and learn from him all day long. That would be heaven to me!

But only a God who conformed to your sence of what is right... Right. The only God that you would want to sit at the feet of is a God in your own image. As soon as any God taught you something against your ideas of what a God should teach you would spit in His face and turn your back and walk out.


But, according to you, I suppose I will never get the chance.

Who knows what you will accept at the moment of your death? I don't.



I have never seen anyone cut his or her own nose off on purpose. Have you?

Are you simply opposing what i say out of a spirit of opposition for opposition sake?



These words are true and wise. It is too bad that so many Christians have such a huge problem in this area. I have to look no further than my own mother for an all too real example of this.

Who cares about anyone else and their relationship with God?? We are not talking about the faults of others or the state of their relationship with God. Why bring examples of other people up? Your mothers eternal destination is between her and God. Whatever that may be should not come into your relationship with God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

no thank you.

Kenny

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
can you give an example of a credible claim to knowledge that doesn't involve applying a process to uncover it?
”
Anything religious, where 'knowledge' is invented out of nothing. Like when the animals went on board two by two (lol).
given that you advocate knowledge can be determined without a process, this doesn't help you any

“
there are also heaps of references in scriptures about how god is transcendental, thus empiricism is not determined as the best method for verifying theistic claims
”
Well that just about sums it up doesn't it? Sort of like when the Pope claimed around 1,000 ad that Mary bodily ascented up to heaven upon death despite the fact no scripture made any such claim. This is shamelessly invented out of nothing and is now an established tradition in catholocism. And so the pointless bandwagon of invented tradition rolls onwards...

therefore making things up that are not found in scripture is also recommended


“
actually they are like the physicist - they make claims about an electron and also claims about how one can come to the platform of perceiving the electron, but such claims are flatly refused by persons who have a bad attitude, like the high school drop out
”
It's a bad attitude to flatly refuse that which has evidence. It's also a bad attitude to claim something exists without evidence... this is why you have so many religions and cults which only process is brainwashing the superstitious.

its also a bad attitude to deny a claim and flatly refuse the process advocated to verify the claim

Kenny

given that you advocate knowledge can be determined without a process, this doesn't help you any

Any empiracle process which reveals evidence for a claim is the ONLY way to determine wether something exists or not. There is NO other way. Religion and scripture has no credible process either way since these are the same people who say that the animals went on board two by two.

its also a bad attitude to deny a claim and flatly refuse the process advocated to verify the claim

You're just full of shit mate. The only process involved in the existence of hell is delusion. Hell exists as a means of control for people to follow the rules of x religion. Simple as that. Any intelligent creatures on other planets will start off society with invented superstitions like hell as a means for society to follow accepted morals and religions. That is why hell exists.

Adstar,

Perhaps we can come to some agreement on the Quran instead of the Bible.

Now, I am guessing that you have rejected the Quran as being the “Word of God”. If this is indeed so, and I fully expect that it is, upon what basis have you done so? What is it about the Quran that would ever make you think that it was not the “Word of God”? Or conversely, what would it take to convince you that it was?

Was it your own pride that made this decision for you, or was it something else? In your case, it could not be your own pride, because you apparently do not have any, so what brought you to this conclusion? Why would you ever think that the Quran is not the very "Word of God", if indeed you do think that?

Regards!

Was it your own pride that made this decision for you, or was it something else? In your case, it could not be your own pride, because you apparently do not have any, so what brought you to this conclusion? Why would you ever think that the Koran is not the very "Word of God", if indeed you do think that?


He was born into that religious society that tought him the bible. had he been born in M.E. say SaudiArabia, he be here telling us the bible is full of shit, and that Quaran is the very word of god! see, it's all a matter of perspective, the enviorenmental influence of were one lives, and the primier religion of said region!

M.E. nations like to shut down Christian evangelism there, because they know what would happen if they allowed it.

As Muslims can buy airtime in the West like just about anybody else.

Nothing would happen, if there were freedom of religion. It's a fact that most popular beliefs of a region will dominate any new commer. I.E. the US is still predominatenly chirstian, dispite the overwhelming of different religious sects! ;)

Christianity kicks ass wherever it is allowed to be preached and discussed.

Christianity kicks ass wherever it is allowed to be preached and discussed.

Yes, it has killed millions! Congratulations!

Preaching and discussing is killing?

That hat belongs on those who would emulate Muhammed's marauding ways.

And still killing!~ may I add.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/a-abortion/a-abortion7.html

Preaching and discussing is not killing, I think you guys have stumbled onto the wrong thread.

I think you need to read a bit of history!

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/murderers.htm

Those Roman Catholics certainly had some strange leadership, very un-Christian.

There are even rumors that you can hear the screams of people at some of the volcanoes around the world.
Why not record it?

http://www.snopes.com/religion/wellhell.htm

SnakeLord: Christians have followed this example ever since - caring not for knowledge, (because it's vile), but for make-believe and fantasy.

It's tragic.

*************
M*W: Excellent point! This was what I was trying to say in my thread about christians not doing any "extra-biblical reading." Of course, christians didn't even understand what I was saying. The dumber ones professed to reading all kinds of "extra-biblical" literature, but none of it was in reference to their bible! I guess I'm going to have to rephrase my thread so even the ignorant can understand.

You're so silly Med Woman.

*************
M*W: Excellent point! This was what I was trying to say in my thread about christians not doing any "extra-biblical reading." Of course, christians didn't even understand what I was saying. The dumber ones professed to reading all kinds of "extra-biblical" literature, but none of it was in reference to their bible! I guess I'm going to have to rephrase my thread so even the ignorant can understand.

Hey MW are you the real M*W or just a clever imposter! The real M*W that we all know and love had 5,042 posts last I knew. But the above is your first post. So....? Who are you?

IAC: M.E. nations like to shut down Christian evangelism there, because they know what would happen if they allowed it.

