The Importance of the Holy Sacrament

As a proponent of Catholicism I think I have largely been remiss in not emphasizing enough the importance of the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ in the Bread and Wine of the Holy Mass. One of Catholicism’s great Prophets and Visionaries, Saint John Bosco, saw in a Vision that the Catholic Church would be surrounded and pounded by enemies until, with the Death of a Beleaguered Pope (which may well refer to Pope John Paul II), a New Pope would take Charge and insist upon a focus upon only Two Points: The Importance of the Eucharist, and Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

I have focused almost entirely upon the Devotion to the Blessed Virgin who has been something of My Patroness in many of my Dreams and Visions. But in reading many Protestant Postings which wonder whether Salvation comes with Faith or with Baptism, it occurred to me that the Majority of Nominal Christians in the World entirely dismiss the Holy Sacrament as a trivial excrescence. They don’t even mention it anymore.

Yes, that Enemy of All True Christianity, Paul, is somewhat responsible here. Remember in Corinthians where Paul quite insists that the Holy Sacrament is entirely subjective, and will likely do more harm than good, becoming a poison if taken by a sinner, and in his next breath declaring all Christians to be unworthy sinners. It was a deadly formula which had ever since caused Christians to shy away from the Holy Sacrament – for the Protestants to fearfully dismiss it almost entirely, and for the Catholics to put the Holy Sacrament under the strictest restrictions.

However, if the Holy Saints of Christ-Like Powers and the True Holy Spirit of God have more in common with each other than Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, it is in their Conviction that the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist has joined their Substance in the Very Substance of the Cosmic Christ.

Which is not to say that the Eucharist confers Salvation. But the Eucharist may allow for the Grace of the Vine of Christ to run within us, to transform us, and to enable us to achieve that Moral and Spiritual Perfection which could allow us to be Acquitted when we stand before Christ, that Dreadful Judge who Remembers Humanity primarily for the Pain and Suffering it inflicted upon Himself.

Indeed, when a survey was taken of Former Protestant Ministers who had given up their Careers in order to Convert to Catholicism, it was found that the Reason given for their Conversion was unanimously only One Primary Concern, that the Only True Church must be The Church that still Celebrates the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist that was enjoined upon His Church by Christ Himself. That the Protestant Churches have rejected the Eucharist is sufficient sign that they have Rejected Christ. Why, compare the Protestant Cross with the Catholic Crucifix. The Protestants seem to have lost Christ!

Originally the SACRAMENT was/is an hallucinogenic plant/substance/drink/annointing oil which once ingested gives spiritual inspiration, and emotional release and expression

What the Church did was appropriate the name and symbolism--from the pagan origins--yet replace the actual with an emty meaningless 'sacrament' that gives the user of it absolutely ZILTCH experience, not really even placeboic in comparison with the real one it replaced

The original sacramant is CENTRAL to myth and religous understanding.

but we must also realize this.
That the sacramant alone is not enough. ALSO there has to be--in modern lingo--Set&Setting. That is the preliminary insight into the Intelligence of Nature. where the ascetic sacramanealists went wrong (and i am not here talking about the Chrurch as such which totally prohibited actual hallucinogenic sacraments), such as the Orphics, the Essenes etc., is that they already had ideas that their destiny was away from earth, into their idea of a spirit-realm. whether their beliefs were prior to their use of sacramants (which were hallucinogenic) or inspired by their way of experincing the sacrament (ie., emphasizing interiorization, rather than participation), is not really that important as such. what needs to be understood is that what one BRINGs to the taking of a sacramant is as important as what one takes from it. For me, Nature must be central. when the dogma becomes anti-natrue, then that is a string hint something is wrong!

We know that Christianity is a weave of extracts from earlier mythologies and for certain the sacrament will be no different, just like virgin births, saviors, super heroes, miracles, gods, and the like. From a very brief search the sacrament concept seems to be about an inititiation ceremony, a rite of passage. Pretty much a ceremony to be performed as part of club membership.

If anyone has any detailed references to sacrament mythology then that would be interesting to hear.

duendy, the term sacrament wasn't used by early christians, and is a late Latin word(Webster). Early Christians only spoke Greek or Aramaic. I'm not sure what you mean by "copied" the name. "Etymology: Middle English sacrement, sacrament, from Old French & Late Latin; Old French, from Late Latin sacramentum, from Latin, oath of allegiance, obligation, from sacrare to consecrate"

okinrus: duendy, the term sacrament wasn't used by early christians, and is a late Latin word(Webster). Early Christians only spoke Greek or Aramaic. I'm not sure what you mean by "copied" the name. "Etymology: Middle English sacrement, sacrament, from Old French & Late Latin; Old French, from Late Latin sacramentum, from Latin, oath of allegiance, obligation, from sacrare to consecrate"
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M*W: I can remember a time when I cherished the sacraments of the early christians. I enjoyed the devotion of many saints and gods. That's what attracted me to Catholicism. I wanted the rules. I wanted the worship of saints. I longed for the obligation of the consecration. I was looking for rules in my life and Catholicism had them all.

duendy, the term sacrament wasn't used by early christians, and is a late Latin word(Webster). Early Christians only spoke Greek or Aramaic. I'm not sure what you mean by "copied" the name. "Etymology: Middle English sacrement, sacrament, from Old French & Late Latin; Old French, from Late Latin sacramentum, from Latin, oath of allegiance, obligation, from sacrare to consecrate"

no. forget the 'name' a term for it in ancient Greek Earth religion of Dionysos--from which much Christian symbolism was appropriated from, the term for sacraments was 'orgia', which both meant the ritual ecstatic abandonment ANd the actual 'wine' (ie., mixed with hallucinogenic herbs0 drunk by the celebrants.

