According to the Bible, it seems pretty clear that heaven is comprised of some kind of government. There is an order of power in heaven.


St. Gregory the Great's idea of the Hierarchy of Heaven:

1) Angels
2) Archangels
3) Virtues
4) Powers
5) Principalities
6) Dominations
7) Throne
8) Cherubim
9) Seraphim

St. Thomas (Summa Theologica I:108), following St. Denis (De Coelesti Hierarchia, vi, vii), divides the angels into three hierarchies each of which contains three orders:

Hierarchy 1: Seraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones
Hierarchy 2: Dominations, Virtues, and Powers
Hierarchy 3: the Principalities, Archangels, and Angels

The only Scriptural names furnished of individual angels are Raphael, Michael, and Gabriel.

The above information was attained from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm

__________________________________________________ ______________


My questions are:

1) Where do God, Jesus, and The Holy Gost fit into this hierarchy?
2) What do humans become when we die, and where are we on the hierarchy of heaven when we die? Do humans have the ability to turn into, say, Principalities?
3) How does this hierarchy relate to the 2nd coming as described in Revelation?

Thoughts anyone?

Did St. Gregory have any evidence for his assertions? I supose not! so he was just inventing shit, as every other theist has throughout all time;)

Where do God, Jesus, and The Holy Gost fit into this hierarchy?


They don't exist! No evidence has ever, ever been presented that these entities exist, existed, or shall exist when one dies!

What do humans become when we die, and where are we on the hierarchy of heaven when we die?

Eaten bones, ashes if burned!

How does this hierarchy relate to the 2nd coming as described in Revelation?



Keep waiting, as done by generations of deluded believers!

http://campus.fortunecity.com/defiant/666/coming2.html

Heaven as described in the bible, is a cubicle;
http://www.nobeliefs.com/heaven.htm

1. God is the Lord of the universe according to Christianity.

2. Humans and angels are two types of creatures. One does not turn into the other.

3. The heirarchy is not related to the Second Coming.

This heirarchy of heavenly beings is related to the system of government the writers of the bible intended people to follow, namely a monarchy.

Under the teaching of Jesus, we should be a democracy or self governing anarchy.

According to the Bible, it seems pretty clear that heaven is comprised of some kind of government. There is an order of power in heaven.


St. Gregory the Great's idea of the Hierarchy of Heaven:

1) Angels
2) Archangels
3) Virtues
4) Powers
5) Principalities
6) Dominations
7) Throne
8) Cherubim
9) Seraphim

St. Thomas (Summa Theologica I:108), following St. Denis (De Coelesti Hierarchia, vi, vii), divides the angels into three hierarchies each of which contains three orders:

Hierarchy 1: Seraphim, Cherubim, and Thrones
Hierarchy 2: Dominations, Virtues, and Powers
Hierarchy 3: the Principalities, Archangels, and Angels

The only Scriptural names furnished of individual angels are Raphael, Michael, and Gabriel.

The above information was attained from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm

__________________________________________________ ______________


My questions are:

1) Where do God, Jesus, and The Holy Gost fit into this hierarchy?
2) What do humans become when we die, and where are we on the hierarchy of heaven when we die? Do humans have the ability to turn into, say, Principalities?
3) How does this hierarchy relate to the 2nd coming as described in Revelation?

Thoughts anyone?

1) I would not trust the findings of Gregory, at best it is speculation. But God/Jesus/Holy Spirit is above all others in Heaven.

2) We become Children of God. We rise above all angels in fact we will judge angels.

1 Corinthians 6
3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

3) It will change when Jesus returns. Those who are true followers of the Messiah Jesus will be raised from the dead at His coming and will inherit their eternal bodies and therefore will be above angels in the hierarchy. But once again i do not trust in the findings of Gregory. What will be will be.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Interesting verse Adstar. So then humans will be above angels in the hierarchy (on condition that they accepted Jesus).


Rev 22:1-2
22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
KJV

When John refers to the healing of the nations, does this imply that the nations currently existing will be intact, but will be repaired or healed?

3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
I thought that meant just Him and the disciples.

St. Gregory the Great's idea of the Hierarchy of Heaven:

1) Angels
2) Archangels
3) Virtues
4) Powers
5) Principalities
6) Dominations
7) Throne
8) Cherubim
9) Seraphim
It's slightly misleading here - you haven't made it clear that Angels are the lowest and even Archangels are the second-to-lowest (so much for Gabriel being God's bezzer mate). The Cherubim and Seraphim attend on God Himself, and in addition to being unable to stand God's countenance, nobody can stand up to seeing the C and S in the face either.