*************
M*W: Exactly how much "christian evangelism" is going on in the Mideast? And, come on, what do you think would happen if they allowed "christian evangelism?" I guarantee that the government isn't worried about losing its citizens to christianity!

IAC: Christianity kicks ass wherever it is allowed to be preached and discussed.

*************
M*W: No it doesn't! It's laughed at for the farce it is!

IAC: You're so silly Med Woman.

*************
M*W: You're the one who believes in fairy tales, but you say I'm the one who is "silly!" Yeah, right!

SA6: Hey MW are you the real M*W or just a clever imposter! The real M*W that we all know and love had 5,042 posts last I knew. But the above is your first post. So....? Who are you?

*************
M*W: Thank you for noticing! I am none other than the real M*W, but as you know, to err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer! I was originally M*W, but when sciforums was down a while, I went over to the refugee forum. When sciforums returned, and I had to re-register, it wouldn't take M*W, so I had to start using my #2 handle, M W. I accumulated 1700+ posts on M*W, and 3,700+ posts of M W, so I asked the programmers to lump me altogether as M*W. They did just that, then today, I had to start over. I think they're still working on it, so I hope to be put back together in one piece before long. It sure feels good to be loved!

Hey Med Woman, then why don't they allow public preaching and discussion of Christianity?

then why don't they allow public preaching and discussion of Christianity?

I suppose that depends entirely on who you mean by "they". In England not only is it a legal requirement for forced daily worship of a christian nature to occur in schools, but any old fool has the right to preach his garbage to anyone - whether they care or not. Speakers Corner has become the most prominent place for preaching but I have seen fools at many a venue - including after concerts at Wembley etc.

The basic premise ...

We are supposed to fear Hell and be good little citizens, not question the Bible too much. Otherwise we would soon reveal massive contradictions. The Bible was not a comprehensive instruction manual for life by God, it is a collection of the writings of many people with differing agendas. That is why it is not consistent or plausable.

Kenny

given that you advocate knowledge can be determined without a process, this doesn't help you any
”
Any empiracle process which reveals evidence for a claim is the ONLY way to determine wether something exists or not.
then it begs the question why do you belittle theistic claims without the application of the relevant process (in other words you reject the claims on the basis that the process isn't bona fide, yet remain hard pressed to establish what the said process is)

There is NO other way. Religion and scripture has no credible process either way since these are the same people who say that the animals went on board two by two.
the point is that you are not in a position to either verify or deny anything made in the name of theism, because you don't know what the process is - (the notion of invisible particles colliding to form substance is also an absurdity to a high school drop out - I don't think that we would place as a condition to elaborate knowledge that it can only be valid if it appears believable by consensus)

“
its also a bad attitude to deny a claim and flatly refuse the process advocated to verify the claim
”
You're just full of shit mate. The only process involved in the existence of hell is delusion. Hell exists as a means of control for people to follow the rules of x religion.
so your argument is - one of the side effects of saying hell exists is that it bears a social control therefore it is obviously false. Given that if hell does actually exist, it would be likely to bear a social control (just like if the police force actually exists, it would likely to bear a social control - in fact it would be useless unless it did) its not clear how this is a strong argument

Simple as that. Any intelligent creatures on other planets will start off society with invented superstitions like hell as a means for society to follow accepted morals and religions. That is why hell exists.

so in other words because it bears a real effect it is obviously false
:confused:

Adstar,

Perhaps we can come to some agreement on the Quran instead of the Bible.

Now, I am guessing that you have rejected the Quran as being the “Word of God”. If this is indeed so, and I fully expect that it is, upon what basis have you done so? What is it about the Quran that would ever make you think that it was not the “Word of God”? Or conversely, what would it take to convince you that it was?

Was it your own pride that made this decision for you, or was it something else? In your case, it could not be your own pride, because you apparently do not have any, so what brought you to this conclusion? Why would you ever think that the Quran is not the very "Word of God", if indeed you do think that?

Regards!

I reject the quran for basicly the same reason i rejected roman catholisism. Both teach counter to the teachings of the Messiah Jesus. Both have, and do justify Holy War/Jihad/crusade.

muhammed taught in rebellion against the teachings of Jesus just as the catholic church does and along with many other Christian churches who also support the doctrine of justifiable war set down by a catholic agent/twister of the teachings of Jesus.

The simple measure of The Words of Jesus eliminates most organised religions on this planet.

As for pride i do have my moments. I confess i can be a proud S.O.B at sometimes. But at least i know i am wrong when i am and am willing to admit it to God.

Once again its not about sin. Its about our attitude to sin.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Hell is a corrupt human construct, deliberately designed and propagated by power hungry humans to meet their human desires.

Hell is a corrupt human construct, deliberately designed and propagated by power hungry humans to meet their human desires.
So you have stated what it is.

Unless you also state why you believe it is this we don't have enough substance for much of a discussion outside of the exchange of tentative claims

Kenny
then it begs the question why do you belittle theistic claims without the application of the relevant process (in other words you reject the claims on the basis that the process isn't bona fide, yet remain hard pressed to establish what the said process is)

It's like your asking me to find a 'process' to perceive Humpty Dumpty... Completely pointless.

so your argument is - one of the side effects of saying hell exists is that it bears a social control therefore it is obviously false.

No, I'm not. But it's still obviously false.

Given that if hell does actually exist, it would be likely to bear a social control (just like if the police force actually exists, it would likely to bear a social control - in fact it would be useless unless it did) its not clear how this is a strong argument

If it was verified empirically and not by some pathetic imagined nursery rhyme.

so in other words because it bears a real effect it is obviously false
:confused:

It has an effect... just like a belief that spotting 2 magpies is good luck has a real effect in the actions of said superstitious people. But "just because you feel it doesn't mean it's there".