What happened when that was reformed by the philosophical branch of the Orphics (see at google From Orphism to Gnosticsm), was the latter still used the sacrament, but diluted it, eventually phasing it out, and not CELEBRATING the experience of ecstasy, but using it as a form of 'katharsis' or 'purification. In other words they ascetically interpreted life to mean a 'trap' from which they must purify themselves and escape to their 'original home' the 'spirit'. This philosophy greatly influenced both Plato et al, and christianity

We know that Christianity is a weave of extracts from earlier mythologies and for certain the sacrament will be no different, just like virgin births, saviors, super heroes, miracles, gods, and the like. From a very brief search the sacrament concept seems to be about an inititiation ceremony, a rite of passage. Pretty much a ceremony to be performed as part of club membership.

If anyone has any detailed references to sacrament mythology then that would be interesting to hear.

The whole history of ritual of a community togthere and consuming a food, drink, substance, etc and ecstatically experiencing is PRIMAL. it is with the rise of the patriarchy that this freedom is more and more oppressed. Even today!

"The rite ..has an ecological function in the life of the group. The entheogenic or proprioceptive state induced [by partaking of the sacrament] is designed to foster perception of the group's or the individual's place in the world. The mythology, the words of the mother, calls up memories (mnemosyne-realization) of the evolutionary ecology [the myth IS the rite]"
(Shamanism and the Drug Propaganda: Patriarchy and the Drug War, by Dan Russell)

"During the 'cups', through entheogenic and erotic ecstasy, the dead earth was brought back to life. By dancing with the ghosts, ancient Eros, the fructifying power, was reborn.....the dead are Cthonioi, 'earth people'..............whatever the sacramental vehicle was for joining the dead in their spring resurrection, it wasn't distinguished from the food.....[this food of the dead] gives mana/wakan/orenda/menos (ibid)

The pharmakon, dionysos, was the herb eaten, sacrificed to satisfy the soul. The pharmakos, Pentheus, the herb's mythic double, atavistically, psychologically, identified with the herb, became the scapegoat sacrificed to satisfy the community, once the pharmakon was prohibited, once the community was convinced that healing and rebirth were second hand, not entheogenic, not sacramental, but sacrifical, political. The psychological transition was simultaneously political, religious and medical--none of the elements can be separated from one another (ibid)

no. forget the 'name' a term for it in ancient Greek Earth religion of Dionysos--from which much Christian symbolism was appropriated from, the term for sacraments was 'orgia', which both meant the ritual ecstatic abandonment ANd the actual 'wine' (ie., mixed with hallucinogenic herbs0 drunk by the celebrants.

To my knowledge, the term "origia" wasn't used either. Christians from that period, I believe, refered to the Eucharist as either Eucharista or simply "bread and wine."


What happened when that was reformed by the philosophical branch of the Orphics (see at google From Orphism to Gnosticsm), was the latter still used the sacrament, but diluted it, eventually phasing it out, and not CELEBRATING the experience of ecstasy, but using it as a form of 'katharsis' or 'purification. In other words they ascetically interpreted life to mean a 'trap' from which they must purify themselves and escape to their 'original home' the 'spirit'. This philosophy greatly influenced both Plato et al, and christianity

The use of bread as sacrificial wafers was common for Jews, and even during Abraham's time bread and wine were used as sacrifice.!

To my knowledge, the term "origia" wasn't used either. Christians from that period, I believe, refered to the Eucharist as either Eucharista or simply "bread and wine."

d__the word is spelt wrong in that passage--a typo. its corrct spelling is "orgia' where the English word 'orgy' comes from, and has been given a trivialzied prurient meaning of outrageous behaviour. But what it originally mean from the Greek earth religion of Dionysos was a ritual of sensual abandon, as explained in the passages i quoted in previous post.
The Dionysians also used bread and wine! but their wine was also laced with hallucinogenic herbs.
What hallucinogens do is disinhibit sensuality. The ancinet celebrants would associate this feeling with being 'possessed' by the god, Dionysos. But to understand this you have to understand who Dionysos is, and what 'he' represents.
He was the 'god of many names'. I.e., he has manny associations. These include the actual sacred hallucinogenic plant/dring/sacrament, son/lover of Goddess. Nature, god of masks (meaning that we dont really have A static self, we are a constatnly changing not-self of transitory masks we present to the world and ourselves. He was called 'Liber' the root meaning of the term 'liberation', the 'Loosener', god of dance, of theatre, and so on. so all of that one becomes 'possessed by. the original term from where it;'s been translated to possession, was from 'entheusiasm.

so, okinrus, i am trying to communicate to you that therer existed the primal idea of not WORSHIPPING an IDEA of 'God' but an ACTUAL experience of BEING 'god'. a sense of being more than one's ordinary self, which is really the real meaning of 'ec-stasis'.....i define it as feeling inside but also expanded outside the bodymind. Feeling more integrated with the environment/Nature in an ecstatic way

