Here's an interesting article, bound to spark some debate.

The author is Oberon Zell (AKA Tim Zell and Otter Zell). Oberon and his wife Morning Glory have been very active in the Pagan community for years. I first heard of them years ago because of their living unicorns. This link is to the Church Of All Worlds (CAW) website - Oberon & Morning Glory were heavily involved in the creation of CAW, if I remember correctly.

<a href="http://www.caw.org/articles/otherpeople.html"> Other People </a>

This article contends there were humans on this planet (from Genesis) before Yaweh created Adam & Eve. It also implies Yaweh was a regional god, not THE God, and so the Bible only applies to those descendants of Adam & Eve.

I'm curious to see what everyone thinks. I'll list my opinion presently.

(edited to fix link, d'oh!)


[This message has been edited by MoonCat (edited August 14, 2000).]

MC,

This is an area of the Bible (Genesis) that I'm particularly interested in right now, and I think that it will prove to be crucial in our understanding of end time events. The Bible indicates that there were other people on the earth, at least when the sons of Adam and Eve went out of their land and into another to marry. Genesis talks about "giants" living at that time, which were men of renown, and they were the nephilum, which were demi-gods basically. They sound like Nordics?? I've read scriptural interpretation that describes Genesis as a recreation of sorts, rather than an initial creation. The author contends that the Bible tells of a time before Satan's fall when he ruled a kingdom on this earth. I haven't read enough about it to really have an opinion.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

I think you have to kind of define human. There were like cro magnon, and neaderthals before Adam and Eve thats for sure. But I have to say that Adam and Eve were the first Biblical humans. This is where God started it all. Maybe the first fully soul and spirit creature even though there are other things that resemble mankind?

"at least when the sons of Adam and Eve went out of their land and into another to marry"

A lot of people feel there was some incest going on at the time. Its the answer to the old "Who did cain marry question?" Adam and Eve lived a long time and undoubtedly had many sons and daughters who intermarried. Later on God said marrying your sister was bad. The remarkable thing is that the time he issued this seems to be around the generation where bad genetic effects would happen if brothers and sisters married each other. So there seems to be a good reason for the rule ;)


From that page

"Elohim is a plural word, including male and female, and should properly be translated "Gods" or "Pantheon.""

Here is the niv text note on Genesis verse 1:1 and the meaning of Elohim. Elohim is plural but the verb is singular, a normal usage in the OT when the reference is to the one true God. The use of this plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality."

page also says:

27 The Gods created humanity in the image of themselves, In the image of the Gods they created them, Male and Female they created them.

Verse 26 reads "let us create." This does not mean the gods created the universe and the Bible teaches polytheism or that it should be translated/intrepreted as such.

Compare and contrast John 1:1 with Genesis 1:1. You will see one possible suggestion as to who this "us" is referring to.

Niv text note gives another solution to the "us" dilemna: "God speaks as the creator king, announcing his crowning work to the members of his heavenly court (see 3:22, 11:7,Isa 6:8, kings 22:19-23, Job 15:8, Jer 23:18)."

The verb for create in Genesis 1:1 tells us who created all things. The verb used has only one subject: God.

I would definatley urge people to do lots of research before they believe stuff on the internet. Even what I am saying now is something you are seeing on the net so test it ;)

As the Bible teaches, "Test Everything. Hold on to that which is good."

I must say that I didn't read anything on that page after I saw that. Maybe they discuss what I brought up later. If so let me know and I'll give it another look.

Peace,
Vinnie

[This message has been edited by ilgwamh (edited August 14, 2000).]

Vinnie,

I contend...I don't think your idea that the sons and daughter of Adam and Eve were inbreeding is valid according to scripture, or according to common sense. The scripture says that they left their home and traveled to the "Land of Nod" to find their wives. That doesn't sound like incest to me. It sounds like there was another place, wherein "other people" dwelt. And, it stands to reason scientifically, that if the human race STARTED OUT by inbreeding, we would have never made it past go.