I reject the quran for basicly the same reason i rejected roman catholisism. Both teach counter to the teachings of the Messiah Jesus. Both have, and do justify Holy War/Jihad/crusade.

muhammed taught in rebellion against the teachings of Jesus just as the catholic church does and along with many other Christian churches who also support the doctrine of justifiable war set down by a catholic agent/twister of the teachings of Jesus.

The simple measure of The Words of Jesus eliminates most organised religions on this planet.

As for pride i do have my moments. I confess i can be a proud S.O.B at sometimes. But at least i know i am wrong when i am and am willing to admit it to God.

Once again its not about sin. Its about our attitude to sin.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I am with you so far and I agree with you!

But... What is wrong with "justifying Holy War/Jihad/crusade"? Why is this a basis for rejecting the Quran as the "Word of God" or even the Catholic Church? If they are really right, if they really have the truth, wouldn't that make this practice justifiable?

Kenny


then it begs the question why do you belittle theistic claims without the application of the relevant process (in other words you reject the claims on the basis that the process isn't bona fide, yet remain hard pressed to establish what the said process is)
”
It's like your asking me to find a 'process' to perceive Humpty Dumpty... Completely pointless.
another example of the "you are wrong because you are wrong argument"

“
so your argument is - one of the side effects of saying hell exists is that it bears a social control therefore it is obviously false.
”
No, I'm not. But it's still obviously false.
another example of the "you are wrong because you are wrong argument"

“
Given that if hell does actually exist, it would be likely to bear a social control (just like if the police force actually exists, it would likely to bear a social control - in fact it would be useless unless it did) its not clear how this is a strong argument
”
If it was verified empirically and not by some pathetic imagined nursery rhyme.
and since all empirical claims function by applying a process, its not clear why you discredit the process (ooops I forgot, "Theism is wrong because it is wrong")

“
so in other words because it bears a real effect it is obviously false

”
It has an effect... just like a belief that spotting 2 magpies is good luck has a real effect in the actions of said superstitious people. But "just because you feel it doesn't mean it's there".
therefore the logical conclusion would be that the argument that "hell is false because it controls people" is baseless

What is wrong with "justifying Holy War/Jihad/crusade"? Why is this a basis for rejecting the Quran as the "Word of God" or even the Catholic Church? If they are really right, if they really have the truth, wouldn't that make this practice justifiable?

Amazing:

It is wrong to justify something that God has revealed is against his will. Jesus is my Lord/Ruler/Leader and all who claim to be followers of Jesus should say the same, If Someone claims that He is their Lord then they should agree with His Words. Those who believe in justifiable war or Holy War whatever tag they place on it are in clear rebellion against the Word of Jesus. I don't really know how to explain it any more clearly than i have. This is basic Word of Jesus stuff. But i suppose the basics are ignored by some and rejected by others.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Amazing:

It is wrong to justify something that God has revealed is against his will. Jesus is my Lord/Ruler/Leader and all who claim to be followers of Jesus should say the same, If Someone claims that He is their Lord then they should agree with His Words. Those who believe in justifiable war or Holy War whatever tag they place on it are in clear rebellion against the Word of Jesus. I don't really know how to explain it any more clearly than i have. This is basic Word of Jesus stuff. But i suppose the basics are ignored by some and rejected by others.

I still agree with you, Adstar!

But... If the Hebrew scriptures also teach that justifiable war or Holy War is the will of God then should not they be rejected as well for the very same reason that you have rejected the Quran and the Catholic Church? Wouldn't that place anyone who believes in and agrees with the Hebrew scriptures in a position of "rebellion against the Word of Jesus".

If not, then why not?

Thanks!

Kenny

[quote]another example of the "you are wrong because you are wrong argument"

Wether or not you are wrong is not the issue - it's just irrelevant. If a caveman says an electron exists, even though it is true, it is just irrelevant until we find evidence that his claims is justified. Nothing subjective can be relevant or justified when claiming something exists. We can't give relevance to every single thing that a person claims which is why we should be biased towards those who at least present evidence which can be judged.

[QUOTE=lightgigantic;1277517]Kenny



Wether or not you are wrong is not the issue - it's just irrelevant. If a caveman says an electron exists, even though it is true, it is just irrelevant until we find evidence that his claims is justified. Nothing subjective can be relevant or justified when claiming something exists. We can't give relevance to every single thing that a person claims which is why we should be biased towards those who at least present evidence which can be judged.

therefore in theism it is not just claims of perception - it also has claims of processes that bestow perceptions

As far as I can tell, LG, according to the Bible, Hell is supposed to be eternal torment. So, the problems remain.

Do you have any other thoughts?

Thank You!

Hell is not eternal torment. Hell will destroy the unbelievers, but it will not last forever. The verses in the bible you are refering to are talking about the results being eternal. See Malachi 4:1-3.

Hell is not eternal torment. Hell will destroy the unbelievers, but it will not last forever. The verses in the bible you are refering to are talking about the results being eternal. See Malachi 4:1-3.

Please consider the following...

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46).

In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer.

There are many other verses that suggest this same thing.

Thank you for your comments!

Once again its not about sin. Its about our attitude to sin.


Are you sayin it is more on the intent? Our attitude toward sin could be a sin of itself.

Again I have to say this. The thread was started about hell and has now come to the Koran. Stick with the topic. Adstar was explaining to you his answers to the questions and you proceeded to turn away from that, a common tool used to avoid being wrong known as "Red Hairing."

Stick with the topic. Adstar was explaining to you his answers to the questions and you proceeded to turn away from that, a common tool used to avoid being wrong known as "Red Hairing."

Not really, no. A key part of being human and having discussions is that those discussions 'evolve'. I know, that word has probably dragged you to tears but it's true.

P.S It's "herring".

Yeh, "red hairing," I thought maybe he was talking about something that's as phoney as those purple-red hairdos the ladies find popular.

Not really, no. A key part of being human and having discussions is that those discussions 'evolve'. I know, that word has probably dragged you to tears but it's true.