The use of bread as sacrificial wafers was common for Jews, and even during Abraham's time bread and wine were used as sacrifice.!
So, dig it Okinrus. the early christians were VERy aware of pagan ritual, and used the motifs and the rituals whilst amalgamting it to Judaism. Can you not see the competition of movements that offered direct experience/ecstasy??........But where the christians differ from EARTh religious ecstasy, is they take as their MAIN role model, Orphism (remember that overview from previous post), which is more acetically attuned. So the christians SECRET use of hallucinogenic sacramants is more geared to 'purification'....when even that becomes prohibited--ie., the actual ingestion of a hallucinogenic sacrament. then we are merely left with the dry symbols which are divisive anyway. Ie., the indoctrination of 'pure' versus' 'impure' 'light' versus 'dark'.......this manifests as prejudice by that mindset of people, Nature, and one's own natrual being

Being an ex-Catholic, I was led to believe that the importance of the Sacrament, the wafer and wine, was in TRANSUBSTANTIATION - the actual change of the wafer/wine into the actual body/blood of Christ.

Thus do Catholics extol the virtues of cannabilism. :D

Yet the more I speak to friends/relatives that are still Catholic, the more I realise they see it as nothing more than a symbol of the body/blood of their saviour - which it so obviously is to almost everyone else.

So which is it? Symbol or Cannibalism? Or is there another option that I'm missing?
And does believing it to be nothing more than a symbol reduce your standing in the eyes of your God compared to those who don't?

Being an ex-Catholic, I was led to believe that the importance of the Sacrament, the wafer and wine, was in TRANSUBSTANTIATION - the actual change of the wafer/wine into the actual body/blood of Christ.

d__when we analyze that word, we find trans-substance--the change into another substance. so look closely......all that approriation is doing is diluting the ORIGINAL meaning which is ACTULA change of body mind of actual PERSON eating and drinking a sacramnet that being hallucinogenic actually changes the substance of the person, sos they FEEL as if possesmsed by the 'god' they have ingested! ie., 'you' the Dionysian celebrant 'change into the body of Dionysos'...and as explained in previous post this change means a lot. it is not some limited IDEA of A idealized god, but Nature iself, for amongst 'his' many names he was god of Nature

so, what the Christians did--with their hallucinogen-missin 'sacrament' is dogmatize only the superficiality. basically you just get words! you eat, and dring the piffling portions handed out, ,,,haven waited in a queue, and then sheepishly retreat--'humbly'--to pew. and that....is THAT.

Thus do Catholics extol the virtues of cannabilism. :D

d__what do you mean?

Yet the more I speak to friends/relatives that are still Catholic, the more I realise they see it as nothing more than a symbol of the body/blood of their saviour - which it so obviously is to almost everyone else.

d__that's all it is. an empty symbolism with no SUBSTANCE

So which is it? Symbol or Cannibalism? Or is there another option that I'm missing?
And does believing it to be nothing more than a symbol reduce your standing in the eyes of your God compared to those who don't?

as i'vve said it is just symbolism. you aren't eating a 'god' as the Dionysians weren't--as in a flesh and bones god. you ARe eating the god in the form of vegetal matter, which could i spose include the notion of cannabilism, though i'd have to look at the definition of the term

the central point is that...you've been conned. the actual spiritual ecstasy has been denied to you be church and state.
and in our modern times, any mention of it and we get the ridicule of the Hippies. As though they were the ones who discovered the hallucinogenic experience.

Yet the more I speak to friends/relatives that are still Catholic, the more I realise they see it as nothing more than a symbol of the body/blood of their saviour - which it so obviously is to almost everyone else.

Neither. Cannibalism is eating dead flesh, but the Eucharist is God's living flesh.


And does believing it to be nothing more than a symbol reduce your standing in the eyes of your God compared to those who don't?

Well, not necessarily. But benefits of the Eucharist are proportional to the amount of trust you have in it. Someone who believes the Eucharist is only a symbol shouldn't really be receiving the Eucharist. The priest says "The Body of Christ" and the person receiving says "Amen". To receive while believing it to be a symbol is to consent to something they don't believe in.

which could mean you are just playing a game of words and symbols.
are you satisfied with that? either doing it, or giving 'THAT' up?

do you not feel a deeper need that you may have lost? or don't you really care?

okinrus: Cannibalism is eating dead flesh, but the Eucharist is God's living flesh.
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M*W: I used to believe this, too, until one day from the Sacristy of the High Altar at St. Peter's, I heard a little voice screaming to be freed.
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okinrus: But benefits of the Eucharist are proportional to the amount of trust you have in it.
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M*W: True, if you're a catholic, but then I realized that I, too, have a body of living flesh, and I should worship it.
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okinrus: Someone who believes the Eucharist is only a symbol shouldn't really be receiving the Eucharist. The priest says "The Body of Christ" and the person receiving says "Amen". To receive while believing it to be a symbol is to consent to something they don't believe in.
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M*W: I wanted to believe the Eucharist was an honest to goodness transubstantiation, but it was hard to when the wafer started to scream and wiggle around in my mouth.

M*W: I used to believe this, too, until one day from the Sacristy of the High Altar at St. Peter's, I heard a little voice screaming to be freed.

Freed from what?


M*W: True, if you're a catholic, but then I realized that I, too, have a body of living flesh, and I should worship it.

Well, by all means. Take pride in what you do, but don't have pride in yourself.

Strange thing to say, okrinus. Why shouldn't she take pride in herself?

