The Greatest Depression Is Coming

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by kmguru, Nov 9, 2005.

  1. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    Saw on the net. The article is a couple of years old. Comments welcome.

    The Greatest Depression Is Coming
    by John Finger
    The Money Management Firm, Inc.
    March 11, 2003​



    The Greatest Depression is Coming.

    That’s no exaggeration. It will be worse in many respects than the Great Depression of 1929-1939. But those who are prepared will prosper.

    The First Signs Are Already Here

    The most noticeable sign is in unemployment. Sure, the official unemployment rate is low as of the time of this writing (5.7%), but the standard used to measure unemployment is seriously flawed. For example, that standard does not include “discouraged” workers; that is, those who have given up looking for work. It also doesn’t include the “underemployed,” who are highly trained but can’t find jobs in their own fields, leaving them to work in jobs for which they are overqualified and underpaid. Additionally, the Labor Department publishes new claims for unemployment benefits on a weekly basis. Economists consider anything less than 400,000 new claims a sign of a recovering economy. Yet 400,000 seems to be an average. With that many new claims each week and the help-wanted index hovering near 30-year lows, we can see that the official unemployment rate, regardless of the number, grossly understates the true percentage of unemployed.

    How many people do you know who have been laid off? I know plenty. There are about 10 million of them in the United States. And very few of them are finding work easily.

    Next, look at the stock market. The years 2000, 2001 and 2002 were all down years for all three major indices. The Nasdaq Composite has been impacted more severely than the other indices: it is down 74% from its high in 2000. The Dow Jones Industrial Average (DJIA) is down 33%, while the S&P 500 is down 47%. The stock market last saw three consecutive down years at the end of the Great Depression, 1939-1941. The last time we saw four consecutive down years was the period 1929-1932, at the beginning of the Great Depression. During that period, the Dow Jones Industrial Average fell from a high of 381.17 in September 1929 to a low of 41.22 in 1932, a decline of 89%. You can see that the Dow can now decline a lot more and still not break any records.

    Look at stock valuations. Go to Bigcharts.com and plug in “DJIA.” As of the end of February 2003, the Price-Earnings ratio of the DJIA was 20.30, while that of the S&P 500 (represented by the ticker “SPX”) was 27.59. Those figures are still very high as measured by historical standards. The reason they haven’t fallen that much is because both prices and earnings have fallen since the carefree days of early 2000. Historically, the P/E of the S&P 500 is between 13 and 14, depending on which source you follow. Assuming earnings don’t change in the meantime, that would imply that the S&P 500 should lose another 50% of its value before it is fairly valued. But that’s not the worst news: at the bottom of bear markets, the P/E typically drops to around 5. That would imply a further decline of more than 80% from the current value. Can you picture an S&P 500 value of around 170?

    People choose to bury their heads in the sand and ignore stock market history. Even if the stock market is boring to you, you must understand one cold, hard fact: the stock market leads the economy. The economy was roaring along when the stock market topped out in both September 1929 and March 2000. When the market started declining, the economy soon followed. In the spring of 1930, people thought that the worst was over: the DJIA recovered to nearly 300 as the economy showed signs of improvement. But then the DJIA took a hard turn south, dragging the economy down shortly thereafter. The DJIA had five major bear market rallies before it bottomed in 1932. So far in this bear market, we have had four rallies, each leading to newer lows.

    The stock market has likewise led the economy into other weak periods. Cases in point were bear markets in 1962, 1973-1974 and 1980-1982.

    Individual players in the stock market will lie through their teeth, because they have a position to support. But the stock market itself never lies.

    We’re seeing deflation for the first time since the 1930s. That’s right: downright deflation. Look at the list compiled by Comstock partners: PCs and peripherals; butter; TVs; toys; long-distance charges; used cars and trucks; audio equipment; women’s underwear, nightwear, sportswear and accessories; milk; men’s pants and shorts; pork chops; airline fares; new cars; electricity; ship fares; and kitchen, living room and dining room furniture. In most areas of the country, housing prices have started to drop. Rents are dropping. “For Rent” or “For Sale” signs appear at nearly every office building we look at, whether it’s here in Colorado, San Francisco, or anywhere. There are very few prospective tenants who are shopping for space. In fact, the only area where any inflation still exists is in health insurance and energy costs.

    We have experienced several periods of disinflation since the Great Depression, but never downright deflation: that is, until now. In a period of disinflation, there’s no inflation or deflation. Prices remain stable.

    The Federal Reserve Board is obviously concerned about deflation. In November 2002, Federal Reserve Board Governor Ben Bernanke made a now-infamous speech to a group of economists in Washington on his version of a remedy for deflation. Bernanke is quoted as saying:

    "The U.S. government has a technology, called a printing press - or today, its electronic equivalent
    - that allows it to produce as many U.S. dollars as it wishes at essentially no cost.”

    He was right, but his comments led investors to sell dollars and buy Euros and gold. Moreover, Mr. Bernanke forgot one minor detail: Germany, faced with huge deficits caused by reparations requirements after World War I, tried the same thing in the 1920’s. Pictures soon appeared worldwide, showing people with wheelbarrows full of Reichmarks lining up to buy a loaf of bread. The country was still in a Depression, despite the printing presses having worked overtime. This led in large part to the rise of Adolf Hitler.

    What else can the Fed do? They have already knocked the Fed Funds rate from 6% to 1.25%, the lowest rate since 1962, and it hasn’t worked. Japan has knocked short-term rates down to 0.25%, and that country has been in a deep slump for most of the last 11 years. But we’ll be lucky if we go down Japan’s road: at least Japan is a country of savers. We are a country of spenders.

    The Trade Deficit

    People tend to not care about the trade deficit since they don’t see it. But it’s huge and getting worse. Moreover, when the last Great Depression started, the United States was the world’s largest creditor. Now, we’re the world’s largest debtor nation. In 2002, our trade deficit hit a record $435 billion, and we’re currently borrowing about $10 billion per week. For economists, the trade deficit is now 5% of GDP, a huge amount. All of this occurs despite a weaker dollar. The United States buys goods that are made overseas, because countries like China, India and Mexico have far cheaper labor costs than we do. When we buy their products, our dollars leave our shores and go to the sellers. The sellers have to do something with those dollars. Until recently, those sellers would typically repatriate the money by buying American stocks and bonds. Now, however, with declining stocks, low bond yields, lowering real estate prices and a falling dollar, those expatriate dollars have nowhere to go in America. Think about it: if you have a large amount of dollars, where would you put them right now? Foreigners have that same problem. Since they’re not investing here, investment in our infrastructure declines, which weakens our economic picture even more.