P.S It's "herring".

thank you for pointing out my mistake. Discussions "evovle" (did I just type that). That is true, but why move on when you have not even come to a conclusion, unless you have arrived at truth and you never intended to discuss it but just to simply state your opinion. Notice how you understood what I meant despite my spelling mistake. How was that possible?

Thank you,
His son,
><>Warrior61<><

Yeh, "red hairing," I thought maybe he was talking about something that's as phoney as those purple-red hairdos the ladies find popular.

Thanks

Please consider the following...

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46).

In this verse, the same word "eternal" is used to describe the punishment of the wicked as well as the eternal life of the believer. The punishment is endless as is the eternal life of the believer.

There are many other verses that suggest this same thing.

Thank you for your comments!


So how come the bible (Jude 1:7) says Sodom and Gomorrah expierences "enternal fire" but 2 Peter 2:6 clearly says they were burned to ashes? Either that is a contradiction, or it means eternal should be read as an eternal result not a continous action. Like Malachi says, the wicked will be ashes under the righteous feet. How can they be still burning if they are ashes? Besides that it is contrary to a loving and just God. If people were tortured in a burning hell for eternity, then sin would be around for enternity and that is exactly the point of hell is to get rid of sin.

Here are some other texts to ponder (underline is my emphsis):

Malachi 4: 1-3: ""For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the Lord of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves. You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the Lord of hosts."

2 Thes. 1:8,9: "... They will be punished with everlasting destruction ... "

destruction means it does not go on forever.

Matt 10:28: "... be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

destroy means there is an end to it.

Rev. 20:9: "Fire came down from heaven and devoured them."

devoured means they are consumed and there is and end to it.

thank you for pointing out my mistake. Discussions "evovle" (did I just type that). That is true, but why move on when you have not even come to a conclusion, unless you have arrived at truth and you never intended to discuss it but just to simply state your opinion. Notice how you understood what I meant despite my spelling mistake. How was that possible?

Thank you,
His son,
><>Warrior61<><

At the time, I was of the understanding that Adstar was chalking my entire argument up to one thing, pride. I saw no point in continuing that avenue with him so I changed it. Adstar did not object to the turn in our conversation, so why should you?

I personally know of nothing in our conversation that was a "red herring". Would you please explain how you think this applies. Or am I misunderstanding you in some way here?

Thank You!

I do not see why you would want to move to pride. Yes Adstar did follow, why, I do not know. I am jsut wandering why it would change that quickly. If you guys came to a conclusion then ok, but I saw at no point in time where you guys did, so I truly apologize for labeling it as "red herring." I apologize.

I do not see why you would want to move to pride. Yes Adstar did follow, why, I do not know. I am jsut wandering why it would change that quickly. If you guys came to a conclusion then ok, but I saw at no point in time where you guys did, so I truly apologize for labeling it as "red herring." I apologize.

Thanks! No Problem! :)

That is true, but why move on when you have not even come to a conclusion, unless you have arrived at truth and you never intended to discuss it but just to simply state your opinion. Notice how you understood what I meant despite my spelling mistake. How was that possible

Why? Because that's what conversation does. Perhaps it is a negative side-effect of being human, and we can all pray to the gods to change it, but for now it is the way people are. They get side-tracked, they get distracted. Why, just the other day I was talking to my neighbour... (see, that's my point).

Let it be said that there is no such thing as "never intended to discuss it but just to simply state your opinion".. What you need to take into account is that everyone you're expressing your opinion to also has an opinion, (and some have slightly more), and as such discussion will digress and evolve. get used to it..

So how come the bible (Jude 1:7) says Sodom and Gomorrah expierences "enternal fire" but 2 Peter 2:6 clearly says they were burned to ashes? Either that is a contradiction, or it means eternal should be read as an eternal result not a continous action. Like Malachi says, the wicked will be ashes under the righteous feet. How can they be still burning if they are ashes? Besides that it is contrary to a loving and just God. If people were tortured in a burning hell for eternity, then sin would be around for enternity and that is exactly the point of hell is to get rid of sin.

Here are some other texts to ponder (underline is my emphsis):

Malachi 4: 1-3: ""For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the Lord of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves. You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the Lord of hosts."

kl5k, is it possible that Malachi was talking only about the physical, or the earthly, or in other words, what will happen to their body, and is not referring to hell at all?

Or, is their something that I am missing in the context?

Why? Because that's what conversation does. Perhaps it is a negative side-effect of being human, and we can all pray to the gods to change it, but for now it is the way people are. They get side-tracked, they get distracted. Why, just the other day I was talking to my neighbour... (see, that's my point).

Let it be said that there is no such thing as "never intended to discuss it but just to simply state your opinion".. What you need to take into account is that everyone you're expressing your opinion to also has an opinion, (and some have slightly more), and as such discussion will digress and evolve. get used to it..

I am fully aware of that, however if you go to talk to someone about fixing your car and they start talking about a car they bought how is that pertinent? While the discussions might have things in common it is isnt logical to move on with out actually coming to a conclusion. Your example about distraction is true but here you can see things as a whole. I am all for a debate evolving but lets come to a conclusion.

Thank you,
His son,
><>Warrior61<><

I think its hegemonic tool to control both the individual and masses. It is self-regulating (everyone monitors one another for signs of possession), confession relieves the pain of guilt - now the principle is being centralised and technologized.

I am fully aware of that, however if you go to talk to someone about fixing your car and they start talking about a car they bought how is that pertinent? While the discussions might have things in common it is isnt logical to move on with out actually coming to a conclusion. Your example about distraction is true but here you can see things as a whole. I am all for a debate evolving but lets come to a conclusion.

Thank you,
His son,
><>Warrior61<><

You do realize that this very conversation is off the topic of the original thread, don't you? And that you are doing exactly the same thing that you are complaining about!

Why argue about something you do not believe and cannot dissprove?
That is a more fitting exercise for Astro-physicists.