Well, to have pride(and I don't mean the jolly kind) in oneself is wrong. It's like you acheiving something, and then believing your own greatness brought it about. Instead of rejoicing in your accomplishments, you rejoice in yourself and you sink.

okinrus: Freed from what?
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M*W: Freed from the deception of it all.
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okinrus: Well, by all means. Take pride in what you do, but don't have pride in yourself.
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M*W: I fully understand the difference.

"pride" is one of the "Seven Deadly Sins" which is also part of their guilting propaganda............!i AM proud to see through their spin

Being an ex-Catholic, I was led to believe that the importance of the Sacrament, the wafer and wine, was in TRANSUBSTANTIATION - the actual change of the wafer/wine into the actual body/blood of Christ.

Yet the more I speak to friends/relatives that are still Catholic, the more I realise they see it as nothing more than a symbol of the body/blood of their saviour - which it so obviously is to almost everyone else.

So which is it? Symbol or Cannibalism? Or is there another option that I'm missing?
And does believing it to be nothing more than a symbol reduce your standing in the eyes of your God compared to those who don't?

Catholic Doctrine absolutely insists that the Eucharist is the Real Blood and Real Body of Christ. There are numerous Eucharistic Miracles which demonstrate that very Fact.

The problem with many American Catholics is that they have been raised in a Protestant and Secular Culture. Back during the High Middle Ages when the Civilization of Christendom was entirely Catholic, vertically, horizonally and every other way, then every Catholic understood the Corpus Cristi -- that the Eucharist was the Real Blood and Body. But now people only know what they see on TV. I myself am a Convert to Catholicism, and my Sponsor had also been a Convert to Catholicism. We observed something. Most people born to Catholicism never paid much attention and know very little about it. They don't care. They never needed to care. It is like people born as American Citizens... they don't know anything about the Constitution except what Charlton Heston tells them -- that it is okay to own guns so they can kill Government Officials they don't like.

So it doesn't surprise me that these Catholics you speak of talk more like Protestants than Educated Catholics. They are Pickles in the Protestant Brine, and not much more can be expected of them. Afterall, 55% of American Catholic voted against the Catholic Candidate and for the Most Protestant Candidate that ever ran for the White House. They couldn't have done worse if they had voted for the Antichrist. And then with all of the Sex Scandal Bishops, the American Catholic Church is one huge giant collosal screw up. If I was the Vatican, I would decertify the entire United States of America and sign it over to Satan, and take the Write Off.

but the point Is love, that the so-called 'real body and blood ofC Christ' as stressed by the 'real' Catholic church WASN'T the real body and blood of Christ. It was just empty words and symbolism, as i have been trying to explore, and, actually, convince for the last 1,111 posts!
Now there is challanege and there is taboo. taboo pretends to not see. i am guessing that many refuse to see what i am saying

please, i can quite understand this convenient overlook if you haven;t had the hallucinogenic experience and so cant dig what all the fuss is about (i have been there pre-takin it myself)....but. surely this must spark SOME interest, seeing it is THe CENTRAL Holy Sacrement an all. nt only for Christianity, but throughout mythic meanings of 'Nectar' and 'Fruit', etc etc etc......all else is just words and fabrication

.....to achieve that Moral and Spiritual Perfection which could allow us to be Acquitted when we stand before Christ, that Dreadful Judge who Remembers Humanity primarily for the Pain and Suffering it inflicted upon Himself.

that most be a terrible burden for you to bare.

but the point Is love, that the so-called 'real body and blood ofC Christ' as stressed by the 'real' Catholic church WASN'T the real body and blood of Christ. It was just empty words and symbolism, as i have been trying to explore, and, actually, convince for the last 1,111 posts!
Now there is challanege and there is taboo. taboo pretends to not see. i am guessing that many refuse to see what i am saying

please, i can quite understand this convenient overlook if you haven;t had the hallucinogenic experience and so cant dig what all the fuss is about (i have been there pre-takin it myself)....but. surely this must spark SOME interest, seeing it is THe CENTRAL Holy Sacrement an all. nt only for Christianity, but throughout mythic meanings of 'Nectar' and 'Fruit', etc etc etc......all else is just words and fabrication

you mean magic mushrooms?

Leo,

I agree that protestants generally de-emphasize the importance of the eucharist. Although I think it is disappointing, the emphasis likely shifted in response to the original catholic idea that you would end up in hell once the church stopped administering it to you. Maybe that is where my grandfather is now, since he did get a divorce. I was raised catholic. That was the first religion I walked away from. If I wanted a bunch of rules, I could convert to judaism. Ceremonies don't make you free, the truth does.

Regarding your attribution of the de-emphasis of the eucharist to Pauline doctrine - Paul could have been commenting on the idea of of non-christians trying to use the sacrament as a means for salvation, which, as you say, is not the point. It would be like someone going to church to get their wafer, and ignoring the rest of the proceedings, and their relationship to God, which probably happens.

DUENDY, If you perform a ceremony, and do your hallucinogens in remembrance of God, other religions have little basis to condemn you. However, don't pretend that this makes every trip sacred. Eating just any old bread and wine, for the prupose of filling your belly, isn't a sacrament.

Edit - admission - A goblet of wine with a sprinkle of herbs sounds great. It's spiritual value is somewhat dubious to me, but as a "zen" meditation... wow. However, I am trying to hold onto concrete "reality" and find my "trip" in it somehow.

you mean magic mushrooms?