Also, the word elohim is plural for god, or gods. This does NOT indicate the one true God, or supreme being, as He is indicated with a capital G. Elohim denotes a group of spiritual beings of which God is included, and the angels. How does God interact with humans? Through His angels. It stands to reason that God enlisted the help of His angels in creating humans as well. That does not mean that the "little g's" are our God/Gods, but that they are angels serving the one God, the Almighty Father. It makes sense to me anyway. :)

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

You can go here and check out the NAS Hebrew Lexicon and see what actual definitions of the word: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=0430&version=nas

NAS Word Usage - Total: 2604
divine 1, divine being 1, exceedingly 1, God 2326, god 45, God's 14, goddess 2, godly 1, gods 204, great 2, judges 3, mighty 2, rulers 1, shrine* 1

As I said earlier "The niv (the people who actually translated the Bible) text note on Genesis verse 1:1 and the meaning of Elohim. Elohim is plural but the verb is singular, a normal usage in the OT when the reference is to the one true God. The use of this plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality."

The verb for create in Genesis 1:1 is bara. It is creating that only God can do. The subject of this verb is always God. Lets look at some more verses:

1 Samuel 2:8
"He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap; he seats them with princes and has them inherit a throne of honor. "For the foundations of the earth are the LORD's; upon them he has set the world."

1 Chronicles 16:26
"For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the LORD made the heavens."

Job 9:8
"He alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea."

Psalms 24:1
"The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it;"

Psalm 89:11-12
"The heavens are yours, and yours also the earth; you founded the world and all that is in it. You created the north and the south;"

Psalm 146:5
"The Maker of heaven and earth, the sea, and everything in them-- the LORD, who remains faithful forever."

Psalm 148:2-5
"Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his heavenly hosts. 3 Praise him, sun and moon, praise him, all you shining stars. 4 Praise him, you highest heavens and you waters above the skies.5 Let them praise the name of the LORD, for he commanded and they were created".

Isaiah 37:16
"O LORD Almighty, God of Israel, enthroned between the cherubim, you alone are God over all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth."

Isaiah 44:24
"This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,"

Isaiah 45:12
"It is I who made the earth and created mankind upon it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts."

Romans 11:36
"For from him [God] and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen."

Ephesians 3:9
"and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things."

Revelations 4:11
"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."

Revelations 10:6
"And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay!""

It is clear that God is the only creator of things. Hugh Ross tells us that "The Bible teaches that God alone, not Satan or any other created being, has the power to create and destroy what God creates." (The Genesis Question pg 25) It was God who created all things. Now lets look at some more scripture.

1 Corinthians 8:6
"yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

All things came through Jesus Christ. Since only God creates this is clearly evidence for the Trinity.

John 1:1-3
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

The "him" is referring to Jesus (the word). Jesus created all things. Phrophets and angels did not create the universe thus Jesus is more than a phrophet and more than an angel. God created all things but Jesus was around with God in the beginning. It also says that "the word was God." Notice how it refers to Jesus as being God in the past sense. This is very important in understanding those hard to understand verses that seem anti-trinity which we will cover later.

Hebrews 1:1-14
"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"? 6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." 7 In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire." 8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy." 10 He also says, "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. 12 You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end." 13 To which of the angels did God ever say, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"? 14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?"

What does Hebrews chapter 1 tell us? The universe was made through Jesus. Jesus is an exact representation of the Father. He is superior to the angels "For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father?" Also the angels are to "worship him" That whole chapter proclaims the Trinity from beginning to end and it clearly dismisses any irrational ideas about Jesus being an angel or a phrophet as most cult groups would label Him.
C.S. Lewis summed up the situation very well in his appeal to the "trilemna" in 'Mere Christianity' on page 56.

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a good moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic-on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg-or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great moral teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

The idea of Jesus just being an angel or a phrophet is not even an option up above. But cult groups like Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons reject Christ's deity. Muslim's view Jesus as just a phrophet. I am going to show that scripture makes it abundantly clear who Jesus is. This paper assumes divine authorship of scripture and Biblical inerrancy, in accordance with the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5948/csbe.htm), for all 66 books of the Bible. Several verses of scripture refer to God with both singular and plural pronouns.

Genesis 1:26
"Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,"

Genesis 3:22
"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us,"

Who does "us" and "our" refer to? Not angels thats for sure. Hugh Ross, in 'Beyond the Cosmos' on pg 94 tells us that, "The Bible declares emphatically that there is only one Savior, one Creator, one Redeemer, and one Resurrectionist, and yet it identifies two or three members of the godhead as that one Savior, Redeemer, Creator, and Resurrectionist. The one name God assigns to Himself is the unpronounceable YHWH. In one paragraph of scripture, both God the Father and God the Son lay claim to this name."

