Native Americans were victims of an invasion , persecuted and murdered for 3 centuries by American colonials they even had a special sinister name for this policy - manifest destiny - and today Native Americans exist on welfare dependant reservations that are home to alcoholism and unemployment your misery continues ! African Americans likewise were forcefully brought to America in chains and spent 2 centuries in slavery . And when slavery ended spent another century as legally enforced 2nd class citizens . Today African Americans exist in welfare dependant slums racked with crime, drugs and unemployment , your misery continues ! Your misery means nothing and is forgotten in your country this is proven by the final slap in the face of the Holacaust memorial museum in Washington DC which is a huge building , costing many millions to erect , and is full of artifacts of when Jews were hunted down and exterminated in Europe ! so why is this event which is European history treated so lavishly ? why isn-t it in Europe ! I say march down there , all of you , invade that building clean it OUT ! and put in your momentos of your American suffering ! That is your building !

And my head kinda hurts! I demand recompense! Besides! When I was in second grade, little Timmy Wazenhutszky said that I had cooties because I was a girl! Sexist pigs, where is my freedom!

What kind of artifacts? Jew head on a stick? Twins sewn together back to back? Do tell.

And what "momentos" would you replace them with? Indian head on a stick?

But I wouldn't be against the idea of some type of national museum or monument for the Natives. They got a rough treatment. But, hey, what can you do?

And my head kinda hurts! I demand recompense! Besides! When I was in second grade, little Timmy Wazenhutszky said that I had cooties because I was a girl! Sexist pigs, where is my freedom!
Thats called killing a thread .

What kind of artifacts? Jew head on a stick? Twins sewn together back to back? Do tell.

And what "momentos" would you replace them with? Indian head on a stick?

But I wouldn't be against the idea of some type of national museum or monument for the Natives. They got a rough treatment. But, hey, what can you do?
Gee well go figure ... photgraphs of their ' rough treatment ' , segregation era literature , Indian head on a stick ? dont know how about shrunken head on a stick .

Ok, so your point is that blacks and indians should go down and loot the museum and then leave their own crap behind? Kind of like some weird swap? Why don't you instead put your energies into getting support for some kind of national museum or monument for yourselves? There's the crazy horse monument in the black hills. Maybe they'll finish it someday. I don't think it's exactly national though. The funding is pretty sketchy.

I wish I were an indian or at least had some indian blood, I could go to school for next to nothing. Why do indians remain on the reservation when they have such an advantage? That's always confused me. I imagine it's possible that their earlier education is not up to the task of getting them ready for college, but that would be another issue altogether.

Kind of like some weird swap?
Weird swap ? Jesus dont you find it odd as I pointed out that a museum dedicated to a European event gets a lavishly funded museum in America of all places !
I wish I were an indian or at least had some indian blood, I could go to school for next to nothing. Why do indians remain on the reservation when they have such an advantage? That's always confused me. I imagine it's possible that their earlier education is not up to the task of getting them ready for college, but that would be another issue altogether.
Oh well that explains it no need replying .

Do you have a link to something that details where the money comes from? I would think much of it would be donations, etc. But even if every dime of it was taxpayer money, I still say you should try to get your own not go after someone elses.

I would think that it has a place here, perhaps because so many jews fled here. I have no strong feelings on whether it should be here or not, but it is and that's that.

And on the reservation education system. I mean no insults here. I meant a valid question. Is reservation schooling inadequate? Even if it were, with the cheap college tuition, indians could go to school as long as it takes. Become highly educated. Bring their new economical and political clout to bear upon the problems facing them. Do you realize how much college costs these days? Most people go into debt for years to get an education.

Welcome to the forums by the way. :)

Instead of disparaging a memorial to one the greatest horrors of our modern time, why don't you suggest a memorial for the Indians, or African slaves? There are memorials in Europe at many of the concentration camps. The thing with the Indians is problematic, though, since Indian tribes were often at war with each other, invading other's territory, murdering, raping, and taking slaves. The expansion into America was tragic, but inevitable, the hunter-gatherer way of life is obsolete. How about a memorial for the Neaderthals? ...or the Wooly Mammoth? ...

Dear Brian:

I totally agree with your original post, I refer you to ver famous book written by famous jewish writerN, orman Finkelstein. The book is called: THE HOLOCAUST INDUSTRY:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/id44.htm

...today Native Americans exist on welfare dependant reservations that are home to alcoholism and unemployment your misery continues ! African Americans likewise were forcefully brought to America in chains and spent 2 centuries in slavery . And when slavery ended spent another century as legally enforced 2nd class citizens . Today African Americans exist in welfare dependant slums racked with crime, drugs and unemployment , your misery continues !
Are you speaking on behalf of all Native Americans and African Americans? They are, believe it or not, free to choose their lifestyles. Some Native Americans choose to become rich by running casinos in California... Some African Americans choose to be U.S. President Security Advisor or to run the U.S. Department of State...

