This article makes some interesting points...

The Official Version Of 9/11 Is A Hoax
by John Kaminski

skylax@comcast.net
3-22-03

Opposed by everyone in the world who was not bought off, the illegal invasion of Iraq was undertaken for many reasons - the imminent replacement of the dollar by the euro as the world's primary currency, the tempting lure of untapped oil reserves, the desire to consolidate U.S./Israeli military hegemony over a strategically vital region - but the most important reason was to further obscure questions about the awesome deception staged by the American government that has come to be known as 9/11.

9/11 was a hoax. This is no longer a wild conspiracy assertion; it is a fact, supported by thousands of other verifiable facts, foremost of which are:

- The attacks of 9/11 COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED without the willful failure of the American defense system. In Washington, Air Force pilots demanded to fly but were ordered to stand down. Yet instead of prosecuting the president and military leaders for this unprecedented dereliction of duty, military leaders were promoted and the president was praised for presiding over a defense system that suspiciously failed the most crucial test in its history. None of the deaths would have happened without the deliberate unplugging of America's air defenses.

Planes that lose contact with control towers are usually intercepted by fighter jets inside of ten minutes, as the incident with the golfer's plane a few months earlier so clearly demonstrated. Yet on 9/11, the jetliners that struck New York were allowed to proceed unmolested for more than a half-hour, and the plane that supposedly crashed in Washington was not intercepted for more than an hour and forty minutes after it was widely known that four planes had been hijacked. more... (http://www.rense.com/general36/hoax.htm)

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can u back up ur argument with links to all the assertions? is there any other article/s that corroborate with this one?
interesting nonetheless...

Well, here's a variant on the theme, the the Government story has other alternatives:

Don't know if you are allowed to post the whole thing. Am assuming that you are, but if you aren't, can a mod please let me know and I will edit.The Jones Report.
Interview with Stanley Hilton, March 11, 2003.

AJ: He has a busy schedule. He’s been in court, all last week and all this week. We had him on about a year ago. He’s Stanley Hilton. He was brutally attacked by the big government pimps Hannity and Colmes. He was a senior advisor for Bob Dole, counsel for Bob Dole and others in the Republican Party. He’s an expert on government-sponsored terrorism and has written a book about it, throughout history. And he now has new revelations never before revealed from his depositions of witnesses involved in and around 9/11. He represents over 400 of the victims of 9/11’s families and he has been given almost no attention. While some of the other groups headed by well-known PR bureaucrats, we’ve had them on the show, as well, are trying to suppress this information. Joining us is Stanley Hilton. We are honored to have you on the show Stanley.

SH: Glad to be here.

AJ: Tell us just a little bit about yourself, your lawsuit, recap what we covered last year and in the last year. Tell us what’s developed with the lawsuit and the new revelations that you told me about on the phone.

SH: Well, we filed the lawsuit last May against Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and several other of the rest of the terrorists that run the U.S. government for complicity in causing and also in aiding and abetting the 9/11 attacks, in order to promote their political agenda. And, we are in the process, you know these lawsuits, they come and they go in terms of level of activity. And most of it is done, you know, in confidential, called discovery, litigation that is depositions under oath, battles in court to get documents. We are facing very strong resistance from the government. They are claiming national security over everything. They claim they don’t want to release documents, etc. But I represent the people who were victimized by what the government did. I’m also challenging the constitutionality of the so-called USA PATRIOT Act, they call it; the anti-patriot act is what I call it. And Patriot Act I and II, with II in the wings, which the government plans to introduce this year, which will be even more severe than Patriot Act I. And this new one, Patriot Act II, they are going to give Bush the right to declare any American citizen a “enemy combatant” arbitrarily. And then take away your citizenship. This will give the government the power to literally strip any American of citizenship if Bush says you’re an enemy combatant, ie: political opponent of the government. So anyway , we saw some very interesting documents and memoranda, including several of those advisors around Bush, namely Wolfowitz, Wormser, Feith, Perle, the rest of them. And they actually wrote these memos several months before 9/11, in which they fervently wished for a “Pearl Harbor type incident” to give them the shock value that would enable them to ramp through their agenda. more... (http://www.prisonplanet.com/jones_report_031403_hilton.html)

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thanks... that's quite disturbing...

just surfin around lookin for more info.. i stumbled upon this site.... now this guy is really gone bonkers.. but hey, check it out for urself.