You do realize that this very conversation is off the topic of the original thread, don't you? And that you are doing exactly the same thing that you are complaining about!

You do realize that the topic of this thread has evolved and my "complaining" is pertinent. Thank you though. Honestly. You started the thread and now you come and enlighten me of me talking about something different. See how frustrating it is. Now you see my point or atleast share in my frustration. But I was wrong. Let me type it again and underline it because I do not think that is seen here often. I was wrong. What I saw as moving away from a topic without it being resolved was simply the progression of a debate/discussion where conclusions are drawn with out acknowledement. I am sorry. But again you see why I would be frustrated.

Thank you,
His son,
><>Warrior61<><

by any chance, are you the "Ultimate Warrior"?

In an effort to pick up were we left off...

We obtained the knowledge of Both Good and Evil and we have the free will to love one and hate the other. We decide from our own free will what we will love and what will distain.

Adam and eve decided they wanted to be Gods just like the God of Abraham. They decided to take satans bait. They had contact with God they knew what He said but choose to disbelieve Him and believe satan. But God had a plan to offer reconciliation and healing to humanity but again it is up to the individual to accept of reject His offer again. People still disbelieve the Word of God.

Adstar, Adam and Eve made their decision before they even knew what the knowledge of Good and Evil was. They did not make their decision with a full understanding of it! They made their decision without knowing what they were doing. So, how was their condemnation just?

Isaiah 5
20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
And prudent in their own sight!

I agree completely with this scripture! Your faith justifies genocide over and over again, justifies slavery in general and actually provides instructions on how to sell your own daughter into sexual slavery, legalizes and encourages polygamy in the Old Testament, celebrates the killing of children for acting like children, teaches that the killing of a person for merely picking up sticks on the Sabbath is good, and calls people who really are seeking the truth, arrogant and prideful...etc. etc. And you are calling me evil? Why? Because I object to all of these atrocities?

But only a God who conformed to your sence of what is right... Right. The only God that you would want to sit at the feet of is a God in your own image. As soon as any God taught you something against your ideas of what a God should teach you would spit in His face and turn your back and walk out.

I am sorry, I do have morals. If God actually told me to kill all my children I would not do it. I would even go to Hell instead! You would kill them, because you would have no other choice, to preserve your ticket to heaven, and because you are amoral. If you try and save your life, you will lose it. Seems like I heard that before somewhere! Hmmm?

Are you saying that God will only allow "yes men" into His kingdom? And that everyone who actually has any character or backbone of their own will be kicked out, or excluded, or thrown into hell? You cannot be! Can God really be that small and insecure?

Time for you to tell me how prideful I am again.

Why argue about something you do not believe and cannot dissprove?
That is a more fitting exercise for Astro-physicists.

Over time, it helps me figure out where I am wrong in my thinking!

Yes, according to the Bible, Hell is indeed under our feet in the heart of the earth, that is, unless God moved it or something and did not tell us. It is supposed to be somewhere between where I live and China. I will be happy to find the references for you if you wish.

Would you please so kind as to point out chapter and verse that states this. Maybe I missed it on one of my readings.

My understanding of the locations of heaven and hell are not physical locations but moral ones...[as described in the bible] hell being beneath man and heaven being above him. A place for one to strive for is a high point [heaven] in mans moral make-up. Hell being beneath mans make up.

I don't know if I believe that GOD is all-loving. All Merciful, All Beneficent yes. HE is a GOD of love, yes - simply because HE created it. But HE created ALL THINGS.

My understanding of the locations of heaven and hell are not physical locations but moral ones...[as described in the bible] hell being beneath man and heaven being above him.

From a biblical perspective 'heaven' is simply the sky. 'heaven' as humans view it, (i.e the place where you live your second life), is on another earth, in another Jerusalem - this time made of gold and gems instead of mud and camel poo.

Would you please so kind as to point out chapter and verse that states this. Maybe I missed it on one of my readings.


I will be happy to! I will get them together for you as soon as I can. Hopefully a little later today. That way you can decide what they mean for yourself.

Thanks!

Would you please so kind as to point out chapter and verse that states this. Maybe I missed it on one of my readings.


Here are a few that indicate that hell is physically below us.

Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire is kindled in My anger,And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Psalm 55:15
Let death seize them;Let them go down alive into hell, For wickedness is in their dwellings and among them.

Proverbs 7:27
Her house is the way to hell, Descending to the chambers of death.

Isaiah 14:9
“ Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations.

Ezekiel 31:15
“Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘In the day when it went down to hell, I caused mourning. I covered the deep because of it. I restrained its rivers, and the great waters were held back. I caused Lebanon to mourn for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it.

Ezekiel 31:16
I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth.

Ezekiel 31:17
They also went down to hell with it, with those slain by the sword; and those who were its strong arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations.

Ezekiel 32:21
The strong among the mighty Shall speak to him out of the midst of hell With those who help him: ‘ They have gone down, They lie with the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’

Ezekiel 32:27
They do not lie with the mighty Who are fallen of the uncircumcised, Who have gone down to hell with their weapons of war; They have laid their swords under their heads, But their iniquities will be on their bones, Because of the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

Amos 9:2
“ Though they dig into hell, From there My hand shall take them; Though they climb up to heaven, From there I will bring them down;

by any chance, are you the "Ultimate Warrior"?

What?

Here are a few that indicate that hell is physically below us.

Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire is kindled in My anger,And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

...

Amos 9:2
“ Though they dig into hell, From there My hand shall take them; Though they climb up to heaven, From there I will bring them down;


Yep, I agree hell is under us. But, every text in the old testament that uses the Hebrew word She'ol can translate to grave or hell. Isn't it interesting that none of the old testament texts talk about burning forever?

kl5k, is it possible that Malachi was talking only about the physical, or the earthly, or in other words, what will happen to their body, and is not referring to hell at all?