YES!....and all other hallucinogenic plants and substances that have been the centre of communal religious ritual, or spiritual ritual since time immemorial

So it peeves me when i hear yet still the serious notion that a sacrament that is merely ordinary bread and wine is covered over with fancy words prefaced with caps pertaining to describe ther real source of inspiration. to me that is phony and self-defeating, and NOT scientific

OK. admit you dont take it, or dont agree with it etc, let's discuss. but don't HIDe from exploring about this. Considering the total chaos in our culture today. the so-called religion collapsing, the secual world in everyones face, crime, war, loads of people on meds, including children pushed them to fit in to their indoctrinating schooling system

I reckon we have to look at what we fear. this war on drug. and what it means eregarding spirituality

so, yeah, magic mushrooms etc...heh

the truth does.



DUENDY, If you perform a ceremony, and do your hallucinogens in remembrance of God, other religions have little basis to condemn you. However, don't pretend that this makes every trip sacred. Eating just any old bread and wine, for the prupose of filling your belly, isn't a sacrament.

d__well in Dionysian earth religious ritual, it wasn't 'rememberance' of god but being possessed by god. so you are in process. Ecstasy. That is what patriarchal culture suppresses. and like any emotion it wants out.
So it depends what you want and mean from and by spirituality. are you using your reason to look closely at the religions that TOLERATE --as you say--halluinogenic ritual (err, which ones exactly?)...and see what their dogma is?. cause we can express our ecstasy and use reason. isn't this that is NEEDED? what do you say?

(((())))))((((((((((
Edit - admission - A goblet of wine with a sprinkle of herbs sounds great. It's spiritual value is somewhat dubious to me, but as a "zen" meditation... wow. However, I am trying to hold onto concrete "reality" and find my "trip" in it somehow.

Ok lets discuss that too.
would you say Zen was ecstatic?

Although I think it is disappointing, the emphasis likely shifted in response to the original catholic idea that you would end up in hell once the church stopped administering it to you.

Catholics don't believe this.


Regarding your attribution of the de-emphasis of the eucharist to Pauline doctrine - Paul could have been commenting on the idea of of non-christians trying to use the sacrament as a means for salvation, which, as you say, is not the point. It would be like someone going to church to get their wafer, and ignoring the rest of the proceedings, and their relationship to God, which probably happens.

Paul doesn't deemphasize the Eucharist. He is the only Bible author that directly relates early Christian practice on the matter. The gospels don't do so directly.

YES!....and all other hallucinogenic plants and substances that have been the centre of communal religious ritual, or spiritual ritual since time immemorial

So it peeves me when i hear yet still the serious notion that a sacrament that is merely ordinary bread and wine is covered over with fancy words prefaced with caps pertaining to describe ther real source of inspiration. to me that is phony and self-defeating, and NOT scientific

OK. admit you dont take it, or dont agree with it etc, let's discuss. but don't HIDe from exploring about this. Considering the total chaos in our culture today. the so-called religion collapsing, the secual world in everyones face, crime, war, loads of people on meds, including children pushed them to fit in to their indoctrinating schooling system

I reckon we have to look at what we fear. this war on drug. and what it means eregarding spirituality

so, yeah, magic mushrooms etc...heh


drugs are bad, we need to educate our children. i was into mushies, trips, ecstasy, cannibis when i was a teenager, by my mid 20's i had a serious cocaine habit. i know a lot of people that gotten in to harder drugs and really messed up their lifes, some of my school friends, are in jail for various drug related crimes including murder. i dont think drugs are are at all spiritual for me they are totally chemical. spirituality is in your soul whether your stoned or not.

Catholics don't believe this.
Did they not believe it during the time of the protestant reformation? I don't know, but can only imagine the doctrines were more and more exclusionary as you go back into history. Weren't political leaders controlled by the threat of excommunication and the with-holding of the sacraments? There is that old story about the king crawling on his knees in the snow for forgiveness, i can't remember the names (or maybe that was a pope crawling, I doubt that though.)
Also, I know my grandmother was very concerned that they were not allowed a church wedding and that my grandfather reacted against that, and there were quite possibly eternal repercussions for his soul. Sad, but true.

Paul doesn't deemphasize the Eucharist. He is the only Bible author that directly relates early Christian practice on the matter. The gospels don't do so directly.
I was commenting on this -
Yes, that Enemy of All True Christianity, Paul, is somewhat responsible here. Remember in Corinthians where Paul quite insists that the Holy Sacrament is entirely subjective, and will likely do more harm than good, becoming a poison if taken by a sinner, and in his next breath declaring all Christians to be unworthy sinners. It was a deadly formula which had ever since caused Christians to shy away from the Holy Sacrament – for the Protestants to fearfully dismiss it almost entirely, and for the Catholics to put the Holy Sacrament under the strictest restrictions.

DUENDY, I think the "zen" meditation has a major emphasis in removing your focus from the static and BS that is ubiquitous in interaction with society. Hallucinogens would obviously move one's viewpoint to another place. I think there may be some value in both of these approaches, as far as allowing your mind some space to focus on "higher", or, for you, more "natural", things. I guess there are some negatives I associate with drug use, a major one being the ease with which it can change your perspective. It seems to me un-natural to achieve something so important so easily, but that may just be a fault in my reasoning. Another negative is the brain damage most drugs cause.
Like I asked before - do you participate in a ritual? Do you think that every time somebody drops acid, they are being possessed by God?

but the point Is love, that the so-called 'real body and blood ofC Christ' as stressed by the 'real' Catholic church WASN'T the real body and blood of Christ. It was just empty words and symbolism, as i have been trying to explore, and, actually, convince for the last 1,111 posts!
This is surely just a matter of "faith"?
As all religion surely is.
Catholics believe in transubstantiation - the actual conversion from wafer/wine to body/blood - and have done since it was introduced as a concept in the 12th Century. Does this make it any less a matter of faith than belief in their God? Or anyone else's belief in their own God?


please, i can quite understand this convenient overlook if you haven;t had the hallucinogenic experience and so cant dig what all the fuss is about (i have been there pre-takin it myself)....but. surely this must spark SOME interest, seeing it is THe CENTRAL Holy Sacrement an all. nt only for Christianity, but throughout mythic meanings of 'Nectar' and 'Fruit', etc etc etc......all else is just words and fabrication
And what about all christian sects that don't require the individuals to take the Holy Sacrement?
Are these to be deemed lesser religions?

