What drives our need for revenge against those who have wronged us or caused us harm?

This question has been plagueing me of late. A month ago I found myself in a horrible and nightmarish situation, one that I never expected to be and never wish to be in again. I was not placed there by accident, but by the negligence of my obstetrician which resulted in my baby and myself nearly dying. The only thing that saved us was pure luck and coincidence.

Ever since that horrible night one month ago, I have found myself wanting revenge from this particular obstetrician. While many have suggested a lawsuit, the thought does not appeal to me at all. I neither need or want her money. What I do want is to report her to every single medical body which she would fall under. I want this as revenge in the hope she faces at least one inquiry for what she has done. But most importantly, I wish to inflict his form of revenge on her so that she does not put another expectant mother through the hell and danger she put me and my now 1 month old baby through.

So what drives this desire for revenge? Why do we want to make the person, who has caused us pain, to suffer?

i would rather have 100 male enemies than one female.

So what drives this desire for revenge? Why do we want to make the person, who has caused us pain, to suffer?

Evolutionary games and evolutionarily stable strategies. Retaliation serves the stability of personal (or gene-specific fitness). Have you read any Dawkins? Not the most diplomatic of representatives, but he grasps the situation well. If you want the original readings, Maynard Smith and Hamilton. Or, you could wiki it. ;)

Welcome to the "Animal" kingdom. Plants probably retaliate too, but no one really cares about them.

So what drives this desire for revenge? Why do we want to make the person, who has caused us pain, to suffer?

Welcome to the human race, Bells.

It's natural, it's genetic, it's evolution, it's what every other specie of animals do throughout nature and throughout all of history and pre-history. It's a similar thing that causes us to want to fuck ...to ask "what" causes the need, the desire, is like asking why we breathe.

The answer? Because!

Now go back to that baby and take care of him/her like you should and don't worry about things that you can't do anything about. Your worry and concern about things like that will affect your baby more than you know ..so be careful.

Baron Max

i would rather have 100 male enemies than one female.

Your point?

----------------------------------------------------

I will admit, in the weeks that followed the horror, I wanted to harm her physically if I could. The anger I felt in the week that followed is beyond description. This was fueled by the fact I found out 2 days later that she cited a previous engagement when the hospital paged her and advised her that I had had the emergency. In short, she did not even bother to show up. Thankfully there were other, more qualified obstetricians on hand, including the head of obstetrics who took over and did the surgery. My obstetrician however did not even bother to follow up or even come and see me once. Not when I was in intensive care or back in the ward afterwards. She virtually disappeared. That enraged me to be honest. I wanted to vent and to ask her personally how and why she could have done what she did that resulted in my son and myself coming so bloody close to death. I even tried to make an appointment to see her at her consultation rooms, but have been advised that there are no openings (???). Instead, my follow up visits have been taken over by the head of obstetrics at the hospital I was in. He was the one who told me what had happened and he was the one who told me that I should have been booked in for a c-section two weeks before my due date as I would never have been able to deliver the child naturally and that he could not understand why I had been induced.

You can see why I was and am still angry. Each time I look at my newborn, I realise just how close we came. I also realise that had I not been induced and at the hospital when it all went downhill, we would have died as we would not have made it to the hospital in time (hence the luck and pure coincidence).

I no longer wish to inflict physical harm on her (I had wanted to tear the flesh from her body to be honest). I guess that was just the pure rage and emotion I felt soon afterwards. That feeling has passed now. The feeling now is to stop her from doing this again to someone else. I want her to learn from her negligence and if that means she may never practice again, so be it. Of course this was not helped by the fact that two days after I came home from the hospital, a news story was shown of a woman who had the same thing happen to her, only she died afterwards due to the bloodloss she suffered. As far as I am concerned, her attitude before, during and after the "event" proves to me that she needs to be reported. I still cannot fathom how it could have happened. It was pure negligence. Revenge? Hell yes I want revenge against her.

Like, why am, I like, feeling, like, all these unliberal feelings!?!?

Hahahaha.