Or, is their something that I am missing in the context?


The soul does not have everlasting life. Eze. 18:20 states "The soul that sins shall die."

The soul does not have everlasting life. Eze. 18:20 states "The soul that sins shall die." [/COLOR]

Perhaps you are right! Perhaps there is no eternal life?

Job 7:9
As the cloud is consumed and vanishes away, so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.

Job 14:10. 12
But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? ... So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Job 20:7
Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung.

Psalm 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 88:5
The dead ... whom thou rememberest no more.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecclesiastes 3:19
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
The dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward.

Ecclesiastes 9:10
For there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Isaiah 26:14
They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased they shall not rise.

How do these verses work into your belief system?

I still agree with you, Adstar!

But... If the Hebrew scriptures also teach that justifiable war or Holy War is the will of God then should not they be rejected as well for the very same reason that you have rejected the Quran and the Catholic Church? Wouldn't that place anyone who believes in and agrees with the Hebrew scriptures in a position of "rebellion against the Word of Jesus".

If not, then why not?

Thanks!

Ok i have been away for a few day sorry.

War if carried out as an instrument of Gods wrath is not wrong. When God told the Jews to take up arms and fight it was His orders to them and it was right and good for them to hear His will and take up arms and fight.

So i believe in the OT scriptures. That God is justifiable in calling upon His followers to engage in carnal warfare at any time He wants. But the last Orders that came from God through Jesus was for us not to engage in warfare (carnal warfare) but to love our enemies and give the Gospel to all men.

That does not mean that Jesus was saying that the wars of the OT where evil and wrong. Jesus was not making judgement call on the goodness or badness of the wars of the OT. Neither am i. What it means is the ultimate Authority in the lives of those who believe God had changed His rule for us upon the death and resurrection of the Messiah Jesus..

But it is not an end to war because this period of grace will come to an end upon the day of the Messiah's return.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Are you sayin it is more on the intent? Our attitude toward sin could be a sin of itself.

If one believes that their sin is wrong then they have the right spirit towards God and are forgiven through Jesus.

If one believes that their sin is good then they have the wrong spirit towards God and do not have forgiveness.


Read: and read it slowly.

Romans 7
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 8 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Do you get it?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I do not see why you would want to move to pride. Yes Adstar did follow, why, I do not know. I am jsut wandering why it would change that quickly. If you guys came to a conclusion then ok, but I saw at no point in time where you guys did, so I truly apologize for labeling it as "red herring." I apologize.

A conclusion is only obtained when people are seeking one. If people want a conclusion they will keep on digging. But after they breakaway running after them is a waste of time. I am not into force feeding. :)

Also when people already have a conclusion and are only feigning that they are seeking a conclusion the breaking away happens quite quickly.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

In an effort to pick up were we left off...



Adstar, Adam and Eve made their decision before they even knew what the knowledge of Good and Evil was. They did not make their decision with a full understanding of it! They made their decision without knowing what they were doing. So, how was their condemnation just?



I agree completely with this scripture! Your faith justifies genocide over and over again, justifies slavery in general and actually provides instructions on how to sell your own daughter into sexual slavery, legalizes and encourages polygamy in the Old Testament, celebrates the killing of children for acting like children, teaches that the killing of a person for merely picking up sticks on the Sabbath is good, and calls people who really are seeking the truth, arrogant and prideful...etc. etc. And you are calling me evil? Why? Because I object to all of these atrocities?



I am sorry, I do have morals. If God actually told me to kill all my children I would not do it. I would even go to Hell instead! You would kill them, because you would have no other choice, to preserve your ticket to heaven, and because you are amoral. If you try and save your life, you will lose it. Seems like I heard that before somewhere! Hmmm?

Are you saying that God will only allow "yes men" into His kingdom? And that everyone who actually has any character or backbone of their own will be kicked out, or excluded, or thrown into hell? You cannot be! Can God really be that small and insecure?

Time for you to tell me how prideful I am again.


He will allow people who trust Him.

And the people who trust Him place His will above their will even if they do not understand His will.

Why do you seek a God when you have made yourself god? That’s what i do not understand about you. You could not follow anything that goes against your measure of what is moral so why do you need to seek a God for guidance on anything?

SetiAlpha6 could you tell me as best you can why you are seeking God?



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Ah…once again the absurd is rescued from the precipice of reason by a simple…”misunderstanding” requiring a simple reinterpretation.
See when the Bible says 6 days it was considered literally…until science made it absurd…then it became a “misunderstanding” which just had to be adjusted by reinventing what ‘six days’ means.
The problem of Hell, you say?
Pashaw!!!!
One only needs to reinvent what was meant.
See, eternity now doesn’t mean for all time….it means that it just …feeeeeels like it’s for all time.
Whew….I thought I was trapped in a logical fallacy there until I applied the “correct epistemology” to prove the “ontology” of the non-existent existence.

If I had known that all one required to continue remaining obtuse was the “correct interpretations” and the “right epistemology” I would have saved myself all that trouble of actually rationalizing my opinions.

Let us all learn from this great sage of religious absurdity who applies one epistemology in his life and another for his “after-life”.
Let us try to figure out what the difference in intellectual integrity and quality there is between him and those “suicide-bombers” in the Middle East.

The basic premise for the belief in Hell is in the Bible which teaches the following three points of doctrine as truth.

1. An omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), and omnibenevolent (all-loving) God exists.
2. Some people will be consigned to Hell forever, and will be eternally punished or tortured there.
3. According to the Bible, Hell is an actual place and is located beneath your feet in the center of the earth. Yes, it really does teach this!

Ladies and Gentlemen I have a few basic questions:

1. Why would an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God allow the creation of souls foreknowing those souls would end up in Hell?

2. All human beings are born into a fallen condition, according to the Bible, and deserve death and eternal punishment in Hell. How is it just or loving to punish humans for a condition which no human can avoid?