Dear Brian:

I totally agree with your original post, I refer you to ver famous book written by famous jewish writerN, orman Finkelstein.
This is the first time I see you address someone with "Dear". It must be because you two think so much alike. If this Finkelstein is famous, I have never heard of him so if you think that your approval of his writing makes him famous, think again!

Both of you,
Stop making me laugh! :D :D raise to the power of one million.

Built on land donated by the federal government and funded with more than 200,000 private donations, the Museum is the product of a strong partnership between the government and private philanthropy. As required by law, all funds for planning, constructing and equipping the Museum were raised exclusively from private, tax deductible contributions.

Futhermore:

The Committee on Conscience of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (http://www.ushmm.org/)'s mandate is . . .to alert the national conscience, influence policy makers, and stimulate worldwide action to confront and work to halt acts of genocide or related crimes against humanity . . . It has been said that 'conscience whispers while interest screams aloud.' In a world where the clamor of interests often prevails, the Committee seeks to amplify the voice of conscience.

Instead of disparaging a memorial to one the greatest horrors of our modern time, why don't you suggest a memorial for the Indians, or African slaves?
No I was questioning why a museum to a European horror is in America and why with 4 centuries of native/afro American horror there is no museum to remember their horror .
There are memorials in Europe at many of the concentration camps.
And thats where they should be .
The thing with the Indians is problematic, though, since Indian tribes were often at war with each other, invading other's territory, murdering, raping, and taking slaves.
And Europeans did not act in such a way ?
The expansion into America was tragic, but inevitable, the hunter-gatherer way of life is obsolete. How about a memorial for the Neaderthals? ...or the Wooly Mammoth? ...
And here you seem to be excusing and justifying this part of history .

Dear Brian:

I totally agree with your original post, I refer you to ver famous book written by famous jewish writerN, orman Finkelstein. The book is called: THE HOLOCAUST INDUSTRY:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/id44.htm
I have read that book I believe Normans literature should be read by all Jew's especially the one's who defend Zionism . Did you know Norman Finklestein has lost his job at the university .... hmmmm saw that coming .

Are you speaking on behalf of all Native Americans and African Americans? They are, believe it or not, free to choose their lifestyles. Some Native Americans choose to become rich by running casinos in California... Some African Americans choose to be U.S. President Security Advisor or to run the U.S. Department of State...
Thats not what my post is about you seem to be making excuses as to havng a Holacaust museum in America . I live in Australia our treatment of the Aborigines was far worse than Americas , up until 1965 Aborigines were not allowed in the cities ! yet there is not 1 museum or memorial in Australia to remind people and relate to White Australians what we did . Reading replies here I see the same problem with white Americans we have too both realise the crimes our ancestors did by denying we are culpable .

Welcome to the forums by the way. :)
Thanks :)

And here you seem to be excusing and justifying this part of history .

I'm just saying that the clash of cultures between aboriginal people and modern societies occured in many places around the world and was inevitable. It is not a contest though, both the holocaust and the plight of Indians were tragedies, but they were qualitatively different. It is unrealistic to think that, once discovered, the small Indian population would be able to keep the entire continent to themselves.

No I was questioning why a museum to a European horror is in America and why with 4 centuries of native/afro American horror there is no museum to remember their horror .
The Smithsonian's Anacostia Museum and Center for African-American History and Culture (http://anacostia.si.edu/)

And thats where they should be .
Why isn't it important to remember the holocaust in America? There are alot of Jews here.

And Europeans did not act in such a way ?
I don't believe the assimilated Jewish population attacked fellow Europeans, in spite of the fact that they were often attacked.

I'm just saying that the clash of cultures between aboriginal people and modern societies occured in many places around the world and was inevitable. It is not a contest though, both the holocaust and the plight of Indians were tragedies, but they were qualitatively different. It is unrealistic to think that, once discovered, the small Indian population would be able to keep the entire continent to themselves.
Agreed Human history is one of continual migrations , conquests and assimilations. As for the Holacaust there was nothing peculiar or unique about it its a common event . it seems too me this museum as like the Berlin memorial is used as a propaganda tool for the benefit of Israel existence .
The Smithsonian's Anacostia Museum and Center for African-American History and Culture (http://anacostia.si.edu/)
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v15/v15n2p10_Okeefe.html
Why isn't it important to remember the holocaust in America?
Why isnt it important that the Native/Afro American Holacaust is remebered ?
There are alot of Jews here.
As well as a lot of Irish I dont see any Irish famine Museums in America .
I don't believe the assimilated Jewish population attacked fellow Europeans, in spite of the fact that they were often attacked.
You stated Native americans attacked and enslaved each other I replied that was a common human trait .