Bells, Bells, Bells, you raging, hormonal wreck.

Easy now, Roman.

Bells, did you think about kicking her in the nuts? I realize that's a favourite pastime. ;)

In all seriousness, I'm just glad you're ok. I can understand why you're pissed, though. It's normal. Don't beat yourself up about it.

While many have suggested a lawsuit, the thought does not appeal to me at all. I neither need or want her money.

hey if you don't need the money could you give it to me than ? I am in need of money

Maybe you should kick dragon in the nuts.

Maybe you should kick dragon in the nuts.

that want solve my money problems and her need for revenge.

I think it would get the revenge thingy.

I think it would get the revenge thingy.

I am not a obstetrician who needs to be kicked in the :rolleyes: ....there...

I am draqon of white stars.

Well then you definitely need a nut-kicking.

Well then you definitely need a nut-kicking.

but I am innocent in this scenario. This would be violence towards already almost extinct animals.

So you're saying syngameons deserve to be kicked in the nuts? That's animal cruelty, that is.

So you're saying syngameons deserve to be kicked in the nuts? That's animal cruelty, that is.

Noone should be kicked anywhere. Lets all be silent and eternally peacefully blissful. Let the slow sands of time caress the waters of infinite boundaries within the troubled mind and slowly fade into the calming shallow depths of eternal dreams.

...kick him, please, someone, soon.

...kick him, please, someone, soon.

umm...GeoffP, should I point out, this thread is about Bells and her problems with revenge. So on topic.

I'm sorry. You're right.

Bells, I think the best solution would be for you to find a harmless way to vent your anger. Kicking dragon in the nuts would be one way to do this.

HEH!

My GP, who is a good friend, dropped by with all the numbers and addresses of the medical bodies I need to report her to.:) She too feels that this woman has acted terribly. It would appear that she did not even bother to look at the ultra-sound images which clearly showed I should never have been allowed to go into labour.:bawl: She even stated in my file that she only read the report, which only gave a figure. Had she looked at the images however, she would have seen that the figure, while correct, did not interpret the situation as it was. My GP access those images and advised me of this, hence why she dropped by with the contact details.

My husband is angry beyond words. His anger is different to mine I guess. He was called to the hospital when it all went wrong (after being sent home 15 minutes beforehand) and arrived not knowing what had happened. When he got there, he was taken to a waiting room and told that a major complication had arisen and someone would be out to speak to him as soon as they could. Two minutes later a midwife walked into the room and told him to follow her. He walked out of the room and saw a few doctors and nurses rushing our son to the neonatal intensive care unit. He still had no idea what had happened, only that our son was born. Five hours later, I was stabilised enough for him to be allowed in to see me and that was when he found out what happened. To now be told that she had not even looked at the ultra-sound images has brought it all back for him, and more for me as well.

Am I hormonal? Yes. Of course I am. Is that the source of the anger and wish for revenge? No.

On Monday I will be filing the complaints against this woman and I will cheer if they take away her licence to practice medicine. Filing those complaints will be cathartic, a closure and something that needs to be done. At the very least, I will have gotten my revenge. At most, she will never be able to do this to someone else and possibly kill them in the process.

I'm sorry. You're right.

Bells, I think the best solution would be for you to find a harmless way to vent your anger. Kicking dragon in the nuts would be one way to do this.

Let me get a magnifying glass so that I can find them first..:p

Just kidding.. lol..

Good idea. Report the bugger. They can't be allowed to just carry on like that.

Let me get a magnifying glass so that I can find them first..:p

Just kidding.. lol..

:eek:

Dragon, your days are numbered.

Bells...I understand this woman had done you wrong. But if you file a complaint, she might loose her job, which would mean she would never learn from her mistake and also there will be not enough obstetricians. Of course this is a gamble of life and death... but doctors take that risk, they have to.

Is that the source of the anger and wish for revenge? No.

I have nothing to support this whatsoever, but I've always felt rage was a hormone (or several of them), like epinephrine or dopamine.

The desire for revenge make since, I guess, from an evolutionary standpoint- kill what kills your family, takes your stuff, bites you, etc.