Did they not believe it during the time of the protestant reformation?

No, at the official position wouldn't be so. They'll never to say "this person's surely going to Hell" because to do so would be to limit God's grace.


Weren't political leaders controlled by the threat of excommunication and the with-holding of the sacraments?

Yes, but they still are today. A Catholic politician cannot remain Catholic while grossly violating natural law or Catholic doctrine.


There is that old story about the king crawling on his knees in the snow for forgiveness, i can't remember the names (or maybe that was a pope crawling, I doubt that though.)

The earliest example I know of is when St. Ambrose basically forced the emperor to repent for killing a thousand men.


Also, I know my grandmother was very concerned that they were not allowed a church wedding and that my grandfather reacted against that, and there were quite possibly eternal repercussions for his soul. Sad, but true.

There are certain situations where the Church won't marry a couple. For instance, the Church won't recognize a divorce, and won't do a marriage unless if the prior marriage was annulled, which is basically showing the prior marriage did not happen. But this has nothing to do with the eternal state of those involved. It's a grave matter, certainly, but nothing more can be said about it.


I was commenting on this -

Paul denied the efficacy of the Eucharist when those partaking did not respect the body of our Lord, telling the Corintheans that they were sick because their gatherings were disrespectful.

drugs are bad, we need to educate our children.

d__yes, i completely agree we have to educate our children, but the 'drugs is bad' line isn't having an effect. they lugh at it cause they ALSO know drugs feel good TOO. so there has to be another way. a more honest and less patronizing way, which takes research and integrity.

i was into mushies, trips, ecstasy, cannibis when i was a teenager, by my mid 20's i had a serious cocaine habit.

d__well, sorry for your experience. but it has not been so for me and for others. Yes, i have tried coke--neverbought--and didn't like it. never knew what all the fuss is about. is a completely different drug than hallucinogens and marijuana, ANd cocoa leaf

i know a lot of people that gotten in to harder drugs and really messed up their lifes, some of my school friends, are in jail for various drug related crimes including murder. i dont think drugs are are at all spiritual for me they are totally chemical. spirituality is in your soul whether your stoned or not.

Well you are getting mixed up equating hard drugs with hallucinogens. When yo look into this --well what i have found is this. that when Indigenous cultures--who would have used hallucinogenic sacraments as part of their spirituality-- have ben taken over by the oppressive mindset, then THAt is when all MEANING is stripped from their lives and usually this is where hard drugs come into the scene. This pattern has happened to many Native American peoples
And this is why i am wanting to discuss all about this. because what has relatvely recently happened to them has happened to us also!

DUENDY, I think the "zen" meditation has a major emphasis in removing your focus from the static and BS that is ubiquitous in interaction with society. Hallucinogens would obviously move one's viewpoint to another place. I think there may be some value in both of these approaches, as far as allowing your mind some space to focus on "higher", or, for you, more "natural", things. I guess there are some negatives I associate with drug use, a major one being the ease with which it can change your perspective.

d__that 'worry' always reminds me of the work ethic. the in -grained western-ish idea (though Japanes culture has it BIG time. people have been know to die there quite often from the 'duty' of over-work) that one cannot get a 'free-lunch'. so that anything that comes 'easy' must be questionably. Well apart from eating or drinking the sacrament. the experience may be FAr from easy. it quakes the very soul. it is the real deal. it was around LONg before Zen and Buddhism.

It seems to me un-natural to achieve something so important so easily, but that may just be a fault in my reasoning. Another negative is the brain damage most drugs cause.

d__the propagand about hallucinogens causing brain damage is much to do with the war on drugs spin. of course abusing ANYTHINg will may cause adverse effects. this is why it is very reasonable for us to explore all about this, for willy nilly the secret's out, and many youths DO take this stuff etc like they have been brought up watching ad world, and video games etc. as a commodity,. many have ziltch idea about the LONG history of the sacramant. i feel it is intelligent to explore all this and communicat about it so there WILL be respect for the partaking of these sacraments.
If i remember, i seem to recall you viewing Tim Leary of having suffered brain damage via LSD?....and if you recall i say that they WAY he advocated its use was encapsulated in the idea of all-the-time bliss which is preached by Eastern religions. that i dont believe. we cannot have all-the-time bliss. but we DO need insight into the Intelligence of Nature. and hallucinogens wisely used are the key supreme. They are Nature's Fruit form age immemorial. where all of myth and religion and folklore has been inspired from. so it's worthwhile gettin yer head round this

Like I asked before - do you participate in a ritual? Do you think that every time somebody drops acid, they are being possessed by God?