3. How can God give such flawed, ignorant, and fallen creatures as ourselves the responsibility for our own eternal destinies?

4. Humans can commit only a very finite amount of sin or wrong-doing in one lifetime, yet Hell is an infinite punishment. In fact, the Bible even teaches that all it takes is just one single sin to deserve an eternity in hell. How is this justice or loving?

5. How can God punish a person for not believing in him when, as an omnipotent being, he can make his existence known with certainty to every person, but He still chooses not to?

6. If Hell is the choice of every individual who goes there how is it plausible that any informed, rational person would ever deliberately and knowingly really choose to go there?

7. It is clear that the religion a person subscribes to is largely a result of the culture they are born into. How can a person be thrown into hell because of his place of birth, because of geography? This alone makes the Hell of the Bible seem profoundly unfair.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this topic?

Thank You!

Hell is created by Christians.

Hell is created by Christians.Just that comment alone will get you into hell....but fear not, our resident expert on the Beyond and absolute says that it isn't forever...it'll just feel like it is.
you know, a session of torture to teach you a lesson and make you scream "Uncle!!!!!!"
Now doesn't that sound like a benevolent, good, God and doesn't He mirror His followers perfectly?

Let us expand on what this great sciforum sage lightgigantic is teaching us, for a moment.

You see if the “correct” epistemology is applied to Islam, then Islam becomes irrefutable and if the “correct” epistemology is applied on the ontology of Big Foot, then it is ‘fact’.
The central idea here being “correct”, as in: "Proposed by the “right” authorities".

See, science has it backwards.
It uses senses to perceive phenomena and then it tries to extrapolate their meaning or tries to explain then afterwards – in essence it first perceives and then tries to find evidence to explain what is percieved.

Our sage lightgigantic “correctly” begins with the explanation and then tries to find perceptions in support of it.
He hypothesizes a phenomenon (or is taught it), beforehand, and then seeks for reasons to maintain its existence. The meaning and explanations are self-evident and one must only use reason to construct evidence or the “correct” epistemology in support of it.

Knowledge precedes awareness.
Fabulous.
You people are just misguided. If you apply this "epistemological" method then any ontology becomes apparent. Try it.

Let us apply this directly and see how it works.

Rationally lightgigantic and his mental brothers IceageCivilizations &
SetiAlpha6 appear retarded and obtuse and stupid, yet if one assumes that they are intelligent, beforehand, and apply the “correct” epistemology then one proceeds to find evidence in support of their presupposed intelligence.
Voila!!!! Instant success.
Their stupidity only becomes evident when one proceeds in judging them from appearances but if one begins by presupposing their intelligence then the correct epistemology becomes self-evident.

I presuppose lightgigantic isn’t retarded and then interpret his usage of the words “epistemology” and “ontology” as evidence in support of my preferred thesis.
Success, despite all evidence he become wise and he understands and he possesses irrefutable proof of a living God.

I love humanity.

War if carried out as an instrument of Gods wrath is not wrong. When God told the Jews to take up arms and fight it was His orders to them and it was right and good for them to hear His will and take up arms and fight.

...and kill women and innocent children and animals. This is called genocide and you are justifying it! But they were also, on occasion, commanded to spare the lives of all of the virgins and keep them for themselves and the priests. This is called rape and sexual slavery and you are even willing to justify this! You are calling "evil" good. Surely you must realize within yourself that you have been stripped of all of your own morality and that you are now capable of justifying whatever evil might be necessary just to hold onto your faith. You can see that, can’t you?

At the same time you would not hesitate to condemn these very same practices in Catholicism and in the Quran, even when they claim that they are doing the will of God. In this way, you are able to both justify every evil that occurs in the Bible and condemn the very same evil when anyone else does it. Thus, any evil can be justified for one’s self and condemned for all others! I was wrong, this is going way beyond being merely amoral, this way of thinking is irrational and is profoundly immoral. This is exactly how the Nazi’s justified the Holocaust, Adstar!

So i believe in the OT scriptures. That God is justifiable in calling upon His followers to engage in carnal warfare at any time He wants. But the last Orders that came from God through Jesus was for us not to engage in warfare (carnal warfare) but to love our enemies and give the Gospel to all men.

That does not mean that Jesus was saying that the wars of the OT where evil and wrong. Jesus was not making judgement call on the goodness or badness of the wars of the OT. Neither am i. What it means is the ultimate Authority in the lives of those who believe God had changed His rule for us upon the death and resurrection of the Messiah Jesus...

This is merely your own personal attempt to rationalize all of these atrocities for your own personal convenience, nothing more! Don’t forget God does not change. If genocide, and rape, and sexual slavery were all moral in the Old Testament, as you must surely claim, then they would also have to be moral today. He changes not, therefore morality changes not. Perhaps you have rejected the Catholic Church and the Quran on a false basis. You have removed the primary basis for determining whether any document is the “Word of God” or not. And you are trying to embrace both sides of this problem at the same time. You are welcome to it. But, to do that you must call "evil" good.

As for me, I cannot bring myself to do that anymore.

Thank You

A conclusion is only obtained when people are seeking one. If people want a conclusion they will keep on digging. But after they breakaway running after them is a waste of time. I am not into force feeding. :)

Also when people already have a conclusion and are only feigning that they are seeking a conclusion the breaking away happens quite quickly.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I agree! :rolleyes:

He will allow people who trust Him.

He will allow people to what? Question Him?

And the people who trust Him place His will above their will even if they do not understand His will.

If God is capable of commanding us to perform immoral acts then how are we to distinguish His commands from those of Satan? How will we ever be able to distinguish His will from Satan's if they both look the same?

If you were to tell me that you do not understand how God could ever have commanded the atrocities that are described in the Bible, I would agree with you. That is what I have been trying to tell you! But I don't remember you saying that before. And perhaps you are not saying that even now! I don’t know?