Your point?

----------------------------------------------------

I will admit, in the weeks that followed the horror, I wanted to harm her physically if I could. The anger I felt in the week that followed is beyond description. This was fueled by the fact I found out 2 days later that she cited a previous engagement when the hospital paged her and advised her that I had had the emergency. In short, she did not even bother to show up. Thankfully there were other, more qualified obstetricians on hand, including the head of obstetrics who took over and did the surgery. My obstetrician however did not even bother to follow up or even come and see me once. Not when I was in intensive care or back in the ward afterwards. She virtually disappeared. That enraged me to be honest. I wanted to vent and to ask her personally how and why she could have done what she did that resulted in my son and myself coming so bloody close to death. I even tried to make an appointment to see her at her consultation rooms, but have been advised that there are no openings (???). Instead, my follow up visits have been taken over by the head of obstetrics at the hospital I was in. He was the one who told me what had happened and he was the one who told me that I should have been booked in for a c-section two weeks before my due date as I would never have been able to deliver the child naturally and that he could not understand why I had been induced.

You can see why I was and am still angry. Each time I look at my newborn, I realise just how close we came. I also realise that had I not been induced and at the hospital when it all went downhill, we would have died as we would not have made it to the hospital in time (hence the luck and pure coincidence).

I no longer wish to inflict physical harm on her (I had wanted to tear the flesh from her body to be honest). I guess that was just the pure rage and emotion I felt soon afterwards. That feeling has passed now. The feeling now is to stop her from doing this again to someone else. I want her to learn from her negligence and if that means she may never practice again, so be it. Of course this was not helped by the fact that two days after I came home from the hospital, a news story was shown of a woman who had the same thing happen to her, only she died afterwards due to the bloodloss she suffered. As far as I am concerned, her attitude before, during and after the "event" proves to me that she needs to be reported. I still cannot fathom how it could have happened. It was pure negligence. Revenge? Hell yes I want revenge against her.

You should not get angry because it was not done on purpose, you should probably report her. Most likely I would not but that's what women are good at.:)

I would say report her if you think it was that serious, the easiest way would be to tell her superior and throw it in their hands. This way it is not your problem anymore and you dont have to worry about her becoming vindictive toweards you...i guess.

Oh, and good luck with the new baby.

Did you gain alot of weight?

Have you lost it?

Are you cute?

Are you cute?

( any girl will say she is cute.)

i thought so.

Bells...I understand this woman had done you wrong. But if you file a complaint, she might loose her job, which would mean she would never learn from her mistake and also there will be not enough obstetricians. Of course this is a gamble of life and death... but doctors take that risk, they have to.
So you think I should sit back and say nothing? Interesting.

Yes doctors take risks. However she did not take a risk. She simply did not do her job properly. When a doctor sends someone for an ultrasound, it is expected that they would at least look at the damn thing. After all, I was sent for an ultrasound specifically because of the chance that what happened might happen. Had she looked at the ultrasound, she would have seen for herself that there was not just a risk that it might happen, but that it would certainly happen. That was not a risk, but laziness and negligence on her behalf. I had asked her several times when she cleared me for a natural labour if she was sure and she was quite adamant. Had I known she had not looked at the images, I would have immediately sought a second opinion.

Now if she was negligent with me, a paying client, imagine what she would be like with public patients who fall under the country's medicare system? She needs to be held accountable for her actions.

You should not get angry because it was not done on purpose
She purposefully failed to look at the ultrasound images, something she is meant to do. That's why the sonographers send them to her immediately along with a report of the ultrasound results and measurements. She only read the report and did not bother to bring up the images.

That makes me angry. Her failure to do her job properly nearly cost my son his life and mine as well. That would have meant that not only would my son have died, but my first born would have had to grow up without a mother and my husband would have lost a child and a wife. I spent 24 hours in intensive care, my son spent 2 days in neonatal intensive care. I had bruises all over my arms and hands because my veins collapsed due to the bloodloss trauma that occured prior to the surgery. I was wheeled into the operating theater thinking and feeling like I was about to die, begging them to save my child, begging them to tell my husband I loved him and our children. I think I have a right to be angry.

you should probably report her. Most likely I would not but that's what women are good at.
Yes, we have stopped merely lying down and letting people walk all over us and doing whatever they wish to us, even if it is to our detriment. We aren't the silent and weak types anymore. Boohoo...