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v15/v15n2p10_Okeefe.html

I'm behind a firewall at my company, and that site is restricted due to HATE SPEECH.

As for the Holacaust there was nothing peculiar or unique about it its a common event . it seems too me this museum as like the Berlin memorial is used as a propaganda tool for the benefit of Israel existence .

Although clashes between cultures is common, the holocaust was indeed unique in all of human history in that it made use of mass production techniques to kill millions of people within their own society. Obviously, you have made your mind up already, since you don't bother to find out for yourself why this event was unique. Despite these things being common in human history, it is still important to work towards peace. If you think it is a propaganda tool, you are right, propaganda can be used for good as well as evil. Propaganda is:
The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.

Why isnt it important that the Native/Afro American Holacaust is remebered ? The history of African-American slaves is remembered, a search on google will turn up many such museums.

As well as a lot of Irish I dont see any Irish famine Museums in America . Maybe you should start one, if you are so concerned. Never mind, some thoughtful Americans already did.

http://www.irishamericanheritagemuseum.org/
http://www.dungarvanmuseum.org/exhibit/web/Display/article/33/
http://www.iaci-usa.org/museum.html

What is so unique about mass murder in human history ? Why did Jew's die in a more spectacular way than Armenians ? Was it because they were murdered in a more sophisticated way the native aboriginal peoples ? What is so unique about the Holacaust that it deserves museums worldwide dedicated in its remembrance , billions in compensation to be paid out , university courses dedicated to it , films made about it , countless books authored about it . Yet the recent genocidal event in Rwanda rates paragraghs in newspapers .....

The fact that mass murder itself is not unique in human history is all the more reason to have a museum, a university course, films, books, etc... The genocide in Rawanda was pretty horrible as well, and should likewise be a subject of memorials, museums, films, courses, etc... But, the Jews were not rebelling against the Germans, the Jews were not massed in the northern territory with rifles and machetes, the death of the Jews could not be mistaken for civil war, the Rawandans were not systematically starved to death in Ghettos, the Rawandans were for the most part not tortured, or used for slave labor, or their body parts used as raw material for industrial processes, or forced to burn their relatives alive, and the total death toll was about 10% what happened in Germany. Not to belittle the tragedy of the Rawandans, but the holocaust was the largest genecide in recent history. I suggest you visit the holocaust museum, (and please do try to spell it right), or at least, visit the website. The genocide in Rawanda was the subject of several TV programs recently, notably Frontline. I find it strange that you would comment on the state of American media, since you are in Australia. The holocaust was not simply the product of cultural strife, but an example of what horrors can happen to you too, when you let facism arise in your government.

Brian,

If you live in Australia, why are you so concerned about American museums? Why don't you worry about Australian museums instead? Are there any multimillion dollar aborigine museum/monuments? If so, maybe they'd give you a job and you could feel like you're doing something worthwhile with your life.

By the way, Spidergoat cleared up the funding issue. The land was donated by the feds, but the money came from private donations. Is it any wonder that they managed to get the money to build it? After all, who runs the diamond business?

I still wish I were an Indian, I'd probably go to school the rest of my life. Of course, that may not do much for folks back at the res, but I would be happy.

But, the Jews were not rebelling against the Germans, The natives of North and South America likewise were not rebelling against Europe .
the Jews were not massed in the northern territory with rifles and machetes, The natives of North and South America likewise were not threatening Europe .
the death of the Jews could not be mistaken for civil war,Likewise with the Native Americans .
systematically starved to death in Ghettos,
Reservations came close and were rife with starvation .
tortured, or used for slave labor
The natives of North and South America were .
body parts used as raw material for industrial processes, or forced to burn their relatives alive, and the total death toll was about 10% what happened in Germany.
Shrunken heads/scalps were sold in Europe as trinkets .
I suggest you visit the holocaust museum, (and please do try to spell it right), or at least, visit the website.
I suggest you read up on your own history and let Europeans deal with their own inspired holocaust ( I spelt it right ) .
The genocide in Rawanda was the subject of several TV programs recently, notably Frontline.
Oh well that changes everything a breif 20 minute expose that ought placate the memory of it all .
I find it strange that you would comment on the state of American media, since you are in Australia.
I find it strange you would want to post on an Australian forum .
The holocaust was not simply the product of cultural strife, but an example of what horrors can happen to you too, when you let facism arise in your government.
How naieve since when does facism have a monopoly on genocide .