    Budget Deficits And The National Debt

    The only thing in existence that can afford to pile on debt and keep right on going is the U.S. Government. President Bush has proposed a budget for fiscal 2004 with a record $300 billion in deficit. That’s before the cost of a war with Iraq, which could add another $85 billion to the tab. Moreover, if the economy remains weak, the government will take in fewer taxes, causing the deficit to balloon even more. The current year’s debt gets added on to the already-staggering national debt, which is currently $6.7 trillion.

    Who pays for all this debt? Tax receipts pay for part of it. Our kids and grandkids, however, will pay for the vast majority of it. In order to cover the debt, the government issues U.S. Treasury securities. Investors finance the debt by buying these securities. Their payments come from tax receipts.

    At some point, however, the government won’t be able to afford to pay on its obligations. The debt burden is too huge and has been caused by politicians of both parties who are more concerned for their own political lives than they are for the country’s welfare. They slip their pork projects into budgets in order to look good in front of the voters, even though our tax burdens are very heavy. And the voters are just as guilty, because we always ask the politicians, “What are you doing for our district?” This form of representative government goes on all over and will eventually leave bondholders high and dry.

    Herbert Hoover will never be remembered as a great president. But he maintained a disciplined fiscal policy through the depths of the Great Depression. As a result, the federal government never defaulted on its obligations, even after Franklin Roosevelt took over and exacerbated deficit spending. It is too bad that the government will be starting off the next depression in such sorry financial state.

    The government’s coming default on its obligations will cause a financial calamity. There is no more secure a financial instrument than U.S. government bonds. In fact, every other bond in the world is measured against our own government bonds in terms of stability. All bonds will sell off when that happens. Interest rates will rise sharply, as investors demand higher yields in return for investing in “risky government bonds.” And current bondholders, typically senior citizens who live off of the interest, will be left high and dry.

    The federal government isn’t the only government in deep fiscal mud. Once all of the states have updated their figures for the current fiscal year ending on July 31, 2003 for most states, the total deficit could come to $50 billion. Projections for deficits in fiscal 2004 reach as high as $80 billion. The deficit in California alone is projected to be $35 billion this fiscal year. The federal government is spending money it doesn’t have by giving the states $100 billion in fiscal stimulus. As you can see, though, most of that will be eaten up by state government deficits. Many state constitutions require balanced budgets. This will require states to both raise taxes and cut spending. And the raising of taxes during difficult economic times results in an even worse problem.

    Foreign countries share our misery when it comes to budget deficits. Despite a European Union mandate to the contrary, France's budget deficit is likely to have exceeded 3% of gross domestic product in 2002. Don’t be surprised if Germany and other countries offer the same confession. Country defaults are not uncommon. The “Asian Flu” broke out in 1997. Russia defaulted in 1998. Argentina and Brazil defaulted in 2002. Last year, the Argentine economy fell 10%. The peso lost 70% of its value. And consumer prices rose 40%. Half the population lives in poverty, say press reports. Crime is rising. Columbia has been in a civil war for 30 years. Venezuela has an ongoing strike against its president. Latin America is an economic tinderbox, prone to elect extremist leaders and leaving its citizens to try any method possible and get to the Promised Land. When anybody or anything defaults on its debts, the debt collector also hurts. The International Monetary Fund (IMF), World Bank and several giant money-center banks have lost billions when those countries defaulted, and they continue losing money today.

    Consumer Debt & Real Estate

    As of December 2002, the latest month for which figures are available, total consumer debt stood at $1.722 trillion, just $4 billion below the record set in the prior month. Not surprisingly, a record 1.5 million bankruptcies were filed in 2002, the largest ever. As in the case of country defaults, somebody in addition to the debtor will hurt when a bankruptcy is filed. Those “somebodies” are the creditors, including banks, savings & loans, retailers and wherever else the debtor shopped before he dropped.

    Home foreclosures are not yet hitting records, but it won’t take long. Over 5% of all home mortgages are now delinquent, yet new construction spending rose 1.7% in January 2003. The amount spent during that period was $877.9 billion. It appears that somebody hasn’t yet received the word that the economy is somewhere between the “slow-growth” and “depression” end of the scale, depending on the realism of the interviewee.

    We all know how refinancing has kept one leg up under the economy. In fact, many of us believe that refinancing has been the only leg holding up the economy. Low interest rates, helped along by 12 Fed rate cuts, have given consumers the opportunity to pay off those high-interest credit cards. Unfortunately, though, the process didn’t end there. Consumers bought houses and ran up credit card debts. Since their houses appreciated in value, consumers took out second mortgages or refinanced the firsts, giving them enough money in pocket to pay off the credit cards. But then they loaded up on the credit cards again, either because they had to have that big-screen television (made in Japan) or because they were laid off and simply needed the money to pay living expenses. Many of the mortgages were (and are) the 125% variety, whereby the bank lends the homeowner up to 125% of the value of the property. This shows the level of insanity that builds at the end of any bubble: at the end of the 1990s, lenders were hot to make stock loans. Now that the stock bubble has burst, lenders are looking for other items that have held their value relatively well. Residential real estate is one of the few items left.

    Back in the 1990s, if you ever noticed a fixer-upper house with a “for sale” sign in front of it, bidders would appear from everywhere. Now those ugly houses are just sitting there. Why? There are three reasons. First of all, most insurance companies who covered those houses under a “builders risk” policy are no longer underwriting those properties, just because of the liabilities involved. That means any entrepreneur would have to fix up the house without insurance, and this is a very risky proposition. Second, many former entrepreneurs have been burned by falling rents and slowing sales and no longer have the capital or credit to fix up such houses. For the third reason, see “The War On Terrorism” below.

    The commercial real estate bubble has burst already. Almost every commercial building has a “for sale” or “for lease” sign in front of it. For example, as of December 2002, 150 Class “A” office buildings in Denver stood empty. The situation has only gotten worse since then.