And yes I will report her.:)

I would say report her if you think it was that serious, the easiest way would be to tell her superior and throw it in their hands.
Well the head of obstetrics at the hospital where I had the baby was the one who advised me I should never have been allowed to even start to labour. So as her superior, I would imagine he already knows. He was the first one to indicate issues of negligence to me and he was not a happy looking man when he told me what happened and that I should have had a c-section to ensure I never even started to labour. I would imagine that in the inner workings of the hospital, an investigation may have already started into her actions. He will be receiving a formal complaint in regards to her care this week, along with other medical bodies. It will be thrown into their hands and they will be the ones to decide her fate.

Personally, I don't think she should be allowed to practice again. When you act so negligently that you nearly kill 2 people, you should face some form of punishment and not be placed in a position where you can do it again.

And I think nearly killing 2 people is serious enough, don't you? The head of obstetrics told me outright that had I started to labour naturally at home, I and my son would have died as there would have been no way that I could have gotten to the hospital in time as it all went pear shape right at the start of my labour. As I said, it was pure luck that I had been induced and was in the hospital when it happened.

This way it is not your problem anymore and you dont have to worry about her becoming vindictive toweards you...i guess.
I am the last person she would want to be vindictive against.

Oh, and good luck with the new baby.

Did you gain alot of weight?

Have you lost it?

Are you cute?
Thank you.

No.

No.

Yes, I am interesting but ugly.:)

People here just think that you may be a little on edge after the other incident where the old people bashed you with a stick and now this. But it does look kind of serious from your explanation.


So is this what your going to do?

You do a follow up at the hospital (with a friend, for a third party presence) and talk to head person or a few people there. They will probably protect eachother internally but at least they will be aware of it.:shrug:

People here just think that you may be a little on edge after the other incident where the old people bashed you with a stick and now this. But it does look kind of serious from your explanation.


So is this what your going to do?

You do a follow up at the hospital (with a friend, for a third party presence) and talk to head person or a few people there. They will probably protect eachother internally but at least they will be aware of it.:shrug:

I am not on edge due to the actions of a demented old man.

What I will do will be to file the complaint. I was her private patient and now I am the patient of the head of obstetrics and the hospital is covering the charge, something that indicates they are well aware of her negligence.

The obstetrician I had seen when I had my first child was sadly going to be away for the second half of my pregnancy, and that was the reason I was seeing her. He apparently returns in 3 weeks and I will be going to see him upon his return. My GP has been very supportive and has told me she will help me in any way she can. She read my file and has given me more information about what happened. My old obstetrician might be able to help me further. But I will be filing the first complaints this week. My GP and hopefully my old obstetrician, when he returns, will be able to help me later on as the complaints process goes through. I have been told by my GP that I may be questioned about what has happened, so I may need them there to help me with some of the details of my file.

We know she did not read the ultrasound as she failed to comment on certain specifics from said ultrasounds which she should have done in my file. I was told this by the obstetrician who did the surgery and who I am currently seeing for follow ups. He told me that she left out essential information and they had to access those images to attain this information when I was being prepped for surgery. Had she been competent, that information would have been easily accessible in my file.

If they decide to protect her, it is at their own cost and peril, but the medical bodies I will be filing the complaints to are outside of the hospital and independent. They will decide what is to happen to her. I will also file a complaint with the hospital itself.

Well ,
Almost sounds like the classical example of placenta previa covering cervix ........:eek:

Go hit her, Bells - lend the stick of the old demented guy ...or better, let him do the job .......just tell him there´s a young insolent bitch needing a good whacking ........:p

No , seriously .....file the complaints and bring her down .........she is dangerous ..........;)

Well ,
Almost sounds like the classical example of placenta previa covering cervix .......