No. some kids drop em 5 at a time. some drip 200 shrooms. all silly macho behaviour and a wanting for a disneyesqu entertianment....all similar to the shit spewed out by TV media culture. but having said that. i have said that i feel that how some ancient cults used them including the Orphics and Christians (very early and secret) was also not good, in that their dogmas were DIVISIVE and not Nature oriented. THat has to be explored to. you dont do it by ignoring about it

And what about all christian sects that don't require the individuals to take the Holy Sacrement?
Are these to be deemed lesser religions?

The individual has too ask their self. what do THEY want. if you are happy standing in a church mouthing mothy bally old hymns, and listening to some old priest whining on the hundredth time some worn out old cliche from the Bible at you....etc. if THAt is what you believe is spirituality, then nothin i say will change you. but if you have ANY hint there might be more to it. something INCREDIBLY alive, and full of meaning, then maybe some of what i am saying may park off an interest for you to explore for your self further

As a proponent of Catholicism I think I have largely been remiss in not emphasizing enough the importance of the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ in the Bread and Wine of the Holy Mass. One of Catholicism’s great Prophets and Visionaries, Saint John Bosco, saw in a Vision that the Catholic Church would be surrounded and pounded by enemies until, with the Death of a Beleaguered Pope (which may well refer to Pope John Paul II)

Ok!! so were in the skeem of things did molesting kids became "the in thing to do?. :eek: :bugeye:

F*ck the catholics they are going down!!!! seducing young boys, this is nothing new folkes it has been going on for centuries!! the hell with these malefactors of life!!.

:mad:

Godless.

Ok!! so were in the skeem of things did molesting kids became "the in thing to do?. :eek: :bugeye:

F*ck the catholics they are going down!!!! seducing young boys, this is nothing new folkes it has been going on for centuries!! the hell with these malefactors of life!!.

:mad:

Godless.

oh come on!

be fair,
catholics dont have a monopoly on child abuse it happens in christian parishes too.

any body any thoughts on why this happens.

....... when all MEANING is stripped from their lives and usually this is where hard drugs come into the scene. This pattern has happened to many Native American peoples
And this is why i am wanting to discuss all about this. because what has relatvely recently happened to them has happened to us also!

this pattern happens in western culture. it is not just with hard drugs. alcohol and cigarettes, prostitution, etc. these are self destructive behaviours that people seek solace in, because their lives have been devalued by the 'oppressive mindset'

dont know much about native americans though, suppose they turn to the pipe.

okinrus: Paul doesn't deemphasize the Eucharist. He is the only Bible author that directly relates early Christian practice on the matter. The gospels don't do so directly.
*************
M*W: Well, okinrus, for once we agree on something! You are right, Paul created the idea of the "body and blood" ritual, but he wrote that Jesus, himself, started the practice. Truthfully, however, it was probably initiated by the Essene community where Jesus was a member. As you may be aware, the "body and blood" rituals were sexual rites of purification. Not that sex was condemned or considered evil -- the Essenes or Naasenes, whatever their name, they considered sexual practices to bring purification.

I am curious, however, if these ancient sexual rites using semen and blood could somehow be repressed in the priesthood for millenia and now coming out in the perversion we are seeing in the Catholic Church?

What gets me is that the Catholic priests are getting all the media coverage when this has gone on in every christian sect.

QUOTE: "As a proponent of Catholicism I think I have largely been remiss in not emphasizing enough the importance of the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ in the Bread and Wine of the Holy Mass. One of Catholicism’s great Prophets and Visionaries, Saint John Bosco, saw in a Vision that the Catholic Church would be surrounded and pounded by enemies until, with the Death of a Beleaguered Pope (which may well refer to Pope John Paul II)"
*************
M*W: I've read that it will be two popes down the road. Although it could be JPII or the next one. With christianity already in decline mode, we'll just have to wait and see. Malachi Martin, a former Jesuit, has written several authoritative books on The Vatican, the Popes, and the Fall of the Church.

BTW, last night on Houston news, we've had a case of child molestation by a local priest. I was happy to hear that our Archbishop, Joseph Fiorenza, did the right thing and called the police.

ellion: oh come on! be fair, catholics dont have a monopoly on child abuse it happens in christian parishes too. any body any thoughts on why this happens.
*************
M*W: For starters, being a man of the cloth is the perfect cover-up for the perverted tendencies ALREADY in the minds of the perps! That's why they pursue a vocation in the clergy. It really doesn't happen just because a momentary opportunity arises. Perversions are embedded in the soul.

BTW, did anyone watch the expose last night on Michael Jackson? It was definitely incriminating.

this pattern happens in western culture. it is not just with hard drugs. alcohol and cigarettes, prostitution, etc. these are self destructive behaviours that people seek solace in, because their lives have been devalued by the 'oppressive mindset'

d__Exactly, and it breaks your heart to realize it. not only for yourself but for others. the whole scene. when people are made to feel like worthless shit. when told by the same mindest oppressing them they are merely biochemical machines, and there is no meaning to life, what the fku does THAt do to you. it makes you want to escape. many peopel dont want to do the biggie, so they slow suicide.
It's We who put up with this shit. it take s two. the oppressors and the oppressed to tang. If we start wakin up to their game, or the game, we have a CHOICE to really change it

dont know much about native americans though, suppose they turn to the pipe.

i've read they DId have a very strong psychoactive tobacco, yet there were no, if any, cases of cnacer. this is cause the baccy hadn't been commodified by a commercial culture and pushed on people ....they used it in a ritualstic scred manner. not a 60perday manner. whilst shovelin down crappy fatty sugary shit food and juice....and breathin in pollution from industry and traffic...and, the rest of the stress

ellion: oh come on! be fair, catholics dont have a monopoly on child abuse it happens in christian parishes too. any body any thoughts on why this happens.
*************
M*W: For starters, being a man of the cloth is the perfect cover-up for the perverted tendencies ALREADY in the minds of the perps! That's why they pursue a vocation in the clergy. It really doesn't happen just because a momentary opportunity arises. Perversions are embedded in the soul.