    All areas of the country, with the notable exception of California, are experiencing either flat or declining residential real estate values. And now, even lofty California is beginning to see things turn lower. Properties are vacant longer. The days of the buying frenzy, where buyers bid above the asking price in order to get the property, are either gone or on their way out. Bidding frenzies occur at the end of every bubble, as we saw three years ago before the bottom fell out from under stocks. he bursting of the real estate will be severe, since it will involve many more people than did the stock market bubble and it involves an illiquid asset. Prices declined 50% during the Great Depression. That should be a conservative figure this time around: look for an even more severe decline in the bubble markets such as California.

    Rents and prices will drop over the next few years. And debts that aren’t paid off will be discharged, hurting the banks and other lenders even more.

    Frivolous Lawsuits

    For many people, the only way to make money during hard economic times is to sue somebody. Whether the claim has any merit is irrelevant. In American society, if you get sued, you lose. It doesn’t matter if the claim is completely baseless. The defendant always loses. His reputation is slung in the mud. He spends fortunes defending himself. Even if he wins, he is still stuck with the bill of attorney’s fees and possibly court costs on top.

    Most plaintiff personal injury attorneys (attorneys representing those who file the lawsuit) take their compensation on a percentage basis, somewhere between 25% and 40%. In other words, if you sue someone for $100,000, the attorney on a 35% contingency plan will get $35,000 of your award if you win. If you lose, the attorney gets nothing. In fact, the attorney loses money in such a case, since the attorney typically pays all of your costs, including court fees and investigative costs, up-front, in the hope that they will be able to settle the case or win at trial. Most attorneys who draw compensation from contingency fees aren’t really looking to go to trial. What they want is a settlement. The settlement will pay them and the client the fastest, since many courts have backlogs of 2 or more years.

    Look at it from the other side. If you are sued, your attorney won’t take his compensation on a contingency-fee basis. Your attorney will want an hourly fee. Who pays that fee? You do. Even if you win the case, you’ve lost all that money in paying for an attorney, your share of court costs, investigations, etc. That’s why most defendants are prompted to settle a case, even if the case against them is completely without merit. Plaintiff attorneys know this all too well. So, if they can find out ahead of time that the defendant has money or other assets, it’s worth the attorney’s while to bring suit. Many attorneys bring suit even if it is without merit, since the system as it’s established rewards such dubious efforts.

    If you think that this type of system doesn’t affect you, think again. Even if you have never been involved in a lawsuit, you are paying for the legal system we have. How? If you have insurance, you are paying higher insurance premiums because your insurance company has to figure costs of litigation, even spurious lawsuits, into the premiums you pay. When someone spills hot coffee on herself at a fast-food restaurant and sues, the prices will go up. When baton-twirlers sue their school after being cut from the majorettes, your property taxes will go up in order to pay the costs of that lawsuit. When a woman gets a $2,699,000 judgment against a grocery store for falling on her back while opening a jar of pickles, you will pay higher grocery prices. When a burglar breaks into your house and sues you when you’ve shot him, you’ll pay, along with your insurance company and others who are insured with the same insurance company.

    When your doctor gets sued, her malpractice premiums skyrocket, regardless of the suit’s merit. Most gynecologists pay annual insurance premiums well in excess of $100,000, and some pay over a million dollars per year. Not only do you pay higher fees for office visits, but also doctors will order all sorts of seemingly unnecessary tests as a result, so that, if you ever bring a claim, the doctor can safely say she ordered all precautionary steps to protect you. Frivolous lawsuits drive future doctors into either foregoing medical careers or going into specialties without such a high incidence of lawsuit filings, such as dermatology. The next time you want to have a baby and you can’t find a doctor who will deliver it, now you’ll know why.

    This is insane. President Bush is trying to remedy the problem by capping punitive damage awards. That, in my opinion, is the wrong solution. Many lawsuits do have merit, and many defendants do deserve to lose big. What we really need is to stop the frivolous lawsuits from being filed in the first place, and we can eliminate most of them by adopting “loser pays” laws. If you lose a lawsuit, you will pay everything. That way, anyone who thinks of bringing a lawsuit will think twice. Plaintiff lawyers will also think twice, since they are fronting the costs of suit in hopes of making a profit later. If they don’t collect, the plaintiff attorneys will lose big. A “loser pays” law will discourage many such attorneys from bringing suit in the first place. Conversely, anyone who is sued will think twice about defending the suit. If the case has merit and the defendant faces not only damage awards but also costs of litigation on both sides, the defendant will be prompted to settle. If, however, the case has no merit, the defendant knows he has a high likelihood of being compensated when the case is decided in court.

    Truly legitimate lawsuits are put on ice for two years or more in our nation’s clogged court systems. Watch how fast cases would be settled and how fast insurance premiums would drop if the frivolous lawsuits were cleared out of the way. But that won’t happen anytime soon.

    The War On Terrorism

    This is one wrench that we can’t get out of the cistern. Even the capture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who masterminded the attacks of September 11, 2001, couldn’t turn around a lackluster stock market. You can rest assured of how terrorism will affect the equities markets: if terrorism occurs, the markets sell off. If no terrorism occurs, the markets are neutral.

    All governments are required to drain precious funds in an area which was unfathomable thirty years ago. That means less funds are available for needed spending and saving elsewhere. The incorporation of terrorism planning means fewer freedoms for honest, law-abiding citizens. A case in point is the Patriot Act of 2001, the rushed-through, unconstitutional legislation that gave the FBI and Justice Department broad new authority to use wiretaps, electronic eavesdropping, and a number of other information-gathering techniques on all of us. Now a successor version, officially called the “Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003,” dubbed “Patriot II” is making its way through the cloakrooms of Congress and will take away even more of our privacy. The goal may be laudable, but the methodology stinks. When the government, using terrorism as its excuse, limits the very fabric of freedom and privacy upon which our country was founded, Osama bin Laden has won himself a victory he couldn’t have imagined when he saw the television on 9/11.

    Think about this: the weapons of choice for the 9/11 hijackers were razor blades. Does that justify the government abridging our Constitutional rights? In my opinion, any act including the word “Patriot” should apply just to non-citizens.

    We are currently gearing up for a war against Iraq. Although our government alleges that that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction (WMD), it has shown us only the al-Samoud missiles as evidence. We also know that Iraq has used WMD in the past, both against its own Kurdish population and against Iran. However, it is very sobering to find that United Nations weapons inspectors have found no other weapons, despite the so-called information-sharing agreement they have struck with the U.S. intelligence community. Even if we win a quick victory before Saddam Hussein can blow up his oil fields or use WMD, millions of more enemies will rise to take his place. As many as a million military personnel would be stuck in Iraq as an occupying force, and when would we leave? Moreover, the United States and Great Britain would foot the bill for everything, since no other nation would commit troops to such an operation. Finally, the last thing any Arab neighbor would want is a democracy in Iraq.