Yep.

And when the induction started to work, it tore away and then bits of it started to break off. The blood loss was nothing like I had ever seen before. Hence why we would not have made it to the hospital in time if I had begun to labour naturally and not been in the hospital. At one point as the midwives were rushing me down to the trauma room in the birthsuite, they lost the baby's heart beat. And until we got into the trauma room and a CTG monitor was used, I actually thought the baby was dead already.:bawl: That was the worst part of it for me actually. Right at that point where the little baby monitor that the midwives walk around with went silent and the looks on their faces as they pushed my bed at a sprint towards the elevators. I didn't know whether to scream or not. I think I started to sob.:bawl: I would not wish what I went through on anyone, not even my worst enemy.

You can see why I am angry.:(

Bells, there are two kinds of responses to a problem. One is the response where you want to throw your tools through the garage window because the damned ignition system can't be made to act in a way that you understand. The other is where you reason it through and treat it as an intellectual puzzle until you come up with a solution that makes the best fit.

You have a right to be angry because you and your child almost died. Anger doesn't solve problems, though. People who work to make you angry interfere with your problem-solving abilities. You need just enough to get the adrenalin going and wake up your mind, and then you need your mind. The problem is fairly clear-cut and the evidence shows that the obstetrician willfully did not do her job, willfully conducted herself in a manner that showed that she did not want to do her job, so she should be relieved of that responsibility, so you should turn over the evidence and tell them that you believe that this problem must be solved this way and that's the best solution that you can come up with.

You can see why I am angry(

Yes ........ breaking bits of it, will be like opening for the shower in your bathroom .....only , it is not water coming out .........
Normally this condition is easily found .... and you will get a caesarian long before you can go into labour .........

Even a med-student will know this , and to have a fully educated obstetrician to overlook this, is ........I don´t know what to say ....... " an act of poor medical skill , endangering both mother and baby " ...........not only not easy to forgive , but outright dangerous ........one of the reasons why mums get scanned and checked in pregnancy is to avoid this ...........

Anyway - she deserves to "have a chat" with the authorities/medical boards .... she will never forget that , believe me .......:cool: :m: :p

So what drives this desire for revenge? Why do we want to make the person, who has caused us pain, to suffer?

In short, to release frustration, fear, anger and hurt, what's better way to do it then to aim this action toward the person who caused them???

Sounds pretty logical to me. Also if the revenge ends up elliminating the person, that ensures that the original offense won't happen again, at least not by the same person... ;)

what a bitch you and the need for revenge i have no idea but isent it odd how we somtimes get pleasure out of making fun of people, bullies etc maybe it has somthing linked with that well i dont no.

Now on a more personal note:

Do the honorable American thing and sue her!

If you want her to learn a lesson, a complaint probably won't do it. If her insurance goes up by 200% due to a lost negligence lawsuit, that is a very strong lesson, that sure makes her look at images twice in the future.

Money doesn't pay for everything, but sure smoothes things. At least talk to a lawyer so you will know just what kind of money we are talking about. My guess is that at least 200K...

If you don't need the money, you can always donate it to the Red cross and also thing about all the starving lawyers whom need a winning case like this...

but if shes in a place with the nhs then u would be stoping hundreds of people geting the care they needed that is saying if she sues the hospital but if shes suing the woman thats all good

I would not sue the hospital as it was the staff there who literally saved the life of my child and my own. The midwives on that ward were brilliant and the doctors and nurses who ultimately did the operation were equally brilliant. The baby was out in about 12 minutes from when it all started and apparently that was cutting it fine. We'd had to wait 1 minute or so for the elevator apparently. I was very lucky that the staff who were there, were there when it happened, because apparently it all went wrong right on a shift change so most of the doctors who were in the surgery, be it the obstetricians, paediatricians and ICU doctors had stayed back when I was rushed down. I would never sue them.