Why do you seek a God when you have made yourself god? That’s what i do not understand about you. You could not follow anything that goes against your measure of what is moral so why do you need to seek a God for guidance on anything?

SetiAlpha6 could you tell me as best you can why you are seeking God?


You do me a great disservice, Sir.

I am not God, nor have I ever thought anything of the kind. You are listening to all of the lies that are telling you all of the things that I am supposed to be. I have always sought God to show me the “truth”. And I still do, even though I have many doubts! I am imperfect and flawed and I am doing the best that I can to figure things out.

Perhaps you are right! Perhaps there is no eternal life?

Job 7:9
As the cloud is consumed and vanishes away, so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.

Job 14:10. 12
But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? ... So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Job 20:7
Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung.

Psalm 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 88:5
The dead ... whom thou rememberest no more.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecclesiastes 3:19
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
The dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward.

Ecclesiastes 9:10
For there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Isaiah 26:14
They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased they shall not rise.

How do these verses work into your belief system?


Yes those texts are great and they describe the state of a dead human whether righteous or wicked until the resurrection. I am not saying that there is no enternal life. Jesus is the giver of eternal life (John 10:28). I am just saying that human's do not have an enternal soul. Eternal life is only given as a reward for righteousness and that the reward of the wicked is not enternal life in hell.

Yes those texts are great and they describe the state of a dead human whether righteous or wicked until the resurrection. I am not saying that there is no enternal life. Jesus is the giver of eternal life (John 10:28). I am just saying that human's do not have an enternal soul. Eternal life is only given as a reward for righteousness and that the reward of the wicked is not enternal life in hell.

But according to some of these verses, there will never be a resurrection.

Job 7:9
As the cloud is consumed and vanishes away, so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.

This verse teaches that there is no resurrection at all. Man is "consumed" and "vanishes away" and "shall come up no more."

Job 14:10. 12
But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? ... So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

This one teaches that their will not be any resurrection, at least, "till the heavens be no more". Does that really work with any theology you have ever considered? Isn’t it really just saying that a resurrection will never happen? "They shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."

Isaiah 26:14
They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased they shall not rise.

This verse also teaches that there will not be a resurrection. Again, it says, "they shall not rise."

This is in clear contradiction to many other texts in the Bible. But this is also exactly what the Jewish Sadducee sect believed and taught their people.

Thanks!

He will allow people to what? Question Him?

I said He will allow people who trust Him to have eternity with Him. I trust Him and i have posed questions to Him, thousands of them. But i do not lay allegations against Him and accuse Him of Evil doings. That’s the line you have transgressed. God is longsuffering to people like you But He is not eternally longsuffering. Either you withdraw your allegations against Him or He will harden your heart and use you as a vessel of His wrath. Do you want to be used by God as a vessel of grace or a vessel of wrath? It is up to you.



If God is capable of commanding us to perform immoral acts then how are we to distinguish His commands from those of Satan? How will we ever be able to distinguish His will from Satan's if they both look the same?

Legally executing someone is not murder. God is the ultimate judge perfect in all His decisions. He has the right to give life and take it whenever He likes. And if He chooses to use His followers as agents to carry out His wrath upon offenders then so be it. He can use us or He can use those who are in rebellion against Him, He has used both in the past. You keep on calling God a murderer and you will regret it for eternity. God rightfully carries out wrath upon those who love evil, He has done it in the past and will do it in the future. You don't like that???? Then you side with those who are in rebellion against God and place yourself in a position to justifiably receive his wrath. Eternal wrath in the lake of fire.



If you were to tell me that you do not understand how God could ever have commanded the atrocities that are described in the Bible,

Not atrocities but justifiable judgements.



You do me a great disservice, Sir.

I am not God, nor have I ever thought anything of the kind. You are listening to all of the lies that are telling you all of the things that I am supposed to be.

Say what?



I have always sought God to show me the “truth”. And I still do, even though I have many doubts! I am imperfect and flawed and I am doing the best that I can to figure things out.

Then why do you suppose that you can judge the God of the Bible and declare him guilty? Only God could make such a call. The audacity and pride that you have is astounding. And to think you do not have 100% confidence in your own perfection but still you think your perfect enough to gamble your eternity away by judging God to be evil. Like a fly to beat it’s trying to cool a star going into supernova.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Legally executing someone is not murder. God is the ultimate judge perfect in all His decisions. He has the right to give life and take it whenever He likes. And if He chooses to use His followers as agents to carry out His wrath upon offenders then so be it. He can use us or He can use those who are in rebellion against Him, He has used both in the past. You keep on calling God a murderer and you will regret it for eternity. God rightfully carries out wrath upon those who love evil, He has done it in the past and will do it in the future. You don't like that???? Then you side with those who are in rebellion against God and place yourself in a position to justifiably receive his wrath. Eternal wrath in the lake of fire.

Not atrocities but justifiable judgements.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
You are insane. Your kind of delusions are what perpetuate violence and cultism. I would like to use technology to create an exact replica of your delusions of hell (maybe in a giant orbiting asteroid) and put you in it. You say we are going to hell? For rebelling against your imaginary sky daddy? No. You are going to hell. My very real and technically accurate reproduction of the hell you so love to invoke on the rest of us for not following your mass stupidity. Now all I need is funding for the project.

And you think i am insane?

Have you read your own post?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

He will allow people to what? Question Him?

If God is capable of commanding us to perform immoral acts then how are we to distinguish His commands from those of Satan? How will we ever be able to distinguish His will from Satan's if they both look the same?

If you were to tell me that you do not understand how God could ever have commanded the atrocities that are described in the Bible, I would agree with you. That is what I have been trying to tell you! But I don't remember you saying that before. And perhaps you are not saying that even now! I don’t know?



SetiAlpha,
If you want a more clear loving image of God you might wish to explore some of the eastern religions or perhaps like myself the spiritual beliefs of the ancient egyptians. Far from being "evil" as many