    A far greater threat to our country and the world is North Korea. Unlike Iraq, North Korea actually tells the truth about half the time. It was honest in saying it was pulling out of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. It was honest in saying it was restarting the Yongbyon nuclear reactor. Then, there’s the other half: where it alleges that the reactor will just be used to produce electricity. In reality, North Korea has no capacity to deliver any electricity from that reactor to other parts of the country. And, when a government would rather let its citizens eat grass and tree bark while it feeds its military and MWD projects, we cannot believe that it would have the desire to supply its citizens with electricity. North Korea has violated agreement after agreement, and it just doesn’t care. Why? Because it has nukes. That’s why we’re pursuing a “diplomatic” option with North Korea while pursuing war preparation with Iraq. Any real trouble with North Korea will devastate our economy even more.

    Look at the war on terrorism from the insurance standpoint. When the terrorists flew those airplanes into the World Trade Center, insurance companies had an enormous amount of claims to pay. Warren Buffett’s company, Berkshire Hathaway, had to shell out more than $2 billion in 9/11 claims. Most insurance companies themselves buy insurance, a process called reinsurance. That process protects them against devastating losses such as what happened on September 11, 2001. Nonetheless, it causes all premiums to rise. Moreover, many insurance companies have since excluded coverage for terror-related incidents, while others include new riders (and extra premiums) for those who want to maintain coverage in the event of a terror-related incident.

    Unlike past wars, the war on terrorism will never end. There are no defined boundaries, no finite set of enemy leaders or foot soldiers. It will be a continuing drain on governments and economies around the world into the foreseeable future.

    The Good News

    After reading all this bad news, you must think that there is nothing you can do but stick all your money under the mattress, load the .45 and store canned goods. That needn’t be the case at all. The world’s most famous stock trader, Jesse Livermore, earned $100 million on Black Tuesday, October 29, 1929 by shorting stocks. Joseph P. Kennedy, the father of a future president, earned his third fortune by doing the same thing in the Great Crash. Opportunities to earn a fortune are even greater now: data is available at the touch of a keystroke, unlike during the Great Depression. You can now invest in mutual funds whose performance goes up when stock indices go down. It’s easy to short stocks, and it’s even easier to short exchange-traded funds (ETFs), since those funds have no up-tick rule. You will always find at least one asset that performs well, even during tough economic times. Gold, for example, gained strongly during the Great Depression, as it has since 2001. Bonds have performed very well. The entire energy complex is hitting highs not seen since the Gulf War. Any asset can turn abruptly, as we all know, so check with a financial advisor before investing in any of them.

    Speaking of financial advisors, the worst thing you could do is to seek out an advisor who is in the “buy and hold” category. Find one who is independent and realistic. If you want to make your own financial decisions, fine. Just have a sound basis for making your decisions, realize when you have made a mistake, cut your losses short, and let your profits run.

    If you bought a tech stock at $100.00 per share and it’s now at $4.00, you’re tempted to “wait it out.” Don’t. You’ve made a mistake. Get over it. Take a loss, pick up your marbles and move on to another game. New opportunities present themselves every day in the investment world. Jesse Livermore knew that, as did Joe Kennedy. Do you?
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,198
    While I agree with much stated by Finger, he is wrong on Brazil defaulting in 2002. -It was much earlier.
    In 2005 alone, thus far, the Brazilain Real is up almost 20% against the dollar. The trade surplus exceeded all of 2004's last month, despite this stronger Real. Brazil is also a net exproter of oil. If you had invested in Brazil's bonds when this article was written, (then at about a 50% discont to face) you would be happy as they trade at a premium to face now because they pay the highest real interest in the world. (Turkey is some times higher.) Unlike the US, Brazil is economically strong and getting stornger.
    The real irony is that four years ago, when it looked like the former socialist labor leader, Lula, would win the presidency (he did.) capital fled the country. Now a serious scandel is beging to reach up to Lula and holders of captial are scared he may not be re-elected as he has surprized everyone with very responsible tight-money fiscal policy and infaltion is single digit per year whereas only about five years ago, at its worst, it was double digit per week!
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,053
    Ya' know, there's been this scary talk/predictions about the "coming depression" since the last depression in the 20s. Why has none of THOSE predictions come true, yet this new one is so much more likely?

    The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

    Baron Max
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. john smith Tongue in cheek Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    833
    Nope its not Max, Acid effects everyone differently, for you, "The sky is falling"!!!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  8. lixluke Refined Reinvention Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,072
    Too bad about the sky because the USD is rising.
     
  9. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    It is more like Euro is falling (25% against $ in 3 years) and continue to fall till they both become equal. It is perhaps by design or mess in Europe?
     
  10. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,383
    I love this quote, "Things that can't go on forever won't" by Herb Stein, economist.

    The trade deficit can't go on forever. The chinese won't lend forever. If you measured trade in hours exchanged the trade deficit would look even larger. Of course if we can trade one of our hours for ten of their hours we must have a special and are lucky. If we trade two hours of our unborn grandchildrens hours thirty years from now for one chinese hour towards a new CD player for us now we are selfish jerks.

    It would be better for our future grand children if the Chinese would stop lending to us now because every year we put our future grandchildren deeper in debt. If we intend to print our way out of debt thirty years from now then our grand children won't have to pay for our toys. America won't have any production capacity left for our grandchildren to make things for themselves with if the World decides to lend us more and more money every year so that we can buy everything that we might want from them.

    But why would they make such stupid loans? If they stop lending we can't buy. The multiplier effect on the lent money means that the stimulas to the economy from the borrowed money is much larger than just the borrowed money. If we can't buy they can't sell. If they can't sell they can't buy. The entire world trading pattern depends on Americans buying things they can't pay for. We can't rapidly change the global trading pattern without causing great disruption and sending the world into a great deppression.

    The sky will fall. Go find a good weatherman to know when the sky will fall and how hard it will fall.


    The Dollar and Euro are both overvalued.
     
  11. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    33,264
    There have been ups and downs in the worlds economies for decades.
     