And I have no intention to sue her either. Money will not change what happened and it will not stop it from happening again. Malpractice suits are time consuming and stressful in the extreme, something I do not wish to endure. I don't need or want money from her or her insurance provider. What I do want is to make sure she is never so negligent with another patient again. Complaining to the relevant bodies should open her eyes and that of others to the complacency that sometimes exists in this field.

Everything is in the file and what happened speaks for itself. They only need to look at the ultrasound images and see what ultimately happened to see for themselves that she was incompetent.

one of the reasons why mums get scanned and checked in pregnancy is to avoid this ..........
That was the thing. I had been diagnosed as having a low lying placenta at 18 weeks and had more scans at 36 weeks and then 38 weeks to see if it had moved up. It was the 38 week scan she did not bother to read if my file is anything to go by. Because both the doctors who did the surgery and my own GP who saw the images have said that if she had looked at the images of that 38 week scan, she would have seen that there was no way I could deliver naturally. And I had questioned her about whether I was clear to deliver naturally as I felt uncomfortable at the prospect seeing that the measurement she cited was so small. She assured me it was fine and then proceeded to make me feel like an over-bearing patient for daring to question her decision.:( And low and behold, I dialated exactly that amount before everything went wrong. And because it was an inducement, there was no way to stop the labour as the gel was continuing to work and they could not stop it from working. The amount was minute and something that I would have not even noticed or the labour pains would have been barely noticeable had I been at home and laboured naturally. As they said, the only thing that saved me was that I was induced and in the hospital when it happened and that they reacted so quickly to the emergency.

I would not sue the hospital as it was the staff there who literally saved the life of my child and my own.

The reason they had to save you because one if its stuff was inadequate. Not to mention a wrongful death suit doesn't help their balancesheet.

Ask your husband what would he had done, if both his wife and kid had died. I am curious of his answer....

The reason they had to save you because one if its stuff was inadequate. Not to mention a wrongful death suit doesn't help their balancesheet.

Ask your husband what would he had done, if both his wife and kid had died. I am curious of his answer....

The hospital was not inadequate. The individual doctor was.

If we had died, I don't know what my husband would have done. Neither does he. The look on his face when he was allowed in to see me was only one of shock and frankly, fear. At that time, it was still touch and go as far as I was concerned. I would imagine he might have sued the doctor, but not the hospital. I can't fault them for their actions. The doctor is a senior consultant in this particular hospital. The fault was entirely hers and hers alone. The hospital itself has been very supportive and had been even before it all happened. Their actions when it happened was, as I said before, brilliant. They were honest in what had caused it and were quite open in their criticism as to how it could have occured. They have allowed my GP to access my file at my request without question or delay.

As I said, I do not need the money or the stress involved in a malpractice suit. I would like to file the complaints against her as the primary cause of the problem that ensued. She was my primary caregiver and had been the only obstetrician I had seen during the course of my pregnancy. She is solely to blame and no one else.

What drives our need for revenge against those who have wronged us or caused us harm?

This question has been plagueing me of late. A month ago I found myself in a horrible and nightmarish situation, one that I never expected to be and never wish to be in again. I was not placed there by accident, but by the negligence of my obstetrician which resulted in my baby and myself nearly dying. The only thing that saved us was pure luck and coincidence.

Ever since that horrible night one month ago, I have found myself wanting revenge from this particular obstetrician. While many have suggested a lawsuit, the thought does not appeal to me at all. I neither need or want her money. What I do want is to report her to every single medical body which she would fall under. I want this as revenge in the hope she faces at least one inquiry for what she has done. But most importantly, I wish to inflict his form of revenge on her so that she does not put another expectant mother through the hell and danger she put me and my now 1 month old baby through.

So what drives this desire for revenge? Why do we want to make the person, who has caused us pain, to suffer?

I think GeoffP said it best:

"Retaliation serves the stability of personal (or gene-specific fitness)."

It can translate into pettiness quite easily as even unintentional mistakes are retalitated against.

i would rather have 100 male enemies than one female.

Smart choice...:p

Well, then call the Better Business Bureau and complain. I am sure the hospital also has some kind of complaints department.