I was comparing the holocaust with Rawanda, and did not mean in any way to suggest that the tragedy of the native americans is not important. I was trying to explain why knowledge of the holocaust is important. Knowledge of our own history is important as well, but I do not accept responsibility for any of these events. The reason there is a museum in Washington D.C. is because the holocaust is part of the history of WWII, and WWII is a part of the United States' history.

Brian,
If you live in Australia, why are you so concerned about American museums?
I thought I would comment on the fact that the most prominent Jewish Holocaust museum is in America not Europe and in light of the 500 years of terror inflicted on the natives and blacks there isnt a museum of equal stature .. just seems a tad bit strange .
Are there any multimillion dollar aborigine museum/monuments?
There arent any here but we dont have a Holacaust museum here ... yet .

By the way, Spidergoat cleared up the funding issue. The land was donated by the feds, but the money came from private donations. Is it any wonder that they managed to get the money to build it? After all, who runs the diamond business?
Gee those Jew's who gave money are American arent they and arent they as guilty as the rest as too what happened to the Native Americans ? Afterall Jews like the gentile Christian kinfolk both profited from the genocide . Dont they have an obligation like the rest of White America to the Afro/Native people .
I still wish I were an Indian, I'd probably go to school the rest of my life. Of course, that may not do much for folks back at the res, but I would be happy.
You sound as blissfully ignorant as any Australian attitude to Aborigines , I suppose you see Native americans like we see Aborigines here .... dirty , lazy , habitually drunk , living a life of luxury on welfare , ignorant ...explains your avoidance of explaining why there should be a museum for native/aboriginal peoples .

I was comparing the holocaust with Rawanda, and did not mean in any way to suggest that the tragedy of the native americans is not important. I was trying to explain why knowledge of the holocaust is important. Knowledge of our own history is important as well, but I do not accept responsibility for any of these events. The reason there is a museum in Washington D.C. is because the holocaust is part of the history of WWII, and WWII is a part of the United States' history.
I believe the biggest memorial museum to the holocaust should be in Germany that is where the origins of that genocide began and was formulated and unfortunately put into action . Germany ( not the only guilty party ) is the logical location for that as Aushwitz also should be a memorial it was a European event . It as ridiculous as erecting a museum to the suffering of Native people in Australia in Berlin see the point I am getting at . I believe that because America is Israels biggest financial benefactor is the reason why that museum is their in D.C purely mercenary .

I find it strange you would want to post on an Australian forum .

Is this true? Is this an Aussie forum? I believe there is a "where are your from" poll that shows American's in the lead. And the domain name is .com not .au (assuming that's Australia's domain.) (And besides, the internet is ours :p All your bases are belong to us)

You seem to suggest that the Indians were just hanging out and being cool, then we came along and slaughtered them. As spidergoat mentioned, the indian tribes were a hunter-gatherer society that routinely engaged in wars with each other and with the pioneers. They still got a raw deal in my opinion, but with the mentality of the time, there was no other future possible.

Ever hear of the ghost dance? It was an Indian "movement" in the late 19th century (not sure of exact dates), which also coincided with some of the last major massacres. The shamans and spiritual leaders of the natives came up with the idea that if all the indians across the land could get together and dance the ghost dance, the spirits would be appeased and the white man would vanish like a ghost. To superstitious people (christians) this could be construed as a direct threat. Was Little Big Horn at this time? I don't quite recall. I think so though. Of course, to our modern sensibilities this is just a cultural phenomenon and not a threat, so disregard this paragraph if you wish. :p

On the shrunken heads and scalps sold as curiousities, I don't think shrunken heads are so much an American phenomenon as a south seas thing. I could be wrong about this (probably am.) As to the scalps, I wonder how many of those scalps were in fact sold to the original traders by Indians. As mentioned above, most tribes engaged in bloody wars and raids on a regular basis.

A similar claim can be applied to slavery, by the way. One always hears about how these evil white men sailed down to Africa and kidnapped people and forced them into slavery. One never hears about how they were in fact sold to the slavers by other Africans, that they were in fact slaves already in Africa. I'm sure that on some occasions, slavers got their hands dirty; but, it would be far easier and more cost efficient to merely buy an existing commodity than to engage in dangerous raids.