  12. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    There have been hurricanes for decades...and earthquakes....until a few big ones hit...then all hell breaks loose....

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  13. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,053
    Yeah, that's true ....all hell broke loose. And our economy is still going strong and seems to be recovering from even those disasters.

    The sky is falling! The sky is falling!! (...and I'm sooooo scared!)

    Baron Max
     
  14. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

    Messages:
    24,066
    pardon me...

    The euro and dollar started with being almost equal value. Then the dollar climbed literally on top of the euro. So the dollar was worth more than the euro. However, some collapsing occured with regards of the dollar and currently the euro is worth the same as 1.21$. I know because basically I would rather have my salary in euros than dollars. But sadly it is the other way around.
     
  15. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    The link:

    Even more galling to the euro's supporters has been its weakness on international currency markets, with the euro falling by 25% against the dollar since its launch 3 years ago.
     
  16. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    Excerpt from CNN:11/10/05

    DOBBS: The House of Representatives is nearing a vote on massive budget cuts aimed at the very heart of this country's future: our students. The House of Representatives could cut almost $14.5 billion from the Federal Student Loan Program even as our middle class students fall further behind the rest of the world in educational excellence. Lisa Sylvester has the report.

    (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

    LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Darnell Holloway is a senior at UC Davis. He wants to go to law school, but a budget reduction bill in Congress could derail that dream. It would cut $14 billion from federal student aid programs.

    DARNELL HOLLOWAY, UC DAVIS STUDENT: It's almost a slap in the face that because of this, I will potentially have to change my whole life. I'll never be able to realize that dream if this goes through. And I know that there is millions of students that are in the same situation as I am.

    SYLVESTER: The bill would tack on $5.5 billion new charges to students when they consolidate college loans. It would raise the maximum cap on student loan interest rates to 8.25 percent and it would add nearly $2 billion in new taxes on loans for students and their parents.

    The cuts further squeeze families faced with rising tuition costs.

    SARAH FLANAGAN, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF INDEPENDENT COLLEGES: There's very few families out there, whether they're lower income or moderate income or upper income that can afford to pay -- just write a check for college tuitions.

    SYLVESTER: Lawmakers led by Representative Ron Kind don't dispute that the budget gap needs to be closed, but argue it should not be on the backs of students.

    REP. RON KIND, (D) WISCONSIN: This is at a time when China and India are ramping up their education investment in a major way. They're calling for a huge cut in the student loan program, making it more difficult rather than easier for low and middle income students to go on to school.

    SYLVESTER: At the same time, the congressional leadership is pushing to slash tuition aid that will impact students like Darnell Holloway, it's looking to extend tax cuts on dividends and capital gains that will benefit the richest Americans.

    (END VIDEOTAPE) SYLVESTER: The budget bill was scheduled for a vote in the House, but it's been put off until next week. As of now, the Republican leadership has not been able to drum up enough votes to get it through -- Lou.

    DOBBS: Well, that is a hopeful sign. I mean, what in the world is this Republican leadership thinking about at a time when the president is talking about the importance of education, in being competitive when we have approaching a $700 billion trade deficit. For many, many students whether their middle class or aspire to be in the middle class who are desperate for that money?

    SYLVESTER: It's a great question. This all comes down to a matter of priorities. Is education important in this country? And that's what Congress recall needs to answer, Lou?

    DOBBS: And we hope they will answer in the affirmative in talking about the nation's future. It's less an assault on our middle class, it looks like war has been declared.

    Lisa Sylvester, thank you very much.
     
  17. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,198
    Good point. I am a charter member of the "chicken little club." I live in Brazil, but my grandchildren all live in USA. Because I foresee a bleak future for them when China etc. stop lending I wrote the book you can learn more about at web site under my name.

    Living standards in India and China are rapidly rising. Their internal market is not currently able to absorb all their productive capacity, so they lend, even though they know the "sky will fall" and their accumulated reserves in dollars will greatly depreciate. The sky will fall when they decide that their populations are now rich enough to replace Americans, etc. as consumers. (With the socialists now in power in India, both China and India have strong central decision capacity.)

    In China's case, US is giving (by living beyond its means) the economic gun to them to kill us. If I lived in Taiwan, I would be scared. US and China are at a military stand off, in that neither can use their nuclear IBMs, but China can collapse the US economy anytime it chooses. It does not even need to do the obvious (dump it dollars), although it is doing a little of that already by bidding too high for oil in the ground. (Better to lose a little money now, trading dollar reserves for oil reserves, instead of watch the dollars lose more value later.)

    Whenever it wants to, China can pay $100 per barrel of oil coming out of the ground today. When they want to kill the US economically, they can just announce that they will create a “strategic oil reserve” and start doing this. Just the announcement will probably send oil above $100/ barrel and the dollar so rapidly down that oil producers will want payment in gold or ownership ao assets etc. Even friendly countries, will not hold most of their reserves in dollars that are rapidly losing value. The US is very dependent upon the private car, but few will be on the roads when gas is 10 or 20 $/gal. and even jobs that have not already been exported are vanishing as shops close because it is too expensive to drive to the shoping center, etc.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2005
  18. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    While we are on the subject, has anyone read this? What do you think? Any relation to trade deficit etc?

    MONEY OUT OF NOTHING
    By David Icke
    Edited and supplemented by 'here and now'

    Today the initiates and frontmen for the "Babylonian Brotherhood" control world politics, banking, business, intelligence agencies, police, the military, education and the media. The most important of these, in terms of control, is banking. The creation and manipulation of money. The Brotherhood financial sting is very simple and spans the period we are documenting from the time of Sumer and Babylon to the present day. It is based on creating money that doesn't exist and lending it to people and businesses in return for interest.

    This is how "they" control governments, businesses and the general population, by creating enormous debt.

    Vital to this has been to allow bankers to lend money they do not have. It works like this. If you or me have a million pounds, we can lend a million pounds. Very simple. But if a bank has a million pounds it can lend ten times that and more, and charge interest on it.

    If even a fraction of the people who theoretically have 'money' deposited in the banks went today to remove it, the banks would slam the doors in half an hour because they do not have it. Money in the bank is a myth, another confidence trick.

    If you go into a bank and ask for a loan, the bank does not print a single new note nor mint a single new coin. It merely types the amount of the loan into your account. From that moment you are paying interest to the bank on what is no more than figures typed on a screen. However, if you fail to pay back that non-existent loan, "they" using "they're" own made-up laws - which are illegal, according to God - will come along and take your wealth that does exist, your home, land, car, and possessions, to the estimated value of whatever figure was typed onto that screen.

    More than that, because money is not brought into circulation by governments, but by private banks making loans to customers, the banks control how much money is in circulation. The more loans they choose to make, the more money is in circulation. What is the difference between an economic boom (prosperity) and an economic depression (poverty)? One thing only: the amount of money in circulation. That's all. And, through this system, the private banks, controlled by the same people, decide how much money will be in circulation. They can create booms and busts at will.

    The same with the stock-markets where these guys are moving trillions of dollars a day around the financial and banking markets, so deciding if they go up or down, soar or crash. Stock-market crashes don't just happen, they are made to happen.

    Most of the 'money' in circulation is not physical money, cash and coins. It is represented as figures passing from one computer account to another electronically via money transfers, credit-cards and cheque books. The more money, electronic or otherwise, that is in circulation, the more economic activity can take place and therefore the more products are bought and sold, the more income people have, and the more jobs are available. But a constant theme of the Hidden Hands' financial coup has been to create a boom by making lots of loans and then pull the plug.

    Overpaid economists and economic correspondents, most of whom have no idea what is going on, will tell you that boom and bust is part of some natural 'economic cycle'. What claptrap. It is systematic manipulation by the Brotherhood to steal the real wealth of the world.

    During a boom many people get themselves into even more debt. The vibrant economic activity means that businesses borrow more for new technology to increase production to meet demand. People borrow more to buy a bigger house and a new, more expensive car, because they are so confident about their economic future. Then, at the most opportune moment, the major bankers, coordinated by the secret society networks, raise interest rates to suppress the demand for loans and they begin to call in loans already outstanding. They ensure they make far fewer loans than before. This has the affect of taking units of exchange (money in its various forms) out of circulation. This suppresses demand for products and leads to fewer jobs because there is not enough money in circulation to generate the necessary economic activity. So people and businesses can no longer earn enough to repay their loans and they go bankrupt. The banks then take over their real wealth, their business, home, land, car and possessions in return for non-repayment of a loan that was never more than figures typed on a screen. This has been going on in cycles over thousands of years, especially the last few centuries, and the real wealth of the world has been sucked out of the population and into the hands of those who control the banking system - the Conspirators' Hierarchy.

    The same applies to countries. Instead of creating their own interest-free money, governments borrow it from the private banking cartel and pay back both the interest and the capital by taxation of the people.

    Fantastic amounts of the money you pay in taxes go straight to the private banks to pay back loans which the governments could create themselves interest-free!!

    Why don't they do it? Because the Brotherhood controls the governments as much as they control the banks.

    What we call 'privatisation' is the selling-off of state assets to stave off bankruptcy caused by the bank-created debt. Third World countries are handing over control of their land and resources to the international bankers because they cannot pay back the vast loans made, on purpose, by the banks to ensnare them in this very situation. The world does not have to be in poverty and conflict, it is manipulated to be that way because it serves the Agenda.

    The Knights Templar used the system I've just described when they created the foundations of the modern banking network back in the 12th and 13th centuries and this clearly connected with the Venetian network of the Black Nobility operating at the same time. The world financial manipulation is today coordinated by 'central banks' in each country which appear to be working independently, but are in fact working together to a common end. The Bank of England, chartered by the Black Nobility's William of Orange, has been the spider at the centre of this web and so, too, since the 1930s, has the Bank of International Settlements in Switzerland. Akin to the Bank of England, the central banks were chartered by the descendants of the banking families of Genoa and Venice.

    Another of their cycles is to encourage people to invest in the stock-market until the quoted companies are massively overvalued. The Brotherhood then crash the markets (having sold their stocks just before) and while most people lose their money, the Brotherhood buy up vast amounts of stock at bargain prices. The stock-market goes up, so does the value of the newly acquired companies, and the Brotherhood wealth and control takes another leap forward.

    These evil people see creating wars as a wonderful way to make vast fortunes and destroy the status quo.

    "They" lend money to both sides to fund the war and then "they" lend them even more to rebuild their devastated countries.

    Countries get in debt (control) to "they" and "they" increase "their" wealth (power). Such control and power allows "they" to build a new society in the image of "their" agenda, when the war "they" have created and funded has destroyed the old structure. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were discovered in the last century and tell in incredible detail the events and methods of manipulation we have seen manifest in the 20th century. So much disinformation and aggression has been hurled at the Protocols and anyone who has mentioned them - including me - because the Brotherhood are desperate to discredit their contents. It is far too close to home. Hitler used the Protocols in part to justify the oppression of Jews, but he was given the Protocols by a Rothschild agent of Khazar decent called Alfred Rosenberg.

    The Rothschild's became one of the pivotal families in the Brotherhood's financial and political Agenda and they went on to direct events throughout Europe before expanding into the Americas, South Africa and eventually the world. They had the crown heads of Europe in debt to them and this included the Black Nobility reptilian dynasty, the Habsburgs, who ruled the [un-]holy Roman Empire for 600 years.

    The Rothschilds also took control of the Bank of England. If there was a war, the Rothschilds were behind the scenes, creating the conflict and funding both sides. The Rothschild leaders are not Jewish, they are Khazarian who have sent countless Jews to their deaths to further their sickening ambitions.

    Another of the Brotherhood's most important coups was the creation in 1913 of the Federal Reserve, the so-called 'central bank' of the United States. It is neither federal nor has any reserve. It is a cartel of private banks owned by the 20 founding families, mostly European, which today decides the interest rates for the United States and lends non-existent money (figures on a screen) to the US Government on which the taxpayers have to pay interest.

    What we call the 'American Deficit' - is nothing more than fresh air.

    The Federal Government of the United States does not own a single share in the Federal Reserve and American citizens cannot purchase them. Profits exceed $150 billion a year and the Federal Reserve has not once in all its history published audited accounts. This income is assured because:

    1. The Brotherhood control the US Government (the Virginia Company under another name) which continues to borrow 'money' from the 'Fed';

    2. They also control the privately-owned Internal Revenue Service (IRS), the illegal terrorist organisation which collects the taxation from the people;

    and

    3. it controls the media to ensure that people never find out about 1 and 2.