But again, a simple complain goes nowhere. let's use an analogy, catholic priests. There were compainst against several of them for childmolestation, and what happened? they were placed to another parish.

Once the church got sued, that's when the shit started to fly finally!!!

I hate lawyers and I am not for generally suing, but sometimes you have to do it to get a point across.

Or for 5 K you can get her kneecapped...

P.S.: How would you feel if you heard that the same thing happened yesterday to another woman with the same doctor, but in this case both her and the child died? OK, that was a lowblow, but I guess I get my point across to you....

Like, why am, I like, feeling, like, all these unliberal feelings!?!?

Roman has hit on the crux of the problem. Liberalism has a way of not working very well in real life. What's that old saying,
A liberal is just a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet.

Roman has hit on the crux of the problem. Liberalism has a way of not working very well in real life. What's that old saying,
A liberal is just a conservative who hasn't been mugged yet.


It's a little bit, ah, elitist of Bell in her implicit assumption that she's somehow free from the same violent emotions as the rest of us. "Gee! I didn't think people like me could feel like people like them!"

Please. It's this sort of ignorance that leads to intenable policy.

So what drives this desire for revenge? Why do we want to make the person, who has caused us pain, to suffer?
The desire for revenge is uniquely human. Animals dont need it because they have no ego, or sense of pride.

Animals of course may be agressive according to the species, but their agression is purpose driven according to their needs. It is not motivated by hate, and doesnt last any longer than neccessary.

Only humans are capable of extreme hate and extreme love.

The desire for revenge is uniquely human. Animals dont need it because they have no ego, or sense of pride.

Wrong.
Numerous species of mammal will retaliate against those who harm them or their offspring. If you are cruel to an animal, it bites. Vengeance is only limited by ability to retaliate and memory. For instance, elephants. Or gorillas. Or chimps. Or moose, or bears, or cats or dogs.

It's a little bit, ah, elitist of Bell in her implicit assumption that she's somehow free from the same violent emotions as the rest of us. "Gee! I didn't think people like me could feel like people like them!"

Please. It's this sort of ignorance that leads to intenable policy.

On the contrary. I am more surprised that my reaction has been as tame as it has been. This has also come as some surprise by those who know me.

Numerous species of mammal will retaliate against those who harm them or their offspring.
They will certainly retaliate in immediate cases of self defense, as this has a practical purpose relative to survival.

But animals will not retaliate out of revenge at some later time when aggression is no longer required.

But animals will not retaliate out of revenge at some later time when aggression is no longer required.

Not true.
Elephants have long memories. They will even carry around corpses like trophies.
Animals that have been mistreated have been known to retaliate against their tormentors at later dates.

Animals that have been mistreated have been known to retaliate against their tormentors at later dates.Sure, but not out of revenge. Only because they recognize a tormentor as an immediate threat.

Sure, but not out of revenge. Only because they recognize a tormentor as an immediate threat.

And revenge isn't a more cerebral development of the same emotional pathway?

Well, then call the Better Business Bureau and complain. I am sure the hospital also has some kind of complaints department.

But again, a simple complain goes nowhere. let's use an analogy, catholic priests. There were compainst against several of them for childmolestation, and what happened? they were placed to another parish.

Once the church got sued, that's when the shit started to fly finally!!!

I hate lawyers and I am not for generally suing, but sometimes you have to do it to get a point across.

Or for 5 K you can get her kneecapped...

P.S.: How would you feel if you heard that the same thing happened yesterday to another woman with the same doctor, but in this case both her and the child died? OK, that was a lowblow, but I guess I get my point across to you....
A lawsuit would then make her a victim.

If I heard she did this to someone else resulting in deaths, I would be sure to let the woman's family know that she has done this to me as well, only I survived and I would help them if they wished to sue and/or report her for negligence. A lawsuit will not get her out of her consultation rooms or prevent her from practicing.

And revenge isn't a more cerebral development of the same emotional pathway?
No, its a different pathway altogether.

Animalistic agression is a path from the instinct to survive, which values economy of motion.

Revenge is a path from the human ego.