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/wtc/index02.htm

good post..i have little doubt that this
is close to the truth behind everything
thats happening.
The sad thing is- if you state the above case
to people that dislike what's going on-they
will surely question your sanity, or just shut
down and tell you your dead wrong and paraniod.
I hope that i am.
.
I've always feel that I have to draw a line when
a conversation gets to the "New World Order" and
how Clinton and Bush are puppets of the same group.

If everything above is true- you can bet that someone is
reading our posts, checking backgrounds, and making
a list.
um..i don't think there is a smiley icon for "paraniod".

scoindian,
that is wild stuff, indeed!
I raises the question-
is Ronnie James Dio a free mason?

Sycoindian, Your link was interesting...apart from that...

The first point of interest for me, is whether or not this case makes it anywhere.

The second point of interest is the fact that Vreeland is dead.

The third point of interest, which I didn't put up, is this. Flight 800: Breakthrough!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: March 13, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com


One cannot underestimate the impact of what has just transpired in James and Elizabeth Sanderses' ongoing civil suit against the federal government and seven named individuals. The case number is federal EDNY, #01-CV-5447 JS.

The United States government has declined to respond to the Sanderses' summary judgment motion – "Rule 56.1 Statement." Incredibly, by so declining, U.S. Attorney Kevin Cleary has conceded that the Sanderses' 32 damning charges against his clients cannot be rebutted.

In so conceding, the Justice Department tacitly acknowledges that, yes, the TWA Flight 800 investigation has been corrupted and, no, we are not prepared to contest this fact.

In sum, Cleary has thrown in the towel on a case that ranks among the most egregious violations of a reporter's constitutional rights in the history of American journalism.

From the beginning, the story of TWA Flight 800, the one that James Sanders chronicled, has been a story of humanity betrayed – none more so than the 230 good souls aboard that doomed plane. more... (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31495) IMO, all three are linked.


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Originally posted by sycoindian
can u back up ur argument with links to all the assertions? is there any other article/s that corroborate with this one?
interesting nonetheless... First off, as you may not have noticed, that wasn't written by me -- i was just passing it on, in order to inform. But, regarding the cellphone part at least, you might find this of interest...
More Evidence of U.S. Govt 9/11 Complicity

http://feralnews.com/issues/911/dewdney/media_release_030304.html

9/11: The Enlightenment Can Science overcome Myth?
4th March 2003

Professor A.K. Dewdney, author of 'Ghost Riders in the Sky', has released the results of an experiment testing the feasibility of claims that cellphone calls were made from 'hijacked' airplanes on September 11th 2001.

The cellphone calls from hijacked planes were a crucial element of the 'official version' of the horrific events of '9/11', as they directly corroborated the notion that all four planes were hijacked by Arab terrorists.

Dewdney's experiment suggests that it is highly unlikely the cellphone calls took place as reported...

Dewdney's 'Ghost Riders in the Sky' hypothesis has been available on the web since early 2002. Now in its fourth version, it can be viewed HERE. Dewdney is a Canadian Mathematician and Computer Scientist who holds the position of Emeritus Professor at the University of Western Ontario and has some 100 academic papers to his name. He proposes that the four 'hijacked' airplanes on 9/11 were taken over by remote control after all crew and passengers were disabled (probably killed by a poisonous gas such as sarin). Professor Dewdney further suggests that the 'Arab hijackers', whose identity has been shrouded in mystery since it was discovered that several alleged hijackers are in fact alive and well, were patsies. more... (http://feralnews.com/issues/911/dewdney/media_release_030304.html)

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Its well known that this couldn't of happened without the US knowing and their claims this caught them out of the blue are absurd.
The blatant red taping and interfernce of the Dubbya cabnet in stopping key suspects being bought in or information acted on is suspicious to say the least.
The only point i wasn't sure about is the claim of the Fire not being enough to bring down the towers.
I was under the assumption (albeit this was the official line that was fed to us after 9/11) that there was a long standing complaint that the fire proofing was not done in many parts of the tower on the structural beams and in many other places was done poorly (Penny pinching by the construction company).
This i thought would technically allow a sustained burning as seen from the towers to heat the structure enough to start it buckling just enough to start the collapse, if the tower had been hit a few floors higher maybe it would of lasted longer or maybe not collapsed but i think it is possable this was true.
I've seen a lot of blatant and callous lies come out of the GWB administration to justify criminal wars and massacres but to actually plant the explosives as well to ensure his own citizens die to justify it all....thats harsh.....Even i'd have to look a lot more into that one before i swallowed it but again, who knows, sicker stuff has happened.

Lycan, I am glad you posted the body of the text, because I can't get the URL to come out at all..

The cellphone-calls most definitely did occur. Spouses do not mistake their partners voices, and you can't fake the sort of fear they must have felt.. now the fact that a lot of the messages were recorded on the answer phones at home, and most of those people kept the tapes.

So the question is how, - at what height etc... He would really have to get permission to duplicate the experiment over NY, something I can't see him getting.

Psycho-Cannon,

I think it is too easy to get bogged down in micro-detail, and only those involved would understand that.

But it is perhaps more productive to look at the overall picture.

As I said, I think that TWO 800, Vreeland's death, WTC, and possibly Oklahoma, are all related. I am referring to Oklahoma in the sense that the original videos, which showed a middle-eastern man with T.M., and the original testimony of eye-witnesses which was rejected, suggest that there is a much bigger picture than the one which we are shown.

It is that picture, and who is behind it, and what the long-term purpose of a pattern of deception is, that to me is of more interest to me, than the minutae, as to the how, what, where and when.

If the bigger picture can be fitted together, then the detail of the individual events will become clearer...

Personal testimony from other TWA workers confirms that the plane was shot out of the sky with a missile.

Again, is this part of a total picture we are all missing?

I don't know. I'm just sifting through stuff.... I feel that Vreeland's information was a huge lead, so it was not surprising to me, when the USA FBI had him legally sprung from jail in Canada and then went after him.

Everyone involved in his case, knows that the US Government knew a lot about 9/11 before it happened. And that's why he had to die. He was a very dangerous man alive, because he knew far too much.

There are two things in the first post that don't stack up. Firstly, a plane did go into the Pentagon. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous. And the photos on the French website, far from showing that this didn't happen, prove that it did.

Secondly, I have a close friend, who with his own eyes, saw it happen. And still can't sleep at night...

Thirdly, where did the plane, and all the passengers on the manifesto go, if it didn't hit the building?

That suggestion is ludicrous, in the extreme.

__________________

The second suggestion is that the building could not have collapsed as it did.

That is also incorrect. I know, from private communications, that because the building of the WTC was behind schedule, short-cuts were taken, which although they wouldn't have affected a building under normal circumstances, would have led to critical weaknesses in terms of the structural strength in the metal buttresses that went across the core. There is a site somewhere with diagrams which could illustrate this....

But the issue has been looked at, taking into account the structural chort-cuts taken, though I don't know anywhere that this has been put on the web. And the scenario as it did happen, was correct.

However, getting NY city to admit that its inspection engineers tacitly agreed to deviations from the plan submitted to them, would be like pulling hen's teeth.

To me, both those events are proven to have happened as stated.

The problem with some of the conspiracist theorists is that they go so far into the minutae of certain things, to prove their point, that all common sense, and logical explanations are also thrown out the window. And the problem with that, is that it discredits the rest of what they say, which may have some basis.

IMO when you stand back, and look at it logically, you can see that they have simply lost the plot on certain issues.

If you believe those two things above(that no plane hit the pentagon, and that the building had explosives put into it) , then you end up with a morasse of unanswerable questions, which render the total "theories" ludicrous.

This whole thread is SICK http://www.guru3d.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile_puker.gif
Have you people not heard of Occam’s razor? The most likely theory with the 99% of all the evidence for it is that terrorist hijack some planes and rammed them into these buildings… any other hypothesis has only tiny bits of outlier evidence behind it and also are major stretches of imagination and unlikeliest!

Well, Well-cooked fetus, :confused:

It's time you got out of the womb and into the real world, so that instead of being an "Under Grad. BioTech/Chem student", you could actually graduate knowing something.

I really wonder if you have actually learned to read.

High flying lawyers don't get government to concede on matters of importance in court, if there is not an alternative explanation. The TWA 800 case is most definitely linked with 9/11.

Get this through your thick head, boyo The most likely theory with the 99% of all the evidence for it is that terrorist hijack some planes and rammed them into these buildings…

No-one here, has said they haven't. :confused: Got that?

Get a basic ABC, and learn to read. There is absolutely no doubt that 9/11happened. That terrorists flew planes into three buildings Got that?

The whole point of this thread is not that it happened, but how much did the Gov't KNOW about what happened, and on WHOSE instructions were those actions carried out?

Why am I shouting at you? Because you appear to be thick enough to need a verbal two planks around the ear holes.

I really would have thought that someone in a science course would have had the brains to make that distinction, that this is not about WHAT happened, but about the official version of WHO did what and WHY.

If you can't get that distinction, then heaven help American biotech/chem industry.

Before you decide to cover me in more diatribe, go back, read the posts I have put up about the court cases and WHY they are going through the court system, think about why it is that the Government has decided not to defend the allegations against them about TWA 800, think about the evidence tabled by Hilton against the Government regarding 9/11 - and that they were complicit in it......, then maybe go down to the Police Department, or some other establishment that teaches lateral thinking, or detective work, and learn how to put two and two together to get FOUR instead of your worthless vomit icon. For you surely need a rapid course a la de bono. And if you don't get it fast, they you will be of NO USE to the industry you are hoping to enter. Unless of course, you are content to merely be a grunt, rather than a brain.

Either you are seriously short of a logical thought, or you didn't carefully read everything here, or you have had far too much dak last night.....

Wake up. There is a damned sight more smoke outta this gun than there ever was to prove that Saddam Hussein did 9/11, which I hear that over 40% of the American gullibles believe.

I guess you are one of those too, are you?

Yet another conspiracy by the US government. Thousands of people must have been in on this, yet nobody has spilled the beans.

Yeah, right.

It's not impossible though. Look at watergate. And JFK's assasination was pretty suspicious, so much so that speculation is still alive and well today. It's just like all the speculation on CNN about whether Saddam is alive or not. He is almost certainly still alive, but that conspiracy is desirable so nobody complains about it's likely hood and lack of evidence. Don't believe the extrodinary, but don't off-hand discount it either.

Damn, they're coming out of the woodwork already...

Oh James....

Know anything about Vreeland? Hmmm?????

Thousands of people must have been in on this, yet nobody has spilled the beans. Vreeland spilled the beans and is dead for doing so.

But everyone involved in the case knows what the beans were. Including the superintendant of the prison in Canada, where he was "lodging" after the USA FBI "framed" him.

So, Vreeland gets his lawyer, goes to the Superintendant, asks for a piece of paper and pen, writes lists of what he knows, superintendant seals it, and puts it in his safe.

Along comes 9/11. Vreeland gets his lawyer and goes to the Superintendant, and says "Okay, get that envelope out of your safe. Open it, and read the contents out loud to me."

Superintendant does. Poor man chokes on his bile.

Vreeland gets together a real good defence for the FBI charges of fraud, and its about to go to court, when suprisingly, the FBI calls a court session, asking for him to be released on home detention....

:eek:

And then what = all it took was one bullet.

His lawyer still has all the evidence. The court does too.

Now, maybe you could tell me why we don't all know about this?

James, go and look at all these court cases. Go and speak to all the lawyers involved. Get all the documents.

Then consider this. What do you think might happen to you, if you seriously seriously spill the beans without covering your arse majorly... and the only way to do that, is to put it through the courts.

Now, do you know what happens when you do that? The Government tries smear campaigns, stalling tactics, legal strike out manoeuvres... you are lucky if your court case gets there within 10 years. And you will be lucky if you have any money to get past two years.

How many years is it since TWA 800, James? Why do you think it is taking so long for the truth to filter between your two ears?

Doesn't it strike you as odd, that the US Government, having tried every trick in the book, has now decided NOT to defend itself from the allegations made???

If you honestly belief that everything you are told, is the truth and nothing but, then you perhaps should think again.

By the way, James. "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle. You sig has another side to the coin. Which is this...

“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation.”

Herbert Spencer, 1820 - 1903

An educated mind, usually weighs up, and determines the truth of a concept. But there are many educated minds who out of contempt for an idea, simply toss it, without consideration.

Not usually a good idea.

I'm sorry Hesomagari but I actually have a life and did not waste my time reading a thread as long as this one. The title was "The Official Version of 9/11 is a Hoax" and if your saying 9/11 did happen but the government knew about it ahead of time that would not be a Hoax.

It would indeed mean that the official version was a hoax, as the title says.

Would one of you "this is a bunch of bullshit" people mind trying to explain this:

- The attacks of 9/11 COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED without the willful failure of the American defense system. In Washington, Air Force pilots demanded to fly but were ordered to stand down. Yet instead of prosecuting the president and military leaders for this unprecedented dereliction of duty, military leaders were promoted and the president was praised for presiding over a defense system that suspiciously failed the most crucial test in its history. None of the deaths would have happened without the deliberate unplugging of America's air defenses.

Planes that lose contact with control towers are usually intercepted by fighter jets inside of ten minutes, as the incident with the golfer's plane a few months earlier so clearly demonstrated. Yet on 9/11, the jetliners that struck New York were allowed to proceed unmolested for more than a half-hour, and the plane that supposedly crashed in Washington was not intercepted for more than an hour and forty minutes after it was widely known that four planes had been hijacked.

Ok, after reading the article in the original post, I went to the bottom of it and noticed there was a link labeled "DISCLAIMER"

http://www.rense.com/disclaimer.htm


Basically, what this disclaimer tells the readers is that this article is just a little throw off of what typical media says, and has no real integrity whatsoever.

The discalimer says it does not prejudge the accuracy and credibilty, yet the article quite blatantly, describes the refutations of a Muslim Fundmentalism Attack on the World Trade Center, and displays it as serious corroboration of a Government Conspiracy.

It also tells me I can give a giant ~!!BULLSHIT!!~ attachment to this claim.

Thanks for wasting 10 minutes of life......

Lykan,

Yes but that does not mean its a hoax does it? A hoax implies that the whole event never happened... but what you guys are saying is that is did happened but the USofA government knew about it and let is happen for their own sick benefit... that is something else, not a hoax, a conspiracy.

To the moderator that edited and cut down their posts: THANK YOU!!!

To me, saying that the official story is a hoax, is saying that the American government's official version of what happened and why it happened is false.

No that would be a conspiracy.

Webster's Dictionary:

Hoax:
Pronunciation: 'hOks
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: probably contraction of hocus
Date: circa 1796
: to trick into believing or accepting as genuine something false and often preposterous

Conspiracy:
Pronunciation: k&n-'spir-&-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -cies
Etymology: Middle English conspiracie, from Latin conspirare
Date: 14th century
1 : the act of conspiring together
2 a : an agreement among conspirators b : a group of conspirators
synonym see PLOT

Conspiring:
Pronunciation: k&n-'spIr
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): con·spired; con·spir·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French conspirer, from Latin conspirare to be in harmony, conspire, from com- + spirare to breathe
Date: 14th century
transitive senses : PLOT, CONTRIVE
intransitive senses
1 a : to join in a secret agreement to do an unlawful or wrongful act or an act which becomes unlawful as a result of the secret agreement b : SCHEME
2 : to act in harmony toward a common end <circumstances conspired to defeat his efforts>

The attack on 9/11 by terrorist is not a hoax, it’s quit factual. The Government playing apart in it by letting it happen is a conspiracy.

Lykan:

How do I explain that? Simple - it is most likely factually incorrect.


Hesomagari:

I agree with you completely on the need to weigh up ideas and so on.

I've weighed this one up and found it wanting.

Sure, consipracy is always possible. That's what makes conspiracy theories attractive to some people, and so hard to disprove. But you need to look at the totality of evidence and likelihood, rather than just selecting the facts which could be said to support the conspiracy theory.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/collapse.html

As far as blame for 9/11 goes there is a lot to spread around. The 4 planes which each had a seating capacity of 220, only had an average of 58 people on board. Why did the planes take off on coast to coast flights with only a fraction of the seats occupied??

Normally underbooked flights would have been combined with later flights. But the flights were not underbooked because bogus tickets, for non existing persons, had been purchased online by the terrorists to make the planes look full.

The online tickets were non refundable, meaning that the airlines got to keep the money regardless of "no shows". When over 100 people per plane failed to show for the flights someone should have been suspicious , but the greed factor took over. And just as the terrorists had experienced in previous practice flights, the planes departed.

There was nothing high tech about the 9/11 attack. In essence, in our comlacency and greed, we were simply outwitted.

As far as F16's intercepting, it takes over 40 minutes to get an F16 armed and in the air. The only reason that a small plane was recently intercepted is because at the current time we have F16's armed and in the air 24/7 over the DC area.

I was once on a Minneapolis (MN) to Oakland (CA) with less then half the seats fild... It was great I got to lay down over 3 chairs and sleep for the first time ever one a plane (I never can sleep on planes). So I can say from personal experience that yes airliners let planes go at less then half capacity. Do you have any proof those seat were sold out... and by terrorists?

At the time newspaper and television reports about the ticket purchases were all over the place for about 24 hrs. The tickets were proven to be purchased online using computers in public libraries. However this information was quickly silenced by the govenment to protect the airlines. I will try to find the link again.

Was the plane you flew on from MN to Okaland, a 757, on morning flight?? I have even gone to the Delta web site and checked out flights and occupancy. Flights during that time of day from logan and NY are usually at least two thirds full. I have never found even one with less than half of the seats occupied. And I always checked at least three days prior, meaning that there was still time for more tickets to be purchased.



The 757 that went down in Pennsylvania had only 38 passengers including the terrorists.

::veins stick out on head::
::Turns green::

"Me beat with brick lying pri**"

Here is one link regarding the unoccupied seats.

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/US/09/19/hijacked.planes/

Whether or not we agree on the conspiracy theory, we have to agree that 9/11 was probably the best thing that ever happened POLITICALLY and MILITARILY for U.S.A. After the attacks, patriotism was at an all time high. In the eyes of the American people, the government can do no wrong.

Just thinking how sad it is that I’m a little apprehensive posting in this particular thread. Get the feeling I’m being “watched”. Any of you get that feeling?

I just looked out the window and saw a black helicopter circling my house.:eek:

Dig thru this link to find a few surprises.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/popups/0012.html

Good for us? It resulted in our economy breaking down, a massive loss of life, ever growing budjet, and a nasty loss of faith in the government. AND any chances of bush being re-elected going poof.

justiceusa,

No it was a midnight run... Well It was late evening to tell passed midnight by the time of landing. It was the summer before 9/11. Thx you for the info I did not know that, see how much better things are by backing up claims with evidence and proof.

WellCooked Fetus, Let's have a look at the progression of your posts on this thread, shall we?

This whole thread is SICK This was your first comment, right? So then when you couldn't argue with MY posts, as opposed to the first one, all you wanted to do was argue the toss about the meaning of the word HOAX???? Then you said I'm sorry Hesomagari but I actually have a life and did not waste my time reading a thread as long as this one. So what then gives you the right to even say that the whole thread is sick if you hadn't read it?

And if you had "a life" to live, why did you even bother arguing about the meaning of the word HOAX for goodness sake?

You argue the toss about someone's comment re the planes, considering that there words means nothing, and a flight you took in the middle of the night (:LOL) proves your point, but when he comes back with a link you say Thx you for the info I did not know that, see how much better things are by backing up claims with evidence and proof. Can you not see some rich irony in your behaviour? You appear to be happy now, to read the whole thread??? Think it has some merit???

Neither of my first two posts had "no proof", WCF.

It would be nice if perhaps you would apologise for treating us all like three years olds...I find it offensive when people who purport to have some brains, treat us as if we have none...throw their toys out the cot, then crawl back without some sort of apology..

Dear James But you need to look at the totality of evidence and likelihood, rather than just selecting the facts which could be said to support the conspiracy theory.I did.

And it took me nearly 18 months.

Have you REALLY done the same?

Dear dsdsds,we have to agree that 9/11 was probably the best thing that ever happened POLITICALLY and MILITARILY for U.S.A. After the attacks, patriotism was at an all time high. In the eyes of the American people, the government can do no wrong. I disagree. Why?Just thinking how sad it is that I’m a little apprehensive posting in this particular thread. Get the feeling I’m being “watched”. Any of you get that feeling?Because "this", and all the legislative changes that have occurred as a result, such as the Patriot Act 1 and 2, the Whistleblower act, and the legislation surrounding surveillance, have reduced your country to something bordering on Orson Welles 1984. If you consider that has been the best thing for you AS A PEOPLE, as a result of you feeling its been the best thing, POLITICALLY and MILITARILY, I think that how it will pan out for you as a people, may well cancel out anything else...