    The Brotherhood had long desired a privately-owned 'central bank' in America to complete their control of the economy. When the leading Freemason, George Washington, became the first president he appointed a Brotherhood yes-man called Alexander Hamilton as his Secretary of the Treasury. Hamilton introduced the Bank of the United States, a privately owned central bank which began to lend money to the new US Government so creating control by debt from the very start. Look at what happened when the Black Nobility introduced the Bank of England, and the scenario is exactly the same. The Bank of the United States caused so much poverty, bankruptcy and rebellion, that it was eventually closed down, but soon after that came its replacement, the Federal Reserve
     
  19. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
  20. lixluke Refined Reinvention Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,072
    France is experiencing very hard times. They are the 2nd biggest player in the value of the Euro. The riots in France are causing the Euro to fall against every currency including the dollar.

    It is verry hard to say that there is some sort of intentional influence conspiring to make the value of the Euro less than or equal to the value of the dollar. Of course this is in the best interest of the United States. Therefore, this is what the United States would be pursuing. There is no doubt the US intends to manipulate the market for their benefit. But every country against the USD is doing the same. Everybody wants their currency to be the strongest.

    Regarding the British Pound, the USD has never been stronger than the Pound. I think the closest it has ever came was in the 80s when the rate was about $1.05 for P1.00.

    Either way, the dollar is rising against every currency. Economic feedback regarding the month of October shows economic decline in the US. Most people accept this to be attributed to the hurricane disasters. Despite the recent declines, the dollar is on a steady rising trend against major currencies.
     
  21. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,383
    Aviso
    Acesso congelado
    O acesso ao website visitado esta congelado por medidas administrativas.
    Caso voc� seja o administrador do site por favor acesse o seu painel de auto-atendimento, preenchendo o seu dom�nio e senha no formul�rio abaixo.
    Digite o dom�nio:
    Digite a senha de FTP:

    I would need more clues to see your website. Above are the words that I saw at Darkvisitor.com




    That is the way I see it too, but we could be wrong about the thinking of China's decision makers. When I listen to US senators talk about how good free trade and outsourcing and immigration are for the USA I get the impression that they believe what they are saying. They can't believe that 1965 is really gone. Americans are the hardest working smartest most creative people and God loves us so if we just retrain everything will be fine and we can drive our SUVs to big houses wearing clothes made in China forever. I have had more time to think about economics than my Senator has. I don't have to sound smart and speak in Wall Street Journal Cliches so I am free to understand the obvious but my Senator is a slave to coventional wisdom. Why do we assume that Chinese leaders are clearer thinkers than my Senator?

    What do conservative wealthy brazilian businessmen think about the USA's future? Believing that everything will always be as it was is a more effective form of lazy delusionional thinking than believing every new theory that comes along. I think that people trained to be masters of capitalism might be blinded to the USA's predicament by a pro-USA bias because they love the USA because the USA has been the champion warrior and high priest of capitalism. China is communist (sort of) but it's financial advisors and money managers might have caught the blindess from their global peers.

    When the sky falls I want to own stock in an umbrella manufacturer. Any Ideas? I believe in putting my money where my mouth is. I bought mutual funds IFN and IIF that own Indian stocks three years ago and they have been very very good to me.

    I believe in corruption. When the California rigged markets and blackouts electricy crisis happened and drove our utility PG&E / PCG into bankruptcy I was quite confident that PG&E owned my state California's politicians and that they would not allow PG&E stock holders to get hurt even thow they deserved to get hurt and the only way to not hurt them would be to hurt the utility rate payers or the state tax payers. I bought PCG at $6 and sold at $18. I wish I bought more and sold later.

    I had a nice ride with Haliburton. When it changed from thinking Cheney would take care of asbestos to realizing I was a war profiteer my conscience got to me and I sold and missed more than half the ride. I want to cash in on any corruption or stupidity available as long as it is not quite as sleazy as being a war profiteer.

    There is another angle that I don't know how to play. Can Bush and congress take us so deeply into debt without a plan how we will get out? Maybe they could if they are extremely irresponsible or have a very bad case of blindness disease and think 1950 to 1965 will last forever. But If you like I refuse to believe they are that blind we have to believe their plan is to start printing our way out of debt as soon as the Chinese stop lending.

    Many of these people were connected with the people who ripped off the Savings and loans so I would guess that their circle will use their connections and good credit to take out massive loans prior to the big dollar printing festival in order to buy something that will keep pace with inflation and won't be very much affected by a great depression.

    Everybody knows about gold so gold is not the answer. I don't no if this investment needs to be five years from now or thirty years from now. I suppose I should get lines of credit in place backed by my real estate so that I can move fast when the time comes. But what do I buy? I could buy any options to buy commodities or stocks at a fixed price. I would like expiration dates on the contract of ten or fifteen years into the future which might be abnormally long could be a problem for me to find. Something like wheat options would not lose value with a great depression.

    In the last great deppression had deflation not inflation in the USA but in Germany where they were printing money they had inflation. What do you buy with borrowed money on short notice at the begining of a ten year global great depression with massive inflation in dollars but perhaps defalation in some other currencies?



    For at least the next ten years China can not send the USA into a deppression by dumping dollars without sending themself and the rest of the world into a depression as well. Brazil may get off easier than most of the world from the depression that would follow if China dumped dollars but Brazil also would get hammered when global trade patterns break down.

    I am not so worried about $20 gas. It would change how we behave but it would not shut us down directly. Except for the working poor gas is not that big of a share of expenses so if you increased it tenfold you would not break budgets. The multiplier effect of expensive gas scares me more. Take the extra gas money out of the family budget and they reduce spending somewhere else so people where they stopped spending to save for gas get laid off and stop spending so more people get laid off and stop spending so more people....... and so on.

    But if gas went up adjustments would be made. High rises would be built in the cities and some houses would be abandonned in the outer suburbs. Buses and bicycles would be used more and heart disease would go down because Americans would not be so fat.

    I concerned about more jobs being outsourced not because of high gas but because I know that half the jobs we have left are not here because it makes economic sense for them to be here but they are here because nobody has had time to get arround to creating the network needed to outsource them.

    I lived in India one year. My sister lives there half of every year. I have thought of so many businesses that I could create by sending work over the internet to India. Indians monitoring American security cameras is one idea.
     
  22. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    That is exactly what I am working on. I found a company that can do that, but we need a large pipe like 100MBS or something like that. I am working on a cost estimate and what I can charge...we shall see....
     
