Just a Quick Question for the Bible Bashers...

I am just wondering if there is any remote form of prophecy in the OT foretelling the coming of Jesus Christ?

If not ..why not?
Such a big event...should have been noted.
Surely God would have told one of his deciples.

Cheers
RazZ:cool:

razz,

Why didn't you just do a search? Lots of sites come up. Here's one. I'm really too tired to look at it very closely myself right now but it seems to answer your question.

http://www.wwcw.org/q-prophecy.html

So i visited the link... are these people that wrote of the lords commings all writing from before christs birth? i mean are they all old testiment writings that were submitted before jesus was born and not after, i found on many occassions texts that were written as eye witness acounts in the bible were in fact hearsay written anything up to a few hundred years after the fact.

Any one can do that.

If they all are without doubt genuine first hand accounts then cool thanks fer answering my Question.

cheers
RazZ

A messiah is metioned. People of the Jewish faith have always contended that this individual is not Jesus. They are still waiting for their messiah. Some in the christian faith are also waiting for a reincarnation/messiah. I remember hearing some prophecy of a a sacrificed animal in a red church. It is a mixed up situation.

People are always waiting for someone or something that will bring meaning to their life. Think of it like this: a person will get his fix on marijuana for a while. Sometimes this person hears of other, more effective drugs. They will move into a chain of this behavior until they die or are finally disillusioined and suitably humiliated. At this point they are inclined to fill the void with cigarettes. This is the rational behind those with the need to have something greater in their life. Some will also carry this into a more unhealthy pursuit, such as looking for a messiah.

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son

I like that idea: a virgin baring child. I wonder about the athors sense of humor. The trick was to give a suitably impossible task. Of course the author did not count on Joseph and Mary, conman and wife. What was abnormal about jesus? Unless you believe the faith healing crap, which others also claim to do, nothing. The guy died. That was his major accomplishment. He even died a cowards death. Pathetic.

blonde_cupid, sorry to disappoint you but that site seems filled with vague descriptions. If I told you that the messiah was dark-skinned, from Judea, and the son of a virgin, that would be the end of the old testiment speculation. And you would say that Jesus filled these aspects. But you would not include the fact that as a good Jewish family Mary and Joseph would also know these facts.

More interestingly it would seem that a larger body of evidence supporting the conman aspect would be in keeping with current discoveries. Jesus was by all acounts, not born in Bethlehem.

But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

Why do scholars believe Jesus was not born in this place? Subtle clues like his nickname: Jesus of Nazareth. All these clues coupled with his background in carpentry, would eliminate the possibility of his birth residing in Bethlehem. Nazareth seems to be the most logical place. According to your book this would disqualify him as a messiah.

All of this has a larger implication. If the basis of Christianity is that of a lie, why should we believe anything else?

Just to throw in my 2 cents.....Biblical scholars say that in the days the prophecy of the birth of the Messiah was written, the word we translated in to "virgin" was commonly used to refer to a "young woman". Also if we look at the practices of the sacrifices that were exceptable for the priests to use (Jesus was after all to be the final and perfect sacrifice)...it was the first born male lamb that opened the womb...not lambs born of virgins. It is highly possible that the virgin issue was also some misunderstanding that got lost up in the translations and language and cultural changes.
Now I shall stand back and wait to get flamed for mentioning that.:)

razz,

Isaiah 7:14 and Micah 5:2 are dated in the 8th Century BC.

Zechariah is dated before the 6th Century BC.

Genesis is dated no later than 1500 BC.

The Book of Psalms is comprised of writings from various authors on various dates, with none being dated later than 100 BC.

*Originally posted by Taken
Now I shall stand back and wait to get flamed for mentioning that.*

Nah, you're just completely confused.
That's what happens when you wander off, and get caught in some thornbush, and wander off some more and get caught in a briarpatch, and wander some more and fall off a cliff.

BC, it is possible that razz was quoting some atheist mythology to counteract what he sees as religious mythology.

Teg,

***Jesus was by all acounts, not born in Bethlehem.


quote:
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But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Why do scholars believe Jesus was not born in this place? Subtle clues like his nickname: Jesus of Nazareth. All these clues coupled with his background in carpentry, would eliminate the possibility of his birth residing in Bethlehem. Nazareth seems to be the most logical place. According to your book this would disqualify him as a messiah.

All of this has a larger implication. If the basis of Christianity is that of a lie, why should we believe anything else?***

What scholars? This same question was asked by some who, in Jesus' lifetime, were familiar with the Messianic prophecies. (Note: They were familiar with those prophecies because those prophecies were made prior to Jesus' life.) Anyway, some people did not understand why the one who was being called the Messiah of the prophecies was also being called Jesus of Nazareth when the scriptures said that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.

As a matter of fact, you will find that the Bible tells how Jesus was born in Bethlehem and why his family later moved to Nazareth.

Both early biblical and non-biblical sources prophecied signs and the place of the birth of the Messiah. Some of those who followed astrology, the Maji, recognized the astrological sign that the Messiah had been born and went to the area of Jerusalem asking to see the newborn King of the Jews. Herod, the reigning king, was greatly disturbed by what he heard and asked those who knew the scriptures where the Messiah was to be born. They told him that the place was Bethlehem.

Herod, who felt threatened by the birth of this infant, asked the Maji to go find the infant and bring him back so that Herod could pay homage to the newborn King. What Herod really wanted to do was kill the baby and eliminate the threat. The Maji were onto Herod's real motives so, after they visited and paid homage to the baby in Bethlehem themselves, they went back to where they came from without doing what Herod had asked.

When Herod realized that he had been betrayed by the Maji, he initiated a search and destroy mission - the massacre of all baby boys under the age of two in the area of Bethlehem - in the hopes of ensuring that the Messiah would be among the murdered babies. However, having learned of Herod's mission, Jesus' family left the area of Bethlehem and resided in Egypt until Herod died. After the death of Herod, Jesus' family was on their way back to the area of Jerusalem until they learned that Herod's son was ruling in place of his father. Fearing that their son would still not be safe under the reign of Herod's son, Jesus' family moved to Nazareth. Thereafter, Jesus was referred to as a Nazorean.

Isn't it amazing how the same questions which you ask today were asked, answered and recorded thousands of years ago in the Bible? Kind of makes you think that the author knew that you would be asking these questions someday, huh?

P.S. - Please pass this information along to the scholars. Thanks.

Taken,


***Biblical scholars say that in the days the prophecy of the birth of the Messiah was written, the word we translated in to "virgin" was commonly used to refer to a "young woman"...

It is highly possible that the virgin issue was also some misunderstanding that got lost up in the translations and language and cultural changes.***

How would one construe the prophecy of a "young woman" giving birth as a sign that it was the Messiah?

The prophecies of His birth provided many other details to watch for. John the Baptist also foretold Him and bore witness to Him. (Many believe was Elijah returned) Or it is possible that Elijah being a prophet took in to consideration the word he used and knew the meaning of it would be changed by the time of the birth.
It is also interesting to note that Jesus' followers realized Him as the Messiah with out Him ever haveing told them who He was.
I myself would like to believe if we stood in the precense of such a direct connection to God that we would have atleast a "feeling" that we were, just as they did. Jesus made it very very clear in His teaching that He was in fact a MAN. His comeing as a man with no use of powers beyond what we all have the ability to ascertain was criticle to the ministry He brought us. How could He truely bare the same burdens and temptations and pain of a man if He was anything other than 100% flesh and blood?

He also made it clear that His ability to heal people, perform variouse miracles and commune with God, His father, was no more or no less than we all are able to do because we are all children of God and as our Father He wants only for our good if we just come to Him. Jesus said we had no need of an intercesor...we can come bodly before the throne...that we giving good things to our children and loveing them, how much more would our Father God being perfect not do the same for us.

*Originally posted by Taken
His comeing as a man with no use of powers beyond what we all have the ability to ascertain was criticle to the ministry He brought us.*

I get it, you've never heard of the Holy Spirit.

And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
(Mark 1:10, KJV).

Jesus had no powers at all before he was baptized.
After he was baptized, he had the same powers as anyone else who is also baptized in the Spirit...

For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
(1 Corinthians 12:8-10, KJV).