Then of course there is this, which I picked up here...

U.S. NATIONAL DEBT CLOCK
The Outstanding Public Debt as of 29 Mar 2003 at 09:28:31 AM GMT is: $6,463,132,884,511.03 which since that time has risen $4 billion.

(The estimated population of the United States is 290,599,149
so each citizen's share of this debt iwas $22,240.42. as of 29 March. The National Debt has continued to increase an average of $1.31 billion per day since September 30, 2002!)

I would not be at all happy with anything that is happening in your country right now, just looking at the bald facts...

I really hope that the American people take a grip of the whole thing and sort it out, for their own sakes.

Because the fact is, if all that is directly as a result of 9/11, and if the Government is complicit in that, as well as TWA 800 and the murder of Vreeland, then I hate to think where it will all end, if the people of the USA do not demand full accountability and disclosure. It wasn't for nothing, that the official enquiry of 9/11 never got off the ground...

Hesomagari,

I find it offensive when someone puts words in my mouth and think I’m trying to insult them and then hammer me with Ad Hominem and Redharring fallacies the likes of which I have never seen before. We have a very laid back attitude around here and most that don’t stick to it don’t get heard a lot... some even get banned.

WCFI find it offensive when someone puts words in my mouth and think I’m trying to insult them and then hammer me with Ad Hominem and Redharring fallacies the likes of which I have never seen before. Show me who did that.

Yep, pretty laid back. So why did you throw your toys then?

Why did you not calmly, lay out the so-called fallacies, and discuss them like a good, calm scientist you wish to be?

I'd still like to see sane, sensible discussion from you....over and above your admission re the planes...

Hesomagari,

Well lets see... Almost Everything you have said about me a Ad Hominum and you just been attack me blatantly. That’s and the fact that when talking to me you do not support your own theory but just spend you time criticizing everything I have said that’s a redharring. Such acts are hostile and not at all what we do here. By the way you remind me of someone and if you are whom I am thinking of then I hope you put me under reference?

shakes head... what planet do you come from WCF?

You cannot honestly expect to come on this thread, dish up crap, and not get some back....:D :D You deserved everything you got. What made you think Ad Hominem was disallowed? I've seen it everywhere here, from day one.

Nothing I have said are redherrings. They are an attempt to make you realise how hypocritical you have been, right from the start. Any dunderhead can see that.

And also an attempt to make you see that you should be discussing facts, not that you think we are SICK, or crapping on about the meaning of the word HOAX.

Now, howsabout discussing FACTS surrounding the issue at hand please.... and maybe even an apology for insulting everyone's intelligence around here would also be nice...

Presuming you consider discussing facts, your forte. So far, you have had little in the way of anything constructive to say about the topic on hand. And if you continue that way, you might even land up with more ad hominem...

Nothing I have said are redherrings. They are an attempt to make you realise how hypocritical you have been, right from the start. Any dunderhead can see that.

Aaah and what does that have to do with you thread topic? Nothing, RedHarring :D

What made you think Ad Hominem was disallowed?

Should we ask a Mod. or Admin.???

or crapping on about the meaning of the word HOAX

Ya, but that is a fact, just like you asked.

As for the conspiracy theory of this thread: I personally don't care, and if you want to say the government is anymore @#$% up then it is go right ahead. The only reason I have been coming back here is because of you taking cheap shots at me. Look at it like this if you had replied to me constructively and explain your points nice and clear... then I would have left and we would not be talking about this totally off hand subject now.

It’s difficult (but not impossible) to believe that the government could have staged the whole thing considering they can’t even properly forge a simple document. (re. Doc. To UN on Iraq). Or was that forgery botched on purpose for some reason?

and people accuse me of taking a road to close to conspiracy theories ^_^.

Maybe they are taking after the addage:

"The dumber people think you are, the more suprised they will be when you kill them"

There is a "diclaimer" at the bottom of the ,"Rense.com" , conspiracy link that you started this thread with. I suggest that you read it. It simply states that whatever you read may, or may not be true.