  23. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,383
    We went over this on a thread started by a poster named BeHereNow. I was thinking Ram Das but the poster was talking just like David Icke.

    http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=46259&page=1

    Icke is a little confused. BeHereNow was confused so I posted this:

    From another Wikipedia article:
    An example of the creation of new money
    The following steps describe one way that new money can be created. It is an example from the US.

    1. The government prints a treasury bond. This is simply an IOU, a promise to pay the holder a specified sum of money on a particular date. In this example, let’s say the government issues $1,000,000 worth of bonds. Individual investors, pension funds, mutual funds, insurance agencies, banks, foreign government central banks, can all buy the bonds, effectively loaning money to the federal reserve. They do this to invest their money and receive interest in return.
    2. The Federal Reserve prints a check, in the amount of $1,000,000 and makes it payable to the government. This check is the proceeds from the sale of the bonds.
    3. The $1,000,000 is recorded as an asset by the Fed. (money owed to the central bank is called an "asset" by the bank) It is assumed the government, with its power to tax, will make good on its debt (this is why the people buying the bonds from the fed consider it a risk free investment). The government deposits the check in its own account.
    4. The government hires employees and buys things with the $1,000,000, and it does so by writing government checks. These government checks are then deposited in commercial banks. For the sake of simplicity, assume it all goes into one commercial bank, which has a zero balance to begin with.
    5. The commercial bank now claims $1,000,000 in new liabilities (the amount on deposit in a bank is called a "liability" by the bank, because the bank has to pay interest to it, amongst other things). In the US, the law allows the bank to loan out 90% of what it has on deposit. This loaning of money that it has on deposit is the precise point new money is created, because the depositor still has his money, and the person getting the loan now has money too.
    6. $900,000 is loaned out on Friday for someone to buy a house. This loan is in the form of a check. The home buyer signs the check and gives it to the seller, who deposits it right back into the bank on Monday. Note however, in real life that money would only come from the bank temporarily, who then would issue its own bonds or use a company like Fannie Mae to issue its own bonds, so that again investors can actually lend the money while the bank is simply a middleman, called a "servicer".
    7. The commercial bank now claims $900,000 in new liabilities. 10 percent of that money is put into a reserves, and 90% of that, or $810,000 is loaned out. As soon as the $810,000 is deposited back into the bank, the cycle repeats and repeats until there is no more money to lend.
    8. The total amount lent out to borrowers is $9,000,000. Add that to the $1,000,000 that it still has on deposit and the total is $10,000,000. Commercial banks make profit by charging fees for transactions, and by charging a higher interest rate to those they lend to, than what they pay for the funds. If the commercial bank charges 6% interest on the $9,000,000 it will earn $540,000 per year. If the bank making the loan pays 1% interest to the person who put the money on deposit in the first place it will cost them $90,000 per year. With 90% of that money lent out, if the originally depositor wants their money back, the bank has to borrow that money from another bank (or maybe from another source), at rate of interest set by the government (the overnight rate, or the federal funds rate in the US). This is called "asset-liability bouncing", and is a delicate balancing act all banks must work on every day.
    ........................................................................................................

    This is misleading.

    Icke should have explained what he meant if he knew what he meant. Since he talks about the US Federal reserve below and I know nothing about British banks I will write as if he was talking about American banks. I would think the British would have a similar banking system to the American one.

    The way the bank lends out the same money 10 times is the bank loans the money to A who gives it to B who deposits it in the bank which then lends it to C who gives it to D who deposits it in the bank. The governments reserve requirement stops this from going on for ever by making the bank hold back a share each time the recieve a deposit.

    Now if I repeatedly lend out money for interest I may be in violation of acting like a bank without being a bank rule but "Icke says I only get to loan the money one time, unfair" Icke is wrong, I am not a bank and I have no reserve requirement placed on me. If I only lend to people who give the money to people who deposit their money back with me, then I can lend the money infinite times.

    It is not a trick.
    The bank does not have the money that they lent out. The bank can give everybody checks if there is a run on one bank. You take your check and deposit it in another bank and the bank you took the money from must borrow the money from the bank you deposited the check with. So what. If everybody wants to put cash under their mattress then their is a problem. Bank will have to give you part ownership of their loans and tell you to collect from the borrower. But we have FDIC insurance so only a huge crises can topple the banking system. There is no villain in this story.

    A borrowed and gave to B who deposited and "You" C borrowed and gave to D who deposited and E borrowed. This is like a chain letter managed by the bank. Now if you decide you don't want to pay back the bank for the money you borrowed to buy stuff from D Who will give B back his money when he wants to buy stuff? Icke, you are full of shit that loan was very much existent and the bank is doing gods work even if they have the devils motives.

    No, the reserve requirement controls how much money is in circulaion.


    And you do? [/QUOTE] will tell you that boom and bust is part of some natural 'economic cycle'. What claptrap. It is systematic manipulation by the Brotherhood to steal the real wealth of the world.[/QUOTE] This kind of stuff gives conspiracy theorists a bad name because it is too weak.

    No secret societies needed. The business cycle is real and would have popped the boom any way. Maybe the fed cares to much about the rich and inflation and not enough about the poor and unemployment but using monetary policy to smooth out business cycles is good for all of us. Dear mr Fed don't be scared, Pop that bubble if you see it and fill up that vacume (anti-bubble) if you see that.

    In America it's chicken scratch. We are paying the owners of the Fed more money than they deserve but it is an insignificant ammount in the over all federal budget. Let's screw with Haliburton's no bid contracts first and lets find the money that has disapeered from HUD and DOD before we worry about overpaying the Fed owners.

    The Word bank/ Swiss bank accounts for every dictator program was a disgrace. A Dam for every nation a new Bechtel contract for every quarter was part of that World bank disgrace. Controling nations through debt that never benefited the people was disgusting. Go Wolfowitz show us that the WorldBank can still be a force for evil even though some of us now understand the game.

    Still this has very little to do with the AmericanBanking system even though some big american banks participated in the World Banks and the IMFs dirty tricks.

    Wrong, wrong, half right , wrong and wrong.

    Wrong

    Wrong wrong, read the third to last post on the sciforums thread I linked to.

    Well kmguru, you have pasted better stuff. It's good to regularly debunk the Fed, Rothschild, Bank nonsense conspiracy theories to create space for more plausible conspiracy theories.

    Nope, no connection to trade deficit there.
     

Share This Page