*He also made it clear that His ability to heal people, perform variouse miracles and commune with God, His father, was no more or no less than we all are able to do because we are all children of God and as our Father He wants only for our good if we just come to Him.*

He didn't say anything like that at all.
He said you have to ask for the Holy Spirit.

*Jesus said we had no need of an intercesor...we can come bodly before the throne...that we giving good things to our children and loveing them, how much more would our Father God being perfect not do the same for us. *

Yes, if you ask.

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
(Luke 11:13, KJV).

"His comeing as a man with no use of powers beyond what we all have the """""ability to ascertain"""""""""

And that goes against what you just said how?

Nit pick...nag...nag...whine....whine...whine...you are worse than a woman! :O)

I've got news for you.

You don't have the ability to "ascertain" or obtain the powers of the Holy Spirit.
You get them only by asking for, and believing, and that thing you said you were too holy for, expecting to get them.

Oh so prayer for and acceptance of the Holy Spirit is not a method of ascertaining it? Where in these legistics does the problem lay? Hmmm... you are right about my being confused...when it comes to your methods of reasoning I certainly am!
I EXPECT the promises of God to be true...but I tend not to put the self-fufilling, self-gain spin on them that you do.

You count your treasure among things of this earth. I have seen the best this earthly existance has to offer and called me the brat among Gods children, I am not impressed...I want more than wordly comfort and possesions, I want something more spiritually fullfilling. Satisfying the physical being serves to leave one hungry for more and more like an addict getting a fix...always wanting but never full. I want to be nearer to my Father, I want the completeness of His love and grace, I want my treasures beyond my physical existance in a realm and place where there is not rust or rot. :)

*Originally posted by Taken
I EXPECT the promises of God to be true...but I tend not to put the self-fufilling, self-gain spin on them that you do.*

In other words, you don't really expect them.
I do, though.

Thus, when I see...

The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it.
(Proverbs 10:22, KJV).

I know I'm rich.
You aren't as self-serving you say, so I guess that verse makes you think of how nice it would be.

*You count your treasure among things of this earth.*

Well, I have to, because I need that treasure to buy the gold tried in the fire.

*I have seen the best this earthly existance has to offer*

Sure you have.

*I want my treasures beyond my physical existance in a realm and place where there is not rust or rot.*

How are you going to get them there?

The GOLD refined by fire was to be US...the spirits refined and made holy in the eyes of God. You really are that shallow aren't you? You think you will need money to buy treasure THERE? What kind of cult are you from? Your TRUE colors are finally comeing out. That I count as a good thing among these unbelievers. A child of darkness can not stand in the light....you are melting Tony.

Luke 18:9 And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt:
Luke 18:10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
Luke 18:11 "The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
Luke 18:12 'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'
Luke 18:13 "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'
Luke 18:14 "I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

*Originally posted by Taken
The GOLD refined by fire was to be US...the spirits refined and made holy in the eyes of God.*

Yes, but you have failed to explain how we are supposed to BUY that.

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
(Revelation 3:18, KJV).

If you aren't faithful with ordinary gold, you won't get the true gold.

If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
(Luke 16:11, KJV).

Here's how it's done...

Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
(Luke 12:33, KJV).

Some people have the idea that one ends up poor as a result of doing that, and other people have the idea that if you're going to give it all away anyway, then why bother getting much?

The fact is that nobody ends up poor by giving it away.

He that giveth unto the poor shall not lack:...
(Proverbs 28:27, KJV).

*You really are that shallow aren't you?*

Nope.

*You think you will need money to buy treasure THERE?*

Fraid so.
What you're overlooking is that you don't get to buy it THERE, you buy it HERE, so that it gets THERE when you do.

Atheists believe that old canard "you can't take it with you," mainly because they have no choice.
Christians, on the other hand, have no excuse to believe crap like that, because we are taking it with us.
Make sure you set aside plenty, since you are going to be there a long time.
No point in being rich here, and poor there.

*What kind of cult are you from?*

It's a thing called Christianity, perhaps you're unfamiliar with it.

* A child of darkness can not stand in the light....you are melting Tony. *

We'll see.

*everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.*

You are aware of that verse and you do the things you do?
I humble myself under the mighty hand of God by deferring to his wisdom, namely the scriptures.
You seem to think that your own thoughts count for something.

THE GOAL: The Kingdom of Heaven...to get it we SEEK RIGHTEOUSNESS:


Matt 6:31 "Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'
Matt 6:32 "For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
Matt 6:33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

WHAT RIGHTEOUSNESS IS and ISN'T:


Rom 14:17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
1 Tim 6:11 But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness.
2 Tim 2:22 Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.
1 Tim 3:3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
1 Tim 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
2 Tim 3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
Heb 13:5 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have
James 3:18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace
Acts 8:20 But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!

THE WARNING:

2 Tim 3:1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2 Tim 3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2 Tim 3:3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
2 Tim 3:4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2 Tim 3:5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.
2 Tim 3:6 For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses,
2 Tim 3:7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Tim 3:8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.
2 Tim 3:9 But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes's and Jambres's folly was also.
2 Tim 3:10 Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance,
2 Tim 3:11 persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me!
2 Tim 3:12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.
2 Tim 3:13 But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.


THE ACTUALL STATEMENT OF THE VERSE YOU ARE TRYING TO TWIST!!!!!
Rev 3:15 'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev 3:17 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Rev 3:19 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.


What is the GOLD and WHITE ROBE and how do we get it from GOD:

Job 23:10 But He knows the way that I take [He has concern for it, appreciates, and pays attention to it]. When He has tried me, I shall come forth as refined gold [pure and luminous]. [Ps. 17:3; 66:10; James 1:12.]
Ps 66:10 For You, O God, have proved us; You have tried us as silver is tried, refined, and purified
Is 48:10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried and chosen you in the furnace of affliction
Dan 12:10 Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be tried, smelted, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the teachers and those who are wise shall understand.
Zech 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined and will test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will hear and answer them. I will say, It is My people; and they will say, The Lord is my God.

Rev 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
22 Rev 7:14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb
Rev 3:4 'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
15 Rev 3:5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.



THE TRUTH:

Is 55:1 "Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters;
And you who have no money come, buy and eat.
Come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without cost.

1 Pet 1:7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

As a matter of fact, you will find that the Bible tells how Jesus was born in Bethlehem and why his family later moved to Nazareth.

Check your sources. Theologians and historians alike agree on this final supposition.

Both early biblical and non-biblical sources prophecied signs and the place of the birth of the Messiah. Some of those who followed astrology, the Maji, recognized the astrological sign that the Messiah had been born and went to the area of Jerusalem asking to see the newborn King of the Jews. Herod, the reigning king, was greatly disturbed by what he heard and asked those who knew the scriptures where the Messiah was to be born. They told him that the place was Bethlehem.

Herod, who felt threatened by the birth of this infant, asked the Maji to go find the infant and bring him back so that Herod could pay homage to the newborn King. What Herod really wanted to do was kill the baby and eliminate the threat. The Maji were onto Herod's real motives so, after they visited and paid homage to the baby in Bethlehem themselves, they went back to where they came from without doing what Herod had asked.

When Herod realized that he had been betrayed by the Maji, he initiated a search and destroy mission - the massacre of all baby boys under the age of two in the area of Bethlehem - in the hopes of ensuring that the Messiah would be among the murdered babies. However, having learned of Herod's mission, Jesus' family left the area of Bethlehem and resided in Egypt until Herod died. After the death of Herod, Jesus' family was on their way back to the area of Jerusalem until they learned that Herod's son was ruling in place of his father. Fearing that their son would still not be safe under the reign of Herod's son, Jesus' family moved to Nazareth. Thereafter, Jesus was referred to as a Nazorean.

That means nothing. I am referring to a report following the possible details of any such "Jesus's" life. It may be too mainstream for your tastes, but you should look into it. It was aired a couple years ago on ABC. Of course most of their research is common knowledge. That your source says that they moved would not be surprising. What is easier to believe, that they moved or they were already there? The word "of" has a very specific meaning. It is always based upon a point of origin. If they had moved he would instead be "of Bethlehem." I know that an entire life of dogma is a hard bit of programming from which to release.

How would one construe the prophecy of a "young woman" giving birth as a sign that it was the Messiah?

That would actually make sense. All of the prophecies were vague and yet another reference of that nature would fit in with the entirity of the piece.

The Book of Psalms is comprised of writings from various authors on various dates, with none being dated later than 100 BC.

It doesn't matter. Because they were vague they didn't need to be constructed afterword. Heck, think about this: Person A makes prophecy; Person B reads prophecy. Person B says: hey I could be construed as that prophecy. Person B becomes a part of a cult and runs around until he creates his own cult. Person B and 10-15 people attack a moneychanger. Person B is chased down and executed. Well at least you say that said actions prove person B to be a messiah. It's too bad that this looks to me like a trouble maker executed for his crimes. That bursts that theory. He was just another Jew dead on a cross.

Taken:

Hey, not bad.

"Is 55:1 "Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters;
And you who have no money come, buy and eat.
Come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without cost. "

So, how would you end up having no money?
You said your husband was making lots.

Well, I'll tell you: you'll have to give it away just like I said.

Well what ever I haven't given away by the time I die won't be a problem...since I can't take it with me. :bugeye:

Well, I can take mine with me; I'll just send it ahead.

But he shall receive an hundredfold NOW IN THIS TIME, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; AND in the world to come eternal life.
(Mark 10:30, KJV).

So now you are dealing in what...money laundering? Swiss bank accounts?
Your notions get more and more absurd the further you go with them.

Should we believe in OT and NT both or just the NT?. Just a question. And if NT only then why?.

The OT is just a book of fairy tales. NT has some interesting stories, with some hypocritical idealism littered in there. I had to read OT in my English class!:(
Basically it like those nursery rhymes, but without the rhyming or elaborate plots. And God did make the world. And then Sampson did kill a bunch of people. And Moses did run off into the mountains. And David did slay Goliath. That is a very accurate condensed version. I can see some scant details that allow confidence in NT, but OT is horrible.

*Originally posted by Taken
So now you are dealing in what...money laundering? Swiss bank accounts?
Your notions get more and more absurd the further you go with them. *

You just won't quit mocking God, will you?

*Originally posted by Markx
Should we believe in OT and NT both or just the NT?. Just a question. And if NT only then why?*

We can believe in both, because both actually exist.

*Originally posted by Teg
Basically it like those nursery rhymes, but without the rhyming or elaborate plots.*

Of course, as we all know, those nursery rhymes have some historical meaning but only to those who know about it.
Apparently, you're one of the few who don't know the historical background of nursery rhymes.

I see the Old Testament as a history. A collection of events and details thru which we can begin to see how things worked and how they progressed. It is for developing understanding and wisdom. That opinion varies by person...to an Isrealite person it is understandably far more than that. The New Testament is the crux of Life...a precise detailed guide to the meaning. And of course most importantly it is the fullfillment of the greatest promise we have from God in the birth and death of Jesus. It is a guide for life, living a spiritual life, a call for humanitarian endevor and the recalling of all of Gods children to return to what we are supposed to be.

I guess I see it as the OT is the "how" we got where we are and the NT is the "why" we are here.

*Originally posted by Taken
I see the Old Testament as a history.*

You have got to be the most antichristian "Christian" I've ever run across, except for liberals.

Since Jesus fulfilled the Law which is in the OT, do you think it is possible that Jesus didn't come to fulfil a "history?"
There might actually be something to the old TESTAMENT, since there is a new TESTAMENT to replace it.

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
(Hebrews 9:15-17, KJV).

Originally posted by tony1
*Originally posted by Taken
I see the Old Testament as a history.*

You have got to be the most antichristian "Christian" I've ever run across, except for liberals.

Since Jesus fulfilled the Law which is in the OT, do you think it is possible that Jesus didn't come to fulfil a "history?"
There might actually be something to the old TESTAMENT, since there is a new TESTAMENT to replace it.

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
(Hebrews 9:15-17, KJV).


So tony do you beleive that Jesus was here to fullfill the law of old testament?.

*Originally posted by Markx
So tony do you beleive that Jesus was here to fullfill the law of old testament?. *

Yes, and I can even quote myself from my last post...