Angelogy also has a rich history in Western and Jewish Occultism.

The Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram, derived from Qabbalah, invokes the powers of Michael, Raphel, Ariel, and Uriel.

It's slightly misleading here - you haven't made it clear that Angels are the lowest and even Archangels are the second-to-lowest (so much for Gabriel being God's bezzer mate). The Cherubim and Seraphim attend on God Himself, and in addition to being unable to stand God's countenance, nobody can stand up to seeing the C and S in the face either.


I just looked on that website I posted above. I probably got them backwards. Sorry about that.

According to the Bible, it seems pretty clear that heaven is comprised of some kind of government. There is an order of power in heaven.

Thoughts anyone?

there is no heaven.

there is no heaven.
Proof?

Proof?

There is no proof that Heaven exists.

There is no proof that Heaven exists.
I agree, but is there proof it doesn't?

That it is perhaps impossible for such a thing to exist?

I agree, but is there proof it doesn't?

That it is perhaps impossible for such a thing to exist?

when it comes to lack of proof as proof of something not existing...A belief in something is what drives me. Do I want this heaven to exist, do I want to believe in heaven? No. Because heaven would mean there are no challenges in life...no hardships to overcome...no change whatsoever. Life for me is heaven and hell at the same time. I only want life to exist...I dont want to believe in heaven or hell...they do not have proof of existence and I do not want to believe in them.

The onus of evidence is on the shoulders of those making the claims, such nether supernatural existence actually exist. It's not the concern of "non-belivers" to provide evidence for that which they don't believe to exist, it's for the claimant to provide evidence that it does. BTW an ancient text writen by nomadic schizophrenic dessert dwelers is not evidence of the existence of heaven or hell!;)

Heaven and hell are tools, to manipulate the ignorant masses, do as we say, obey our laws and you be rewarded after death in a place of bliss "heaven".

Do the opposite, don't believe our gods, our laws, etc.. and you will be punished in a place of damnation for eternity "hell"

Truly most ignorant people, want to avoid this hell, and do what they deem as right and proper by the laws of theist, to make it to heaven.

Nothing but tools of manipulation this heaven and hell bs rhetorical crap! :rolleyes:

The onus of evidence is on the shoulders of those making the claims, such nether supernatural existence actually exist. It's not the concern of "non-belivers" to provide evidence for that which they don't believe to exist, it's for the claimant to provide evidence that it does. BTW an ancient text writen by nomadic schizophrenic dessert dwelers is not evidence of the existence of heaven or hell!;)

Heaven and hell are tools, to manipulate the ignorant masses, do as we say, obey our laws and you be rewarded after death in a place of bliss "heaven".

Do the opposite, don't believe our gods, our laws, etc.. and you will be punished in a place of damnation for eternity "hell"

Truly most ignorant people, want to avoid this hell, and do what they deem as right and proper by the laws of theist, to make it to heaven.

Nothing but tools of manipulation this heaven and hell bs rhetorical crap! :rolleyes:

I second that.

Godless:

Completelyyy off topic and not condusive to the discussion at hand.

No need to evangelize.

You're wrong. It was spot on with the discussion. Several posts prior to that one began the question of "proof" with regard to "heaven."

I do find the mention of all the gods of Christianity to be interesting. Christianity appears to be nothing more than polytheism in the disguise of monotheism. Indeed, the deity called Satan or the devil has all the alleged qualities of a god: omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, etc. This god exists very prominently in the Christian pantheon.

Satan is a created being.

Interesting verse Adstar. So then humans will be above angels in the hierarchy (on condition that they accepted Jesus).


Rev 22:1-2
22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
KJV

When John refers to the healing of the nations, does this imply that the nations currently existing will be intact, but will be repaired or healed?

People from all nations (races) have accepted Jesus and Messiah. Therefore while all nations/races will be represented in the number of the Children of God that does not mean that the people of the nations that rejected Jesus as Messiah will be preserved. So when John is referring to the nations he is not referring to all the people who ever existed from the nations but the portion of people from all nations who did not reject the Messiah Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I thought that meant just Him and the disciples.



The letter was from Paul to the Corinthian believers, from the surrounding scriptures it is clear that he was referring to them. He was admonishing them for taking their disputed to the courts of the worldly authority.

1 Corinthians 6
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

The saints refer to all the body of Christ, not just the apostles. We see this in the opening greeting in the Letter:

1 Corinthians 1
1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

So the letter was to the saints. He was admonishing the saints at Corinth.