BTW, did anyone watch the expose last night on Michael Jackson? It was definitely incriminating.

their is this freudian theory, not a big fan of freud but the theory makes sense.
try and brief it.
all people have a sexual intsinct, natural urges which need to be expressed. when these instincts are repressed as is the case with religious institutions, the body gets confused messages from the different commands. i.e. 'i want sex'> 'i cant have sex'> 'sex is nice'> 'sex is dirty' >blah >blah >inner dialogue> blah.
this creates an extreme sexual tension which builds up until it finds expression often in a distorted and perverted way. to be fair this is only in the extreme cases some people do have a sensible attitude toward their sexuality, and can find a healthy way to express it. but unfortunately not every one.

i've read they DId have a very strong psychoactive tobacco, yet there were no, if any, cases of cancer. this is cause the baccy hadn't been commodified by a commercial culture and pushed on people ....they used it in a ritualstic scred manner. not a 60perday manner. whilst shovelin down crappy fatty sugary shit food and juice....and breathin in pollution from industry and traffic...and, the rest of the stress

that makes sense. did you ever read carlos castaneda? i'm geussing you would feel right at home with his idea's.

ellion: their is this freudian theory, not a big fan of freud but the theory makes sense. try and brief it. all people have a sexual intsinct, natural urges which need to be expressed. when these instincts are repressed as is the case with religious institutions, the body gets confused messages from the different commands. i.e. 'i want sex'> 'i cant have sex'> 'sex is nice'> 'sex is dirty' >blah >blah >inner dialogue> blah.
this creates an extreme sexual tension which builds up until it finds expression often in a distorted and perverted way. to be fair this is only in the extreme cases some people do have a sensible attitude toward their sexuality, and can find a healthy way to express it. but unfortunately not every one.
*************
M*W: Yes, this is Freud's theory, and I believe his theory has been proven. Thanks.

Well I don't know about Freud! never did read any of his material.

But I can tell you why men of the cloth, or of any religious denomination that happens to be "authoritative" in the parish, church, or congregation. The reason they engage in these sexual perversions is there authoritative persuation, they lie to kids, they lie to the ingnorance of parishners that are young and seduce their minds and body!. They they threaten with "hell" or you think they will believe you?. type of scicho crap.

Anyhow they do it, because they feel they can get away with it, they are allready perverted, like M*W explains they hide behind their cloth, or parish, of authority they have done it for a long time and gotten away with it. The truth is they are deprived of sexual gratification so they seek inosent victims for their gratification.

People like teachers, doctors, preachers, authorative figures of buisnessess or groups tend to have this notion that they can get away with sexual harrasment, rape, or pedophilia. Now I know that all people in these positions dont think like this, but this is were they tend to come aquainted with volnerable victims so the pervs seek these positions as well.

Godless.

And the most jacked up thing about it is, why can't they just do something they are not permitted to do that is more normal, like have normal sex, or even go have adult homosex, that should be bad enough to them.
This type of abuse is beyond wrong, but i guess we knew that already.

they deny themselves for god's sake. weird, we are created in such a way that things that are good for us are pleasurable. socializing, love, sex, humour, biscuits etc, are all pleasurable things that we need because they are naturally good for us.

i dont think all these people seek positions where they can abuse their power, some do of course. most likely these people find themselves in positions were they believe they have to deny their instincts, the complexes are then created by the denial, repression and distortion of their natural instincts. if they allowed themselves to be human they would be less likely to fall into sin (their own self created hell).

I have read that the Christian cult is THe worst ever for demonizing sexuality.
When you make sex wrong and dirty you fetishize it. look at the Victorian age. they used to cover up the legs of furniture cause it reminded them of limbs--which on people they covered up.

you can see this pattern of behaviour gloabally thoughout patriachal thinking. for example in Indian 'one point awareness' Yoga, Yogis were told not to even LOOK at Nature for fear of enticing them to sexuality. for when you look at trees, hills etc we DO see sensual curves, and shapes that resemble sexual organis, no. so they thought it best to foocus their attention inwardly on one poinnt so as to escape sensuality. crazy but true

with the frocked priest it's the same
but what these belief systems dont accept is DEPTH. that we are NOt just a superfical one-layer, we are fathomless like Nature, and if we dam up energy it WILl out. and in ways that are distorted such as child abuse as has been shown in Christianity's dark side. the one the oficals have tried to cover up and deny, cause it exposes the whole sorry charade

that makes sense. did you ever read carlos castaneda? i'm geussing you would feel right at home with his idea's.

Many years back i was into him. Then i found this book titled The Power and the Allegory, by Richard de Mille, and found out the Castenada show was all a hoax.

It is also misogynistic as the main enmies in his myth are females witches. this prejuedice is shared in male oriented shamanism wayyyy back

.......that we are NOt just a superfical one-layer, we are fathomless like Nature, and if we dam up energy it WILl out......


i think this is it exactly.