"Since Jesus fulfilled the Law which is in the OT"

Of course, as we all know, those nursery rhymes have some historical meaning but only to those who know about it.

What is the historical meaning to a woman living in a shoe? Abstract interpretation is the only refuge this idea. Abstract interpretation is also a good waste of time. For evidence of this just read Freud. How far his interpretations go are rediculous.

[Originally posted by tony1
*Originally posted by Markx
So tony do you beleive that Jesus was here to fullfill the law of old testament?. *

Yes, and I can even quote myself from my last post...

"Since Jesus fulfilled the Law which is in the OT"

The Ten Commandments

(Exodus 12: 1-17 & Deuteronomy 5: 6-21)

1. Thou shall not take any God except one God.

2. Thou shall make no image of God.

3. Thou shall not use God's name in vain.

4. Thou shall honor thymother and father.

5. Thou shall not steal.

6. Thou shall not lie or give false testimony.

7. Thou shall not kill.

8. Thou shall not commit adultery.

9. Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife or possessions.

10. Thou shall keep the Sabbath holy.


Do you recognize these? aren't they ten commandments?. So jesus was here to full fill them??


"Think not that I am come to destroy the Law of the prophets: I am come not to destroy, but to fulfill (the Law). For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, one Jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:1718).


Didn't jesus said that??........If he did then why doesn't any one follow OT any more???



Let give give you one little example,


In the book of Leviticus, Chapter 11, v. 7, it is recorded that God declares the pig to be unclean for believers. Then, in verse 8, God says: ‘You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you’. This command is repeated in Deuteronomy 14; 7-8. Then, in Isaiah 65:2-4, and 66:17, God issues a stern warning against those who eat pork.


Some people are aware of this prohibition from God, but they say that they can eat pork because St. Paul said that all food is clean in his letter to the Romans 14:20. St. Paul said this because he believed (as he wrote in his letter to the Ephesians 2:14-15) that Jesus had abolished the Law with all its commandments and regulations. He seems, however, to have misunderstood what he heard from Jesus.


In the Gospel According to Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus is reported to have said quite the contrary, as follows: ‘Do not think that I have come to abolish the law…’. Jesus then went on in that passage (in verse 19) to denounce anyone who would break the smallest commandment and teach others likewise. He also praised his true followers who will practice and teach even the smallest commandments. One of the commandments, as you cas see, is to stay away from pork.


This is why the true followers of Jesus, holding on to his teachings, did not let unclean food such as pork enter their mouths, so that Peter, the chief disciple, said: "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean”
(Acts of the Apostles, ch. 10, and v.14)


Five chapters later in the Acts of the Apostles, 15:29, you will find that the original disciples still differentiate between clean and unclean foods, and this time, Paul is in agreement with them. Six chapters later, in ch, 21, v. 25, their decision to impose food regulations on believers is mentioned without regret, and this time Paul is challenged to prove that he is in agreement with them; and he demonstrated his full agreement with them.

Now can you deny all that?? How many Christians are still following these.

Teg,

***I am referring to a report following the possible details of any such "Jesus's" life. It may be too mainstream for your tastes, but you should look into it. It was aired a couple years ago on ABC.***

Uh, if you could be a little more specific, I'd be happy to look into it, Teg...???


***Of course most of their research is common knowledge.***

Whose research???


***What is easier to believe, that they moved or they were already there?***

In context, given that the king ordered the killing of any child who was Jesus' age and born in Bethlehem, I'd say it's easier to believe that the parents moved to protect their child's life, Teg.

*Originally posted by Teg
What is the historical meaning to a woman living in a shoe?*

I can't remember the three historical meanings I've heard for that, however the metaphorical meaning is clear.

It's like you thinking that science and logic is all there is, but you are living in a shoe, i.e. all your intelligence is at the level of a foot.

*Originally posted by Markx
Do you recognize these? aren't they ten commandments?. So jesus was here to full fill them??*

Yes. Yes. Yes.

*If he did then why doesn't any one follow OT any more???*

Because Jesus fulfilled the OT law.

* ‘Do not think that I have come to abolish the law…’.
...
Now can you deny all that?? How many Christians are still following these. *

You don't seem to be aware of what fulfil means.