It could be God pronouncing his glorious work to his heavenly court as the Niv text not said but it is not Angels or demons or other "gods" creating the universe.

"I contend...I don't think your idea that the sons and daughter of Adam and Eve were inbreeding is valid according to scripture, or according to common sense. The scripture says that they left their home and traveled to the "Land of Nod" to find their wives. That doesn't sound like incest to me. It sounds like there was another place, wherein "other people" dwelt. And, it stands to reason scientifically, that if the human race STARTED OUT by inbreeding, we would have never made it past go."

I contend... :)


You hit part to of the famous "finding a wife for cain" question right on the head. As the objection to the Bible goes, not only was there no one for Cain to marry but there apparently was an entire city in existence!!! :eek:

"Resolving the Population Problem

The first step in the solution of this problem is to recognize that Adam and Eve had many more children than Cain, Abel, and Seth. Genesis 5:4 says that "after Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years," and it also tells us that "he had other sons and daughters." In fact, the genealogy of Genesis 5 records that every descendant of Adam down to Lamech had "other sons and daughters" These other sons and daughters were born to men even older than 187 years. Considering the long life spans recorded in Genesis 5 (which I take seriously based on evidences described in Facts & Faith, v.5, no.2, pp. 4-5) and assuming that couples remained reproductive for about half their lifetime, the possibility existed for a veritable population explosion. In fact, the world's population could have approached a few billion by the time of Adam's death at the age of 930 (see table)."

quote from Hugh Ross :http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/cainswife.html

That page also talks about the incest problem.

The Sons of God and the Nephilim guys (sp?) are a different topic entirely though. Very interseting to discuss might I add.

Peace,
Vinnie

MoonCat,

I loved it! It put a whole new spin on Genesis, and was told in a very amusing way. Thanks for sharing that.

------------------
An ye harm none, do what ye will.

Dag Vinnie, all that for my little contention? Listen, you do know I understand that there is one true God right? And that He's not just an angel right? That's not what I'm saying at all. The Bible says that God created the universe and the earth and the angels and man yes. But it doesn't say how he created man specifically, and it doesn't say that He did not enlist the help of angels. It's not such a strange idea...I'm not sure why you think it is. What are angels? They are God's messengers to us humans right? Liasons of sorts. They influence us, and intervene on God's behalf, of God's will. It's not such a stretch when you think about it.

Vinnie, weren't Cain and Abel Adam and Eve's FIRST sons? Were they there first children? I'm asking sincerely...I always assumed they were. Now if they were, knowing what I know about men, Adam and Eve could live and multiply for 100,000 years, but it would have only taken Cain and Abel about 15 or 16 to want to get themselves a wife, so I'm not sure if I see how their life spans are relevant.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Didn't one kill the other...not over a woman, but for the love of God? Ironic.

------------------
It's all very large.

Hi Bowser! Oooooooh yea, the love of God makes someone kill their brother...nice one...NOT...try jealousy...which is a sin, of course.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Hey Lori,

"...try jealousy..."

Jealousy because he thought God loved his brother more than God loved him?

------------------
It's all very large.

Yea, and????? Pretty stupid of Cain, huh? God loves everyone the same!!!!! And the moral of the story...jealousy makes people do bad, stupid, hurtful things. The end.

------------------
You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

Hey bowser, that whole Cain Abel thing is like religion vs relationship. Cain offered his sacrifice as a mere formality (religion)while Abel did it because of faith (relationship). Check out Hebrews 11:4:

"By faith Abel offered a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings."

check out 1 John 3:12 as well.

"Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous."

The Bible answers the questions you asked. Sometimes we need to just do a little research to find them ;)

"Listen, you do know I understand that there is one true God right? And that He's not just an angel right?"

Yep, I know that :) More on the other stuff later. I'm going to have to strike up a convo with you on the Nephilim as I have some info you might find interesting. Could relate to demons and ufo type stuff somehow... But it appears as if they (nephilim) were not human.

Peace,
Vinnie

ilgwamh,

Thank you, Man! Hey, that was a very lucid thought, and I appreciate it. Don't spoil it with UFO stories <img src = "http://www.exosci.com/ubb/icons/icon12.gif">



------------------
It's all very large.