All who believe Jesus are saints.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Satan is a created being.

And your evidence is....? Never mind, it was a rhetorical question. I realize that you base your entire belief system on biblical mythology. Gods are human constructs to which humans perceive the need to appeal to or appease. And the Christian religion, which pretends to be monotheistic has an entire pantheon of gods.

As I said, Satan and each of the above mentioned deities are all a part of the Christian pantheon. Just think of all the people that pray to specific saints. I bet Mary has as many direct appeals to her divinity than even Yahweh.

Just correcting your bad theology.

Praying to dead people is wrong, you can't even contact 'em anyway.

Just correcting your bad theology.

Praying to dead people is wrong, you can't even contact 'em anyway.

I have no "theology." But I agree with your sentiment about praying to dead people. I just take it further and don't bother with it at all.

I have no "theology." But I agree with your sentiment about praying to dead people. I just take it further and don't bother with it at all.

*******U******
M*W: How can "dead people" help you?

Watch Medium or Ghost Whisperer to find out.

(I need help.... I'm addicted to both these programmes...! :o)

The only Scriptural names furnished of individual angels are Raphael, Michael, and Gabriel.

The above information was attained from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm

__________________________________________________ ______________


My questions are:

1) Where do God, Jesus, and The Holy Gost fit into this hierarchy?
2) What do humans become when we die, and where are we on the hierarchy of heaven when we die? Do humans have the ability to turn into, say, Principalities?
3) How does this hierarchy relate to the 2nd coming as described in Revelation?

Thoughts anyone?

There is no reference to Raphael in the Old or New Testament. The only angels listed by name are: Michael, Gabriel and of course Lucifer (or Satan as he is later referred to).

Scripturally it is clear that until his fall, Lucifer was the chief and thereafter that position is held by Michael. Gabriel is used for imparting very important news to humans such as to Zachariah, the father of John the Baptist and of course to Mary. Gabriel says to Zachariah, "I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God...' This would appear to make him a very important character.

Beyond that the heirarchy of angels is simply conjecture and the one you refer to is simply one of many different ones.

None of this is important to the message of scripture.

God is He who was, is and ever shall be, the Lord of all. There is none else who always was and always will be.

Angels are created spiritual beings. People are created physical beings.

There are indications that people have a status greater than angels (as have been quoted elsewhere). The fact that God came to live as a human certainly shows the great love of God for people but I think that too much concentration on the idea of people being of higher status than angels could be most unhelpful if not distracting.

When we die and are resurrected, we are resurrected with spiritual bodies. Exactly what that means (other than they are not physical) is not clear and again can only be conjectural. It is not important. It is with whom we are that is important not what we are like!

None of this has anything to do with the second coming except where certain characters are specifically mentioned such as Michael and Satan.

From a scriptural point of view and of relevance to people in the present, is that Satan is only an angel (a created being). Power wise he can therefore only be on a par with angels. There is no contest between God and Satan. God is outside of Satan's league and everything must take place in accordance with God's ultimate plan. Satan is a bit like Hitler in the last days in the Bunker. He can continue to do his worst for a limited time but he cannot win. He just does not have the power.


Regards,



Gordon.

There is no reference to Raphael in the Old or New Testament. The only angels listed by name are: Michael, Gabriel and of course Lucifer (or Satan as he is later referred to).

I got the information about Raphael from newadvent.com. Feel free to contact them about it.

Scripturally it is clear that until his fall, Lucifer was the chief and thereafter that position is held by Michael.

Actually, nothing is clear about Lucifer in the scriptures. At no point in the bible is Lucifer said to be chief.

Gabriel is used for imparting very important news to humans such as to Zachariah, the father of John the Baptist and of course to Mary. Gabriel says to Zachariah, "I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God...' This would appear to make him a very important character.

The same Gabriel that appeared to Muhammad?

The fact that God came to live as a human certainly shows the great love of God for people.

Not God, his son Jesus. Jesus is a separate conscious entity from God.

When we die and are resurrected, we are resurrected with spiritual bodies.

Yes, spiritual bodies with no soul since the soul is the body.

From a scriptural point of view and of relevance to people in the present, is that Satan is only an angel (a created being). Power wise he can therefore only be on a par with angels. There is no contest between God and Satan. God is outside of Satan's league and everything must take place in accordance with God's ultimate plan. Satan is a bit like Hitler in the last days in the Bunker. He can continue to do his worst for a limited time but he cannot win. He just does not have the power.

Who's to say Michael or Gabriel won't turn on God as well. They have free wills like Lucifer, don't they?