On to Indians being used as slaves. I think this is more of a central/south american issue than north american. In the states, we liked our injuns to be somewhere else. We had our own slaves at the time, thank you very much.

It is interesting to note that in central and south america, the natives interbred with the settlers, so that today, there are almost no pure indian strains left. They took back their land. Now if they could just get their governments in order.

Also, census reports I have seen show that the caucasians in the US are being outbred and outimmigrated by latino's. We say latino, but in fact they are a mix of spaniard and native american. I believe 2040 was the date I saw when whites would become a minority. This date is, of course, up for debate, and the true date could be sooner or later. Later most likely. But in the end, the natives will win. The US and Canada are the sole bastions of European colonialism in the Americas. It is inevitable that we will sooner or later be subsumed. Sorry, no links, my sources were all printed.

I agree that fascism and genocide do not necessarily go hand in hand, but I think spidergoat meant that the museum is about more than just the holocaust. It is also a reminder of fascism. Most Germans didn't necessarily believe that the jews should be slaughtered, but the totalitarianism of the government took the issue from their hands. It then reeducated them to believe that it was the right thing to do.

In fact, the fascism of the Prussians educated those earlier Germans to believe in fascism, in the Leader. That's why Nazism was so easily accepted.

Is this true? Is this an Aussie forum? I believe there is a "where are your from" poll that shows American's in the lead. And the domain name is .com not .au (assuming that's Australia's domain.) (And besides, the internet is ours :p All your bases are belong to us)
The Internet is European .
1983: Internet Is Defined Officially as Networks Using TCP/IP.
http://www.historyoftheinternet.com/chap4.html
1991: The World Wide Web (hypertext software) Is Developed at CERN by Tim Berners-Lee
http://www.historyoftheinternet.com/chap6.html
Anyway you seem to be avoiding giving a direct answer on the museum .
QUESTION: Should a Native American museum take precedence over a European Holocaust museum .
Seriously me being Australian we owe a debt to Aborigines not just an apology and some half assed recognition of past historical abuses . We owe them monetary recompense , we owe them a country . Take the Jew's out of this Holocaust they recieved $56 billion in reparations since WWII a country and some $250 billion in economic assistance , military assistance and protection , open free trade agreements with America and Europe and what have Aborigine's got ? Outback wasteland for reservations , poverty through neglect from us and alcholism to cope . We owe them something putting up an edifice like the Holocaust museum to me is a slap in the face to them surely you have too agree .

DARPAnet to internet. Hmmm, DARPA is European? Anyway, I was just joking, the internet has grown beyond whatever bounds originally defined it. I thought Al Gore invented the internet? :p

The problem with classifying precedence with issues of this type, is that it is easier to blame others than ourselves. The Germans killed the Jews, We killed the Indians. Therefore, it easier to blame the Germans than ourselves.

You talk about reparations and assistance to the jews and their interests. Are you forgetting that Indians have access to college for next to nothing (I might be wrong about this, it might be nothing, absolutely free). How much do you think this would add up to if it were taken advantage of?

Welfare can also be seen as assistance and reparations. How much has this added up to over the years?

An interesting thing about the indians is this. In Seattle, there was an indian uprising awhile back. I don't recall the exact specifics; but some tribes rebelled while some tribes assisted the settlers (remember their constant tribal rivalry?) It's interesting to note that the tribes that assisted the pioneers today have no lands. They are a diminished people. While the rebellious tribes all have vast amounts of land.

I have friends who "own" property in Marysville, a city about an hour north of Seattle. They paid for this land, paid to build their house on the land (neither of which is cheap, homes go for about half a mil here, and the prices are only going up). But guess what, it's not theirs. They live on Indian land. I don't remember when the lease runs out, but when it does, the land reverts to the Indians. Pretty good deal, huh? Maybe Indians aren't as oppressed as they're made out to be?

The Jews are integrated into our society. They understand how to work within the rules of our society. The Indians maintain themselves in their reservations. Reservation land is technically a foreign country. They don't, on the whole, integrate. This is a trend that is beginning to change as Indians begin to take advantage of the assets they have been given. I wonder if the Indians in the US will get it together quickly enough to prevent their being oppressed by their cousins from south of the border?

I have read that book I believe Normans literature should be read by all Jew's especially the one's who defend Zionism . Did you know Norman Finklestein has lost his job at the university .... hmmmm saw that coming .

I did not know that ! but I am not surprised, The jews can do anything to silence anyone who dare to question them even if it was self-hating jew ( as they like to call Norman ) !! :rolleyes: